Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Mizzy]

Holy hell,

who

what

did I replace? No wonder Destructor was so nice to me when he asked me to replace in; ugh.

I'm reading now, about half done.

[Mizzy]

Hi Mizzy. Long time no see...

I know, it's been what, like, 8 hours?

[Mizzy]

If someone is at -1L, can someone please unvote until I can finish reading? Thanks!

[Mizzy]

mod:

psst...Mizzy replaced MP

Oh hell, please ignore the stupidity.

Unvote

I'll finish reading today.

[Mizzy]

I'm about to be out of town for a bit (woot for an all-expenses-paid trip for a job interview) and will be only able to post little. I'll be back Saturday!

[Mizzy]

I agree that we should be giving Niv a chance to catch up and post a good bit. Please don't be goobers and lynch quickly when we have a chance for some real info.

I don't feel that Y's response was either opportunistic, or lame, for the books, and nor do I think Y was defending anyone.

[Mizzy]

jerubbaal

: No, of course we don't know why Sammich dropped out but the last time he posted AT ALL on the MafiaScum site was: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:26 pm. He has not replaced into or joined any other games, which could be an indication of RL getting in the way. My point is, here, that you cannot say one way or the other that he dropped out because he was scum. Townies drop out all the time, too. You know that.

I suppose I'm not coming from an unbiased view, either, because it sucks coming into a game when your predecessor screwed your role up so badly. I just want to give Niv some room to attempt to make his role here look less scummy. If he fails, then I will understand why he was lynched, but right now, I think we may have more information to be gained by waiting, if we can.

[Mizzy]

Doh. I tought I found interesting points about the dice incident. Can you be more specific on what you think about it? Is it completely useless? In your opinion, do you think Sammich rolled the dice in fact? Or do you think he lied?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care about the dice roll conversation, either. I think on a more experienced player, the conversation would have maybe meant something, but looking at Sammich's posting and his...well...ingame track record, it looks like he was just one taco short of a combination plate, if you know what I mean.

If dice rolls and whether or not they were really done one way or the other is the hot topic of your case for him, then I question whether or not the case is anything other than an opportunistic wagon. Maybe I'm not following properly, so please let me know if there's a bigger reason you guys suspect him.

[Mizzy]

I don't think you can have been following properly - have you not read XReyoX's post 440, which makes the case against Sammich up to that point in exhaustive detail under six different headings, and doesn't even cover the argument about his dropping out of the game? Mizzy, you've been in the game longer than Niv but we're really had nothing from you yet but advice not to rush to lynch Niv, and one sentence about Y. It's really hard to believe that anybody who was paying even minimal attention could have missed a post of the size and detail of XReyoX's 440, and I'm wondering if you're coasting by on the strength of comments by some players that they believe MP must have been innocent.

No, I definitely did read everything, but I was more asking Near and not you. Sorry.

I also have been on V/LA quite a bit recently and am readying myself for labor in the near future, so do forgive me if mafia is not quite the center of my focus for the moment.

I just went on maternity leave (3 weeks late) and will have time to catch up a little more fully in the next few days.

[Mizzy]

Ripley:

Firstly, do you always over-react so much? Secondly, to be 100% accurate, I was addressing Near and Niv with the "you guys." Mostly their posts 486 and 487.

When I replaced in, I made the mod aware that I am due to have a baby IRL very, very soon and that my contribution may not be up to snuff until after my return from the hospital. So, you can deal with what I can offer the game, or you can...actually, all you can really do is deal with it.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I know you're pregnant and due soon, but do you think you'll have a game summary for us sometime soon? Deadline's on the 11th, and I'd like to wrap up my final thoughts after receiving some input from you.

Well, honestly, it seems like it's coming down to whether we lynch Niv or Near. It doesn't matter much, or doesn't seem to, if I think someone else should be lynched, because the vote would pretty much be wasted.

I'm on leave now, but getting my major doctor appointments out of the way, so in a day or so, I'll be able to really hash out how I feel and why, but for now, suffice it to say that I am not fully comfortable with either a Near or Niv lynch. Which is why I haven't voted yet.

[Mizzy]

I do not totally agree with giving Mizzy a free pass just cause of Mafiaplayer's Townsperson confirmation way back in the first few pages , so wanted to know what she felt.

You could have just

asked

me, you know.

Warning, you are about to be textwalled.

I really don't like his vote of yours, ooba, and I don't like that you have given so little content before voting, just utilizing your predecessor's words as given without adding anything to them. I may not have done such a good job so far, but at least I haven't put anyone at -1L while using someone else's post as justification. Let me go through the points of that post and say why I don't like the case:

He voted himself, twice. The first one, I take it as a joke vote, regardless of whether he has rolled his dice or not. He might have lie, which I believe so, but that is not the point. His self-vote at the beginning shows nothing. His second vote #200 is an appeal to pity. Non-productive. Not a major scumtell but I can see that as something that is only-beneficial to the scums.

Firstly, I hate all the talk about "lying about a dice roll." Who cares? Townies lie all the time, just as much as scum do. I think the question as to whether or not he did roll the dice is a mechanism for an opportunistic wagon.

Secondly, his second self-vote I don't feel is an appeal to pity but a sarcastic gesture meant to point out the foolishness in XReyoX's worrying about whether or not he ACTUALLY rolled the dice.

Self-voting is NOT just something that benefits scum, but can serve as a sarcastic and sometimes drastic means of daring others to vote for them too, which townies are shown to do when under pressure sometimes. It's a null-tell, at best.

This is the only view on other people amongst all his posts. He is even wishy washying his FoS. I feel that it can be flipped both ways depending on how it goes.

I think we can all agree, at this point, that Sammich was not the best player in the game. I can understand wanting him to give more scumhunting content, but the lack of scumhunting is not always a scumtell.

Firstly, he couldn’t have been called a townie in his role pm. Secondly, it wasn’t the right time. Thridly, he hasn’t got a right reason to do so, imo. He can believe Mafiaplayer is a townie for many other reasons, but “because he is a townie too” seems weird. And claiming at that point can only cause damage to the town. Saying he has deleted his PM, thus not getting the rolename right, seems very convenient as ripley has pointed out, plus he can remember when he did it as well.

Firstly, the use of semantics-bending here bothers me. Okay, so, Sammich said he got called a townie. So? He wasn't a total noob, so one

could

assume that he understood that the role "Townsperson" = townie. I don't see how his lack of calling it "Townsperson" helps the case against him.

As for right time, I can kind of see that argument, I suppose, except it doesn't really help or hurt the case against him one way or the other, as I see it. People post late all time time, whether from having missed posts or having been sidetracked, or whatever. Timing in these games is seldom everything.

As for the stupid, bullshit claims going on, I agree. They don't help town, and in fact, they HURT town, because it narrows down NK choices for the scum. I don't, however, see how claiming makes anyone scummy. We all hint, at the very least, at our alignment, and while if I had been here, I'd have jumped down his throat for claiming at all, I'd have done it as a teaching tool, not as an accusatory statement.

I don't delete my role PMs until the games are over, so I can't speak on that, but I know a LOT of people delete their role PMs. Okay, so it was "convenient" but still...it's an unprovable, circumstantial case-point at best.

It wasn’t impossible, but is very highly unlikely. The list is disjointed. He remembered what he has rolled, who was on which dice, which side the coin came up with. Every single step, every single detail was described, like a cam recorder was there. Provided that it was 11 days after the event, I think it is unlikely. I believe he is using misleading vividness to convince us that he rolled the dice as I’ve pointed out before. While on the same posts with his diceroll, he said “Believe this story or not, there's not enough proof I rigged it.”, he is using both burden of proof and negative proof in the same sentence to persuade us. The next, he said “Anybody can simply go offline and fabricate a story like this but who would really vote for themselves anyway?”. To me, he is using appeal to ridicule to further reinforce his case.
#203“If its a joke vote, admit that it's a joke vote. Don't try do make something up later on in the game so that you seem innocent…” I asked. “Fine it was a joke vote.” Sammich answered. This post, to me, looks like he has given up his story and admitted that he was making things up. If he, indeed, rolled the dice, it is more natural for him to stand by his story and said it was a dicevote. Imat think that this post is a joke itself. I’ll discuss below.

Oh for heaven's sake, not THIS again. So what if he maybe (unprovably) lied about a friggin dice roll? The fact that this keeps coming up makes me want to chew nails. It's an EXCUSE to put suspicion on someone. Use evidence that can be proven to make your cases, folks, not some bullshit assumptions and anal nit-picking. My random votes in the random stage aren't purely random; of course not. But as for having all the tools around and ready for a random IRL roll? I have a bowl of dice on my desk and a stack of assorted coins. I also have several versions of the list of players at my handy one-click disposal in the form of vote counts, player listings, etc. So yes, it is possible he could have done it randomly, but even if he didn't, who cares?

There is no doubt Sammich was evading questions, not only mine, but many else as well. Other than the description of his diceroll, everything else was not clear. An example would be his claim for his vote being a jokevote. Most people didn’t pick up the exact meaning of his post, thus causing again a lot of confusion. After people had started questioning him about his vote again (which is an indication of our uncertainty), it seems to me that he decided to stick with his story again. This is what I feel.
He did not answer the questions addressed to him properly. And no, “Yes, yes, no, short term memory, facepalm” are not satisfactory answers to me. Refusing to answer questions openly is not something I’d considered protown either. ->Near, “Why the heck isn't Sammich answering my questions? Why is he not answering anyone else's questions?”. Sammich, “Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?”

Question evasion is something that does bother me, but I can also tell from Sammich's posting that he wasn't really paying all that much attention. I can see this as a case-point against him, but not a huge one, because he wasn't, well, all there? I was hoping we would see better from his replacement, but we really haven't. I don't think that's necessarily indicative of scum, though, because it could be indicative of feeling like you're fighting a losing battle, regardless of what side you are on. I don't like his answers either, but again, townies can be just as stupid in that respect as scum are.

This, I believe, is the main reason I’m suspecting sammich at the moment. Firstly, I’ve never played in a game with a night start before and I don’t see how it is different from other games with a day start. I fail to see why sammich is so excited or overwhelmed by this.

It's actually very different, because those who have night actions often times (but not ALL the time) get to use them. Forgive me for this, I'm not a fan of bringing up power roles but I think it needs to be said...An eagerness to get to night or to start in night is not always a scumtell and can sometimes be a power role-tell. For that reason, lynching someone who has shown a harmless eagerness for night phase is not always a good idea until you have a clear picture of who they might be buddied with if scum, and if you are sure they are not or cannot be a power role. If you don't believe that he is a vanilla townie, you must also consider that he is pro-town, regardless. Just a small point to keep in mind for later.

Avoiding his questions, not contributing, potential lying, the night start comment, roleclaiming and vouching for mafiaplayer, etc…I mean, if he is a target of the scum, he would have been lynched by now I believe. Two votes were what he had got once. I just don’t feel right about this. Perhaps everyone can see through this better than I do. Perhaps I’m too focused and taking those posts the wrong way. There seems to be some apparent reasons I’m missing.

Well, firstly, only one of the list he gives here is an actual case-point and the rest is all circumstantial. I'm just not comfortable with how easily this whole thing ramped up on him, and I am NOT happy that Niv has not done a better job at being a replacement for him. I know Niv can't answer for Sammich, but he could have tried harder.

Conclusion:

I could easily be wrong about Sammich, but he comes off as VI more than scum to me from his posting. If he comes up scum, awesome, I was terribly wrong about him...but if he comes up town, I HIGHLY suggest we look at XReyoX and his replacement come D2.

I just wanted you all to know why I don't like the Sammich wagon. I don't like cases that feel empty to me. Granted, I read everything after it had happened, but still...I just don't feel comfortable with the lynch. There are a couple points that I can agree with on it, but on the whole, I just don't think there's enough for a full out lynch.

[Mizzy]

The fact that Y is trying hard to get on any bandwagon that would help Sammich's case reinforces our theory that Sammich is indeed a scum.

^Translation: I don't want Sammich's case helped because then I might get lynched, instead.

[Mizzy]

Well after the re-read i belived sammich was the best lynch for today. I do have other thoughts on where i find each player on the scumminess meter but posting such a list will only help the scum now.

You believe Sammich is a VI due to his play , please read his posts this game - he acts like an idiot (and is scum at the end) :
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

So, after my entire post where I ripped your excuse for putting Niv at -1L apart, this is the only thing you can come up with? ONE meta-game?

[Mizzy]

Well most of your arguments view his play as 'Could be Village Idiot - you can't really accuse him with that' type statements.

Which is exactly why the case against him bothers me. Maybe you guys are right and he is scum, but I just don't feel it. I've been wrong before, but this just feels opportunistic to me.

I remembered the open game which i played with him - hence the link ..

Still, one game, just one, doesn't show much. That's why I personally disapprove of meta.

And please do not water down the argument - At some points of the game , it was very clear he was there and did not respond to a lot of questions. He only flaked out in the end ..

The case on him is already watered down. Whether or not someone posts a bunch does not mean that they are "all there."

Like I said, I agree that his question-dodging did in fact suck, but as for "flaking out" he hasn't posted on the entire website since the 17th. That points more to RL causing him to vanish than his alignment in one game.

And regarding the dice roll , sometimes when people are caught lying , they blurt out another lie without even thinking about it, and then more and more lies follow? I couldn't care less if he actually did the dice roll or not , the fact that he invented a big implausible story and stuck to it makes me think he has something to hide ..

I can understand that, but at the same time, you can't prove that he did lie. It's all assumptions and circumstantial. Townies pull stupid shit all the time.

All I'm saying is that I am not voting for him because I don't feel comfortable doing so and I don't like how other people are being so opportunistic about the wagon. If he turns up scum, great, but if not, some other people are going to have some explaining to do.

[Mizzy]

Can we get an unvote please?

[Mizzy]

Maybe I didn't make myself perfectly clear before, so here it is again:

I AM NOT IN SUPPORT OF A NIV OR NEAR LYNCH AT THIS TIME.

[Mizzy]

I just wanted to be clear as crystal that unless someone unvoted and re-voted, Near wasn't in danger.

[Mizzy]

Maybe I am blind, but what mistake?

[Mizzy]

Near:

Is English your first language?

[Mizzy]

I think that the "mistake" is a null-tell at best because as you can tell from Near's posting, his first language isn't English and that could account for the small discrepancy. I believe the claim. In fact, we have no reason to NOT believe the claim other than wanting someone dead.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, English isn't my first language too. So?

I was asking to make sure for myself, too, because of his odd choice of grammar here and there. I like knowing these things. Your grammar is pretty fluent with classic English slang, so I didn't ask you

[Mizzy]

I defended Sammich/Niv because I thought he might be the cop. Now that he claimed vanilla in a near lynch situation, I'll have to re-read him. Besides that, I still think you, Near, are scum.

Why on both counts?

And Near, I'm saying I believe your claim.

[Mizzy]

@Y:

Okay, now I understand a bit about why you thought Sammich may have been a power role.

About Near, I have seen him play a power role (I can't discuss the game much because it's still going, even though he is dead in it) and this is pretty similar to how he played there in my opinion. Without a counter claim, anyway, it's just not safe to lynch him at this point. Yeah, if he is scum then he might get away with a fake-claim, but if he actually IS a power role, that would be even worse, in my opinion. Our mod does like putting interesting flavor on things, so for all we know, his claim is totally legit.

I suppose my question is this: Are you comfortable with lynching an un-countered power-role claimer?

[Mizzy]

I'm not okay with a Niv or Near lynch, sorry folks. I know it puts things at a standstill, but it might give us more information because it means for a lynch, someone will have to unvote and switch wagons.

The top 2 people I would vote for are Ooba and Y, in that order (ooba for his opportunistic vote and lack of decent response to my reasoning why his and his predecessor's vote was stupid and Y because I don't like how sure he is about Near at this time and how adamant he is for a lynch of a power-claimed player.)

However, since ooba replaced someone who Near claims is "unloaded" and I believe Near's claim, I can't very well vote for him until we know for sure about Near. Either he's confirmed town or not depending.

Vote: Y

[Mizzy]

You would vote for ooba despite believing Near's claim, which says ooba is innocent?

No, or I would have voted for him. Had Near NOT cleared ooba, then I would have voted ooba.

[Mizzy]

will self lynch Before Deadline. I am of the camp tat any ynch is a good lynch

This is not good posting. Or good playing.

[Mizzy]

Niv:

Get off your butt and play the game please?

[Mizzy]

I do not like this late bandwagon on Y - I'd really like one of you guys to hammer Niv .

That was scummy as hell and if Near hadn't vouched for your scummy ass I'd be on you in an instant. You do not get your way just because you "don't like this late Y bandwagon."

I am not going to hammer Niv, ESPECIALLY after his little "Imma self-hammer" stunt.

[Mizzy]

Also, I think you're overlooking the fact that if Near

is

actually telling the truth about being a Gunsmith, his results don't always have to be 100% valid. The mod could have easily thrown in some investigation-immune Godfather or something along those lines to throw things off a little.

I'd like to add that there is always the sanity flag for investigative roles...

[Mizzy]

Also, I think you're overlooking the fact that if Near

is

actually telling the truth about being a Gunsmith, his results don't always have to be 100% valid. The mod could have easily thrown in some investigation-immune Godfather or something along those lines to throw things off a little.

I'd like to add that there is always the sanity flag for investigative roles...

In a mini game? I highly doubt that.

Mmm, good point, but you never know. Just something to keep in mind.

[Mizzy]

Near, why are you addressing me, specifically?

[Mizzy]

Near should not in any way be our lynch for today and I honestly feel like anyone who is still voting for him is wasting their vote and the town's time. You do not just go and lynch a claimed power role with no counter just because you would bet the farm he's scum...if you're wrong then you do the town harm. And you have NO WAY to prove that you are not wrong.

I know from having read Near's other games that he acts that way as town and he's gotten himself nearly-lynched as town that way before...he doesn't learn from his mistakes. That lends more proof, for myself, that his claim is probably valid.

At this point, I'd almost rather Niv DID self-destruct just so this talk of wanting a non-countered power role claimer to die would stop. If we're going to mislynch, then a vanilla role is better than a power role.

[Mizzy]

What happens otherwise, a no-lynch?

[Mizzy]

SHIT. I just saw that, took some digging because it's not in the rules on the front page.

I

really

don't want to hammer Niv...but no-lynch is much, much worse.

ARG.

Unvote. Vote: Niv

If I could drink right now, I would so have a shot.

[Mizzy]

He was already lynched, my vote made 6.

[Mizzy]

Oh- missed that there was a page after the vote count and threw out a hammer since my clock says the deadline is hitting.

Actually, you would have been 1 minute too late.

[Mizzy]

AT least his gun was "Loaded", and since we have lost a vigilante, I am pretty sure he's a scum. I won't say who it is just yet.

Okay, now this is plain bullshit. Why not say who it is? There is no reason I can think of to not share the information since you have it.

[Mizzy]

Dumbest. Plan. Ever.

QTF.

Near, you had better hope we don't have any lynch all liars advocates in this game.

[Mizzy]

Near, from his meta, seems to do silly stuff like this as town, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment, but damn, that was some really stupid play right there.

[Mizzy]

Near, from his meta, seems to do silly stuff like this as town, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment, but damn, that was some really stupid play right there.

Is there any meta available for Near as scum? I looked through his posting history and couldn't find any.

I couldn't either, but at least he's consistent in his other games. I'd still rather give him the benefit of the doubt...for the moment.

[Mizzy]

I still think Y can be a godfather.

To this I say, read the front page:

Aleard (NPC) - Mafia Godfather (Died pre-game)

[Mizzy]

I still think Y can be a godfather.

To this I say, read the front page:

Aleard (NPC) - Mafia Godfather (Died pre-game)

Interesting... So, Y is not a scum afterall...

Maybe if you had paid a little more attention to detail, Near, you would have known that already and could proceed accordingly.

[Mizzy]

I hate myself for this, but I still won't lynch Near.

I'll throw a

vote mizzy

out there for her seemingly over-the-top reactions to Near's ridiculousness.

That's kind of stupid, considering that if I was scum, I could have hammered the claimed cop yesterday.

[Mizzy]

And probably have been lynched for it today. So, not really thinking that was likely.

Not when so many others wanted him dead. Still, your vote is a bit stupid. Considering how I backed him yesterday, and how he's acting today, I think I have a right to get all up in his shit for being an idiot.

[Mizzy]

Incognito:

You make some good points but let me play the devil's advocate here for the moment.

a) The mafia may have a roleblocker who was AWOL during night phase.
b) There are lots of other scum roles, such as traitors or whatever.
c) They could have left him alive to invoke WIFOM.
d) There's a possibility of sanity flags, no?

Discuss!

[Mizzy]

Food for thought:

Perhaps they did not bother to roleblock Near because they figured he would investigate Y and scum would know if Y was innocent or not. If the cop was going to waste his investigation on an innocent, it would be in scum's interest to allow that to happen, because a) none of them would be found, b) it creates doubt as to the cop's legitimacy, and c) it might cause some hot townie-on-townie action. Which it could possibly be doing because we have this odd Y <--> Near dynamic thing going on.

[Mizzy]

I'm just trying to keep discussion going, is all.

One thing, guys, we have mislynched Niv, and no one has said diddly-squat about it. That bugs the crap out of me. Nothing to say, any of you?

[Mizzy]

3) FOS gorckat. He's a follower. Post 553 mimic's Y's opinion, then 651 jumps on a bandwagon.

Yes- two posts out of forty make me a follower.

553 was me weighing in on Near's claim.

651 was me agreeing that Near is scum, for reasons covered in Day 1, for the most part. And the first, and so far, only vote on the "bandwagon".

Actually, just to insert my two cents, I have gotten the feeling all game that you are either a follower or simply opportunistic. It's a gut feeling mostly, so I haven't said anything til now, and I don't base anything off gut when I can help it. But I definitely got the same feeling.

[Mizzy]

MOD:

I just went into labor, be back ASAP! It should only be 2-3 days. Wish me luck

[Mizzy]

I'm home, reading over what I missed ASAP!

[Mizzy]

Thanks

[Mizzy]

My problem with this is: why would Near, a power-role, expect to be "pretty easily lynched"? This post was made 11 days before the gunsmith claim, and it did make me wonder if these were the words of a scum who hadn't yet thought of a convincing roleclaim. I'd like to get Near's comments on this.

As we have run into in this game, just because someone is or claims to be a power role does not mean they are safe from the lynching noose. Claims can be argued, dismissed, ignored, and any number of unfavorable things, and as I have seen in other games, even someone who really is what they claim to be can be lynched anyway.

One of these situations must, surely, be true:

1. Near is a scum, and there is a real investigator.
2. Near is innocent, and, though inaccurate, the only investigator.
3. Near is innocent, and there is a second, probably also weakened, investigator.

There is also:
4. Near is innocent and he is accurate and the only investigator.

The fact that you left that one out kind of makes me raise an eyebrow because it makes me wonder if you know something the rest of us do not. It's just a feeling, mind you, but it does worry me.

[Mizzy]

I don't like the way Near clamped down on Sammich so long for "dicey" (pun intended) reasons- if he truly was a gunsmith, why wouldn't he have waited to look at him last night rather than push on the way he did, even as most of the town was pointing out his bad logic and unsupported assertions?

Toss in the test/there was no test, the results double-take on Reyo and the guilty/there was no guilty and his claim looks flat out fabricated to me.

No matter what our opinions on his scumminess/towniness is, I don't see a reason to dwell more than necessary on his claim because we have no cop/investigator death and no counterclaim. At the very least, he is not harming us, and we have a chance to scumhunt in more fruitful (less WIFOM) places, which we should take. We can always lynch him later if we find out that he is lying, but once he's dead, there is no getting him back. Better to be safe than sorry.

I'm not saying conversation on his claim should stop, but I think we are dwelling on it too much and not looking at other things enough.

[Mizzy]

Oh, right, this reminds me why I was voting Y before I had to vote someone else at deadline.

Vote: Y

[Mizzy]

So, mizzy, what's your take on the Near claim, then?

You know, I'm pretty sure I've already said, multiple times.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: Not clearly and not recently, actually.

Firstly, Near's claim was ages ago. I already voiced my stance on that, loudly and clearly. Secondly, why are you asking me now when you can go read what I already said? Does repeating myself really help anything or as you looking for a distraction?

[Mizzy]

gorckat:

Why didn't you just out and ask me that in the first place instead of beating around the bush? You'd have gotten a useful answer much faster.

Reasons for voting Y:

1) Pressure.
2) Possibility that Near is not sane.
3) Don't want to have my vote sitting nowhere.
4) No reason NOT to vote Y.

I believe that it is probable that:
1) That Near is at least pro-town.
2) That Near is at best a pro-town power role.
3) That there is no reason to lynch Near or talk much about his claims at this time.
4) That Y has posted some "interesting" things and I want to see if there is more information behind it.
5) That Y has a chance of being a second Godfather based on the idea (which is a plausible one) that someone posed about "The king is dead, long live the king!"
6) That there is currently no better place for my vote, in my opinion.

There, happy now?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I think lynching Y is an awful idea.

Well, thanks for that opinion, but I never said I wanted to lynch him, now did I?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I can assure you that asking me nicely, with or without a vote, you'll get your answers. I see no reason voting for some one that you don't want to lynch.

There really isn't a question for me to ask you, or I would have. Silly. And as for voting for someone you don't want to lynch, this is me kind of trying to break myself of my over-cautious habit. I have bad feelings about you, so I am expressing them. I don't intend to leave the vote on you, but I want it on the record that your actions have bothered me to the extreme and I would want you dead if it weren't for Near.

[Mizzy]

Lowell/Incognito scum pairing - discuss.

Will post my case in the evening..

I think I will wait for your case before I discuss, thanks very much.

[Mizzy]

gorckat:

1) I don't necessarily think he's scum but I really don't like his play and I'm wary of him.
2) Ooba annoys me but I don't think he's necessarily scum either.

If 1, then 2

must

be true. Near couldn't be pro-town and

not

a power role at this point, given his claim.

No, if 1 is true then 2 is

most likely

true but could be false. I've seen vanillas claim power roles before.

3 I disagree with, as I've been pushing. 4, if Y is scum, come out and say it.6, point out the scummy things he's done and make a case.

3) I don't care if you disagree with it.
4) I didn't say he's scum because I don't know yet. I want to see more things from him, as I said.
6) Follow your own advice

If you don't want to lynch him, then there are better places for your vote.

Not if I don't necessarily want anyone else lynched, either.

It is on record. Right there where you said it. No voting someone you don't want dead required.

I never denied it. I want more content from him, though, so the vote stays for now.

[Mizzy]

I want more content from him, though, so the vote stays for now.

What about Imat? You haven't even mentioned him once.

I honestly don't have much of a read on him yet, and he's kind of been lurk-tastic, hasn't he? I should re-read him.

[Mizzy]

Ok, why is there still no pressure on Lowell. Certainly everybody should be looked at, but honestly I can't see Lowell being Town the way he's played. What Ripley just said is Lowell's play summed up: He comes with firm pairings, provides little to no evidence, then agrees with whoever comes up with evidence for this. At least, thats what I saw happen with Gorckat. And the rest of his cases aren't explained at all, he just says he has this mystical read and never comes up with the evidence to back it up. Lowell deserves votes, unless of course he cares to explain ANY of the cases he has made. I've been reading carefully, not talking much (I never do), and yet still nothing comes of the excellent case against him. Just look back at his votes, you can't honestly tell me they look Pro-Town. His Posts are just about as bad as his votes, and they are fewer and further between than mine. I'll keep my vote on Lowell, thank you, until somebody claims Scum or a better case comes up, which is unlikely on both counts.

Imat, I'm looking back through your posts in this game and I can't seem to find a "here is my case on Lowell" post by you that includes quotes, examples, etc. Did I miss it or did you not make one?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I've been one of the most active player this game, and the main contributor to the Near case. You're getting more content from me all the time. If you want something specific to come up, ask for it, there's no point waiting until I accidentally talk about it. If there's nothing special you're looking for, try to use these fake accusations on some else. Thank you.

I'm watching your reactions, there's nothing I want to respond to specifically. Getting pissy with me isn't helping since you're not in any danger and I already said I'd move the vote. I'm just waiting for other responses from other players, though I think I know who I'll move it to.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy- that kind of "plan" is scummy because you could never get the reaction you were 'looking for' and no one could ever say otherwise. If you know you're going to vote for someone else, then this whole non-pursuit of Y is just noise to the signal.

You guys also have to remember that right now, my time to play is extremely limited so I do what I can when I can, and that seemed like the best thing at the time. I had planned on taking the vote off within a day RL time of placing it but I haven't had time to go back and do much looking.

[Mizzy]

When have I lurked?

I think he's referring to the need to have you prodded, no?

[Mizzy]

When have I lurked?

I think he's referring to the need to have you prodded, no?

I guess? That was like one prod though at a time that I wasn't posting anywhere on site. It just seems odd to say that

I've

been lurking when there's like three people in this game (Near included) who are on the brink of being replaced due to inactivity issues.

Yeah, I didn't say he was being smart about it We need him to post more, methinks.

[Mizzy]

Wow... That's the sixth replacement in a 12 people game...

I'm not sure about Lowell. As Ripley said, he seems to be careless, no matter the situation

We should really lynch scum today, or tomorrow might be LYLO.

Unvote, Vote ooba.

I don't like way he's playing. XReyoX gave me some bad vibes too.
I think he's a good candidate for the noose, and might give us some information about Near's claim.

Wait, so why is ooba a better noose-candidate than you for finding out about Near's claim?

[Mizzy]

I can see the desire to validate Near's claim, but what if he's telling the truth? Then good job, guys, we've lynched a confirmed town and helped the scum. I don't really like that line of thinking one bit. It feels opportunistic.

I feel like voting for Imat is silly at the moment because he's being replaced and we might get someone to actually play the role if we are patient.

I would like to put Lowell at -1L to get a claim from him and add some heat under his butt. Anyone have a problem with that before I do it?

Unvote.

[Mizzy]

Um, Near already investigated Y and he already came up innocent.

[Mizzy]

Um, Near already investigated Y and he already came up innocent.

I know. I don't really know how to answer this except to say I don't think you can have understood my post - which covers Near's result on Y -properly.

Perhaps I didn't but it seemed to be future-tense, not present-tense. That's why I posted what I did.

[Mizzy]

Yeah, I think you are misreading the post. Ripley can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the beginning portion of Ripley's post is discussing things from the first-person perspective of Y during Day 1 around the time of the Near claim if we assume that Y is actually scum with some kind of investigation immune ability. I think that's why the beginning portion of Ripley's post sounds like it's in the future tense, i.e. it's what a Y-scum may have been thinking when Near revealed himself to be a Gunsmith.

This makes much more sense...forgive me, I tend to be more tired lately than I am used to.

[Mizzy]

Well I'm going to put Lowell at -1L so we get a claim and maybe he'll pull his head out of the ground and say something. He hasn't done squat that's struck me as town and he's done a lot that seems scummy so I feel justified.

Vote: Lowell

[Mizzy]

Those wanting to vote someone Near has claimed to have investigated to 'test his claim' is ignoring that scum can say 'no gun', too.

How would that be? I'm making an assumption here, but I would think that any role capable of killing would show up as "loaded" or "has gun" or whatever. Is that not the

point

? And even the most basic mafia roles can kill.

[Mizzy]

I think what gorckat is saying is that if ooba were lynched and turned up innocent it would say nothing about Near's alignment since scum could, and almost certainly would, say this too.

Ah, I see. But yes, that's common sense, which is why I slammed Y for the idea of lynching one of the "confirmed" pair, because it doesn't tell us squat.

[Mizzy]

I think what gorckat is saying is that if ooba were lynched and turned up innocent it would say nothing about Near's alignment since scum could, and almost certainly would, say this too.

Ah, I see. But yes, that's common sense, which is why I slammed Y for the idea of lynching one of the "confirmed" pair, because it doesn't tell us squat.

Y's logic is all over the place. If he were really what he claims to be, ie an innocent cleared by Near, then he would already know that Near, if scum, gives "unloaded" results on innocents, or at least that he has done so once. Maybe he's forgotten he ought to know this - and it's much more likely that people would forget what they ought to know, when they aren't really what they say they are at all. Y has said nothing, by the way, to convince me that his logical action, if he disbelieves Near, is to lynch ooba, and again I wonder if his persistence in standing by this view arises from the lack of clarity of thought that you often see in scum who can't or don't have the ability to perceive how a situation should look to townie eyes.

Why do you think I still doubt his innocence even though I believe Near's claim? Y has far exceeding his scumminess quotient.

[Mizzy]

Sorry guys, I was away for a while; I'm back now.

I'm a vanilla townie.

[Mizzy]

I forgot Mizzy was MP, ergo already claimed. She's not jumping the gun. Ripley should claim whenever he gets on.

I figured since I was already outed, why not do it again? :3

[Mizzy]

How does me claiming vanilla townie make me scum? When I claim in a game, I always, and I mean ALWAYS claim "vanilla townie" if I

am

vanilla townie because that is much more information than "townsperson." Since my role had already been claimed in the beginning, I didn't feel the need to be perfect, or precise.

I'm a vanilla townie, meaning I am a townsperson with zero power. No day action besides voting, no night action, no items, no special one-shot anything. Take that as you will.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy didn't complain about the setup, but she immediately said I couldn't say that she was scum just because she claimed vanilla townie. She completely missed the point that I was saying that she was scum because she

has

to be scum, knowing what I know. You all just kind of went "<splutter> No!" when I posted the obvious conclusion, which you all should have reached as well, with very little thought.

Except that you're wrong. If you are completely blown away by the idea of me being scum then it's probably because I'm not scum. If there's no evidence, then there's no evidence, probably because you were right in the beginning and there's no evidence to find.

Blah, blah, using vanilla townie instead of townsperson is relevant in this scenario. It's actually very common to use phrasing cues from the PMs to decide whether people have the relevant knowledge or not.

Pre-planning this type of thing doesn't work. Especially since my role was already claimed at the beginning of the game. Instead of just spitting out the same information that my idiotic predecessor did, I gave

more

information. Now you know that there is absolutely nothing special about me; I was not recruited or promoted, I was not given an item, I was not involved in any night action at all, and I have no powers or insight beyond the posts in the thread what-so-ever.

For the record, despite jerubbaal's idiotic behavior and lack of clear thinking and logic, I don't think he's scum. I question his intelligence, but not his alignment. He seems to actually be trying to scumhunt, he's just doing it wrong.

[Mizzy]

Actually, I was pretty outspoken about Near's claim pretty soon after it happened and was adamantly against his lynch.

My instincts are telling me that a jerubbaal-scum wouldn't be so blatantly idiotic and pull so much of the spotlight onto himself, but that might be me wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, and while this isn't an excuse, please do keep in mind that I am running on 2-ish hours of sleep per 24 hours and I don't have time to do intricate re-reads and build cases like I am used to being able to do. My participation level is far, far below what it is normally.

If you guys want to lynch me, go for it, because I'm beginning to not care (I can't defend against the lack of a case against me) and the look on jerubbaal's face when I turn up town will be

priceless

.

[Mizzy]

Note the dramatic difference in posting volume now that the game is close. Now that Incog is feeling threatened, he's clearly feeling a need to justify himself at greater length. And the suggestion of a GF is still preposterous.

Then what about some sort of traitor role? Someone who is a townie but wins with the mafia. That is possible, yes?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: She appeals pretty strongly to emotion with her 'not caring/look on jerubbaal's face' bit. jerubbaal is back and forth her quite a bit, like he's testing the waters to figure out of he has to bus her or if he can get some action on either Ripley or Incognito (whichever one is town).

Or maybe I'd just think it would be really, really funny :3 I've said those kind of things a lot as town, so don't be so quick to think it's a scumtell.

[Mizzy]

I very much agree; when you have an uncountered investigation role of any kind, and you're the doc, you protect them. Your opinions can screw the game over if you happen to be wrong, and it's better safe than sorry for the town.

[Mizzy]

Right, cause scummy players have NEVER claimed cop before.

I didn't say they're guaranteed to be pro-town, but if you don't play it safe, then THIS happens, where they WERE telling the truth, and he was allowed to die because you were biased against him. I don't think you're stupid because of it, but your egotistical opinions got in the way of common sense there, I think, and now the cop is gone. Live and learn.

[Mizzy]

Mod:

Sorry, Gabe is sick and he's not sleeping much right now. Please consider me on V/LA until he's feeling better and I can actually function again. Feel free to replace me if you think it's needed.

[Mizzy]

Back, I think I need to do a skim re-read to see where we stand right now.

[Mizzy]

All of this pushing away from the idea of a GF is essentially scum being unwilling to bus Mizzy, who is has been essentially unquestioned all game because of MP's claim and her fairly strong play. But she

has

to be scum.

My role PM says you're completely and totally incorrect, which means your read on the set-up is also completely and totally incorrect. I know you can't take my word on it, but I'm making sure to be fully clear for future reference, just in case you guys end up being silly enough to lynch without any case on me whatsoever.

[Mizzy]

Common Sense Newsflash:

If you can't form a case for X person being scum, it's probably because they're not scum. Trying to lynch someone based on the fact that they "must" be scum due to set-up speculation that we can't prove and obviously can't comprehend right now is just begging for a mislynch leading to a scum win.

[Mizzy]

That's not completely true. Some people are good enough to appear completely town while being scum.

... Maybe if I had some experience being scum, that could be said of me, but if one looks at my wiki, one will see that I have

never been scum

.

[Mizzy]

I've gotten to the point where I just don't care about the outcome of this game anymore. I see people saying that I MUST be scum because they MUST be right about the set-up, you see, and there's no case against me other than process of elimination which is completely unprovable and not even a case. So not only can I not defend myself, but I'm watching town lose because certain people cannot see the forest for the trees.

I will say it again because it's all I can say; I am vanilla town. I am not the scum you are looking for. Voting for and lynching me will probably cost town the game.

That said, have at it. If anyone has any questions for me, I will gladly answer them, but other than that, I have nothing else I can say except point out the following:

- There is a possibility that Near was insane, or naive. "Cleared" people should not be overlooked.
- There is a possibility of a Godfather or other similar role, such as a traitor.

Being confident in yourself and in your findings is awesome, but I know from first-hand experience how much being wrong and unwilling to listen to other people can cost the town. Do not allow your stubborn attitudes to lose the game for everyone else.

[Mizzy]

Well, here's a brief summary of my opinions:

Firstly, I think we should, if we are going to debate role set-up, take into consideration the opposite of what we have held as truth for so long; what if Near was insane or naive and ooba and Y are actually both scum? I'm not saying that this is true or not, I'm saying we should think about it some before moving forward.

Y:

I still find his past actions pretty questionable, and the more I think about it, the more I wonder if my initial suspicions are correct and that he is scummy regardless. It is almost as though Y has used his "confirmed townie" status to slack off and give some pretty iffy statements, knowing he can say and do whatever he wants and he still won't be lynched.

jerubbaal2:

I think he's probably townie trying to secure a town win. I just think he's a little too confident in his own theories, which are incorrect ,as far as my alignment goes.

Incognito:

Lurker vibes and confident scum vibes from him, but I have been watching him for a while. I don't remember anything blatantly scummy from him (I'd have to reread him) but I do remember some latent and unyielding suspicion of him for a long time.

gorckat:

I am having trouble looking past his failure to save our cop, and yet at the same time, I can see why Near was seen as scummy and I question his sanity (Near's.) What should have been done was have the doc protect him and have Near investigate himself, but we did not think of that or have the chance for it. Pro-town reads, even through the overbearing self-confidence in his opinions.

Ripley:

Perhaps it is his personality, but I have always been a little wary of Ripley and while a good bit of it is gut, some of it has been from his posting, too. I like that he's being very contributive right now, since we have so little of that, but I still think he's to be wary of.

ooba:

Pro-town read on ooba, despite his early bad start in my books. I don't have much else to say because ooba really hasn't been very active lately and so isn't very prominent in my radar.

In short, I would be most in favor of an Incognito lynch today.

[Mizzy]

Why are you suddenly changing your opinion about it and mentioning that you've been receiving "lurker vibes and confident scum vibes" all game coming from me? WHEEEEEEEEEEE after these last few posts from Mizzy and jerub maybe this game really is as simple as a jerubbaal, Mizzy, and Ripley scum team and maybe there really

isn't

some investigation immune godfather like I suspected.

I'm not changing my opinion about it because the opinion is a newer one than that post. And it is not so much your lack of posting (although there has been that, off and on) but your lack of scumhunting/useful content that also seems intermittent. What I mean is, that while you have technically been around most of the time (key word most) I still feel like you have been sitting back and watching as opposed to full-out participating.

[Mizzy]

Incognito:

You rolled a 1 on an attempt to look witty.

As I have said in another game I am in with you, I don't have much time to do much in my games at the moment.

Oh, right, you keep ignoring that because it's easy to do so.

[Mizzy]

Oops, sorry!

I feel Y is actually the godfather/traitor/whatever due to his play this whole friggin' game. Especially after his vote on me, which feels like he's trying to use his "confirmed" townie status to kill me.

[Mizzy]

Apart from one post , Mizzy does not really speculate among pairings in the other 3 , apart from voting Incognito. Mizzy would i be correct in saying you believe Incognito+Ripley are more likely the scum in that group?
And quotes like
"Voting for and lynching me will probably cost town the game" - Post 935 - Probably?
"I've gotten to the point where I just don't care about the outcome of this game anymore."
really do not help.

What do you expect? Someone says to lynch me because I MUST be scum and I'm supposed to do what? I can't fight against the lack of a case. This is the worst situation for a townie to be in; one where nothing they say will help and all they can do if they see themselves about to be lynched is watch town lose.

I said probably because I don't know if we're in lylo or not.

And yes, for the moment, Incog and Ripley is the pairing I see as most likely, but that is if I completely discount Y as a suspect.

[Mizzy]

There is basically no reason in heck for Y to be voting Mizzy other than that he's clear scum trying to go for the win today and I've said that I'm willing to vote Mizzy.

That's exactly what bothers me about his vote on me. It's like he's taking that last leap of faith and is hoping his confirmed status is enough. He never even said WHY he's voting me.

I'm good with either an Incog or a Y lynch today.

[Mizzy]

I said why I vote fo you twice in the last two pages. You may go look.

Okay, maybe I should word this differently...less of a

bullshit

reason, please. You know why you aren't seeing my normal stellar performance here, but I am still participating and still giving quite a bit, considering my RL status.

Don't use my lack pf participation as an excuse to vote me when it's happening in every single game I'm in right now. I'm not participating as much as usual due to RL events, not alignment.

[Mizzy]

You're scum, jerubbaal is also scum, and either Ripley or Y is the third scum. Check and mate. I'm pretty much ready to vote for either one of jerubbaal or Mizzy.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that costs town their games. News flash: You are not psychic and you are not all-knowing. Get over yourself. And get off your ass and vote, too, would you? Or are you too afraid to have two scum on me before a townie hops on?

I still think jerubbaal is the best bet, with Mizzy at his side. I think either Incog is the third scum (my earlier thoughts on him poking at Mizzy), or Y if there is a triator/GF role. Both of them fit.

So basically you're okay with just about any lynch as long as it's not you?

I'm leaning towards a Gorckat/Incognito pair at the very least, now, with Y bringing up the rear.

Let's test the waters.

Vote: Gorckat

.

Now we have 1 vote on 4 different people, meaning that a lynch is only possible if the remaining 3 people all team up on one person or someone needs to switch. The remaining non-voters can't all be scum because otherwise, they'd have won already, so this is a pretty safe thing to do and might give us a good amount of information.

[Mizzy]

Now that Incognito has something to go on, he's out of nowhere being very outspoken and active. Perhaps it's because he feels that he has this in the bag, but like I said before, other than what has just been mentioned, there's no case on me; if you can call that a case.

I out the vote on Gor because I wanted a reaction from anyone; I got that reaction.

Unvote. Vote: Incognito

[Mizzy]

See? No one ever listens to me.

[Mizzy]

I enjoyed the game but the set-up speculation at the end that pretty much made all my hard work at good town play worthless really upset me, a lot. That's not a fault of the mod, however. I thought the flavor and such was very well done ^^