Mini 551- Mod Abandoned

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Hi all, I'm here to replace for woelrat. Looking forward to play with you.

First of all, the whole SensFan thing is just weird and distracting. Also, SensFan, shouldn't you be able to communicate better than that if you quote better? Or do more effective things with mimes? This PR seems pretty breakable... Want us to get a couple of good phrases down for you to quote?

Examples:

Yes, that would work.

I'm not allowed to do that.

This (the above quote or, if any parts are

formatted like this

, those parts) is scummy.
(Formatting above can be replaced with whatever works in the relevant post.)

This (the above quote or, if any parts are

formatted like this

, those parts) is true.

This (the above quote or, if any parts are

formatted like this

, those parts) is false.

The

formatted

part of the above quote(s) is a contradiction.

Can you explain this?

I'm satisfied with your explanation.

End examples.

If you can do this, there's nothing keeping us from copy-pasting a dictionary or something.

This is a normal game, so post restriction seems unlikely but not entirely unreasonable. The fact that there's a rule about something that would apply to it makes it somewhat more believable, though... And hey, if he's a cop, let the scum spend a kill on him. We can get information from him for a day or two, and after that, if he's not doing much good, we can just lynch him. I don't want anyone counterclaiming though (if this is a normal game weird enough to have post restrictions, I wouldn't be all that surprised to see another cop or something to that effect.) Also, taking into consideration the mod's comment on Jesters, I wouldn't be all too surprised to see SensFan as one of those either... Jesters with post restrictions are far from unheard of. (Again, I'd rather see the scum kill a jester. After all, they wouldn't be able to win after a jester wins either, only come second at best. )

My biggest problem with this game is that really all the focus has been on SensFan, and so he's pretty much the only one eligible for a lynch. Well, I don't like that, I want options, so I suggest we put some pressure on some people and see if we get anything interesting, and decide who to lynch after that. Hopefully the other two replacements and I will be able to shake things up a little. I think lovo14 seems like a good enough place to start applying pressure, him being (among) the most lurkerish people who hasn't been replaced.

VOTE: lovo14

Lovo, please post your thoughts on the game and who you think would make a good lynch.

I note that Joubert hasn't posted in a week. I'd be interested in hearing from him too, as soon as he gets back. Only got one vote though.

Prod, please.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

SensFan: Glad to see the quoting sentences thing worked. It's annoying to read vertical sentences. Can you do something like:

Cavebear holds up voting signs in the following order: "HI MOM I CAN SPEAK WITH SIGNS"

?

Still not happy about lovo14, but my vote there isn't doing much right now.

Unvote.

Instead, I'm getting on the Joubert wagon. I'm not really happy with how much he's done in this game; apart from a random vote and some comments about SensFan's PR, it's virtually blank posts.

Vote: Joubert.

How about you start posting a bit more content? Who do you think is scummy at this point?

Mod

: It seems you've put Joubert down as voting for SensFan, but I'm pretty sure his vote should be on Xyl (that's his initial random vote, and I don't think he's changed it since).

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Lovo14: Well, you didn't really say anything in your post that someone else hadn't already said before.

Joubert: Well now, this is interesting. It wasn't that long ago that you wanted to keep SensFan alive, or at least was open to the possibility... What changed to make you want to lynch him? What's wrong with keeping him alive for a night or two and make use of the information he'll be bound to give us given the cop claim? In a hurry, are you?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Cavebear, I will vote you each time you change your mind and/or your vote. Any objection? I hope not, because that's exactly what you did to me...

I heavily object against that, actually. That wouldn't be constructive at all. I am doing nothing of that kind, I'm merely poking at you for first lurking and then for casting a vote that made me raise my eyebrow. Now you're being overly defensive, methinks, not that necessarily implies that you're scum or anything.

Just for the record, I'll give my opinion on the SensFan situation:
First of all, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's faking the whole thing. Not as scum, not as town. In fact, given the situation, I think he's one of the scummiest characters around... which really doesn't say very much given that we don't have much info on anyone. "But Cavebear", an imaginary listener whines, "if he's scummy shouldn't we just lynch him and get him out of the equation?" It's an option, and one I consider more attractive than just lynching someone randomly. However, he has claimed cop, and I simply can't see how finding someone else to lynch puts us in a worse place.
Correct me if my reasoning is off: If we (you) had gone ahead and lynched him right away, we'd get some information based on his alignment and who voted for who and what not going into day two. If we keep him alive for a day or two, we get information that's either reliable (he's actually cop) or not reliable (he's scum/insane). Mind you, we'd have to lynch someone else, but we'll have to lynch someone else sooner or later... And for now at least, we're not in any hurry. At least I'm not.

By keeping SF alive for a day or two we'll get information that we, at some point in the game, will be able to judge is trustworthy or not. If we lynch him now, we get no info, guaranteed. More information is good for the town.

Therefore, I think we should take some time to round up an alternative or two. If, by the time people get really bored and thinks "omg we should just lynch someone already this game is like so dull i dont care who" and you STILL think SensFan is so scummy it doesn't motivate the potential extra information, then fine, let him hang. As for me, I'm all for throwing some extra pressure around and see if anyone cracks. Right now, I think Joubert is an interesting person to out under pressure.

Those of you still voting for SensFan, please state your reason for doing this given my above reasoning.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Ugh. This is going nowhere, fast. I still believe that a claimed cop day one should be kept alive for information purposes, but since these sorry excuses for wagons don't seem to be going anywhere, I'm prepared to throw in the towel on this particular issue to get the game moving again. It's not like the guys currently voting SensFan hasn't had enough opportunities to toss their votes around, amirite?

Unvote
Vote: SensFan

Now to see who's willing to hammer. Might prove interesting. And to see if SensFan has some parting comments. If his PR is indeed fake, now would be a good time to share, I think.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Quick reply:

Do I think he's scum? Not sure. As I said before, it wouldn't surprise me if the whole PR is a bluff, and it also wouldn't surprise me if, if he's faking it, he's actually town. Metagamingly, he's got a history of doing "unorthodox" stuff. In any case, a fairly unprovoked day one cop claim sort of stinks, as does the whole situation (PR in a normal mini?), but I'm perfectly willing to let him live for a while to see what kind of info he gives. However, that in turn hinges on finding someone better to lynch, which is something I perceive that a large (or at least loud) part of the town is against or at least can't be bothered to do themselves, so a large part of my voting SF is indeed to get things moving and, if he does turns out to be cop, be very angry or at least mildly upset at said loud and lazy part of town.

All that being said, I'd be happy to get on something like a lovo14 wagon if four or five other energetic people care to join me. I think I provided some reasons against him earlier, and I know other people have, but I need to sleep and I'm sure you can all read.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Unvote
Vote: lovo14

I believe this should put him at 5 votes; Imat, Korts, Shanba, SensFan, me.

Lovo: I'd like to believe you'll be more active day two and following days, but there's simply no way to tell (you can't even be metagamed) if that's true or if you're just trying to stay below the radar and, if so, for how long you're planning on doing that.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Well, that went down

slightly

faster than I expected... >_< Guess I should've tried harder to get the Joubert wagon going after all. Well, at least now we won't be short on options for tomorrow's lynch.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Heh. Nice chain of blocks

you've got going there

you had going there before Imat messed it up. I gotta admit, after seeing Khelvaster's intricate rules for night actions and learning of at least one and possibly two other roleblockers, I was half expecting something like this.

I'm a roleblocker. Before everyone (who hasn't already) blurts out who they blocked, can we get a confirmation of who are roleblockers and who are not? If we let a scum get the last word on who they allegedly blocked, they can tinker with the results of the block chain making it seem like any one person was or was not blocked. I'm not sure of the full implacations of this, but I think it's important enough to get the RB claims first and the actions later. Also, I want to hear what SensFan has to say about his night/investigation before we establish if he was blocked or not.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Off topic: the Nibblers

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Before everyone (who hasn't already) blurts out who they blocked, can we get a confirmation of who are roleblockers and who are not?

No one else should claim who they blocked. I think that's the key to figuring out this whole mess.

As far as my blocks last night, I blocked Joubert. With his action yesterday, I thought the chances of him being scum were pretty high.

Way to not take your own advice, or mine.

Again, SensFan's information here is important. If we can detect a discrepancy between his info (on whether or not he was blocked) and the block chain, we know SOMEONE is lying.

Either we get SensFan to reveal his results now, and then try not to let a scum get the last chance to reveal their block. The alternative would be that we decide that SensFan is trustworthy. In that case, it would be better to leave him for last and use that information to narrow down the possible liers amongst the roleblockers. How many are willing to gamble on SensFan being a genuine cop at this point?

Claims and blocks at this point:

Cogito Ergo Scum -- Roleblocker, tried to block Elias

Elias_the_thief -- Confirmed Roleblocker

, unknown block, dead
jerubbaal -- Roleblocker, tried to block Joubert
Joubert -- Unknown
Korts -- Roleblocker, tried to block CESc
Imat -- Roleblocker, tried to block Elias
SensFan -- Cop
Shanba -- Unknown
ting =) -- Roleblocker, unknown block
Cavebear with a Toothache -- Roleblocker, unknown block
Xylthixlm -- Roleblocker, tried to block Korts

Joubert and Shanba, claim please, and if you're roleblockers, leave out who you blocked for now.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Joubert: Did you miss the part where you weren't supposed to reveal who you blocked? To answer your question, A is the person who is blocking B who is the person blocking C etc all the way to the action that is NOT a roleblock (in this case a night kill). In other words, as long as there is an even number in the chain, the final action will be blocked; if there's an odd number of people, the action will go through.

SensFan: C would still be blocked by D, so it wouldn't matter. I think the plan to pair up is pretty solid. (Chain would be townD blocks scumC who can't block townB who blocks scumA who then can't NK. Even if the third scum, scumE, tried to block townD (or townB), scumE would in turn be blocked by townF.) Now, did you find anything last night?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Now, did you find anything last night?

The alternative would be that we decide that SensFan is trustworthy. In that case, it would be better to leave him for last and use that information to narrow down the possible liers amongst the roleblockers.

Right. The alternative. I thought about that, and I believe that it's better to have a higher chance of outing you (ie gambling on the scum not being in a position to screw things up by letting them reveal last) than betting on you being a cop to begin with. The possible gain is higher (revealing a fake cop compared to establishing that someone unknown is lying about their claim).

Of course, this is increasingly becoming a moot point what with people revealing their actions anyway. Anyway, if anyone strongly objects against SensFan revealing his stuff before the remaining three (I think?) people reveal their actions, let him/her speak now.

I do really think that a mass-claim is the absolute best thing for us at this moment.

I agree about the claim, but not the revealing of actions. If we can confirm SensFan as a cop, and we can keep the scum from killing at night, this game is won.

Let me repeat that:

If SensFan can be confirmed as cop and we can keep the scum from killing him by locking them down in pairs, WE WIN.

Confirming should be easy enough if we can keep him alive; just go for no lynch each night and wait until he finds scum, roleblocking in pairs to keep them from NK:ing. Lynch that person. If he's scum, we're golden - we just rinse and repeat until all the scum are flushed out. If not, we're back to where we are now (scum can't NK, we try to find them by discussion) except we know one scum for sure (SensFan).

On that note,

FoS Xylthixlm, FoS Cogito Ergo Scum

for these quotes:

So: Pair off all the players except SensFan and one other. Lynch SensFan.

We will lynch SF after he reveals his result.

What's your rush, if the scum can't NK?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

If there's one person we could leave, it's probably SensFan, assuming we're going to use him to find scum, and assuming he can't block and investigate at the same time. That would imply that the prudent course of action is to lynch no one, as that leaves us with even pairs plus one (which would be SensFan), meaning scum would have to be paired up with each other to pull off a night kill. As a matter of fact, SensFan of all people should realize that.

SensFan, I do believe you should reveal your results from last night now.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

No, we're at 10 now, will be a 9 after lynch.

Right. Sorry, I confused this game with another one where we went to deadline without a lynch. After doing some math, I agree, we can't afford not to lynch.

Well, the way I see it, if SensFan is an actual cop, there's a very high chance of us winning. If he's not a cop, someone will die tonight, and he'll fake either being blocked (the obvious thing) or an innocent result. If we lynch one and establish four pairs plus one, there's a (1 - (1*3/4*2/4)) = 5/8 chance of scum managing to pair up if SensFan isn't scum. (One minus the chance of scum being spread out in different pairs.) Those aren't very good odds, actually. If we manage to lynch scum, their chance drops to one in sixteen.

In any case, we need to make up our minds about SensFan. For this, he needs to reveal his results.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

So we're all roleblockers except SF. Glad that's settled. What to do with the remaining three night actions, then? (Mine, Shanba's, Ting =)'s.) I'm starting to think it might not be all that relevant, but it's good to get it out there either way. Reveal popcorn style, vote who goes first? Or everyone who's already revealed votes on order of revealing? Or everybody vote on order of revealing?

Shanba has a good point about the guilty Jerub claim. I find it extremely hard to believe that there would be an insane cop with a post restriction (a miller/framer seems very unlikely too), so it should be a good way to see if he's lying.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Long post is long:

First, a suggestion for pairings: The point is to try to keep the scum separated, no? So how about everybody votes for the people they think are most likely to be scum? If we manage to get all the scum (hopefully no more than three) in the top four, we're golden. If we pair 1-8, 2-7 etc we pair who we collectively think is scummiest with the one we collectively think is least likely to be scum, which makes sense to me. If we decide to go for a no lynch, the least voted person would (obviously) be the one without a "partner".

I'm not sure if this an altogether better variant than voting for pairs, but it seems cleaner. The largest flaw with that plan is, I think, if scum manage to manipulate the voting enough to put scum at place four and five.

I *think* it would be best if we rank all the players (except SensFan, if we want him to investigate) according to scumminess and give them the corresponding points value (IE, the scummiest get eight points, second scummiest gets seven points etc) and total that amount (alternative would be to vote for the X scummiest people and giving them one point each). I believe that would be beneficial because we outnumber the scum, but for now that's an educated guess, because I don't have the math for it. (The reasoning would be something about a higher combined total of point would average out better and be harder to influence, I think.)

If we do this, I suggest we do it popcorn style, giving the scum less chance to be able to cast their votes in a way that would push one of their scumbuddies out of the top four and into a a spot where they'd be teamed up with fellow scum.

-----

As for whether to lynch or not... I really only have one problem with not lynching, and that's that it'd give scum a higher chance of avoiding a block because someone has to go unpaired:
Chance of locking down the scum (with eight people): (1)*(6/7)*(4/6)=24/42=4/7 (about 58%)
Chance of scum locked down with nine people: (8/9)*(5/7)*(3/6)=40/126=20/63 (about 32%)
Figures are ([number of "safe seats"]/[total number of "seats"] for the first scum)*(numbers for scum #2)*(numbers for scum #3).
Oh, and all this is on the assumption that there are three scum (and that SensFan isn't one of them) and that everyone else is a roleblocker. If there's another role out there (a real cop or an SK for example), the odds drop to (7/8*5/7*3/6=35/112) about 31% or (7/9*4/7*2/6=28/189) about 15%. Those are not good odds.

(Note that I earlier claimed scum would have a 5/8 chance of not being blocked with eight people; I think this was a mistake on my part where I counted pairs instead of "seats".) If anyone spots a mistake here, please tell me.

That's random chance, mind you, and hopefully we can do better by not pairing up randomly. Still, the risk is about twice as high with one person unblocked.

Even if we don't lynch: the moment either Jerub or SensFan dies, the other one is confirmed as scum/town (with the possible exception of SensFan bussing Jerub, but in that case we'd still be up a lynch and would find out that SensFan lies when we lynch the next one.) Right now, based on likelyhood of a PR in the first place combined with someone claiming cop day one and then immediately finding scum etc, I'd estimate the chance of SensFan/Jerubbaal being scum to be something like 70-30, assuming there's no bussing going on. If we lynch one of them, I'd

still

rather it be Jerubbaal, entirely based on the added benefit of a confirmed cop over the benefit of a confirmed townie/roleblocker. On a similar note, we'd be in a better position if we no lynch now (and every day after that while SensFan investigates) but the odds of us successfully blocking are lower with nine than ten people. I'm not sure which is best.

-----

Regardless, the odds of a cop being in this game are precisely zero. It's already broken enough, Khel wouldn't completely break it.

Hmm. That's not a bad point. Mind you, I could easily think of roles that would unbreak the scenario even with a cop (EG unblockable scum/SK, a Godfather, what have you). Ugh, the complexity of all this combined with the fact that this is supposedly a normal game is pretty much giving me a headache. Maybe we should just apply Occam's razor and lynch SensFan already. Or maybe see if we can get moved to the theme park?

-----

Lastly, since nobody seems interested enough to do a vote on revealing night actions, I'll just reveal mine and get it out there: I blocked Joubert. Ting and Shanba, what were your blocks?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

I have between 0 and 2 roles that would be considered nonstandard, and my flavor is mafia-flavored, so I will fight to keep it as a normal mini.

Sorry, that wasn't an entirely serious proposal. I didn't mean any disrespect.

Adding a cop does completely break the scenario, and if the scum had a counter to the cop, it would have been used night 1. There is absolutely no reasonable scenario in which SF could be cop and this still be even a remotely balanced game.

Well, there could be a Godfather, that seems like an easy inclusion that would unbreak the scenario. There could be several Godfathers. And/or an unblockable SK. Or unblockable scum and SensFan is still alive just to mess with us. Hell, you could be an unknowing Miller for all we know. Anyway, there are several ways this could be constructed that does not result in us breaking the game.

Actually, I had not thought of it before, but if we lynch SF, we've basically won. There are two remaining scum, and three fairly confirmed townies (Korts, CES, and myself). From there we can just lynch the unconfirmeds and get all the scum, if we can successfully lock down the kill.

No. I'm not willing to lynch a possible - even if he's unlikely - tool to make this game easier, even if there are Godfathers and Millers. If we can get results on everyone, let's get them.

Plus, if a kill does occur, it won't be difficult at all to deduce where it came from and, as long as we keep a confirmed townie in the loose spot, we'll be fine.

This, however, is true. Kills should be reasonably easy to figure out. I'm not willing to put you in the loose spot, though, and I don't consider you a "fairly confirmed townie" no matter how many times you repeat it.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

So currently it looks like this:

For a SensFan lynch:
Cogito Ergo Scum
jerubbaal
Xylthixlm

For a jerubbaal lynch:
Cavebear
Imat
Korts
SensFan
Shanba
ting =)

Undecided:
Joubert (leaning towards jerubbaal lynch)

If you disagree with where you are on the list, speak up. I've made sure you've all mentioned yourself to be in favor of the lynch in question at some point, but some of you might have changed your minds. Unless there's a problem, I'd say there's a clear majority for a jerubbaal lynch.

Does anyone have anything to add to this, or can we move on to pairings? (and yes, we need someone to block SensFan if jerub turns out town.)

Shanba, you haven't mentioned yet who you blocked last night.

---

On a different note, I'll be out of town for a week starting tomorrow (friday). I'm not sure what my Internet access will be like, but I'll check in whenever/if I can.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

I'm not comfortable with calling CESc as closed-to-confirmed just based on him guessing at an all-RB setup earlier than most. In fact, if Jerub is scum, I'd think of him as scummier-looking than most. Also, I don't want to see any of the trio of CESc, Xyl and Joubert in the same pairs. Other than that, I think most pairs would be fine.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

I'm back home and as active as ever again.

Korts' and jerubbaals pairings both look okay to me, so using Korts' pairs in case jerub is scum and jerub's pairs in case he's town works for me.

And yes, we very much need everyone to be confirmed and ready to go before moving forward. That includes waiting for Xyl to be replaced, I guess. Also, I'd like to remind everyone that we can send in night actions in advance, but please do NOT do that. I assume that once Khelvaster has a night action from everyone, he'll move to the next day, so we could end up in a bad spot if someone sends in the wrong block in advance and doesn't have time to change it. Makes sense?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Haven't really got much to add right now, guess we better just wait for replacements. If anyone reading this hasn't okayed (or objected to) the lynch-jerub-then-pair-up-as-Korts-or-jerub-suggested plan, feel free to voice your opinion and let the rest of us know you're around.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

No matter which of SF and jerub we lynch (first), we'll get rid of a scum. If we can then successfully lock down the rest of the scum, and they have two left, town pretty much wins, just as jerub says. So if we've got the setup correctly figured out, we win. With that in mind, I'm thinking of the scenario where we're missing something (block immunity, mind control, whatever), and I'd rather have a pretty-much-confirmed cop than a pretty-much-confirmed-townie as best case scenario.

Also, I'd like to state for the record that I don't like this talk about "confirmed" townies. Nobody is confirmed as far as I'm concerned, they just look like unlikely scum.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

and they have two left, town pretty much wins, just as jerub says.

Not quite I think. Jeru's plan would work because confirmed townies outnumber scum in his scenario (3>2). With only 2 confirmed townies and 2 scum, the scum could hypothetically still win. It's not an auto win, but yes, we'd have really good odds anyway.

Hmm, you're right, I didn't quite think that through... My reasoning was that it would be very easy to figure out which pair was doing the killing if we have two confirmeds to block people with, but there would be enough unknown factors to make it less than a sure thing. We do still have very good odds though.

My vote is still on a jerub lynch. As soon as everyone has confirmed they know what to do at night, I say we lynch him and get the game moving forward again.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

What I'm starting to wonder is if the seemingly best tactic (currently, IMO, lynching jerub and locking down the scum) will be possible to do in practice, what with inactivity and so on. >_<
Especially the locking down everybody part, since that very much depends on people being around and doing what they're supposed to.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Mathematically, I dislike a no lynch; the chance of an NK is a bit too high (although, an NK might be very revealing at this point if we do the blocks properly.)

I'm starting to think jerub looks increasingly likely to be town (or VERY persistent scum), to the point where I'm doubting the benefits of lynching him, but I still think the best way to this is to lynch him. Even if the most likely scenario is that we lynch him today and SF tomorrow, we're still in a good position. SF as cop looks weird, but frankly, we can afford to take the chance if our position is even half as good as it looks.

All in all, I prefer a jerub lynch, followed by no lynch, followed by SF lynch. I don't see very much point in lynching someone else entirely; assuming that either jerub or SensFan is scum, I don't think it would pay off to hunt elsewhere.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Cavebear, where'd the no lynch idea come from? Are you assuming Jerub turns Scum? Then why lynch SF. If you're assuming Jerub turns Town, why give SF Scum another day to live? I have no idea where this no lynch inbetween lynches came from.

Wasn't my idea; as far as I could find, this is the first mention of it as a serious idea:

I'm seriously considering the no lynch option. No lynch repeatedly, and when he has results on everyone, lynch him and see if he was a cop.

Valid points though, both Imat's and jerub's. It was weeks since the no lynch idea was brought up, and I can't remember my thoughts on it. Let's see if I can reconstruct them...
With a no-lynch, we'd leave SF and one more unpaired. If SF is cop, we run a higher risk of not being able to block all the scum, which is bad. Or at least that's the conclusion I came to earlier. I don't think I included the obvious thing there though, which is to block jerub with the "most town-looking" person, so the odds shouldn't be that bad, really. In fact, they should be pretty good, since the remaining two scum would have to be paired up with each other in order to kill. If SF is scum, then? Well, if the alternative is a jerubbaal lynch, we really gain a kill. SF can either kill jerub, instead of us lynching him, or kill someone else. Either way, if anyone's killed and jerub blocked, odds are stacked pretty heavily against SensFan.

Okay, I've got to be missing something, because when I put it like this, a no lynch seems like the best option. Am I missing something? Help me out here.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Also, if a no lynch was not originally your idea, I apologize. I thought you were the first to suggest it, I should have reread to make sure before putting your name down, just in case

Apology excepted, it was no big thing.

I'll support a no lynch over my lynch, but it's the exact same result in the end. SF is dead, once you lynch me. He's just trying to get off one more kill before he goes.

I don't see where a no-lynch would get us. If we setup the blocks so that we paired them with Scummy players apart, what are the odds there'd even be a NK?

If we lynch jerubbaal, and he's town, and we block SF, there's still a (small) chance of the other scum getting a NK. If we no lynch, there's a maximum of one kill. If there's a kill, it's almost certainly because of SensFan.

And Jerub, you keep mentioning two confirmed Townies. Korts I can somewhat understand, but you never really explained CESc. His defense of you is all the more disturbing for it. I don't think anybody is confirmed anything until endgame

Agreed.

Assuming that either SensFan or jerubbaal is scum:
If we no-lynch and block jerubbaal and SensFan is cop, the remaining two scum (not knowing there are three scum but assuming it because... well, actually, maybe there ARE four scum if SensFan's actually a cop, but that would be awkward and not good, so let's assume there are three) ...the remaining two scum would have to be paired up or be the odd man out. After we pair up jerubbaal with someone (Korts?) and let SensFan investigate, there are seven left, which means someone has be left unpaired. The chance of any of the scum being left unpaired is 2/7, and the chance of (if none of them end up alone) them ending up blocking each other is 1/6. About a 60% chance (25/42) of neither happening. Not too great, but hopefully we can make an educated guess about who to leave unpaired.
(Odds of NK happening if SF is scum and ends up being blocked by Korts equals odds of remaining two scum ending up next to each other; that is, 1/7, about 14%)

Those are the odds. Note that if we have a doc or an SK or something else pretending to be a roleblocker, odds drop quickly. The downside of a no lynch is the WIFOM that follows if SF really is a cop and we miss the lynch; but at least then it should be reasonably easy to figure out who the remaining scum are based on the blocks.

Pros and cons of no lynch: Higher probability of a dead town, but a maximum of one dead town. Unless SK. Also, extremey low probability of dead scum.
Pros and cons of lynching jerub: If jerub is scum, we're golden with a confirmed cop and a dead scum. If he isn't, we're down one town and possibly (albeit unlikely) another at night (or more with SK).

Soo... Yeah, with all said and done, I think I still favour the jerub lynch. Higher risk if he's town, higher reward if he's scum. I'm not entirely opposed a no lynch though, if that's what the majority wants.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Apology excepted, it was no big thing.

Weird typo. Obviously meant ACCepted.

I wasn't proposing no lynching for just one day. A jeru lynch would be better. I'm proposing blocking until SF has a result on everyone.

Naturally. I don't think I said or implied anything else; if I did, it was a mistake. Regarding the calculating of odds etc, which I assume is what you're referring to, I'm just thinking about tonight; if nobody dies, I definitely think we should keep going until we have results on everybody. I should've probably mentioned this though, so I guess I see your point.

Also, if we no lynch, we leave Korts and SF free, not pair Korts with Jeru.

Explain your reasoning here, please... We're not leaving Korts (or whoever) unpaired; that person will still block someone. A double block on a suspicious person, if you will. Possibly jerub, or we could leave it up to him so that, if there's room for wifom amongst the scum (in the case that SF is cop; obviously a moot point if he's not.) If Jerub is scum, assigning a random (non-Korts) person to him is equivalent of letting them go unpaired.

The whole point of letting SF investigate assumes that he's cop. So with that plan, it makes sense to treat jerub as scum until proven otherwise. Therefore, we should assign our most trustworthy townie (Korts) to block him. It doesn't matter who we tell jerub to block; first of all he's already blocked by someone, and even if he wasn't; if he's town, SF will kill anyone either way, and if he's scum, he won't do as we say anyway.

But yeah, if I'm missing something that would make it more beneficial for Korts to be the one unpaired, speak up.

this is a peculiar vote. It could be reluctant bussing, but if Sensfan is town, it looks more like an attempt to revive a dying wagon.

It looks a bit peculiar, I'll give you that, but it was neither bussing nor trying to lynch town. The wagon I was on grinded to a halt, and I'd rather get the game moving by making a non-optimal lynch than let it slow to a complete halt. Probably not the tactically best decision, granted, but a compromise. You seem to assume I'm scum. I find that odd.

In reality ofc, his PR is very easily verified

I'm not following. How would we verify the claim? If you're referring to asking him to break the PR, wouldn't that be to be asking for a modkill if it is real? Or do mean something else?

If you believe SF to be Scum, why allow him to turn the Town against itself by fake-guiltying us? Thats one of many reasons why No Lynch is not a good option, not as good as finding the truth now at least.

If we get to the point of having results on everybody, I'd rather lynch SF. If he's cop, we win, if he's not, we're still pretty good with no dead townpeople.

If we lynch Jerub and he's town, we can block SF and scum have very low chance of being able to NK. If he's scum, great, very low chance for scum to NK. If we no lynch and If nobody dies, great. If someone dies however, there's still a chance of SF being cop and thus there will be plenty of WIFOM. Meh, I could go either way, I guess. I like the option with less possible wifom (lynching jerub.)

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Even if breaking a PR isn't punishable by modkill, deliberately breaking it should be. Even if it isn't, it'd against the spirit of the rules and the game, IMHO. If I'm wrong and it's a valid and accepted way of playing, then sure, go ahead.

I don't think of CESc as confirmed. It could just as easily be him figuring out that Korts was pretty much outing himself by that point.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Okay, I guess if BM's done rereading, it'd be pretty much time to end the day.

Sounds good. Here are the suggested pairs, for reference:
If jerubbaal turns up scum:

CESc--Korts
Battle Mage--Shanba
Joubert--Cavebear
Imat--ting

Unpaired: SF

If jerubbaal turns up town:

Korts unpaired
CES - SF
Shanba-Battle Mage
Joubert-Ting
Imat-Cavebear

(Quotes edited to replace Xyl with Battle Mage)

Mod: Can we get an official vote count?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

^this is what i was hinting at earlier. So getting him modkilled doesnt end the day, and so we would get the benefit of 2 lynches for 1.

Not really; it'd be true if we were lynching SF, but we're not. Asking him to break his PR would be a better option than lynching him, I'll give you that.

Trying to figure out and break the setup is a bit boring and borderline anti-spirit of the game, I'll give you that too, but it's not actually breaking the rules and hoping for a lenient punishment. Unless I misunderstand you and you really do want SF to be modkilled to check his alignment? Hmm. Ok, I see how that'd be a strategy... Either he's modkilled, in which case he's cop, in which case we lynch jerubbaal, thereby trading a cop for scum. Or he's not, in which case he's likely not cop, in which case we lynch him, getting a scum and not losing jerubbaal.

I don't really think that's optimal play though. If he's cop, the only scenario in which we get to keep him is if Khelvaster publically warns him. That doesn't seem like something I'd bet on. It is a decent scenario if he's scum, though, and better than lynching him... But if he's scum, he'd never agree to do it.

Would you elaborate a bit further? Am I correct in thinking you want him to break his PR until publically warned, modkilled, or keep breaking it until it's obvious that he WOULD be modkilled if he had a PR? You stated earlier that you thought he does have a PR and is town-aligned, but also hinted that you didn't think he was a cop... Is that why you don't want to see jerubbaal lynched?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Id rather not have discussed this so much beforehand-it only gives Khelv more ideas

Whoa there. You're trying to actively mislead the mod? And you don't see a problem with this?

So the only way to go is SensFan breaking his PR... Strange...

What? The way to go is to lynch jerubbaal. >_> If SensFan was the lynch, the way to go would be get him to break his PR; but it's not, so it's not.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Id rather not have discussed this so much beforehand-it only gives Khelv more ideas

Whoa there. You're trying to actively mislead the mod? And you don't see a problem with this?

No. Im refraining from telling the mod how to run his game.

Ah, ok. Because it seemed like you were trying to create a situation the mod might not have planned for and hope he responded in a way that would benefit you/us.

Anyway, I think it's time to end this day. It's been going on with no real progress for too long.

Vote: jerubbaal

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Guys, we're not lynching yet. We're getting SF to break his supposed PR first.

OKAY?

Cavebear's and Shanba's sudden eager to end the day worries me to no end.

No, not ok. There's no point. Even BEFORE Khelvaster foiled those plans, the outcome was uncertain and even if they weren't it was only ever better than downright lynching him. As I've stated repeatedly.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Khelv said that breaking a PR will result in modkill.

So, either SF gets modkilled and we lynch jerub, or SF lives to see himself lynched. We're basically given another lynch.

If SF is cop and has a PR and breaks it, he'd be modkilled, after which we'd lynch jerub, and we'd have traded a cop for a scum. However, if he's cop, then jerub is scum, and if we lynch jerub right away, we still get the scum and won't lose the cop. So if SF is cop, he wouldn't want to break the PR because it'd be better if he didn't.

If SF isn't cop/doesn't have a PR (not the same thing but has the same result) he won't brake the PR either, since that would confirm him as faking.

In summary, asking SF to break his PR is pointless*.

*The exception would be if he's cop and we were planning on lynching him; then he could get himself modkilled and thus confirmed as cop, and we would save a lynch.

Is everybody around and aware of the situation, so we can get on with it?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Everybody's checked in since the last votecount, except jerubbaal, so we can pretty much move forward. Well, as soon as CESc gets back, at least.

Jerubbaal, got anything to say before you go?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

3: The possibility is still there that scum have something in their arsenal to protect against breaking strategies, say an unroleblockable godfather (not a role I've seen before, but there's always a first time).

3. Actually a valid point. I hadn't considered this.

I could easily think of roles that would unbreak the scenario even with a cop (EG unblockable scum/SK, a Godfather, what have you).

Adding a cop does completely break the scenario, and if the scum had a counter to the cop, it would have been used night 1. There is absolutely no reasonable scenario in which SF could be cop and this still be even a remotely balanced game.

Well, there could be a Godfather, that seems like an easy inclusion that would unbreak the scenario. There could be several Godfathers. And/or an unblockable SK. Or unblockable scum and SensFan is still alive just to mess with us. Hell, you could be an unknowing Miller for all we know. Anyway, there are several ways this could be constructed that does not result in us breaking the game.

We've already been over this. Can we just lynch jerub now?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Asking SF to claim is pointless, as I've already explained. As long as the alternative is lynching jerubbaal, asking him to claim is worse than the alternative/lynching jerubbaal if SF's town, and won't happen if he's scum. It would only be relevant if the alternative was to lynch him; then it would be in his best interest to get himself modkilled if he's town. Right now, it's not.

Last I checked, consensus was that jerubbaal - and not SF - was the lynch today. Has anyone changed their minds?

Imat, ting =), Battle Mage (and Shanba) - you're the ones not voting atm. Why not?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Definition of consensus. I meant consensus as in majority of opinion, not general agreement or concord. That should've been obvious, really.

Just wanted to say that i too am currently against Jerub's lynch-at least until we get a conclusion about Sens.

Conclusion how?

why is Shanba listed in Brackets?

Because he just talked about why how he's reluctant.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Well, I was under the impression that there was a majority for a jerubbaal lynch, see this post. If I'm wrong about this, well, I'm wrong, and we'll have to go over all the pros and cons again. IMO it boils down to this lynch not being all that important either way; worst case* we pretty much lynch first town and then scum tomorrow, and best case we semi-confirm a cop.

*worst case not including something like SF being town and faking all this.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

@cave.
There's still discussion going on. I'll vote when I'm either very confident on my choice, or when there's no more discussion.

My current stand:
Don't make SF break his PR.
Don't lynch Jeru.

Well, that doesn't leave much to do, does it?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

There's still:
No lynch.
Lynch SF.
Lynch someone else.

I realize that Jeru will probably get lynched, but I'm not going to help push his lynch along.

Okay, so why don't you give some reasons for why doing the above is better than lynching jerub?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Can we maybe try to get some structure here? IE, everyone who wants SF to break his PR posts that in bold (ie, treat it as a vote), so there's not any doubt about your intentions? I'm fine with it if the majority is; it would at least be the second best thing, if a jerub lynch is impossible... (Although I still believe the possible gain of a towny SF outweighs the risk of a scummy SF and that jerub is the correct lynch today.)

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Two weeks should be plenty.

I assume that everyone requesting that SensFan break his PR are willing to lynch him if he doesn't. Would be kinda pointless otherwise. SensFan, are you willing to break your PR (rather than be lynched and thus cost the town a lynch) if the majority of the town demands so?

Informal PR break count, with informal vote count for comparison:

People requesting SensFan to break his PR (3): jerubbaal, Korts, Battle Mage
People voting jerubbaal (4): SensFan, Korts, Joubert, Cavebear

[Cavebear with a toothache]

So exactly half the players want SF to break his PR? Awkward. >_>

SF, still haven't heard your reaction to this?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Welcome, Evilgorrilaz.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Ok, so there's really no way of confirming SF's PR. So we're now, practically, back at square one (or maybe square two; I'm slightly less inclined to believe SF's claim now.) I'm opposed to a no lynch largely because the blocks are that much harder; the risk of scum going unblocked is quite high simply because someone is left unpaired. The risk, of course, being that SF could be cop and there would still be a kill and we would then lynch SF. That would be pretty bad.

We'd need some pairings for a no lynch alternative. Korts?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Not buying it. I see absolutely no reason for you to be so resistant if your first break leads to just a private warning.

Guys, please read this. It's important and condemning.

GUYS PLEASE READ THIS ITS IMPORTANT AND CONDEMNING

It is slightly condemning, because it implicates that he just made stuff up as he went along, and as I said, I do disbelieve his claim more now than before. Hmm. He probably SHOULD have mentioned the part about him not being able to be modkilled.

SF, why didn't you mention earlier that you wouldn't get modkilled no matter what? Or did you, and I missed it in my reread?

Unvote

, until I'm satisfied about this.

About the no lynch alternative:

SF unblocked
Korts unblocked, blocks jerubbaal for safety. (That's if you're alright with me going unblocked)
jerubbaal-Cavebear
CESc-ting
Joubert-Shanba
Evilgorillaz-BM replacement

That's, I think, a reasonably sound pairing. If you have any objections, glad to hear them.

Just to point this out: If you block jerub, that essentially means I go unblocked as well. So in this case, I believe it's actually best if you don't block anyone at all.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Ting has a valid point about it probably not being such a hard thing to find the scum if they manage to off someone and SF is cop. Since I don't consider CESc to be confirmed - and frankly, I don't like the idea of betting the game on Korts being completely confirmed either - I don't consider the point that we'd have two confirmeds and that we'd easily be able to find the scum isn't valid. Still, I guess it should be relatively easy to deduce what's going on.

Anyway, not committing to anything before I get a reply from SF.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

That's... Really not a good answer. We could've avoided wasting a fair amount of time if you'd explained that even if you broke the PR the mod would do nothing.

Bah, enough of this. I want to know what's going on; I want to know if SF is a cop or not. Right now, I don't believe that he is, and I'm increasingly willing to lynch him. If he's scum, great. If he really is a cop, at least we get one scum and still have a pretty good position for the rest of the game.

Vote: SensFan

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Alright, fine, let's talk this over some more...

Unvote

I'm convinced there is an objectively best course of action here, but right now, I just don't see it. Choosing the path that provides the most information doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

If he's cop and you get him lynched....

...I'll be sure to regret it, and then we lynch jerubbaal, and then there are two scum left and we have a large amounts of blockers? Doesn't seem all that different from the scenario where we lynch jerubbaal and he's town. Or if we no lynch and SF dies. Or if we no lynch and someone dies and we lynch SF and he's town. Frankly, I don't consider the option where we keep SF and he investigates everyone and they're the scum and we just win as realistic, that seems way too easy. See also: Murphy's law.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

I'm not entirely certain, but I believe a no lynch isn't the great compromise it might appear to be... For one thing, we surrender the one thing we have going as town: the lynch. Should be interesting to see CESc's point, nevertheless.

Oh, and for the record, apparently I was the one to suggest that the person going unblocked in case of a no lynch should block someone scummy - double blocking the scum, as it were - about a month ago. I don't think that's a good idea anymore (as I said, it leaves someone else essentially unblocked). Even the chance of countering pairing scum with scum (and the added wifom if Korts doesn't say who he'll block) probably isn't worth it. I think.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

We want to consider whether we want a No Lynch or not. Having an even or odd number of people tonight is a secondary question at best.

Wait, what? If we no lynch, we WILL have an even number of people. If we lynch someone, we WILL have an odd number. I'd be much more in favor of a no lynch if there were nine of us, as we then wouldn't have to worry about the unblocked person.

Your pairs looked fine.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

I'm including SF. We're ten now, so no lynch and SF unblocked means nine people (plus SF) means one unblocked. One lynch means... Well, that doesn't necessarily mean SF goes unblocked, especially not if he's lynched, but if he is, the rest are even blocks. If we were nine now, then we could no lynch and SF could go unblocked and the rest would be paired up evenly - that would be a no lynch I would be more willing to support.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Lynching someone else than SF or jerubbaal seems like a bad idea; for one thing, one of them are almost certainly scum, meaning lynching someone else is a statistically much worse move.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Yeah, I don't like it either. I haven't contradicted myself - Whereas I would prefer a no lynch in a situation with an odd number, there's no good way of getting to such a situation (at least not without lynching SF or jerubbaal). I didn't mean that remark to mean that I wanted us to make the town number odd; it was just a reflection explaining that were the situation different, I'd like a no lynch much better.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Well actually I kinda do, Joubert is somewhere at the top of my list of possible scum. Has been since yesterday. It's a bit hazy up there though. No, my problem is that I'm simply not trusting my judgment to be better than the one in two chance of finding scum that comes from lynching one of jerub or SF. It would be a convenient way of not having to make a decision regarding those two, but it just seems inferior to the option of lynching jerub or SF right away.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Just remembered that we have a deadline, and that deadline is May 21, which is technically tomorrow (it's May 20 here now, and have been for just under two hours.) I don't have an answer to what the right thing to do here is, and I guess CESc isn't posting that big insightful thing he promised.

Be back tomorrow (ie "later today") with something hopefully insightful.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Okay then. My thoughts on the situation.
I think it's highly likely that SF is faking his PR. The fact that (he claims that) he didn't feel like revealing that BM's plan was doomed to fail because no matter what he does, Khelvaster won't modkill him tipped the scales.
There is then the matter of uncertainty and of pros vs cons, or risk vs reward. The benefit of an active cop would obviously be very high, especially if we can protect him. How much are we willing to sacrifice to prove or disprove him? We could confirm him straight away by lynching either him or jerub; both costing us a maximum of one town and resulting in one scum dead. Either way we should be able to go to night either one scum shorter or blocking him. In this case there is a relatively small risk of scum being able to NK due to blocks.
The no lynch option, then; If we do this, we lynch nobody until a) someone dies or b) SF investigates everyone. When either of these two things have happened, we lynch SF either to confirm his results or because he's the unblocked person and thus by far most likely to have killed someone. This has a higher chance of scum being able to NK, leading to more confusion (especially if SF really is cop.)
The "lynch Joubert" option, then; This essentially boils down to asking whether the chance of Joubert being scum plus the chance of scum NK:ing with one less person at night is higher than the chance of scum NK:ing at a no lynch (at least measured in "average dead townies").

-> Math begins here! <-
With a no lynch: Assuming that Korts and SF aren't scum, there are three scum to be divided over three pairs, plus jerub. Now there are two ways of doing this; I'll do both for overviewability. The first involves not counting myself in the possible scum (which I can do but you can't). I then know there are two scum among the remaining six people, and thus a one in five chance (20%) of them being paired together. The other way is strictly numbers; there's then a two in seven chance for either scum to pair up with jerub, plus a one in five chance to pair up with each other if they don't get to sit next to jerub. 17/35 means 48.5% chance of a NK if SF is cop.

With a Joubert lynch (pairing Korts with jerub); assuming SF is cop, the scum then can't NK if Joubert is scum. If Joubert is town, we have the one in five chance again of scum being paired up.

Actually, looking at these numbers, I'm starting to think that lynching someone really IS the best way to go (if you don't want to take a stand and lynch jerub or SF). The risk of an awkward NK (ie NK and SF really is cop) drops from almost 50-50 to 20% even if Joubert is town, and if he's scum, they pretty much can't NK. I clearly didn't think this through/didn't do the math earlier.

Note: These numbers are invalid if there's an unblockable scum or Korts or SF is scum. I assumed three scum. Just something to keep in mind. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. They should be correct apart from that, I think.

Opinions about this?

Mod: I support an extension of deadline, if only by a couple of days.[/b]

I'm ok with a Joubert lynch. I'm pretty sure SF is faking his claim, but I'm uncertain enough to acknowledge the possibility and let him live for now. He likely won't be able to do more than kill a townie before lynched. I'm semi-ok with a no lynch also, strictly because I know I'll be able to block jerub (which isn't a valid argument for the rest of you.)

[Cavebear with a toothache]

He's a logical choice for a jeru partner, if jeru is scum.

Because I tried to get him lynched pretty much all day until BM suggested SF would break his PR? >_> Also,

FoS

for trying to direct the cop.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Fair enough, but I don't see myself as a "logical choice for a jeru partner". I saw myself as one of the loudest proclaimers of a jerub lynch all day (until just recently), and not someone "following along". Consider this an "I object to deciding who SF should investigate." That person would be the obvious target tonight.

What makes me suspicious of you is your stand on the no-lynch. If SF really is cop, a no lynch would out not just Jeru, but also the rest of the scum.

Oh yeah, forgot to talk in detail about this in my summary... As well as going through all the details in my head... Let's say SF is town, we no lynch, and someone dies. 3 scum, six town left. We then lynch SF, who turns out to be town. We then know Jerub is scum. Or we lynch him and he's scum, in case we've lynched a scum. If he's cop, he will have a useful result - either clearing someone or pointing someone out as scum. If he clears someone, we'll let that person block jerub, shuffle the pairs around and go to night. Night should follow with no NK:s, and we should be able to go from there. If he found scum, we know all the scum (scum must* be paired together) and win. So yeah, I guess a no lynch is viable, too. A little more room for unknown factors is all, and I generally dislike unknown factors.

*Assuming that there are three scum and that none of them are unblockable and that Korts is town etc.

But anyway; if there are no unblockables or otherwise things that mess this up (EG Korts being scum or there being four scum or something), I think winning this will be pretty easy pretty much no matter what we do. If any of these assumptions are wrong, we're in a bit of a tighter spot, but we should still be able to rely on either jerub or SF being scum. So still not such a bad place to be. Unless SF is an insane cop. That'd be interesting. Let's hope he's not.

Let's just do something and see if the situation requires some more thinking later on.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

But what made you change your mind about Jerub's lynch?

The part where SF "forgot" to mention that him breaking his PR wouldn't lead to a mod response ever. That was what pushed me over to consider the chance of SF being cop, with all the benefits that implies, was small enough that it wouldn't outweigh the chance of lynching jerub. Basically, I don't think there's much of a chance at all that SF is telling the truth.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Hmm, having one person inactive would be pretty good, wouldn't it? Unless the person is actually actively lurking scum, we could just treat it as if that person wasn't around, leaving us with even pairs.

Would someone (theoretically) ask for a replacement, not post in the thread, and then use their night ability to kill someone? I mean, that would be very uncool and unsportsmanlike.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

it would be uncool and unsportsmanlike of the town not to wait for a replacement.

Well, not untrue, but it's not like it's unheard of to not wait for replacements. I'm in another game right now where there has been a LOT of inactivity and replacements, so maybe I'm just hardened/scarred. >_>

Basically, for me it boils down to not minding waiting a little while for a replacement, but not wanting to set the entire game on hold for a week or longer just to wait for a replacement. If we do that we risk people losing interest, methinks.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

BM is still active on the site and still hasn't officially been replaced. On the off-chance he's scum, treating him like he's not around and leaving him unpaired...

Yeah, that's what I'm worried about. We don't need the extra uncertainty.

Mod:

Will we go to night without a replacement? If so, is there any chance of you officially taking BM "out of the game awaiting replacement" or something? If you're planning on/hoping to replace BM tonight, will you allow his replacer time to read the game and send in a night action before going to day?

BM, are you still reading this? If you're not replaced, could you send in a night action tonight while awaiting the replacement?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

...But I want to know SensFan's alignment... >_<
Apart from that, this day could have ended a looong time ago, and I'm pretty bored of going through the alternatives over and over again. If we want to keep it up, we could PM MeMe again. I think that's about it when it comes to things we can do.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

I don't mind keeping playing, but I know from experience that when some of the players of a game (generally speaking at least, but I'd think it'd apply to mafia as well) start to find the game boring, the game as a whole becomes less fun. It's just not the same to play with people who force themselves to play.

I can't remember about lovo being prematurely lynched and I don't see it now, what was that about?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Lovo got lynched without having the majority of votes. He was only at L-1 when it happened. I mentioned it somewhere in one of my posts quite a while back when day 2 started.

Oh, right, I remember now. Yes, that was a bit awkward... But mistakes happen, and if no-one realizes it (including the player whose vote is wrong), there's not much the mod can do about it if it's too late.

I'm fine with long mafia games. If you really want to play, I wouldn't mind hanging on if you can convince/replace the rest.

Same here.

Wait - game's not officially ended yet, k.

I'm not sure, but shouldn't one of the big mod people declare the game finished first?

While I don't think we need official approval to abandon a game, we shouldn't do anything until we know how many who wants to keep on going. If just a few people want to quit, they should probably just be replaced, if possible.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Wait, jerub, you were a GF? So does that mean someone else really was a cop? That might have caused some troubles when it came to blocking. Also... Immunity to cults? Scum immune to NK:ing? This wasn't exactly an all-RB setup, was it? Or were those just red herrings to mislead the mafia? >_>

I was a roleblocker, exact same pm as ting =) (phone sex and everything). And yeah, you would've had a good shot at staying alive if we'd lynched SF; you'd be all but confirmed. And if we have a cop and you're a GF... Yeah, wow. Of course, we came VERY close to lynching you, and that wouldn't have been so good from your perspective.

Oh, and if anyone now has some spare time, I'm in a pretty nifty game that desperately needs a replacer (we're stuck at night 2 until we get a replacer). PM Rosso Carne if you want in. [/shameless plug]

[Cavebear with a toothache]

BM: Wait, so why did you suggest SF break his PR, if you knew it wouldn't lead to any repercussions/comments/modkills from the mod? I mean, it looks to me like your best bet was to get SF lynched, thereby semi-confirming jerub. Convincing SF to breaking his PR might have accomplished this, but that doesn't add up with you wanting someone new to defend Sensfan...?

Also, how did Khelvaster mess with the setup? Not sure I caught that. Lastly, it seems to me that it's perfectly clearly stated in SF's role pm that jerub's the GF, not SF?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

...So THAT'S why you wanted to keep going? Well, it looks like you would've been blocked tonight anyway (I think? Shanba?) (or were you unblockable?) and probably staring down a lynch sooner or later judging from the late but reasonably popular "lynch Joubert" option, but it would've been fun to see how the scum reacted once they realized that someone other than them killed someone.