Mini 578 - Mistery at Montescuro - Game Over!

[mikeburnfire]

Ah, my good scum friend Yosarian. How fare you? I recognize Guardian and Coron as well. I hope this game is treating you well.

It'll take me awhile to work my way into this game, but for now I propose we disband the two most populous wagons and lynch Guardian.

unvote, vote Guardian.

[mikeburnfire]

Your foul attack on the duck, mostly.

[mikeburnfire]

Because he is a very good player!

[mikeburnfire]

I mean that you are suspicious for attacking him for insufficient reasons and for reasons that can apply to multiple players. Also for your indifference between killing duck and nair.

[mikeburnfire]

Hmmn.

unvote, vote DarlaBlueEyes

[mikeburnfire]

Joudas, you seem to be angry. Is it because I've bumped your scumpartner up from being in the "minority" to "a viable candidate"?

Of course, Dasquian is expressing even more irritability at my move. "Putting us in a bad situation" just seems like his way of attacking me because he doesn't like me moving my vote from Guardian to DBE.

I don't want Near lynched. I'd like to pressure DBE more.

[mikeburnfire]

Too many people want to lynch Near, IMO. Perhaps there's a good reason for it that I didn't pick up, being the replacement and all, but I think it's too strongly pushed, and a lot of people are just saying "Near is scum and I won't pursue anyone else until he's lynched".

[mikeburnfire]

What the hell Coron. We have several people with 3+ actual votes, and you roleclaim because you have 1 vote and one theoretical vote.

I want to abandon my current vote and vote you now.

[mikeburnfire]

No, you know what?

unvote, vote Near

Coron's roleclaiming was pointless and the only reason I can understand him doing it so close to deadline is because he wants to cause chaos and disrupt the impending Near lynch. I predict them being scum together.

[mikeburnfire]

To disrupt the speed of the game to discuss how plausible your sudden claim is.

Please explain how your claiming benefits us in any way.

[mikeburnfire]

There are other ways to stop people from voting you that involve

keeping useful abilities to yourself

Points two and three are refuted by the fact that we don't know you're not lying scum.

What does claiming NOW benefit the town? You have no information for us. You are forcing the doctor, should we have one, to make a difficult choice between believing you and deciding if you are worth the protection. You have made us stop discussing who we were going to lynch between Near and DBE, allegedly just so the one person who had their vote on you would stop voting you, in which case you are more focused on your own survival than the good of the town, making you scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Coron, you are lying scum. You are either a mafia tracker, or you are a vanilla mafia pretending. I can just see what's going to happen tomorrow.

"I targeted the person who died during the night."

"I targeted this person (scummate). He did nothing/targeted person not dead."

"I targeted this person (obvious townie). He did nothing."

"I targeted this person. I was roleblocked."

"I targeted somebody, but I don't want to reveal my results because the person I tracked targeted somebody who is not dead, leading me to believe that they are a powerrole who should remain secret."

[mikeburnfire]

Hey, I can dig it.

unvote, vote Coron

[mikeburnfire]

First of all, I'm not "people". I never said you cannot read between sk and mafia. The possibility of a SK is not even being considered by me, and I find your suspecting people of being SKs to be foolish given that there is no evidence they exist.

Near was two votes from a lynch. Do you REALLY think we couldn't have gotten those two votes in four days time without your claim? Rubbish.

I certainly hope you have a reason for this at the end of the game MBF, or I might have to pull your "this player is a good mafia player" card.

If you truly are town, then go ahead and pull my "good player" card. It's be like a blind paraplegic revoking my driver's license.

[mikeburnfire]

As much as I enjoy watching you resort to personal attacks when you run out of serial killer conjecture and excuses for your poor play, it's time to end this day. Your may have a few people fooled, and your claim may keep you alive for awhile, but I don't buy it one bit. If we're both alive tomorrow, expect me to strongly advocate your death.

unvote, vote Near

[mikeburnfire]

I resort to personal attacks because you don't even use any logic in your attacks on me

Yes I do. I can't see you as town because your claiming was illogical and the only reason you have for doing so, excluding self-preservation, seems to be that you think that you, as a tracker, are the most important pro-town role in the game. But you aren't. You can get innocent results on a mafia and you can get guilty results on a cop, doc, or roleblocker. Loosing a tracker is no more important to me than losing a townie. I don't care about your faked results.


Guardian, just.... stop. Everytime you post you look scummy. I don't see what "SK tells" Coron sees from you, but it could be the fact that you don't seems to care who dies.

[mikeburnfire]

Doc could be roleblocked. Multiple killers could target the doc's target. Doc could be naive.

You can laugh if you want to, but I'll take a townie who plays well over a tracker who doesn't anyday.

[mikeburnfire]

Being technically correct is the best kind of correct.

My point is that your claimed role is nothing special-- not dependable and not worth protecting. You can still get innocent results on a mafia and you can get guilty results on a cop or roleblocker. Stop trying to lead the doctor.

[mikeburnfire]

Yosarian, I respect that you would give Coron the benefit of the doubt, but you cannot deny that what he did has no real benefit to the town. You and Coron and I, we're quite experienced at this game, and surely you will agree with me that an investigation role, especially one whose results can be inconclusive, should not out himself Day 1 in the hopes of getting doc protection.

Why would coron claiming tracker get people to unvote Near?

I think he claimed to disrupt the impending lynch. If we suddenly have a lot of chaos and activity, requests for deadline extensions would be given more consideration. There's really no other reason for such a sudden revelation.

Or do you really think that Coron claimed tracker just to get people to vote for HIM so they'd unvote Near? That would not only be terrible scum stratagy...

unless Near is more important than Coron. A Godfather-type or scum powerrole more useful than what he is. He has already said that he considers himself to not be very successful at winning, so maybe he thinks that sacrificing himself to save Near is a good idea.

People like you and MikeBurnFire reacted in a wierd way to his claim, and you're saying that you're reacting like this to his claim because his claim was scummy and his claim was scummy becuase it'd make you react like this. Uhhh....

His claim is weird because it has no pro-town benefits from my point of view, and disrupted the flow of the game.

I liked how Near defended herself and kinda wanted to unvote her. But with DBE's power claim and Coron's attempt to out it (along with his already suspicious action), I'm going to suggest that somebody hammer Near.

[mikeburnfire]

I suppose that's true.

No need to rush.

[mikeburnfire]

One more day wouldn't be enough to shift the entire game. I don't want to vote you, mostly because I don't think you've been very scummy, but given the circumstances as of late and the deadline, I won't likely be moving it. Sorry, but you're going to be the lynch. Nothing personal.

[mikeburnfire]

I can support disbanding the Near wagon, but I do not want to speed lynch Dasquian.

FOS: Guardian.

You know better than to speedlynch in such a manner.

unvote, vote Coron

. Gonna stop supporting the wagon I don't like and start one I do.

[mikeburnfire]

And yes, I am aware of the hypocracy of criticizing Guardian for starting a wagon while starting my own. I don't think either of these wagons are going to go anywhere though.

[mikeburnfire]

I have to go to bed now. I am tired and am unable to make coherent posts. Guardian, I disagree with you on everything so far this game. Coron is scummy, I don't want to lynch Near, I don't think Dasq is suspicious, and I don't want to lynch DBE now that she's claimed a power role, but there's only 8 hours until the deadline. I am not going to pick between the two/three. I am just going to vote Coron. Like voting third-party in an American election, my vote will do nothing, but it is what I support.

[mikeburnfire]

...

[mikeburnfire]

vote: Guardian

[mikeburnfire]

What's that mean?

I didn't know what to say. What happened after I left that night is truly ridiculous.

Are you annoyed that you are responsible for a tracker lyn-

Fuck no. I'm not responsible for the tracker lynch. My vote was on Coron as a protest vote because I didn't want to lynch either of the main candidates. Even though I didn't trust Coron and heavily advocated his lynch, the way in which it was achieved was utter stupidity. He went from zero votes to majority votes in under 12 hours. Had I been awake around this time of deadline I would have unvoted him based on this evidence alone.

Going to respond to this?

Your inability to commit to your suspicions was what I was referring to. Your on-and-off of Near, DBE, Dasq, and Mac mainly. Your explanation of having "minimal preference as to who dies among my top 3/4 suspects" wasn't good enough for me.

My vote on you, Guardian, was because you coerced DBE to reveal her watcher results on Dasq. But now I remember that watchers don't watch what their target does, just the people who target their target. I got tracker and watcher confused.

Unvote

for now.

[mikeburnfire]

Mac, DBE, and near, why did you let guardian's insistance lead your hand? - PyroDwarf

Actually, Mac was the one who empowered Guardian to switch to Coron. It was only after Mac assured Guardian that Near would be lynched anyway if there wasn't enough support on Coron that he started strongarming it.

Anyway, I'm kinda not really suspicious of Guardian right now. Why push for a Coron lynch when he could have chosen between Near and DBE, yah? Near is not confirmed, but definitely likely to be town. DBE's claim is null for me. I might vote Mac later, though I don't see any real evidence for a mac-duck scumgroup.

Sleep now.

[mikeburnfire]

Whatever.

[mikeburnfire]

Coron's play made no sense and had no pro-town benefit. The closest theory I could come up with is that he was trying to cause chaos and disorder.

[mikeburnfire]

That's because I don't trust him. He's playing his cards close to his chest, and he's trying to force an attack on me right now, saying that I helped whip up the sudden Coron lynch (which I didn't, I just cast the first vote and left) and voting me for trying to lynch a power role (which is easy to do only now that I've been proven wrong).

[mikeburnfire]

You argued it ONCE yesterday, and you never gave a good reason why he COULDNT be scum.
My arguments against him did eventually lead to his death, but I am not the only one who thought his actions were suspicious, as evidence by the fact that he was eventually lynched. Even you admitted yesterday that his claim was weird and a mistake as town. It's funny how strongly you're defending him only after he's dead.

[mikeburnfire]

You protested more than I noticed, Yosarian. I will give you that. But I will not apologize for not understanding Coron's actions. He claimed to be a ambiguous power role for faulty reasons near the deadline, and requested doctor protection. These are actions of a scum.

[mikeburnfire]

I meant that his results would be ambiguous.

Yes, I was hoping for a no-lynch.

Yes, I would have unvoted him before deadline if he was being speedlynched.

[mikeburnfire]

Good grief.

Given the current crop of candidates on the list, Near and DBE, and the impending deadline, I didn't feel comfortable with lynching either of them. I put my vote on Coron because I felt he deserved it more and would have liked to have to have

eventually

lynched him. I didn't want to speed-lynch him.

[mikeburnfire]

Interesting developments.

[mikeburnfire]

Hey now, leaving DBE and Guardian alone isn't such a bad idea, but I disagree that we should lynch MBF!

[mikeburnfire]

DBE should almost unquestionably target me tonight, so she can say who killed me if I die, imho.

then why don't you investigate me tonight and see if I am telling the truth.

How about I not waste an investigation?

[mikeburnfire]

With one dead tracker a claimed cop and watcher, there shouldn't be any more investigative roles. So why are you trying to out the protective roles, Guardian?

MBF, lynch macvenger. What do you think?

What is the case against mac? I must have missed it...

It bothers me that you apparently never even considered the possibily he might have been telling the truth.

I did consider it, but I didn't consider it seriously, as I didn't expect an experienced player to do such a strange and incautious play.

You really would rather no-lynch on day 1, rather then either lynch a claimed vanillia or rather then at least try to lynch someone else? Why do you think that's a pro-town stratagy?

Because the graveyards are full of indispensable townies.

In fact, why vote Coron if you wanted a no lynch? Was the purpose to get a no lynch without looking like you supported it?

Mike, other players are asking good questions, why place a vote on anyone if you wanted a no lynch?

I was expressing my distrust of Coron and letting everybody know that I would have gone after him intently the next day.

--------------------------

I've been indecisive about Guardian and DBE's claims. On one hand, watcher and tracker go together in most games. Add to that fact that Guardian has been out-there most of the game. If he's scum, he's got guts by sticking his neck out for the Tracker lynch and now attempting to push a Watcher lynch. His claim of cop could be a well-improvised way to excuse himself for suspecting Coron and a good reason to suspect DBE.

On the other hand, as soon as Guardian claimed, DBE believed it, saying that his .01% doubt is correct, and suggesting to be investigated. Her watcher claim could be something that her and her scummates decided would be best. Either get a solid claim, or out the real watcher.

But back to the other hand, Guardian has been discrediting DBE's claim while at the same time believing it. Even now he's voting her, but telling her to investigate him.

So, I don't trust either of them. Instead, I'm going to vote Yosarian, who is the person I suspect the most who has not claimed an investigative role.

vote:Yosarian

[mikeburnfire]

You keep saying "he's an experenced player", and he is, but dosn't that show he wouldn't so something as stupid as claim tracker as scum for no good reason on day 1?

As scum, he would have had reasons. Town or not, his actions have led to other claimed investigative roles.

A no lynch on day 1 is one of the worst things that can happen to the town. It's not as bad as lynching a power role on day 1, but it's worse then pretty much any other outcome. And I'm SURE you know this;

If you're trying to make the case that it's better to lynch a townie Day 1 than to not lynch at all, I disagree.

I can't imagine an experenced player like you making such a bad play as pro-town as to delibratly and stealtily try to cause a no-lynch on day 1.

I think I was pretty transparent in my actions, as I admitted my vote was useless when I made it.

You've certainly given no actual reasons to suspect me.

.. said the person who suspects me for not believing a fishy claim and wanting to avoid a townie lynch Day 1.

[mikeburnfire]

So I take it that you are just gonna lash out?

Interesting.

[mikeburnfire]

ok.

[mikeburnfire]

There's no logical reason a scum claiming tracker would cause a pro-town person to claim, unless it was a pro-town tracker.

Don't be so narrow minded, my dear Yosarian. Yes, scum can use a tracker claim to out a real tracker, but they can also use it to find a cop or force a doc's hand. If a player suddenly starts to suspect somebody who claimed tracker, then they could easily determine that that person is a cop. We can already see something similar happening here with Guardian and DBE.

Uh...you never said, yesterday, that you were voting Coron because you wanted to cause a no-lynch.

Well, I didn't think a no-lynch was going to happen, but it is what I wanted.

THERE WAS NOTHING FISHY ABOUT HIS CLAIM.

I disagree, as did Guardian, Mac, and DBE.

Now, are you going to explain why you're voting me

because I think you are scum, possibly with one of the claimed investigators (DBE).

[mikeburnfire]

Guardian, it seemed to me that you were mad that DBE was leading you, but then you turned around and started leading her.

Why would a cop react like that? There's no reason a tracker and a cop can't be in the same game.

I present this line to you from Guardian:

Tracker + Cop to me didn't make a whole lot of sense, and Coron's bullshit play made me decide to try and get him lynched.

And there's certanly no reason for a doc to react to a info role claim.

Uh, yeah. There is. He would use his protection ability on him.

Why? Why would you rather lynch no one instead of lynching, say, DBE, who you now think is scum? Or, you know, lynching someone else? Anyone else?

Near and DBE were the people on the block. At the time I didn't think Near was scum and DBE claimed to be an investigative role. I didn't want to lynch either of them. But it was too close in the deadline to try to speedlynch somebody else.

And I'm going to preemptively answer the question that you will undoubtedly ask: "Why didn't you suspect DBE's ambiguous claim as much as Coron's clear one?". It was not Coron's claim I was suspicious of, but the way he made it. DBE made her claim to prevent herself from being lynched at deadline. Coron allegedly made his to get two people to stop suspecting him even though he was in no danger of being lynched.

You do agree that day 1 no lynches are bad for the town, right?

I will agree to this point if YOU agree that I shouldn't lynch somebody that I think is town.

The reasons you GAVE for calling Coron scum ware pure and completly crap logic.

You are ignoring the fact that enough people believed this logic to lynch Coron, crap or not.

Which is part of the reason that, well, everyone is suspicious of you.

A little suspicion is healthy. The only people voting me are you and Guardian, and Guardian not only agree with my reasons, but played a big hand in speedlynching Coron.

Uh, DBE, you mean the person I was trying to lynch yesterday while you were lynching the tracker?

Yep. Either him or Guardian. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two was lying scum and you were connected to 'em.

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, now you're just ignoring facts. Guardian just said that Coron's claim and play made him try to get him lynched. It's all there in black and white. What do you mean he "didn't do anything to tip his hand"? HE PUSHED THE SPEEDLYNCH.

Well, yeah, but that dosn't give him away during the day.

But is still advantageous to the mafia.

False. DBE had not yet claimed an investigative role, she just vaugly hinted that she had some kind of power role.

Acknowledged.

And it was clearly not too close to the deadline to try to speedlynch someone else.

Yeah, and we see where it got us.

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense

That's a broad generalization, but in this specific scenario, Yes.

I think that lynching a claimed townie is better then a no lynch,

That was NOT what I asked. Should I, or should I not, lynch somebody that I think is town?

So? Sometimes crap logic tricks the town into mislynching.

And sometimes somebody protown is the one who spins that logic.

...and I note you're still refusing to give any actual reasons to either suspect me of anything or link me to anyone.

I think that, given the last two pages, my actions have

become

justified.

[mikeburnfire]

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense.

I'm assuming this sentence was meant to be the other way around, yes?

[mikeburnfire]

I haven't made a case for lynching Yos yet, I've been busy defending myself from his flawed arguments. I'll probably get around to rereading and pulling things I found suspicious later.

[mikeburnfire]

I've already refuted/explained away most of these arguments, but let's do it again.

1. Are referring to refusal to lynch the two candidates I didn't feel were scummy?
2. I didn't buy his bullshit claim.
3. What reasons have I "changed"? The theory you mention was only one of the possibilities I considered.
4. This is the second time you've ignored my question.

Should I, or should I not, lynch somebody that I think is town if the only alternative is no lynch?

5. No, YOU instantly blamed me and Guardian for Coron's death, and I defended myself.
6. Your arguments are shit and are reason enough for me to leave my vote on you.
7. Explain.
8. I'm expressing my suspicions as I have them.

The fact alone that yos was pushing for a lynch on me yesterday should be proof enough we are not aligned.

Because Yos would never be the kind of person to distance, right?

[mikeburnfire]

1. My actions did contribute to the death of the tracker. So? Just because I'm wrong about somebody doesn't make me scum.

2. Yes, there was reason for me to believe the claim was bullshit. An investigative role outting himself day 1 so close to the deadline with no real justification is suspicious.

3. Explain

4. I disagree. You're arguing that I should have lynched Near because it was better than no lynch, but you have given me no reason why she is scum. Also,

Don't you understand that no-lynching day 1 and then lynching person X day 2 is just worse for the town then lynching person X day 1?

I was trying to lynch Coron on Day 1 but nobody would join me. I was TRYING to get X lynched Day 1. What I did not want was a speedlynch on X. There is a difference.

5. If you're talking about my immediate vote today, I've already explained that I misunderstood what Guardian asked of DBE.

6. But they are shit, as I have been able to respond to each of your points, and the only thing you can do is repeat the same points again anyway.

7. I would like you to explain your previous statement "you keep shifting your justifaction about why you did what you did, and none of the reasons you give really make sense". I would like to know what you are referring to in this instance. If you cannot give me examples, then I would like you to stop accusing me of this.

8. Okay, I'll give a reason. I think you're attacking me unjustly. Yes, I heard Coron's claim of Tracker and thought it didn't make sense. I didn't know what his intentions could have been as scum, but his reasons he gave for doing it as town didn't make any sense. So I voted him. I voted him and VEHEMENTLY pushed for his lynch. But it didn't take.

Then deadline came. I could have voted for Near or DBE, who were close to lynch. But I got really good vibes from Near, and I wanted to give DBE some room after her claim. I put my vote on Coron, as I intended to keep pushing his lynch the next day. I did not intend to have him speedlynched. Now you are framing this as if it was all my fault and that it is 100% proof that I am scum.

Now, I want an answer to this:

That piece of crap logic, right there, is more then enough.

DBE said that you two could not be aligned because you pushed for her lynch. I explained that this is not any proof because mafia partners can distance themselves. You call craplogic. What about this is craplogic? Are you saying that you are incapable of distancing yourself?

Are you guys serious in believing all this from Yosarian? Which argument/s of his do you agree with, Mac and DBE? You can't just say

and vote me. I want to know why.

Dasquian, I admit that I didn't want to lynch somebody I thought was town and that I would have preferred to no lynch. Yosarian keeps arguing that it's okay to lynch somebody if you cannot confirm that they are a townie, just as long as

somebody

gets lynched. I disagree. If you still want to vote me for this reason, then so be it. If Near turns out to be town in endgame, I expect an apology from both of you.

[mikeburnfire]

Plain townie is more dispensable than a tracker, but not by much. And a townie who I think is townie is a worse lynch than a tracker who I think is scum.

And about his lynch being more useful? Bullshit. If he's town, then his lynch is harmful. Common sense. We can still get information from his bandwagon without killing him.

No lynch is not always an anti-town play, and given my other options I felt is was the best choice. I could have vote no lynch, but I chose not to. How are my messages mixed? I'm pretty simple on this. I wanted him lynched, but I didn't want him speedlynched while I was asleep.

DBE, you haven't given me much to respond to, so I really can't refute your vote.

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, and I'm at L-1 right now, just so I don't get stealth hammered.

[mikeburnfire]

I don't consider it suspicious and appreciate the much-needed breathing room.

[mikeburnfire]

1. Coron was suspicious and I pushed for his lynch. He came up Tracker, so suspicions on me are expected. But I am not scum, and you do not have any proof that I am. You are closing your eyes to the possibility that I am town and do not acknowledge that I am refuting lots of your arguments.

2. How many times to I have to repeat myself? Coron claimed at a strange time trying to sequester doc protection right before the deadline and his reason for doing so was weak.

3 and 7. I'll admit that I wasn't sure what Coron was trying to do, just that I thought it was scummy and that I saw no pro-town reasons for his actions.

Yesterday, the only real reason you gave was the illogical "Coron claimed in order to prevent Near from being lynched". Today, you first changed that to "Coron might claimed to draw doc protection", then when that didn't fly, you changed it to "Coron might have claimed in order to fish for the cop".

I call bullshit. I said the doc protection thing immediately after Coron claimed.

What does claiming NOW benefit the town? You have no information for us. You are forcing the doctor, should we have one, to make a difficult choice between believing you and deciding if you are worth the protection.

4. Uh, yeah. I did.

Too many people want to lynch Near, IMO. Perhaps there's a good reason for it that I didn't pick up, being the replacement and all, but I think it's too strongly pushed, and a lot of people are just saying "Near is scum and I won't pursue anyone else until he's lynched".

5.

I can't think of any reason why a speedlynch on X day 1 is WORSE then a no-lynch day 1 followed by a continued attack on X day to.

Then you are a fool. We get almost no information from a speedlynch and a continued attack the following day can lead to even more information, plus people can change their suspicions.

6. I am explaining myself in a rational way, but go ahead and keep pretending I'm not. For example, I suggested that ScumCoron could have claimed Tracker to out a cop. You said that there is no reason to believe a cop would react to a tracker claim. I pull a quote from Guardian, our claimed cop, doing this exact thing. You just shrug it off and pretend that you're still right.

8. While I don't have any evidence that you and DBE are linked, it doesn't mean you can't. And Near is relevant to the issue at hand, because you're criticizing me for not lynching her, even though you think she is town. Scum.

[mikeburnfire]

I am voting Yos because I feel he is scum. If you think it's OMGUS, then fine. It's OMGUS. But how does that make me scum?

2. is fairly sensible - I didn't see anything from you suspecting Coron prior to the claim. We all agree that the claim was bad, but I wouldn't lynch someone purely for claiming at a bad time. I've already pointed out my other reasons multiple times, so not going to bother doing it again here.

That's because I DIDNT suspect him prior to claim. And I did keep pushing for his lynch strongly, because I wanted more pressure on Coron because I did not believe his claim, eventually lynching him if I couldn't get a sufficient explanation.

OK, I guess you mentioned the doc thing yesterday too, but you've still had some shifting of reasons.

You and Yosarian are very alike. You both like to attack me for "shifting reasons" but come up with no evidence of the sort.

Why did you push Near's wagon for a while yesterday and then hop off it if you thought he was town the whole time?

Two reasons. First, I was still trying to make sense of Coron's actions, and him attempting to disrupt the Near lynch was the best I could think of at the time. Second, for awhile I bought into that whole "lynching a claimed townie is better than no lynch". But then I realized that such line of thinking is stupid.

[mikeburnfire]

I didn't want to lynch either of the main candidates, and proclaimed that my vote would be only a protest vote. I didn't say I wanted "no lynch" at the time because I figured that one of Near or DBE was going to be lynched anyway.

But the more significant "shifting reason" is how you are now suddenly claiming that you had thought Coron claimed tracker just to try and out a cop; it dosn't really make any sense as a scum tactic, since it's certanly possible for there to be both a cop and a tracker, but more importantly, you never mentioned that yesterday and I strongly suspect that you only thought of it after Guardian claimed.

I don't recall ever saying that it was what I thought he was doing, just something that he could have done. And you're right- I didn't think of this reason until Day 2.

Failing to lynch on day 1 is really bad for the town. Most likely the scum just get a free kill, probably someone who wasn't under suspicion at all, and the town, after spending weeks trying to lynch and failing, finds themselves back in the exact same position with the exact same suspects, and no more information then they had the day before. It's just not a good situation.

Perhaps so, but if Near is a townie and my unvoting her saved her (hypothetical here) then the town would have one more pro-town person still alive the next day. And I disagree when you say that without lynches the town cannot get any new information. It reminds me of a game that I played with only 5 players-- where I nailed the two scum Day 1 just because I watched how people voted and bandwagoned one player.

How could the town get LESS information from a speed-lynch then a no-lynch?

On lynches that get built up I can see why people vote, how hesitant they are to vote, how eager they are to vote, and how they might try to subtly sabotage the lynch. On deadline speedlynches where people just go "ShitDeadlineHurryLynchLynchLynch" all of this information is gone.

A speedlynch that leads to a dead scum gives the town a huge amount of information.

I'll give you that, but a speedlynch that leads to a dead townie gives nothing useful.

Bad as the Coron lynch was, illogical as it was, I think it gave us a lot of information; information about you, information about who voted on it and who didn't, I think that Near's reluctance to join it gave us really key information about him, and of course information about Coron's alignment.

We could have gotten most, if not all of this information, without killing Coron. And then we'd have his tracker result too.

If there'd been a no-lynch, some random pro-town player would have died that night, and the next day you would have still been attacking Coron, I still would have been arguing against you, other people still would have been attacking Near, ect. A no-lynch means that you're basically in the same boat you were in before, except with one less townie; it's demoralising and destructive.

Yes, thank god that speedlynch happened. Otherwise we would have had a dead townie! Oh wait, we do have one of those. And a dead tracker to boot. If we had more time to discuss everything (EG another day), I might have eventually been convinced that Coron wasn't scum and we wouldn't have a dead investigator.

Anyway, I'm getting tired of having my vote on Yosarian called "OMGUS", but I've been thinking about this game all night while I was at work, and I realized that it's not just Yosarian. I've forcefully (and sometimes unfairly) attacked Coron and Guardian-- all three of which are people that I recognized as having played with them before. That's when I realized that I'm just really super-suspicious of experienced players. I guess because I hate the idea of somebody outsmarting me. So, I apologize. I've been playing with more paranoia than logic for most of the game.

I acknowledge that I've been very suspicious for my role in Coron's lynch, but I feel I've defended myself thoroughly through my explanations. I still say that Coron's claim made no sense and that he deserved more pressure than he got, but I did overdo it. And I still say that I would have preferred a no-lynch to a person I thought was a townie. I won't apologize for that, nor do I agree with Yosarian's assertion that speedlynches are good for the town.


I'm going to have a busy weekend, so I may not be around as much, but hopefully I'll be able to come back and play better.

unvote Yosarian

, because not only was my initial voting of him unwarranted, but because I don't want you fools to speedlynch him while I'm gone, find out he's town, and blame me. Again.

[mikeburnfire]

I can hold onto this assertion easily. See my above hypothetical scenario.

The town gets its information from bandwagons, investigations, accusations, revelations, and lynches. We don't NEED lynches to get information, there are plenty of other ways during the day.

Yes, I think we should lynch today. I thought we should lynch yesterday too, but my options were limited. I don't think no-lynching is optimal play, but to me, it is better than lynching somebody I think is town. I doubt anybody will be able to change my mind on this.

[mikeburnfire]

What?

[mikeburnfire]

I wasn't suspicious of Dasquian because I didn't consider him as experienced. No offense intended, but I can't recall ever playing a game with him.

As for your question about "no lynch champion", I can't answer it. All I can do is repeat what I believe: that no-lynching, while sub-optimal play, is still better than lynching somebody I think is town.

[mikeburnfire]

you cant point us to places where you've espoused this view in the past?

No, I don't think I can. I'm sure there are instances where I've refused to participate in a deadline lynch just for the sake of lynching, but I don't remember any recent examples.

dasq's join date is earlier than yours... you didn't 'consider him experienced'..?

but I am? o.O

Heh. Didn't notice that until you said it. I haven't seen Dasquian post around the site much. Maybe he's just low-key.

Yosarian makes a good point, and I acknowledge that there is information to be found from speedlynches. But given how easy it is for a scum contribute to a speedlynch, lynch a townie, then shrug off his sudden vote as "just trying to avoid no-lynch", and how it prevents some players from being involved, and how a townie is more likely to be speedlynched, I still stand firmly against them.

If we didn't know Coron's alignment now, the lynch wouldn't be nearly as informative, in my opinion.

We would still have a lot of information, and the tracker information, which could have been used to confirm Guardian or some other pro-town role. Or to catch a mafia red-handed. Or to catch a lying mafia who claims a power role. Tracker is a more useful role than I gave credit yesterday.

[mikeburnfire]

Back to L-1...

[mikeburnfire]

Before I go (just in case I get lynched), I'll try to leave the sane townies my suspicions:

Yosarian2 - While I think he is pushing for my lynch too strongly, it is not truly indicative of him being scum. In fact, the way Yosarian has really been intensely attacking me, even when I provide cohesive defenses, is not something I would expect the typical scum to do, which would be hit-and-run poking around. Then again, Yosarian isn't typical.

Dasquian - I get good vibes from him, but I see no evidence in regards to whether or not he is scum.

Guardian - If he is scum, he's the ballsiest scum I've seen in a long time. Pushing the Coron lynch and claiming to be a cop with a dead tracker are not smart plays if he was scum. I believe he is town.

DarlaBlueEyes - Part of me believes that the Watcher claim is something that her and her scumpartners could have decided would be the best to claim during the night. But she could also be legit. I don't have many good vibes, but would not bet one way or the other.

Joudas - Be wary. He hasn't been very active for most of day 2, and I feel he is lying low because there are two pro-town forces strongly clashing.

Macavenger - I couldn't see what everybody was suspicious of at first, but there are signs. He didn't want to be the decider in who would be lynched, and scum don't usually want to be linked to a dead townsperson. Also, he's been on every bandwagon so far, from Near to Coron to me, which indicates opportunism.

Near - Town, almost definitely, or the best scum actor ever.

PyroDwarf - not much of a read here. Pushed Guardian, got off when he claimed. That's about it. Guardian was never a serious candidate, and Pyro has never expressed his interest in being a part of the big-name lynches. He definitely deserves more attention.

Singing Librarian - similar to Pyro Dwarf. He gunned for Near's lynch, then Guardians, then unvoted when he claimed. Now has hopped on my wagon.

Overall, I have lots of suspects but nothing really solid, unfortunately. Most, if not all, of the activity today was just Yosarian pushing for my lynch and me defending myself, which is very unhelpful in the long run. Yos2, Macavenger, Dasquian, DBE, and Librarian are on my wagon. There may or may not be scum on this wagon, as it would be easy to just piggyback on Yos's logic for a free lynch, but perhaps even easier to just let the townspeople do it themselves.

Even though I am at L-1, I don't plan on claiming at the current time. I feel that I've defended myself against most points against me, and regardless of whether or not you think I am scum, it would be absolute foolishness to lynch me now and not make use of the rest of the day.

[mikeburnfire]

a mix of bad vibe + Yos2 is just so damn good at scum is making me just want to lynch Yos2.

I know, right? I think it may have something to do with his "Most Cunning Manipulator" award.

MBF: only claim if someone threatens to hammer, as above.

Hammer threat or not, I don't plan on claiming at the current time. Again, I feel that I've defended myself against most points against me and that a lot of the votes on me are for (A) attacking Yosarian without cause, (B) flip-flopping, and (C) preferring no-lynch to perceived townie lynch. I've stopped doing (A), the evidence for (B) is fairly flimsy and the argument for (C) seems to be nothing than a difference of opinion.

His stance on Joudas is a bit curious: be wary of him even though he's been cleared by a cop I claim to believe.

Oops, forgot about that. :>

Sorry if my analysis was incomplete, Mac. I wanted to give my opinion on everybody, so I did a quick skim of your posts.

B) I'd rather it have been a whole town thing, but there was a deadline and pretty clearly no town consensus.

If you'd rather a lynch be a "whole town thing", then why did you participate in the speedlynch of Coron, when doing so prevented several players from being participants or even from giving their opinion?

[mikeburnfire]

I'm not sure I'd consider it opportunistic, but his sudden vote for Mac is not unlike his sudden vote for me- unexplained. I'd like to know why he's going after Mac now. I don't even agree with Yosarian's FOS, because Mac wasn't trying to direct the cop, just saying that if a cop gets scumvibes from a player without any reason to suspect him, investigating him is a good option. I agree.

[mikeburnfire]

Strange for Guardian to suddenly vote Mac, then disappear for a week.

[mikeburnfire]

Erm, yes. Your vote was sudden, whether or not you've been suspicious of him for awhile, you only voted for him recently, and without explaining your actions.

I would think that you would unvote before leaving, given the recent events.

And no, since I am at L-1 and refusing to claim, there is no reason to believe I'll still be here in a week.

[mikeburnfire]

Also, you tacked on that "DBE should watch me tonight" as if you believed that the day would end while you are gone. It is all very suspicious.

FOS: Guardian

[mikeburnfire]

Then I must do my part to help you find other options!

...I say right before I disappear for a few days.

[mikeburnfire]

@MBF: is your refusal to claim supposed to be an insinuation that you are a doctor?

Why do you ask? Are searching for Doctors to kill?

My refusal to claim is nothing more than me refusing to acknowledge that the bandwagon on me has little merit.

[mikeburnfire]

It looks to me like he expected one of two things to happen:
1. Near gets lynched without his help, he gets to keep attacking Coron the next day all day and perhaps get him lynched then, avoids being on a bad wagon at the moment of lynch
2. No-lynch happens, town gets no informaton, he gets to keep attacking Coron the next day.
...
and note that Mike basically admitted to motive #2 here, which is really interesting.

Yep.

if he didn't like the Near wagon, he should have tried to find the town a better wagon, and he should have done it a heck of a lot earlier. Instead, looking back at his posts before that point, you can see that he seems in no rush, that seems to like the way the town was drifting towards a deadline lynch of Near.

This is... wow. Go back and see how I tried to push the town OFF a near lynch and ONTO a DBE wagon before Coron's crazy move.

I'm waiting on MBF to post his thoughts on Dasq, Blueeyes and your case.

I've never really had faith in DBE. I gave her some leeway yesterday after she claimed a power role, but I don't really buy the watcher claim; I think an experienced player helped her conceive it (Dasq would be most likely, considering he said that tracker/watcher combo made sense). I wouldn't mind a DBE lynch today, but I don't want to be on it, considering how I was the one who pushed so hard for Coron's death yesterday.

Dasq? Well, I had good vibes early on, but they are gone now. ABR makes a good argument for Dasq and DBE being on the same team, but I'm not completely sold yet.

As for Yos, I dunno. Could go either way. I'm not really feeling it anymore, and definitely don't want to lynch him today. I'm placing my faith in that he'll eventually stop pushing so much for my death and start helping me find scum.

I still don't see why Guardian is pushing for Mac's death, but I haven't seen him give good explanations for a lot of his votes. He just kinda does it.

Actually, I'm most suspicious about Pyro Dwarf. Considering that most mafia buddies don't want to ALL be on one person's wagon, and considering that the only people NOT on my wagon are ABR (likely town), Guardian (assuming town), Joudas (assuming investigated innocent), Mikeburnfire (obv) and Pyrodwarf, I'd bet Pyrodwarf to be scum. Also, his recent attempt at fishing for a doctor is pretty convincing in itself.

Librarian? Eh.... can't tell. Very late bandwagoning putting me back to L-1. I was explaining myself alot and people were going "eh... I'm not convinced..." so SL's sudden addition to my wagon seems like he was waiting until my lynch was almost inevitable so he could vote and not worry about having to explain it.

Of course, that seems to be the theme lately.

vote: pyrodwarf

[mikeburnfire]

I don't think it's too much of a shot in the dark to say that Dasq, DBE, and Pyrodwarf could be our scumteam, or close to it.

Joudas, I'm pretty sure ABR's suggesting we lynch Dasq, who has NOT claimed a power role.

Can somebody

please

explain to me the case on Mac. I'm sure I've asked this before, so maybe I'm just overlooking it.

[mikeburnfire]

ABR, Why? We have no irrefutable proof that she is scum, only theories. Besides, information can be revealed between now and tomorrow, namely information on our lynch and the mafia's kill or lack thereof. I will not make any promises about who to kill tomorrow.

[mikeburnfire]

RESPONDS

TO

WHAT?

[mikeburnfire]

Well, I think the team is Dasq, DBE, and pyrodwarf. I would be willing to abandon my pyrovote and push dasquian's lynch.

And nobody has given me a good reason to vote Mac yet.

[mikeburnfire]

Yosarian, if I am scum, who are my scummates?

[mikeburnfire]

I ask this question because the case against you is not unwarranted. You have essentially said over the course of the day "MBF is scum, and I will not consider anybody else until he is lynched. Let us lynch him and be done with it".

[mikeburnfire]

Uh, ABR has only made about 5 posts against DBE, and he's voting Dasquian. It's much different.

[mikeburnfire]

Bah! Sarnath'd.

unvote, vote: Dasquian

[mikeburnfire]

Why, are you trying to suggest that you can't be scum because there aren't any likely scummates for you?

I'm not suggesting this. I was just curious because a number of us have given our top three candidates for scum, and you have not. But logically, if there AREN'T any likely scummates for me, then it's very likely that I am NOT scum, yes?

I gave a large number of logical reasons why I think you're more likely to be scum then town.

And when I rebut these questions, you seem to ignore my response. Can I have an answer to the following?:

if he didn't like the Near wagon, he should have tried to find the town a better wagon, and he should have done it a heck of a lot earlier. Instead, looking back at his posts before that point, you can see that he seems in no rush, that seems to like the way the town was drifting towards a deadline lynch of Near.

This is... wow. Go back and see how I tried to push the town OFF a near lynch and ONTO a DBE wagon before Coron's crazy move.

also,

Failing to lynch on day 1 is really bad for the town. Most likely the scum just get a free kill, probably someone who wasn't under suspicion at all, and the town, after spending weeks trying to lynch and failing, finds themselves back in the exact same position with the exact same suspects, and no more information then they had the day before. It's just not a good situation.

Perhaps so, but if Near is a townie and my unvoting her saved her (hypothetical here) then the town would have one more pro-town person still alive the next day.

mbf can you expand on 921, 922? I have the lingering worry that you are scum and as you were going down you wanted to make it look like I was your scum buddy by 'distancing'.

I should be asking you to explain yourself on those posts. You essentially said "VOTE MAC (no information given as to why you would suddenly vote him), see you in a week". Mind you that this was when I was at Lynch-1, and you had previously voted me, then unvoted me later, both without any explanation why. It was as if you forsaw that I would be lynched, then placed your vote somewhere safe before leaving.

When I called you on it, you threatened to hammer me, then said that I would likely still be alive in a week, but gave DBE instructions for what to do at night, as if you knew I wouldn't.

[mikeburnfire]

As the deadline was approaching, I should have tried to find an alternative wagon a heck of a lot earlier? What?

[mikeburnfire]

Yos' case against ABR is tunnel-vision, but ABR's case against DBE and me isn't.

WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY YOS'S CASE AGAINST ABR WAS TUNNEL VISION?

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, okay. Well, I repeat:

ABR has only made about 5 posts against DBE/Dasquian. Yos has made countless against me.

[mikeburnfire]

If you don't respond to an argument I make, you're ignoring me, but when you

repeat the same arguments over and over again and disregard rebuttals,

you're writing too many posts against me.

[mikeburnfire]

AKA,

ad hominem

.

Also, your main reason against me seems to have changde from "getting a power role lynched and frame Guardian" to "preferring no lynch to any lynch" to "staying on Near's wagon too long".

[mikeburnfire]

AKA,

ad hominem.

ad nauseum

[mikeburnfire]

Joudas, we don't need an INFORMATION lynch right now. We would be left with 8 players. 3 of which are scum, and it would be essentially lynch or lose.

Yosarian, you still keep changing what your "biggest issue" with me is to whatever is the hot button issue. And the second reason is just a matter of opinion, and apparently everyone here has a bad opinion. ABR is new, so maybe he'll support me on this.

ABR, is my abandoning of the Near wagon (your predecesor) on Day 1 a bad thing? It almost caused a "No lynch", and Yosarian says that I shouldn't have stopped supporting Near's lynch, even if I thought he was town, because it was better than a No Lynch. Several players have agreed with him. Do you think I am wrong?

[mikeburnfire]

Hey....

...is everybody voting Dasquian mainly because we think DBE is scum, but don't want to lynch her because her watcher role is so useful?

[mikeburnfire]

I'm very amused Dasquian and DBE are proving my point that all that distancing between them was total crap, by both seeming offended that I would implicate the other and post as little as possible about their thoughts on each other.

Check their recent posts, you just can't make this stuff up.

I agree. I don't think much will be able to dissuade me that Dasq and DBE are scum. And I still think there is more reason to believe that Pyro is the third, rather than Yos or Mac.

[mikeburnfire]

Ugh, this recent post by DBE is just so incredibly scummy I can't get my mind around it.

We could very well cut the intermediary and lynch DBE on the spot. Do we have enough support ?

We have some support, but I don't know if it's enough. I'd be on board, though.

[mikeburnfire]

Fact is, I'm not DBE's scum-buddy. I'm not scum at all. But a number of you are playing as though this is so likely that direct conclusions can be drawn from lynching one of us, which I think is dangerous. Particularly when we get stellar logic like "hey, DBE sounds scummy, very tempted to vote Dasquian now".

I freely admit that most of my vote on Dasq comes from suspicion on DBE. I would really like to vote her, but there's always the issue of her watching Guardian, should she be telling the truth. It's complicated....

[mikeburnfire]

Pyrodwarf and, to a lesser extent, Yosarian.

[mikeburnfire]

Actually, even with your vote, Dasquian is only at 3/6 votes, since Guardian, DBE, and ABR unvoted him. DBE, is at 4/6 however, being voted by Yos, Mac, SL, and ABR

unvote, vote: DBE

Now she is at Lynch-1

[mikeburnfire]

... I dont care If the scum wins I will LOL @ all of you for being so dumb as to lynch the tracker & watcher.

Lol...oh, WE were so dumb as to lynch the tracker? Funny, that's not how I remember day 1...

[mikeburnfire]

I guess. Do we have enough support for a Pyrodwarf lynch? 'Cuz if it ain't DBE and it ain't you, that's my favorite choice.

[mikeburnfire]

Remind me why we're taking lynching advice from someone we think is scum?

Because he's not definite scum and he makes a good point.

[mikeburnfire]

If that's true, then I'll leave my vote on DBE.

[mikeburnfire]

Guardian, please return and end this day please.

[mikeburnfire]

No, it's not. DBE's previous playstyle made people want to vote her, so she changed her playstyle from arrogant to remorseful. It doesn't make her any less suspicious. She still helped lynch Coron, even though she pairs watcher and tracker together (if you read between the lines you can see it). Then she hopped on my bandwagon as it was taking off, then Dasquian's under pressure.

It feels like we're just going around in circles here. We can't lynch DBE, scummy as she is, because she's claimed a useful role. We can't lynch her suspected scummate Dasquian because if DBE is town it severely hinders the probability that Dasq is scum. And we can't reach an agreement on who the third scum is.

Joudas or Pyrodwarf, are either of you willing to lynch the claimed watcher today? If not, we're going to have a difficult time getting a lynch at all.

[mikeburnfire]

No, it's not. DBE's previous playstyle made people want to vote her, so she changed her playstyle from arrogant to remorseful. It doesn't make her any less suspicious.

Um...random thought, but isn't that kind of what you did when you were at lynch -1 a few pages ago? You changed your playstyle?

Yes, and it didn't make me any less suspicious. Adapting to survive is just a natural behavior-- it's a null-tell. Perhaps if DBE would actually try to scumhunt here, I'd be less convinced she was scum.

Shocking. Would you jump off a cliff if he told you to?

I'm just saying that IF it's true, I'd prefer DBE over you. And it really does seem to be DBE or you. Unless we have enough people to lynch Pyrodwarf? That would make me happy.

[mikeburnfire]

alright guys bear with me here, what do you think of a ABR/MBF scum team?

Personally, I think it's terrible, as I know I am town and SEVERELY doubt that ABR is scum.

Oh yeah cos you were just trying to so hard to scum hunt yourself, attacking Yos with the OMGUS attack.

I don't like it,

vote MBF [/vote]

....said the person who just launched her own OMGUS attack on her two biggest suspecters.

I don't think you are so innocent yourself, I don't care if they lynch me, Because i'm not sucm and if I die its their own damn problem, but you, you especially seem to NOT want to die.

Well, yes. I do not want to die because, as a pro-town player, my death would be detrimental to the town. Perhaps you should care more.

Notice the wording here, how DBE says "its their own damn problem", as in "it's the town's problem, not mine"

[mikeburnfire]

pyro i think is good lynch.

Why? If it's just the pyro-dasquian connection, why not place your vote on Dasquian, who has more votes?

unvote

. As much as I think DBE is scum, I acknowledge that it's tactically unsafe to lynch the cop-watcher.

[mikeburnfire]

Once again Mike you react hostily to my Vote on you with out giving any sort of defense other than saying I'm just OMGUSing you.

Because you are.

Everybody, I am DarlaBlueEyes. I'll hop on Coron's wagon because he has the most votes. Oops, he was a tracker. Mikeburnfire's wagon has a lot of votes, so I will join too! Oh, now people are disbanding it. I will too. Look! I'm voting Dasquian! This PROVES that we cannot be scum, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for a scum to vote their scumbuddy! HEY! MBF is being mean to me! I'll vote him again!

If you lynch me, you'll regret it! FINE! LYNCH ME! SEE IF I CARE!!! It'll be your own damn fault when I'm dead and proven to be pro-town! Please don't lynch me. FINE LYNCH ME!!!! YOURE ALL A BUNCH OFF STUPID MEANY DOO-DOO HEADS! Good job scum! Town is morons for lynching watcher and tracker! Blah blah blah!

DBE, this is how I see you: unhelpful, opportunistic and hostile, all three of which are behaviors of scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Thank you giving us a well-thought post. Before I jump back on Pyro, I'd like more from Guardian. He's very skittish with his vote. If he wasn't a claimed cop I'd give him more scrutiny. Part of me thinks that by being boisterous and outstanding he's found the best way to play as scum. But it's a suspicion I'm willing to keep in check for now.

[mikeburnfire]

I re-read Pyro and found him suspicious.
I re-read Dasquian, and find him suspicious,

Why do you find them suspicious?

[mikeburnfire]

I agree with ABR on damn near everything he says. Although I believe the scumgroup to be DBE-Dasq-Pyro, his speculation of DBE-Dasq-Yos is also plausible. And while I would like to believe Pyro is scum, the fact is that if I am wrong, we get very little information from his death, as opposed to the amount of information Dasquian or DBE's death would give.

Also, why are people speculating that three investigation roles are impossible? It's unlikely, but definitely plasuible, especially if don't have many other power roles, or power roles on the mafia side.

Either way, I'm going to vote Dasquian now. While I believe it's more likely that DBE is scum, we need her to watch Guardian.

vote:Dasquian

[mikeburnfire]

DBE is essentially bad for the town to keep alive. She's the scummiest person here, she wastes everyone's time and bandwidth, she posts nothing of relevance besides her scummy antics and she wants to make us believe that she didn't even read her role PM (I found Das suspicious so I watched him last night). None of this can be attributed to noobness.

Erm, actually these are mistakes that CAN and HAVE been made by newbie townies in the past.

How long are we going to go around in circles today? Can we please unvote our claimed Watcher, let her watch the cop, and lynch somebody? I don't trust her either, but it's TACTICALLY smart to leave her alive for now. The risk-for-reward is too high. I would rather keep her alive on the off-chance that we're wrong about her. Vote Pyro or Dasquian, please.

[mikeburnfire]

DBE, you just accused the two players who seem the most town to be a scumgroup together. While I'm not saying that it's impossible, it's extremely unlikely. Yes, we lost sight of why we found Near scummy before-- because the initial reasons for voting Near were weak, and because he seemed willing to die before letting Coron die.

Guardian does seem willing to follow ABR, but so do I. He makes a lot of good arguments. And he didn't "immediately attack a claimed power role" as you state he did. He immediately discouraged the impending lynch on me and pushed for Dasquian's lynch. Now please stop being difficult and vote Dasquian, because if we cannot get enough to kill him, you will be the lynch instead. I'm not trying to appeal to fear here, I'm just giving you fair warning.

[mikeburnfire]

If we lynch Dasquin and he's town, what information does that give us, exactally? At least lynching DBE gives us information about if this supposed link with Dasquin is worth following up or not; but lynching Dasquin dosn't really tell us anything about her alignment.

So.... Dasq and DBE look linked. If we lynch Dasquian and he's town, we have no information about DBE, but if we lynch DBE we WILL have information? That makes no sense unless you know that DBE is scum.

[mikeburnfire]

You've already derailed two perfectly good wagons, Albert. First, you derailed the wagon against MBL-scum

Mr Buddy Lee is in this game?!?! :O

[mikeburnfire]

Yosarian, do you REALLY feel like we should lynch our claimed watcher? For all the shit you gave me about killing the tracker, you would think you'd want to test the watcher for one day before killing her, scummy as she is.

[mikeburnfire]

Okay but

I'm not willing to lynch someone I think is probably town here when we seem to have better options.

Isn't that what I did yesterday with Near? You're doing the exact same thing you criticized me for doing yesterday. Isn't a Dasquian lynch more beneficial than a no-lynch, which is what we're going to have if we can't agree..?

If we lynch DBE and she's town, then at least we would know that that "Dasquin is scum because he's linked to DBE" argument is bunk. If we lynch Dasquin and he's town, then that dosn't really give us any information. You see what I mean?

If we lynch Dasq and he's scum though, DBE is almost definitely scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Ah, that's lynch then.

[mikeburnfire]

Why would you want to be killed? This game is irritatingly fun!

Also, we need our cop.

[mikeburnfire]

What...

...the hell...?

[mikeburnfire]

Claiming a cop as a doc is stupid. Guardian wouldn't do that. I suppose Guardian could have targeted himself to test you, but that doesn't exactly seem like the best idea.

[mikeburnfire]

Honestly, I think Guardian's "I targeted myself" is bullshit. He is NOT confirmed sane, not even a confirmed cop, just a confirmed targeting role. DBE is not confirmed to be pro-town, just a watcher who could be scum or town. And, although unlikely, if they are both scum then NONE of this is confirmed.

The way I would see it from a pro-town Guardian's point of view is thusly: I am a cop. The watcher may be scum, but may also be town. If the watcher is scum, I'm going to die anyway and I can't tell the town I targeted myself. BUT if the watcher is town, then the mafia will have to kill her before they kill me. Thus, targeting myself is stupid because I will have confirmed the role of a dead person.

We definitely need to discuss these events more. No-lynch is the likely option, but forget the deadline-- that's in a month from now. As town as Near was, I get absolutely terrible vibes from ABR, and I've gone from trusting a few people (Guardian, Joudas, ABR) to trusting no one.

[mikeburnfire]

Why would the mafia not kill Guardian? Best guesses?

- A1) Guardian is scum, but DBE is town.

--- Why would Guardian target himself with a non-killing scum role to confirm DBE?

- A2) Guardian is scum, and so is DBE

--- This could explain why Guardian 'targeted himself'. He doesn't give us anything useful today, and he can make his scum partner seem almost confirmed.

- B1) Guardian is town, and so is DBE

--- Scum did not want to run the risk of being seen by the Watcher. This option is unlikely because even if they were worried about being seen by a watcher, a cop is an even bigger threat.

- B2) Guardian is town, but DBE is scum

--- This would require DBE to be a scum watcher, unlikely but plausible.

I see that as I am typing this that Joudas is thinking about [Scenario A1], in which Guardian is scum roleblocker and targeted himself to be confirmed by DBE. Hmmn..... If Guardian is scumroleblocker, and targeted himself to prove DBE, he could have NOT targeted anybody last night and then, when DBE said nobody targeted him, said that he targeted himself and get her lynched.

[mikeburnfire]

Hmmn... a stipend to my logic thus far. We have not ruled out the possibility of a doctor from last night. If DBE was lying about being a watcher (if she is scum, then this is very likely, but would require Guardian to be lying too), she would have had to worry about a doctor targeting Guardian that would be able to destroy their elaborate plan.

This leads me to believe that, at the very least, one of these two are telling the truth. They cannot both be scum together. My Scenario A2 is ruled out.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF wtf, I never SAID I was confirmed sane. I said my sanity was VERY questionable.

I never said you did. I just wanted to emphasize that we didn't know.

Also, Are you saying that a scum watcher is impossible? I admit it's unlikely, but wouldn't that make for an interesting game?

[mikeburnfire]

The problem with your logic, Guardian, is that you DIDNT get a result from the mod, and even if you did, an innocent result on yourself wouldn't help you determine if you're sane or naive. Targeting somebody else would. You may be town and truly believe that what you did was the best option. But I don't think it was the best course of action, and I am not convinced you're not scum.

Oops, I forgot this is a mini normal. I'm so used to playing mini themes

DBE and Guardian being both scum is SEVERELY unlikely because they ran the risk of having their plans compleley fuddled by a protection role, which would almost DEFINITELY existed if they were both lying. I will not entertain this theory at all.

[mikeburnfire]

- A1) Guardian is scum, but DBE is town.

--- Why would Guardian target himself with a non-killing scum role to confirm DBE?

- A2) Guardian is scum, and so is DBE

--- This could explain why Guardian 'targeted himself'. A protection role would completely ruin their plans.

- B1) Guardian is town, and so is DBE

--- Scum did not want to run the risk of being seen by the Watcher. This option is unlikely because even if they were worried about being seen by a watcher, a cop is an even bigger threat.

- B2) Guardian is town, but DBE is scum

--- This would require DBE to be a scum watcher, which we don't have because this is a mini normal

Huh. I guess DBE is town.

[mikeburnfire]

You don't think ANYBODY on the scumteam would have brought up the likelyhood of a doctor, even though we had talked about it during the day, and there was a lot of talk of doctor fishing?

[mikeburnfire]

That seems terribly unlikely, ABR. Not to mention that both of them being scum would mean that TWO scum FAKEclaimed INVESTIGATIVE roles on DAY TWO. It's just... it's one of the worst plays scum could do.

Also, why SingingLibrarian? Because of his resistance to the Dasquian lynch? That definitely might have made him look pro-town, and he wasn't under suspicion from anybody, really. But why leave the cop and the watcher alive? It would have been easy to kill the watcher DBE, have her revealed as town, and make Guardian look hella suspicious.

The more I reason this out in my head, the more Guardian looks like scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Simply put, DBE is practically confirmed town, and it bothers me that some random townie was selected to die instead of one of the two information roles.

I'd like to hear what Yos and Pyro have to say before we proceed with no-lynch.

[mikeburnfire]

Guardian, I've just done a thorough read of the game and I must say that you seem town. Against you, you are on large bandwagons, then jump off, let them get to L-1, then threaten to hammer. But you seldom follow through with it. In particular, the DBE lynch as of recent. DBE was put at L-1. You express an interest in hammering. ABR encourages it. I encourage it. You back away. I encourage it more, but the wagon disbands. It would have been easy to kill DBE right then and there. No watcher, no tracker, no problem.

You could have always left DBE alive with the purpose of confirming yourself as a scum roleblocker impersonating cop, but that would be unnecessarily complex. It's so much easier to just kill her.

Here is my vote-by-vote compilation from the game. It holds only the most prominent wagons, so the votes against Pyro and others who wagon never took off have been excluded. Dead townies names in green, as well as DBE's. Skip ahead because I compile all the wagons.

Yosarian votes Near (1) early, randomly
Near votes Yosarian (1) jokingly
Mac FOS Near for 'warping my brain'
Guardian FOS Near

Singing Librarian votes Near (2) for bad logic

EvilGorillaz FOS Near for bad logic

Yosairan states he has no reason to unvote Near

Dasquian FOS Near for bad logic and backpeddling

Phox FOS Near for distracting posts

Guardian votes Near (3) for being unhelpful
Phox votes Near (4) 'after looking back'
Joudas FOS Near for lack of defense/reasoning
Mac Votes Near (5) for silence and uselessness

Dasquian states he is willing to vote Near

People on Near wagon:

Yosarian,

SingingLibrarian

, Guardian,

Phox

, Mac

People willing to jump on:

Joudas,

Dasquian

- Near makes a defense -
Guardian unvotes Near (4) for being townlike
Yosarian unvotes Near (3) for un-lurking

Dasquian leaves his vote on Near

Phox unvotes Near (2)

Coron replaces a lurker

Near votes Joudas
Joudas votes Near (3) for avoiding the spotlight
Mac confirms his vote on Near (3), calls for a claim

Singing Librarian calls Near scummy

Dasquian votes Near (4) for forced concern, calls for a claim

EvilGorillaz votes Near (5), agrees with Dasquian

Guardian is undecided on Near because he's suspicious, but also an easy lynch

People on Near wagon:

SingingLibrarian,

Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, EvilGorillaz

Near points out that his wagon reached L-2 twice in 10 pages, leading to likely scum involvement
Guardian leans toward Near being scum.

Dasquian supports his vote.

Joudas is undecided on Near because he's suspicious, but unlinkable if scum.

Coron does not support a Near lynch because it doesn't feel right

Near states that he thinks all three scum may have been on his wagon at both times.

EvilGorillax unvotes Near (4)

Meanwhile, Phox is slowly racking up his own wagon with Sensfan, Yosarian, Near,

Coron

Guardian calls Dasquian and Near scumpartners, and heavily attacks Near

Dasquian asks if Guardian would vote Near

MBF replaces some lurker and DBE replaces Phox

DBE votes Near (5) to preserves herself (at 3 votes)

DBE unvotes Near (4) until she thinks it through futher

SingingLibrarian unvotes to vote Mac

MBF votes DBE (3), along with

Coron

and Yosarian

DBE votes Near (5)

for deadline bandwagon
MBF does not support Near lynch
Guardian votes DBE (4) for pressure, but unvotes (3) soon

People on Near wagon:

Singing Librarian

, Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, DBE

People on DBE wagon:

DarlaBlueEyes 3 - Yosarian2,

Coron

, MBF
Guardian votes Coron (1) for unexplained accusations

Coron claims tracker

MBF unvotes DBE (2) and votes Near (6) via Coron link
Guardian hints he may hammer Near soon, suggests lynching Coron instead.
MBF unvotes Near (5), votes Coron (2)

Dasquian discourages Coron tracker lynch

MBF unvotes Coron (1), votes Near (6) citing deadline

DBE considers Coron scum, FOS him, stick with Near vote

Guardian unvote Coron (0), votes DBE (3)

People on Near wagon:

Singing Librarian

, Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, DBE

, MBF
Coron calls for Near claim

Evil Gorillaz calls for Near to post

Dasuian votes DBE (4) citing deadline

DBE claims powerrole

Guardian unvotes DBE (2), votes Near (6), citing nonpower>claimed power

Coron wants claim still

Guardian does not.
Mac agrees.
MBF calls for Near hammer

Dasquian threatens hammer

Guardian unvotes Near (5), votes Dasquian (#) because Near seems sincere
MBF unvotes Near (4), votes Coron (1) because he actually likes coron lynch
Guardian votes Coron (2) for scummy claim

DBE unvotes Near (3), votes Coron (3)

Near unvotes, votes Coron (4)
Mac unvotes Near (2), votes Coron (5)
Near unvotes Coron (4), votes himself (3)
=Deadline=

Dasquian unvotes DBE (3), votes Near (4)

Final Vote count

People on Final Coron lynchwagon:

MBF, Guardian,

DBE

, Mac

People on Near wagon:

Yosarian2,

Coron, Dasquian

People on DBE wagon:

Singing Librarian,

Joudas, Near

=Coron, tracker, lynched=
=EvilGorillaz, townie, dies=

DBE claims watcher. Dasquian did nothing

Yosarian votes MBF (1) for lynching tracker
Guardian gets voted by

Dasquian (1), SingingLibrarian, (2)

PyroDwarf (3)

DBE votes Guardian (4)

Guardian claims cop with innocent on Joudas

Guardian votes DBE (1)

Dasquian unvotes Guardian (3)

SingingLibrarian unvotes Guardian (2)

PyroDwarf unvotes Guardian (1)

DBE unvotes Guardian (0)

MBF votes Yosarian
Guardian unvotes DBE (0), votes MBF (2), no reason given.
Mac votes MBF (3), folowing Yosarian, mostly near-lynch

Dasquian votes MBF (4), for supporting a no-lynch Day 1

DBE votes MBF (5), for being scummy

Guardian unvotes MBF (4) to prevent speedlynch

Singing Librarian votes MBF (5) for perceived backpeddling

People on MBF wagon:

Yos2, Macavenger, Guardian (hopped off),

Dasquian, DBE, Singing Librarian

Guardian threatens hammer
Pyrodwarf fishes for a doctor claim

ABR replaces Near

ABR does not support a MBF lynch, votes Dasquian (1)
Guardian votes Dasquian (2), then unvotes (1) to vote Mac

DBE unvotes MBF (4) at ABR's request to avoid a speedlynch

MBF votes Pyrodwarf (1)
Mac unvotes MBF (3)

SingingLibrarian unvotes MBF (2), votes Pyrodwarf (2)

Guardian joins ABR in voting Dasquian (2)
MBF unvotes Pyrodwarf (1) to vote Dasquian (3)

Dasquian unvotes MBF (1)

Joudas votes Dasquian (4) for being scum with MBF and DBE/Pyrodwarf

DBE votes Dasquian (5)

People on Dasquian wagon:

ABR, Guardian, MBF, Joudas,

DBE

Yosarian unvotes MBF (0), votes DBE (1)
Mac votes DBE (2)

Singin Librarian votes DBE (3) for scumminess

Guardian unvotes Dasquian (4) to prevent hammer

DBE unvote Dasquian (3)

ABR unvotes Dasquian (2), votes DBE (4)
Pyrodwarf votes Dasquian (3), believing to put him at L-1
MBF unvotes Pyrodwarf (0), votes DBE (5)

People on DBE wagon:

Yos2, Macavenger,

Singing Librarian,

ABR, MBF
Guardian expresses an interest in hammering
ABR encourages a hammer
MBF encourages hammer
Guardian refuses, is unconvinced.
MBF encourages hammer some more.
Mac unvotes DBE (4)
MBF unvotes DBE (3)
Guardian unvotes Dasquian (2), votes DBE (4)

People on DBE wagon:

Yos2,

Singing Librarian,

Guardian, ABR
MBF votes Dasquian (3)

DBE votes herself (5) at ABR's request

ABR unvotes DBE (4)

DVE unvotes herself (3)

SingingLibrarian unvotes DBE (2)

ABR votes DBE (3)
ABR votes Dasquian (4), unvotes DBE (2)
Mac votes Dasquian (5)
Guardian unvotes DBE (1), vote/hammers Dasquian (6)

Final Vote count

People on Final Dasquian lynchwagon:

Joudas, Pyrodwarf, MBF, ABR, Macavenger, Guardian

People on Pyrodwarf wagon:

Dasquian, Singing Librarian

People on DBE:

Yosarian
DBE was not voting.

Dasquian, townie, lynched
SiningLibrarian, one-shot vig, killed

Here are the big wagons. Perhaps we can make something out of this. Guardian's name in blue, depending on if we chose to believe him. My name is in Purple for personal reference, and if I can prove I am town somehow.

People on Near wagon:

Yosarian,

SingingLibrarian

,

Guardian,

Phox

, Mac

People on Near wagon:

SingingLibrarian,

Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, EvilGorillaz

People on Near wagon:

Singing Librarian

, Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, DBE

People on

DBE

wagon:

Yosarian2,

Coron

,

MBF

People on Near wagon:

Singing Librarian

, Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, DBE

,

MBF

People on Final

Coron

lynchwagon:

MBF,

Guardian,

DBE

, Mac

People on Near wagon:

Yosarian2,

Coron, Dasquian

People on

DBE

wagon:

Singing Librarian,

Joudas, Near

People on

MBF

wagon:

Yos2, Macavenger,

Guardian

(hopped off),

Dasquian, DBE, Singing Librarian

People on

Dasquian

wagon:

ABR,

Guardian,

MBF

, Joudas,

DBE

People on

DBE

wagon:

Yos2, Macavenger,

Singing Librarian,

ABR,

MBF

,

Guardian encouraging

People on

DBE

wagon:

Yos2,

Singing Librarian,

Guardian,

ABR

People on Final

Dasquian

lynchwagon:

Joudas, Pyrodwarf,

MBF,

ABR, Macavenger,

Guardian

People on Pyrodwarf wagon:

Dasquian, Singing Librarian

People on DBE:

Yosarian
DBE was not voting.

And, in a complete reversal, I am going to encourage speedvoting no lynch, as to prevent the mafia from making a more informed kill choice.

Vote: No-lynch

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, come on Guardian, don't take your ball and go home. Let's finish this.

[mikeburnfire]

Guardian....

...you break my heart by leaving me to hunt for scum alone

:,(

[mikeburnfire]

I have been thinking about lynching macavenger as well, but that is something we can discuss tomorrow.

Somebody please hammer No-lynch please.

[mikeburnfire]

Heh. If Joudas was a Godfather, it would be an even BETTER reason to have killed you last night.

[mikeburnfire]

I can see scum making that trade-off.

[mikeburnfire]

Actually, it wasn't Yos's post, it was mine. And Near was put at L-2 TWICE on Day 1 before page 12. This leads me to believe that scum were pushing it. Doesn't clear ABR, but is not evidence for him being scum.

So that's five votes for No lynch and two votes for Keep Guardian.

[mikeburnfire]

Yep, it's all WIFOM.

Two whole hours of my life. That's how committed I am as scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Also, why does most of the activity in this game take place around 3 AM?

[mikeburnfire]

Lovely Bertha, you are most kind for agreeing with me that Mickey is town.

Mickey?

[mikeburnfire]

My thoughts on the current scumgroup: Yosarian, Pyrodwarf, and Joudas, but Mac or ABR aren't ruled out.

Guardian is town, there is no doubt in my mind anymore. Is he sane or naive? I couldn't say. With a watcher and tracker, there are two theories. Either he's naive, or the moderator is using our preconceived notions of what balanced is and using our own assumptions against us to balance the game. Occam's razor would suggest the former.

I wish I could say that Guardian's investigation clears me, but that isn't the case, and it doesn't clear Joudas either. My guess is that the scum realized that Guardian was naive when he said he targeted Joudas, and thus was not a threat. Their intention two night ago seems to have been to NOT target DBE, let her waste her investigation, and have her looks even scummier.

I'm going to bed now (just got out of work), so I plan on tackling this game to the best of my ability. There's enough information here for us to take an easy win. While I am predisposed to killing Yosarian, I request that we all have time to speak our mind before the night.

I'm a townie. I'm actually kind of surprised the mafia didn't kill me after all that talk about me being a possible doctor. For what it's worth, I even thew that "We need to protect our cop" line out right before nightfall in the hopes to be a lightning rod for their kill.

[mikeburnfire]

I still think Yos is scum based on yesterday's lynch. He was is town, that would mean that ALL the scum were on Dasquian's wagon, and I don't think that's likely. I'm trying to ignore the fact that he vehemently tried to push my lynch Day 2, but his relentlessness is a factor to consider as well. Oh, and now he's trying to discredit the cop too. Guardian is not scum.

However, I'm not completely sure, and even though I think Pyro and Yosarian are likely scum, I'd like to wait until I can do a full review and be confident about it. Joudas and ABR make me uneasy.

[mikeburnfire]

ABR, you are banned from giving advice for the rest of the game.

Joudas and ABR continue to make me uneasy. Seriously. You're all way too hellbent on getting Yosarian speedlynched.

[mikeburnfire]

Please unvote Joudas.

[mikeburnfire]

I will not vote until I have done my review, and I will not review the game if it looks like somebody will be speedlynched.

[mikeburnfire]

Then I don't vote.

"MBF is almost certainly town to me" to "MBF is scummy as all hell" in less than 20 posts. And all because I don't want to do a thorough analysis only to have the thread close on me. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, considering who this is coming from.

[mikeburnfire]

- imagining the Coron wagon day 1 as all townies is just painful, and he's the only one left to be scum on it.

Actually, because the Coron wagon was so quickly and illogically produced, scum are less likely to be on it, especially if you consider that the other wagons on DBE (proven town) and ABR (you believe to be town). Why would scum want to quickly jump on a speedlynch like that and risk looking suspicious when they're already voting town?

- I read Joudas as town Day 1.

Really? I don't have much of a read on Joudas Day 1 (I might once I reread). What's your reasoning?

- Still feel like Yos2 came out better in their argument Day 2, although this means little now that Yos2 is very likely scum.

I disagree, obviously. I still feel like most of the attack on me were easily refuted.

- Refusal to claim at L-1 was kinda odd.

If I claimed townie, the mafia would have that information, and the town would have nothing new, except more indifference to my death. By not claiming and instead arguing against my lynch, I prevented the mafia from getting that information. I also caught PyroDwarf trying to rolefish, but that was just a bonus.

It seems that Yosarian is one vote away from being lynched. So be it. But I won't be on it. It's too easy. Scum are definitely on this wagon. And they're either trying to speedlynch a townie, or trying to sacrificing him to look better.

[mikeburnfire]

Nope. I'm through acting on emotions.

[mikeburnfire]

I dunno about you, ABR, but I'm playing to win, not to be headstrong.

Since the pressure's off, I'll go through and do my read. Probably tomorrow morning since I get out of work early.

[mikeburnfire]

I have done my read and agree with Joudas that Yos, Pyro, and Mac are our scum.

Pyrodwarf has been stingy with his votes and only vote for people who are now confirmed or essentially confirmed town.
Several times he agreed with Macavenger, but never addressed him directly. He only mentioned Yosarian two times offhandedly as a possible scum, never addressing him directly. He talked to Joudas three times and ABR twice. This leads me to believe he is not scum with Joudas or ABR, and that he, Mac, and Yosarian are the scum.

Macavenger has not addressed Yosarian directly either. Mac addressed Pyro twice--once in regards to a page 2 action, pointless, and again when Pyro made a post about "like the cop for scum". He interrogated him lightly and never followed up. Getting closer to LyLo, he starts throwing him under the bus. All of a sudden he agrees with all the previous points against him. He rehashes the doc-fishing, Guardian-voting, MBF-Omgus-voting. He attempts to pursuade ABR to be more suspicious of Pyrodwarf than Yosarian. I guess he figured out that Pyro was a liability and that keeping the clever Yosarian alive increased the scum's chances of winning. The brief moments of sacrificing Pyro are short, though. When SL dies, Mac suggests that Pyrodwarf's lurking could be evidence of town. If you review his posts, Mac tries to avoid suspecting Pyro, but when he does he also tries to defend him at the same time.
But now that we've all decided that Yosarian and Pyro are scum, Mac just goes with the flow and tries to tie Joudas and me to the scumteam.

Yosarian isn't so easily tackled. He'll try to distance himself from his scummates more, but not by much. He fos'd three people all game. James, who eventually voted for, and Mac and pyro, which he never followed up on. Ignoring the early votes and lurker votes, he's voted for me and DBE all game, so he has a 0/2 vote record (0/4 if you consider he voted me twice and his early Near vote). And only two people get his vote the entire game? That's a problem. Yosarian has been playing very carefully because he's scum. He's content to sitting back and letting the town destroy itself (which was easy given Coron's odd play, DBE's weak claim, Guardian's odd choices, my bad play, ABR's erratic play, etc)

Now, ABR is difficult to pin down, considering his erratic play. He's been very defensive of Pyrodwarf all of the game. And he's been theorizing a DBE-Dasq-Yos scumteam and forcing it down our throats, with particular emphasis on DBE or Dasquian, who, upon being revealed as town, would allow him to rethink his suspicions. Given this evidence, you can see how heavily he is linked as a possible scum. However, his interactions with Yosarian and his unrelenting attacks on him make it incredibly unlikely that they are on the same team. Also, Near was pretty pro-town back before he was replaced, as has been stated before.

Joudas. Well, he didn't suspect Yosarian at all until recently. Same thing on Mac, although he started suspecting him earlier. Argued with ABR a few times. Overall, not much of a read, strange considering his participation. I get the feeling that the scum see him as easily manipulated and that's why he's still alive.

I tried to read through evilgorillaz's posts to find some information, but all his posts are garbage. They give absolutely no information. SingingLibrarian I tried to analyze. One of the last things he said was

"I still don't get it, and I'm still not willing to vote for [Dasquian]. PyroDwarf, absolutely. DBE, if we go back there, maybe. Dasquian? Barring some sort of major new information, no way."

Him, Yosarian and Dasquian were the only ones not on Dasquian's lynchwagon, and two of those three were voting for Pyrodwarf (Yosarian was still voting the watcher). SL got axed because, given how he was going to be proven right on a lot of things, he was bound to seem pro-town.

I've said my peace.

Vote: Yosarian

[mikeburnfire]

I wasn't looking for evidence against you for you to refute it. I was looking for evidence to determine who the scum were. The lack of interaction between you and PyroDwarf, along with the way all three of you ignored each other all game, is damning. I've made up my mind and it'll be pretty difficult to change it.

[mikeburnfire]

You can try. ABR is the only one I really feel is town. The other four suspects have voted for nobody except now-confirmed innocents or likely-innocents (Me, Guardian, Near).

[mikeburnfire]

Besides, Joudas doesn't look like scum with pyro. Pyro seemed to feel threatened by Joudas's allegations when he went after Guardian. He also tried to discredit Guardian's innocent results, by suggesting calling his sanity into question and allowing for possibility of a godfather.

[mikeburnfire]

The time you cite of me defending him on the no lynch day wasn't really a defense, it was a question. Realize that I asked this one time and never pushed the idea at all, and also that I asked it on the no lynch day, at a time when it was still conceivable DBE and Guardian could be scum (which looked kinda likely at the time, given how crazy scummy DBE was), so there wasn't much of an elimination case for PyroDwarf at that point.

You say it wasn't really a defense, it was a question. That's an awfully nice way to say that it was a leading defense that you can't be held accountable for. And you may have asked it on the no lynch day, but he was still under heavy suspicion. You made your 'question' post immediately after suspecting him for a few posts. You couldn't defend him suddenly because that would be suspicious. That's why you took the "Is is possible he's town based on this?" approach.

Here are your posts on Pyro:
13 - "He may be agreeable, but he presents original arguments"
19 - "Coron, why is Pyro scummiest?"
20 - "Coron, Pyro's post makes sense with the rest of his posts. Also, his lynch seems easy. I think he's town"
22 - "Pyro, a third vote on a player page 2 isn't really suspicious." <- weak
32 - "Guardian, why do you suspect Pyro? He wasn't scummy to you a few days ago"
34 - "I don't think Pyro's a good lynch. Maybe I'll pressure him in future days"
44 - "Yos and Pyro look town to me"
92 - "Pyro, I don't like your post. Explain yourself" <- kinda~weak
103 - "Pyro looks scummy to me." <- This post is the only time you really heavily lay into him, but it's also a post where you defend Yosarian a lot.
110 - I'd prefer to lynch Dasq or DBE, then pyro. <- pyro is the least of the three
112 - I'll vote either DBE or Pyro. <- Pyro comes closer to being voted
113 - I'm voting Dasquian, because DBW claimed watcher and Pyro's death gives us less leads. Also he could be newbie.
114 - "I heard a theory that would make Pyro town. What do you guys think?"

[mikeburnfire]

And 0/2, if that is true (I like how you just act like we should all assume you're town) is still better then most people in this game.

Really? 0% success is good by comparison?

If people had freaking listened to me, we never would have done the dumb Coron lynch or the illogical Dasquin lynch.

Yes. Instead we would have done a Near lynch and a DBE lynch, which is just as bad, but was more logical.

[mikeburnfire]

I was referring more to votes than to overall suspicions. Your votes haven't touched scum all game.

I was wrong about DBE, that is true. You are misrepresenting me about Near, though; I was voting Near for a while, but by the end of the day I was opposing a Near bandwagon as well.

Oh, right. You ended up voting DBE (another now-confirmed innocent) at the end of day 1. And the next day you setup a big theory about how I'm scum and, even though Guardian is the one who made Coron's lynch possible, he's town and I'm scum. You were unrelentless about it until people stopped blindly following you, at which point you went back onto DBE. So you're biggest suspects have been DBE, me, and recently Guardian. That's 0/3, and this latest attack on Guardian is pure malarkey.

Post 91: Seriously considering that Guardian is a Scum Watcher? And that it's more likely than him being a cop who targeted himself?

Post 96: "Why, exactally, would a scum be less likely to do that[flip out] then a townie?" You already know the answer to this question, Yos. Because townies get frustrated at the game easier than scum because scum retain a sense of control, and are unlikely to behave in such a manner if they are untouched and poised to win.

Post 97: "Investigating those you are uncertain about is a good idea on day 1, but in lynch or lose?" Why would you investigate somebody you were certain about? This doesn't even make sense.

[mikeburnfire]

So what if you've been right about dead townies? You've never found scum.

[mikeburnfire]

You've never even come close. You may have defended people like Near and Dasq, but you also attacked people like DBE, Guardian and myself. Of the people who are possible scum (Joudas, Mac, Pyro, ABR), what have you said about them? What evidence have you given us to help find scum?

Nothing about Joudas.

That Pyro is "suspicious looking" and could be scum with anyone. And that Pyro had said a scummy sentence.

That Mac's 'trying to direct the cop' was bad, but it was also a newbie tell.

By contrast, you have repeatedly found things that make me and ABR scummy. This is why you are scum, not because you can defend town, but because you can't find scum, won't argue with scum, and won't make a case against scum.

[mikeburnfire]

I agree. The only reason I'm not thinking about subbing Joudas for Mac is

Besides, Joudas doesn't look like scum with pyro. Pyro seemed to feel threatened by Joudas's allegations when he went after Guardian. He also tried to discredit Guardian's innocent results, by suggesting calling his sanity into question and allowing for possibility of a godfather.

[mikeburnfire]

Given the fact that the opening theme suggests mafia....

...and that M.O. for all the kills have been gunshots...

...except SL who was bludgeoned with a sign...

...I really didn't expect Yosarian to be a werewolf.

Oh well, doesn't change my opinion of anything.

vote: Pyro

[mikeburnfire]

Mod: You would tell us if Guardian was a Naive Cop, right?

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, so....

why?

[mikeburnfire]

unvote

[mikeburnfire]

1) You'll lynch me for "attempted speedlynching" (and/or I'll get speedlynched) as Albert is trying to do, it seems, and Albert will feel like a moron.

Yeah, I don't think so. Albert has been pretty unapologetic for his methods.

[mikeburnfire]

Waiting for Albert and Mac...

[mikeburnfire]

Agreed. Also, if we're going to speculate on flavor, keep in mind that bullets have been killing people, not bitemarks. Yosarian may have been a godfather-type werewolf in a triad of scum with the other two as his guilty mafia goons.

[mikeburnfire]

It's a tough decision, as both of them have played better than a lot of the town, and both have been ignored by Yosarian. But if the second scum is Pyro, then the last scum is Mac, and I'm fairly sure about that. I just cannot see Pyrodwarf being scum with Joudas. Joudas was going after Pyro pretty intently, and Pyro seemed threatened by Joudas. I've already said this in posts 1412 and 1422.

I took a moment to think about the possibility of a Yos-Joudas-Mac scumgroup, and that seems plausible too. Mac and Joudas have been defending each other for most of the game, until they had to be suspicious by the "process of elimination". But Pyro is definitely scum. He and Yosarian took the same path of accusing Guardian of being scum when they were backed into a corner. Also, he accidentally revealed that he knew Yos was scum in post 1410.

[mikeburnfire]

Now, if you think that Pyro is scum and are unsure of the third scum, why did you call ME the idiot, then vote Joudas?

[mikeburnfire]

Because you were trying to kill Yosarian at the time. Pyro accuses you of trying to kill him to maintain your "7for7". That would mean that he knows that Yos is scum. Even though that post didn't make sense, I see more evidence for a pro-scum Pyro than a pro-town one.

What evidence do you have that Mac and Joudas are on the same team?

[mikeburnfire]

Yes, Macavenger does SEEM more town, but that doesn't make him town. And need I remind you that both you and Joudas tried to speedlynch yesterday?

[mikeburnfire]

Uh, no you can't be convinced on Pyro tomorrow, ABR. I'll be dead, and you'll never listen to somebody you think is scum. So we need to decide right now who the scumteam is. Honestly, I thought we had decided this yesterday, but you continue to be insistent on Pyro's innocence, so let's review.

On Yosarian:

Pyro scarcely ever mentioned Yosarian, talked to him directly never.

Joudas didn't see scum in Yos once, agreed with him twice, never talked to him directly.

Mac defended Yosarian, and tried to shift ABR's vote from him to Pyro.

On Joudas:
Pyro argued with Joudas a bit, talked to him directly thrice
Mac defends Joudas. A lot. Check post 803 (his 91st)
Yos never talked about Joudas ever.

On Mac:
Pyro agreed with Mac at least five times, talked to him directly once.
Joudas didn't see scum in Mac five times, never talked to him directly.
Yos lightly suspected Mac for trying to direct the cop, not much after that.
Minor: Mac intended to work on his reply during the night, regardless of who dies. Because he knew he wouldn't be dead in the morning.

On Pyro:
Joudas made his case against Pyro early, during Yos's attack on me, and talked directly to him often.
Mac defends Pyro four or five times, throws suspicion on him once.
Yos only talked about Pyro in hit-and-run suspicion

Overall, I can admit that perhaps I was too concerned with finding the third scum to question whether or not Pyro is actually the second. I'm still not convinced he's not scum though. Nor that Joudas is scum, but that's changing quickly. More later.

[mikeburnfire]

People on

Near

wagon:

Yosarian

,

SingingLibrarian

,

Guardian,

Phox

, Mac

People on

Near

wagon:

SingingLibrarian,

Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, EvilGorillaz

People on

Near

wagon:

Singing Librarian

, Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, DBE

People on

DBE

wagon:

Yosarian2,

Coron

,

MBF

People on

Near

wagon:

Singing Librarian

, Macavenger, Joudas,

Dasquian, DBE

,

MBF

People on Final

Coron

lynchwagon:

MBF,

Guardian,

DBE

, Mac

People on

Near

wagon:

Yosarian2,

Coron, Dasquian

People on

DBE

wagon:

Singing Librarian,

Joudas,

Near

People on

MBF

wagon:

Yos2,

Macavenger,

Guardian

(hopped off),

Dasquian, DBE, Singing Librarian

People on

Dasquian

wagon:

ABR, Guardian,

MBF

, Joudas,

DBE

People on

DBE

wagon:

Yos2

, Macavenger,

Singing Librarian, ABR, MBF, Guardian encouraging

People on

DBE

wagon:

Yos2

,

Singing Librarian,

Guardian, ABR

People on Final

Dasquian

lynchwagon:

Joudas, Pyrodwarf,

MBF, ABR

Macavenger,

Guardian

People on Pyrodwarf wagon:

Dasquian, Singing Librarian

People on DBE:

Yosarian

DBE

was not voting.

[mikeburnfire]

All this evidence points to Macavenger being scum with Joudas.

It also points equally to Mac being scum with Pyro.

[mikeburnfire]

Neither are Yosarian, Pyro, and Mac.

[mikeburnfire]

That's not making me feel better bout the likelyhood of him being pro-town. Do you have anything else that could convince me that Joudas is more likely scum than Pyro?

[mikeburnfire]

ABR is making a persuasive case. I'll have more time this weekend.

[mikeburnfire]

Just because he's been wrong a lot doesn't mean he's always wrong. He was, afterall, the first person to declare me to be innocent.

Firstly, the interactions between Pyro and Joudas, as well as the interactions between Yos and Mac, lead me to believe that Mac is scum. It's a real shame we need to kill him. He's been more pro-town than most of the townspeople. And he seems really sincere about everything. It's perhaps the best act I've seen in awhile, and even now I really feel in my gut that he's town, even though I have deduced that he is not.

Pyrodwarf has been stingy with his votes and only vote for people who are now confirmed or essentially confirmed town.
Several times he agreed with Macavenger, but never addressed him directly. He only mentioned Yosarian two times offhandedly as a possible scum, never addressing him directly. He talked to Joudas three times and ABR twice. This leads me to believe he is not scum with Joudas or ABR, and that he, Mac, and Yosarian are the scum.

Macavenger has not addressed Yosarian directly either. Mac addressed Pyro twice--once in regards to a page 2 action, pointless, and again when Pyro made a post about "like the cop for scum". He interrogated him lightly and never followed up. Getting closer to LyLo, he starts throwing him under the bus. All of a sudden he agrees with all the previous points against him. He rehashes the doc-fishing, Guardian-voting, MBF-Omgus-voting. He attempts to pursuade ABR to be more suspicious of Pyrodwarf than Yosarian. I guess he figured out that Pyro was a liability and that keeping the clever Yosarian alive increased the scum's chances of winning. The brief moments of sacrificing Pyro are short, though. When SL dies, Mac suggests that Pyrodwarf's lurking could be evidence of town. If you review his posts, Mac tries to avoid suspecting Pyro, but when he does he also tries to defend him at the same time

Of course, this was back when I considered Pyro to be entirely town, now let me pretend that I know Joudas is scum...

Joudas defends Mac five times. The fourth time is pretty bad, when he defends Mac from Near's sudden attempt to place my vote on him. Then later, for seemingly no reason, turns on him. Say's he's willing to vote Mac or Pyro. Later states he's willing to hammer Pyro or Mac. Again, states he's partial to Mac, Pyro, or SL. Again, Pyro, Mac, or Dasq. Mac and Pyro are always involved. Is this because he's trying to link them together, or because he's good at scumhunting?

Macavenger agrees on things with Joudas twice, then this little gem:

I think Joudas just jumped in and explained my problem with Guardian's posts better than I've been doing.

Oh, and then

Also, Joudas doesn't agree with Guardian. He comes to a similar conclusion as Guardian based on very different reasoning. Saying he agrees with Guardian could be suspicious twisting of what he's saying, in this context.

Yeah, that's scummy. Then he agrees with Joudas, strongly defends Joudas against Guardian

What was Joudas doing that caused you to not have a read on him, Guardian? My read was very strongly pro-town, so the result makes sense, but he really didn't seem hard to read to me.

When Guardian doesn't respond, he asks again. Defends Joudas's lurking and innocence

Yeah GF blah blah, my reading of theory suggests that making godfather accusations against someone cop-cleared should only be done for very good reasons. Joudas also has like, pretty much the best reason ever for being kinda inactive right now.

Says he has a town read on Joudas again. Near the end of the game, finally concedes that, due to process of elimination, Joudas is likely scum.

Jeez, I was so sure that Pyro was scum, but there is a lot of evidence that points to Joudas... I'm torn.

[mikeburnfire]

Post edit:

Of course, this was back when I considered Pyro to be entirely

town

scum.

Now that sentence makes sense.

[mikeburnfire]

How about instead of doing that, you please

prod PyroDwarf

? We could really use his input.

/*
* Consider it done
* - Claus
*/

[mikeburnfire]

Pyro, ABR speaks the truth, even though he can be an ass about it. The scum are among you, Joudas, and Mac. There's no doubt in out minds. Convince me you're not scum with Mac, which is where I lean.

[mikeburnfire]

vote: Joudas

[mikeburnfire]

Good job getting Joudas lynched ABR. If you had been right about anything else, we would have won.

Bah. We made lots of bad decisions this game (killing Coron, killing Dasquian, not killing Yosarian early). We didn't really deserve to win. Though it would have been nice.

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, and sorry to coron about getting him lynched. I still say his claim was scummy, but in retrospect he clearly should not have been lynched for it.

[mikeburnfire]

I want to know that too. If he was sane, then the game could have been very unbalanced.

The whole town lynched Coron....lmao. I can't believe there wasn't a single scum in there.

I can. The entire wagon was illogical.

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, well.... since Joudas was scum afterall.... I'm guessing Guardian was naive. Which is why the scum kept him alive.

[mikeburnfire]

Also, what's up with this "werewolf" shiat? Since when do werewolves kill with bullets (or beat people to death with signs, for that matter)?

[mikeburnfire]

QUADRUPLE POST!

Well-played, scum. I had PyroDwarf nailed but Joudas and Yos totally fooled me

Really? I found it hard as hell to get a good read on Pyro because he was so absent. Yos was so scummy it hurt. He hardly did any scumhunting and his logic for getting me lynched was terrible. I'm somewhat irritated that I'm the only one that saw it. The only reason I knew Pyro was scum was because of his obvious connection to Yos.

[mikeburnfire]

- Yos was also good scum, and stayed under the radar while the town was happily lynching townies. This seems to be on par with his good scum performance.

I was actually a bit disappointed in Yos. Perhaps it's because we've been scum together couple of times, but he was pretty obviously scum to me. The lack of forceful scumhunting, his forceful critiquing of me, and his desire to avoid looking scummy by not switching votes were all pretty big tells. I was damn near certain he and Pyro were scum until Day 5, when ABR convinced me otherwise.

It's a good thing K7 killed me, because every moment I was alive, Mac looked more and more townish to me.

[mikeburnfire]

Eh? No, my logic against you was fine. You were really scummy looking day 1, pushing that illogical attack against Coron, especally the way you switched to him right before the end of the day, and that whole "I was trying to get a no lynch thing" was just absurdly scummy. 100% sure I would have acted the exact same way towards you as town, and I also would have argued the same way against the Coron wagon day if I was town. Probably the biggest mistake I made this game was backing off you and not getting you lynched there when I had the chance, but eh, was worried it'd make me look bad if I pushed it all the way to a lynch.

I think, and maybe I'm wrong, that you would have given me more a bit more leeway and allow for the possibility that I was town, had you been town as well.

[mikeburnfire]

The fact that DBE wasn't immediately scared off by all this insanity leads me to believe she may well become a regular around here.

[mikeburnfire]

New wiki page
7for7

[mikeburnfire]

woot im actually in a wiki! ABR is a jerk, if i ever get stuck in a game with him, ill probly request a replace.

I agree that ABR's behavior is, to put it kindly, not the nicest. But sometimes you need to work with people you don't like in order to get things done. It's the way life works. I would certainly prefer ABR's crazy playstyle over somebody who just lurks or posts ONE sentence per week.