Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[Thestatusquo]

Hi.

[Thestatusquo]

K, so I'm on page 6, and what the hell is WRONG with you people...

SPNinja and TDC in particular.

Please answer me this, folks, what do you think is the purpose of bandwagoning? What is the end goal?

If you think the point of bandwagoning someone to l-2 and l-1 is to just sit there and not extract a claim out of them, then you are fucking crazy.

Mafia 101...When someone is bandwagoned, and a large portion of town has shown a willingness to lynch them, they claim, if they don't, or you do not like their claim, then you lynch them. That is how mafia works. Without the threat of a lynch, there's literally no incentive for a player to do ANYTHING once they have reached 5-6 votes, and thus it loses all purpose.

This is especially telling from TSPN from me, because his stated position seems to be that early pressure and bandwagons are what is good day one, which makes me very hesitant to believe that there is not an alterior reason that he suddenly gets all squeemish when the bandwagon is on Zeek as opposed to Cake. This seems like a rather strong connection between the players to me, and if either of them comes up scum, I will be wanting to pressure the shit out of the other one.

On to the Zeek case:

I think it's a good case thusfar, and certainly one that I would have been willing to run him up to l-1 or 2 on day one to get a claim with. I might even have been willing to lynch on it. Keep in mind that I am only on page six right now, and something might happen to change my mind, but at this point I see myself joining that bandwagon, if it still exists at the end of my read.

The key point (and this is particularly damning against TSPN as well) is that he doesn't ever actually scumhunt. The "attack" on cake isnt scummy in that he attacks cake early (I do similar things all the time) but rather that he never attempts to derive information from it. He is not attempting to push cake so that he will find out cakes, or anyone elses alignment, but rather just for the hell of it. He then completely stops attempting to find scum and attacks everyone who even remotely finds him suspicious. These are not pro town actions AT ALL.

[Thestatusquo]

Up to page 13 and the Zeek bandwagon has completely disintegrated for no logical reason that I can see...

If anything, he's getting more scummy to me. His posts look not so much like he's looking for scum, but that he's testing the waters of each person he attacks in turn, to see if he can get other players to bite. When they do not, he quickly moves on to someone else. This is called opportunism at it's worst. If Zeek isn't scum, he may STILL be our best lynch today, because he is a completely useless townie. He has done nothing today but things which would benefit the scum.

Faerielord is the most townie by far. Take this declaration with a grain of salt, though, as I may be saying this just because I happen to agree with a lot of what he is saying, and this wouldn't be the first time that I have been blinded by scum thinking along the same wavelength as me. That being said, the way he backed off the Zeek case was particularly pro townish to me, as he was one of the first to do so, and did so with no real pressure admitting that he was wrong. I just don't see very much motivation for a scum player to do that, and a lot of reason for town to.

On to the role fishing stuff...This is patently ridiculous...Do you even know what role fishing is? Role fishing is attempting to trick a player into making some sort of statement which reveals their role. Asking for a claim is not role fishing, it is merely asking for a claim (by the by he was completely correct in asking for a claim when he did.) The difference is the accountability. Role fishing is scummy because they are trying to get a player to reveal their role without it coming back to them. Asking for a role claim is directly accountable, and should be almost automatic at alost lynch pressure.

A far more scummy role fish, and for exactly the reasons people have been brushing it off, was icemans "power role" comments. Players defending it saying "Well, as long as no one does something stupid..." are exactly why this is a scummy role fish, because if someone somehow slipped up and claimed doctor, for instance, you'd all be "awwww shucks"ing iceman and not lynching him for it because it was someone else who fucked up. FL is absolutely right when he says "Don't speculate on power roles. Period" because by looking at the reactions of players to that statement, you can often determine who is and is not a power role. And by doing it as town, you make it easier for scum to get away with it, which is seriously bad news.

Now, I do not think iceman is scum, because if you combine that with some of the other posts he has made, specifically the one where he asks what a claim is, I have a solid noobie town read on him, but this is a very much "future reference" type argument for all of you.

[Thestatusquo]

@ The replacement for MafiaSSK

: I am interested in some fresh perspective analysis on the game and the players. (And preferably some comment on your predecessor's posts and opinions).

Well, I believe I have already done the first part, with significant analysis of Zeek (my prefered lynch target) TSPN (Player links and hypocracy) FL (townie vibes) and iceman (Rolefishing and Newbie town) as well as the concept of role fishing and role claiming in terms of this games theory...

As for SSK, I think we can all just assume he was an idiot and move on...Thats not really alignment based, I mean, look at some of the things he did:

1) Accused TSPN of quicklynching a player IN ANOTHER GAME in order to make it look like he had an excuse to defend Zeek in this game.

2) Told us that he was replacing out of this game because there was another game he wanted to be in.

In addition to those gems of stupidity, he has a total of 10 posts, hardly enough of a sample to read, especially when he comes off as more stupid than scummy. I mean, come on, what the HELL could be the smart scum OR town motivation for that argument against TSPN? This will be my third post, so I promise you that you will have much more of a basis to read me, and I suggest you forget my predecessor all together.

[Thestatusquo]

And I get to the end of my read and my predecesor was voting zeek already, well kudos to him. Just to make it official:

VOTE: ZEEKSCUM

Carry on, chaps.

[Thestatusquo]

It WASN'T a subtle role fish...It was a horrible blunder of a role fish. The point is that it WAS a rolefish. Along with the rest of the posts hes made this game, most notably the "what is a claim" I really do not think that he was trying to subtly draw out information.

This is why I labeled it as an FYI. The main point was the FL was not role fishing in any way. Not even close to it.

Now, on to more serious matters...

If Cake was not in danger of being lynched, then what was the point of bandwagoning him? I ask this in all seriousness. What were you expecting to happen from his bandwagon?

Major FOS: joohoono

Every time you post it's some worthless comment like "Lets see what comes of this" or "I wonder what will happen now" or "I'm a worthless person who is never going to actually scumhunt."

I just made three HUGE posts about the course of the game, and the best you can do is unvote and say "lets see what comes of this?" IT ALREADY CAME. Now it's your job to actually stop being a bump on the log and actually play some mafia. Do this shit again and my vote is on you.

I want a response to my posts, and I want it now.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would you expect a reaction from him?

[Thestatusquo]

Why? I'm looking for the reason they would react to your vote at all, not some restatement of what I originally questioned.

[Thestatusquo]

Let me rephrase. If I go:

VOTE: THESWEATPANTSNINJA,

Why is that more likely to get a reaction, in your mind, than if I were to go:

BOOGABOOGABOOGA: SWEATPANTSNINJA?

Hmmm?

[Thestatusquo]

and I suggest you forget my predecessor all together.

Thank you for confirming to me that you are scum.

This is EXACTLY what Skruffs and Shaka said in 533. Guess what they were? Not pro-town...

Would you like me to find 20 relevant examples where pro town players did the exact same thing? I mean, if you're really going to cite anecdotal evidence at me, the least you could do is expand your case study to more than 2 people.

In addition, it's easy to attempt to make someone look bad when you cut out the logic of a claim and just attack the claim as if the person didn't substantiate it at all. This is called "attacking something out of context" perhaps you would do well to go back to the logic I gave, and try to beat it. If you don't, then I will simply assume you can't, and if you do, I will be pleasantly surprised and we will have a lovely little chat.

By the way, attempting to make someone look bad by not responding to their logic but instead just their claim is once again another scum tell. You seem to accumulate them, don't you? This also makes me six for six or seven for seven on attacking people who have said they find you suspicious.

Also, since you have claimed 4-5 people are "confirmed scum to you" and seeing as the main factor in them being so to you was that they had voted you, I'm really not worried that I "confirmed myself as scum" to you. You see, when you cry wolf so many times, no one really is willing to actually listen to you anymore.

This is a lesson you should take out of this game. Mafia isnt about what you think, it's about convincing others that you are right, on both sides of the ball... When you attack everyone in site, using terms of certainty when you cant possibly be certain, it doesn't make people confident in your conclusions. When you make arguments like "they are attacking me and I am a confirmed townie to myself so they are more likely to be scum" you are making the mistake that everyone shares your perspective. We do not. To us, you are not a confirmed townie, you are an unknown who has dropped at least 5-6 scumtells. You can't expect the argument "they voted me and to me I'm a confirmed townie" to hold any sway with other people at all..

Hope you take that to heart.

[Thestatusquo]

If sudo would so kindly fix the quote tags, I would be obliged.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, the "makes me..." in that post should be "makes you..." sorry for the typo.

[Thestatusquo]

So if you're saying that you were not expecting him to be lynched nor was he in danger of being lynched, what teeth does your vote have, and why did you expect him to react to it?

[Thestatusquo]

Well, it's leading to something in my mind... There's an internal contradiction in your actions. You say that bandwagoning is good in defense of Zeeks random assaults on cake, but then you strip the bandwagon of all its worth by saying, that in your mind at least, it had no teeth.

Then, when it comes to a bandwagon which does have teeth, and CAN net us information, you fight it like the plague. Not only the notion that a bandwagon would be good (remember there was far more of a case on zeek then there was on cake) but also the notion that getting a claim would be good. Seeing as these are the only two purposes of a bandwagon, I find it more than a little odd that you were supporting D1 bandwagons and then attacking them... The only conclusion that I can draw is that you're protecting an inexperienced scumbuddy who you know will not be very good at fake claiming.

In addition, even if you believe to have a meta on Zeek which says he was town, was the case on him not solid to anyone who DIDN'T have said meta? Furthermore, since when is one game as town enough meta to tell you he always does these things as town, or that he doesn't do them as scum? The simple and correct answer is that it doesn't. The fact that you then attacked other players for making a case, which, frankly, was one of the most solid day one cases I have seen in a long time, just because you had seen him do these things in one other game seems ridiculous to me. It seems like a not pro town thing to do, and it's a very fundamental reason why I think there is a pretty strong tie between you and zeek.

Really the only other reason I can see you making the actions you did was if Zeek were town and you knew this fact. Figuring that he would get lynched you got in some heavy duty buddying up and defending to make you look good when he hung, I think that it is very unlikely that a townie would marry themselves to an unknown the way you did, even if they did have a limited meta on him. Remember, you not only defended him, but attacked others for attacking him.

Regardless, it's time to get Zeek up to L-2 and get him to claim. If he doesn't, we lynch him. It's as simple as that. This is the only way you get information in a game of mafia, we might as well get on with it.

[Thestatusquo]

1) The argument I am making is that just because you have had one game experience with him as town where he did those things does not mean that it is his meta to do those things as town. It is not a large enough sample. Similarly, it does not mean that he does not do said things as scum.

2) An even more important argument is that outside of your "Knowledge of him as a player" the bandwagon looks damn good. So how in good faith could you attack players for not knowing his meta?

3) This is mafia 101. When you get someone to lynching range (lynching range is typically l-2 or 1, the safer and more pro town option being two, that way you can put on a little more pressure if they refuse to claim) you get them to claim. This is the point of a bandwagon, especially on day one. Even if Zeek is town, in your eyes, it is still better that he claim, because a) It means he can avoid lynch if he is pro town, and b) it means that if he gets lynched we have a lot more information to analyze the next day. Srsly, thats the whole POINT of a day one bandwagon. I am saying that when you do not do this at the end of a bandwagon, then what the hell incentive is there to react to it? You are essentially destroying the towns only means of information when you do not push for a claim within lynch range.

4) Lastly, I've already touched on this...The reasons were poor given your own personal meta on him. They were not poor in mafia terms. In fact, zeek has dropped at least 5 scumtells (strong ones, probably a lot more weaker ones.) this game. For you to get up there and attack players that are willing to vote him after that is not only ridiculously stupid, but also anti town.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, lets go through this one by one to analyze the bullshit.

#1 I thought you were Nano (as I quickly realized I was wrong and made another post stating so), so calm down - but I read your posts and made a quick response to it under that assumption.

All my points still apply regardless of who you think I was. Please answer them.

#2 Your numerous defenses of Faerie, another highly suspicious player, is noted.

As is your inability, once again, to answer the logic of my post, and attack the claim. I gave 2 or 3 seperate reasons why I thought FL was town. Please do not act as if I just said "FL IS TOWN LOLOLOLOLOL"

#3 You said on Page 6 you would be willing to vote for/lynch me. lol. That was the whole problem with the bandwagon. What was the point of it? There was no case on me. Yet it swelled to 5 votes (nearly half of the game). Obviously it is not going to do that for no reason unless there are mafia pushing it, so yeah, that's where I am going to start when I'm looking for mafia - attacking the people who were on that wagon.

The point of it, with all due respect, was to lynch you. In fact, lets look at my reasons from page 6:

The key point (and this is particularly damning against TSPN as well) is that he doesn't ever actually scumhunt. The "attack" on cake isnt scummy in that he attacks cake early (I do similar things all the time) but rather that he never attempts to derive information from it. He is not attempting to push cake so that he will find out cakes, or anyone elses alignment, but rather just for the hell of it. He then completely stops attempting to find scum and attacks everyone who even remotely finds him suspicious. These are not pro town actions AT ALL.

LOOKIE HERE! IT'S A WHOLE PARAGRAPH OF REASONS! You know, those things you forget about when you're just quoting the claim and not the actual argument the person makes? Here, I accuse you of having motivations that are not pro town. Motivational tells are the strongest ones in mafia, because they don't look at the actions of the player, they look at why they took them. Doing that, you can look at what win condition a player is playing towards. Here I discuss how your actions are not pro town because you do not seem to be attempting to find scum. Your actions seem to be to point people away from you, and not to gain any information about the other players, as a pro town player would be want to do. In the end, the only thing I can derive from this is that you're stupid, or mafia, or both. This is a pretty damning case, and one you've yet to respond to.

Who was on it?

Johoohno, but his was a random vote from the random stage and he later took it off, so it's not very likely that he is scum, as he could have easily just left it on there and let the votes keep piling up.

Cake, an OMGUS vote against me, but that was also during the [somewhat] random stage (as was my vote on him) so not too suspicious there.

Iceman was the first person to jump on my "let's lynch cake" statement and cast his vote accordingly. This is a null tell because it could be opportunistic scum, or it could be an over eager townie looking for possibly the first scumtell of the game (although, as I've said, I don't really see the comment as scummy considering the stage of the game and the context of it - following my vote in which my reason was "let's stir the pot"). Plus there is the whole "scumhunting" thing between him and TSPN (3 different occassions). Overall, that's why I don't want to lynch ice yet, because I think we can get more information out of him by keeping him around longer.

Next TDC Faerie and Nano all come in from not participating to full on attack of me (which is all the more suspicious to me because there really is no reason for these guys to vote for me - unlike the first three people who are - so this reeks of opportunism, which is what scum do)

This is all wrong! Do you seriously expect us to base all our scumhunting this game off of who voted you? Seriously? Do you really think that the entire goal of the mafia is to quick lynch you? If so, then you are literally the stupidest player I have ever had the missfortune of playing with on the site. And that INCLUDES drippinggoofball. Ok, here, listen up, I'm going to say this only once, and you're going to listen...

In a game of mafia, people are not suspicious because they suspect you. Why is this? Well, a miriad of reasons, really, but the main one is that YOUR ROLE IS UNKNOWN. The mafias objective is to win, not lynch you. The towns job is to find scum. This involves being suspicious of players like yourself, who have committed MAJOR scum tells. It is not coincidence that 6-7 people over the course of the game have found your actions scummy at points. It is your scummy actions fault, not the fault of the other players. In short, be less scummy.

Every single poster you list on your "black list" had legitimate reasons for voting you, especially in the early game. Every, single, fucking, one. The fact that you're now trying to act like anyone who LOOKS at you funny is scum is not only unconvincing as HELL, but as flawed an argument as possible.

I'll ask you this, face up: What the fuck would the motivation of all those people be, if they really were scum? What the HELL good could come of scum all piling onto you in the early game and getting you lynched? It's not like you're a good town player who is a threat. it's not like theres reason for them to act together agressively like that in the early game, there's no threat...You're saying that the scum just decided that it was time to lynch YOU SPECIFICALLY and then went at it.

So let's look at them individually.

TDC had not posted anything before his attack on me. He came in with a fairly long post in which he examined several aspects of the game (Johoohno, Cake, etc) and also voted for me. So while, again, this *could* be an opportunistic vote, it could also be a legit attempt at trying to be a good townie (but, again, misguided).

Ok, so let me get this straight...because he attacked other people, he is less likely to be scum, but if he had only attacked you, he would have been scummy? Oh my god you're making my brain hurt SO bad. Do you not see how completely and totally illogical that is?

TDC later pushes the "case" for a few posts after I respond to him, but he also looks elsewhere in the game. For now I'm more inclined to lean towards "town", or at least "null-tell".

Wow...Oh my god, that really is what you're saying...Youre really saying that a scummy action is attacking you, and not attacking you is a townie action...You really need to be in a psych ward somewhere...

Faerie had made a comment earlier in the game saying "the Cake wagon is uninteresting to me" or something along those lines. So he was around when Cake and ice were (somewhat expectedly) attacking me, and at that time he decided he'd like to just ignore what was going on.

The claim and warrant does not follow. Like, at all...What argument are you even making here?

Then when TDC came in with a vote all of a sudden Faerie changes his tune and decides he would like to try to build a case against me (out of nothing, which I continually point out). He won't vote for me though, he just uses FoS. After Nano votes Faerie gets more aggressive, but still won't cast a vote. Then Johoohno unvotes and apparently Faerie is worried that the bandwagon is dying, so he does cast a vote. Why? I think he is getting worried that the bandwagon is slipping away, so he wants to revive it.

1) Faerie never said that your wagon wasn't interesting, he said it was CAKES wagon that was uninteresting. He's not "changing his tune" at all. There is literally NO position switch. The case isn't out of nothing. I think it has at least 5 or 6 good points. I, and many others in the game, agree with them.
2) Faerie has already explained AT LEAST THREE TIMES TO YOU THIS GAME that he does not vote unless he absolutely needs to. Your continually trotting it out as if it's damning against him or something only makes you look foolish.
3) Faerie wanted you to claim, and without a claim, wanted you lynched. Thats what happens in a game of mafia when a player is very suspicious of another player. There is nothing in faeries actions that is not consistant with a pro town player who thought you were scum. Try to look at it this way...Pretend that you're another player, and that faerie attacks THAT player, with all the things that player has done which are similar to what you've done. Is that an anti town action? Because, remember, we don't know your alignment.

And then he calls for a claim for no reason. And seriously, what is the benefit of getting someone to claim on Day 1 (especially when there is no case against them?), what does he expect? Does he want me to claim doctor or cop? That only helps the mafia. What if I claim vanilla? Then what good is that because there is no way to prove it other than to have the cop investigate me (which is, again, no good for the town).

This rant just shows that you don't know how mafia works. A claim is literally THE ONLY REASON FOR DAY ONE IN A GAME OF MAFIA. A claim, and the lynch that is. We get information from you, and then we better decide to lynch you. If you are pro town, then it is to your advantage that you claim, because it might save your lynch.

This is important. I want you to stop thinking there is no case against you. There IS, so much that at least 7 players have been suspicious of you thusfar this game. Even if EVERY SINGLE SCUM is among that group, which I HIGHLY doubt (If I were scum and I knew you were town I'd be much more likely to defend you then attack you, or do a little bit of both, as SPN has done.) Thats still 4 protown players who think there's a decent case against you. (note: Calculations done with the assumption of 3 scum, which is reasonable in a mini.)

Now that's out of the way, I can address the rest of the argument: The reason you should claim is that it might help you avoid a lynch. This is a thing a pro town player wants to do at all costs, because the town needs to lynch scum. Even if you ARE a doctor, or a cop, it is much much much much better for you to be killed by them at night then for the town to waste a lynch on killing you. If you don't claim when we get you back up to l-2 (as is the fucking norm) then we will lynch you. You don't want that, do you?

He then makes an odd comment about if I claimed vig and says he would "go 1 for 1 if I was" (talking in the perspective of a scum - why would a townie do that??) The whole claim thing was very odd/suspicious. Like what was the point? If I had hinted that I had an investigation result, then yeah, force me to claim. If I hinted that I was going to do something at night, yeah, ask me what it was. But all I did was say (during the random voting stage) "are we going to lynch Cake?" Oh wow, that's really a great reason to try to get a claim out of someone.

1) He already explained this to you twice. It was a hypothetical situation. He was saying that scum would not have the motivation to do what you are claiming that they are doing, unless, of course, you are a vigilante. This is because going 1 for 1 with a vig might be advantageous to scum, because a vig can often go 2-1 or 3-1 with scum. So it's a bargain, but any other role, it's not worth it. Taking the perspective of the scum is not odd, or suspicious, it's how you play the game. Try to figure out what the scum would do/think, and then match those behaviors/paterns to whats going on in the game. Not this "OMG YOU VOTED ME" Bullshit system YOU seem to have in place.

And then you (TSQ) say Faerie backing down is pro-town. I'd say it's null. Because scum know the people they are attacking are not scum, so it's not necessarily in their best interest to put so much attention on themselves by attacking a player they know will turn up to prove them wrong.

And now we add a wifom argument to your impressive list of scumtells.

For another 533 reference see Shaka... he spent all of his time attacking me to get me lynched. He succeeded, but then when I came up town (as he obviously knew I would), then the town turned and lynched him. Horrible play from him because he didn't consider the consequences of getting me lynched, he was too focused on getting that one mislynch. But I imagine Faerie is more intelligent than Shaka, so I can see him wanting to back down if no one else is standing beside him. Yeah he can fight for me to get lynched all day, but if he's scum, he knows that at the end of the day I'll come up town, and then he'll look awfully bad for attacking me so hard. So backing down I would say is, at best, a null-tell because while it could be a townie move, it just as easily could be a scum move. The fact that he gets so frustrated and revotes for me (to try to get the wagon rolling based on emotion now - since he still doesn't have a case on me) is again another suspicious action to add to the list. Maybe he's frustrated that I'm going after his buddy?

First of all, this is a) Wifom, b) Poisoning the well ANOTHER SCUM TELL, c) anecdotal, and d) Not an actual argument. What do you mean by "going after his scumbuddy" You've gone after at least 7 people today, all with the same exact degree of certainty. I can assure you, no scum is shaking in their boots at the sounds of your accusations. You make them way too often, way too strong, and with way too little basis in reality.

But as for TSQ, I find your attempt to keep the suspicion on me, discredit me, and again force a useless claim out of me to be suspicious (obviously).

Tack on mafiaSSK's track record, your request for us to completely ignore that track record, and your defense of Faerie (you seem very eager to tell us that he is town) and, well, I think everyone should keep an eye on you.

But I still want to lynch Nano.

Did you ever consider the fact that possibly...Just possibly, a pro town player might want to lynch you? Think about it, even if every scum has attacked you, which is not likely, the amount of pro town players finding you suspicious would still out number them...It makes literally no sense for you to think attacking you is scummy when so many people are doing it. Sure, some of them could be scum, but all of them? And is it likely? No fucking way....

[Thestatusquo]

Without the threat of a lynch, there's literally no incentive for a player to do ANYTHING once they have reached 5-6 votes, and thus it loses all purpose.

I agree, but the threat to lynch can only come from players who are not already voting for the lynchee, and that seemed to me what was lacking. So FaerieLord's request of a claim was premature in my eyes.
I always thought the purpose of bandwagoning was finding out who's scum and who isn't, and not simply extracting a claim. I see that more as a last resort.

I agree that this wagon horribly failed at everything though.

Up to page 13 and the Zeek bandwagon has completely disintegrated for no logical reason that I can see...

Can only speak for me, but somehow the town seemed to have come to the consensus that "Zeek is scummy when he's town, so his scumminess here is a null tell", so that Zeek seemed pretty unlynchable, regardless of what he does.

If you can change the town consensus, kudos to you, I'd happily put my vote back on him if I see it's not a waste of time anymore.

Would like to hear from SirTornado.

The purpose of a bandwagon is not really to gain information on the person you are bandwagoning so much as information on all the other players in the game. Who the bandwagon is on, in that regard, is really immaterial. Secondary is the need to lynch scum (on day one at least) because both kinds of wagons lead to good information. So you want to get them to claim to make sure that youre not lynching someone thats confirmable town. The claim will save him, and we'll have a better chance of lynching scum on the next bandwagon. Thats how these things work. The way town wins this game is with information.

I know that was the reasoning, but to me, it seems like really stupid logic...especially when the sample size we are drawing from is so small. If you were able to point to 5-10 games where he did these actions as town, then I would say you could safely say there was an established meta that could be drawn upon.

But even given that, I say we lynch the bastard anyway. He has not contributed a single meaningful thing to the game, and he will be a liability on our side the whole rest of the game. The way I see it, he's either scum or scum are going to make sure not to kill him the whole game just so we have to deal with him.

Lastly, to me theres no way that ALL these scummy things he's doing are him being a bad player. I'm willing to bet that even if acting like a useless scummy fuck IS his meta, some of what he's doing are genuinely scum tells.

[Thestatusquo]

Protip...If you're straight out asking for a claim...It's not role fishing...It's asking for a claim. I already explained the difference earlier. The reason why rolefishing is a scum tell is that it's trying to be covert. Asking for a claim from someone at l-1,2 is not role fishing.

[Thestatusquo]

Do you see any downsides in getting more players opinions before ending day1?

Also, yes.

There is only a certain point up to which extra discussion is useful. Eventually you get to a point where everyone is just beating a dead horse. Considering the most useful information from day ones comes from the claim and the lynch, and not the discussion, anyway, I see no reason why we're not at a lynching threshold right now.

I would definitely like to hear from SirT before we move forward, but I feel like the others you mention have given their opinions on lynching zeek just fine previously in the thread.

Also, your statement is not responsive to what FL said. He accused to of sitting on the fence with regards to placing your

vote

there is no reason why placing your vote is going to not give others the chance to ring in on the matter unless someone quickhammers, and if that happens, hip hip hooray we've caught scum because no pro town player would do that.

[Thestatusquo]

Wait, disregard that last bit...He is at l-1. We need to wait for a claim and a post from SirT before anyone even THINKS about hammering.

[Thestatusquo]

Wait, disregard that last bit...He is at l-1. We need to wait for a claim and a post from SirT before anyone even THINKS about hammering.

unvote
vote: ZeekLTK

Epic fail.

[Thestatusquo]

It was Hammah Time!

So you're one of those players. We're lynching you tomorrow, and if you're not scum, I'm putting you on my mental shitlist of players never to associate with.

[Thestatusquo]

Because why the fuck would you hammer him without a claim! That makes absolutely zero sense from any pro town perspective.

[Thestatusquo]

So uh... Mafia gave us a free kill, or kudos to the doctor or something...


Either way, Time to policy lynch grease...

Top suspect TSPN.

vote: Greasy spot

So, greasy, your role better be confirmable, or you're swinging today.

[Thestatusquo]

We wait for a claim, then hammer him. Thats that.

[Thestatusquo]

Expanding upon that, policy lynches do suck, but a, there's got to be a reason why people don't hammer prematurely (aside from that being a boneheaded stupid play.) If we don't lynch the occasional town who does it (and thats assuming he's town, which is a stretch) then the scum can do it all they want.

Second, we have a unique situation here where the mafia didn't get a kill in last night, which means that not only are we up ++ on information for tomorrow, we're up a kill. So if he IS town, then he's as good as the mafias kill last night. It's still not great if he's town, but not as bad as it woud be.

[Thestatusquo]

So, in absence of a counter-claim. (or anything else that can explain the lack of kill from last night, for instance if you are a RB it might be in the towns best interest for you to claim here...) I think that we have to assume that Greasy spot and TSPN are pro town.

therefore,

Unvote Greasy

(makes a mental note to add him to the list of players never to play with again.)

Now, on to more pressing things.

I have a town read on FL,
I have a slightly townie read on iceman (could flip this on a re-read, remember it's a newb town read, which is only slightly different from a newb scum read.)
TSPN is town by logic of N1
GreasySpot is town by logic of N1
I see myself as town.

This leaves me with:
TDC
Marmalade
Lowell
CaptainCake
Sir Tornado
Johoohno

And probably 2-3 scums.

Would really like more participation from every single one of those players, so that we can have a productive day 2. Sir T in particular would be nice.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, and this is funny, Lowell moved his vote TO GS only AFTER GS claimed doc. Scummiest move I think I've ever seen: he wasn't voting for GS until he learned that he was doc. That's so ridiculously scummy I can't help but change my FoS to:

vote: Lowell

I suggest you all take a look at him as well.

I wasn't voting him because I was voting you. My vote on him now is to demonstrate my not believing his claim. The doc claim makes him MORE suspicious in my eyes, not less.

Unless someone counterclaims or offers us a equally plausible explanation of last night...How is he NOT cleared town?

[Thestatusquo]

FoS: Iceman

UGH! Stop rolefishing!

If Lowel has any kind of reason to suspect that GS is not telling the truth, do you REALLY think it's to the towns best interest for him to tell it? Think what that would mean.

THINK for fucks sake.

He's obviously saying he doesn't like leaving greasy spot alive, you dolt... You're 90% sure he's scum now? Why? Because of some missinterpretation of his post that doesn't make any sense at all? Because he's voting you? Do tell, please dear god how can you be 90% certain that he's scum? You're sounding just like zeek.

Oh, and I am not a doc or a RB.

[Thestatusquo]

Or he just doesn't agree with you. That's also a possibility.

Doesn't agree with what? He said Greasy was town, then he defended Lowell for not believing Greasy, who claimed a town role. It's totally inconsistent, I'd like to hear TSQ speak for himself on that one, since I'm sure he'll do a fine job.

The two are not tied. That is to say that lowells alignment is not dependant on greasy spots. Lowell is allowed to disagree with me without it being scummy. Seeing as the potential scum motives and town motives for voting the way he has are basically nil, its a null tell. You haven't given any reason for me to believe lowell is scum at all, let ALONE to make me 90% certain that he is scum. When you throw out numbers that big with basically zero reasoning, it is YOU who looks scummy, not the person you're attacking.

Back to the role fishing. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, thats not the point. In fact, its more a point against you than anything else that you'd ask for information which has no value to you. The point is your asking for information to be revealed which there is no benefit to reveal to the town. This is why I asked you to THINK. Anything he could claim (and I pretty much agree hes not the doc.) would be another town power role outing himself, cop, rb, anything with information revealing himself. If he had alterior information, it is in the towns best interest to keep it hidden, therefore asking for him to reveal any information that is not known is decidedly anti town on your part.

[Thestatusquo]

FoS: Iceman

UGH! Stop rolefishing!

This is absolutely Stupid.

If Lowel has any kind of reason to suspect that GS is not telling the truth, do you REALLY think it's to the towns best interest for him to tell it? Think what that would mean.

YES!!! It's in the towns best interest. How could it not be. If he has something that proves someone is a liar. Spill the beans.

THINK for fucks sake.

And I suppose you are.

He's obviously saying he doesn't like leaving greasy spot alive, you dolt... You're 90% sure he's scum now? Why? Because of some missinterpretation of his post that doesn't make any sense at all? Because he's voting you? Do tell, please dear god how can you be 90% certain that he's scum? You're sounding just like zeek.

This is very townie behavior here isn't it.

Oh, and I am not a doc or a RB.

My comments to the above are in Bold.

lol.

Thats all I have to say to this.

Lol.

[Thestatusquo]

The point is your asking for information to be revealed which there is no benefit to reveal to the town.

I don't want anything revealed. I believe the doc claim.

You haven't given any reason for me to believe lowell is scum at all, let ALONE to make me 90% certain that he is scum.

It's not my job to convince you he is scum. However, I don't see Lowell being a town power role because of the way he INITIALLY REACTED at the start of day 2 (he would already have whatever information he was going to have at that stage):

vote iceman.

For post 438. He seemed a little to eager to jump on someone for the hammer.

At this point a power role would KNOW if Grease was anything other than town. Why wouldn't he take advantage of the opportunity to get rid of him THEN, when everyone else was piling on him?

When Grease claims, Lowell says:

I really hate doc claims.

That was his first comment after the doc claim. That's not something that a power role with more info than the average player says: that's something frustrated scum says. He doesn't say anything that MIGHT indicate that he knows Grease isn't doc until a few posts later, and if he was a power role, THAT would have been the time to start saying "guys, grease ain't the doc." So that's a big part of the reason I'm convinced he's scum.

1) Yes you are. Lol. Reread, dude. It has nothing to do with being a doc.

2) Yes, actually, thats exactly what your job is. Your job as a protown player (presumably) is to get scum lynched. The only way to do that is to convince other town players of your suspicions. If you do not do that then you are playing very poorly indeed.

3) Actually, no. This might have something to do with your inexperience. I too hate doc claims, and when I read that I pretty much interpretted to mean "why do they always claim doc" or something similar. This is because something like 70% (number obviously pulled from my ass but you get the idea) of scum fake claim doctor or cop. So much to the point that babyjesus (a great player, btw, you should read some of his older games) once instituted a policy of lynching all doctor claims. So I took lowells "I hate doc claims" much more of a "ughhhh...Now I have to try to determine if he's scum fake claiming" then anything else.

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ, your point #3 is very poor. I have played a good deal at epic mafia and I understand that scum often claim doc. In another game I am currently play, SD Reaper claimed doc and I'm convinced he is scum, so I'm not THAT inexperienced. I understand exactly what's going on here, whether you like it or not. The policy of lynching all doctor claims is retarded, I don't care how good a player babyjesus is. The sort of defense you're putting up for Lowell really makes me feel like you two are the scum. You seem to suggest that you think he's probably some kind of protown power role, and then you post this:

So I took lowells "I hate doc claims" much more of a "ughhhh...Now I have to try to determine if he's scum fake claiming" then anything else.

Lol are you retarded? My third point wasn't even defending lowell, it was saying you missinterpreted him...lol.

My point is that you're incorrect about Lowell being a pro town power role. If this game only has a cop and a doctor I can tell you confidently that Lowell is neither.

[Thestatusquo]

My text in between the quote and his text.

Also, LOL.

I never said lowell was a pro town power role.

I said that we dont know what he is, so asking him to reveal information that he may or may not have is anyi town. also.

Vote: Iceman

this is because I think a claim from him would be very helpful at this point.

[Thestatusquo]

My text in between the quote and his text.

Also, LOL.

I never said lowell was a pro town power role.

I said that we dont know what he is, so asking him to reveal information that he may or may not have is anyi town. also.

Vote: Iceman

this is because I think a claim from him would be very helpful at this point.

I'm gonna bold this in case it shows up halfway through the quote.

This only serves to strengthen my TSQ-Lowell hypothesis. If everyone else wouldn't mind joining the discussion I'd be pleased.

Dear god yes. Please let someone else talk. I'm pretty much crying from listening to you try to "logick"

[Thestatusquo]

I am very excited for this game to move forward as I am curious to see who is scum, so I think a lynch should happen soon, even if it is me (though, for the town's sake, I wouldn't recommend it). Here is a major Zeek comment, though I think my suspicions are based more in logic than in OMGUS - I'm fairly sure at least two of the three scum are riding me right now. I don't have any strong notions outside of them, so I'm hoping I'm correct.

What logic? You've given none whatsoever! You're doing literally EXACTLY what zeek did.

Tell me your logic now please, don't just tell me you've said it.

[Thestatusquo]

If Lowel has any kind of reason to suspect that GS is not telling the truth, do you REALLY think it's to the towns best interest for him to tell it? Think what that would mean.

THINK for fucks sake.

Before I shut up for awhile, please explain the above quote, TSQ. You said you didn't say you thought Lowell was a town power role. What are you trying to suggest in that quote, then? That he is psychic? Also, if he knew Greasy was lying, FUCK YES IT WOULD BE USEFUL TO THE TOWN FOR HIM TO SAY HOW!

I was directly responding to your post where you were asking him to share information if he has it. My point was that the only way he would have information is if he were some kind of power role. (or scum, but you cant really expect him to come out and say "LOL, I KNOW HE'S SCUM CUZ I AM." )Therefore, the only way he could answer your question would be to out himself. This doesn't need a certainty of him being a power role, but only the possibility, and while you might not grant that possibility as you think he's 90% scum, lawl, I do think that theres a possibility that he's a town power role, along with a possibility that he's scum, along with a possibility that he is vanilla. See?

On the Zeek-Iceman thing:

Anti-town behavior is anti-town behavior. Just because GreasySpot this time hammered as town without allowing discussion does not make me any less suspicious of people who do so in the future, it just means that even town players are capable of anti-town action, which is a good grain of salt for everyone to keep in mind while playing anyway. Similarly, just because Zeek OMGUSed everyone who attacked him, said they were SURELY scum, and didn't give any reasons to convince any of the rest of us as town, it does not make those actions town actions, nor does it make me any less suspicious of people who do it. It once again just proves that even town players can play horrendously and anti-town.

Now, Iceman, you say you are 90% certain that lowell is scum. Please post a case for me outlining why you think so?

Consequently, you now are "sure" I am scum as well, despite admitting that your big piece of evidence my "defending lowell" doesn't necessarily mean we're scumbuddies, but rather than you want it to mean that, so you're assuming it does. (I'm not making it up, folks, here's the quote.)

And it doesn't mean that he's not. either, so I'd prefer to keep it in mind rather than dismiss it, thanks.

So your case against me, as far as I can see it is a self described null tell, and he fact that I'm attacking you... Really nice case there...

My question to you is there anything that I'm missing? Please elaborate on your case on me.

@Greasy spot, yes, TSPN was my number one suspect, but barring a counter claim or another explanation of what happened last night, he is confirmed town...Are you disputing this fact? Do you think I should be pressuring and voting a player who I think is confirmed town?

So far the list of players who have claimed not doc:
TSQ
TSPN
Faerie
TDC
Iceman

I don't think lowell did.

Who are we missing?

Mod, it looks like we're in need of some proddings and possible replecements.

[Thestatusquo]

Now, Iceman, you say you are 90% certain that lowell is scum. Please post a case for me outlining why you think so?

No.

My question to you is there anything that I'm missing? Please elaborate on your case on me.

There's probably something you're missing, and I don't feel like elaborating at the moment.

Let me ask you something: Do you think that refusing reasonable questions makes you look pro town? Expanding upon that, do you think that me asking you to explain your suspicions is unreasonable, and if so, why?

Furthermore, of the players who are currently attacking you, I would say lowell is doing so the least strenuously. If you really would like to point at someone and ask them to make a case on you, TSPN is probably the most logical choice, since A, he is confirmed town, and B, he is the one most in favor of your lynch. Its a fair point, though. TSPN, would you mind outlining your reasons why you think iceman is scum?

Also, you keep telling me that "I am sure lowell is town." Note that I have never said any such thing. I am lacking any read on lowell at all, currently. Your case against him, as far as I can see, is crap. I will always defend other players against crap cases, so as to avoid crap cases gaining steam. If you would like to elaborate on your case, perhas you may convince me, but as of right now you've given me nothing to think you're correct in assuming he's scum. In my mind lowel is as likely to be scum as he is town right now. As are a couple of other people in this game. In some cases the scale tilts the other way (for instance I am about 70% sure FL is town and 60-65% sure you're scum) and in some cases I am treating players as confirmed town (GS and TSPN) If someone were to attack any other player in the game as you've done to Lowell, I would have defended them. If lowell did something I found scummy, I would attack him like anyone else. YOu don't seem to understand this...

The problem isn't that i think lowell is town, it's that your case is terrib;le.

[Thestatusquo]

Lowell, the point is that we have proof a doc exists (last night) so if we get a counterclaim, we have caught scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Lowell, the point is that we have proof a doc exists (last night) so if we get a counterclaim, we have caught scum.

You're stretching the truth here, but we do have a strong indication of it.

Right, obviously there are other scenarios which make last night possible, but the most likely (occhams razor) is that GS is telling the truth.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with everything FL just said, minus the claim part, which I will keep in mind for future reference.

[Thestatusquo]

Surye

is in for Marmalade,

Celebloki

is in for Captain Cake.

Thank god.

[Thestatusquo]

Sir T - thanks for finally posting, this game has been slow as a snot.

notice how Johoonoo quietly tries to derail the Iceman bandwagon by voting Captain cake (lurker) on the last page?

Sir T - while I appreciate the brevity and conciseness of your post, you, like Lowell, have thrown a vote on me without any reasoning whatsover... you actually challenge both Johoonoo and Lowell in your post but do nothing more than vote for me, so I would really appreciate if SOMEONE out there would do me a favor and lay out WHAT IN GOD'S NAME the case is against me because so far, no one's said a thing. I've taken the time to outline my thoughts so I'd appreciate the same level of respect if you're going to form a seemingly random, scummy bandwagon. Thanks.

For the first time in the game, iceman makes a fair point.

SirT, you make arguments against two players which are dependent on Iceman being scum, but you never explained why you thought iceman was scum in the first place.

[Thestatusquo]

Iceman, I thing you are scum due to the nature of your arguments with Zeek on D1. Your case on him was based on a number of non scummy goof ups by Zeek. It was too opportunistic.

Lowell, what is a real doctor likely to claim when close to a lynch?

While reading D1, I also had a feeling that I need to keep a close eye on TDC. His playstyle in this game is exactly like mine is when I am scum.

Then why do you not have a problem with the rest of the people who were on that wagon, most notably FL and myself.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, I am 99% convinced that FL is town, largely due to his reactions to doc claim and it's aftermath. Your b/w on Zeek wasn't scummy like Iceman's was.

FL, I am not talking about the b/w that lead to Zeek lynch. I am talking about Iceman's interactions with Zeek after the very first b/w on him, which lasted several pages.

Why? Your claims are lacking warrants.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean specifically your assertion that "my B/W (what does that mean anyway) on zeek wasn't scummy like icemans was"

Tells me nothing.

It's a restated claim without any sort of analytical warrant.

[Thestatusquo]

In general, a counter claim is more likely to be believed than the original claim, mainly because there is less motivation for a scum to counterclaim out of the blue than there is for them to try to fake claim to save their skin; the one for one trade just isnt worth it for them. Therefore scum are more likely to be the one fake claiming than the one counterclaiming.

Couple that with the fact that you were the most suspicious before you claimed, and they were not, I think it's pretty safe to say that any counter claim comes along and it will be you we're hanging.

[Thestatusquo]

FL, why is iceman town?

[Thestatusquo]

Why is contribution indicative of alignment?

[Thestatusquo]

That's a pretty solid case on johoohno.

I would also like to know what YOU see as the major difference between the Lowell case and the Johoono case - please give me a real answer and not just some witty quip.

Interesting in this response.

[Thestatusquo]

In the future, FL, I would prefer if you let the mod do his job in prodding players, and you do your job in playing the game. Conflating these two things can often lead to conflicts of interest, and although I trust you, some might not.

Frankly you're lucky you didnt get modkilled for that.

[Thestatusquo]

I never said that it

was

abuse. I said that the potential for abuse makes it unacceptable. Mods exist for a reason.

[Thestatusquo]

Why aren't we lynching iceman again?

[Thestatusquo]

The OMGUS strategy continues.

[Thestatusquo]

vote: Joohoono

[Thestatusquo]

hi. I already know the relevent roles in this game, so I didn't feel compelled to wait for a claim.

[Thestatusquo]

unvote, vote joohoono

If the mod cares. It was clearly my intent to hammer.

[Thestatusquo]

Because I'm a DOUCHE.

[Thestatusquo]

I was feeling pretty absurd, actually.

[Thestatusquo]

Why?

[Thestatusquo]

Why?

Answer my question.

[Thestatusquo]

because I thought he was scum. Are we seriously going to attack me now for hammering scum?

Srsly?

Context is why do you think that wagon is most productive.

[Thestatusquo]

No, it isn't. If someone wants to give me a reason I'd answer. If not, Iceman is still the play for today. There wasn't a lot of movement at the end of the day yesterday between joohoo and ice votes. Their both being scum explains why.

?

Unvote, vote lowell.

Iceman is the play for today. . . serious.

Wait, what?

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, there were...

I think he forgot that we had no kill the first night, and only gave one result for the one night kill...

[Thestatusquo]

Which would make him a liar...

[Thestatusquo]

But I will wait for him to say something before he hammered.

I'm not in a killing mood.

You know.

I've been thinking about how precious life is lately.

Can't we all just live happily after and not kill each other?

[Thestatusquo]

I am now feeling more blood thirsty. I had my coffee.

Also, I do not see how if I were a cop, I would forget that I had two investigation reports. But another thing to realize is that if he IS a cop, he's given us two confirmed innocents, which go along with our already confirmed doc protect... Which means he's more than been useful in death. I am happy to kill him all things considered.

Vote: Lowell

[Thestatusquo]

P sure the play is tdc, celebloki, or sir T.

P sure I need a reread.

P sure we should massclaim today.

Any objections to any of these three statements?

[Thestatusquo]

Mod, prods on the players who have yet to post today, plz.

[Thestatusquo]

It very well could be the right play, but it is the right play after we massclaim.

[Thestatusquo]

It very well could be the right play, but it is the right play after we massclaim.

I respectfully disagree.

Well, here's the thing. A very large majority has expressed a desire to mass claim. If you refuse, then I will vote you, and presumably so will the rest of the players who are pushing for a mass claim. YOu will then either claim, or you will be lynched. Then we will progress with the mass claim.

You can either claim with us, or we will lynch you. The choice is really yours.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm vanilla as well.

[Thestatusquo]

Pretty simple. I thought you bread crumbed cop at least 3 times.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't want to lynch Iceman.

Ok. Three is a major exaggeration, but this post is the one that really made me think you were bread crumbing cop, since you had at least semi strongly attacked iceman at other points during the game, and then all of a sudden you give us this with absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.

It felt so strongly like a breadcrumbed innocent and I was so sure you were innocent that I took it as almost certain that you were the cop.

As is, I don't think I believe the claim. I see very little reason to target FL last night.

[Thestatusquo]

Now I feel really dumb about the second hammer.

I gave no time for surye to respond to the cop claim, which would have been really useful for determining whether or not his claim is real or BS.

<- Idiot.

[Thestatusquo]

I think thats speculative.

1) I have run a game with a godfather without a cop.

2) Thats speculative, as a godfather does not always have to be cop immune, sometimes they are nightkill immune instead.

But I guess I kind of see your point.

[Thestatusquo]

not that I would particularly believe it out of those two.

[Thestatusquo]

Your only comment on FL in the thread is saying that you think he's pro town.

But I think your reluctance to mass claim is probably a point in your favor.

[Thestatusquo]

It has a bit for sure. I say we just lynch SirT. We're still at an advantage of players

no

[Thestatusquo]

Thats a hammer, correct?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm happy voting for TDC or celebloki

[Thestatusquo]

Hi.

[Thestatusquo]

no u

[Thestatusquo]

FaerieLord was the MVP this game.

[Thestatusquo]

Finally.

So, was I obvscum, or was everybody else obvtown?
I suppose Cele was obv-solurkythathecouldnthavesentanightchoice...

For me I was just so sure of my town reads on the other players, that it just left cele and you. Seeing as we had time to lynch both of you, I was pretty cool with whichever went first.