Mini 624 - Game Over!

[Cass]

/confirm and hello everyone. I have to reread before giving opinions. Except for Chenhsi: I am in other games with him and all he ever does is lurk. It makes me want to lynch him as a policy. But seeing as there's already a wagon on him, I'll not do anything rash before I read up on this.

Unvote

[Cass]

Ok, some observations:
Wumbo: the wagon on him made sense. His early claim was a bit weird and his defense contradictory and weak. I dislike how he just seemed to roll over and die, he even suggested he'd self-vote. His reason for voting DWS was also very weak. He looks quite scummy to me. But he could be very clumsy newb town.

Dark Wingstalker: Seems very careless, doesn't pay attention, makes lots of mistakes. Yet he claims not to be a newbie. It looks bad, but I can't think of a good reason for scum to act that way. Unless he hoped for a quicklynch on Wumbo?

Geraintm: Seems to be lurking in plain sight, I don't get much of a read on him. Lot's of posts with mainly very little content. He said one thing that rings alarm bells:

imaginality - i really don'tlike people putting u lists of questions for others to answer. i think t makes a player look like they are participating in a game when all they are doing is trying to force others to talk and incrimate themselves. you should at least answer the questions yourself

Forcing people to talk is good. Why would a townie be afraid of incriminating himself? This could also be a defense of Chenhsi. (Who doesn't deserve one.) Quite scummy.

Litral: Votes Wumbo for claiming town. Now, if this was a hammer vote... maybe. But just for the claim? Seems a bit scummy.

Inspector Godot: contributes minimally, seems very non-committal.

Kenfucius: Seems to have disappeared since july 9th.

MOD: prod Kenfucius, please

Still tempted to jump on the Chenhsi wagon on general principal. I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me to vote anyone really.

[Cass]

Well, perhaps contradictory it the wrong word... anyways I couldn't follow the logic behind your actions. Maybe I should have said 'confusing'. The whole interaction around your 'claim' and the wagon on you didn't make a lot of sense to me. No idea what to make of it, though.

[Cass]

I don't believe that lurking is necessarily a bad thing, especially on a day 1 situation. I mean, I lurked for a little while, and look where that got me. So for now I'll stay off Chenhsi's back unless something happens.

Look where it got you? It got you almost self-lynched! How does that
make lurking good? Your logic keeps confounding me, good sir
1) Do you think that Chenhsi is town? And what exactly could happen if he doesn't post?
2) Another thing I keep wondering: what is so tempting about quicklynching yourself?
3) Could you explain your vote for DarkWing a bit more?

As for dark wingstalker, I think he may have just been overeager in casting a vote without really counting. I'm still suspicious of imaginality and Kenfucius at this point, but nhat does bring up a good point. So for now I'll harp on dark wing
vote: dark wingstalker

I mean, first you accept the vote was an accident - so you don't think he's scum. Then you vote him anyway. (The point nhat brought up was the L-1 vote, which Wumbo just called unintentional...)
Later, you imply the vote was meant for pressure (despite first calling yourself a blunt guy, you had a hidden motive now?)

unvote: Dark WingStalker
for now. I didn't give a 12 hour ultimatum, but I suppose he's spoken his peace enough for me to take alleviate some pressure.

4) What exactly in DWS' defense convinced you to unvote?

[Cass]

No, Chen, I don't want you to claim. Knowing you have a PR would make this only ten times as frustrating. How about you ask for replacement instead? Someone who'll actually do some work for whichever team (s)he's on. Jeeze.

On the other hand: if you're going to claim, claim doc. Then the scum can kill you if we don't.

[Cass]

I deserve that Stranger... but I'm really starting to hate playing with Chenhsi - now I fear he'll claim something and we'll be forced to keep him alive because of it and tolerate his lurking and uselessness for a long long time. Not looking forward to that at all.

[Cass]

Joy. I was afraid of that. I'm inclined to believe it, too. I suggest that from now on we ignore chen, like he ignores us, until he says something interesting or someone counterclaims. That's what I'm going to do.

Vote: Wumbo

Because he's being an idiot, and one idiot per game is more than enough.

[Cass]

@Wumbo: why yes, it's ad hominem - I don't like to be on a team with someone who finds killing himself the height of amusement. Sue me. (And if you're not on my team, there's no harm in lynching you anyway...) [sarcasm]I also spot a contradiction: you seemed to really enjoy getting wagoned the first time, and now you're suddenly complaining??[/sarcasm]

@imaginality: I agree. I think, unfortunately, Wumbo is most likely town as well. That vote was mostly a way to vent some frustration. For now, I'll ignore Wumbo as well.

---

I like the case against DWS + Litral. However, after his last post, I'd prefer to lynch DWS first. If he flips scum, Litral will look pretty bad...

DWS:

Damnit chenshi, You just had to be an important powerrole. I do assume you'll inform us if you get any guilty reports, rather then just lurking away in the corner?? You came very very close to getting yourself lynched on day 1, and that woulda screwed that game up for us.

Does not sound sincere to me. Also, cop claiming D1 is not much better than getting lynched, in terms of screwing up the game.

Chenshi is claimed cop, so we cant really lynch him, until he breaks our trust by failing to clear himself,

I think this might hint at the scum having a roleblocker, which would make our cop completely useless.
He still wants to lynch lurkers, the safe choice for scum. He is careful not to hop on the Wumbo-wagon yet (well, if you would call my vote a wagon), but perhaps he had not seen that one yet.

unvote
Vote: DarkWingStalker

[Cass]

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. That was just me being really annoyed that Chen was obviously about to claim a PR and so make the game a lot harder for us to win :p Also just maybe, if he had actually claimed doc, the scum would have had some doubt whether he really was the doc, creating a bit of wifom for them.
But, alas, he did what I feared he would do...

I propose kenfucius and maxwellhouse show up. It would be nice if one of you could counterclaim, kthx.

[Cass]

EBWOP: my post above was in reply to Geraintm

[Cass]

Your comment on my silly 'claim doc if you have to claim' post. My apologies for making things confusing.

[Cass]

@Litral: What strategy? The strategy to make himself a guaranteed nightkill? And do you honestly think Chenhsi has a strategy?

(In fact, I think my post actually made claiming doc slightly safer for him, not that it matters in any way... Would have given him the excuse that I made him do it, nice little wifom for the scum to chew on.)

[Cass]

Frankly, I did not consider the possibility that Chen has a strategy. I certainly didn't think through all the possibilities he would have if he did have one. That post was 95% pure frustration, 0% innovative idea (Thus my later rationalizations of it are a bit fail.)
I can see what you mean now but I can assure you I had not considered that option (ever, in fact, seeing as I'm quite new at this game). I will remember it for other games.

In other news, it's interesting to see DWS and Litral weakly defend eachother (with plenty wiggle room to fall back on if the other flips scum).

[Cass]

@geraintm: yes, the ulterior motive was that I really wanted Chenhsi to be gone from the game. I didn't think saying something stupid myself would make his stupid claim any worse. Feel free to disagree, it's not some kind of brilliant tactic that I'm very proud of. Can we stop talking about it now?

Cass? The continual misrepresentation works against her, as does her dodging of certain questions.

Uhm, who and what do I misrepresent continually? That is a pretty huge accusation to throw at someone without backing it up. And which questions do I dodge? Frankly, I feel I have answered every question posed at me three or four times already. So please, point me towards those dodged questions.[/b]

[Cass]

Litral, that was such an extremely scummy post

If DWS flips scum, you only lose if you are indeed scum. The goal of this game (if you're town!) is to kill the scum, not to survive to the end. Getting yourself killed in exchange for getting a scum killed is pretty much always a fair exchange. And by no means a lose-lose situation.

And if he flips town, you win as well, because then your actions suddenly look much better in hindsight!
A

win-win

situation, provided you are not scum

[Cass]

DWS, I still want to know what you mean by accusing me of 'continual misrepresentation'. And which questions I have been dodging.

[Cass]

Top two 'gets on my nerves' (but alas no scum):
1) Chenhsi
2) Wumbo

Scummiest:
1) DWS
2) Maxwell, Stranger, Litral, geraintm (in no particular order)

[Cass]

Dude, I replaced Tom quite a while ago.

Though I see the list in the first post is not up to date...

Mod: can this please be corrected?

[Cass]

I have no clue why he would, but then I have no clue why Chenhsi acts the way he acts, ever. I still think DWS is scummy, but two cops is pretty hard to believe. I don't see scum counterclaiming like Max did, so I do believe Max.

Unvote
Vote : Chenhsi

I think that's L-1 (not that I'd mind hammering)

[Cass]

I considered that, but don't see how it would clear things up. What if they both say they checked the other, and got a guilty? Or a lying scum could name any player whatsoever and say he got 'innocent'. It proves nothing.

I agree the claim seems to make no sense. But Chenhsi's death could give us lots of information: if he's scum, Max is probably honest (and we hope there's someone around who can protect him). If he's a cop, Max is probably scum.
The only catch I can see is they're both scum... seems highly unlikely, but in any case it makes Chen still a good lynch today.

[Cass]

EBWOP: and differing sanities would take several nights to figure out, we don't have the time to potentially keep a scum alive for such a length of time.

[Cass]

Another option is there's more than one anti-town faction. In that case Max & DWS are most likely both scum (of different factions). There was only one kill, but it's entirely possible that Max was targeted and protected.

There's a few options:

1) We lynch DWS. If Max is honest or of another scum group, DWS turns up guilty. If Max is lying scum or insane, DWS turns up town.
2) We lynch Max. If he flips town cop, we should probably lynch DWS. Though that would greatly increase the probability of an insane cop (two sane town cops seems a bit much). If Max flips scum, this does not confirm DWS as innocent, because of:
3) This could be a big fat gambit and they're both mafia. That way, we kill one and it proves the other innocent.

So we could be looking at two scum, two innocents or any combination.

I have a bad feeling about Max. He doesn't seem confident about his own investigation. And if we're dealing with a scum group of three, this gambit is very much worth it. Also, DWS is very much the easy target for a lynch. Lynching DWS will not confirm Max nor prove his sanity with any kind of certainty. So:

Vote: MaxwellHouse

[Cass]

Right now, I think they are both scum. That's why I'm voting Max. But admitted the risk that they're both innocent - though in that case Max is an insane cop and not too useful to us.

I do not like this situation. (And I blame Chenhsi )

[Cass]

You have a point, leaving DWS alive isn't particularly useful. I guess we'll just have to hope something happens during night to confirm Max either way.
Because there's still the chance that Max is a sane cop:

Unvote
Vote: DarkWingStalker

I do want to emphasize that whatever DWS flips, it doesn't (completely) confirm Max as anything.

[Cass]

Nhat: it wouldn't be such a bad gambit for a scum in this case. Chenhsi looked quite bad, and would have been lynched over most counterclaimers. There was DWS (whether scum or town) as an obvious victim for day two. All that keeps a scum-Max alive for two or three days at least, while distracting attention from his scumbuddies, a good chance of drawing out more power roles and control over who to mislynch.

So, call it lining up lynchings if you want - unless something confirms Max by tomorrow, I think we can't let him live. I'm willing to give him that chance, because several people seem inclined to trust him.

[Cass]

Well, imaginality suspected Wumbo (dropped that case), you (a lot), Litral (as your buddy) and geraintm. So it could point to one or more of those being scum. Especially if you flip scum. It could point to Max being scum and killing him to reinforce the case on you even more. Especially if you flip town.

He was inclined to believe Max' claim. No idea if that could be relevant. We might count it in favor of Max, if you flip scum.

He also came off as very townie and an active scumhunter. That alone might have been cause enough.

[Cass]

maxwellhouse, I have a question: If you investigated Dark wingstalker and he came back as guilty, then why are you worrying about sanity rather than voting him?

FoS: maxwellhouse

That's why I voted Max earlier, he doesn't seem convinced by his own investigation. Even though I assume he checked DWS for being the scummiest player...

[Cass]

I still think lynching DWS is the best option. Many of us thought he was scummy day 1. A claimed cop reports a guilty on him. I don't see any better evidence on anyone else.

Tonight, Max checks anyone he chooses, he certainly doesn't announce who. He tells us, first thing tomorrow, and hopes there's other town power roles who can help confirm him at some point. We decide on the next step tomorrow, based on what DWS flipped and Max'result. No need for lining up lynches today

[Cass]

Maxwell, any objections to my plan? Anyone else? (post 433)

[Cass]

If you are insane and we know it, you're anything but useless. If you're paranoid, you

are

useless.

K, I think Dark is at L-1... could someone hammer please?

[Cass]

If there are two town cops, how is it scummy to doubt the second one? There was no way a townie could have known it was true. Seems more scummy to me to

not

doubt the claim.

There are a few reasons why godot hasn't revealed who he investigated, but I want to hear it from him.

This. I want either good reasons, or night actions. Nhats role does seem less likely. Both true is impossible. There do seem to be a lot of investigators in this town, either way...

If Nhat is scum, that would mean a watcher or tracker type role among the scum, right? If Godot is scum, the town has a really high number of investigative roles. I don't know what's the more probable scenario.

[Cass]

Ok, after that post I'll

Unvote
Vote : Godot

Wth? Seems really powerful? Aren't you forgetting: completely contradicts your claim?

I don't see why you left those actions out of your earlier post. I think you're scum.

[Cass]

Because he directly contradicts your claim. Meaning one of you has to be scum. Yet you are voting him 'to survive'. And throw doubt on him 'because it is too powerful'. You make no sense, man. Do you not see the contradiction? And why did you not tell us your investigations when you claimed?

[Cass]

@Godot: why are you ignoring my posts?

[Cass]

EBWOP: or was that the hammer already?

[Cass]

Did you just self-vote? Why?? Three cops... I guess that proves differing sanities.

I do not understand Battousai's logic for SC being scum. Is the only reason really that you didn't investigate him? Because that doesn't add up. Besides, with such a load of cops, the scum might well have stuff like a roleblocker and/or a godfather. So don't take any investigation results for granted! When I have more time, I'll look at all the claims in detail.

[Cass]

Ebwop: yeah, the GF is already gone of course (shouldn't post when sleepy...), but I mean another fancy power for the last scum. Or an SK who doesn't show up on investigations or something.

[Cass]

Ok, the claims up till now:

Chenhsi: cop, lynched day 1. Could have been any sanity.
Max: cop, got a guilty on the Godfather. So, paranoid or insane? Killed night 2.
Nhat: forensic investigator. Saw Godot-scum target imaginality. Killed night three.
Battousai: claims cop, innocent on Cass, geraintm & Litral. At least one of these is true (five mafia seems excessive ), so he isn't insane. Could be naive though.
Strangercoug: claims tracker. Tracked Max to DWS night 1. Got roleblocked night two. Tracked Litral night three (he went nowhere).

- I think a fourth cop should claim now
- I think a roleblocker should claim now

If these two exist, we could make some confirmed townies, possibly even find a scum. I am neither of these roles.

[Cass]

SC, I do not want to speculate about the set-up until everybody has had a chance to claim. Then we can start drawing conclusions. I first want to know what Wumbo, Geraint and Litral (I think that's everyone who hasn't claimed?) have to say for themselves.

[Cass]

Cass, is that a bid for a massclaim?

Not really, unless all of you want one. Right now I would like just those two roles (if they exist at all) to claim. If anyone else has information, they can claim or not at their own discretion.

[Cass]

Hm, looking back Wumbo has already sort of claimed... vanilla I think? Or am I misinterpreting this quote:

Just a small town blue, living in a scummy world.

This was early day one btw, not L-1 for him or anything.

We're just waiting on geraintm then. Unless Wumbo feels he has something to add or explain?

[Cass]

@Stranger - I do not follow your logic anymore. You claim tracker, Battousai claims cop, in an impulse you yell 'counterclaim' and vote him. Then realize your mistake and as a consequence self-vote.

Why?

Then you unvote yourself again.

Why?

Then you decide Batt is scum anyways and you vote him again.

Why?

[Cass]

Indeed, tracking a claimed cop is very useful. It comfirms (or doesn't!) whoever the cop claims to have looked at, and might catch a scum in the act: if the scum doesn't know about the tracker, he'll probably betray himself.

Note that the way and the time SC claimed is no proof of his claim, so this could just be a theoretical discussion.

I really don't want to draw conclusions about who's lying about what before geraint has had a chance to claim. His claim could potentially change everything.

[Cass]

I think we are just waiting on geraintm to claim. Let's just go along and act like he claimed vanilla townie until he posts.

I can't do that. Everything shifts depending on what he claims (4rth cop, roleblocker or neither). I really do not want to draw conclusions until I know. This is annoying.

Mod: could you pretty please prod geraintm for us? His absence is holding up the game for all of us.

[Cass]

Thanks geraint Now we can move on.

My thoughts on this whole situation:

1) 2 dead cops, 1 claimed. Personally, I tend to believe Batt's claim. 3 cops and at least one other investigator makes me think none of the cops was sane. That makes Batt naive and his results null. Max was paranoid or insane, Chenhsi idem.
2) Strangercoug: the only claim right now that is a source of information. He claims tracker, implies a roleblocker and clears Litral. So, either SC is mafia, or the last mafia is a roleblocker.

Conclusions: with no protective roles and no roleblockers on the side of town, 1 NK both nights makes it pretty safe to assume there was three mafia, no SK. Meaning one mafia is still alive. Quite possibly a roleblocker.

Assuming SC is honest makes my suspects: Wumbo & geraintm. Alternatively, SC could be lying, which makes him scum. But I tend to believe SC actually, Litral wasn't the safest name to lie about.

[Cass]

Addendum: to Stranger, Battousai and Litral, there's of course three suspects rather than two: Cass, Wumbo & geraintm.

Litral proposes no-lynch, but with this limited pool of suspects, all claimed vanillas, I think it's much better to lynch someone. On gut I'd say Wumbo. But I should really reread and see if there's evidence on either one of them.

[Cass]

How about this plan:
- we lynch wumbo
- if he isn't scum / the game hasn't ended, Stranger tracks me or geraintm (don't tell us who)
- Battousai checks Stranger (only one he hasn't yet, so)

Gives the scum something to think about. But I'm fairly sure Wumbo is our man anyways. So let's end this today

Vote: Wumbo

[Cass]

In case anyone wants another reason to vote Wumbo - Godot 'investigated' him during night two, 'clearing' him:

Night 2: Investigated Wumbo. He hasn't posted much and I was interested to see if he was a scum trying to go under the radar or possibly a power role keeping quiet. Unfortunately I was told that he was at home, so I guess he's just a normal townie.

[Cass]

Yep, Godot. Who was lying scum. No one has investigated Wumbo for real, as far as I know.

Battousai: claims cop, innocent on Cass, geraintm & Litral. At least one of these is true (five mafia seems excessive ), so he isn't insane. Could be naive though.
Strangercoug: claims tracker. Tracked Max to DWS night 1. Got roleblocked night two. Tracked Litral night three (he went nowhere).

Add to that: Cass, Wumbo & Geraint have claimed vanilla. Litral hasn't claimed cop or roleblocker. SC tried to track me the night he got blocked.

[Cass]

I think the set-up the way it seems to be makes perfect sense:
- Town has three non-sane cops. Two are useless, one could be useful.
- Town also has a forensic investigator. All the crazy cops walking around at night balance this quite powerful role. Imagine all four investigators had claimed at once, with conflicting results. That would have caused a pretty confused situation and scum could easily have claimed cop as well.
- A tracker. Now this one seems a bit excessive, so I'm not 100% sure I believe it. Willing to give him a chance to confirm himself though.

- Scum has a GF to confuse investigations even more, and a RB for balance.

[Cass]

Sorry for the posting spree; I'd been waiting for quite a while to put my thoughts down I have to agree that StrangerCoug has said and done some weird things.

@Stranger:

Let me tell you guys that I am a tracker and that maxwellhouse did indeed investigate Dark wingstalker Night 1 (the latter of which we all know xD). I tried to track Cass Night 2, but got roleblocked. Litral did not submit a night choice Night 3.

1) Why did you investigate me night 2? Why Litral night 3? Can you paraphrase the results the mod pm-ed you night 2 and 3?

I think the roleblocker is town and blocked me by mistake trying to block the Mafia, but I'm not 100% sure.

2)Why did/do you think the roleblocker is town?

Since Battousai effectively counterclaimed me, Vote: Battousai.

He didn't, you misread, but even so:
3) There are multiple cops in this game. Why couldn't there be multiple trackers?

Have you ever misinterpreted what you thought was a counterclaim against you? That's what I'm guilty of, and I know what that means; therefore, my vote stands. Now kill me.

No, I haven't, but if I had, I'm pretty sure 'kill me' would

not

be my response.
4) I still don't get why you felt obliged to vote yourself after a simple misunderstanding. Nothing disastrous happened, as far as I can see. Care to explain your thought pocess a bit more?

All right, fine! I don't care if I'm royally screwed over

5) Why would you be royally screwed over?
6) Why did you unvote Wumbo again, so soon after you voted him?

I'm not against a no lynch if we have no other information to gain today, but right now we should be trying to find the third and most likely final scum. I'm going to vote: Battousai again for the time being, but no lynch should be a last resort here.

7) Yet you say you think Batt's a liar in that same post. Why would you support a no lynch then?

I am against massclaiming.

8) Why? Seeing as you started the claiming today.

Meaning geraintm is the roleblocker and/or the roleblocker is scum (assuming, of course, it exists).

9) Why would you doubt the existence of a RB? Your own credibility depends on the presence of one...

I was afraid I blew it. That's all I'm going to say.

10) How mysterious. You sure you can't say anything more?

If there are three cops, the two sanity distributions that I see most likely are sane/naïve/paranoid and insane/naïve/paranoid. Two cops, one sane and one insane, isn't exactly likely, but I do find it believable.

11) That sounds as if three cops is more likely than two cops. Yet you think Battousai is lying. Why?

12) How do you feel about lynching Wumbo today?

[Cass]

Right now? Confused, and very curious about what he (thinks) he is doing. I hope to have a clearer opinion after he answers my questions.

[Cass]

Stranger, you're being paranoid. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, all I wanted was clarification on some points. And I got it, on most. I had already said I leaned towards beliving you.

@Stranger, Batt & Wumbo: did you even read my posts? I explained why scum is likely among me, geraint and Wumbo. I think Wumbo is scummier than geraint (and of course, I'm convinced I am innocent ).

Who do you propose we lynch? And why them?

[Cass]

Stranger, how about this: Nhat had a very powerful investigatory role. You're a tracker, also not bad. Add a sane cop to that, and it's just too overpowered for town. Three crazy cops however (which makes more sense than two) balance Nhats role, by making crime scenes crowded and confusing. A tracker in this scenario is as much for finding the scum as for confirming all the cops.

All theory, yes, but it feels plausible to me. The downside is it makes Batt utterly useless. We'll just have to find the last scum the old-fashioned way...

[Cass]

Stranger, how about this: Nhat had a very powerful investigatory role. You're a tracker, also not bad. Add a sane cop to that, and it's just too overpowered for town. Three crazy cops however (which makes more sense than two) balance Nhats role, by making crime scenes crowded and confusing. A tracker in this scenario is as much for finding the scum as for confirming all the cops.

All theory, yes, but it feels plausible to me. The downside is it makes Batt utterly useless. We'll just have to find the last scum the old-fashioned way...

Am I correct in saying you believe Battousai is a cop, but not that a sane cop exists?

I don't believe Battousai 100%. I am pretty sure that Batt isn't a

sane

cop however. If there are three cops, I think none is sane. If there are two cops, Batt is by definition scum.

[Cass]

Why is Litral cleared?

We are assuming there is only one scum left. Last night, this scum killed someone, so they left their house. SC checked Litral last night, he didn't leave his house. Two options:
- SC is honest; Litral is now cleared.
- SC is lying scum; Litral (and everyone else) is now cleared.

what dont you beleive about bat? do you beleive he has got the results he has said he has got? do you just beleive he is sane or something like that?

I'm not sure I understand the question. I believe Batt say... 90%. His results sound credible, but he isn't

confirmed

by any means. So I'm keeping the option open that he is the last scum, but, like Stranger, I'm also willing to give him a chance to confirm himself tonight.
I believe he is either insane, or scum. Would be nice if I was wrong, but I don't see that happening. My opinion. Thus I dont see his results as relevant - except that I think we should kill someone that has not been investigated and have him check the other one (SC or Wumbo, I prefer Wumbo as lynch).

[Cass]

EBWOP: for 'insane', read 'naive'

[Cass]

Quite possible, but not today I think. We shouldn't discuss it until tomorrow, after the investigators have claimed their results.

[Cass]

There is a reason I investigated you. You really seemed to want to lynch Max D2 over DWS.

In the beginning of the day, I did. Remember though, that at the time there wasn't any proof for multiple cops. If there's one dead cop and one claimed cop (and I had no further information), it makes sense not to trust the claimed cop immediately. Claiming a guilty on DWS would have been the easy choice for scum. We just got lucky that he was in fact the GF :p Also, I practically pushed DWS over the edge after I had thought things over for a while.

[Cass]

Also, Battousai, consider this: you are looking at day 2 from your own perspective. That perspective involved knowing

for a fact

that there were multiple cops. I'm a vanilla, how could I have known that? Few games have more than one cop, but scum falseclaiming cop is relatively common. From my perspective of things, the odds are different than they are from your perspective.

If we lynch Wumbo, and you check Stranger, you can at the very least confirm your (lack of) sanity. With some luck, Stranger can confirm himself too. We'll be in a good position then. (Even if I were scum :p )

[Cass]

Cass: Regardless of my role I would have voted DWS over Max. Who should you lynch, a claimed cop or his guility result on D2? The result, if he turned up innocent I would have lynched Max the next day if he was alive. I honestly don't think there is a good reason to lynch a claimed cop when you can confirm his role without taking the chance of mislynching a cop.

Counterclaims are a good reason in many games - just not this one. I made the right decision in the end, so I have no regrets about that day.

[Cass]

Let's see... Unless i missed something: Me and SC are voting Wumbo, Batt is voting me, the rest isn't voting. Six of us means four to lynch, so Wumbo's at L-2.
And yes, I"m a vanilla townie. Wumbo's logic that there are too many vanillas... isn't logic Might be a really desperate attempt to shift our attention off himself?

I'm ok with lynching him now, I feel we have discussed all there is to discuss today.

[Cass]

Look Wumbo, I'm sorry about my 'vendetta' against Chenhsi (I'll try not to be in games with him in the future), and I'm sorry about insulting you in the past. But you have to admit both of you were playing very anti-town. And that rubs

me

the wrong way :p

Cass also seems very keen on attacking people who already have suspicion cast upon them (myself, DWS, max at certain points),

All the players you name were very suspicious, for very obvious reasons.

So, is your vote a kind of omgus vote for my ad hominems to you? Or do you see more reasons to think I'm scum? Because you seem to conclude that I'm probably town - is that right?

[Cass]

I think most people have expressed their opinion, now we just have to decide on a lynch. I stick with Wumbo, there's many reasons for him to be today's lynch. I find Batt's hesitation (and his attack on me) slightly scummy. He could be unsure town, but it would also fit in with him being falseclaiming scum. But as I said, I'd rather lynch Wumbo today, and if he's town, review Batt & everyone else again tomorrow.

[Cass]

We vote him mainly for logic.

- It's prefereable to lynch a townie.
- It's preferable to lynch an unconfirmed.

Me, Geraintm & Wumbo are the three (claimed) townies. (Litral is also townie, but he is pretty much confirmed.) Both you and Stranger have a credible claim. You already checked out me and geraint. If we lynch Wumbo now, you can check SC tonight. You have then checked everyone, and at the very least your sanity is known for sure. SC can check someone and confirm them.
Unless you have strong evidence on someone else, this plan makes the most sense.

[Cass]

@Battousai: please explain why you are so convinced that Wumbo is town. What makes you believe him over geraint, me and SC?

I have to say it is somewhat scummy that Batt seems completely unwilling to leave any room for the (slight though it is) chance that he is a

sane

cop - because that's exactly what scum would do in his position. (I'll explain the logic of that if you really want me to, but it will be helping scum.)

[Cass]

Well, in that case we should lynch SC and you should investigate Wumbo. It makes little sense to want to lynch geraint or me today, unless you can make a strong case against one of us.

So if you are really convinced of this, could you make a case on SC? I thought his claim was credible, can you tell me what makes you doubt it? Do you have any reasons to consider him scum, other than that you think day 1 wasn't bussing?

[Cass]

Going to play devil's advocate for Strangercoug here a bit. I am not

sure

that SC is town, but the case on him does not convince me he's scum either.

- SC claims first. This was a bit panicky, but I can easily see a townie doing it. If true, it was a useful claim, gave the town quite some information. Also, it's highly likely that SC would have had to claim today no matter what. So this doesn't feel too scummy to me.

- He wasn't roleblocked N3. This makes me think the roleblocker can't block and kill in the same night. He took the risk SC wasn't a doc and killed the huge threat, nhat. Logical course of action for the last scum, I'd say. He couldn't afford to keep nhat around.

- Yes, the self-voting and voting/unvoting record is strange. I don't get why SC is so extremely jumpy. This is the one thing that makes me doubt everything else.

- I don't find the FoS on Maxwell too scummy on first sight - it was a confusing situation and I too had a weird feeling about Max' behaviour. (Even voted him at first, heh.) The problem of course is that SC had tracked Max and knew he wasn't lying. So yes, this is a point against him as well...

I still lean town on him. If with serious doubts. Though he made some mistakes, they don't seem like a thought out scum-tactic. And his claim

is

rather thought out if he's really scum.
However, if we lynch SC today and he is town - that lands us in a really bad LyLo situation. One more reason I'd rather we lynch a claimed vanilla today. Beside the fact that Wumbo seems scummier to me, it would also gives us a LyLo with some information...

[Cass]

Yes, I could only think of a defense for half the points, sorry

Perhaps you are right, no lynch might actually get us in a better LyLo situation, considering the lack of consensus we have now. So. The two options I'll consider today are a Wumbo lynch and No lynch. I don't want to lynch anyone else.

[Cass]

Why could you not prove someone's guilt or innocence? Seems to me that in this situation you could. And if Wumbo is honestly vanilla, both reporter and tracker would get a 'did not leave house' result, right?

[Cass]

Yes, looks like 4 votes for a no lynch to me.

And I just saw our mod getting replaced in a different game, so I have a bad feeling about this. A temp mod would be good, I wanna know how this ends!

[Cass]

I just checked; she hasn't posted on this site for two weeks now. Before that, she reported serious computer problems. So I guess her PC died or something. I fear we'll need a replacement mod for this game.

[Cass]

She was a player in the other game.

I did some searching and Adel reviewed this set-up. I'll PM him/her to see if she's willing to help or knows any other solutions. Fingers crossed.

[Cass]

Oh, wonderful. I have retracted my PM to Adel. Good to have you back, Hypatia!

[Cass]

First thoughts:
- assuming SC nor Batt is the last scum: the scum opted to block SC. So they felt more threatened by him than by Batt. Possibly they already knew he is naive. That could mean me or Geraint is scum.
- nothing has proven Batt or SC are telling the truth. Either of them could still be the scum.

In short, we have zero confirmed innocents. Joy.

[Cass]

My reaction? I think lynching me would be a bad thing, obviously. It would put the two surviving townies in a nasty LyLo situation.

I think Battousai is real. I think Stranger and Wumbo are most likely to be the last scum. Wumbo because a) he is scummy, b) on the off chance Batt is sane, by process of elimination.

Stranger: I have been thinking, and contrary to my first reaction, his claim

does

make sense if he is the scum roleblocker.
- Tracker is a common claim for scum.
- Putting the idea in our heads that the roleblocker is town kind of fits with this theory.
- Night one he checked Max - this was an easy claim, as Max' target was known.
- Night two he got blocked - the easiest claim. As in this scenario he is scum and knows who really got blocked, there is no risk to saying this. He probably blocked someone that night who is dead by now. Or he is just a goon and knows there isn't a roleblocker.
- Night three he checked Litral = night three he

blocked

Litral. At first I thought naming litral was risky for him, but if he blocked him, there's zero risk. Unless, of course, there is a town tracker - and that's why he panicked about a possible counterclaim.

- rereading, his posts last day look very scummy.

Fos: StrangerCoug

I don't feel ready to vote yet, I'd rather see his defense and/or have you guys try to shoot my hypotheses down first.

[Cass]

You've got to prove why it'd be a bad idea to lynch you better than that, Cass.

As for your thoughts on me being scum, most of it makes sense to me except what you say was my night 3 action. You say I blocked Litral so I can safely say I checked him, when doing so would actually not be safe as scum roleblocker. Note that both times I got roleblocked (nights 2 and 4), I named my intended target (you and Wumbo respectively). If I blocked Litral night 3 and he ended up being a power role, he could still counter me despite my having done so.

Please explain - because I don't see how he could have. If you block him, you claim the result 'he didn't go anywhere', and that's the truth. So there's no risk in claiming it. The only risk is that a town tracker has tracked you to the nightkill. And that's why you thought a tracker-counterclaim was so very bad.

[Cass]

batt, if we find out there is a roleblocker, what good would that do as you would be the only person left to roleblock and you are as useless as well, something really useless.
we could lycnh you and that way confirm you and wumbo at the same time

How does this work? I don't see how lynching Batt could confirm Wumbo. Lynching Wumbo, on the other hand, would confirm whether Batt is sane.

And why exactly are we sure that Wumbo is town and Batt is naive? Seems to me that Wumbo could still be scum.

[Cass]

Right now, if I had to choose, I'd prefer the SC lynch, Wumbo is a close second. My gut says Batt is town, and I have a null-read on geraintm. Battousai alos prefers to lynch SC, if i understand him correctly.

Wumbo, Geraint, SC, who would you lynch if it was deadline right now?

[Cass]

Well, after thinking things over for a bit, I've decided to just go ahead and

Vote: StrangerCoug

There's plenty of scumtells from him, his claim doesn't quite seem to fit in with the other roles in the game - and it's quite possible there is no roleblocker at all (after all, there's no doc either).

[Cass]

Hm. As far as i can tell, your case on me contains some stuff i already defended against (you can of course find my defense unsatisfactory), some things that aren't really scummy and a disagreement with my logic. I don't have a lot to say about any of that. I'd still lynch SC or Wumbo today - both are scummy, but lynching SC (if he is town, which would surprise me) would give us some information. Leaving him alive will just lead to another 'blocked'. Unless I'm missing something - in that case please inform me.

[Cass]

I am tempted to hammer him, but I think I'll wait and see.

Wait to see what?

[Cass]

I agree with that. I don't like Wumbo's lates post, it makes me lean back towards lynching him. Perhaps he dislikes both the Cass and the SC lynch, because he knows we're both town? Wumbo, is there a lynch that doesn't 'rub you the wrong way'?

I wasn't so surprised about the Litral-kill, though SC or Batt would not have surprised me either. Litral was a confirmed townie, potentially more dangerous than a non-confirmed (and not necessarily sane) power role.

- SC is the scum: he gambled on Batt being naive or checking Wumbo and lied about getting blocked. A bit risky, but might be worth it.
- Batt is the scum: he blocked SC and killed Litral. He convinces us he is naive cop, the only smart thing for him to do at this point. Zero risk.
- I, Geraint or Wumbo is scum: blocked SC, unthreatened by Batt if it's me or geraint (zero risk), gambled if it's Wumbo (note in this case Batt could even be sane!). A bit risky, but might be worth it.

[Cass]

Not that it matters anymore, but I agree.

Vote: No lynch

[Cass]

I was completely unsurprised at being the nightkill there. It cleared Batt even more, but I would have had a hard time choosing between geraint and Wumbo. Good game, geraint. And I can't believe we almost let SC get away with that