Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[sirdanilot]

Hi all, I'll start reading this game.

[sirdanilot]

I'm at page 7 now, and I must say that this game is very hard to read. People make very long posts and as of yet nobody strikes me as really scummy.

As of where I'm now, habitang looks reasonably town. I'm a bit torn on Ectomancer, IIRC he accused someone of taking away his authority...? And then there's Jahudo. For a very long time he didn't have his vote on anybody, which doesn't strike me as very pro-town either. I'd say he'd be the most scummy player so far, but I'm nowhere near convinced on that. Most people seem to be good players, and everyone's very vocal.

[sirdanilot]

I'm at page 14 now. I don't like goatrevolt's passiveness in this game, I have meta on him and he's far less passive in other games. I think I'm going to do a read on him after I'm done reading the entire thread (which is very hard to get through). And I'm aware that he has RL reasons for his absence, but that doesn't clear him in my book.

Habitang is the frustrated newbie town.

Nureins is the new players with a few games under his belt who is still figuring out his own play style. Although I'm in no way certain, I'd guess town. I didn't like the Goebbels thing though, and if he says that one more time I'm going to strangle him through my monitor.

Then Simenon, I get some scummy vibes. I might do a read on him some time.

I'm going to be finished reading the thread tomorrow, so expect some participation then.

[sirdanilot]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

[sirdanilot]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

I get angry when new players try to lecture me on what "town would never" do.

I don't care. Don't do it.

So, I've finally finished my read, and I've done my best to fully read all posts. This seems to be a game of good quality, with not so many clear cut suspects.

Anyway, as for Ectomancer, he does not seem to be scummy enough to keep my vote on him (or rather my predecessor's) so:

unvote

Now, some more on Goatrevolt. Up until about page 14, he was very passive. Then came the case on Jahudo. A subtle, but sudden change of playing style, which I perceive as a scum tell. This case was certainly well-thought out, but the thing is, I question the usefulness of such a PBPA in itself. There are several flaws with it.

1. It rips the posts out of context, at least if you use the method of only showing posts by one user. And even if you don't, you tend to merely glance over the other posts.

2. Tunnel vision. You see the player who you are analyzing in the light of what you are trying to prove. I could go fancy by calling a famous psychiatrist's name who did some research of that effect, although I don't see how that would benefit the town

perhaps nureins would

. Anyway, you pick out the scumtells, and as they are also out of context they get magnified.

Goatrevolt is a skilled player. Firstly, he has the ability to make the PBPA so that it looks (and, to some extent, is) sophisticated, thought out well and not just thrown together. This could be perceived as pro-town. Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence. Scum could pick out some scumtells that a towny did, town could magnify minor scumtells of a towny, or the same with a mafia-aligned player. What I mean to say is that Goat's PBPA (two of 'em, actually) is

not

a town-tell at all. Combined with his change of play, it's a scum tell.

And Goatrevolt also knows how to lurk at times, in the beginning of the game this had real life reasons, but now it really just seems that he only participates when it would be advantageous to him, whereas a towny player would continuously contribute in order to help the town as a whole and to find scum.

I am interested in the Habit bandwagon. I think I am going to analyze it, and look at the people who jumped on it. I am fairly certain that at least one of those people is scum.

Simenon, shushing newer players (especially those who attacked you), showing general arrogance and rudeness does not make yourself less suspicious in my book. Additionally, you have not really provided much analysis to the game, most of your posts were (blunt) replies to other people's posts and you didn't really

promote

discussion, you just discussed yourself and you're very protective about it too.

FoS Simenon

[sirdanilot]

Firstly, TPT. I see him as a newbie, no matter what he says. And yes, maybe he has some mafia experience, but it's not on mafiascum and perhaps games go very differently in other places. I've played games on other sites, and on one site people on Day 1 simply bandwagon the first person someone posts a case about. That example is only there to show how differently games throughout the internet are played, and that experience on another site may very well mean nothing here on MafiaScum.

I do not support his self-vote, and I can only see it in the light of him being a newbie. As for his sarcasm, I don't know, I don't play like that and I wouldn't know the motivation for someone to play like that.

Let me simplify your criticisms on Goat, that I consider important for my next analysis. Please do not doubt to correct me if I interpreted one of them badly, as Im simplifying coz people is tired of long posts

1. Change of playstyle
2. rips posts out of context
3. tunnel vision
4. sophistification
5. lack of evidence in the case

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.
2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.
3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

Also, this is a VERY interesting quote by Goatrevolt.

@Ythill: When I construct a case, I generally go through and just pick out the parts that I find indicative that said player is scum. This is something I just do subconsciously because I guess it's been ingrained in me as habit, but I can see how it could be destructive. I've used this to good extent in nailing scum, but I've also used it as scum to nail townies, so I can understand your point. I dislike pointing out town tells while making a case on a player because I think that player is scum and want them lynched and pointing out town tells seriously detracts from a case. However, I'd be willing to make a PBPA on Jahudo and point out town/scum tells I see. I've only completed 4 games on this site (2 scum, 2 town), but I'm fairly consistent in this approach in all of my games. Mini 601, 604, 626, and Open 70 are my completed games.

4. Sophistication is not a scum tell, it's there to prove that Goatrevolt is a skilled and experienced player, so things perceived as town tells by you are not necessarily just that.
5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

In my opinion, the first 3 points apply basically to every case that could be built. The player writes on a particular person and modifies his playstyle, focus on some particular posts, deriving into tunnel vision at some moment. For point 4, If the player is skilled as Goat seems to be, he is sophisticated and tries to make the case as elaborated as possible.

Modifies his playstyle

: I don't agree with that, at all. I do not think that the fact that you suspect someone enough to post a case on him is a good excuse to change your play style. And I handled number 4.

In my opinion, your view is totally wrong, as Goat's case has been quite interesting. Even if I do not agree with his conclusions, his case is basically scumhunting. This can be observed by the intense debate generated, with serious points, and even leading Jahudo to accept some points, reconsider lot of things about habitang, etc.

If I have to say something, I do not mind that silar (ex tritch ex tpt) elaborates a theory on my pairing with cass, but clearly i see you could be trying to "satisfy" cass and me who were voting you. That would be done by criticizing goat (since cass and me were "defending" jahudo in this case) and fossing simenon, for whom we have suspicions.

No, that's not true, I don't post a case to satisfy people, I post a case because I am suspecting them. And I stated why I fosed simenon.

And you postponed answering about TPT as we demanded for you, maybe hoping to have us relaxed situating yourself in similar positions...

I still want your opinion about TPT (of course, you are not him, I know that...)

No, I didn't postpone it, I didn't even notice the request until I started writing this very post. Anyway, it's above.

Nureins, stop manipulating my posts. I'd like you to reply to my own summary of my post. And what do you think of the Goatrevolt quote?

Good points (in #411) about sirdan's positioning. I'm looking forward to sirdan's response.

huh? That post is Jahudo's case on habitang.

[sirdanilot]

@Goatrevolt: Please jump in and reply to my case, and how nureins handles it.

The fact that you were very active as scum doesn't mean that you can lurk and look town, it's not simple like that.

I've noting that sirdan's response was something like "nuh-uh, look what I said".

What?

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Of course I was simple. I announced that precisely, that I was going to be simple. I can develop my points if you really think I am simple, but the rest of players seem not to like my long post. It is difficult for me to be concise and at the same time describe my ideas. So here I go developing a bit more.

You was too simple. You manipulated my points and turned them into something I don't approve of. You cannot defend a case that way.

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.

I included but very briefly. My point was exactly that any player, when doing a case on someone, typically writes more than did before. Indeed, Goat said at some moment he would like to participate more and I guess describing his suspects and doing a case on the most scummish for him was his way to participate more. I find this very natural. I havent metagamed Goat, so in that aspect I cannot comment, maybe you are right.

People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.

Modifies his playstyle: I don't agree with that, at all. I do not think that the fact that you suspect someone enough to post a case on him is a good excuse to change your play style.

2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.

I find all the play style coherent along the game, due to the comments I did before. Having a play style does not mean necessarily to write in a monotone way all the time, but collaborating in a particular way and of course, depending on the circumstances of the game, the personal aspects or real life, other issues, etc...

Define 'collaborating'.

3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

I do not think Im wrong. Precisely, Goat is conscious of tunnel vision and even announces it. He is not doubting in letting his mind to focus on the scum particular aspects of a player (in this case jahudo), because he thinks he is scum due to the general aspect of the game, so he tries to simplify the information for the rest of players. And since he openly admits the possibility of tunnel vision, other players can discuss his points openly and point him out this and other aspects. This also allows, and Ive seen an open debate, other players occupying a opposite position if they believe jah is town. By the way, I largely did so, and Ive perceived in jah and ythill a cooperative debating attitude, even if they occupy a different position. This allows me to see Goat ok in his jahudo case, though I do not share his opinion (and by passing, ythill has gone down too in my scumeter, maybe both of us were tunnel visioned too in our dispute).

A very different situation would have been if Goat position was closed to comments and completely sure of his position as you maybe try to suggest with your comments.

So basically, if you do something scummy and admit it, it's alright? That's really not a valid argument imo.

Since you say sophistication is not a scum tell, Ill not comment 4.

Not a scumtell, but it means he's experienced so you can be damn sure he knows what he does.

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

He is far away from being the king of lurkers in this game. I have 2 or 3 persons clearly up in lurkers list, and he is not one of them. I guess it is not needed to go on a full description of his activity in the game for seeing that...


With respect to your quote on goat, i guess i already answered above.

How does this clear him in any way? The fact that there are two real lurkers only makes it easier for him to slide under the radar by posting only a little bit more than them. You are only reinforcing my point here.

[sirdanilot]

Ugh... so many posts just within hours of my last one. I am not going to comment on both nureins and goatrevolt, not because I don't want to but because I don't have the time for that and it'll clutter up the topic, so expect a reply later on (probably on goatrevolt).

[sirdanilot]

Possibly some comments about goatrevolt's defense (I fail to see why he needed three long posts for that, but alas, that's a null tell) later on, but nureins first.

- TPT never stopped lurking, Tritch did nothing and I was waiting to have a vis a vis with the person replacing, which is you now...my view from outside was that he was scummy somehow, and now in the vis a vis, I dont like the way you have started.

Why? You didn't back up this opinion.

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Do not get confounded. I simplified the "essence" of your 5 points in order not to quote them completely. Of course I read them very largely and I answered them properly with my views on them, that I consider wrong-based, as Goat participation has been quite useful. Notice how many people is discussing on jahudo and habitang, which does not mean we are tunnel visioned by goat in any sense, but sharing information in a townie way in my opinion.

"Essence"? That's one of those words I don't want to hear you say anyway. ugh.

You was too simple. You manipulated my points and turned them into something I don't approve of. You cannot defend a case that way.

Which manipulations ? I just described the essence of each of your points to give my opinion on them. My critiques on you were based on the possibility (not certainty) of you trying to please Cass and me in your suspects list..

"Essence" again. So basically you watered down my case and summarized it, which turned it into something completely different.
So you find me scummy because of the possibility that I have some greater plan to 'please' you? I think you're being hypocrite here.

[sirdanilot]

Sirdan is seeming a little slippery to me.

You didn't back this up. Define 'slippery' and how I am 'slippery', or don't say random things like this at all. I don't see how you contribute to the town this way, and it's really just annoying because you accuse me of something, but since you didn't back it up I can't defend myself. It looks like you're just posting things so you can say later 'Hey, look, I found sirdanilot slippery in post#!!!'

Anyway, I'm going to start on goatrevolt now. I'm not going to quote all your three posts and give equally long replies, you can imagine why I hope.

If your only point against me is that I've been less active, then I will say I don't think you have a strong case.

Ah, but it isn't my only point! See, you're trying to rip all points out of context. Of course your lowered activity doesn't mean you're scum, but it reinforces the other points.

My change in playstyle was not subtle at all. I didn't gradually sneak my way back in the game, but came back with a case on my top suspect and a list of suspects.

What about 'subtle, but sudden' do you not understand.

I wonder why you use a technique (PBPA) that you think isn't very useful. As for the rest, point taken.

Other way around. I try to prove what I see about the character. I saw actions that to me suggested Jahudo being scum. I went about trying to prove that to the rest of the game, which is the point of case building. You're trying to suggest that I pick some random thing and then try to find someone I can build a case around to fit that random thing. Instead, I find a player who I think is scummy, and then I try to neatly organize my reasons for believing that they are scum so others can agree/disagree.

How is that the other way round, and how do you define 'random thing', I don't think I said that.

This paragraph is entirely from your already predetermined perspective that I'm scum. Here is the gist of your statement: "Goatrevolt's PBPA looks pro-town, but it's just him as scum looking like he's town." Do you see the issue with that? You've failed to suggest why I'm scum and have instead assumed as such and are now trying to rectify that stance with things that seem pro-town with my play.

I didn't even say you're scum. What I meant with that paragraph was to combat 'Goatrevolt contributed to the town with a PBPA, so he's obvtown' statements, because I don't agree with such statements.


And no, I

never assumed that you are scum

. If I did I would've voted you. I am simply suspicious of you. It is incorrect that I am trying to assume you are scum and fit your actions around that.

Scum could pick out some scumtells that a towny did,

town

could magnify minor scumtells of a towny, or the same with a mafia-aligned player. What I mean to say is that Goat's PBPA (two of 'em, actually) is not a town-tell at all.

Emphasized town, in case you missed it/conveniently ignored it.

This ignores the alternative that I'm town trying to push suspicion on a player I find scummy.

I didn't ignore anything.


Overall, your defense doesn't give me a scummy feel, but I do feel you tried to make my attack look worse than it was, and I pointed out those points. You're not cleared in my book, and you're still my top suspect, but only as far as that goes in this game.

[sirdanilot]

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence

What exactly is meant by "solid evidence" here? Do you consider your own reasonings against goat to be "solid evidence"?

Ah, you're right. Point taken. I use that exact same argument against people sometimes...

I'm interested to see the play of habitang's replacement, habitang really looks like a frustrated newbie to me, but maybe his replacement will look different.

[sirdanilot]

@sirdan: Look back at my scum-list, votes, and cases. Rest assured that if I vote for you or push you toward the noose, I will do so with an evidence-based case that gives you something to defend against. However, if I did so for every minor shift in opinion, my posts would become (even more) tiresome to read. In most cases, I'm willing to elaborate if asked to do so.

Reasonably good explanation, but I still see it as a bit all-over-the-place, if you know what I mean.

Cass, I still don't know what you (and nureins) mean by that I avoided commenting about TPT. I don't think anyone asked me before I posted about it, and if they did I probably missed it.

[sirdanilot]

Okay Jah, I've considered your words carefully and I can certainly see you acting like you did from that point of view. I'm still pretty damned suspicious. I sort of feel like I cornered someone who has a silver tongue, but I don't really see so much of the case against you anymore.

I will be watching you closely.

For now, though, I'll

unvote; vote sirdanilot

for the previously stated reasons. Let me know if you want quotes or explanations to go with my assertions.

Huh, I don't get why you're voting for me at all. Make a case against me, if you want your vote to be helpful to the town.

[sirdanilot]

That's okay, I don't mind waiting for the case.

What I do have troubles with, though, is that you simply voted me after you shoved off Jahudo, like I was the next in line, and IIRC you hadn't even expressed a FoS on me. In my opinion, correct behaviour would've been to unvote and not vote me until you had posted the case.

[sirdanilot]

Welcome! Looking forward to it, pacman.

[sirdanilot]

...you simply voted me after you shoved off Jahudo, like I was the next in line, and IIRC you hadn't even expressed a FoS on me.

You

were

next in line (I even said so). I don't like to leave my vote unused unless I have a good reason, and I

very

rarely FoS at all, because they are pointless.

So you had me next in line, however, you did not have any reason to before you posted this post. You cannot vote me without a case, a vote is there to help the town and by hiding your thoughts on why I am scum (by not posting your case) means that either you're not trying to help the town or you shouldn't have voted me.

Also, why are FoSes pointless? Do you not think it helps the town to know who you suspect? Do you prefer to keep that completely hidden to the town? How is this helpful to the town?

Anyway… I finally got some time.

Sirdan’s first scummy moment comes across in #428

How was that post scummy? Do you think that mentioning scummy vibes is scummy, even while I was reading the game? Do you not think this is helpful to the town?

, 434, & 437. The FoS on Sim has two motivating factors: “vibes” (which is really nothing) and telling someone to shut-up. Sim told nuriens to shut-up in response to what was a frustrating post in which nuriens made a ridiculous assertion (only scum get frustrated) and continued to call what Sim said about Pope a “defense” (which was the subject of an earlier argument). Sim’s seemed like a very natural reaction.

Saying it was simply “shut-up” takes it way out of context. Nuriens had said that Sim’s lack of comment on Jah’s case was a scumtell. To which Sim said (and I paraphrase): ask me what you want to know or stop calling it a scumtell.

You think it's natural to tell someone to shut up in a mafia game? Do you think it's pro-town to tell someone to shut up? Please answer with 'yes' or 'no'.

So sirdan has placed a “Finger of Shame,” later transformed into a FoS without further motivation, for basically nothing. It had the tone of someone who wanted to adopt an air of authority.

Without further motivation? You conveniently ignore that I was still reading the game at that time, and in that last post where I FoSed Simenon, I had finished. Is it not natural for me to make up the balance and FoS the player I found suspicious?

Next came the “case” on Goat. Which boiled down to a (flawed) case against PbPAs, lurking, and changing gears (even though the gear change came between early- and mid-day, when the whole game is naturally shifting in intensity), as well as vague meta. He adds in the part about Goat’s experience level, like it has anything to do with his alignment, including this gem:

Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

…which is funny, because the

only

thing I found suspicious about Goat’s play was that he

didn’t include any “pro-town bits”

, which I asked him about, and he replied to. No idea where sirdan got this idea but it’s completely off base.

Anyway… much of this could be seen as bad, rather than scummy, play. Then comes nuriens simplification which I found decently accurate. It did rip out some of the rhetoric (example: it called tunnel-vision and out-of-context scumtells rather than alluding to them as such by calling the PbPA process scummy from an experienced player), but was also pretty fair. Sirdan’s reaction to it is where I started to see the warning signs.

Why was that 'pretty fair'? Was it fair for him to manipulate my words? Do you only think that because you suspect me, because I don't see that as a valid point at all.

Basically, sirdan reiterated, solidifying the claim that Goat is so experienced we can’t believe any town read on him. So experienced, in fact, that meaningful scumhunting techniques are mere scumtells from him. He answers a couple of nuriens’ accusations with no-I-didn’t (which isn’t scummy, but isn’t a proper defense either) and then, unexpectedly, accuses nuriens of “manipulating [his] posts.”

What do you mean, ''no I didn't' isn't a defense'? I actually didn't say some of those things. How do you expect me to defend myself against something I didn't do?

He also slips around the spot where I called him on his weak defenses by pretending not to understand. He uses this same technique when nuriens improperly uses the word “collaborating,” thereby ignoring the rest of the point.

That's just WIFOM. I don't 'slip around' things, if I don't understand something it means you have to reword it, and not ignore it and use it in an argument against me later on. That is not protown, and you know what, I even think that's a scummy technique.

This slippery argument style continues, allowing him to ignore some very good points that nuriens made (why is Goat’s lurking notable while others’ worse lurking is not, open tunnel-vision is not anti-town). And, in the next post, dodges nuriens defense of simplification by answering that whole point with annoyance at the word “essence.”

See above.

Concerning “random thing” and whether or not sirdan assumed that Goat was scum (which I saw solid evidence of), sirdan’s counterpoint amounts to

I never said that

which is him using the outs left by his slippery argument style. For example, one who posts a “case,” argues against simplification of that case, resimplifies it himself, and then adds to it can be fairly said to have demonstrated an opinion. However, sirdan believes that because he never actually said the words “Goat is scum”, he can escape that opinion when it suits him. Scumtells 101.

I didn't say Goatrevolt was scum, I did suspect him though. I made sure not to base my case off the assumption he's scum, because I'd basically be fooling myself, and it would not be helpful to the town. I build a case on him to see how he would react, to get some clarifications, and because I suspected him.


Note that I left some bits out, or that I did not comment on some, so don't go like 'OMG HE AVOIDED THAT', just properly ask me to comment on them. I seriously think that it is not very pro-town to keep that for later use, and it's the only point in your attack on me that I actually found scummy. The rest of your attack seems null. (as in null-tell)

[sirdanilot]

You think it's natural to tell someone to shut up in a mafia game? Do you think it's pro-town to tell someone to shut up? Please answer with 'yes' or 'no'.

Do you think it's protown to tell someone to answer with only a "yes" or "no"?

This is a serious question.

In some cases, yes it is, it may be pro-town to hear a clear answer from someone rather than them trying to word it so that they don't really say either yes or no. And obviously I don't mean that they may not add an explanation. I meant an answer along the lines of 'Yes, because xxx' if you get what I mean.

And don't go "but it's the same with telling people to shut up", as the thing that gives us the most information is talking (and voting of course). Also, it's against the spirit of the game.

[sirdanilot]

So you had me next in line, however, you did not have any reason to before you posted this post.

Bullshit. I had already posted reasons in #493, and cited them with my vote. Stop lying, scum.

Let's quote that post then. Also, how does the 'stop lying scum' contribute to your case at all? How is that helpful? Are you perhaps assuming that I'm scum and basing your further arguments on that assumption?

"Slippery", in my vernacular, refers generally to arguing in a way that is indecisive or indirect. It is a vague term and for that I apologize.

An example of the former sense (context used in #458): Player X is scummy because he did these things but I've seen him do them as town in other games, so either he's town here or he is skilled scum playing the meta game. Some example of the latter sense (context used in #481): arguing around an accusation by pretending ignorance, making a weak case against someone and then calling him defensive for defending himself, making an argument that ignores previously raised counter-points, etc.

In the case of sirdan, stating that he seems "a little slippery" refers to his general argument style. A few examples include: the way he discussed the simplification issue with nuriens, the shifting appeal to Goat's experience, and his failure to understand a very simple and obvious point I made about his defense. I don't know if these issues are a factor of his playstyle or alignment, but I figured I'd mention the impression so as to keep my opinion transparent.

@sirdan: Look back at my scum-list, votes, and cases. Rest assured that if I vote for you or push you toward the noose, I will do so with an evidence-based case that gives you something to defend against. However, if I did so for every minor shift in opinion, my posts would become (even more) tiresome to read. In most cases, I'm willing to elaborate if asked to do so.

Ah well, you do have a minor point here, but this does not express so much suspicion that I'd be the second most scummy in your book. Hence why FoSes are useful to the town.

Also, why are FoSes pointless? Do you not think it helps the town to know who you suspect? Do you prefer to keep that completely hidden to the town? How is this helpful to the town?

These questions are asinine. It's been clear all along whom I suspect. I don't need to use bolded pop-culture to demonstrate that, and you can meta me to see that I am being honest.

I'm not going to meta you, and, although I'm rather fluent at english, I don't know what the word 'asinine' means so I'm just going to ignore that comment. Fact remains, FoSes make it easier for the town to see where your suspicions lie. Why do you think it's pro-town to force other players to dig through your posts to see that, rather than that they just need to skim and look for a nice, bolded FoS? For example post 493, although it expressed some suspicion, I was still surprised when you voted me. A FoS would have made that a lot clearer.

(1) How was that post scummy? (2) Do you think that mentioning scummy vibes is scummy, even while I was reading the game? (3) Do you not think this is helpful to the town?

(1) It was scummy in context with your other play because the level of explicit suspicion does not match your reasons, relative with your other attacks.

So first you conclude that I'm scum, and then you decide that this is a scumtell too?

Anyway, I think I mentioned several times that I found this game hard to read, since everyone was very active and made long posts, and a lot of discussions were going on at the same time, so I had to go off really minor suspicion. Nobody really fired off my scumdar, hence why I have not voted yet.

(2) No, I do not. Nor did I claim that it was, except in conjunction with other aspects of your play.

"It isn't scummy but you're scum and I see how scum could do that"

(3) No, it is not, except that, like any other baseless assertion, it marks your opinion (pretended or otherwise). But whether or not it was helpful to the town was not why I found it scummy.

What do you mean. So something that isn't helpful to the town is not scummy? I don't follow your reasoning here.

(1) You think it's natural to tell someone to shut up in a mafia game? (2) Do you think it's pro-town to tell someone to shut up?

(1) Yes, in this instance. (2) Yes, in certain circumstances, including this one.

Then I simply disagree with you. In my opinion, it is never good to tell someone to shut up in a mafia game.

Nice job of playing dumb to overlook what was actually wrong with your attack here.

You didn't back this up, and you did not mention what this refers to, so I assume this can be ignored.

(1) Without further motivation? You conveniently ignore that I was still reading the game at that time, and in that last post where I FoSed Simenon, I had finished. (2) Is it not natural for me to make up the balance and FoS the player I found suspicious?

(1) I didn't conveniently ignore anything. You didn't state any new reasons when you upgraded to a FoS.

I was done reading the game, and I summarized why I found Sim worthy of a FoS. Since there was a lot to tell about Goatrevolt, the biggest part of my post was about him.

(2) Sure it's natural. Is it natural to place a two-part FoS in response to "vibes" and a null-tell and then lead an inquisition against a different player without placing a FoS or vote? No, it isn't.

'Two-part FoS'? A finger of shame is not a FoS, even though the abbreviation is the same. And I don't like the word 'inquisition', I simply told what player stood out the most to me and posted something about that. How is that not natural. Why was I forced to vote him?

Why was that 'pretty fair'? Was it fair for him to manipulate my words?

(1) I explained why. Stop pretending you can't read.

You didn't really explain why, you just generally said that you thought he did it well and that he was fair. You didn't say

why

.

(2) He didn't manipulate anything. He simplified by removing your own misleading rhetoric. And said he was doing so. And invited you to correct him. You are the manipulator here.

I disagree. His summary was incorrect, and I don't think he should have posted a summary of my case, and I even less think that he should have based an argument on it. And how am I the manipulator here?

(1) What do you mean, ''no I didn't' isn't a defense'? (2) I actually didn't say some of those things. (3) How do you expect me to defend myself against something I didn't do?

(1) Just what I said. See below.

(2) The accusations had to do with motive, not statements. See below.

(3) A motive defense should at least attempt to explain why your stated motive was more likely than your accuser's suggested motive. See below.

"No, that's not true, I don't post a case to satisfy people, I post a case because I am suspecting them. And I stated why I fosed simenon." Here you might have elaborated on your crap reasons for suspecting Sim. You might have pointed to previously stated susppicions that didn't fit with nuriens' theory (except that there weren't any), etc. You didn't.

"No, I didn't postpone it, I didn't even notice the request until I started writing this very post. Anyway, it's above." Here you might have explained what caused you to miss the request or given a more elaborate explanation about why you felt it unimportant to talk about your predecessor. But you didn't.

Why should I have elaborated on my FoS on Sim? I said everything that there was to it. And point taken about the 'motive defense' part. And I'm not sure what you mean with nureins' theory.
What caused me to miss the request? What do you mean? I missed it. Do I have to say 'oh, a pigeon flew into my eye so I missed your request'? I simply missed it. Why do you try to make simple things more complicated than they are? How is this helpful?

To reiterate: I don't think your statements here are scumtells but I also don't think that they do anything at all to invalidate nuriens' accusations.

That's just WIFOM.

You obviously don't know what WIFOM means (or are pretending the same).

Yes I do know what WIFOM means, and in this case I mean that you cannot know whether I ignored something or that I missed it.

I don't 'slip around' things, if I don't understand something it means you have to reword it, and not ignore it and use it in an argument against me later on. That is not protown, and you know what, I even think that's a scummy technique.

Here’s another example of the no-I-didn’t defense. Here it is used to claim that you don’t slip around things, two thirds of the way down a post in which you do nothing but slip around things.

Your only defense up to this point has been to say that one of my attacks is scummy.

How am I supposed to defend against that? The only thing you say is that I did something that I didn't do. The point of your case against me should be to help the town. I feel that if you attack me in such a way that I cannot defend myself, it doesn't help the town, and it just gives the scum an easy lynch.
You ignore the main part of my defense here. When I say I don't understand something, you can do two things. Either, you don't comment on it until you start building your case against me, or you explain what you mean by rewording it so I can comment on it. Which of the two is the most helpful to the town?

The first thing that you can do, is what you did, and I find it scummy. So claiming that my defense is that your attack is scummy is overly simplified and untrue. It's manipulative to say that.

I made sure not to base my case off the assumption he's scum...

Yet another example of the no-I-didn’t defense. Explain how your accusations against Goat (the points you are supposedly not avoiding) lead you from a neutral read on him to suspicion. Explain how claiming that

Goat’s experience level means he cannot be read as town for dropping towntells

does not assume that he is scum. Explain how the claim that

Goat is suspicious because he did something that he might have done as scum

does not assume that he is scum.

Did I say those two sentences? I don't recall in what post I said them.
Anyway, the first sentence, whether I said it or not, does not assume he is scum. It states just that, that we cannot assume he is town. These two things are totally different. Why do you make them appear as if they're the same?
I actually don't think I said the second sentence, but whatever. If I said it, then either you pulled it out of context, or I agree that that sentence is wrong. Please tell me in what posts I mentioned these sentences, I'm curious.

Note that I left some bits out, or that I did not comment on some, so don't go like 'OMG HE AVOIDED THAT', just properly ask me to comment on them.

Oh, I’ve noted it. And I’m sure others have too. You skipped over the meat of the entire case. You posted a bunch of questions designed to shed doubt on the case, and once claimed that an attack was scummy, but otherwise hardly defended yourself at all.

I see no need to chase you down on these points. You have proven my accusation about slippery arguing and have made me feel very good about my vote on you.

If you choose to go back and address the meat of the argument, I’ll certainly listen. Until then, I intend to nitpick and badger you and, eventually, see you hang because you are scum.

I don't like this part. Do you not think it's pro-town to invite me to comment on those bits (which I left out as at first sight they didn't seem so important and I was a bit short on time)? Anyway, I'll probably search for the parts I skipped and try to formulate a response.

Nitpick and badger me? And how can you be so damn sure that I'm scum? How am I supposed to defend myself against this? Again, I don't see why they help your case.

Sirdan-scum and chips, anyone?

Again, this doesn't help your case at all and it is not contributory to the town. Stop saying things like this, they're not funny and they are not helpful.

[sirdanilot]

Hahahaha. Whatever, scum.

That is awful, Ythill. Even if you are town, that is really anti-town as you make your arguments weaker with that attitude...

There's nothing anti-town about badgering someone. Remind me after the game and I'll even tell you what's protown about it.

I've shown my case and I've already answered a whole slew of slippery questions about it. I'm not going to fill the thread with meaningless debate over details that sirdan is going to keep sidestepping.

You've first hand experience with my badgering, but it came out alright in the end, didn't it?

Holy shit Ythill. I just pointed out that not giving me a chance to defend myself is very scummy. And now you are refusing to continue the debate, thereby not giving me any chance to defend? Also, the fact that you were town and something worked in another game doesn't mean you can do it now, that's just such a wrong attitude. Nureins probably knows what game you're referring to, and you're trying to manipulate him with something like 'I was town then, and it worked, so just trust me now mkay?'

This is just such a big scum tell post that I don't really know what to say, other than

vote Ythill

And note that I didn't really find you suspicious (except for one aspect of your attack) before this post. I just saw your attack as a fellow towny who'd gone wrong. That's totally different now.

I'll address other points in this thread later on.

Jahudo, Citizen Karne, what do you guys think of the post I quoted? Is it pro-town? Why? Do you agree that not giving someone a chance to defend is a pro-town tactic? What do you think about my vote on Ythill (which is only due to that post, and another scumtell in his attack on me, but the latter is little compared to the former)?

[sirdanilot]

And note that I didn't really find you suspicious (except for one aspect of your attack) before this post. I just saw your attack as a fellow towny who'd gone wrong. That's totally different now.

I'll address other points in this thread later on.

After 20 pages this is the major scumtell you have found in all the game? as much as to make you vote him?

and yes, im waiting for your answer...

No, I am suspecting Goatrevolt and Simenon as well. However, I did think that that post warranted a vote, more than anything those two people have done. Goatrevolt defended himself well (but not to the point that I cleared him), and I just think Ythill is more suspicious than Simenon.

[sirdanilot]

vote Ythill

Is there anyone that didn't see this coming?

Probably not, since I am really beginning to dislike your attack now, while it started off more than decent.

Again, I don't see how quoting me as 'sirdan-scum' is witty or helpful at all, so stop doing it.

And now you are refusing to continue the debate, thereby not giving me any chance to defend?

I've given you every chance to defend yourself, scum. I'm continuing to give you that chance. What I'm not doing is participating in your side-stepping game. I made my case, and I answered the questions you had about it. I've already demonstrated a propensity to consider and accept valid defenses. You haven't made any.

Define my 'side stepping game'. I am defending myself against your case, and even if you do think that my defense isn't good, why don't you reply to it? How is it anti-town to do that?

That's your choice. Not mine.

Also, the fact that you were town and something worked in another game doesn't mean you can do it now, that's just such a wrong attitude. Nureins probably knows what game you're referring to, and you're trying to manipulate him with something like 'I was town then, and it worked, so just trust me now mkay?'

If you were reading this game (townie) rather than skimming it (scummy), you'd know that I was talking about my history with nuriens in

this game

, wouldn't you?

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I don't recall you badgering anyone like you are doing to me, or I would've surely noted it.

Jahudo, Citizen Karne, what do you guys think...

When the heat goes up, the gambits begin. Do you already feel so doomed that you need to set up red herrings for after your death?

I am simply asking them what's their opinion on this, because so far only nureins seems to be replying to what probably is the biggest case going on like now. See, now you're doing exactly the same that you accused me of. You're assuming that I'm scum and you are trying to prove that by making up all these weird kinds of gambits. Reminds me of something with pot, kettle, black...

[sirdanilot]

Sorry for this long post, but I don't have the time to cut out unimportant parts of the quotes, so you'll just have to bear with me.

(about my simplification in which sirdan says i manipulated his words and ythill says it was just a simplification).

You didn't really explain why, you just generally said that you thought he did it well and that he was fair. You didn't say

why

.

Curiously, you accusing ythill of something you are doing. You didnt say either why I "manipulated" your criticisms to goat. This is for me the crucial aspect of all that (because i think you just prefered to say I manipulated your words to avoid my point that your attack on Goat was very poor and suggest some reason for this fake). Also is the one concerning me, and I leave the rest to Ythill not to insist too much on that.

Please, tell me where I committed a big crime in simplifying your accusations to Goat.

Up until about page 14, he was very passive. Then came the case on Jahudo. A subtle, but sudden change of playing style, which I perceive as a scum tell. This case was certainly well-thought out, but the thing is, I question the usefulness of such a PBPA in itself. There are several flaws with it.

I called that "change of style".

Why is that a manipulation of your argument?

It is not, however I had something to add to it. First passive play style, then change of play style.

did you think or not that goatrevolt changed his style?

Yes I do.

Was this one of the arguments to find goat scummy?

Yes.

it rips the posts out of context, at least if you use the method of only showing posts by one user. And even if you don't, you tend to merely glance over the other posts.

So I just quoted this argument as "rips posts out of context"
is not that what you mean ? Why am i manipulating your argument ?
did you think goatrevolt ripped posts out of context and was this one of your arguments or not?

He used a method that tends to rip posts out of contests, it's not the same as 'goatrevolt rips posts out of context'. It's part of my case on him.

Tunnel vision. You see the player who you are analyzing in the light of what you are trying to prove. I could go fancy by calling a famous psychiatrist's name who did some research of that effect, although I don't see how that would benefit the town perhaps nureins would. Anyway, you pick out the scumtells, and as they are also out of context they get magnified.

I called that "tunnel vision". You called it like that, so I guess my simplification is not very criminal, is it ?
do you think goat committed tunnel vision or not?

The method he used causes tunnel vision, and he knows that, so yes.

Goatrevolt is a skilled player. Firstly, he has the ability to make the PBPA so that it looks (and, to some extent, is) sophisticated, thought out well and not just thrown together. This could be perceived as pro-town. Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

I called this Sophistication. Probably this was the more difficult to comprise in a couple of words, but I guess you more or less wanted to say something about the sophistication in goat's style of posting, and the consequences of all that...

But I never said that this was a scumtell, and you made it appear as such.

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence. Scum could pick out some scumtells that a towny did, town could magnify minor scumtells of a towny, or the same with a mafia-aligned player. What I mean to say is that Goat's PBPA (two of 'em, actually) is not a town-tell at all. Combined with his change of play, it's a scum tell.

I quoted all that as "lack of evidence in the case". isnt that what u wanted to say ?

After quoting the 5 paragraphs by their "titles" i gave my opinion on the weakness of your case (the first 3 points are just common things in an elaborated case and especially they were even announced by some posts of goat and he never tried to do that in a hidden way or with a scum attitude. his sophistication is nothing scummy and in my view his case was solid, even if I dont find it convincing) and wondered if you just wanted to please Cass and me with that attack on Goat (or defense on jahudo) and your other attack to simenon...

Maybe you prefered me to copy all your 5 paragraphs to sum up your reasons to vote goat, dunno why. Here you have them now and my question remains.

Where did I manipulate your reasons to accuse goat, where did i manipulate your case? I could understand you debate my opinion on Goat and your case, but i really dont see how i manipulated your case. Clearly I think you tried to deviate attention.

I didn't try to deviate attention. Now that I replied to this topic, I do agree that your manipulation is not really scummy, but my opinion remains that you shouldn't have based your post entirely on that, as there are some discrepancies. I listed those.

I disagree. His summary was incorrect, and I don't think he should have posted a summary of my case, and I even less think that he should have based an argument on it. And how am I the manipulator here?

Again, even if i repeat myself, Where was my summary incorrect ?
I prefered to do a concise summary of your case before saying why i thought it was weak and suggesting your pleasing post. I think this helps the reading...
Why cant i base an argument on your cases? I thought your case was a fake and i exposed it...

You did not base an argument on my case, you based your argument of a summary of my case. I now pointed out that in some ways, this summary was flawed and it cannot serve as a basis for an argument.

[sirdanilot]

Next came the “case” on Goat. Which boiled down to a (flawed) case against PbPAs, lurking, and changing gears (even though the gear change came between early- and mid-day, when the whole game is naturally shifting in intensity), as well as vague meta. He adds in the part about Goat’s experience level, like it has anything to do with his alignment, including this gem:

Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

…which is funny, because the

only

thing I found suspicious about Goat’s play was that he

didn’t include any “pro-town bits”

, which I asked him about, and he replied to. No idea where sirdan got this idea but it’s completely off base.

Hmm, I may have been influenced by his later case on Andycyca (which did include some of those), not sure, I should check. Still, I don't see how this is a scumtell on my part.

This even though nuriens explicitly said he was simplifying for clarity, politely invited corrections, is more likely than most (due to language barrier) to accidentally misinterpret, and (most importantly) did a pretty good job of representing the bullet-points of the case.

Well, I pointed out flaws in that already.

This is followed by Goat posting a very good defense to the meta accusation which was IMO the only (barely) valid point of sirdan’s case. Now, I’d expect a townie to rethink himself when faced with such a defense but sirdan just blows it off, claiming that it is still

possible

that Goat is scum and then going on to argue things like: Goat is scum because he did something that Goat might have done if he was scum, and Goat is scum because he’s good enough that there’s no way we can tell if he’s scum or not.

Prove this claim. Goat's meta defense was good, but I don't like how you are accusing me of something here that you actually did yourself (look at my first post of this page). Anyway, I just mean that it was a good defense, but it just doesn't clear him.

This slippery argument style continues, allowing him to ignore some very good points that nuriens made (why is Goat’s lurking notable while others’ worse lurking is not, open tunnel-vision is not anti-town). And, in the next post, dodges nuriens defense of simplification by answering that whole point with annoyance at the word “essence.”

Why goat's lurking was notable? You're just reversing things here. Why is Goat's lurking any less worse when there are big lurkers around? The fact that there are lurkers in this game only reinforces my point that goat knows he can hide under the radar. I didn't even dodge this. Please quote the part where I dodged this. I even recall saying this exact same thing a while ago.
And with the 'essence' thing, with 'the essence of SirD's post' he is basically doing the same as he did first, namely using his own flawed summary to reply to my case, which is why I said that.

Ythill, I want you to reply to all my recent posts that were directed at you. I don't see how it would be pro-town not to do so. I defended myself, and I don't care if you say 'you didn't defend yourself properly so I'm not going to reply' without backing it up. The only way to back it up is by replying to my defense!

My vote stays on you as long as you keep this scummy attitude (SirD is scum so I'm not listening to his flawed defense hahaha sirdaniscum and chips olololol)

[sirdanilot]

Big post coming up, sorry!

Second post on my "manipulation"

So basically, there are minor discrepancies in point 4 (sophistication) and from that you deduce i manipulated your post ??
i just used couple of words to define your arguments not to copy all of it...minor discrepancies are the result of a simplification. I clearly gave advice of that.

Well, in my opinion those were not just minor discrepancies.

And obviously, i didnt answer you according to my summary. I read very carefully your whole post and answered according to your post, not to my summary. The summary was for the rest of people to follow the debate. I already had said so in a previous post, but you seem not to read them a lot...

Given the previous comment on ythill, it seems you havent read my posts all along the game...

So basically, you just summarized that to mislead the people reading your case, while you knew yourself pretty damn well what my case was about?

Again, I don't see how quoting me as 'sirdan-scum' is witty or helpful at all, so stop doing it.

Was that a shut up?

No. You just posted a horrible, unfunny and completely useless reply. Way to throw your own case (which was good, as in not really scummy) by turning around and acting like a scummy prick.

Define my 'side stepping game'.

Already have. More than once.

I am defending myself against your case, and even if you do think that my defense isn't good, why don't you reply to it?

If your defense was valid, I wouldn't need to reply to it. Except to say something like, "well, that makes sense."

Now this is where you're wrong. That'd be an easy way out, to just say 'oh, that's good, cleared!'. You'd have to explain

why

it would be good.

I posted a case. You did nothing but ask a bunch of inane questions and pretend to not understand. I answered all of your points. After which you asked more inane questions and continued to pretend to not understand. At least the second time you argued some points, but they were points that had nothing to do with my case. For example, you answered an obvious paraphrase (which was neither in block quotes nor quotation marks) by claiming that you'd never said those things. No shit, Sherlock.

I have no idea what 'inane' means. Anyway, those 'inane' questions were my defense, and I just don't care whether you like it or not, you have to reply to my defense, or give up your case.
What is the obvious paraphrase you're referring to, the one with the two italicized sentences? If that was paraphrased, that part of your case is completely void.

It doesn't take a psycic to know where this is going.

How is it anti-town to do that?

How is it anti-town to allow scum to control the argument, make it pointless, and fill up the thread with garbage? Are you serious?

No, how is it anti-town to allow someone who is accused to defend themselves?

You're assuming that I'm scum...

No. First I suspected that you were scum. Then I read your reactions and became more convinced that you are scum. Now I am treating you as if you are scum, and your reactions have embroiled you even further.

You went wrong when you started treating me like I'm confirmed scum. You basically threw your very own case with that attitude.

You're going to hang, sirdan. You've failed your buddies. For them, shouldn't you at least try to defend yourself? I'll make it easier for you...

Why would a townie upgrade a Finger of Shame to a Finger of Suspicion without any new evidence?

I did not 'upgrade' that. I decided to FoS the player I found suspicious at the end of my read. Also, you say that FoSes are pointless, yet you use them as a handy tool to accuse me of something?

Why would a townie place a Finger of Suspicion on someone who hasn't dropped scumtells while giving no such notation about somone on whom he'd presented and defended a complicated case?

Also, you say that FoSes are pointless, yet you use them as a handy tool to accuse me of something?

And, quantity=/= quality. I saw Simenon's general attitude, even though that was one of his few scumtells, as worthy of a FoS, and even though I listed a lot about Goatrevolt I wanted to work out the case using his defense before coming to my conclusion. Quite honestly, I'm pretty satisfied with goat now.

What would a townie be trying to accomplish by raising multiple case points that assume the target of that case is scum? Don't try to say you didn't. We all know that you did.

Yes I am going to say I didn't do it, because I didn't. And you actually did do this yourself (sirdan-scum and chips anyone? you're going to hang, scum etc.). Your most powerful case on how I did this used

paraphrases

. Come on, that already assumes that I did it. You have to bring up something better than that. Use

quotes

, perhaps? Or even easier, just give up the point to save us time.

Why would a townie argue semantics and minor points, thereby ignoring major points made against him?

I explained this point in an earlier post, and you did not reply to it. Because I properly defended myself when you brought up this accusation using a concrete case, you decided to bring it up abstractly?

Why would a townie vehemently argue against another townie for summarizing by removing rhetoric from his case?

Because I feel he misinterpreted my case, and showed it incorrectly to the rest of the town, and that it could perhaps even be used by scum as 'evidence'.
Oh wait, that already happened.


So, is this your entire case against me?

@Jahudo

Point taken that he used this badgering stuff in the past. I now remember reading that, but it honestly wasn't nearly as bad as what he's doing now.

I'm not sure if badgering isn’t both a good and a bad thing, if the defense reacts frustrated and indirect to the original argument, for instance, or if the attack has no basis for an argument when the defense is ready to answer it, could be unhelpful reads for town, especially if they read it without fully understanding the argument.

But like I said, do you think he already has confirmation bias and you think he's stopped debating you? Are you saying we won't be able to find each instance that he lays out dependable points on you?

Since he posted these posts, yes I do think he stopped debating me with an open mind. He is now completely disregarding the possibility that I am town. Look:

Hahahaha. Whatever, scum.

That was his only reply to my defense. Do you think this is pro-town?

[sirdanilot]

Well, in my opinion those were not just minor discrepancies.

Establishing that personal opinion is a valid argument in mafia? Okay. In my opinion you are scum.

I backed up my opinion.

...acting like a scummy prick.

So the ad hominem begins. This was as predictable as your OMGUS vote. IME, there's a way that slippery scum act when they are pushed against the ropes, and this is the next step.

I am not trying to attack you as a person, but seriously your current play style is extremely annoying to me so sorry about that comment.

How is that scummy, actually. Why can't you explain that by a townie who got a tad frustrated there and used a different word choice. But no, because you are so certain that I am scum that explanation is completely impossible...

I have no idea what 'inane' means.

You're sitting at a computer. Look it up.

in·ane Audio Help /ɪˈneɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-neyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. lacking sense, significance, or ideas; silly: inane questions.
2. empty; void.
Ah, that's a handy word to use. There's no such word in Dutch (my mother language) but it sure adds to the vocabulary.

What is the obvious paraphrase you're referring to, the one with the two italicized sentences?

Yes.

If that was paraphrased, that part of your case is completely void.

Nice try. Paraphrasing is a completely valid form of argument. It only becomes invalid if you can show, definitively, how the paraphrase misread or misinterpreted your actions. Which you haven't.

So the first one to make an, uhm, 'inane' comment wins the tie?

Do you get what I'm getting at here.

Just because I'm in a pleasant mood, and I want people to see how scummy you've been, I'm going to go ahead and re-explain this part to you. Don't get used to it. Pretending you have comprehension problems will not save you.

It is pro-town to back this up. Do you say that you are only going to be pro-town as an exception to the rule?

1. What I said:

Goat’s experience level means he cannot be read as town for dropping towntells

, which was in reference to two statements from my initial case (#517): “Basically, sirdan reiterated, solidifying the claim that Goat is so experienced we can’t believe any town read on him,” and, “Now, I’d expect a townie to rethink himself when faced with such a defense but sirdan just blows it off, claiming that it is still possible that Goat is scum and then going on to argue things like... Goat is scum because he’s good enough that there’s no way we can tell if he’s scum or not.”

My first statement referenced both #437 (“Goatrevolt is a skilled player. Firstly, he has the ability to make the PBPA so that it looks (and, to some extent, is) sophisticated, thought out well and not just thrown together.”) and #444 (“Sophistication is not a scum tell, it's there to prove that Goatrevolt is a skilled and experienced player, so things perceived as town tells by you are not necessarily just that.”).

Okay, and I defended myself against that because I acknowledged that I said something among the line of that paraphrase.

2. What I said:

Goat is suspicious because he did something that he might have done as scum…

, which was in reference to the following statement from my initial case (#517): “Goat is scum because he did something that Goat might have done if he was scum.”

This statement was, of course, inspired by your #463 (“People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.”).

Alright then. See, this is pro-town behavior. You now win that particular argument in a pro-town way, by backing it up with something I said. Point taken.
Can you show any other places where I said things like that?

The ironic part is that, in rereading to find those quotes, I found more evidence against you. I’ll post it below.

No, how is it anti-town to allow someone who is accused to defend themselves?

I'm only going to say this one more time. I'm giving you the chance to defend yourself. I am not giving you the chance to smokescreen with garbage.

See, you really don't seem to understand me here. What you perceive as 'smokescreening with garbage' is my defense, whether you like it or not.

And, quantity=/= quality.

I addressed the quality issue at length. See, this is how slippery arguing works. Sirdan-scum posts explicit suspicions that do not match his stated evidence (serious scumtell); Ythill points this out, addressing the quality and quantity of sirdan-scum's evidence; sirdan-scum blathers around the accusation, pretending not to understand it; Ythill simplifies the accusation, addressing only quantity; sirdan-scum then argues that it was the quality of the evidence, not the quantity, which motivated him.

Anybody with a sixth grade reading level can see what you're doing if they take the time to go back and read our argument.

Why don't you reply to the actual point, and quote my entire bit there.

And, quantity=/= quality. I saw Simenon's general attitude, even though that was one of his few scumtells, as worthy of a FoS, and even though I listed a lot about Goatrevolt I wanted to work out the case using his defense before coming to my conclusion. Quite honestly, I'm pretty satisfied with goat now.

Reply.

Yes I am going to say I didn't do it, because I didn't.

You are lying. See above.

Okay then. I did it

once

, and I was trying to avoid it. I take your point. You did it yourself more than once.

And you actually did do this yourself (sirdan-scum and chips anyone? you're going to hang, scum etc.).

What I did: suspect you, post evidence that has not been refuted, read your reactions to that evidence as scummy, come to the conclusion that you are scum, treat you as if you are scum.

No, what you did is: suspect me, vote me without having backed it up yet, post a more than decent attack, throw it by saying 'hahaha whatever scum' and not giving me the chance to defend'

You cannot know for sure that I am scum. It's impossible. Therefore, you should treat me like someone you suspect. If you start treating me like I'm scum, you start reading into the past, and, with your 'knowledge' that I am scum, you keep seeing more and more scum tells.

What you did: seem like you suspect Goat; post unreliable evidence that was refuted by several players; make arguments that assume Goat's alignment, using them to back up your flawed case; claim that you never thought Goat was scum because you never said it; drop the subject.

I made

one

argument where I accidentally assumed his alignment, and I was wrong when I did it. And I didn't really drop the subject, but obviously this discussion with you takes up way more time.

I explained this point in an earlier post, and you did not reply to it. Because I properly defended myself when you brought up this accusation using a concrete case, you decided to bring it up abstractly?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, because I may have missed a valid point in your mountains of bullshit. Quote your response or point me to it and I'll address it directly.

Why goat's lurking was notable? You're just reversing things here. Why is Goat's lurking any less worse when there are big lurkers around? The fact that there are lurkers in this game only reinforces my point that goat knows he can hide under the radar. I didn't even dodge this. Please quote the part where I dodged this. I even recall saying this exact same thing a while ago.
And with the 'essence' thing, with 'the essence of SirD's post' he is basically doing the same as he did first, namely using his own flawed summary to reply to my case, which is why I said that.

Because I feel he misinterpreted my case...

Again with the opinion. You might be of the opinion that you can fly, but I still wouldn't recommend jumping off a roof.

You might think you have a decent vocabulary, but the fact is that you don’t.

Etcetera.

Bolded part is an attack on me as a person. Sorry, but I don't tolerate that. This is a game and my vocabulary doesn't matter at all in this game.

And again you didn't reply to the point itself. How did you call that? Slippery!

Because I feel he misinterpreted my case, and showed it incorrectly to the rest of the town, and that it could perhaps even be used by scum as 'evidence'.
Oh wait, that already happened.

You asked, why would a townie do X. I replied. I did something because I felt I was misinterpreted and I tried to correct that. You did not reply to the actual point. I am getting the feeling you did this even more often in your arguments against me.

Now, I have to go, so if there are any other points just bring them up.

[sirdanilot]

mod: I'll be V/LA on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. It's maybe a bit early to tell you now but otherwise I may forget...

Jahudo: Since you have unvoted habitang in your 21st post in this thread (I got that from a one-player thread so I can't tell you the actual post number sorry, but that was around 15th August) you have not placed a vote or even a mere FoS on anyone yet, even not after your case on habitang. I was wondering why you aren't suspicious of anyone at all yet after such a long time? Who do you find the most suspicious and why?

[sirdanilot]

I was wondering why you aren't suspicious of anyone at all yet after such a long time? Who do you find the most suspicious and why?

Citizen Karne looks pretty scummy to me right now, but that is partially his avoidance to my questions for the past two weeks. It looks too easy for him to agree at face value with Simenon’s summary of nureins “Respond to contrary opinion by repeating bad argument…” and not saying anything himself, especially since he is voting for him.

For now though,

FoS: Citizen Karne

Ew. Why did you not FoS or vote him (or anyone else) before I asked? Why did you need my question to do so? I am not fond of this reply...

On to Ythill. I am going to accuse you of cherry-picking here. You did not address all my points, and you didn't quote the points you addressed entirely so I had to look up what they were about.

How is that scummy, actually. Why can't you explain that by a townie who got a tad frustrated there and used a different word choice.

I've just seen scum do it more than town is all. I've seen a few really bad players do it as town, but you don't strike me as that bad of a player. Just scummy.

You have failed to say why it is scummy in my case.

Wait, I already know the reason. 'You're scum, and this would be a very effective tactic for scum, so this brings more suspicion on you.'

You say that I don't

strike

you as a bad player. So basically, the fact that I give you a scum vibe is the reason that you find this scummy.

Now, I was very disappointed that you didn't reply to the following. It was probably really easy to skip this, wasn't it.

So the first one to make an, uhm, 'inane' comment wins the tie?

Do you get what I'm getting at here.

Reply.

Do you say that you are only going to be pro-town as an exception to the rule?

Not quite. I say that I'm only going to repeat myself as an exception to the rule. There's enough people grumbling about long posts as it is. They can read the evidence I've already posted, and so can you.

It wasn't really so much about repeating. When you posted your case that was based on paraphrases, you did not make it clear that those were paraphrases and you did not mention off what lines that I said you based them. Because of that, that case was flawed and scummy. Your case was less scummy when you actually backed it up. Is this going to be an exception to the rule? Do you not think that would be anti-town?

Also, you skipped this

Okay, and I defended myself against that because I acknowledged that I said something among the line of that paraphrase.

I made one argument where I accidentally assumed his alignment, and I was wrong when I did it.

Well... see... at first you were saying that you didn't make any. And I was saying that you'd made a few. Now you're saying that you've only made one, while I'm still saying that you've made a few. So your story is changing but mine isn't. Interesting.

You only showed me one. Therefore, you are lying, because unless you proof otherwise, I have only made one such comment. Do you think that this is pro-town behaviour?

(1) Bolded part is an attack on me as a person. Sorry, but I don't tolerate that. (2) This is a game and my vocabulary doesn't matter at all in this game.

(3) And again you didn't reply to the point itself.

(1) My apologies. I was using in-game examples (inane, asinine, essence) to demonstrate how facts trump opinions. Didn't intend to do more than rattle you and gain information... won't go there again. You have a great command of English for someone who speaks it as a second language.

(2) Correct, but someone

pretending

a poor vocabulary to sidestep arguments is

very

relevant. It seems to me, now, that your lack of understanding was honest, at least in those three cases.

(3) I've already replied to the point. I addressed (factually) why nuriens' summary wasn't underhanded, and so did he. I'm not going through it again.

(3) No, you only said that what he did was fair and that you thought it was pro-town of him. You didn't participate in the actual debate about nurein's summary. You did not defend each bit of it explaining why it was a good summary.

To my detractors:

Wait. Dictionary definition:
de·tract Audio Help /dɪˈtrækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-trakt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)
1. to take away a part, as from quality, value, or reputation (usually fol. by from).
–verb (used with object)
2. to draw away or divert; distract: to detract another's attention from more important issues.

So you call anyone not me as people who take away from your case against me? Wow, you must be really tunnelvisioned, so much that you think other people are just bugging you. How was that comment pro-town?

Or am I missing something here.

My next post will contain bits that you did not reply to. It will be quite big, most likely.

TPT:

random omgus votes Goat. Votes Ythill, sarcastically, this also seems to be omgus. More sarcasm, then a horrible, horrible self-vote. None of his posts seem to contain anything useful. Votes ectomancer for word-use (??) He... I don't know... that is the most anti-town play I've seen yet, from an otherwise intelligent coherent poster.... Then he disappears.

Tritch:

Made only one post, suggesting that the people voting for him were scum (specifically, nhat and me). Then disappeared.

I commented on the play of my predecessors. I do not agree with the self-vote and I can only explain it with that TPT was a frustrated newbie town. Tritch simply disappeared, nothing to get from that.

Sirdanilot:

Comes in with some very weak, vague reads on people. Then makes a case on Goat (but doesn't vote or FoS!), throws suspicion on Simenon and on everyone on the habit wagon.

Everyone on the habit wagon? Please go on and elaborate on this.

I explained why I did not FoS goat and why I did FoS Simenon.

He ignored my request to talk about his predecessors, but later answered Ythill's repeated request.

Show me where I ignored your request. I thought we had agreed to the fact that nobody requested this?

He goes on about his case on goat, but in fact never votes him. After some badgering, he decides that Ythill is scum for attacking him, and omgus votes him.

Horrible, absolutely horrible simplification of how it really went. You know damn well why I voted Ythill, and it was anything but simple OMGUS. I would have certainly voted him even if he did that to someone else.

Conclusions:

I find it hard to decide. Scum? Or frustrated and insecure town? I did hate the play of TPT and Tritch. But his defenseand his overall response to Ythill attacking him do not strike me as scummy. On the other hand, he hasn't done anything terribly pro-town either. I'm not convinced he's town, but I don't think he's the best lynch either.

Tritch didn't play. Can you name players who have done 'horribly pro-town' things, and what did they do?

This Ythill vs. Sirdan thing reminds me of the Simenon vs. Nuriens thing - a lot of noise and chaos, people getting upset, and neither party looks much better than the other. Which makes me think it might well be two townies fighting.

I actually agree. However, I am doubting more and more that Ythill is a towny, he keeps cutting out big parts of my posts and cherry picking only tiny parts. I don't see how town would do that.

Anyway Cass, I was a bit disappointed with this read. I would have expected something more thorough and better, but you simply mentioned a very simplistic version of reality without really adding anything.

In my next posts I will put the things that Ythill ignored, and I may check Simenon as I don't have a clear picture of what he actually contributed in the last few pages.

[sirdanilot]

Ythill, reply to the following posts. If you continue your evasive and cherry picking playstyle, you're just going to continue confirming yourself more as a scum. And there are many more things you didn't reply to.

2. What I said:

Goat is suspicious because he did something that he might have done as scum…

, which was in reference to the following statement from my initial case (#517): “Goat is scum because he did something that Goat might have done if he was scum.”

This statement was, of course, inspired by your #463 (“People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.”).

Alright then. See, this is pro-town behavior. You now win that particular argument in a pro-town way, by backing it up with something I said. Point taken.
Can you show any other places where I said things like that?

The ironic part is that, in rereading to find those quotes, I found more evidence against you. I’ll post it below.

No, how is it anti-town to allow someone who is accused to defend themselves?

I'm only going to say this one more time. I'm giving you the chance to defend yourself. I am not giving you the chance to smokescreen with garbage.

See, you really don't seem to understand me here. What you perceive as 'smokescreening with garbage' is my defense, whether you like it or not.

And, quantity=/= quality.

I addressed the quality issue at length. See, this is how slippery arguing works. Sirdan-scum posts explicit suspicions that do not match his stated evidence (serious scumtell); Ythill points this out, addressing the quality and quantity of sirdan-scum's evidence; sirdan-scum blathers around the accusation, pretending not to understand it; Ythill simplifies the accusation, addressing only quantity; sirdan-scum then argues that it was the quality of the evidence, not the quantity, which motivated him.

Anybody with a sixth grade reading level can see what you're doing if they take the time to go back and read our argument.

Why don't you reply to the actual point, and quote my entire bit there.

And, quantity=/= quality. I saw Simenon's general attitude, even though that was one of his few scumtells, as worthy of a FoS, and even though I listed a lot about Goatrevolt I wanted to work out the case using his defense before coming to my conclusion. Quite honestly, I'm pretty satisfied with goat now.

Reply.

You did it yourself more than once.

And you actually did do this yourself (sirdan-scum and chips anyone? you're going to hang, scum etc.).

What I did: suspect you, post evidence that has not been refuted, read your reactions to that evidence as scummy, come to the conclusion that you are scum, treat you as if you are scum.

No, what you did is: suspect me, vote me without having backed it up yet, post a more than decent attack, throw it by saying 'hahaha whatever scum' and not giving me the chance to defend'

You cannot know for sure that I am scum. It's impossible. Therefore, you should treat me like someone you suspect. If you start treating me like I'm scum, you start reading into the past, and, with your 'knowledge' that I am scum, you keep seeing more and more scum tells.

What you did: seem like you suspect Goat; post unreliable evidence that was refuted by several players; make arguments that assume Goat's alignment, using them to back up your flawed case; claim that you never thought Goat was scum because you never said it; drop the subject.

I made

one

argument where I accidentally assumed his alignment, and I was wrong when I did it. And I didn't really drop the subject, but obviously this discussion with you takes up way more time.

I explained this point in an earlier post, and you did not reply to it. Because I properly defended myself when you brought up this accusation using a concrete case, you decided to bring it up abstractly?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, because I may have missed a valid point in your mountains of bullshit. Quote your response or point me to it and I'll address it directly.

Why goat's lurking was notable? You're just reversing things here. Why is Goat's lurking any less worse when there are big lurkers around? The fact that there are lurkers in this game only reinforces my point that goat knows he can hide under the radar. I didn't even dodge this. Please quote the part where I dodged this. I even recall saying this exact same thing a while ago.
And with the 'essence' thing, with 'the essence of SirD's post' he is basically doing the same as he did first, namely using his own flawed summary to reply to my case, which is why I said that.

And again you didn't reply to the point itself. How did you call that? Slippery!

Because I feel he misinterpreted my case, and showed it incorrectly to the rest of the town, and that it could perhaps even be used by scum as 'evidence'.
Oh wait, that already happened.

You asked, why would a townie do X. I replied. I did something because I felt I was misinterpreted and I tried to correct that. You did not reply to the actual point. I am getting the feeling you did this even more often in your arguments against me.

Now, a quick one-player thread on Simenon shows that his most recent posts are nothing more but catchy one liners and clever questions. And most of those questions address details only.

Simenon, do you think that your play style is helpful to the town?

Do you think that the fact that Ythill ignored all the points that I quoted above is pro-town?

[sirdanilot]

I am going to accuse you of cherry-picking here.

I’ve replied to what I found relevant.

If I post enough to show that you are dishonest, then I’ve done my job.

Here’s some more cherries for y’all…

You are wrong.

If that is your definition of scumhunting, then this debate is over. You didn't reply to the points I told you to reply to, and you blatantly continued what you were doing. You are not helpful to the town in doing so and I am now pretty damn sure that you are in fact scum.

You only showed me one.

Lie.

I cited (and quoted) your #s 437, 444, & 463. I even separated them into two types of assumption (experience level means can’t be read as town, and did something he might have done as scum) which were numbered. This is all in my post #568, but was also repetition of things I’d already stated and explained. You quoted the cites from #568 so, again, you can’t plead ignorance.

Now, you may have a point here. I do not have the time to research this right now and I am going away over the weekend but I'll get to this eventually. This is the only actual point so far that you have against me. All the rest are either based on the assumption that I am scum or I defended myself properly against them.

Seriously people… why are more of you not on this wagon?

Because you are cherry-picking and lying?

Seriously, doesn't anyone see what he is doing here? He purposely continues to do something that I asked him not to do. He rips my arguments out of context and then calls them lies. No shit, if you rip them out they may very well say something that I didn't imply at all. He keeps badgering that I am 'sirdan-scum'.

First, I quoted his entire post and say why even the cherry picked points where false, but I decided to just cut them all out as there's no use. He is going to continue what he is doing. I say we lynch Ythill. There's no way that a towny would do something like this. He is only distracting the town with his continuous badgering and conviction that someone is scum.

I am now almost fully convinced that Ythill is not a tunnel visioned towny. I cannot possibly imagine a towny this tunnel visioned. And, Ythill, if you do flip town, then I think you should change your play style. It is not effective at all. You just convince yourself that someone is scum and you do everything to make sure they are. This is not an effective scum hunting technique. You simply cut out any good defenses that I have to make me fit into the picture.

On to simenon.

Simenon, do you think that your play style is helpful to the town?

If we are to take your depiction as accurate (I personally find it unfair),

How

is it unfair. Back this up.

then I don't see how it can possibly hurt. I'm asking what I think are the right questions; vague and inconsistent language that should at the very least be cleared up. Could I be doing more? Certainly. But as I've said, this game is very hard to get into, and I have a lot of work to do. So here it is.

Not bad =/= not anti town. You have to actually contribute. Now, what I am going to say is not that I assume you are scum, but I think you could imagine that it could be possible that someone started thinking you were scum, desperately trying to avoid getting into really big debates (such as ythill-me) but also trying not to lurk. Could you give us the town version of your behaviour (ie. clarify your behaviour while assuming that you are town)?

Do you think that the fact that Ythill ignored all the points that I quoted above is pro-town?

What exactly are you asking here?

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. Just answer the question please. Yes or no with an explanation.

[sirdanilot]

So, the people that I'd lynch.

1. Ythill. I posted my reasoning above.

And as for two others, I'm not sure. Simenon comes to mind, but I'm not finished debating with him yet. He keeps avoiding questions, so that may take a while. I don't really think Goatrevolt is scum, even though I suspected him earlier. He's defended himself well.

I wouldn't mind a pacman or citizen karne lynch. I don't really think that either of them are scum though, but I may be wrong.

Jahudo somehow gives me a scum vibe, but I know that if I'd make a case against him it would turn out into nothing. He just gives me a vibe, that's all.

So Ythill-Simenon-Jahudo.

How

is it unfair. Back this up.

The burden of proof is

not

on me here.

You could've just answered the question.

Not bad =/= not anti town.

Yes, it necessarily means it's not anti-town by definition.

Then, what is actually bad for the town?

Wow, it took me a few minutes to realize how clever your argument was. You said something like 'I don't realize how not contributing is bad', and I followed along with something like 'even if it's not bad it doesn't mean that it's not anti-town' and you just said 'yes it does'. Obviously you successfully tricked me here, but in this case I'm to blame.

So, let's try again. I do think your play is bad for the town. Why? Because it doesn't contribute, and gives the town less information than when you would contribute more.

You have to actually contribute.

In my view, I am contributing.

You're contributing a bit, but not enough. You just comment on single one-liners that you picked up and you reply to them with a one-liner. Sure, this contributes a bit, but you could've done more.

Now, what I am going to say is not that I assume you are scum, but I think you could imagine that it could be possible that someone started thinking you were scum, desperately trying to avoid getting into really big debates (such as ythill-me) but also trying not to lurk. Could you give us the town version of your behaviour (ie. clarify your behaviour while assuming that you are town)?

What?

This question is really, really muddled.

You could've also answered it. Let me rephrase. I want you to clarify your play in your last few posts. I can't do this since I don't know if you're town or not, and you do know your own alignment.

Why should I have gotten into a big debate?

I didn't say that. If you had gotten into a big debate, it would've been helpful, but there are also other ways to be helpful. For example, I think that what Cass is doing is helpful. I am not going to tell you exactly how to be helpful, if you're town you should know what to do.

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. Just answer the question please. Yes or no with an explanation.

No. It is your job to clarify your questions. I am not going to get pushed into responding to verbal traps.

And for god's sake stop being disingenuous. Your insistence on forcing "yes or no" answers on confusing questions is bizarre.

I don't know what disingenuous means. My question was not confusing at all.

Let me rephrase: What do you think of Ythill's playstyle (which includes not answering a very large part of my defense)?

You are wrong. If that is your definition of scumhunting, then this debate is over. You didn't reply to the points I told you to reply to, and you blatantly continued what you were doing. You are not helpful to the town in doing so and I am now pretty damn sure that you are in fact scum.

is pretty silly.

Learn to back up your claims.

Why

is it silly?

[sirdanilot]

Jahudo somehow gives me a scum vibe, but I know that if I'd make a case against him it would turn out into nothing. He just gives me a vibe, that's all.

As Im waiting for more people to give opinions and conform a view of who to lynch, Ill not be too much aggressive. How is possible you want to lynch someone, you find him scum but you believe your case would turn out into nothing? please explain me that...

I mentioned my gut feeling. My gut says Jahudo may be scum. I have little clarification for this (so far only his lack of voting/suspecting people) and there are bigger suspects than him (Ythill, Simenon to some extent). I mentioned this gut feeling because, well, I think it's something for the town to consider, however small. I am not going to advocate a Jahudo lynch, since Ythill is way more likely to be scum. That doesn't take away that if it somehow would come to a Jahudo L-1, I'd hardly hesitate to hammer since there wouldn't be that little voice in my head that says 'don't lynch him'. Hence, I felt I should mention it and I did.

On to Ythill. Somehow, it didn't occur to me that a Ythill meta would be very helpful to determine if he uses this play style more often. So, let's investigate this. I did not read every single post of his in every single game, obviously. I glanced over Ythill's posts in these games and I checked if I saw interesting things, like the badgering he is doing to me. If I happen to miss some badgering and someone else (like Ythill himself) knows that he did badger in that game, be my guest to inform me. Just don't go and accuse me of shit like 'you purposefully ignored that post I badgered there too and I was town sirdan-scum olol'.

Now, is a meta definitive evidence? Most certainly not. I do however feel that a meta may add something about Ythill.

Newbie 493 (Vanilla): He didn't seem to be very aggressive in that game. The most notable, however, is that he at some point replaced out because another player kept offending people. Now, I didn't read into that other player that much so I'm not sure if he really offended him, but this does remind me of something with pot, kettle, black...
Mini 508 (Vanilla): Not that aggressive in this game imo. He replaced in at the end.
Mini 539 (Vig): He refused to random vote in this game too. Anyway, every single post of his is absolutely humongous (as in, really really big) so I'm not too sure what to think of that. His posts here aren't that big (although they're not exactly small). I agree that post length doesn't say all that much, so on to the content. He isn't that agressive for the biggest part of this game, but at some point he resorts into questioning the intelligence of a certain player. Nowhere, however, do I see stuff like 'hahaha you're scum' 'scum ' '(playername)-scum lol'.
Mini 542 (Vanilla): No random vote again. Not very aggressive imo.
Mini 565 (Mafia Godfather): Wow, finally a game where Ythill's scum ( he seems to have pretty bad luck when it comes to getting fun roles!). Anyway, no random vote again. The phrase 'to my detractors' happened to catch my eye. He is slightly more aggressive in this game than in others, or at least it gives me that feeling.
Mini 591: No random vote. He utilizes HoS, FoS and whatnot in this game (and he claimed not to do that here in 645!). I don't see any obvious badgering here.

General habits: Not really that aggressive as scum nor as town. At the beginning of every game, he explains his play style ('sometimes I keep things secret and you may not perceive that as a scumtell') at the beginning of every game and he does not random vote. Some of his posts are humongous and include tables and analysis of every player from different viewing angles. These are mostly when he is playing town-aligned.

So, conclusion:
1. No badgering in the games he has finished (and that I checked). As far as I know, this is the first time he is badgering like this.
2. He never random votes.
3. He utilized FoSes in other games, and he claimed not to. Most suspicious thing so far IMO.

This meta didn't make me any less suspicious of Ythill. I learned a lot about Ythill's habits and play style so I do not think it was useless at all. It took me a very long time to make this, but I think it was worth it.

[sirdanilot]

I already have my vote on Ythill, who is my top suspect and second in the list. I think Ythill is very likely to be scum, and enormous amounts of information will come to us if he does flip scum. And even if he doesn't (unlikely) that gives us some information too.

@Ythill: The method that I used to track down your games is as follows:

1. I searched for author 'Ythill' in mafia forums.
2. Tadaaaa! A list of games finished by Ythill.
3. I picked some games from the list. I did not pick them all, and I did not first check the game only to see 'ah he's aggressive AND town in that game so I won't mention it in my meta'.
4. I read one-player threads from Ythill in those games. Well, more that I skimmed over them and I randomly clicked some pages for beginning game, midgame and endgame.

I wasn't aware of any game 609, but I'll have a look. I don't like how you compare me to Gimbo, seriously, do I deserve that?

[sirdanilot]

Good, some meta on mini 609 (Kingmaker): I have never heard of the 'kingmaker' variant, looks like fun. I think a Kingmaker is a pro-town power role? Anyway, yes, you did utilize 'LOL whatever scum' here, and you badgered a bit, so yeah you utilized that tactic here. However, I still feel that you have never badgered anyone as much as you're now doing to me, and even though you nailed scum with it in that game, you are obviously not on the right track here in 645.

Also, can you really compare me to this?

hope you fall crack your skull, or gets killed like these guys in this book I'm reading The Woods by Harlan Steubens. They got their throats slit too, exciting, eh?

I seriously lol'd here.

Anyway, what I meant is, you do not reply to my defenses. You only rip some things out of context in my posts and you use them to 'prove' that I am scum.

How do you expect me to stop this? I know that if you are going to continue this way, day 1 may very well end into a mislynch (me). I can't defend myself, since you ignore it. Even though it has worked so far for you, this tactic is very bad and it will some day work against you. That is, if you're town.

This tactic does have everything that good scum tactic needs, though. Very convincing, it may very well provoke a mislynch, and you have good excuses to pretend it's a townie technique. It's a bit risky, but you pull it off very well.

A Ythill lynch would seriously give us heaps of information here. Why does nobody see this?

MOD: Where is nhat? Please prod nhat.

[sirdanilot]

I intended to post this earlier, but my internet went down (it tends to do that in this country). At least I got the chance to save it in notepad.

Also, can you really compare me to this?

No. My comparison was about your slippery styles before my attacks and during the early part of them.

Every player is different and reacts differently to pressure.

Anyway, what I meant is, you do not reply to my defenses.

How do you expect me to stop this?

Reply to the accusations directly. Convince me that you are not scum. It's that simple. I may not have replied to everything you said, but I have read every word. Usually more than once.

I replied to the accusations directly. You ignored it. How am I supposed to convince you that I am not scum, if you simply ignore my defenses?

You're not going to trick me into clearing you. You have to show me that I am wrong.

I don't think you can because I don't think I am.

Oh snap. You think I'm scum so I am going to have a really hard time to convince you that I am not, especially when you ignore my defenses. Tunnel vision.

A Ythill lynch would seriously give us heaps of information here.

Would it? There's some, but... heaps? The majority gained would come from the last few pages, which means we'd get the same info by lynching you. Plus, with you, we'd get to take a fresh look at the reactions to Pope's nonsense.

But I'm not calling for an info lynch on you. I think you're scum.

Now this is where we're talking. Firstly, I am pretty damn sure that you are scum, so won't be just an info lynch. Secondly, why do you say that most information will only come from the last few pages? Nureins/ythill as well as earlier arguments will give us a lot too. My predecessors were absent for a large part of the game (between tpt and tritch and after tritch disappeared until I popped in) so the information gained from a lynch on me would be less due to sheer quantity, although I agree that if my alignment is confirmed it will shed a light on a lot of things as well.

Anyway, I agree with Goat that alignment is way more important than information. People should lynch whoever they find the scummiest and come to a consensus before the deadline pressure kicks in, and I am willing to compromise if Ythill isn't our target for today.

[sirdanilot]

Firstly, I am pretty damn sure that you are scum, so won't be just an info lynch.

All you've got is OMGUS and a weak playstyle case that's been disproven by meta. You cannot possibly be sure.

Ahahahahaha. You are so wrong, but so damn clever. Does everybody see what he's doing here? I metaed Ythill, and I said beforehand that meta doesn't

prove

anything, obviously this also means it can't prove your innocence.

Your play style does not help the town. I have said this numerous times, and I explained why. You ignore my defenses and a lot of your arguments base themselves on the assumption that I am scum.

You

cannot possibly be sure of my scumminess.

And I don't care that you did it

once

before as a town, and that you were right. Your tactic may be effective to catch scum, but only if you already know they are.

Oh, and I know that the following argument may sound like I am assuming Ythill is scum, but it'd be pretty damn easy for scum to abuse this and make someone seem very scummy. And I think that's been done in this game.

Ythill, I am pretty sure you know more than well that you can't

disprove

things by meta. So, here's another scum tell!

Sirdan-scum's other points are more of his lies and nonsense, so I'll fall back on, "whatever, scum."

Oh snap.

[sirdanilot]

Note:

I've been a bit busy as of late so sorry for the lack of posting. I don't have time for big replies right now.

[sirdanilot]

I am going to wait until Darox finishes reading and posts some content to decide whom of Matin/Citizen/Darox and habitang/pacman is a better lynch out of those two. I am currently leaning Darox (I really never saw habitang as suspicious), but I may change my mind about that matter.

Darox, while you're reading the game, it may be good if you get a separate read on the most suspicious players (tpt/me and Ythill) as well, and maybe some explanation about the play of your predecessors.

note:

I still do not have the time to make a big post. I was planning to make one big post which is about Ythill or my defense (or both), but I can't find the time for it. Maybe I can get to it Sunday, but I doubt it...

[sirdanilot]

EBWOP: Wow, I managed to cross post with that huge PBPA (Page by Page analysis!).

[sirdanilot]

Darox, could you post some content please. What do you think about your predecessor? What do you think about recent big debates? Why is pacman more scummy than anyone else?

I could ask more questions but I'm sure that you can handle 'posting more content' yourself very well.

Pacman, I'm not sure what you mean with that I am 'gone'. If you want me to post anything specifically, just ask.

[sirdanilot]

Just for the record, I read L-3 (which isn't even close to a lynching majority) as a statement from someone who's getting worried.

Also, I don't like not wanting to post your opinion for fear of being trapped.

hmm.
You cutted off the first statement; I'm feared because there might be a deadline I didn't see...
And, to the second, I have ever the feeling of being missing something; I'm not enough experienced here, and usually when I attack, I miss something and I get trapped.

HORRIBLE ATTITUDE

The fact that you are a newbie does not mean you shouldn't scumhunt. Not scum hunting is a very anti-town attitude, you should scumhunt at all times if there isn't a jester in the game (and there isn't). This really looks like a really easy way to avoid scumhunting and to avoid to contribute to the town.

Also, maybe a bit irrelevant, but do you know what to do if you don't know if there is a deadline.

YOU ASK THE MOD LIKE THIS: ' IS THERE A DEADLINE?'

@pacman: Are you worried about being lynched? If so, why? What did you mean by "trapped into a misread"?

I'm worried about deadlines, and also because I'm a really bad player under pressure (example: NG624). For the second part, read my answer to kuribo.

Same as above.

B-A-D

Seriously, you have made yourself become more scummy in my book. I am going to give you a little FoS.

FoS pacman

[sirdanilot]

Darox, you ignored my question. Don't ignore my questions.

Darox, could you post some content please. What do you think about your predecessor? What do you think about recent big debates? Why is pacman more scummy than anyone else?

I could ask more questions but I'm sure that you can handle 'posting more content' yourself very well.

Anyway, you found nureins scummy because you think he's scummy? Wow, I really can't top that logic. Let's lynch nureins!

Seriously, you have made yourself become more scummy in my book. I am going to give you a little FoS.

FoS pacman

Sirdan, might you convince me that what I said in post 749, part b is yet correct ?

Great. Thanks for wasting my time by forcing me to check back when you could have just quoted it.

b) sirdan mantains his vote solidly (in that sense, this is good for my view of him. He has not tried to jump over other wagons)

Ah, I've finally found it. What the hell? Where the hell did I jump on a bandwagon? What are you talking about? My FoS on pacman? Oh, come on. I expressed a FoS because he posted something scummy. I can do that whenever the hell I so please. Stop restraining other users by telling them they can't express suspicion or vote someone. It's unbelievably annoying, and also scummy. I am not going to glance over a scummy post, say 'oh but if I express suspicion I'll be accused of bandwagoning', and then ignore it. In fact, it's a tactic scum may use. Do you want me to avoid helping the town? Instead of being useless and call people out on scumhunting, you had better do some more hunting yourself.

Do not simply repeat your arguments on pacman. I perfectly understand them and I mostly agree with you, so this part is clear. But you will understand that there are many ways to express your suspicions and scumhuntings (if it is so), especially if you are bandwagoned. Maybe is a casuality of fate, but you chose the moment in which pacman and you appear as the ones with more votes to put a FOS on him (and allowing you a further change of vote). And I am not accusing you of changing your vote, I know you have not done, and so on and so forth...

'I'm not accusing you of anything, and I don't mean it this way...'

Then why did you even mention this? Seriously, you said something downright anti town, and now you dismiss it too?

[sirdanilot]

Nureins, I meant my FoS as something to enforce how scummy Pacman's post was. It isn't a half vote or something. And even if it was, I can vote whoever I so please.

Now, it looks like votes are building up on Pacman. In my opinion, Ythill is still the better play for the town but I'm curious to see where the bandwagon goes.

And nureins, you're not the only one suspecting Simenon, he's somewhere on my scum list too (but not at the top).

[sirdanilot]

Nureins, assuming someone is town is very bad, even worse than assuming someone is scum. Why would you defend Ythill? Can't he defend himself? Seriously, stop talking for other players and tell them what they can and can't do.

Also, where's Simenon and nhat?

[sirdanilot]

Nureins and kuribo can continue bickering for as long as they please, Ectomancer.

[sirdanilot]

Nureins and kuribo can continue bickering for as long as they please, Ectomancer.

They can continue bickering and get nowhere. If kuribo is so damn hot to get on and lynch somebody, he could have simply posted the last statement and been done with it instead of dragging the crap out over an entire page.
Both of them stated they were making certain assumptions that flew over the head of the other.

Yes, they can continue bickering and get nowhere. The content of that bickering won't give us any information, but the bickering itself may. If it's not pro-town to continue bickering, and yet they continue bickering, that gives us information. If you don't want them to bicker, lynch them.

Get. Over. It.

Get. Over. What. Ending. All. Of. Your. Words. With. Periods. Is. Annoying. And. Doesn't. Reinforce. Your. Case.

unvote

I doubt Darox is going to be budged by me without outside support.

vote Sirdanilot

I hate this voting style. You should vote the person you find the most likely to be scum. Who is more likely to be scum, Darox or me? You pick. The fact that more people are voting me doesn't mean I am more likely to be scum.

How about letting them answer, Sir "I have to get this Pro-town statement in"?

There's nothing anti-town about a pro-town statement.

Unfortunately for you, it isn't a Pro-town statement

at this juncture in a game

.

FYI, I posted that when the deadline was not yet in place. Look back.

Makes it better for you if they

do

bicker doesn't it? With town itching to lynch, it makes it just that much more likely that the focus will center on the top vote getters (one is you) and if you can get two town members to take up time bickering with each other, so much the better.

Need 3 more.

Again, that was before the deadline. Anyway, my point was not that I want them to bicker. I said that they

can

bicker if they want to. Look up to see my reasoning.

I see your post as very bad and not a good reason to vote for me at all. It's because of posts like these that scum can take control of the game.


Anyway, more important matters. I am going to keep my vote on Ythill, since I am rather sure that he is scum and I do not see a reason to vote anyone else (unlike our friend ectomancer, who prefers not to keep his vote on this number one suspect if that gives him a tactical disadvantage). Only if changing my vote could prevent a no-lynch, I would lynch someone not named Ythill.

[sirdanilot]

Ugh, I lost a big post due to stupid CPU.

What "case" are you referring to here?
~~
Of course, I'd be willing to lynch Sirdan. He's my #2.

I meant his reasoning to vote me, not really a case. Also, it wasn't really meant seriously. You should know to ignore comments like that.

hmm... if bickering would send us to nowhere, then stop bickering is the best ending for it. And most, given the situation we are having right now. We are hoping to end the day, we don't want to keep a discussion until a no-lynch deadline.

Yes, it would be better to stop bickering, as the bickering is useless. However, if they continue to bicker, this puts suspicion on them because they continue to do something anti-town.

If. It. Is...
bah.
If it is annoying, don't do that. Three words is less annoying than... wait, 17 words?! And, given Ecto's playstyle I didn't consider it annoying. Yeah, maybe that was not needed. But yours is really annoying.

It wasn't meant seriously. Stop taking it seriously. Just ignore it.

That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...

Define a mislynch. For me, a mislynch would be either a) someone not you or in my list of suspects) or b) a No-lynch. Since b) is worse than a), I'd be willing to do a) over b). But you, Ythill, are most likely scum, so obviously prefer to keep my vote on you.

Okay, I understand you perfectly. Don't worry, you shouldn't have to change your vote.

I also find the timing of this comment defensive because we were just talking about how scum would vote the other candidate and, well, you want to... don'tcha? But only at the last minute...

No I don't want to. I want to lynch you.

Cross-posted.

Compare the last posts of sirdan and pacman. Do it... you know you want to do it.

Which one is the play?

Absolutely horrible. My last post is not a good indication of my alignment, same for pacman. Another scumtell for Ythill.

Town, can you really allow yourself to get lead by someone like this? He's just trying to manipulate you. Come on. 'do it...you know you want to do it'. This is just ridiculous. This is just an appeal to emotion.

And no, don't accuse me of hypocrisy here, I did not do the same as you did.

[sirdanilot]

Define a mislynch. For me, a mislynch would be either a) someone not you or in my list of suspects) or b) a No-lynch. Since b) is worse than a), I'd be willing to do a) over b). But you, Ythill, are most likely scum, so obviously prefer to keep my vote on you.
Absolutely horrible. My last post is not a good indication of my alignment, same for pacman. Another scumtell for Ythill.

Town, can you really allow yourself to get lead by someone like this? He's just trying to manipulate you. Come on. 'do it...you know you want to do it'. This is just ridiculous. This is just an appeal to emotion.

And no, don't accuse me of hypocrisy here, I did not do the same as you did.

A "mislynch," is when a townie gets lynched.

And statements like "you're allowing yourselves to get led by someone like this," "He's manipulating you," and "This is ridiculous." Do you know what that's called? Yep. An appeal to emotion. Because you're expecting people to say, "BY GOD HE'S RIGHT!" and then turn on Ythill.

Anyway, you give us an objective definition of a mislynch. I appreciate that, as it allows me to reply to Ythill in a new perspective. As for the appeal to emotion part, you are partially right. I lowered myself to Ythill's level there, and I shouldn't have. I'm sorry for that.

However, do you agree that Ythill's statement was an appeal to emotion as well?

That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...

Lynching pacman would be a mislynch, since I am not convinced pacman is scum at all. I am however rather sure that you are scum, so the chances of us mislynching would be smaller if we lynched you. Only if a no-lynch is unavoidable if I don't change my vote, I will vote pacman.

[sirdanilot]

3 days before the deadline, and knowing that a claim will cause a lot of discussion, I think it would be better for me to claim as soon as possible.

Ythill, chapeau. You've successfully pressured a pro-town power role into claiming. Your strategy, which has had its successes when played by a town role, works very well as scum too. And if you are in fact town (probably not), then this proves that you should find a different play style, since when you are wrong (and you will be wrong again in the future, probably even more than that you'll be right) there's no way back and it hurts the town incredibly.

I'm the doctor.

Now, I'd be absolutely delighted when someone dares to counterclaim, since that gives us Ythill's partner.

[sirdanilot]

No, Ythill is not scum because he outed a power role. Ythill is scum (I am not going to repeat why again) and he outed a power role. Stop misunderstanding my posts.

[sirdanilot]

Nureins, you unvote a not counterclaimed power role.

FoS Nureins

[sirdanilot]

note to mod: Today was marathon day so I didn't have time to post here, and I'll probably be busy tomorrow as well, sorry for the inconvenience

[sirdanilot]

I protected Ectomancer. I don't think this clears him though, as more complex powers may be at work here. It's always hard to guess night-actions when we only know one power role (and it's a mafia role).

Instead of bickering, let's look at the votes.

Darox: (7) Goatrevolt, Cass, Ectomancer, nureins, pacman281292, nhat, Ythill
pacman281292: (3) Simenon, kuribo, Darox
Ythill: (1) sirdanilot

Not voting: Jahudo

Jahudo's non-vote gives me some scummy vibes. He has hesitated to vote or FoS throughout the entire day. He deserves a closer look day 2.

Ythill never really suspected his scumbud... *cough* pacman. This made it very easy for him to hammer Darox at the end, and nhat helped him too. I would imagine a hypothetical Ythill-town as a plausible night kill for the scum, as they know that I'd never protect Ythill and that if Ythill used his manipulative power against an actual mafia player, they'd be in pretty big trouble.

Goat, Cass and ecto were the three who suspected Darox/Matin/Karne from the beginning. The others followed to vote him later on. Let's recreate the events after my claim, that lead to a switch of votes to pacman and darox, and ultimately resulted into the lynch of darox.

868 - I claim.
871 - nureins doesn't unvote
901 - Ecto changes vote to Darox, with no reasoning
902 - Jahudo unvotes
903 - Ythill votes pacman, trying to cover for when I flip town
904 - nureins is being very scummy here. after 3 people changed their votes within a short time span, he decides to flip to darox, and he says he'll vote pacman when people tell him to. why doesn't he vote where his suspicions lie?
905 - pacman claims townie and votes darox, saying he posted reasoning elsewhere
909 - nhat notes the darox bandwagon built up fast, yet he votes him, putting him at l-1. could be something a scum would do, clearing the way for his buddy ythill to hammer, but now I'm speculating and assuming people are scum so whatever. Anyway, I am very interested to see the play of nhat's replacement.
928 - ythill makes some final preparations to hammer darox
952 - looks like a more or less honest analysis, he unvotes to let darox claim, good.
963 - Ythill makes a message, he apparently expects to die... and he hammers darox.

To me, Ythill isn't any less suspicious than he was, the contrary actually. I hate nureins' performance in the last pages of day 1, nhat wasn't a pro-town hero either but we're going to see a lot from his replacement I hope. And jahudo still gives me some vibes, as well as simenon.

[sirdanilot]

So the players responsible for leading the town led it into a scumlynch and nothing changes.

I remember when players used to at least promise to take a new look at the game.

What are you talking about? I don't understand this.

[sirdanilot]

YOU ARE DEAD. STOP POSTING UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE BANNED FROM PLAYING (at least in my games).

[/list]

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

That made my day.

---

Anyway, on to the game.

FALSE. ALL THE ARGUMENTS.

1. I announced my vote to Darox before Ecto and Pacman voted.

2. I announced my scum list repeatedly, before your claim.

3. I said Id vote (lynch) pacman if there was some risk of no-lynch, also before your claim. And later again.

4. My suspicions lied on you. Then on simenon. Then on Darox.

-----

Then all your arguments in the same sentence are FALSE. And not vaguely false, but TOTALLY FALSE.

Please answer this post and comment each of my 4 points.

Nureins, I am more than willing to discuss this with you, since I think this is very important. However, you did not provide evidence (in the form of quotes) for 1, 2 and 3. A couple of quotes would do a lot to clarify this for me, so I can properly write a response. I decided not to dig through the thread to find evidence for your defense. If you are going to defend yourself, present some quotes to back it up.

@sirdan: Why did you protect Ecto? Also, could you please expand on why you think the mafia would have targeted Ecto?

When night came, I did not really feel 'ecto is the obvious choice to protect here', I was doubting between several players. I decided not to protect the people that I suspected, since protecting a mafia would be useless. I knew there was a risk that Ythill-town would be killed, but I decided that the odds that he is scum were too high. Ythill is still alive, so I do not regret this choice.
Simenon didn't really contribute to the town, and he was on my suspect list as well, so I didn't protect him. I figured nureins wouldn't be a probable target, nor would nhat or goatrevolt. Nureins was more or less harmless to possible scum, in my opinion, and nhat and goatrevolt didn't post a lot. Pacman didn't give me town vibes either, although I must admit I never really suspected him, he did do some scummy things at the end (and I expressed my FoS on that). Jahudo was also on my suspect list, so only Ectomancer, Cass, and kuribo were left. A gut feeling told me Cass wasn't really the way to go, so it came down to Ecto and kuribo. I chose ecto. In retrospect, kuribo would have been a better choice perhaps, but I don't really regret my choice.
Lastly, I feel like I should mention that this the first time that I am the doctor, and I do have a few games under my belt.

I find it a bit weird that you are asking me to give all this information, though. Motives?

Okay, for starters, I skimmed over pacman's posts in isolation.

He and sirdan refusing to vote one another was odd knowing that pacman was scum. Why would scum not protect himself? He certainly did so when Darox became an option. Pacman also pleads a lack of understanding and thereby avoids the me vs. sirdan debate until his gambit post (#736).

I clearly stated that I never really suspected pacman. I had plenty of opportunity to hammer Darox, and I could have tried to get pacman lynched too. I didn't. I thought (and I still think) that Ythill is scum. That's my side of the story.

[sirdanilot]

I have my doubts that

A) Sirdan saw Ecto as the most pro-town player

and that

B) The Mafia saw Ecto as the biggest threat to them.

A) Why?
B) Why?

You know, it's also possible the Mafia forgot to send in a kill.

(I've been on scumteams where we waited for the godfather to send in the kill, and he forgot to do it.)

This is wifom, there's no way to verify this, and it's unlikely. External factors like absence and forgetting something are outside of the scope of the game, in my opinion.

[sirdanilot]

FALSE. ALL THE ARGUMENTS.

1. I announced my vote to Darox before Ecto and Pacman voted.

2. I announced my scum list repeatedly, before your claim.

3. I said Id vote (lynch) pacman if there was some risk of no-lynch, also before your claim. And later again.

4. My suspicions lied on you. Then on simenon. Then on Darox.

-----

Then all your arguments in the same sentence are FALSE. And not vaguely false, but TOTALLY FALSE.

Please answer this post and comment each of my 4 points.

Nureins, I am more than willing to discuss this with you, since I think this is very important. However, you did not provide evidence (in the form of quotes) for 1, 2 and 3. A couple of quotes would do a lot to clarify this for me, so I can properly write a response. I decided not to dig through the thread to find evidence for your defense. If you are going to defend yourself, present some quotes to back it up.

1. Post 883. I announce my vote-movement to Darox.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

Another reference in Post 898 (read the quote later in response to 2). Prior again to Ecto's vote. So I said it TWICE before Ecto voted.

Ecto votes in post 901. Pacman, nhat and Ythill later. I announced my Darox vote at L-5. No other of this group of four people announced a vote for Darox prior to 883, if you are wondering.

[/quote]
Ah yes, you announced that you would switch to Darox. You waited for 3 other people to do so first, though. I do not take back my first argument completely, but you are correct that you announced this beforehand.

2. There are many of these. Especially when Darox was replacing Karne and there was a mess of votes in between 4 people (Sirdan, Ythill, Pacman and karne/darox). Here it goes one, but there are many others. My top scummies were Sirdan > Simenon > Darox, and among the 4 with most votes, the orther was Sirdan > darox > pacman > ythill, with Ythill largely below the other 3.

I was laughing a bit, because right now, among you four, my suspect list is

sirdan > karne > pacman > ythill

and you are the last in the list..Im really amazed.

The post was directed to Ythill, since among the four, I considered Ythill the only townie with large probability as to defend him fiercely.

Another one, before Ecto voted for Darox is in post 898. This connects to such previous ranking, as you can easily see.

Id vote simenon (though now he is more or less at darox level), but nonsense. Darox was my third chance, and Ill vote him. Im not trying to shift focus onto anything. I find Darox more suspicious than pacman. Then I vote for darox. If risk of no-lynch, I vote pacman...

And this quote is also another example for 1, as I mentioned.

Okay.

3. BEFORE YOUR CLAIM:
Post 818

If we arrive to this weird situation, id like to know how many ppl is convinced that the other deserves a defence as town. In my case, im not convinced that pacman can be defended, so i wouldnt mind to lynch him...

The weird situation was a 6-6 tie situation between you and pacman, that was likely to occur giving the opposed view...

AFTER YOUR CLAIM:
read above post 898 (and there is another one, post 894)

4. You dont ask me for quotes to defend 4, but you can see some of them with Karne and also the one I cited in 898.

----

Then, your claim is TOTALLY FALSE.

Your argument of me voting for Darox at L-2 is "poor", as it lies in a real vote but not in my announcement, that came at L-5. If your argument is that L-2 votes and around in the current situation are suspicious, maybe people who voted after my announcement was influenced for my announcement, dont you think ? They knew I would vote for Darox soon, so they had my vote in mind. They are the "L-2" voters, not me. I announced my vote twice, only the BOLDFACE was lacking.

Also, your argument that I voted for someone I considered less suspicious is totally false, as I showed to you. All your "case" falls down.

Also, my "pacman-vote" compromise was a vote in case a no-lynch was faced. This situation never happened, so I never was in the situation to cast my vote for Pacman. Summing up, I came from Sirdan to Darox, going down in my scumlist (avoiding simenon, as that vote was nonsense, and the probability of a simenon lynching was almost zero, if not zero).

Then all your arguments are flawed. Completely. Not partially, but from A to Z. If this was not a game with experienced players that seem to suggest your claim is 90 per cent true or above, I would be really suspicious of you now with such poor arguments trying to join easily a wagon around me. After reading my quotes, go back to your argument and re-think it.

Alright then. You defended yourself well, I don't really have anything else to say. Thanks for clarifying this to me, it makes you seem a bit less of a suspect.

[sirdanilot]

-Here's the big one, and the only solid reason I have for doubting his claim: How does TPT's play make sense if he's the doc? Quite frankly, it doesn't. His self vote was under the premise of "well you are going to lynch me anyway, I might as well speed up the process." Um...if he's a doc he has a solid safe claim that means he's NOT going to get lynched. So why this mentality?

I agree. I did not understand TPT's play at all. I can only explain it by TPT being a newbie and not really that interested in the game, not even interested enough to play it the way that gives him the best chance of winning. This could explain him leaving so suddenly too, but this speculation isn't really verifiable so it's just a mystery.

You mentioned length. How the fuck does me writing a short post have anything to do with lurking? I just manage to avoid writing like nuriens, but everyone should, because nuriens is a perfect example of what to avoid in mafia.

Just a comment from the sidelines, but you really just pop in with catchy one liners and you don't post that much content at times. You don't have to post like nureins, just something in between. Give enough content, and don't word it longer than necessary.

I'm really getting tired of this bullshit. You know *nothing* about my playstyle, so I don't want to here shit about my "methods" from you. Certainly not when you have no respect for any notion of fairness. It's a load of disingenuous shit that makes me tired of playing this game.

Scummy points for Simenon. Where did Cass mention play style in that quote? Anyway, Simenon, you take it way too personally (as in your play style versus your performance in this game) and your outburst deflects from what Cass was trying to say. Cass simply means that you shouldn't avoid discussion in fear of making the thread too long. And you just burst out. This isn't even a defense against what Cass said. It's just completely pointless.

If you get tired playing the game, it's your fault and not other people's. It's not game related so don't mention it here.

[sirdanilot]

Quote butchery.

Nureins is still scum.

And how did this post contribute at all.

[sirdanilot]

FoS Darox B

. The only thing you do is pop in and say that nureins is scummy.

Why

is he scummy? Also, I like the fact that you took over your predecessor's popping-in style.

I still think Ythill is the best lynch today, though. He was very scummy day 1 ('hahaha whatever scum', not adressing my proper defenses, slippery voting style towards the end) and I haven't really seen otherwise day 2 yet.

[sirdanilot]

I still think Ythill is the best lynch today, though. He was very scummy day 1 (1. 'hahaha whatever scum', 2. not adressing my proper defenses, 3. slippery voting style towards the end) and I haven't really seen otherwise day 2 yet.

1. Still feeling the sting from my needling?

Sting? What sting? Are you implying that 'hahaha whatever scum'

hurt

me? I think it hurt you more, to be honest, it was the final drop that made me suspect you enough to vote you, and I have not regretted it ever since.

2. Proper defenses? You came out on the bottom end of that. It was only your claim that saved you. Don't get cocky, the amnesty will not last forever.

Bad, bad, bad. You did not even reply to this accusation, just stating that you 'won'. Guess what, if you'd be town, it wouldn't be about winning (at least, not little arguments like these), it'd be about finding scum.

Ythill is the play today, ladies and gentlemen.

3. There was nothing "slippery" about my votes. I explained them fully. They only

seem

suspicious because pacman was scum.

I did not take the fact that pacman's scum in my accusations.

You were pushing to lynch me, I claimed, you vote someone else, you see 'pacman won't get lynched', you hammer the other bandwagon. Why wouldn't you stick with the player you suspected the most (besides the claimed doctor that is).

Now, I'll state this again, pretending you knew pacman was your partner (which you do!). You were pushing to vote a towny, towny claimed, you bus scum partner, you see that another bandwagon on towny is growing, you decide to stop bussing and hammer.

Pretty big difference, but same outcome; it makes you look scummy.

vote Ythill

. We found pacman's partner, people.

--
And something not game related:

With nuriens "pleasing Ythill" and calling our fight a love affair and me going down on his scum meter... and now kuribo's latest offer... I'd say it's more homoerotic than emotional.

haha

[sirdanilot]

Also, if you think Ythill was bussing pacman, you're high, since he laid a case out explaining why pacman was town.

Go sit in your failure corner.

Oh, yes he did, but when and where, and why did he vote him if he did?

If he did it before my claim, then it just makes him flipping to pacman after my claim more suspicious.

If he did it after my claim, then why the hell did he vote pacman?

Actually, I don't want you to answer for Ythill, let him defend himself.

---

Also, people, this game is getting a little bit too personal here. We shouldn't call each other 'shit players', 'dumb' or 'failure' and what not. It's a game. Let's all just stay civilized people, mkay? You may criticize people's play styles if you want to, but people shouldn't say 'you're a bad player' or 'you fail' or stuff like that.

[sirdanilot]

Sirdan is the most frustrating player I've ever had to read.

Why thank you. Now, if you'd like to reply to my accusation of you a page back, I'd be completely satisfied. Or at least tell me that you've read it.

I was about to ask you 'why am I frustrating to read' but then I remembered that you don't back up statements, so I decided not to.

Maybe you should try succeeding if you don't want your failure pointed out?

And how is this game related, helpful or pro-town in any way?

Kuribo, could you please stop throwing shit at people and start playing the game again, like you were doing day 1.

[sirdanilot]

Kuribo, could you please stop throwing shit at people and start playing the game again, like you were doing day 1.

How is it not playing the game to point out that you're making a ridiculous and flawed argument?

And why do you say things like 'you fail ' instead of 'your argument is flawed'?

Let's stop this discussion, since this won't get anywhere.

[sirdanilot]

Why thank you. Now, if you'd like to reply to my accusation of you a page back, I'd be completely satisfied. Or at least tell me that you've read it.

I've read it, but I'm not going to argue it, because you don't have the ability to argue effectively.

Ahahahah. This is just so utterly bad and wrong, it's actually not even funny anymore. I hope everybody sees this, and realizes how ridiculous this is.

Bad, bad, bad. You did not even reply to this accusation, just stating that you 'won'.

The accusation was that I failed to respond to your "proper defenses." My response (and my opinion all along) was that there weren't any.

The rest of your accustaions are a repetition of Goat's and I've already responded to him (twice). No point in repeating it here. I wonder at the convenient timing of your smokescreen attempt.

You ignored my post. Again. You keep ripping one liners out of context and ignore my valid points against you. This is not a good way to argue, you will not find scum with it. It's a good tactic for scum, though. Oh wait, there's one flaw in that: YOU GOT CAUGHT.

Ok, no deadline = good. Was some jerk asking for one?

2nd, Nureins needs to die. I'm not convinced he is scum, but he still needs to die.

Why would you even consider lynching someone of whom you don't think is scum, over anyone even slightly scummier?

Simenon should not be lynched.

Why? I think he's pretty scummy, I had some tells on him day 1 and now the part in this very post.

Jahudo and Ythill? Meh. Nureins makes a better lynch.

Why? ; Why?

Darox is going to die.

Why, and how?

Ecto, you managed to throw around a lot of crap without giving any reasoning behind it. I understand that you can't write a big pbpa or something in your current RL situation, but this is just not enough at all.

-----------------
As for the recent debate on nureins, I just suspect other people (ythill, simenon) way more than him. They emit many scumtells, but the biggest reason to vote them is probably that they avoid arguments. Ythill blatantly cuts out large parts of posts that don't suit him, and Simenon either simply ignores people who accuse him, he pretends to feel personally offended or something and starts using all sorts of things that aren't game related (claiming the person doesn't know his play style, when they just pointed out a scum tell) or blatantly refuses to argue (you are unable to argue effectively).

-----------------
The general quality of this game is going down. People refuse to argue with each other (Ythill, simenon and others), they utter statements like 'x is scum' without giving any reasoning behind it, like Darox and Ectomancer (and they avoid arguments when this is pointed out) and there are ad hom attacks in some places (nureins, kuribo to some extent).

Let's make the game more fun to play, people. If someone accuses you, defend yourself. If that person uses craplogic, point out the craplogic. If you suspect someone, back it up, and don't resort to ad hom attacks.

[sirdanilot]

sirdan, why do you accuse Ythill of avoiding arguments when nureins does the exact same in a roundabout and verbose way?

That's indeed a rather interesting point, if you'd make a clear, not hard to read case on nureins showing enough of evidence that shows that behaviour, that would be helpful to the town I think. You don't have to show every instance of him doing this, but just organize it in a clear way.

I think there's a fundamental difference though; whatever I do, Ythill will not reply to the parts he skipped, even if I repost them a thousand times. Whereas nureins may avoid a question with smart wording (although that still remains to be seen), I think that it'd be somehow possible to squeeze an answer out of him. But if you can disprove this point as well (I could imagine something like circular reasoning), be my guest. You'll need to be very convincing though, since I am pretty confident with my vote on Ythill, as well as my suspicion on Simenon.

Kuribo, what do you think about Ythill and simenon avoiding real debate with me? Do you agree that they are indeed doing this or not, and why? Do you recognize the same pattern in avoiding (not the way they do it, of course, but when and how often) in these two as in nureins?

[sirdanilot]

Here's one example from the early beginning:

@ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?

I was simulposting at the same time you wrote this...and you can see there all my answers. This is Spain, I hope you dont pretend me to write at 4 a.m.

Now during the day I can be active answering from time to time some posts. And at the morning I can do a big one as I did today...

Now time to work. Enjoy the day...

For starters, he says he was simulposting at the time Ythill wrote his post. Ythill's post came in four hours before nureins'. How long did it take him to write the post?

And, if you read the preceding posts, 104 and 105, you see that he really DIDN'T answer Ythill's question, "Do you find me scummy?"

He does, however, toss an FOS onto TPT and say that he doesn't want the poor little guy to feel pressured.

This is a good argument, that's indeed a scum tell for nureins.

This is shortly before he votes Simenon. Is the scumteam intimidated by Sim?

Not sure what you mean with this.

Want another example? Sure!

When I said you wouldn't take a stand, it had nothing to do with you not voting. It had everything to do with your extensive use of qualifying phrases. Good townies are not afraid to be wrong and, especially since English is not your first language, I'd think you understand the power of qualifiers to make a statement ambivalent.

This is a funny argument. Before voting someone for his writting style, I would have take a read to some of his posts in other games...obviously, you didnt.

Other things I find suspicious: basing your current case on theory disagreements, ]suspicion growing against Sim while his tells have been showing more town than scum, suddenly both taking a stance and making a vote in answer to my accusation, and buddying to Cass.

1. theory disagreements ?? my initial suspicion is based on simenon's intervention in tpt vs ythill.
2. suspicion came into a vote. Why do you think later on he has gone a lot up ? Cass already unvoted him...and I could do the same or not depending on the existence of a better suspect...
3. FALSE. READ MY POST. I WAS ANSWERING POSTS ONE BY ONE. IF I WERE SCUM I WOULDNT USE SUCH RIDICULOUS STRATEGY TO HIDE A VOTE, DONT U THINK ?
But obviously, you havent read my posts very carefully, just you jumped over me the same way you jumped when I mentioned you the first time...too many quick votes for someone who is reluctant to cast votes in the beginning.

At least you could have used Ectomancer's arguments, which were incorrect but credibe (oh, ectomancer, am I claiming your authority again ? now it sounds more like authority, not like townie-reading, haha)

OMGUS vote:

UNVOTE. VOTE: Ythill

Here he is, by his own admission engaging in attempting to minimize what Ythill says about him. (And tosses in a pointless / blatant / self-admitted OMGUS)

Well yeah, that omgus was bad. Anyway:
1. He says he didn't base his vote on theory disagreements. I don't see how this is evasive, it's just an I-didn't defense.
2. Here, nureins' response is indeed evasive. When I read it, I get the idea 'he is saying something, but what does he mean and what does it have to do with the question'.
3. What has this statement got to do with Ythill's question.

So yes, Kuribo, I more or less get your point here.

The accusation is right there. Where it says: "you haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it". You might argue saying that cass' quote is just a stylish FoS, but why say it? everyone should be looking at everyone's behavior, there's no need to say it again.

Andy, you have gone back only until post 118 (by Cass). Please go back until post 115 (by Simenon), in which he is the first that assumes someone has accused him. He says explicitly, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE BACKTRACKED (If i remember correctly). Before 115, No Cass word was saying he did, just saying stating someone is town without any reasoning allows someone to hide a lot of intentions and modify later in whatever direction, and therefore, it is not useful for town but only for scum...

OMGUS vote

Admitting to OMGUS is one of the most antitown attitudes.

I am completely sure that you are able to understand the difference between an OMGUS attitude and someone who "announces" that the following vote can be labelled (only because of formalism) as an OMGUS' vote according to the definition...

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

I'm not against pressure wagons, but I want to know:

@nureins: if you wanted to see a pressure wagon on me, why didn't you vote (I'm not within quicklynch, I hope)?

For two reasons. The first, that I had a clear objective, so my vote is casted accordingly. The second, that Ectomancer is yet dealing with his pressure on me, and I do not want him to get lost in the forest with a vote on someone who is just in my scumeter because of absence of posts. So I kindly "asked" to people to start this wagon (and probably Cass who believes that Im town, accepted the invitation).

I do not think you are in quicklynch at all, but Id like to see more words (in this forum, in this game, about this game ) from you to end up forming an opinion.

When called out on the OMGUS vote, he downplays it.


Jesus Christ, I could keep going, but I don't want to grow old sitting here at this computer.

I am not really agreeing with you here. Nureins says he meant the 'OMGUS vote' statement more or less sarcastic, in that he meant his vote could be read as an omgus vote. Is this a valid defense? No, since it's WIFOM and he didn't make it very clear he didn't mean it as announcing a true omgus vote, but I don't see how this falls under avoiding a question.

So yes, kuribo, nureins avoids questions, not in all these instances, but in most of them, however, I still don't really see a very good reason to vote him over Ythill yet.

[sirdanilot]

Sirdan, who did you protect last night?

Kuribo.

Kuribo is confirmed vanilla townie, Jah's claim would be a ridiculous lie so we should believe him for now, which means Cass is also a mason.

Hush, don't jump to conclusions too fast, Ythill.

Darox, the claimed RB, did not block sirdan so sirdan is looking like the doc.

Fair enough.

So far, it looks like we need to hang Sim, Goat, or Ecto.

I'm leaning towards sim personally.

Sirdan should be able confirm that I am either the last scum or the tracker, because otherwise I would not know his target.

So yeah you guessed my target right, that gives us a good reason to think you are town but it doesn't 100% confirm you as town. You're not cleared yet, but not nearly my top suspect anymore.

I'd like to mention that I kinda gave a hint that I'd protect kuribo (I said that in retrospect he might have been a better choice somewhere beginning day 2). Don't ask me why I gave that hint, it wasn't intentional, but it mean that we can't consider Ythill clear. Also, there's such a thing as a mafia tracker. There was a mafia watcher too, and yes this is mod WIFOM but just throwing the possibility out there.

Also, dear scum, why did you not kill a claimed doc, you let me live twice in a row! My body was supposed to be rotten away already, you know.

[sirdanilot]

Then you're my top suspect together with simenon.

But let's wait until the last two claim.

[sirdanilot]

I don't think there are two roleblockers. So yeah, I think simenon is scum.

I'm about to vote, but we should let ecto claim first.

[sirdanilot]

I'm leaning towards lynching sim and following goat's plan, currently.

[sirdanilot]

So I guess that we can choose between darox or simenon today.

Throughout the day, Simenon has been playing scummy, not contributing, not answering questions, posting one-liners. However, nhat/Darox B was a lurker. He only posted from time to time, and voted with little reasoning and didn't really agree with anyone. Same with darox day 2.

So yeah, I haven't really decided yet, I'd be willing to hammer any one of these two.

[sirdanilot]

Ythill shouldn't be tracking me. I am confirmed, and Ythill tracking me again will not say anything about him either.

I don't see how Ythill tracking me prevents him from doing a night kill? Can't you use your scum nk ability and your scum power role ability at the same time?

Not sure who else Ythill should be tracking, but I do think that the first day 4 post should be an ythill post stating his results.

[sirdanilot]

Usually, no. This can vary from mod to mod, but most of the time it's one action per night. Forcing Ythill to target you would mean he has to use his tracker role on you otherwise he will get caught. Generally, this would also prevent him from making a NK if he's scum. If we don't force him to target you, he can submit a NK. Then tomorrow he could claim to have tracked a player who didn't make a night action (myself, Kuribo, masons) and get away with it.

It will confirm his tracker role, but not his alignment. There's such a thing as a scum tracker, you know. I think it would be better if Ythill tracked someone else tonight. As for the NK, let's ask our mod.

Also, I'd imagine our mod will not answer this question if we ask him.

Probably not, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it?

MOD: CAN A SCUM POWER ROLE NK IF THEY USE THEIR POWER THAT SAME NIGHT?

[sirdanilot]

Ok, good. Ythill, next time, don't go 'hahaha whatever scum' please. Thank you.

[sirdanilot]

I'll explain some things of my play.

When I replaced in: I reread the game. Thing is, I do not like rereading, and at some point, I just wasn't motivated enough to completely read everything. I caught myself glancing over some things, but I tried to read as much as I can. In the future, I won't replace into games with this many pages any more, since it is just too much trouble for me to re read everything.

I didn't pick up any scum tells from anyone, I'm not that good at picking them up so I decided to just post a weak case against Goatrevolt. It made me realize that Goatrevolt was probably not scum. So yeah then came Ythill with his 'haha whatever scum' and I thought that was very scummy. So actually, I feel that I played really badly this game, but at least town won so that's a consolation.

Now, the most important part, my fakeclaim. I figured that there would be no real doc. I was doubting wether to claim doc or one shot. Now, I was really about to get lynched, and I really didn't think that I would survive if I claimed one-shot. I figured that they would see that I was one shot when I died (I thought that claimed docs always died?) n1, and I didn't protect anyone. Then, I saw I survived. Woops. I was thinking and thinking about what to claim. A real doc would always protect, and I knew that I would've been lynched day 2 if I changed my claim into one shot, so I just decided to claim to have protected Ecto. Maybe not the most pro-town move, but at least it turned out pretty well.

N2 I protected kuribo. I was convinced he was town (no scum would advocate the lynch of two of his partners) and also that he could've been a target for scum. Then, I survived again... I was cleared, so I could've claimed one shot, but I didn't. Firstly, it wasn't necessary (they didn't assume that I protected ecto), secondly, I had a huge nk target on my back, and I was basically a normal towny, and I felt fine having that target on my back.

So yeah, sorry for playing so horribly, but I learned a lot from this game and we won. Kuribo was clearly the mvp. I feel simenon played really bad, why wouldn't you just reply to my accusations. I get majorly annoyed by that. And well, Ythill goes without saying . I hope this shows to you that 'haha whatever scum' doesn't help you to catch scum.