Mini Normal 2169 : random facts, game over !

[bob3141]

VOTE: piisirrational

There is nothing irrational about something being irrational

[bob3141]

BM scum?

Nope, not me dude. I am the most vanilla of vanilla townie towns you ever did see.

I hate it when people claim a role in rvs. It gives people a townie first impression and I hate it. +100 scumpoints for u

I'm baffled. You think claiming vanilla town on Page 1 is gonna get me towncred? gimme a break man...

Take your scumpoints and stick em somewhere sensible.

No kit kat for you

Vannila townies only get vannilla ice cream

[bob3141]

meh if I can't prove it with my nonexistent town games, u can't prove anything with them either

nah u deserve the scumpoints. u seem pretty scummy

What motivation do you think battlemage would have to make such a claim so soon after the game started. I just can't see how it could be alignment indicative.

Ok it might not be a great move and maybe slightly anti-town potential but scummy.

[bob3141]

BM scum?

Nope, not me dude. I am the most vanilla of vanilla townie towns you ever did see.

I hate it when people claim a role in rvs. It gives people a townie first impression and I hate it. +100 scumpoints for u

I'm baffled. You think claiming vanilla town on Page 1 is gonna get me towncred? gimme a break man...

Take your scumpoints and stick em somewhere sensible.

No kit kat for you

Vannila townies only get vannilla ice cream

I don't always get the chance to say this Bob, as I always die Night 1, but I love you, and respect you. You are probably the most under-rated town player on this whole website.

whats with everyone of late trying to jinx me.

Shame last game you died before i even got into the game. I was like oh day one has started. The next day how is it already night 1.

[bob3141]

meh if I can't prove it with my nonexistent town games, u can't prove anything with them either

nah u deserve the scumpoints. u seem pretty scummy

What motivation do you think battlemage would have to make such a claim so soon after the game started. I just can't see how it could be alignment indicative.

Ok it might not be a great move and maybe slightly anti-town potential but scummy.

TSTBS and LAMIST is what I was trying to say he might be doing

I get the latter one but what does the first acronym actualy mean. Ive have rough idea, im right in thinking its to do with bs

[bob3141]

battle mage based on 90

Since you dont like lying and would tell us the truth when ever asked.

Are you scum?

[bob3141]

but ok, if you didn't know the difference, what did you mean in 74 by calling my behaviour anti-town?

Dropping a vote without backing it up with reasons/evidence is definitely antitown behavior imo. It means ur not willing to even try to support it and convince others its right which makes me think u dont believe it urself. The only people that would be that sure who the scums are would be the scums themselves especially at this stage in the game

So what makes you think battlemage has to be scum due to him as you say. Making a vote based on little evidence.

Ok at this stage any votes bound are to be weak but what makes you think that it must be indication that he is scum. Rather than maybe for instance if you are town, simply another townie pushing a read.

[bob3141]

BM is basically only focusing on me and ngl that strikes me as pretty scummy considering I'm prolly one of the newest players in general in this game and I definitely strike most people as LHF first impression. Tunneling this early into the game is just a huge scumtell imo.

VOTE: Battle Mage

His entire play so far has been fluff and tunneling Noraa. There has been zero other content

are you talking about yourself in the third person and quoting your own posts to make it seem like you have friends backing you up, and you can get momentum behind a BM wagon?

only ceaser is allowed to talk about themselves in the 3rd person. lol

Noraa if you keep as BM says talking about yourself in the 3rd person. You will have to do it all game as punishment.

[bob3141]

Battlemage im just not getting noraa stances. Both you and datisi are voting for her yet she is finding you scummy and datisi only null. I would have thought that if she would find you both scummy.


At first I thought her accusations of backerless votes were pointed at you. As that were most of her pushs have been directed. Over a simple vt claim only a few hours into the game. But i dont get why she would find datisi initially scum but then null.


-------


Noraa did you find battlemages vote on you scummy or is your read on him still based allot on battlemages initial vt claim. And why do you think datisi is only null for following the vote of a person you think is scummy.

[bob3141]

All Datisi did was vote without giving a reason. Thats at most a little antitown/scummy. I dont see why I am expected to SR him after slightly Fosing him over that. Bm on the other hand I do find scummy. The tunneling is definitely not a good look imo. Whoever said that I should find both Datisi and BM scummy, I dont see why encouraging OMGUSing is a good thing...

So what do you think the motivation of battlemages vote on you then is. As you say datisi vote on you inst inherently scummy. So if you don't think any votes on you by themselves stands out as scummy. As you cant find datisi vote not scummy and battlemages scummy. Although you could find one player scummy and the other null.

So what makes you think battlemages reaction to you pushing him for as you say making an anti town reaction. Can't possibly come from town and so must be scum. Rather than as I said earlier just another townie in your view.


Do you not think town could make such a move even if you might consider it a very poor action.

[bob3141]

VOTE: shelly

HMMMMMMMMM
what if menal is scum

So do you think menal is scum or not. Your earlier posts talk about a guy read on menal with later ones talking about how you think menal is fence sitting. If I'm reading post 431 correctly.


As menal does not appear to me to be fence-sitting in that post you quoted. It just looks like a fellow townie that has seen something that has two explanations and is trying to sort which is the more likely case.

So not exactly sure how you could go for gut town reading menal to entertaining the possibility of menal being scum.

So do you still believe in your gut menal town read?

[bob3141]

So do you think menal is scum or not. Your earlier posts talk about a guy read on menal with later ones talking about how you think menal is fence sitting. If I'm reading post 431 correctly.


As menal does not appear to me to be fence-sitting in that post you quoted. It just looks like a fellow townie that has seen something that has two explanations and is trying to sort which is the more likely case.

So not exactly sure how you could go for gut town reading menal to entertaining the possibility of menal being scum.

So do you still believe in your gut menal town read?

My gut thinks menalque is town
Logic believes menalque is scum

the classic dilemma
I was trying to entertain counterfactuals for once (my weakness as either alignment) and I'm still trying to sort them

So your saying you're having trouble reconciling the two. So if you are town why do you think your gut is saying town, while your logic is saying menal must be scum.

[bob3141]

So far BM's the scummiest person here. I see his SR on me as trying to set up some easy limbait since I hear I tend to give off that first impression. Ofc we are still technically kinda in rvs so this is a fairly weak read but ye I will be putting this here for future reference of what I was thinking 3 pages into the game. First impressions can often help town find the scums so I'm not too sure if I found one but we'll see

I feel greatly bullied here btw
y'all tunnel hard
accuse me of using AtE if u wish. In a way it is asking u to stop tunneling this hard

The reason is that town is going to let the other scums do whatever tf they want.

Why is this a bad thing tho, we still get a scum for the trouble and we can worry about sorting the others later if this is TvS

my point is that we also need to be keeping an eye out for the other scums. I, for one want a BM lim today since I am literally so certain those aggressive pushes dont come from town. But I think while we are doing this, we should be keeping an eye out for the other scums.

to elaborate a bit on my read - nora right now is doing exactly to bm what they are accusing bm of doing to others. the hypocrisy is not lost. i don't see nora vs bm as TvT but right now I'm null on BM and scumreading nora, and i absolutely think this could be an SvS bussing episode.
i'm slightly confused as to why town would be this confident in a read that they have developed in the first few hours of the game? if you're THIS confident that BM is scum, then simply voting them and removing them (without "keeping an eye out" for the other scum) would give town a massive leg up. i'm looking at nora as potential scum, and i'm looking at BM as a potential scumpartner. piisirrational is looking pretty good to me right now, although i will acknowledge that i am biased towards analyzers/gamesolvers so i'm putting him as a null, maybe a slight townlean. although menalque is kinda annoying me with their posting frequency, i'm townleaning them because they seem at least a little bit genuine about trying to read the BM/Nora bandwagon. no one else has enough substance to be read right now.

to respond to #224 - no it didn't; most players haven't posted anything substantial yet.

I'm not really seeing the svs vibes between battlemage v nora. They both seem pretty adamant in their claimed belief that the other is scum. Now I feel it's not impossible but it does look pretty unlikely as the flow of conversation was quite quick. For the nora v BM to be some WIFOM to make us think that they couldn't possibly partnered with each other.

[bob3141]

Im feeling a slight lean town lean on golden, as if golden was partnered with either of bm or noraa i just dont think he would come in and push the fresh idea that they are just scum getting in early bussing.

Especially after choosing to vote for the one with the largest wagon. Of the two players he has stated as being svs. And not only that but a fourth vote on the first wagon. An ice breaker often done by town.

[bob3141]

yay 8 pages

okay here's where were at now

Mena - town
Datisi - townread
TGP - strong town lean
bob, alonzo - town lean
Icon
BM - nulltown BUT if noraa is scum moves up to same level as TGP

Teacher - null
iaaun

pii - scumlean
noraa -- down here but I haven't actually reread her posts to try to deal with the question of newb!town or newb!scum, willing to listen to other takes on this, rn I'm happy to go with my initial impressions
Taylor - scum
shelly

I dont like this slot either anymore. Seems like they benefit the most from the BmvNoraa

dont know if this quote migth get messed up. Dont know why playesr cant split their posts with different quotes up



Noora do you still think BM is scum?

As you seem to imply that bm is town here by saying that menal benifited from the BmvNora. Do you think they are partneres as thats the only explanation I can think of why you would think menal would have benifited.

[bob3141]

And you also talk about bm giving you scum pings in that same post. Nora if you do think they are partners, talk me through it as im not getting that feeling.

[bob3141]

VOTE: shelly

i dont like that menal and datisi townread each other and then proceed to put themselves on opposing sides of what seems at this point to be a TvT shitfight.

Taylor how do you feel about your shelly vote now. Since you cast it before shelly even posted, so i'm assuming it was a rvs vote. But since then shelly has posted and a wagon has resulted with your vote being the first.

shellyc (4) : Tayl0r Swift ; Menalque ; Datisi ; TheGoldenParadox


Do you still consider your vote on shelly to be a rvs vote?



Also what do you think of the fact that menal and datisi are both now on that wagon with you. As you raised something about how you didnt like how they townread each other yet were on opposite sides of the noraa v bm.

[bob3141]

Im feeling a slight lean town lean on golden, as if golden was partnered with either of bm or noraa i just dont think he would come in and push the fresh idea that they are just scum getting in early bussing.

Especially after choosing to vote for the one with the largest wagon. Of the two players he has stated as being svs. And not only that but a fourth vote on the first wagon. An ice breaker often done by town.

Golden is a townlean because he isn't scum with Noraa? eh, I don't know man, needs a re-think. Noraa and me is either T v S, or T v T. In either case, scum benefit from pushing the S v S agenda to guarantee at least 1 mislynch, if not two.

Golden is a townlean because he isn't scum with Noraa? eh, I don't know man, needs a re-think. Noraa and me is either T v S, or T v T. In either case, scum benefit from pushing the S v S agenda to guarantee at least 1 mislynch, if not two


I'm leaning towards it being tvt. My gut keeps telling me that noraa is just a fellow townie who has made a bad early push. Certainly the possibility that its tvs as noraas push was rather scummy. But the fact she didn't try and back track on her push on you. Even when she was asked why she thought it was scummy rather than just anti-town. She continued to push a set of reads on you that ultimately stemmed from that flawed premises.

[bob3141]

im terriable at make quotes somethign always goes wrong

[bob3141]

So if i'm right on norra. Then based on the fact that golden jumped on norra with a brief initial post, pushing noraa up to e-3. Although shortly later he did elaborate.


This is something I find is done more by town than scum. Although if i'm wrong on nora being a fellow townie. Then that does undermine that aspect of the read. As simply I've only seen one scum wagon reach 4 in rvs and the 4th vote was that player's partner.

[bob3141]

So if i'm right on norra. Then based on the fact that golden jumped on norra with a brief initial post, pushing noraa up to e-3. Although shortly later he did elaborate.

This is something I find is done more by town than scum. Although if i'm wrong on nora being a fellow townie. Then that does undermine that aspect of the read. As simply I've only seen one scum wagon reach 4 in rvs and the 4th vote was that player's partner.

er, not sure i get the first part? like why is golden being town for jumping on noraa wagon dependant on noraa being town?

pedit: lol battle mage, never had VTs memeclaim roles only to then have actual PRs counterclaim them? you're missing out man

It's a town lean based on the fact I don't feel that scum would jump on nora if she was in town that way at that point of the wagon. It was the first wagon to form and was pretty much still within rvs. Even if it wasn't even based on rvs votes.

And more often than not that first wagon is in fact all town with it being on town more often than scum.

Don't think i have ever seen scum jump onto that 4th spot. Especially not with their first vote that also inst a rvs Vote. As Well as being their first post in the game.

However, when that first wagon is scum I don't seem to hold back as much. Only seen one scum wagon in rvs and that was bussed quickly in that fourth spot. So dont know how true it holds for scum wagons.

And since i'm leaning toward Noraa being town on balance I think golden is likely town if i'm right on nora.

[bob3141]

be on after lunch. goign to start catching up now

[bob3141]

Who knows what about Bob?

Anyone played against him before?

you have. it was in awful 21p large that went on for ever. You got lynched day 2 after we pushed each other. So you got spared teh 6 day nights. The 2 days for a flip.

We ended up losing as the rest of town decided to lynch obvous town over obvous scum. Though flav woudl have still won as every one beleived his doc claim due to teh machos

[bob3141]

Bob what's your read on Alonzo?

Alonzo at the moment your still largely null to me as ive not seen much from you.

The vast majority of your posts have been directed at noraa. A player you have claimed to have had a town read. Which is read i agree with. Although I disagree with your stance on bm as it just feels like town bm. As it just feels like he is feeling confident after having all his reads in his last few town games be bang on.


Apart from that you all you seem to have done is say you think menal scummy but not why. Be a bit toxic to golden. Where you called him noob so im assuming you think he is town.

[bob3141]

And since i'm leaning toward Noraa being town on balance I think golden is likely town if i'm right on nora.

I see your explanation for this, and I agree on principle with the 4th vote logic. I just dont buy the part that has it depending on Noraa's alignment. Maybe its just personal history with the early lol-wagon, but I find the later lol-wagon votes to be townie, regardless of the target's alignment. Scum dont want that kind of attention.

A town wagon and scum wagon behave differently in my experience. Although i have low data points for scum lolwagons. As the only one I have is from mini normal a while back. Where scum jumped on their buddy after it had picked up its 3rd vote. With it then getting a 5th from town.

So if i was wrong noraa in that respect of the read, golden being the 4th vote wouldn't be ai.

I just don't see scum jumping onto noraa pushing a read that required at that point both to be scum. With his first post at that. Rather than pushing that there must be at least one scum in the two of them. With him pushing noraa yes but also being open to bm being scum.

As his reasoning for them being svs was itself flawed. As I can't see any signs that noraa v bm is svs. With me feeling it's more likely tvt.

[bob3141]

Taylor-directed post

I dont really like this post and line of thought at someone who hasnt been here, I dont think? Like obviously she hasnt thought about her vote/whether or not it is still RVS/the wagon comp, ya? So why is the tone of this seemingly attacking rather than "so what do you make of that"?

Do you not feel like its a valid question for her when she does come back. Her vote is currently on the leading wagon. Which is just ahead of the wagon that grew shortly after the shelly wagon formed.

[bob3141]

uhh yeah this post scumpings hard wth
this is basically textbook manipulation VOTE: shelly

golden with this opportunistic wagon hopping

im not getting limmed today, you are

I don't quite see what you mean by opportunistic wagon hopping. Golden comes in with a read that he thinks noraa vs bm is actually svs. So at the point of the nora vote he claims to have scum read on both. And then later he says that he sees Nora as newb town. When he moves his vote to the other player he player he scum read at that point.

And his 3rd vote to you. Do you see all the votes as opportunistic or just the one on you. As that's the vote with least progression before it aswell as the one you quoted.

What i dont get is why the first thing you would think of is that he is being opportunistic. Maybe if it had pushed to l-1 or giving intent on that small post. But l-3 does feel like bit of exaggeration when its only pushed you to l-3. A point its sat at for the last day.

Forgetting that you claiming that you beleive the nature of his vot was opportunistic. what do you think of his read on you?

[bob3141]

Battlemage can you make your posts a little less blocky

It makes me read every line simultaneously

[bob3141]

uhh yeah this post scumpings hard wth
this is basically textbook manipulation VOTE: shelly

golden with this opportunistic wagon hopping

im not getting limmed today, you are

I don't quite see what you mean by opportunistic wagon hopping. Golden comes in with a read that he thinks noraa vs bm is actually svs. So at the point of the nora vote he claims to have scum read on both. And then later he says that he sees Nora as newb town. When he moves his vote to the other player he player he scum read at that point.

And his 3rd vote to you. Do you see all the votes as opportunistic or just the one on you. As that's the vote with least progression before it aswell as the one you quoted.

What i dont get is why the first thing you would think of is that he is being opportunistic. Maybe if it had pushed to l-1 or giving intent on that small post. But l-3 does feel like bit of exaggeration when its only pushed you to l-3. A point its sat at for the last day.

Forgetting that you claiming that you beleive the nature of his vot was opportunistic. what do you think of his read on you?

you wanna join me on Golden today, and you pick the flip tomorrow?

My gut keeps telling me that he is town. He does feel opportunistic as he keeps jumping into the most high profile points of a wagon. With the only higher bits being l-1 and hammer

He came in without rvs and rushed into with a 4th slot vote that pushed noraa to l-3. Although little reasoning behind it at the time with 30 mins he had elaborated on his reasoning. I don't get if he was scum why there would be such a delay. Surely if he was scum he would have made them together. As it's not like he was near the prod time. If he was scum and he needed time to come up with a reason for his read. Wouldn't he have just posted the vote 30 mins later instead. Feels to me like hasty town.

[bob3141]

Each game varies. Depends largely on player list and the time zones of those players

[bob3141]

The place i first started playing mafia you would get some players that would posts once or twice a week. There would be that little that the days often got extended by an extra 14 days. Making a day last 30 days.

[bob3141]

b
yoink

[bob3141]

is this the top

[bob3141]

If you want a TL;DR of the above, it's basically:

Townleans: Battle Mage
Scumleans: Noraa, Menalque
Nulls: Everyone else

So are these still your reads? what do you think of the game since you last posted. As far you ahve only made 4 posts even if one was on the longer side

[bob3141]

Shelly do you still think both golden and nooraa are scum?

As your voting for taylor over two of your scum reads. Although you voted for taylor you did say you wanted to pressure her at the time. So what do you think of taylors catch up?

[bob3141]

zzz about to crash but quick thoughts

looking at a {shelly, ico, x} scumteam rn but i think that flipping shelly and observing their interactions will be super helpful. if shelly flips scum i'm confident in ico!scum as well and if shelly flips town i'd go to a TL on ico

why does town!shelly imply town!ico?

good question, and one that i spent a decent bit of time thinking about. i'll try to give a more logic based answer to this later, but i'm leaning towards ico and shelly being the same alignment just based off shelly's following of ico and ico's almost working with shelly. that being said, scum!ico might just be trying to pocket town!shelly, so it gives ico a handful of townpoints i'll need to see the shelly/ico interaction later today.
that being said, i'm almost confident on scum!shelly proving scum!ico and vice versa; i'm not the only one who thinks so?

I'm not getting the same feeling that they are the same alignment. As they have had alot of interaction for it to be svs. And at the moment I'm leaning towards shelly being scum.

Whenever I look at the progression of the vote counts. I see the rvs wagon break up. And a wagon form on shelly. Yet pretty quickly we start seeing a new wagon at taht point. We have the one that formed on you

TheGoldenParadox (3) : Iconeum ; iamausername ; Battle Mage

With a smaller taylor wagon started by shelly. Yet the shelly wagon has remained stalled. Normally a town player being wagoned would have taken of by now and not formed smaller counter wagons


And of the shelly wagon the only player that i feel is still null is taylor. Menal and datisi are coming across like their prior town games I've had with them. And I just can't see your entry to the game being sucm indicative.

Yet the wagon hasn't taken off yet.

[bob3141]

Also interested who Taylor , Shelly and TGP think scum on their wagon might be.

not sure as i still have to catch up on 15 pages but theres only 2 votes on me. shelly always scumreads me so thats NAI, and teacher i feel like should be able to see that im town but ??. i havent read why they voted me

I didn’t like either your entry or your absence. It was more of a pressure thing.

i mean fair i guess. its interesting that alonzo wants us to assume that there is scum on our wagon. not sure if thats scummy, it just kinda struck me as an odd way of phrasing the question. kinda makes me feel like hes scum trying to make us suspect people on our wagons who he knows are town. but i dont really have concrete reasons to think alonzo is scum, so thats prolly just me being overly tinfoily.

Seen that a few times before although sometimes it is just a townie doing it. A few games back we had an all town wagon on scum. And scum pushed that there must be scum on it. While those players were being scum read by a few. If i remember correctly we ended up mislynching another play over the scum.

And alonzo is scum reading menal if thats still the case. Would be quite understandable for him to mistrust the shelly wagon if he is town.

[bob3141]

second request that you respond to this @shelly

me changing reads to fit the situation

is my general town play really
as town I have much lower confidence in myself

also, to the points that made me reconsider, things like the reaction to ico outing the fake was kinda artificial? the push on me for essentially swimming with the tide isn’t exactly town pinging either

shelly can you explain the bold. Are you saying you changed your reads to suit your situation. As that doesnt sound like towny thing to do.

[bob3141]

bob are you already voting shelly?

going to take quick reread through taylor and shelly after i finish bing watching season 2 of ghosts on iplayer. But im heavily leaning shelly. Especially after shelly admitted to changing her reads to situation and not because she changed her mind . While trying to pass it off as a sign she town. When such an action is very scum indicative.


Im im right, i'm hoping for another hatrick. This town hunting has me on role. noir got 3 for 3. game before that 3 for 4

[bob3141]

shelly can you explain the bold. Are you saying you changed your reads to suit your situation. As that doesnt sound like towny thing to do.

not my situation
the overall game state

See that's not much difference. That is very much something scum does.

A townie might change their mind but not because of gamestate. Now the gamestate might trigger them to reevaluate. But that change isn't to suit the situation. It is just a change and often does not suit the situation. At all.

[bob3141]

situation = game-state
game-state changing = re-evaluation
why is re-evaluation scummy though

Re-evaluation isn't but you said to suit the situation. So you said that you reevaluated your reads so they suited the situation. And here you're retconning the word from situation to gamestate.

Which makes me feel your reads are not genuine and that you're shifting them to be in line with the gamestate. And not because you genuinely town read them or scum read them changed your mind on a read. Which is a type of gamestate manipulation.

[bob3141]

I still think pretty strongly that shelly is scum and think it is important that we start coalescing around a flip there

you say the wagon is moving slowly, when much of the plist are scum reading me for apparently reasons that im swimming with the tide when ANYONE THAT PAYS ATTENTION TO MY META AT ALL can realise that this is my towngame

@shelly skimming through your completed towngames (notably, newbie 2025), as well as Newbie 2019 (a scumgame), it seems like you create fluff and posture more when you're scum than when you're town; your play this game is pinging me a lot more like the latter than the former. i'll do a more thorough metadive later, but you're looking scummier the more i meta you, so i don't think your meta is saving you here.

basically all of shelly's posts on page 38 scumping me hard. i have absolutely no idea what she's trying to accomplish here but it seems a lot like she's spinning in circles and not going anywhere. the entire taylor push is weird, 943 is unhelpful and unproductive, and just generally shelly is pinging me as scum who wants to create a townbloc and sell herself as town, either by pocketing actual town or working with other scum to wifom us. i'm happy with my vote on shelly, and i think shelly is a good d1 lynch here because they have quite a few interactions with almost everyone here.

wifom. does. not. fucking. exist

can you elaborate on spinning in circles, where do you expect me to go
why do you think Taylor push is weird

do you think creating town blocks are AI?

you’re filling up spaces with words to try and miselim me

sure flip me for info but remember scum are probably on-wagon now as im pretty miselimable as town

you attacked taylor for fence sitting and calling bm/nora tvt for a really long while until you realized it wasn't in your best interest to do so until essentially flip-flopping to 943 where you do exactly what you've been calling out

do you think creating town blocks are AI?

not to steal from TGP the chance to respond but: yes. trying to create townblocs is scum indicative

creating townblocs is generally helpful for town, but it's more helpful for scum if those townblocs are forced, which this looks like to me. moreover, scum infiltrating a townbloc is much better for scum than the townbloc is for town, so i'm inclined to agree with menalque here.

menal and bob have made some really good points above this

@ico

they're explaining the general case on shelly pretty well i know you wanted to see that

Reading through her posts at times it's certainly been hard to nail down actually what her reads are. As she seemed to flip between scum reading noora, considering that she might be town after all, fully scum reading her, finding her town and then now back to scum. With norra benign on her will lynch list.


That post must be what shelly must have been trying to spin as town meta. Where she changed her read to suit the current gamestate. But also noticed that she floated the idea of nora v bm being tvt. Back before pushing taylor for saying she thought it was tvt in post 275 and scum reading her for it.

And then full comes down on it being tvt in posts you referenced. Something that she scum read taylor for. If she was town and had re-evaluated on norra vs BM. I would have thought she would have also re-evaluated her read on taylor at that point. As if shelly was town wouldn't she have had considered that taylor was just doing the same as her. And feel the need re-evaluated all her reads and not just liek appears the ones that suited her.




VOTE: Shelly

[bob3141]

how does this not break trust tell rules? what do you do when someone asks you if you're scum and you are?

Its not a trust tell as if im wrong on him and he is scum. Then he did lie about his alignment after all

a trust tell is something like a player saying they never self vote as scum. And then self vote at the start every town game

[bob3141]

Also interested who Taylor , Shelly and TGP think scum on their wagon might be.

But what do you think of the alignment of those 3 players though? And why?

As you seem to be asking them a very leading question.


I assume you read Taylor as scum as in your reads you have TS 1230 displayed at the bottom of a tier read list. Yet in the same post you have said you're deferring your read of taylor and shelly alignment to the crowd.


Although nowhere other than that can i see any clear read in your iso on taylor. A few comments here but nothing related to a read and a reason.


And in your read list i can't see shelly or tgp. With the only thing on tgp being in posts 1100. When searching tgp in your iso. All I see is you saying you don't disagree much about goldens read list. And a poor attempt at humor that feels like shade towards me. Because you didn't get an immediate post from someone asleep.

[bob3141]

What is with everyone of late rushing day one. I come back from work Friday gone.After having nearly no time to look at the thread since wednesday. And see that Shelley was quick lynched.

At Least it wasn't as bad as my last game. Where i popped in during rvs and teh next day find someone had already been lynched.

[bob3141]

dude we had 85 pages lol i wouldnt call it a rushed day, although the end was rushed yes.

It certainly is. Its not a yapping contest

[bob3141]

Bm if taylor is scum then my reads so far this game then i think you jinxed me after all.

As Taylor felt rather townie to me day one.

[bob3141]

With BM being vague it realy is hard to say. If you are town as i beleived yesterday. Then either he is scum thats making a claim he can row back from. And claim oops. Or just be a fellow towny messing up.

Forgoten how many games i had to follow the rule lynch all liars. One game it caused us to lynch 2 town. Each one claimed a guility on the other. Other game scum used insider info to fake a guilty, got the player lynched and were able to row back out fo it. By claiming a gating.

[bob3141]

With BM being vague it realy is hard to say. If you are town as i beleived yesterday. Then either he is scum thats making a claim he can row back from. And claim oops. Or just be a fellow towny messing up.

Forgoten how many games i had to follow the rule lynch all liars. One game it caused us to lynch 2 town. Each one claimed a guility on the other. Other game scum used insider info to fake a guilty, got the player lynched and were able to row back out fo it. By claiming a gating.

I'm not going to row back. If Taylor flips town, you can elim me. If there is some shenanigans like a bus driver or whatever, then so be it. It seems unlikely to me, and if we get screwed like that, I'll eat it up.

i dont understand much of the lingo in your last bit, but defer to your brilliance. Lim all liars doesn't really work for me though - I gambit all the time.

I also don't think Taylor flipping scum confirms me as town, as I'm quite capable of bussing her in that spot too.

Yep i just cant see scum faking a guility this soon into the game. Just hope its not a repeat of that game. We ended up losing as we lost 2 mislynches for 1

VOTE: talylor

[bob3141]

And i asked him if he wasnt simply gambiting There goes my top town read.

[bob3141]

I don't think it was ever as clear as scum! TS = town BM, but that vig theory makes a bit of sense

I was of the opinion he was a clear town. Would have fought tooth and nail to stop a BM lynch. No way does scum ever fake guilty like that on day 2. But more likely town, like what happened in that 21p. Where one town guilitied the other.


Plus I thought it was pretty obvious he was the mailman. Why did I ask him if he was gambiting and simply stretching what info he had.

BM why wouldn't you clarify after i told you about the disaster we had as town once.

[bob3141]

What is with everyone of late rushing day one. I come back from work Friday gone.After having nearly no time to look at the thread since wednesday. And see that Shelley was quick lynched.

why did you vote shelly if you didn't want her to be executed, bob

Are you trying to twist my words?


I saw the slot as scum so i voted. At that time i very much wanted pressure. Pressure a scummy slot and see what wagononics happen. If shelly was scum a true counter wagon would have formed on taylor. If shelly got up to l-1 and claimed pr highly likely scum. As a pr claim wouldnt have matched her ate. A vt town claim would match and make her far more likely town.


In between me being last on and her quick lynch she claims VT. A claim scum never makes in that situation. But everyone thought it would be best to have big shouting match and lynch shelly before everyone had checked in. Instead alonzo hammers.

[bob3141]

Why in the last few game sive played is everyone so eager to get to night rather than letting day one play out. Not everyone has lots of time during the working week.

[bob3141]

VOTE: teacher

here's where I'm at right now.
a NK on BM makes absolutely no sense. he was a guaranteed mislim d3. so the only a NK on him would have been reasonable is if BM's reads were so accurate that him espousing them and providing greater clarity on them d3 was not worth the mislim. bm clearly espoused his read on teacher, but had enough fluff and jumps onto noraa and such that teacher might have avoided suspicion by killing bm as opposed to letting him speak today. that hammer SCREAMED opportunistic scum looking to end the day by stifling discussion.

scum is {teacher, noraa, ??} i'm confident in teacher!scum, and you should be too.

Certainly makes sense with how quick shelly got pushed over the edge day one. If teacher was town we would have prob got tied wagons. And not a shelly quick lynch.

Just wish my time had been taken up moving furniture ready for some work in the lounge so i only had time for one post and to catch up a few pages. and not teh countless pages had built up.


VOTE: Teacher

[bob3141]

And just based on odds of 4 wagons. 2 on confirmed town, one on nora that heavily looked liek noob town after me and others questioned her. One left alive , so i think the odds are prety good

[bob3141]

catching up now. was busy yesterday helping getting the house read for plaster coming today

[bob3141]

should i claim now or after teacher?

[bob3141]

ico

[bob3141]

assuming there is a vig tho, without a single shred of credible evidence, is laughable

if you truly have to believe there is a vig just because a NK doesn't make a ton of sense TO YOU, it's just bad

had a agem once where the vig kept killing the town prs

n1 he shot backup gunsmith. so did scum
n2 he shot teh gunsmith so did scum
n3 he shot obvous town skitter. wasnt till then we had 2 nks

Shame bm got nk by scum as i have feelign he could have been confirmed day 3. with that role combo he had. No way would a scum wouldplayer have had a Miscellaneous and Role Investigation role combo.

[bob3141]

Guess i might as well claim now. never been a patient one.

Im a follower

n1 alonzo no action
n2 battlemage Miscellaneous Role Investigation

thought that alonzo hammer was suspect. Ended teh day way to early and without any intent. Instead he just lolhammered.

Visited bm to be sure that i was right on him being town. As my gut was telling me when taylor flipped green that it was going to be repeat of a50v cliff. Which ended up with 2 consecutive town lynches. If bm was town he would prob show up either no action (if scum) or if i was rigth on him Misc or misc pus something.

[bob3141]

i dont crumb. im awful at it.

Every time ive crumbed before they got spotted by scum day one. So i only crumb if i have hard result. e.g. i was backup blocker once. and i only crumbed once i spotted the nk had been blocked. so hard pushed for any roleblocker claim to be believed. As worse case if i died, then teh rolestopper would have anotehher action anyway


second from last time i crumbed the only players that spotted it was scum. next day i got run up by the entire scum team and flash lynched.
the last time the only player to spoted it was scum and i was nk.

Every time before was similar story

if I crumb i tend to die early to lynch or nk. S

[bob3141]

sounds like stalling so that u can consult with ur scum buddies before u come in and claim vt like ur other scum buddy did.

Noraa I dont get why you think ico is stalling?

If the ico says he is drunk it certainly means he isnt free.

[bob3141]

Hm ok so I feel like this, in a way clears ico and mean bc neighbors r normally prs or scums right? If one was scum, the other would've died a while back ... right?

neighbours can be any combination. just not s/s as that would defeat the point of them being put in a game. And varries games to game whether a scum in a neighbourhood would kill in their neighbourhood.

[bob3141]

Icon is noraa town or scum

Scummy town

Yep i doubt scum would actualy attack any claimed pr after claiming they thought there was to many vt.


By this point i would actualy expect a little more town power. As mins normaly lean towards being town sided.

[bob3141]

Alonzo VT
TheGoldenParadox VT
Iconeum neighbor
iamausername VT
Datisi VT
professor VT
bob3141 follower
Noraa VT
Menalque neighbor

bob, ico, and mena are confirmed town. every scum has claimed VT.

Yep i just cant see if there was scum in one of menal/ico that they would of both claimed in the way they did. Fells like the neighbour is their to counter act some of the docs gating. Actualy fells like we are light on town power though. Guess im must be use to the norm of nini normals being heavily town sided when it comes to town power

[bob3141]

unless scum has serious negative utility or a town pr isn't claiming, bob ico and mena are mechanically clear. correct me if i'm wrong, but the former seems very not in line with site meta right now, and the latter means that said town pr, unless they're playing an incredibly good gambit, is fucking over the town.

i'm leaning towards the scumteam being fairly new or inexperienced because an entire scumteam claiming vt seems like quite a poor move on their part. @menal, are you truly not able to see noraa as scum here?

anyways, limming prof seems like the move here.

As it stands we are actualy short of the normal town power.

asectic indecisive doc neighbour
neighbour
follower
mailman/miller

Which is realy only 3 pr. the second neighbour just balances out the ascetic and the indecisive

so

1
0.5
0.5+0.5
which is actualy short of the usual 3.5 guestimation with scum havign 0.5-0.75 vs 3.5

if this all of our power then it has to be an all goon team. As otherwise we would need an extra pr if scum had any sort of pr

[bob3141]

menal

i def think gtp is town

Leaning towards alonzo being town. as after rereading his iso day i got rather towny vib. Missed during n1 the parts of his reply to my question that had ended up inside of the quote. That he quoted in reply, at the time just saw the last line. Only after reading his iso at the start of the day 2 did i see them. When i noticed the quote didnt match the post he quoted.


below that is nora. who gives me a scum vibes yet at the same time i stuggle to see the scum motivation. Just feels like missguided town.

[bob3141]

If menal is scum then he prob already knows who ico has protected. I doubt a scum menal would actual kill ico as he would know who and when ico would protect. And i dont think its likely that menal is scum here. So any talk about who ico has protected only helps scum.

[bob3141]

Followed datisi last night and saw no action

[bob3141]

Nora dont feel too bad. Your in company in making awful vig shots. Once saw a full vig shoot 3 townies

n1 gunsmith backup
n2 gunsmith
n3 obvous town

[bob3141]

The only reason i dont think your fake claiming is that there still is a bit of town power hole

[bob3141]

As menal role is not much stronger than a voyeur one of the weakest town roles in the game.


Nora dont worry in that game with the bad vig kills we still managed to pull a town win out of it

[bob3141]

so if nora is a town vig.

That leaves poe of dtisi, username, alonzo and gtp. Thats teh remainign 2 scum are in and oen mislynch

i think we just need to decide on which one is town.

[bob3141]

Username why didnt you vote teacher yesterday. Even though he was a player you had been pushign as scum much of teh day until he got run up mid day 3.

When me, gpt and menal voted him. By that point you had gone from a hard scum read to leaning town on him

[bob3141]

Also the question is with nora claimign to have shoot

n2 Bm and n3 menal

were both scum nigthkills blocked or did scum shoot teh same player as nora both nights. or a mixture of teh two

[bob3141]

menal flipped role watcher. means he can see what roles visited a player but not who. its a voyeur with alittle more detail


tracker tells you were a player went but not what. follower gets info on the category that any night actions was performed in but not who was visited

[bob3141]

part of my sus on ico is bc town vig often times means scum doc

Not always. A vig normaly means there is protective in the mix of some sort. Either thats a scum doc or a town protective.

When vigs are in they normaly weaken all other town roles that dont have gating. So a 3shot vig would be balanced based on reducing the number of days being reduced by one and one scum or vig kill being blocked. so ungated roles are 3/4 of the strength that they have in game without a vig.

[bob3141]

town has some pretty strong prs imo. this imo means that scum has two prs(one of which we killed already) and a goon

yep either scum has a doc to counter the vig. Roleblocker to generaly block town pr roles or a strongman to counter any protectives town might have.


roleblockers are strong as even a gated roleblocker will result in fair bit of town power being added.


Whiel all are roles apart from the vig seem to be either heavily gated or roles on the weaker side.

as you normaly see either

3 medium pr with a gated medium pr.
1 stong pr and 2 medium pr
1-2 medium pr with the rest being split up into 3-5 weaker town pr

with town getting additional pr for every medium pr scum gets. roleblocker are strong, rolecops/vannilcops medium. with one shot strongman being as strong as roleblocker

[bob3141]

more weaker pr tend to be the case in vig games. As it reduces tehhe swing of either the vig or scum hitting a strong town pr.

[bob3141]

I think the power we have could actualy be balanced with just teacher/prof role. Alittle scum sided but balanced


me, menal. ico and bm are weakened by the vig. So in effect we are 3 shots

as the vig reduces number of nights by one. while this doesnt affect the scum pr. As its rolecop/vannila cop thats odd gated and in terms of balanced night 4 is seen as the last useful night.

ico is double gated if town. so i would say it 0.6 the strnegth of ungated doc. ( just one gatign would be 0.75)


so without another protective in the mix, Ico has to be town. As that still leaves the game scum sided.

[bob3141]

Mena had a pretty strong role
BM did as well
Ico as doctor is really strong
Bob as follower is pretty strong too
and then me as vig

...idk I feel like there's too much town power honestly

menal and my role are pretty weak. menals is just a step up from voyeur. main use is just catching ok fake claims.

Mine is onyl strong than menals as i have low chance of catching a kill action. but with vig in teh game my role instead risks outing teh vig instead.

1.5 cops,
1 docs,
0.5 follower, mailman, vannillcop
0.4 ish role watchers

first gating reduces strength t0 0.75, second is 0.75*0.75


thast my guestimation i use in games and its always served me well

[bob3141]

for scum its

1.5 full roleblocker, one shot strongman
0.75 2 shot roleblocker, rolecops
0.5 vannilacops

[bob3141]

ive been told that before. I did setup spec once to prove that teh watcher and babysitter were without a question of doubt town. but it was long winded and confusing that the rest of town didnt get it. They went on to lynch the babysitter

[bob3141]

basicly is rough tiering of different roles for scum/town.

reviewers count roleblocker for scum to be strong yet for town medium. Same goes for neighbourizers and neighbourhoods

weak if t/t but strong for scum if town/scum

[bob3141]

in my guesstimation town gets one point for every scum. 0.5 for a traitor

plus equal extra power to what ever scum gets. so if scum gets one medium role that means town gets another


After a while you get to role madness. like the 50p that failed. where 75% of town was pr and 50% of scum had prs

[bob3141]

im in no neighbourhood

and scum havign pt cop leaves me thinking that ico cant be scum. if ico was scum then scum would already know the neighbourhood. so why have pt cop just for bm role. Over just a straight vannilla cop.

[bob3141]

the problem here is that i agree with bob that this setup is already scum sided, and it would be even more so if bob were scum.

do you disagree with that?

with the caveat that i took a six-year break that only ended a few months ago, so i don't know a whole lot about how setups are balanced these days,

if scum have no power besides Traffic Analyst, which i think is extremely mediocre as a scum power, then Vig+Doc+Mailman/Vanilla Cop+Role Watcher seems entirely reasonable to me? two weak investigative roles + one protective role + one shooty shooty role sounds fine as town power?

Towns are normally townsided on the verge of too townsided. So the fact that this game is scum sided when you take account of all the claimed town pr makes it very unlikely that any town power could be scum.



Also care to explain in light of teacher scum flip why you started off scum reading him day one. And come day 3 all of sudden you start shifting to leaning towards him being town. As i see he was still your pool. Did you at the point of his exec still town read him or were you back to scum reading him?

[bob3141]

except i am not scum and i know how to read ico and i'm trying to stop y'all from throwing

One thing i have found in my many games with you is that you have never misread ico. Was one the biggest factors in your last town game that let me solve it day 2. Even if scum did get me lynched


So you agree with me that ico is town. Whihc of teh two of teh possible reason for menal nk based on the fact that ico protected him do you think is more liekly. That he was blocked and nora is scum or that scum and nora double teamed menal?

[bob3141]

except i am not scum and i know how to read ico and i'm trying to stop y'all from throwing

One thing i have found in my many games with you is that you have never misread ico. Was one the biggest factors in your last town game that let me solve it day 2. Even if scum did get me lynched


So you agree with me that ico is town. Whihc of teh two of teh possible reason for menal nk based on the fact that ico protected him do you think is more liekly. That he was blocked and nora is scum or that scum and nora double teamed menal?

You were the one that said bc of the lack of town power, we must assume all prs r conftown. what happened to that?

I think your town

Im askign what datisi view of you is.

[bob3141]

want to know more about what datisi thinks so i can sort him. Last game i read his day one and town binned him but what to make sure that that read wasnt flawed even if it was right. as the poe strongly points to datisi

As based on my reads its most likely username/datisi. As i think alonzo is town and town leaning gtp

[bob3141]

alonzo just doesnt make sense with that hammer on teacher even if datisi had claimed intent a few hours before. Normaly scum doesnt hammer like that when a townie has declared intent.

[bob3141]

except i am not scum and i know how to read ico and i'm trying to stop y'all from throwing

One thing i have found in my many games with you is that you have never misread ico. Was one the biggest factors in your last town game that let me solve it day 2. Even if scum did get me lynched


So you agree with me that ico is town. Whihc of teh two of teh possible reason for menal nk based on the fact that ico protected him do you think is more liekly. That he was blocked and nora is scum or that scum and nora double teamed menal?

did dats suggest option 1? i think option 2 is the obvious one here.

Neither. he listed possibilities that he thought could explain it but didnt weigh on which oen he thought was most likely yet.

[bob3141]

golden is cleared town

The slot inst clear but is likely town. as we dont know what happened n2 as we have the nk you claimed. But we dont know if scum shot BM for some reason aswell. Or if it was blocked which would confirm gtp if they shot him. Or even if they no killed for some reason.


Also ico do you know what results menal got n1 and n2

[bob3141]

Bob what was your n2 result plz?

i followed bm. was hoping to clear him but nora killed him

Would have been able to clear him as my gut was saying it was repeat of the loyal fruit vendor gambitig against teh disloyal fruit vendor. And it would be easier to stop his lynch if i could confirm as a cop. Even if he did stretch as we know his results

[bob3141]

no kill on day 2 is stupid.

seen it before and in game they did 2 no kills. we ended up losing

teh first no kill was balanced out by a vig kill and the second was done to frame a townie. Only i ended up roleblocking scum so we thought i had guility rather than the fact they no killed twice

[bob3141]

Trying to figure out if gtp was who scum tried to kill n2 who would be motivated that way. Gtp had datis as town read and username as slight town lean. Even teacher was no worse than null.

His bottom town reads were alonzo and ico. But ico is sure town based on claim and alonzo hammers are rather towny. So wondering why gtp over the likes of menal.

[bob3141]

BTW EVERYONE GO SAY HAPPY BDAY TO MOD
ASAP OTHERWISE I VIG U(this was a joke in case some people didnt get it somehow :/)

is it actualy gypx birthday

[bob3141]

it was bc both ur night results gave us zero new info

its a follower for for you. only slighly better than a voyeur.

[bob3141]

BTW EVERYONE GO SAY HAPPY BDAY TO MOD
ASAP OTHERWISE I VIG U(this was a joke in case some people didnt get it somehow :/)

is it actualy gypx birthday

Yes it was, you meanie >:(

*angry honking*

well then happy birthday plus one day

[bob3141]

AtE. Also explain why Golden is not scum. Why Bob?

TGP really seems to be putting a lot of effort into genuinely trying to solve the game today when he could easily coast as scum.

bob has never once looked like he is trying to solve anything, and his shelly vote on D1 was absolutely heinous. literally his reasoning was "scum don't seem to have opportunistically hopped onto this wagon that i am opportunistically hopping onto".

see its thing s like this that leaves me sure your scum. Endless shade and at no point any bases for an actual scum read from you.


And even that your whoel scum read on me is wait one sentance. Somethign that you have sat on most of the day and really not done much else. When it finally came around to teacher being run up, you abandoned your scum read of him. You only joined teacher day one after menal had already started to hyper post about getting shelly lynched. When there was no risk of teacher going through the way he was pushing. So your vote on teacher hardly clears you. As when it counted and there was real chance of teacher being lynched. You were on the first bus out.

[bob3141]

The thing you keep trying to go back to even had nothing to do with the reason i ended up voting shelly. Which is something that would be clear to anyone. And feels very much to me liek you were scum trying to create a false narrative.

Trying to side line that very fact i was trying to figure out the make up of teh wagon. And if it was all town on a townie. all town on scum. or mix of scum and town. So again you ignor the very fact at that point i was tryign to solve. So your evidence for me not solving is me solving.

[bob3141]

if alonzo and bunno hadnt recklessly quick hammered i would have unvoted. As the wagon dynamic at that point heavily reminded me of prior game where i got heavily wagon at the start of day one. The wagon had been all town and scum had held of joining hoping to get misexe later. Guess what they failed and one of there number got exe in teh attempt.

ok they won but that was due to bold action by one of teh scum. so inlylo no one listened to me that its him.

[bob3141]

a fun thing to do is to go into bob's iso, and ctrl+f for the word 'fellow'

then go and do it in all of his most recent finished games.

my findings: 7 instances in this game
18 instances in this game, where he was scum
0 instances in any of the town games i looked at.

how do you do, fellow townies

Now what a stupid read. your really scraping the barrel here.

Username tell me whats scummy about using the word fellow? you will be saying he uses the word the 50% times more lol

[bob3141]

^not a great way to judge people but going that in depth does make me feel like you could be town.

more likely he hasnt look at single one of my town games

[bob3141]

see how he keeps tryign to distract from teh fact when it counted he flipped on teacher. when menal was hard pushing shelly so much that he brow beat a wagon there. He was all for teacher but as soon as there is real chance of teacher getting lynched he is all town on that slot. If he was town he would been one to scum read and exe teacher. instead he just threw shade around at other players

[bob3141]

Ive asked him to explain it quite a few times now and every time he has ignored it to talk about trivial things. Like x used such a word. That is common word in english language. talk about shade

[bob3141]

Just no way i can see username being town here.

VOTE: username

[bob3141]

you do know that was a joke

That was teh game i moved back to using google word for both scum and town games.

[bob3141]

I did not check all of them but it does seem none of his town games has the word "fellow"
but I did find one scum game that didnt have any of the word fellow either

just how I talk. fellow townie, another townie ect


Your more than welcome to look through my 30 completed games to see how much of idiot scum username is being.

[bob3141]

My typo use to be so bad that it inspired another player to make a typo alt. with the name being typo of his main lol

[bob3141]

UNVOTE:

looking through every one of bob's completed games and making a spreadsheet of the word fellow. this is looking damning.

you mean me using the word fellow 4 times this game ?

[bob3141]

you do realise username is lying through his teeth and has been added in word present in quotes

[bob3141]

scum are going to kick them selves when they hear that ico couldnt of protected me.

My full role is macho follower.


N4 i followed alonzo and he performeda kill.


Since i was wrong on username but i doubt i was wrong on datisi it must be alonzo/datisi



VOTE: Alonzp

[bob3141]

VOTE: Alonzo

[bob3141]

Alonzo i bet you thought i would have followed datisi. Far more likely that the scum in my town reads would have carried out the kill. Couldnt have been golden as we only had the one kill on player scum were unlikly to target. A player that nora calimed to have killed.

Since ico protected golden that most likely means golden was the scum nk targeted. Was small chance that scum no killed but based on teh fact the only claimed doc flipped town. One i knew from my role was certain to be legit. No need for macho follower unless there was somethign to protected it.

[bob3141]

Even if it would actualy do any good.

[bob3141]

wouldnt

[bob3141]

wait right bob followed alonzo to the kill

hm i guess alonzo/datisi then unless bob and alonzo are playing 5d chess

Thats what a tracker does. I get the info that alonzo tried to kill someone. An action type that only scum and a vig can perform. And since he cant be vig that means he can only be scum

[bob3141]

seems more an issue that occured during review as it was just a plain vengful intialy