Mini Normal 2169 : random facts, game over !

[iamausername]

man i hope this game calms down a bit

Noraa is oozing newbtown and Ico somehow being the only other person to see this is also giving me strong townvibes.

-I'm townleaning BM a bit because most of his posts are things I'd more likely see coming from town!BM than scum!BM. Just a gut feeling at the moment. Could change though.

this sounds like super forced?

VOTE: Bob

I get the feeling noraa Vs BM continuing benefits Bob, I don't interpret his posting as him truly trying to guide noraa there.

i agree with both of these takes. pii seems weirdly nervous about calling BM town, bob absolutely does not feel like he is trying to sort Nora with his questioning, it feels like he knows she is town and is trying to manipulate her into saying something incriminating.

VOTE: bob

[iamausername]

my fun fact is that i think both Ico and Noraa are town, and they're both voting TheGoldenParadox for what i think are bad reasons, but i think they've managed to hit scum anyway

scumreading Iconeum because i don't really see their logic on voting me as being town-motivated - my vote will stay where it is for now, but that will change if ico gets noticably scummier.

you're looking really defensive to me right now, so while i'm staying with my light townlean, i'm not confident in it either.

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has, they feel like they are conscious choices that he is making, and the way he is threatening to upgrade them to scumreads to try to get the people voting him to back off is scummy as hell.

also, the progression from

rn i think noraa is just newbie town, but being confident in bm!scum within the first day doesn't really scream town; noraa will stay at a light townread.

to

also nora's reads on menal and me scream newbtown.

to

do i think your scumreads on menal and me are legitimate instead of simply trying to generate empty content? no, not really.

in the space of like half an hour makes absolutely no sense

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[iamausername]

bob, do you have any reads at all

you still seem to be on an RVS vote right now, do you plan to move it any time soon?

[iamausername]

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has

...i don't know how the word 'about' managed to move a whole three places to the right in this sentence. "talking about his reads as", that should say.

[iamausername]

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has

...i don't know how the word 'about' managed to move a whole three places to the right in this sentence. "talking about his reads as", that should say.

you were re-reading the post later then eh? why?

idk, the typo in the first post jumped out at me when i made the second one

i wasn't like obsessively scanning my own post for scumslips or something.

i do all that in the preview window before hitting submit.

[iamausername]

those three reads are entirely self-consistent.

rn i think noraa is just newbie town, but being confident in bm!scum within the first day

doesn't really scream town

; noraa will stay at a light townread.

also nora's reads on menal and me

scream newbtown

.

are you sure about that

[iamausername]

i'm in favour of elimming in the pool of 'lurkers' today, to stop the game stagnating. anyone with fewer than 15 posts so far.

Which means: Dox, Taylor, Piis and Iama.

I think you know I like Dox for the blox.

Approved.

Alonzo, did you notice that you were missing from this list even though you fit the criteria at the time?

are you approving lurker purge in general, or specifically the Golden Paradox wagon?

[iamausername]

In no specific order (copy pasta from mod post), and to varying degrees of townread, here are my townies for today:

NOT FLIPPING TODAY

Alonzo
Iconeum
iamausername
Datisi
teacher
Battle Mage
bob3141
shellyc
Menalque

WOULD FLIP TODAY

TheGoldenParadox/Noraa
piisirrational/Tayl0r Swift

i'd switch Swifty for bob, got a gut town feel from her early postings and i've seen no reason to doubt it as yet, while bob has a major case of trying hard to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

i also wouldn't flip Noraa today, but i get where you're coming from in 753. i just feel like the possibility of her being scum still seems very unlikely to me.

[iamausername]

why is shelly the leading wagon right now?

as far as i can tell, the case on shelly is basically that she doesn't understand what 'fencesitting' means.

[iamausername]

then you should vote for GoldenParadox

[iamausername]

then you should vote for GoldenParadox

Im not liking that slot and would be fine with a golden flip today

then you should vote for GoldenParadox

[iamausername]

I will if we need the extra vote. Otherwise I currently still like my vote on BM

i don't see BM making 832 as scum here. he was not under any pressure, at all, from anybody else.

he doesn't need to make a big show to persuade everybody else that he's town; everyone else already thinks he's town (or at least, doesn't seem to think he's scum).
he doesn't need to make a big show to persuade you that he's town. i'm pretty sure scum!BM would be perfectly content to let the situation of town!Noraa tunnelling him and being ignored by the town at large continue indefinitely.
so if he's scum, what does he actually stand to gain from making that post? why go to all that effort?

But, I kind of hate when I get posts like this because I'm the type of newbie that will actually have more biased reads due to something like this cuz I tend to be more emotionally driven than logically driven.

i don't think you should feel bad about being more emotionally driven than logically driven, and i think you should let your reads be biased by something like this. like, i'm not saying that appeals to emotion will never come from scum, or that you shouldn't consider the possibility that someone is trying to manipulate you. but i think it's very unlikely here, for the reasons outlined above.

[iamausername]

i'd switch Swifty for bob, got a gut town feel from her early postings and i've seen no reason to doubt it as yet, while bob has a major case of trying hard to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

i also wouldn't flip Noraa today, but i get where you're coming from in 753. i just feel like the possibility of her being scum still seems very unlikely to me.

can you explain why you wouldn’t flip noraa

in short, because i think Noraa is town and i would prefer not to execute town if we can avoid it.

in long, i think she's town because she doesn't seem to be motivated by self-preservation, like at all. what she mostly seems to be motivated by is a desire to prove that she is right. this is kind of a bad thing for a town player to be motivated by, and most of her reasoning is extremely flawed, to be sure, but i believe that she believes in it.

like, her progression from tunneling BM to joining the Golden wagon to going back to tunneling BM to finally acknowledging that her tunneling might be misguided does not feel like a scum progression at all. for me, the way she jumped off the Golden wagon as soon as BM's somewhat abrasive nature got her hackles up again allayed any concern i might have had that her Golden vote was scum opportunistically joining a popular wagon. the fact that she refused my repeated requests to vote for Golden yesterday, and in fact still hasn't done so even after backing down on BM also back that up.

[iamausername]

can everybody give like 2 people they want to elim today? would be good to get some hard data at this point.

agreed.

my two are GoldenParadox and bob.

[iamausername]

bob's case of "shelly is scum because scum didn't opportunistically jump onto her wagon" sure seems like a good excuse to opportunistically jump onto her wagon huh

[iamausername]

username, alonzo, BM and noraa should probably start giving opinions on the 2 wagons and vote on either one to try and consolidate something

acknowledged. need to get caught up properly, but my feeling before doing so is that i expect to be more inclined to vote Taylor over shelly.

[iamausername]

alright. in general i think we are in need of some flips, we're just kind of going in circles and achieving very little.

the group of {teacher/Taylor/Alonzo} have all been pretty much non-entities throughout, not really making any pushes or taking any strong stances, and i would be extremely surprised if there was no scum in this group. i'd rank them as teacher>Taylor>>>>Alonzo in terms of who is most likely scum here.

i'm also still extremely down for executing bob, who continues to seem like obvious scum to me and apparently no one else but i don't feel like i'm going to get any traction there.

i am no longer down for executing GoldenParadox. his posting has improved dramatically in recent times and i'm not surprised that the wagon disappeared.

also i really liked Bunno's entrance. feel like scum replacing in midway through D1 would be vastly more likely to focus on existing wagons than to try to generate something new in the way that Bunno did, and he made some compelling points re: Taylor.

a full reads list looks something like:

OBVTOWNS
Noraa
Battle Mage
Bunno

PROBTOWN
Iconeum
shellyc
Menalque

I HAVE SOME CONCERNS
TheGoldenParadox
Datisi
Alonzo

HERE BE SCUM
Tayl0r Swift
teacher
bob3141

VOTE: teacher

[iamausername]

that post took like twelve attempts to go through oh my god everybody chill

[iamausername]

work with me here. let's ignore the information from the flip itself because you're saying you actually pretty strongly believe in teacher!scum. can you explain your case on teacher!scum disregarding any information you'd get from a potential teacher!scum flip?

teacher exemplifies the scum sitting back and letting town tear each other apart. he is obviously keeping up with the game enough to be aware of who the major wagons are, and his thoughts on them always seem to be "i am aware of the case but i don't agree", and yet there is absolutely zero effort to push any alternatives.

he's also stated he thinks BM/Noraa is TvS without taking a stance on which is which or showing any particular effort to sort them

just in general there is little to no sign that he is doing anything to either a) push executions on players he thinks are scum or b) figure out who is scum.

[iamausername]

don't see any reason for scum!BM to make this play, and i don't see any way this day doesn't end in a Taylor execution.

will withhold my vote for now, because it's probably worth waiting for everyone to check in before we power this through, but i don't think there's a need to draw out this day beyond that.

[iamausername]

I think we Lim from the Taylor wagon today.

this seems extremely dubious. who was on or off that wagon seems to be largely based on who was online at the time BM made his claim. shelly wagon seems like a better place to focus, if we're going to aim at a town wagon

VOTE: Bob

Still not oozing town there Bob

this part is accurate tho.

VOTE: bob

[iamausername]

What is with everyone of late rushing day one. I come back from work Friday gone.After having nearly no time to look at the thread since wednesday. And see that Shelley was quick lynched.

why did you vote shelly if you didn't want her to be executed, bob

[iamausername]

So first off does anyone besides me think that a vig killed BM?

it was definitely a thought that occurred to me. only one kill per night makes it less likely, but not impossible. as you say, vig could be limited, and scum kill could have been blocked.

probably best not to speculate about it at the moment though. if it is the case, we don't want to give scum clues as to the identity of the vig, or the person who stopped their kill. when those people are ready to claim, we should be able to piece together what happened.

until then, let's just focus on executing scum. bob has helpfully decided to bus his partner today, so that should make it easier.

[iamausername]

now that teacher is actually a presence here, i'm feeling a lot less inclined to believe he's scum. the things he's saying are making a lot of sense, and the things TGP is saying are very much not.

i'd still rather do bob, who is obvscum in all scenarios, but if we are doing a teacher vs. TGP 1v1, pretty sure i'm voting TGP.

bob/{TGP or teacher}/{Alonzo or datisi} is the solve, i think.

can't see TGP/teacher as s/s here, and everyone else is town.

[iamausername]

it is simple PoE. i am confident in my town reads on Noraa, Ico & Mena. i am confident in my scumread on bob. i do not have a confident read either way on you or datisi. if my other assumptions are correct, one of you must be scum.

i have no intention of trying to execute either of you before my other assumptions have been proven correct.

[iamausername]

i was somewhat unsure about you before that day where you went nuts spamming the thread to force through the shelly execution

that felt like pure town passion.

[iamausername]

with 1 misflip before lylo, is this claim day?

thinking about it, this is probably correct. the shortness of D2 makes it feel too early, but it isn't really. two nights worth of actions should be of some use and it's definitely better to lock scum into claims before lylo. we should massclaim.

[iamausername]

sort of expected there to be a little bit more discussion weighing up the pros and cons of massclaim, and not everybody jumping straight to it on my say so, but ok.

i'm a VT too.

[iamausername]

I think scum messed with his night actions

they did not. there are no roles allowed in normal games that can do this in the way you're thinking.

i think i've pieced together what seems to have happened from the message Mena said he got:

BM saw 1789 from Taylor, then either didn't see or didn't believe her very next post explaining that that one was a joke and took the softclaim of "you wont lunch me due to my role" at face value. so when he checked her and was told she was vanilla, he thought he'd caught scum.

then he misrepresented his results to the rest of us instead of letting anyone have a chance to maybe figure out his mistake because BM being wrong is completely inconceivable to BM.

[iamausername]

in what world do scum see BM claim cop with a guilty on a VT and assume that he is actually a cop

[iamausername]

Whats a follower?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Follower

UNVOTE: bob

unless there's a whole lot of power in teacher and Ico's claims, bob probably has to be town here. re-evaluation is required.

bob, did you put out any crumbs at all?

[iamausername]

so you think there are too many VT claims, but you also think the one person who didn’t claim VT (so far) could be scum?

[iamausername]

man if we have to wait for a teacher replacement to get this massclaim done

yaaaaawn

[iamausername]

I put you in the top of my townreads without reason and you don't question?
I scumread you, still no questions...

Vote you

Nothing...

how does that make you feel

[iamausername]

ok cool.

looks like scum all decided to claim VT.

Alonzo is semi cleared by bob - possible that he is scum who didn't perform the kill or any other action, but it seems unlikely. i'd expect scum to have a PR of some kind, and Alonzo seemed to largely avoid suspicion through D1, so would make sense for him to perform the kill. willing to treat Alonzo as town, at least for now.

that brings the pool down to

TGP
Datisi
Prof Mafia
Noraa
Mena

so one of my earlier assumptions was wrong. either one of Mena/Noraa is actually scum, or TGP/teacher was in fact s/s. more inclined to think the latter than the former, i think, but i'm going to do some rereading now that we have all the info.

for now
VOTE: Datisi

cannot see a world where he isn't scum here

[iamausername]

does anyone think Datisi is town?

if so, why?

[iamausername]

If we’re relatively happy that TGP is town

i'm not happy with this. i'd feel much better if Noraa and Alonzo were your locktowns from the VT pool, given that i'm clearly never going to be one of them.

Prof is definitely an acceptable execution, but i want to hear some parting thoughts from Ico before we end the day, since he's probably dying tonight.

[iamausername]

Ico has also shared his targets with Mena in their PT, right? so if he dies, Mena will be able to tell us what they were.

[iamausername]

Ico, any last words of wisdom regarding Mena’s plan?

mostly wondering if you have any insights on Alonzo/TGP. that choice seems like what it’s going to come down to.

[iamausername]

gonna wait for Ico to tell us what he knows before i even try to process all of this

what the fuck

[iamausername]

i'm a little busy until the weekend, so if you guys could possibly not kill me until then that would be great. i want to re-examine D1 properly with all the info we have now.

i mean, i'd appreciate not dying at all, but i really don't think that's going to happen, so.

i think i was probably right in the first place about bob, the only reason i stopped thinking he was scum is that there wasn't enough town power without him, but given that both Noraa and Mena were apparently lying when they claimed VT, that's no longer the case.

and look:

Combined Mailman Vanilla Cop
Odd-Night Complex Traffic Analyst
Role Watcher Neighbor
Ascetic Indecisive Doctor Neighbor
Novice 3-Shot Vigilante
Follower

is it just me, or is one of these things not like the others?

bob/Datisi i think.

i'm sure no one will listen to me before i'm dead, but please give me a chance to leave you something substantial, and pay attention to it once i'm gone. that's all i ask.

[iamausername]

the problem here is that i agree with bob that this setup is already scum sided, and it would be even more so if bob were scum.

do you disagree with that?

with the caveat that i took a six-year break that only ended a few months ago, so i don't know a whole lot about how setups are balanced these days,

if scum have no power besides Traffic Analyst, which i think is extremely mediocre as a scum power, then Vig+Doc+Mailman/Vanilla Cop+Role Watcher seems entirely reasonable to me? two weak investigative roles + one protective role + one shooty shooty role sounds fine as town power?

[iamausername]

scum is in {datisi, alonzo, iaaun}

we execute iaaun, vig alonzo, and if we haven't won by that point execute datisi

noraa remember when we agreed that i was mechanically town

reads don't matter this game is mechanically solved unless a town pr is lying

VOTE: iaaun

shoot alonzo tonight.

man if you weren't semi-cleared, i would feel certain that this was scum trying to rush the win
still not sure it isn't

because, assuming Alonzo is town, this would hand scum the win right away.

we're 5:2 right now.
execute me -> 4:2
Noraa shoots Alonzo, scum kill some other town player -> 2:2

OOPS SCUM WIN

why Alonzo over Datisi for the vig shot?

[iamausername]

user is trying to tell us scums are golden and datisi?

golden/Datisi or bob/Datisi, i think.

as i said, i want to revisit D1 interactions at the weekend with all the information we have now.

im not shooting alonzo. I'm shooting datisi

not sure that you should shoot anyone, but that's the right choice if you're going to.

[iamausername]

let's start off with some good old wagon analysis

first wagon of any real significance was on Noraa, as of 325, VC looked like this:

Spoiler: VC

Noraa (4) - Datisi,

BM

, TGP,

shellyc

Ico (1) -

pii

BM

(1) - Noraa

pii

(1) - bob
bob (1) - Alonzo

Mena

(1) -

Teacher

shelly

(1) -

Taylor

Not Voting (3) -

Mena

, Ico, iaaun

early days, so it's possible for the Noraa wagon to be all town, but less likely. small scum points for Datisi and TGP here.

after this, Noraa wagon dies, and shelly wagon appears, followed quickly by a counterwagon on TGP. as of 582, VC looked like this:

Spoiler: VC

shelly

(4) -

Taylor

,

Mena

, Datisi, TGP
TGP (4) - Ico, Noraa, iaaun,

BM

Ico (1) -

pii

pii

(1) - bob
bob (1) - Alonzo

Mena

(1) -

Teacher

Taylor

(1) -

shellyc

Not Voting (0)

analyzing this is a little harder without knowing TGP's alignment. if he's town, Datisi is the only candidate for scum on the shelly wagon here, and unless Ico or Noraa are somehow scum, the only candidate for scum on either wagon. TGP, if you're town, this should be damning evidence that Datisi must die once you have my flip.
if TGP is scum, Datisi looks less screamingly obvious scum here. would two scum pile onto the first solid town wagon to appear in quick succession? not sure about that.

after this, there was very little significant movement for a long time. at the start of page 37, VC looked like this:

Spoiler: VC

shelly

(4) -

Taylor

,

Mena

, Datisi, TGP
TGP (3) - Ico, iaaun,

BM

Taylor

(2) -

shellyc

,

Teacher

BM

(1) - Alonzo
Ico (1) -

pii

pii

(1) - bob

Not Voting (1) - Noraa

Teacher made an attempt to start a new wagon on Taylor that didn't take off at the time. mostly suggests he didn't want to join the extant town wagon on shelly because there was already scum there. TGP wagon had lost Noraa by this point, which could explain why he didn't join that one either, alternately, TGP being scum could also explain it.

in 1101, on page 45, bob finally cast his first non-RVS vote, joining the shelly wagon for absolutely horrible reasons that should have had him executed D1 jesus christ people. at this point, the VC looked like this:

Spoiler: VC

shelly

(5) -

Taylor

,

Mena

, Datisi, TGP, bob
TGP (2) - iaaun,

BM

Taylor

(1) -

shellyc

,

BM

(1) - Alonzo
Ico (1) -

pii

pii

(1) -

Teacher

Noraa (1) - Ico

Not Voting (1) - Noraa

oh. so every non-shelly wagon died, but there was no scum at all pushing it? 5 town players vote for another town player, while every scum just fucks around letting town kill themselves? nah. there is 100% scum in Datisi/TGP/bob, and this VC makes it clear.

Bunno replaces pii, starts a counterwagon going on Taylor, which ultimately prompts Ico to put shelly to E-1. as of 1373, VC looked like this:

Spoiler: VC

shelly

(6) -

Taylor

,

Mena

, Datisi, TGP, bob, Ico

Taylor

(3) -

shellyc

,

Bunno

,

Teacher

TGP (2) - iaaun,

BM

BM

(1) - Alonzo

Not Voting (1) - Noraa

once again, there is obviously scum on the shelly wagon at this point. Teacher being quite happy to join the shelly counterwagon when it's Taylor and not TGP looks somewhat bad for TGP, also.

BM then started a counter-counterwagon on actual scum Teacher, while Mena flipped the fuck out and made the thread harder for everybody to read. thanks Mena! as of page 70, the VC looked like this:

Spoiler: VC

shelly

(4) -

Mena

, TGP, bob, Ico

Taylor

(3) -

shellyc

,

Bunno

,

Teacher

Teacher

(3) -

BM

, Datisi, iaaun

BM

(2) - Alonzo, Noraa

Bunno

(1) -

Taylor

Not Voting (0)

Datisi moving off the shelly wagon to join the Teacher wagon is not something i remembered happening, and is making me question my certainty on his scummitude. really not an opportune moment to bus. BUT I GUESS I WAS DOING IT ANYWAY, EVEN THOUGH I OBVIOUSLY COULD HAVE VOTED TAYLOR HERE TO KEEP THE TOWN WAGONS ON TOP. SURE.

this all gets consolidated a little more by 1880, and things look like this:

Spoiler: VC

shelly

(4) - TGP, bob, Ico,

Mena

Teacher

(4) - Datisi, iaaun,

Taylor

,

BM

Taylor

(3) -

shellyc

,

Bunno

,

Teacher

BM

(2) - Alonzo, Noraa

Not Voting (0)

looking at how the day went from here to shelly execution seems like it will be most informative, as we know the alignment of every wagon at this point.

aaaand, in 2006, Datisi breaks the deadlock, and it looks like this:

Spoiler: VC

shelly

(5) - TGP, bob,

Mena

, Ico, Datisi

Teacher

(3) - iaaun,

Taylor

,

BM

Taylor

(3) -

shellyc

,

Bunno

,

Teacher

BM

(2) - Alonzo, Noraa

Not Voting (0)

and then Bunno hops on and Alonzo hammers. welp.

the main things i have gleaned from this are:
a) Datisi maybe isn't scum??? he was ultimately the one that made sure shelly happened over teacher, but his teacher vote really doesn't look much like bussing.
b) it is fucking obvious that i am town if you actually read D1, but nobody else is going to bother to do that so i guess i'm getting executed because Mena said so and it's not like Mena could possibly be wrong
c) Alonzo sure didn't do shit to help town achieve anything at all on D1.

there is literally no point in looking at D2 wagons, but i guess i'll have a quick gander at D3 and then do some isoreads.

also this

bob's case of "shelly is scum because scum didn't opportunistically jump onto her wagon" sure seems like a good excuse to opportunistically jump onto her wagon huh

[iamausername]

the day begins with a couple of votes each on bob and Teacher. VC as of 2184:

Spoiler: VC

bob (2) - Alonzo, iaaun

Teacher

(2) - TGP, bob

Not Voting (5) - Ico,

Teacher

, Noraa, Datisi,

Mena

if bob is town, Alonzo looks bad here. if bob is scum, we have arrived at the bus station.

anyway, we did a 'massclaim' where pretty much everybody lied, but before that happened, the VC looked like this:

Spoiler: VC

Teacher

(3) - bob, TGP,

Mena

bob (1) - iaaun
TGP (1) -

Teacher

Datisi (1) - Alonzo

Not Voting (3) - Ico, Noraa, Datisi

reading it again, Teacher/TGP doesn't look s/s at all, again. i don't think TGP is scum.

after massclaim happens, Teacher is replaced by Prof, who comes into this situation:

Spoiler: VC

Prof

(3) - bob, TGP,

Mena

TGP (1) -

Prof

Noraa (1) - Alonzo

Not Voting (4) - Ico, Noraa, Datisi, iaaun

did he realise his goose was cooked? yeah probably. much as i would like to point to his immediate vote on me as further evidence that i am town, i think trying to read into anything he said is kind of WIFOM city.

and, eh, there's just not a whole lot to analyze from D3. there weren't really any competing wagons. there was just the teacher wagon. final votecount looked like this, for the record:

Spoiler: VC

Prof

(3) - bob, TGP,

Mena

, Ico, Alonzo
iaaun (1) -

Prof

Datisi (1) - iaaun

Not Voting (2) - Noraa, Datisi

so who's scum? as of right now, my gut feeling is that it's most likely bob/Alonzo. i don't think it's TGP. i hope it's Datisi/Alonzo, because i assume that's who you guys are going to execute after me, but i don't really think it is.

i am annoyed that TGP kicked off a massclaim without waiting for people to weigh in on whether it was a good idea, and annoyed that town players decided to lie when they saw that a massclaim was happening, because what that has ultimately done is produced the narrative of "bob is cofirmed town" when he really fucking isn't.

VOTE: bob

a futile gesture. if i'm not dead yet, and i can find the motivation, i will do some isoreads tomorrow.

[iamausername]

AtE. Also explain why Golden is not scum. Why Bob?

TGP really seems to be putting a lot of effort into genuinely trying to solve the game today when he could easily coast as scum.

bob has never once looked like he is trying to solve anything, and his shelly vote on D1 was absolutely heinous. literally his reasoning was "scum don't seem to have opportunistically hopped onto this wagon that i am opportunistically hopping onto".

[iamausername]

if alonzo and bunno hadnt recklessly quick hammered i would have unvoted.

[iamausername]

a fun thing to do is to go into bob's iso, and ctrl+f for the word 'fellow'

then go and do it in all of his most recent finished games.

my findings: 7 instances in this game
18 instances in this game, where he was scum
0 instances in any of the town games i looked at.

how do you do, fellow townies

[iamausername]

^not a great way to judge people but going that in depth does make me feel like you could be town.

more likely he hasnt look at single one of my town games

if this was the case, wouldn't it be trivially easy to prove?

if you talk about 'my fellow townies' all the time, regardless of alignment

then i'm sure you can find a town game where this happens, right?

[iamausername]

please do. i didn't honestly expect to find anything when i started looking into it - i was reading through bob's iso when i noticed he said 'fellow town' a couple of times and it stuck out to me as weird and unnatural. decided to look and see if he has used that phrasing in other games, expecting to discover that bob just talks like that, and it meant nothing.

like, i looked at a couple of town games, nothing, then i looked at that scum game and '1/18' popped up and i literally said 'holy shit' out loud. did like three or four more town games, found 0/0, came and posted here.

if i'm right about this, and it is the key to getting bob executed as scum, i might just have to quit mafia forever, because i'm never topping this moment.

[iamausername]

then you have vanillacop/mailman and rolewatcher neighbour, which sound cool, but are like "here's your fun toy, if you manage to get one useful result with it, consider yourself lucky"

i agree that rolewatcher is pretty damn weak, but i feel like maybe you're underrating the power of combined mailman/vanilla cop? obviously BM completely botched it here, and i'm not even sure how i'd go about unlocking the full potential of the role but i think that potential is there?

idk, i'm just having such a hard time seeing Datisi/Alonzo as the scum team, and that literally has to be it if bob is town.

maybe i am blinded by confbias. maybe the fellow thing is just a weird coincidence, maybe the fact that Follower is the only claimed/flipped role that isn't an incomprehensible word salad is not meaningful. maybe bob genuinely does believe that Mena's spam posting on D1 both did and did not make a shelly execution completely inevitable.

but i don't think so.

[iamausername]

maybe bob genuinely does believe that Mena's spam posting on D1 both did and did not make a shelly execution completely inevitable.

i should probably actually make the post i am referencing here before i reference it, sorry.

in 3068, bob claims that my D1 teacher vote was meaningless because Mena had started hyperposting when i made it, so there was no way that anyone but shelly was getting executed D1.

in 3070, bob also claims that he would have dismantled the shelly wagon himself after the point where Mena started hyperposting, if only Bunno and Alonzo hadn't recklessly quickhammered before he had the chance.

these two positions seem difficult to reconcile. and also, conveniently, both serve to distance bob from taking any responsibility for the town execution that he voted for on D1.

[iamausername]

if you're town, attacking me is not the way to go when i'm pseudoconfirmed.

let's go with alonzo today, noraa can holster tonight while bob tracks one of {user/dats}

you know what, this is a guaranteed win if we make the assumption that {Ico, TGP, Noraa} are all town and Alonzo is scum.

if bob claims a guilty on me/Datisi, we execute him and his guilty in whatever order.
if he claims an inno, we execute him and the other person in whatever order.

i'm definitely happy assuming the townblock, at least.

[iamausername]

hey if we assume that bob is scum, bob is scum you guys

that;s my case now
deal with it

[iamausername]

can you talk about your read on me this game? like what made you So Sure i was scum on day three?

on day three i was hoodwinked into assuming that bob had to be town by Mena and Noraa both lying about their roles.

from this perspective, the scum had to be in {teacher, TGP, Datisi, Alonzo, Mena, Noraa}

Mena's membership in the neighbourhood + the intensity with which he pushed shelly at the end of D1 made him likely town.
Noraa has felt obvtown throughout to me.

we narrow down to {teacher, TGP, Datisi, Alonzo}. i had scumread both of teacher and TGP on D1, but their interactions on D3 did not feel like distancing. i was sure one of them was scum, but not which one.

Alonzo was semi-cleared by bob's N1 result. obviously not conclusive, but that plus the fact that i didn't have any strong reason to think he was scum besides PoE left me not wanting to vote him at the time.

Datisi, meanwhile, seemed like the obvious fit in all possible scumteams, and felt like nobody was particularly townreading him and yet no one had really pushed him at any point. that plus the fact that you had been pretty low effort since D1 and it just made sense.

[iamausername]

maybe it's unfortunate timing of me arguing why me(username don't make sense as s/s and then for him to jump out saying he doesn't think i'm scum anymore. like makes my gut feel he's lowkey trying to tie me to himself.

also, like, if i'm scum trying to tie myself to you... who's my partner?

from your perspective, doesn't it have to be Alonzo anyway?

surely it can't be bob

[iamausername]

username green -> shoot datisi

no what no

Noraa should absolutely not shoot anyone in basically all scenarios, but especially not this

just hand it to Bob and Alonzo on a silver platter

[iamausername]

maybe it's unfortunate timing of me arguing why me(username don't make sense as s/s and then for him to jump out saying he doesn't think i'm scum anymore. like makes my gut feel he's lowkey trying to tie me to himself.

also, like, if i'm scum trying to tie myself to you... who's my partner?

from your perspective, doesn't it have to be Alonzo anyway?

surely it can't be bob

sigh, in a perfect world, we're just walking back an forth between scum!username and scum!alonzo and it doesn't really matter but i'm still getting paranoid

this is an unsatisfactory answer.

even if you're 99% sure the solve is me/Alonzo and it doesn't matter, it is objectively correct for you to vote Alonzo here unless you have an alternate theory that is more plausible than bob/Alonzo.

anyway, i think I've said everything i want to say and it's time to end the day. i hope i'm wrong, and it's as straightforward as Datisi/Alonzo, because it doesn't look like we're going to win this otherwise

VOTE: Alonzo

oh yeah, and Noraa for god sake don't shoot anyone tonight
be a team player i am begging you

[iamausername]

Noraa please don't shoot Ico

if you must be a maverick, shoot bob instead. that might be our best hope at this point

but seriously, you should holster

[iamausername]

Datisi refusing to vote Alonzo is making it more likely that it is just Datisi/Alonzo to be fair

like, what does "more likely scum in a vacuum" even mean in this situation. if i was scum, i would have a partner. we're not in a vacuum.

[iamausername]

who in the fuck ever said I was going to shoot ico

well, you shot Mena.

i'm not ruling anything out

[iamausername]

it was far too town sided. I meant when I said we should all just agree that scum won this, because they by all intents and purposes did, and literally only lost because of a glaring setup imbalance that fucked them in lylo

yeah, when a townie gets executed from a fake guilty by another town, vig shoots two town PRs, and 4/5 executions are town, i feel like that is not a game that town has any business winning

as Mena says, this reflects on the review process more than you, Gypyx. you did a fine job modding, and i enjoyed the game a lot while it was going on.