Mini Normal 2168 | So Many Bats! | Game Over!

[Hectic]

Cool, I suspected everyone would claim VT, but I was hoping for another non-VT, because it'd confirm even more stuff. I am a 2-shot commuter. I'm full claiming the role because I think it's important for explaining why I think shelly's role is too much setup-wise. We have:

Town Informed Gunsmith
Town Rolestopper
Town Weak Friendly Neighbour
Town 2-shot Commuter
Town Night 3 Tracker
8 VTs

If my role didn't exist, I could maybe see the tracker coexisting with both the gunsmith and weak FN, despite them both being moderately strong investigatives, but having my role in the game too tips the balance towards the tracker being too much imo.

What do you all think? I'll be checking some old normal games to get a feel later. Also, looking at the "struck down" list, we have been absolutely abysmal at keeping our PRs alive... 3 most powerful ones all dead by night 2. I wish you hadn't claimed informed, Norwee.

But basically, rolestopper/weak FN/commuter all fit together, since weak FN can catch scum but then put us on evens as a price. Rolestopper or commuter should in theory have a chance of putting us back on odds. The tracker is kind of random and just another PR thrown in the mix. It doesn't make sense setup-wise, it's just thrown in there.

[Hectic]

Whoops, I mean:

Mafia Doctor
Mafia ???
Mafia ???
Town Informed Gunsmith
Town Rolestopper
Town Weak Friendly Neighbour
Town 2-shot Commuter
Town Night 3 Tracker
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

The gunsmith is nerfed because of the mafia doc, but at least it's informed of it. I think this is decently supporting evidence that shelly's claim is probably false, but I should probably try and convince you guys more based on shelly actually being scummy too.

Dave, when you gonna get to us with those reads?

[Hectic]

mafia doctor
I'm guessing 1 other mafia pr.
i think yeah 1 of tracker or night 3 tracker is fake.

Do you mean commuter?

[Hectic]

Do you need to see one big case from me, Plus? I really think you're making a huge mistake here.

Me surviving isn't convenient at all when the rolestopper was outed day 1, and Norwee outed himself as a PR on day 2 when he said he was informed, and bugspray was clear on day 3.

[Hectic]

hectic I respect you and think you'd be quite skilled enough to change my mind on duppin if ur scum. so here goes, hope this doesn't lose us the game
VOTE: duppin

Wait, you're committing to the vote because you feel your mind is being changed? This is some advanced BoPness going on lol

[Hectic]

Yeah, I got this feeling which is why I didn't mention it at all.

I really do think shelly is scum though, Plus. She's pocketed you and is way too confident you're town, it's TMI. Her being "dumb" is not because she's dumb, it's because those thoughts are fake.

@shelly: Why didn't you claim the guilty straight away?

because i was considering risk vs. reward in case duppin was PR

i overthought wayyyyyy too much

also confidence =! TMI, you're confident in scum!me, does this mean you claim scum with me.

Look at this. I asked shelly why she didn't out her guilty straight away. Honestly, I was expecting the answer of "I wanted to wait a little to get some info of where people went before outing it". That answer would be reasonable, but plausible that scum!shelly thought of it. I was expecting to get a NAI response basically.

Instead, shelly didn't even think of that, and went with "I was afraid duppin was a PR who happened to have visited the bugspray on the night they died". This is extremely implausible and unlikely, and shelly does not really believe this. The fact she didn't even think about the info-gathering part means she hasn't thought it through very much, which is even more of an indicator that she isn't someone looking through the perspective of a night 3 tracker, but is fakeclaiming it.

[Hectic]

UNOwen, why aren't you helping me out here? Do you not see the same things I do?

[Hectic]

I think scum!shelly's going to win and I've kind of lost the motivation to fight it anymore. Most likely with Dave.

I haven't caught up completely, but once again, I outed the gunsmith clear without thinking as soon as I saw it, since honestly, I didn't think bugspray would die in the night even with a good clear on them. I later regretted it and even PMed some of my frustration to Morning lol

aaa, I wish I had some more WIM to fight but I really can't be asked right now. duppin, can you please obvtown or something? I feel like the game is lost either way now, since even if I'm horribly wrong and duppin is scum, I'm gonna be mislaunched for the loss tomorrow at this rate.

[Hectic]

I need to remind myself of the mistakes I've made this game:

1) Changed my mind on shelly!scum on day 1 because too scummy to be scum
2) Should've held back on Norwee's bugspray clear soft

Hmm, those are the only two I can think of. I don't think I've played too badly tbh, in a way I'm hoping I'm wrong and duppin is actually scum, but that would be a far more embarrassing way to lose for town the next day.

grumble grumble grumble

[Hectic]

Ftr, if I was scum with duppin: based on how the gamestate was set up ( everyone was believing shelly over duppin, people still townread me), I would absolutely 100% bus duppin at that point and use the towncred to win the next day. Hard defending duppin and going for shelly is just the far more difficult route to victory.

[Hectic]

sighhhh we basically UTR'd hectic for being quite active and giving reads d1

im pretty disappointed in myself for just binning hectic as town

This is a scumpost though. shelly and everyone had very good reasoning to call me town, this is grossly simplifying it to "being quite active and giving reads d1".

Her whole 180 on me reeks of scum motivation and agenda. She herself says she doesn't think commuter and n3 tracker can't coexists, but is forced to finally 180 on me, as continuing to read me as town while I pushed her clearly wasn't working.

Sigh, we're losing today, aren't we?

I'll give it one final try tomorrow to change your minds.

[Hectic]

Dave heavily focusing on mechanics is very scummy too. He's capable of having perfectly fine alignment-based reads as town. 3882 is a really suspect way to land on shelly!town

[Hectic]

as i said i think the game is over as well. dave is hardly around so impossible to engage with but seems to be leaning towards believing shelly (?) and plus has no interest in trying to solve my alignment

[Hectic]

i understand that i am biased but i genuinely believe that shellys claim was really a bad and i dont think an experienced player would ever really buy it due to the lack of inconsistensy and poor logic. in my opinion it is very easy to deconstruct the fake claim but dave seems to have some kind of mechanical analysis that makes it more believable and plus says "sure it could be scummy but i dont think she would do that", its really not easy to work with

I agree, and the way shelly has postured after claiming is so obvscum, just from hypothesizing about "track millers", not claiming the guilty straight away, thinking you could be a town PR who targeted duppin, all the stuff on day 1 I was scumreading her for...

Why do you think Dave is town and UNO is scum now?

[Hectic]

>shelly is obvscum guys

>DAE THINK SHELLY IS TOO SCUMMY TO BE SCUM

>guys, she's scummy because she's scum

>NO SHE WOULDN'T DO SCUMMY THINGS IF SHE WAS SCUM

[Hectic]

oh i see what caused the confusion, i meant that dave seems to have some kind of mechanical analysis that makes shellys claim more believable to him for some reason

I see

[Hectic]

hectic is also very good scum and can capitualise on my misplays as n3 tracker. I could have easily guiltied lurker!dave for the easy win if I was scum or could have guiltied plus following my trajectories throughout the game.

Completely ignoring that she could be scum with Dave lol

Also, why do you think I'm good at scum? You've only seen town!me.

[Hectic]

but yeah point is there is a town between dave and plus and its not possible to work with whoever it is because one isnt around (i understand if youre busy, but that does not change the fact) and the other one straight up isnt trying. the fact that plus had mixed replacements up all the way to mylo is honestly a bit ridiculous

Nah, Plus seems really towny this day, and I don't think he's ever scum with shelly because of Jacko/shelly interactions. It's probably just Dave, but outside chance of UNOwen.

[Hectic]

it doesn't matter whether scum targets Plus or you to win (if it's Dave + shelly)

[Hectic]

???

scum win with majority tonight. I'm confused

[Hectic]

Hectic why did you not push for a mass claim earlier?

I didn't want scum to know I was a commuter, and thought I could convince everyone of shelly!scum without claiming.

[Hectic]

Oh, you want to no launch?

[Hectic]

VOTE: No launch

[Hectic]

VOTE: No elim

[Hectic]

It should be obvious what I'm implying. I mean, I may as well say it at this point, as I'm an unlikely nightkill now. I didn't want them to know I was a commuter because I wanted them to target me tonight.

[Hectic]

It's in the situation where we launched today, we'd go to 5 tomorrow and have 2 phases

[Hectic]

Yeah

[Hectic]

I haven't caught up completely, but once again, I outed the gunsmith clear without thinking as soon as I saw it, since honestly, I didn't think bugspray would die in the night even with a good clear on them. I later regretted it and even PMed some of my frustration to Morning lol

aaa, I wish I had some more WIM to fight but I really can't be asked right now. duppin, can you please obvtown or something? I feel like the game is lost either way now, since even if I'm horribly wrong and duppin is scum, I'm gonna be mislaunched for the loss tomorrow at this rate.

hectic is now officially flailing

ehhhh im fine with no elim if we just get duppin tmr then hectic and finish the job off

seriously. another thing is that dave is a mechanically-oriented player, and im a newb at heart, so why wouldn't me and dave talk about the best claim to make? dave/me makes no sense at all, uno/me doesn't make sense because UNO can just push through and dave/uno/shelly/plus all vote duppin and finish the job.

me/hectic and me/duppin are impossible. I am not paired with anyone here.

even though you can say me/dave/plus have been more individually scummy, scum is a TEAM and simply the only way to explain this mylo is that hectic/duppin are scum

You've provided good reasons for everyone here not being partnered with you expect for Dave, it's pretty impressive. Pretty sure you claimed a guilty on duppin because you thought people would side with you, and you were correct! Plus and UNOwen both believe you over duppin, so I'm not sure why you're saying it was a bad claim and that you/Dave wouldn't make it.

It's shelly/Dave.

[Hectic]

shelly and everyone had very good reasoning to call me town, this is grossly simplifying it to "being quite active and giving reads d1".

The town case on you was simply being active and giving reads.

I challenge anyone (other than the Confirmed Scum) to tell me otherwise

It wasn't. It was for proactive and genuine solving and good tone. Point is that you went from thinking I was likely town to thinking I'm definitely scum after my commuter claim. You realise you have to push back at me now and win everyone else's votes, so this is far more beneficial to you than saying there's scum in [Dave/UNOwen] and that Hectic is town.

[Hectic]

im just going to fix the solve as hectic/duppin

n3 tracker and 2s commuter cannot co-exist, but lets think about this
RS is one of the strongest TPRs
weak FN is self confirmable and generates alignment results
Informed GS is a pretty strong investigtative
and when you add 2s commuter (which basically cannot die at night if used well) to it it's too much town protective power for one (unless there's something like a full strongman but commuter beats strongman) and quite townsided

imagine that setup but with n3 tracker. for one, n3 tracker is possibly dying before the shot is used up, and all the PRs visit here giving ample opportunity for false guilties. I would say its a much more balanced setup.

hectic's claim does not make sense even if I did not exist

I'd like to once again point out that weak FN can be annoying design because it'll eventually put the setup on evens which is no fun. Hence why Morning's thrown in two ways for town to get back on odds through night actions - the commuter and the Rolestopper. It makes PERFECT sense setup-wise.

Gunsmith is not super OP because it can get false innos on the doc, so every clear means less until the mafia doc is flipped. In this case we got lucky and it happened to be Noraa.

This setup (without the tracker obv) is pretty balanced, if you look back at normal game history this one is less townsided than a majority of games.

Also, the Rolestopper has a chance to prevent the gunsmith from getting checks, so I think it's fine.

I was actually misreading shelly's post yesterday. I thought she was saying "it's not impossible that Hectic and I's roles co-exist", but she was actually saying we CAN'T co-exist, lol.

[Hectic]

Why did you only wait 2 minutes if you wanted to test the wagon speed?

seeing that it was quite obvious bait

i decided against it

This clearly isn't what you were making out here:

Uhhh, what

I was trying to see if anyone would jump on.

it's indicative of scum!jv tbh

You were actually implying Jacko was scum because no one jumped on in the 2 minute period.

Saudade, you're overreacting, there's been a page of discussion on it, and I don't think there's much else to say on it anyway. What do you think of:

shelly's 2 minute reaction test, which she said implied Jacko was scum, but then later backpedalled on:

Why did you only wait 2 minutes if you wanted to test the wagon speed?

seeing that it was quite obvious bait

i decided against it

This clearly isn't what you were making out here:

Uhhh, what

I was trying to see if anyone would jump on.

it's indicative of scum!jv tbh

You were actually implying Jacko was scum because no one jumped on in the 2 minute period.

Also, this backpedal which clearly isn't true:

VOTE: shellyc

I have no idea how you manage to roll scum so much.

the way you flip on me concerns me a tiny bit

the way you flip on me concerns me a tiny bit

Something something OMGUS for the 3rd time this game

concern != omgus

like, im concerned by how scum might manipulate Mr. Jester to vote wrong lategame.

I'm just trying to figure out if town!shelly is willing to lie to defend herself.

Could everyone please read through these two posts, and tell me that town!shelly is lying in good faith, rather than this just being scum!shelly lying in bad faith? Because she is 100% lying in these cases.

In the first, she loes about her "bait wagon" on Jacko. First arguing she was doing it if anyone followed, when called out by me on why she only waited 2 minutes, she flailed (I will be using this buzzword since shelly is a big fan) and said she decided against using it since it was "obvious bait". HOWEVER, she was saying here- ah I'm afraid people aren't going to understand this unless I carefully guide them through what happened, I'll do this properly when I'm not on mobile.

[Hectic]

(IGNORE PREVIOUS POST, I WILL OUTLINE A CLEARER CASE SOON)

I'll handhold you all through this if I have to.

[Hectic]

Our roles can coexist, UNOwen, that's why. As I mentioned, it'd be townsided but a lot of normal are really townsided nowadays, it's kind of a problem.

3650 is in the case that scum have rolecopped me and found out I'm a commuter. I wanted to give the impression I was out of shots.

[Hectic]

- Why did you think you could convince everyone to ignore your own advice about mass claiming before executing?

Do you mean after I started pushing shelly? Because I started hard scumreading her and thought others would also see her as obvscum.

[Hectic]

Massclaiming is also less important when you're launching in a conflict where you know for a fact 1 is scum, and no else has spoken up, indicating there's no other useful info in the other players.

[Hectic]

That's fair, you'd be playing optimally.

[Hectic]

Where are you at percentage-wise on shelly/duppin?

[Hectic]

Would it help if I showed all the times I softed tracker in the hopes scum would notice and nightkill me for it?

[Hectic]

duppin stayed behind

I thought this was pretty blatant lol

[Hectic]

Readslist before I call it a night. I'll try and keep a sorted list for this game, useful for keeping

track

of my thoughts.

bugspray
MiniMegabyte
JacksonVirgo
duppin
Redados

UNOwen, NorwegianboyEE, Mundivore (Null)

Noraa
Saudade
Grendel
shellyc
Odd Day Jester

[Hectic]

I'm fine with Redados's answer regarding why he's less emotive this game btw. It's what I figured and at times I get this "this is really irritating but I'm going to stay cool" vibe from him when replying to scumreads line Noraa's and I find that kind of tone really town-indicative.

Still need to catchup on page 49 to 54(?). I'll probably skim some stuff but

will still be on the lookout

for anything particularly towny or scummy.

[Hectic]

Think that's all of them.

And before you come in and say I'm scum who was planning to fakeclaim tracker, shelly, I would've just CCed you tracker claim in that case with one of my own. Pretty sure my tracker crumbs would've won out over your lack of any crumbs.

[Hectic]

YES ONOWEN

you have no idea how happy I am to see you finally seeing the light. now we just need to get that + guy out of the darkness

[Hectic]

Morning in shambles. She roots for scum in her games I'm pretty sure

[Hectic]

Hello, friends and foes of the "Mini Normal 2168 | So Many Bats! | Day 4" thread. This is a case outlining why shelly is scum. I hope this helps, and I ask that you read this in its entirety.

Let's set the scene: It's early in day 1. Odd Day Jester is being a buffoon acting like a jester (what an idiot), people are enjoying their lives and bats hang merrily from their perches.

---

ARTIFACT 1:

shelly enters the scene.

Im a bit shocked how you just ignore the reasonings to "townpass" duppin and majority TR on noraa I wonder if this is alignment indicative

this is a scumslip

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

Jacko points out some weird things about shelly, one of them being shelly is ignoring the majority TR on Noraa and was still pushing her (this is a great point in hindsight, Jacko!). shelly claims this is a scumslip and proceeds to vote Jacko.

Im a bit shocked how you just ignore the reasonings to "townpass" duppin and majority TR on noraa I wonder if this is alignment indicative

this is a scumslip

Lmfao

the "lol' defense, how scum indicative.

I'm not entirely sure if shelly's cockiness and/or retaliatory attitude this game is AI. I only have known their scum games.

Jacko is amused. shelly is being shelly. It's very strange, but this isn't hugely scummy for shelly.

I WAS BAITING.

not directly attacking me for bullshitting. TMI

shelly then reveals she was "baiting". This post is 1 minute and 39 seconds after her initial vote.

I was planning to test the wagon speed on jv, but turns out everyone dipped

The vote was apparently all a plan to test Jacko's "wagon speed". However, shelly waited for just

99 seconds

before she decided "everyone dipped". She clearly had no intent to test the wagon speed on Jacko in the first place, or she would've waited longer than

99 seconds.

Uhhh, what

I was trying to see if anyone would jump on.

it's indicative of scum!jv tbh

She then says that the fact no one jumped on is actually "indicative of scum!jv", despite just saying she pulled out of the test because everyone had supposedly dipped. And still, no one voting for Jacko for the

99 seconds

after she voted is indicative of

absolutely nothing

in a forum setting. shelly does not really believe what she's saying here, she is not stupid.

DO NOT townread this for being "random" or "too scummy to be scum", scum!shelly's plan this entire game is to do random things, fake random reads, and post without thinking. If you look back at any of her scumgames, it's how she always plays as scum.

---

INTERMISSION

Okay, so the bats on So Many Bats Avenue have clearly been a little spooked by these developments. A few can even be seen flying up to the blood moon, led by Morning Tweet. The little rascals, I'm sure they don't have any ulterior motives.

---

ARTIFACT 2:

VOTE: shellyc

I have no idea how you manage to roll scum so much.

I am shocked by what shelly is pulling. I immediately vote her, thinking there is no way this can't be scum.

the way you flip on me concerns me a tiny bit

She informs me that she's concerned by how I flipped on her. Prior to this point, shelly has been townreading me, and I have been townleaning her. The "concern" in this post is clearly meant to convey suspicion on my 180 on her.

the way you flip on me concerns me a tiny bit

Something something OMGUS for the 3rd time this game

Jacko points out that she's OMGUSing again.

concern != omgus

like, im concerned by how scum might manipulate Mr. Jester to vote wrong lategame.

shelly FLAILS (using this word for you, shelly), not wanting to be seen as OMGUSing yet again, and states that she actually meant a far more convoluted definition when she said "concerned". This is

clearly

a lie.

Yeah fuck off you meant that. Lmfao
VOTE: shellyc

Jacko rightly calls shelly out and votes her. I miss you, Jacko! You were compromised and repped out with Mini because you found she was scum, didn't you?

---

In both of these cases, shelly is very obvious

lying

. If you believe she is town, you have to believe she's lying in good faith, and not just scum that's lying in bad faith to protect or attempt to improve her image - this is the far far more likely scenario.

I was planning on doing some more but I'm tired, so this'll do for now. I'll case her later stuff later, if Plus still isn't on board.

[Hectic]

UNOwen, the man who was leaning towards it being shelly/dave, and was working me was killed. What a shock.

Plus, you're the person who matters the most in the game right now. What are your thoughts, and why do you believe shelly is town, and duppin is scum?

[Hectic]

<3

[Hectic]

Mhm, the classic WIFOM defence. Absolutely no one would question Plus dying here, given he was UTR by the end of yesterday. A Hectic/duppin team would absolutely kill Plus, given he's been repeating his thoughts of duppin/Hectic over and over again yesterday.

What can I doooooooooooo to make you see the light, +++++++++

[Hectic]

You can argue about WIFOM all you want, but most nightkills are just obvious for a reason and not frames. People don't actually care about night kill analysis enough to make WIFOM kills worth it, so you made the correct decision here.

Anyway, I don't think a long extended debate where we argue in circles about the nightkill is productive for Plus, so you should put your WIM to use in the Speakeasy instead. I heard they have some good Roast threads in there.

[Hectic]

yikes

Please talk about it before you decide?

[Hectic]

Woah

[Hectic]

This is incredible, I really wasn't expecting this.

Will read everything very closely and then probably hammer shelly anyway.

[Hectic]

Thank you, Plus for reevaluating.

[Hectic]

Ja

[Hectic]

I mean, I'm not scum, I wouldn't troll like this.

I just haven't had time to read up yet. Will get to it before I sleep.

[Hectic]

VC 5.1

Bat Fact #27:

ame bat

[/mech]

Greatest bat fact so far.

Mod Notes:

（＾ｖ＾）[/area][/size][/mech]

I agree, this is exciting!

[Hectic]

I'm about to hammer you, shelly. Any last words?

[Hectic]

lol I thought you'd at least try and change my mind instead of scum claiming.

You think I'm the type of player to troll everyone as scum and stall the thread for a day?

[Hectic]

Fair enough. Well played to both you and Noraa. If not for some unfortunate events (BM targeting Noraa), and some unfortunate decisions (claiming a guilty on duppin), you've would've had this one.

Dave, please save us all some time and concede instead of making us wait the night :]


v]shellyc[/v]

Wait, wrong bat


VOTE: shellyc[/v

Although cute, that doesn't really fit a gif that should coincide with a hammer...


VOTE: shellyc

This one should do the job

[Hectic]

VOTE: dave

[Hectic]

When you really think about it, we're all winners at the end of the day. Except for the ones that lost.

I don't allow "Bah" posts in my ruleset. -MT

Is shelly not gonna be given a harsh warning for imitating the mod here?

[Hectic]

Same. I initially misread my PM and thought I was town for a bit. I'm a Neutral Survivor though.

And nah, pretty sure Morning Tweet would include a bat GIF with that edit if it was really her.

[Hectic]

Thanks for modding, Morning! I enjoyed the bat facts and GIFs.

and yeah, full credit goes to Norwee for this win. He was in my head the entire time.

[Hectic]

oh and also im sigging this: Dream as if you'll live as Noraa, live as if you'll die as shelly

Just a good motto to live by, really. My next alt will be an amalgamation of shelly/Noraa's playstyles.

[Hectic]

My replaced out player posted about their replace-out prior to it, and the person replacing in for them started posting before they confirmed their role PM

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Oof, I think the game is probably compromised then? Guess this should count as a draw for all parties.

Poor Hectic is repeatedly crumbing tracker in hopes the scumteam sees it

They are never gonna see it

But they are considering killing him after Norwe simply based off of experience, so.. that's good?

I should've took from the BM school of crumbing. Just made it really obvious and asked for a doc on me or something.