Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[Alchemist21]

Come on, people.

5 pages already is a bit much. I see Danfloor is IC, so that’s good. If I recall correctly he does have good reads as Town.

Let me go back and cite the post but tbere was something I didn’t like from Elements.

VOTE: Elements

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE: NPOM[/unvote

I don't like this
put your vote back

This post. Elements why are you telling other people to move their vote this early in the game?

[Alchemist21]

If I recall correctly he does have good reads as Town.

Uh...????

Is that not the case?

[Alchemist21]

And? Dannfloor is an Innocent Child. He’s already confirmed Town, so I don’t see how your statement is relevant to either him or me.

[Alchemist21]

^That’s at NPOM btw

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE: NPOM[/unvote

I don't like this
put your vote back

This post. Elements why are you telling other people to move their vote this early in the game?

I was going for a "if we can get an E-1 wagon on NPOM super early that would soft town clear him"

Pretty sure he wouldn’t appreciate being put to L-1 this early after the last game. My scum buddy got away with a D1 quickhammer there.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist21: In all fairness, I caught your scumbuddy because he quickhammered. I'm more than willing to 1v1 in this case if we get the same result. Hopefully town would be smart enough to yeet the hammerer this time tho.

After that game I wouldn't have enough faith in a Town to risk it tbh.

And yeah you're overthinking my post about Dannfloor. The wording was odd but I was kinda tired when I posted that, and I don't think it takes away from the main point of the post.

[Alchemist21]

Scum already know who is what.

They also don’t want other people finding that out.

Well that's the real trick, isn't it?

YES! Someone who appreciates this quote as much as I do!

[Alchemist21]

Also before people start speedwagoning Lunar I'll say that he is also very limbaity. His behavior in 2043 sent him straight to the lynch D1.

I was gonna ask if that happened after reading the earlier post. Not surprised. I'd be willing to give Lunar a chance too; I have noticed most D1 eliminations tend to be on people who don't quite fit in. People are quick to slap a scum label on behavior that's odd but not actually scummy. As scum I lean on that pattern on D1's.

[Alchemist21]

I appreciate not wanting to lynch town, but there is also the possibility he is scum and do you really want him in ELLO?

There's a pretty big middleground between not wanting someone's head after 1 bad post and not wanting them in ELO. We'll have time to give them a chance and sort them properly before ELO.

[Alchemist21]

Basically what I am saying is that Lunar can sometimes make these stupid posts so stuff that is stupid but not fully scummy shouldn't be treated as scummy.
If Lunar does make a scummy posts though, then there is an excuse to vote him.

I’m not looking for “excuses” to vote anyone. I feel like LM’s entrance was wack, 5 pages isn’t bad by any measure imo and he made a dumb joke. He doesn’t know how to act rn, which might be newbish or general awkwardness but the feeling when I saw it was scum with a bad entrance.

Is this just a gut read? I complained about the page count too and I could see someone deciding to be lazy and put down a dumb vote without reading anything. Is there something explainable that makes it more scummy than dummy?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, I'm curious about your current thoughts on Elements. You voted him early on , asking him about their post, and havent seemed to elaborate much on the subject since then.

I can see his point in his response but I still think telling someone else to move their vote that early was trying to be too controlling.

[Alchemist21]

As much as I have been talking with NPOM, he hasn't shown anything AI yet.
Kazyan, LM, and 2nd are all out there still.
Alchemist...kinda feels like he attacked Elements in spite of me but that's just a guess and otherwise he is null.

What do you mean “in spite of you?”

[Alchemist21]

It just seemed a bit of conspicuous timing for him to come in like that. He posted 2 things others had posted as well, which seems like trying to fit in but not knowing how so he just emulated other people.

I like this. VOTE: Lunar Martian

btw I've noticed a lot of new lingo. Apologies in advance if I accidentally use archaic terms.

Even though the second line is clearly not connected to the first at face value, it reads like the second line is trying to absolve Papa Zito of responsibility for a bad vote because Papa is out of date and rusty.

I think you’re overthinking the second line.

[Alchemist21]

Why do you assume malicious intentions from Ben rather than just a new player trying to be helpful and help a fellow newbie? Sell me.

The level of investment. I think town would have put the counter evidence on the table and left it at that but he dug in his heels to protect you. He has some level of personal motive to defend you that I doubt town has rn.

I still don’t see how Lunar’s response led to your vote switch. Ben was speaking out for Lunar before the response and nothing about Lunar’s response should have changed your opinion on Lunar if you’re calling it NAI. It seems to me you either would have voted Ben sooner or kept your vote on Lunar.

[Alchemist21]

As much as I have been talking with NPOM, he hasn't shown anything AI yet.
Kazyan, LM, and 2nd are all out there still.
Alchemist...kinda feels like he attacked Elements in spite of me but that's just a guess and otherwise he is null.

What do you mean “in spite of you?”

Ok, back to this.
I feel like I looked over the Element's thing enough to the point that Elements didn't even want to speak of it again, and then you came in and argued for the exact same thing. It could be possible you missed my argument but attacking Elements for the same thing felt like you were trying to push a read that I was pushing, but as I said there isn't any evidence of such and it's just a guess.

Yeah I wasn’t thinking about you at all when I pushed Elements. I just didn’t like what I saw from Elements.

[Alchemist21]

I think a sink-or-swim atmosphere would be more apt to revealing his alignment versus what you were doing.

Awkward people sink. A lot.

[Alchemist21]

I wanted Lunar’s response before I switched, and I wasn’t 100% switching there. Seems kinda plain.

Ok so you were going to switch anwyay. If it hadn’t switched to Ben who would it have switched to?

[Alchemist21]

I guess that second part makes sense.

Why do you think LM sinking would be unlikely here?

[Alchemist21]

Alright Ben you can’t tell me I copied you on this one. Lol

[Alchemist21]

? Wasn't going too.

I know I’m just making a joke about the mindmeld.

[Alchemist21]

I guess that second part makes sense.

Why do you think LM sinking would be unlikely here?

Well ben had put into the thread that LM tends to be awkward, so we can use that to not jump to conclusions

What? This whole conversation started because people were jumping to those conclusions, and your push continued despite what we were saying, so how did you think that was going to prevent a sinking?

[Alchemist21]

I do think that the actions of Lunar, as a disruptor, are less important than the reactions to that disruption. And there has been a lot of reaction.

What do you make of the reactions?

[Alchemist21]

I thought his post was pretty scummy. I'd have him as a light scumread.

What didn’t you like about Kayzan’s post? Scumlean on me aside I thought it was a good one.

[Alchemist21]

Ok but question still stands, what did you think was scummy about the post you thought was scummy?

[Alchemist21]

Why am I getting prodded at less than 2 days?

[Alchemist21]

Anyway the power’s out at my job so let me go through this game if I can.

[Alchemist21]

Gamma/Alchemist/Hayker] lean more towards scum to varying levels of confidence.

Why do you think Hayker is scum?

RE: Elements, I haven’t moved my vote because most of the active posters have been coming across as Town to me and I don’t see a better vote.

[Alchemist21]

Always good to read the rules:

Activity - You must post at least once every 36 hours or I will Prod you.

Well that’s an unusual number.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: NPOM
let's roll
with my limited knowledge this seems like a better wager than Elements for the time being

NPOM is playing the same way he did as Town in the last game we played together.

[Alchemist21]

I still disagree with Dannflor's assessment of Elements, but:

1) I would rather not do this again,
2) Discussing such old posts isn't advancing the play state or anything,
3) Putting pressure elsewhere will get us more information,
4) When we have a lot of newer arguments to deal with, there are bigger fish to fry, and
5) Even if we get down to brass tacks, the Elements wagon isn't happening.

With all that in mind: UNVOTE: Elements

Penguin is now talking, but not actually saying much. I don't like it.

I'm willing to call Alchemist and Hayker as light scumreads. I know I used Hayker's post as a template with which to lay out my thoughts, but that doesn't remotely mean Hayker is town.

I don't know which of the three would be productive to put some info-squeezing pressure on--Hayker, Alchemist, or Penguin. They all have one vote each. The NPOM wagon is tempting, but I'd like more information from the sources that aren't giving as much of it; I might switch to NPOM if we get to 6 votes there. So...I'll just pick one. VOTE: Penguin

This just looks like thinly veiled IC sheeping to me.

[Alchemist21]

I’m always down for a haiku.

[Alchemist21]

I only count 6 syllables in the middle.

[Alchemist21]

Beautiful.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Alchemist21

I'm extremely curious about this vote.

Initially he read to me as someone putting in activity without much info coming out of him and I'm rather comfortable sitting on said vote for now.

Gamma/Alchemist/Hayker] lean more towards scum to varying levels of confidence.

Why do you think Hayker is scum?

This feels defensive and off especially as quote below is same post

Hayker seems more intent on justifying their actions then in actually following through with their actions (I can explain this more if needed).

As for Kazyan, don't let them Ryan you. if you are town, maybe they have motivation to shoot down your posts and frustrate you.

I didn’t see his reason for Hayker. I saw his reason for Gamma and would have asked about it if I hadn’t.

How are you getting “defensive” from that post as opposed to “he didn’t see that part?”

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Kayzan

I don’t buy the explanation in 376

[Alchemist21]

I'm not exactly a fan of this post, specifically the omnibus of reasons to unvote Elements. It looks like Kazyan is quite worried about the optics of that move.

100% correct. Previous posts by me have largely drawn an unexpected amount of shade because my rationale wasn't completely exhaustive, so I gave an exhaustive rationale this time. I'm comfortable with being called scummy for giving as much information as I can to the town.

That seems understandable but there's also the sheeping issues and I feel like it's a bit excessive even then?
I'm curious where Alchemist said anything about lack of optics concern though. Alchemist, if that is correct, why do you find that scummy of Kazyan?

I think their post was a bs reason made to hide that they’re sheeping the IC.

[Alchemist21]

I didn’t see his reason for Hayker. I saw his reason for Gamma and would have asked about it if I hadn’t.

How are you getting “defensive” from that post as opposed to “he didn’t see that part?”

well if it wasn't defensive then at best it was unhelpful. you're both not parsing the only only confirmed town's thoughts and just making noise.
it also wasn't that hard of a post to read.

Which interaction with Dann are you referring to here?

Him asking Dann a redundant question/noise

but in hindsight, that may be all I'm doing right now so I will no longer dwell on it.

There were several pieces to that post and I asked about the one read that I didn’t see the info for. Asking someone for their thoughts is the opposite of not trying to parse their thoughts.

Why do you think I would ask about one specific read out of many for any reason except what I’ve already told you?

[Alchemist21]

What information have you gained?

Basically, this post did it for me:

I think their post was a bs reason made to hide that they’re sheeping the IC.

Two things happened here: 1) Alchemist

accused

me of something that I

admitted

to before that post. 2) Alchemist expressed no confusion about how to read me. Basically everyone else ranges from "Kazyan is hard to read, but I think they're scum" to "I have no clue what this twerp is trying to say", but Alchemist seems confident.

So it kinda looks like Alchemist is so focused on pushing me that any extra posts I make aren't relevant. The only way that makes sense to me, as the confusing-to-read newbie, is if he's not actually an uninformed vanilla townie.

No, you admitted to sheeping after I accused you of it. Nice try though.

[Alchemist21]

Lol the VC flavor
What's up with Alchemist?

Do you mean me or the wagon on me?

[Alchemist21]

Would you share your current read on Elements, Kazyan, and I?

Kayzan I’m scumreading.

Elements I’m also scumreading but to a lesser extent.

You I’m Townreading. I’m annoyed by your push on me but I don’t think it comes from scum. It feels more like Town that actually thought they had something.

[Alchemist21]

The only way that makes sense to me, as the confusing-to-read newbie,

is if he's not actually an uninformed vanilla townie.

I forgot to talk about this last night but this part here looks like role fishing. Why is there an implicit assumption that Town me has to be a VT? The vanilla Townie callout is so specific that it makes me think Kayzan thinks I’m a PR and wants to push me to a claim.

[Alchemist21]

Come on, people.

5 pages already is a bit much. I see Danfloor is IC, so that’s good. If I recall correctly he does have good reads as Town.

Let me go back and cite the post but tbere was something I didn’t like from Elements.

VOTE: Elements

It’s based on this.

It’s not a strong read but I haven’t seen anything from you that reverses the read.

[Alchemist21]

Replacing ben dover123.

Dang there goes my twin.

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE: NPOM[/unvote

I don't like this
put your vote back

This post. Elements why are you telling other people to move their vote this early in the game?

I was going for a "if we can get an E-1 wagon on NPOM super early that would soft town clear him"

Yeah this isn’t good reasoning and doesn’t alleviate my suspicion that you were trying control the gamestate.

[Alchemist21]

Because you were demanding it, and it was the 1 vote that had strayed from the wagon.

I still don’t understand why you thought an early E-1 would have softcleared NPOM.

[Alchemist21]

We still haven't had a proper wagon today which is somewhat disconcerting.

I’d say we’ve had a few.

[Alchemist21]

We still haven't had a proper wagon today which is somewhat disconcerting.

I’d say we’ve had a few.

Have we had even one go past 4 votes?

I'm counting the wagons that hit 3+. I can double check if any have hit 4.

[Alchemist21]

Vote count 1.03

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-04 23:00:00).

execution

Papa Zito [4]:

NoPowerOverMe, Hayker, PenguinPower, Kazyan

NoPowerOverMe [3]:

Papa Zito,

Dannflor

, Elements

Elements [1]:

ben dover123

Not voting [5]:

Alchemist21, HeWhoSwims, 2ndchosen1, Gamma Emerald, Lunar Martian

mod notes

~ everyone has confirmed!
~ penguinpower v/la for a few days

flavour

Vote count 1.05

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-04 23:00:00).

execution

Lunar Martian [4]:

Gamma Emerald, PenguinPower, Papa Zito, Elements

Elements [2]:

Alchemist21, Kazyan

Kazyan [2]:

ben dover123, NoPowerOverMe

Papa Zito [1]:

Hayker

NoPowerOverMe [1]:

Dannflor

Gamma Emerald [1]:

Lunar Martian

Not voting [2]:

HeWhoSwims, 2ndchosen1

mod notes

~ penguinpower v/la for a few days

flavour

Vote count 1.06

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-04 23:00:00).

execution

Elements [4]:

Alchemist21, Kazyan, Hayker, NoPowerOverMe

Lunar Martian [2]:

PenguinPower, Papa Zito

NoPowerOverMe [2]:

Dannflor

, ben dover123

Gamma Emerald [1]:

Lunar Martian

ben dover123 [1]:

Gamma Emerald

Hayker [1]:

Elements

Not voting [2]:

HeWhoSwims, 2ndchosen1

mod notes

~ penguinpower v/la for a few days

flavour

Vote count 1.09

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-04 23:00:00).

execution

NoPowerOverMe [4]:

ben dover123, PenguinPower, Lunar Martian, HeWhoSwims

Elements [2]:

Alchemist21, Hayker

Kazyan [2]:

Papa Zito, Gamma Emerald

PenguinPower [2]:

NoPowerOverMe, Kazyan

Alchemist21 [1]:

2ndchosen1

Hayker [1]:

Dannflor

Gamma Emerald [1]:

Elements

Not voting [0]:

mod notes

~ yeet

flavour

All these had 4.

[Alchemist21]

Oh. Your definition of wagon might be a bit too strict.

[Alchemist21]

Oh. Your definition of wagon might be a bit too strict.

I disagree. There’s no real threat below that threshold.

Do your wagonomics reads care more about the people getting wagoned or the people on the wagon?

[Alchemist21]

Alright. I think the threat aspect is less relevant when looking at people on the wagon, but I'm mainly just trying to understand how you approach the game. I have no further questions.

[Alchemist21]

I'd like to really push consideration for a yeet of Hayker. They haven't done much for me to consider them town and their interactions have felt "don't rock the boat"ish, while their 'defense' of townreading Zito was, um, to be kind - fabricated - and read like a slip of being too confident in their ability to "save a town" player and reeked of being informed. I can do a bigger post if people want more persuasion but 547 pinged me hard enough to go from wanting to vote NPOM to being more convinced Hayker needs to eat a yeet. If not I'll switch over to a leading wagon to make sure we get a yeet but we should really really yeet the shit out of Hayker.

I’d like to see the bigger post on Hayker. You’re the only one voting them and I don’t see what’s so bad about 547 that seals the deal for you.

[Alchemist21]

I’m not claiming for a wagon where not one person actually said why they’re voting me.

[Alchemist21]

give me an alternative that isn't penguin

Kayzan.

[Alchemist21]

Hayker is scum

How?

Take a look at their 12 post ISO. It'll take you all of 5 minutes.

The only attempt to figure anything out beyond dusting the surface is exclusively focused on Zito (457, 547 [look at that pseudosymmetry!]), using 11 year old meta in 457 and then flat out selling mistruths in 547. I like Zito. I do not want to yeet Zito, both because he is giving me some town vibes here and also because I like Zito. But Zito has not "come out swinging hard." I haven't felt any pressure being applied behind his votes - he's parked on Kayzan right now despite not mentioning him since post 301 on 12/28. I see his town mindset based on some other things, but 547 is straight up scum telling they know too much and fucking up when they need to justify a TR. They tried to feign some interest in Alchemist in 151 but never followed it up.

177 and 249 are opportunistic attempts to sway something to Elements while ignoring Elements' declaration that they were going to essentially troll a bit at the start of the game. Elements re-explains the joke in 266, and then they switch to "active lurking" in 268 to justify their continued stay. 373 is another fun question with no follow up, nor response to Elements's reply. They asked on Tuesday. It's Saturday.

The rest is background fluff meant not to rock the boat - nothing in 314, 319, and 422 does anything to move the game forward, to suss out Elements alignment more, or to branch to another read. Over the course of 24 hours they popped in 4 (373 was in this window and I've already touched on that) posts that could have just been posts of a 404'd image and it would've been the same contribution as them.

I agree there’s an odd focus on Zito there and the TMI point makes sense.

The tunneling on Elements is more NAI and I would only think 177 and 259 are opportunistic if Lunar is scum. Not sure why scum would feel a need to focus on Elements there and Town wouldn’t otherwise.

I could vote Hayker if need be based on the first part but the rest doesn’t really sell me on it.

And in fairness re 151 I had already said all I had to say regarding Elements so my response wasn’t something Hayker could have really followed up on.

[Alchemist21]

I do feel like Alhcemist hasn't really been solving like town!him does

I’m gonna leave this link here and say “deja vu”

viewtopic.php?p=12270447#p12270447

[Alchemist21]

Ok, you don't like the supporting arguments, but how about the fact that they came in here, looked around, made some observations on things currently happening (wagon state, interacting with who they were voting) but completely ignored the post that was "Hey you're scum!"? Like this has already been pointed out at the time you made this post - do you not think that's a questionable thing to do at all?

I agree it’s questionable, and as I said I’m willing to switch to Hayker.

[Alchemist21]

but I do think the wagon on him tends towards clean regardless of his alignment. Like he could be town, but also his reaction to both the Hayker wagon and his own is weird. He refused to claim because no one had states there reasoning, but doesn't really do any deeper dive into the people who wagoned him and who might've been most suspicious. It just seems strange coming from town to not look at that further, after all the entire wagon on him can't be scum.

You were one of the voters.

Elements was another; we know how I feel about that slot already.

I called out Gamma’s vote as being just like the last time he misread me.

The others? Who the fuck knows. They could be scum thinking I’m an easy target, but if scum think I’m a PR they could be avoiding my wagon expecting all the blowback to be on Town when I claim.

[Alchemist21]

I called out Gamma’s vote as being just like the last time he misread me.

do you think his repetition of that mistake is alignment indicative one way or another?

Makes him more likely Town imo. The vote looked gross and opportunistic, but so did the one I linked and Gamma’s been bad at reading me for several games now.

[Alchemist21]

Fuck it, I’ll claim since we only have a day left.

C

ome

o

n,

p

eople.

5 pages already is a bit much. I see Danfloor is IC, so that’s good. If I recall correctly he does have good reads as Town.

Let me go back and cite the post but tbere was something I didn’t like from Elements.

VOTE: Elements

2-shot Macho Cop

I crumbed in my very first post which is why I have reason to believe scum could have picked up on it and avoided my wagon.

[Alchemist21]

Y’all need to vote Kayzan now.

[Alchemist21]

Good game everyone