Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[Lunar Martian]

5 pages already? You people are nuts.

VOTE: dannflor

Pretty confident in this vote.

[Lunar Martian]

Basically what I am saying is that Lunar can sometimes make these stupid posts so stuff that is stupid but not fully scummy shouldn't be treated as scummy.
If Lunar does make a scummy posts though, then there is an excuse to vote him.

I’m not looking for “excuses” to vote anyone. I feel like LM’s entrance was wack, 5 pages isn’t bad by any measure imo and he made a dumb joke. He doesn’t know how to act rn, which might be newbish or general awkwardness but the feeling when I saw it was scum with a bad entrance.

Is this just a gut read? I complained about the page count too and I could see someone deciding to be lazy and put down a dumb vote without reading anything. Is there something explainable that makes it more scummy than dummy?

It’s a vibe thing too. It just seemed a bit of conspicuous timing for him to come in like that. He posted 2 things others had posted as well, which seems like trying to fit in but not knowing how so he just emulated other people.
I feel like I might have something because the last time I had I read I felt like I do on LM on, it panned out. So I think I’m right again here.

Or the simpler explanation is that there was too much posting, a bunch of people didn't have time to read, and so we said similar things. But you can twist facts to fit whatever narrative you want if you try hard enough. Have fun with that.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Lunar Martian]

Would be nice if we let them respond instead of giving convenient excuses.

Just a thought.

I'm not giving excuses, this awkwardness that you guys are talking about is from a newbie rather than scummy awkwardness.
What is weird is how LM continued to joke when he knew that we were past RVS by page 5.

Why are you speaking for me? Can you stop? You're making a bunch of assumptions about what I think, say, and do, and it seems like everything you say about me just makes people think I'm Mafia. Most of your assumptions are wrong. For example, why should I assume that RVS is over on page 5 if I haven't read the game?

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Elements

Ben is my top town read and seems like he knows what he is doing.

This feels like pocketing rather than solving.

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

This post is OK, but it seems like a really easy thing to say. Why pick on elements and not the other people who are voting for me?

[Lunar Martian]

It just seemed a bit of conspicuous timing for him to come in like that. He posted 2 things others had posted as well, which seems like trying to fit in but not knowing how so he just emulated other people.

I like this. VOTE: Lunar Martian

btw I've noticed a lot of new lingo. Apologies in advance if I accidentally use archaic terms.

Even though the second line is clearly not connected to the first at face value, it reads like the second line is trying to absolve Papa Zito of responsibility for a bad vote because Papa is out of date and rusty.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Elements

Ben is my top town read and seems like he knows what he is doing.

This feels like pocketing rather than solving.

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

This post is OK, but it seems like a really easy thing to say. Why pick on elements and not the other people who are voting for me?

Townhunting is a major part of my game.

Doesn't feel like you're really evaluating whether Ben is Town though. It's just a compliment and an invitation to work together, not a reason for thinking someone is Town.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: ben dover
LM’s response seemed okay.

Voting Ben seems like the wrong response to something being "OK". I like my vote on you even better now.

[Lunar Martian]

I think the kids call it "trolling".

[Lunar Martian]

Why do you assume malicious intentions from Ben rather than just a new player trying to be helpful and help a fellow newbie? Sell me.

[Lunar Martian]

Well ben had put into the thread that LM tends to be awkward, so we can use that to not jump to conclusions

???
LM is awkward and that awkwardness got him to sink right to the bottom in 2043.

I strongly disagree. But it really isn't important. What is important is that you're doing the same thing I called you out for there. You're overconfident and pushing things you know nothing about. And in this game its also making people think you're Mafia. Maybe you should chill out, friend.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Elements

Ben is my top town read and seems like he knows what he is doing.

This feels like pocketing rather than solving.

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

This post is OK, but it seems like a really easy thing to say. Why pick on elements and not the other people who are voting for me?

Townhunting is a major part of my game.

Doesn't feel like you're really evaluating whether Ben is Town though. It's just a compliment and an invitation to work together, not a reason for thinking someone is Town.

Any response, NoPower?

[Lunar Martian]

I strongly disagree. But it really isn't important. What is important is that you're doing the same thing I called you out for there. You're overconfident and pushing things you know nothing about. And in this game its also making people think you're Mafia. Maybe you should chill out, friend.

In what way am I overconfident? Who thinks I'm Mafia besides Gamma?

But yes, I will accept your offer to take a small break.

There's a difference between people thinking you're Town and you helping the Town.

[Lunar Martian]

After some reflection, I believe the following people to be townsfolk: Gamma, Hayker maybe, Ben, Alchemist maybe, NoPower (although he needs to drop the "anyone who attacks the townblock is Mafia" shtick). That leaves seven people within which I'll be focusing my energy for now.
UNVOTE: Gamma

[Lunar Martian]

What do you make of the reactions?

Ben was pretty insistent on giving LM a chance there. Possibilities:
1) Ben and LM are both scum. If Lunar went down and it became obvious that they

were

scum, then Ben would be next on the shopping block. In addition to that, this is statistically unlikely.
2) Ben is scum and LM is not. Not really sure if we can weight this one more heavily or less heavily yet. Ben would be sticking their neck out pretty far this early, but Ben seems intelligent enough to WIFOM it and go for the play that makes them seem more trustworthy.
3) LM is scum and Ben is not. We've already discussed LM's actions. But Ben appears to be townhunting?
4) Both are townies. This is consistent with the experienced player reading the newbie as town correctly.

Gamma seems pushy about LM, but not in a way that reads scummy to me. Gamma was also pushy on me about being a Hectic alt. I think that's just how Gamma rolls; they seem townish to me.

No clue about NPOM. It's harder to follow why they're thinking what they're thinking.

Your inquisitive posts, Alchemist, make me slightly lean scum for you, since a low-info Socratic method seems like a good way to stir up suspicions. But it's such a slight lean that I'm not gonna talk myself into it.

No comment on Elements, because...yeah.

I'd like to hear more from 2ndchosen1, Hayker, and HeWhoSwims.

Which of the four scenarios do you think is most likely? None of this post really has any analysis.

[Lunar Martian]

After some reflection, I believe the following people to be townsfolk: Gamma, Hayker maybe, Ben, Alchemist maybe, NoPower (although he needs to drop the "anyone who attacks the townblock is Mafia" shtick). That leaves seven people within which I'll be focusing my energy for now.
UNVOTE: Gamma

Can you expand on your Gamma, Hayker, and Alchemist reads, please?

There's really not much to say beyond I have a gut feeling that they're Town.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Elements

Ben is my top town read and seems like he knows what he is doing.

This feels like pocketing rather than solving.

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

This post is OK, but it seems like a really easy thing to say. Why pick on elements and not the other people who are voting for me?

Townhunting is a major part of my game.

Doesn't feel like you're really evaluating whether Ben is Town though. It's just a compliment and an invitation to work together, not a reason for thinking someone is Town.

Any response, NoPower?

[Lunar Martian]

NoPower, why is Ben town to you?

[Lunar Martian]

Pushing this early seems weird, since there wasn't really anything to push about. Wagoning on an early disruption is vaguely scummy, as I've explained in a previous post of mine. There's no reason to OMGUS if you're town.

I'm happy to give more information to the town, but I'm not sure what to say besides repeating myself.

It's not weird in the least. You're not giving any indication of your thought process here. Pointing to someone else's post and saying "yeah that" doesn't tell me what

you're

thinking. I have to sort your slot. I have to figure out if you got a green or red role PM. The only way for me to do that is to get inside your head. Currently you're doing your level best to prevent me from doing so. The pushback and hand-waving only makes me more suspicious.

ok, but which do you prefer/find easier

This entire line of questioning is noise.

VOTE: Alchemist21

I'm extremely curious about this vote.

This all looks like someone who is trying very hard to look like Town.

[Lunar Martian]

NoPower, why is Ben town to you?

He seems engaged, uninformed and open-minded.

I'll give you engaged, but it actually seems that the engagement stems largely from being informed based on having a prior game with me, and not being open-minded and instead forming opinions and judgements based on that game in order to defend me while I was away. Those seem like generic buzz-wordy reasons to think someone is Town.

[Lunar Martian]

Yeah but like... who would you say seems informed? Or, what is his uninformedness in contrast to? Why does he stand out?

[Lunar Martian]

not being open-minded and instead forming opinions and judgements based on that game in order to defend me while I was away.

why is this suspicious to you?

I don't suspect Ben. I'm just questioning NoPower's logic.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: NoPower

I think phase one of the hunt is complete!

[Lunar Martian]

I still disagree with Dannflor's assessment of Elements, but:

1) I would rather not do this again,
2) Discussing such old posts isn't advancing the play state or anything,
3) Putting pressure elsewhere will get us more information,
4) When we have a lot of newer arguments to deal with, there are bigger fish to fry, and
5) Even if we get down to brass tacks, the Elements wagon isn't happening.

With all that in mind: UNVOTE: Elements

Penguin is now talking, but not actually saying much. I don't like it.

I'm willing to call Alchemist and Hayker as light scumreads. I know I used Hayker's post as a template with which to lay out my thoughts, but that doesn't remotely mean Hayker is town.

I don't know which of the three would be productive to put some info-squeezing pressure on--Hayker, Alchemist, or Penguin. They all have one vote each. The NPOM wagon is tempting, but I'd like more information from the sources that aren't giving as much of it; I might switch to NPOM if we get to 6 votes there. So...I'll just pick one. VOTE: Penguin

I like this post, especially the bit in the middle about Penguin. The bit at the end detracts from it though.

[Lunar Martian]

I think Kayzan is Town.

[Lunar Martian]

That seems understandable but there's also the sheeping issues and I feel like it's a bit excessive even then?
I'm curious where Alchemist said anything about lack of optics concern though. Alchemist, if that is correct, why do you find that scummy of Kazyan?

1) I mean, yeah. I sheeped. That happened. I'm not going to defend it, because I definitely sheeped.

2) My post confirmed your claim that I was concerned about optics. Alchemist does not buy my post's explanation that you are correct. Therefore, Alchemist does not buy that you are correct. You claim is that I was concerned about optics, so Alchemist does not buy that I was concerned about optics. This is subject to change based on whatever Alchemist tries to backpedal on.

In the future--assuming I don't get eliminated--is there something I can do to make my lines of reasoning more clear? Between the two rounds of Elements debacle and this confusion, it's apparent that I'm not great at clarity. Dannflor's earlier null read on me seems to corroborate this.

The last paragraph of this post mostly. It has little to do with the game but seems genuine including feeling genuinely frustrated in struggling to get a message across. Not only is there an indication that Kayzan wants to work with Town, but the acknowledgement of a communication issue also explains why people might misconstrue Kayzan's posts as coming from Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

I like this post, especially the bit in the middle about Penguin. The bit at the end detracts from it though.

so uh, is it good or bad

how does it affect your view on Kazyan in general

why is the end bad

I think it was a good post. I didn't like the last paragraph but I liked the openness and sharing of Kayzan's thought process.

[Lunar Martian]

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

Well this post kind of sums up my thoughts on NoPower very nicely. NoPower makes a lot of short posts that don't say much. Most of them just serve to lightly discredit other people (in this case discrediting me somewhat and elements somewhat more). I also think this post is pretty ironic given what NoPower proceeded to do the next few days in terms of going after me. For someone who keeps touting the importance of finding Town, I'm not sure who NoPower thinks is Town. Not even sure if he ever even answered who is in the "townblock".

[Lunar Martian]

I want to give a list of my thoughts.
These folks are of the Town: Gamma, Hayker, Ben, Kazyan probably, Papa Zito maybe.
Elements has a fair shot of being Town.
Unsure of Alchemist, HeWhoSwims, and 2ndchosen1.
I think PenguinPower and NoPower are probably my two top picks for Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

There is no town block. I think you are confused.

Ah OK I was confused, but the rest of the post stands.

[Lunar Martian]

Come on, people.

5 pages already is a bit much. I see Danfloor is IC, so that’s good. If I recall correctly he does have good reads as Town.

Let me go back and cite the post but tbere was something I didn’t like from Elements.

VOTE: Elements

It’s based on this.

It’s not a strong read but I haven’t seen anything from you that reverses the read.

There's actually no reason in that post though.

[Lunar Martian]

OK nevermind. I don't really see the issue with what Elements said though?

[Lunar Martian]

Does scum!NoPowerOverMe really pursue a vanity wagon on Penguin while he has a perfectly viable counterwagon in Kazyan?

I guess the flaw in that theory is what if they're both scum, but I don't see a lot of people thinking that.

Lunar, can you expand on your maybe-town read on Kazyan for me please?

Also unrelated sidenote: I have a feeling 2ndchosen is being scum leaned simply for not having as much content as other players.

Kazyan is Town for me because they are consistent in being inconsistent. I've discussed a few specific things that I liked, but the general vibe is that Kazyan is doing things to try and figure stuff out. They aren't afraid to be bold in standing up to consensus, like on the 2nd read. Their reads are starting to look like mine as well, so even though we started in somewhat different places and approaches to the game, we are starting to agree more and more as our thoughts become more informed.

[Lunar Martian]

So I think I was confused when I scumread NoPower. Some of you will understand. That said, if NoPower is town, then that leaves me with a scarcity of Mafia. I'll probably have to re-evaluate Ben's slot (and maybe everyone else I think is Town) when the replacement comes. For now, VOTE: Penguin.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar Martian is also leaning town, not for being limbaity but for other reasons I'll expand on if people need them.

yes pls scumbudy.

You've repeatedly tried to buddy Dannflor with posts like this. You claimed to be masons with him but then you also joke about being scum here.

You are scum because you are coasting. This whole game you've done basically nothing. What are your thoughts on who is Mafia and Town? Why haven't you seemed to do anything to try and solve the game?
Also, most people have done some things that suggest that they're Town. You're pretty much unique in not doing so.

[Lunar Martian]

You should read some of those 18k posts in my town games.

You're saying that you have no reads at this point though? I get that it's day 1. I'm not super confident, but I feel like it's still important to share and try. If nothing else it provides more information for later days, right?

[Lunar Martian]

If your votes are essentially random or just to create wagons or counters, then looking back at your voting patterns really won't be helpful in analyzing you on subsequent days. You really don't have any thoughts or guesses? It doesn't have to be right but I'd like to see your thought process at least. That matters.

[Lunar Martian]

Let's try this: why wouldn't you vote Papa Zito?

[Lunar Martian]

Not really following agar's logic half the time to be honest. Throwing darts could give just as good results.

I mean, it's hard to follow a town mindset when you're a scumbag.

I don't really see or follow it either. Maybe its because I didn't memorize the thread so post numbers aren't helpful at all.

[Lunar Martian]

I love how the site admins are trying to use the fact that they are site admins as a shield (especially Penguin), but neither of them is actually doing much to help solve the game.

[Lunar Martian]

I love how the site admins are trying to use the fact that they are site admins as a shield (especially Penguin), but neither of them is actually doing much to help solve the game.

This is some very serious shade.

Actually let's talk about this, because this is the 2nd time you've thrown shade my way. The first time you did it I challenged you to vote me and got crickets in response. Here we are again and you've again not voted me. Why.

Mostly I'm going after Penguin. You didn't use it as an excuse to the same extent. Penguin literally said he wouldn't vote you because you're a mod. And Penguin isn't doing anything to solve the game "because its day 1".

[Lunar Martian]

Holy shit I'm playing mafia with AGar. 2021 off to a gr8 start.

Kinda curious though, why did your catchup post peter out in the 200s?

The Cincy/UGA game was ending while I was reading that (ugh), honestly, so I was reading and making mental notes but not typing. I probably need to re-read that bit again to see if there's anything I missed, but nothing particularly popped out that I felt the need to note by post #.

---

Also accusing skittles of using "admin work" to justify absence is a hell of a take when 1) they aren't doing that and 2) that would be a gross thing for them to do so accusing them of that is twice as gross.

---

I'd like to really push consideration for a yeet of Hayker. They haven't done much for me to consider them town and their interactions have felt "don't rock the boat"ish, while their 'defense' of townreading Zito was, um, to be kind - fabricated - and read like a slip of being too confident in their ability to "save a town" player and reeked of being informed. I can do a bigger post if people want more persuasion but 547 pinged me hard enough to go from wanting to vote NPOM to being more convinced Hayker needs to eat a yeet. If not I'll switch over to a leading wagon to make sure we get a yeet but we should really really yeet the shit out of Hayker.

The part directed at me isn't what happened, and its not what Papa claimed happened. You should read the thread before jumping in and voicing such aggression.

[Lunar Martian]

Let's try this: why wouldn't you vote Papa Zito?

Because he's a purple name and I don't want to yeet him d1.

I'm saying that I don't have any good reads and would vote for most players right now except for zito and dann. I don't really care what people have to say Day 1 during day 1 because it's easy to just say whatever you need to appear townie. Looking back at it later can be helpful, but the votecount is moreso. You'll note that almost all my voting has been done to create/increase wagons or counterwagons just to see how things rise and fall.

We still haven't had a proper wagon today which is somewhat disconcerting.

Which part did I misread?

[Lunar Martian]

The latter of the two posts (506) is especially concerning since it was pointed out that the claim that there haven't been real wagons is patently false, even by Penguin's own standards.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: AGar

[Lunar Martian]

why

His reads seem backwards and he's being overly aggressive. Feels like he's trying to bully his way into having people think he's Town.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm awake mod, I swear

Whether Ben was hiding AND not interested or just not interested is still a bit iffy to me. I have to admit that LM has a point on the aggressiveness, Agar comes in and seems to immediately know exactly who is best to Wagon pointing to some posts that don't entirely give scum indictative to me on D1. While I'll acknowledge some of the reads seem to fit for me, like hayker. Others seem off to me, like GE and Kazyan.

Could you expand on those reads? I acknowledge they are your D1 reads and subject to change but I'm wondering what got you to such a list.

I'm looking forward to the promised hayker expansion too.

This is directed at Agar right, not at me?

[Lunar Martian]

I think I figured something out and won't be voting for Papa today. I'd go for alchemist, and AGar is actually making sense about Hayker too. Want to see more from Hayker before I decide. For now I'll vote alchemist.
VOTE: alchemist

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Hayker

AGar's "screw Hayker" masterpost is convincing. I basically have no idea what Hayker's broader reads are.

Willing to switch to Alchemist at a moment's notice, though.

Dislike this.

[Lunar Martian]

At this point we've been around in circles so many times that I'm getting a bit lost. I think the day needs to end. I had a very good feeling about Hayker before, but if that's the direction people want to go I'll vote there if people want. Still prefer Alchemist I think.

[Lunar Martian]

Don't like Gamma playing dumb. Wouldn't Town be aware of the general feeling among the Town?

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Hayker

E-1

[Lunar Martian]

Is Macho different than what the Wiki says? The wiki says it means you can't be protected from kills. So it's weaker than a regular cop.

[Lunar Martian]

There's a difference between sheeping the IC and knowing that they have the best chance of having town intentions.

Don't you have Town intentions? What about your own thinking?

[Lunar Martian]

I like having Dann to work with and bounce ideas off. But I don't think its a good idea to just sheep Dann. It's too easy for Mafia to nudge Dann towards a Town and then say "I was just following the leader, don't blame me!"

[Lunar Martian]

Nothing Papa is doing is making me confident in him being Town. That post feels like it's trying to either buddy me or draw associations between us.

[Lunar Martian]

oh no

Are you upset about the pizza or the FoS?

[Lunar Martian]

I'm by no means 100% confident that Papa Zito/HeWhoSwims are scum. But they are my absolute top picks and since I'm likely to not be participating in this game anymore soon, I would like people to take a long hard look at both of them and particularly my case on them. And if we still have a vig tonight, even better.

But yes, Hayker is #1 priority.

I'll do this for you. I'm already on Papa for coasting and for discrediting me, but not really doing much else or anything to solve. I'll keep an eye on HeWhoSwims.

[Lunar Martian]

Zito, you think Lunar is scum from my small dive so I want to know what you think of my logic presented as a whole right now.

From my understanding your logic is: There must be scum on the current Hayker wagon. You know you are not scum, you believe Lunar to be town for reasons unknown, therefore Gamma is the most likely suspect. I don't find this line of thought terribly convincing because:

* it doesn't talk about Kayzan, also on the wagon, at all
* it's a somewhat arbitrary division of players; one could just as easily take the "not voting" category of players instead
* I don't really think Lunar is town

That aside, your arguments for Gamma Emerald to be the correct pick aside from pure process of elimination are:

lot of his responses to me are pretty flat and posts like #615 in regards to his own attention span feels attributed to a guilty conscience

I don't really understand this point. What are "flat" vs "non-flat" (?) responses? Can you give examples of which particular responses you consider "flat" and why?

Why do you attribute 615 to a "guilty conscience" vs ... I dunno, anything else?

His trajectory this game so far seems like an intentional means to not upset anyone, where-in his responses are very measured. I tend to backspace a lot more as scum because I'm really careful about the way I explain my thought process as I don't want to leave any holes for townies to pick up on. In that sense, I feel the restraint is intentional.

I don't really understand this point either. Are you saying you think he hasn't been confrontational enough? Or that he hasn't argued with enough people? Can you explain what you mean here?

It's not that saying 'hm' or thinking about things makes you scum, it is everything surrounding that empty thought. Just a lot of mundane responses and mostly attuned to what is going around him instead of going out and seeking answers.

I think this is a restatement of the 2nd argument unless I'm mistaken.


Overall - my current thought is that a lot of your criticisms are extremely vague.

This post does a lot to discredit unwnd's analysis, but offers no new analysis.

[Lunar Martian]

Gamma/Hayker/Papa. GG.

[Lunar Martian]

I think northsidegal is Town for what it's worth. I agree with her reads so far to an almost alarming degree. The only thing I disagree with is that I have Papa as Mafia over elements.

[Lunar Martian]

Can someone tell my why they think LM is scum again?

Who do you think is Mafia and why?

[Lunar Martian]

I feel like as Town you'd not think it was strange that unwnd is voting Hayker with you. Hayker is basically caught scum.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm being reserved because I'm that way across p much all my games since I can't put in the exact effort I want to put in for all of them, so I'm pulling my punches in all of them. I'll put in a concerted effort to sort the entire game if I get a good chance, but I don't want to push myself into focusing on X game when I have others I feel might deserve my time more.

You're currently in too many games? It's just temporary then? Why doesn't this game deserve your attention?

[Lunar Martian]

We didn't end the day because northsidegal asked for more time. Is it time to move on so we don't completely stall out?

[Lunar Martian]

In the past 24 hours we have generated one page of content including 3 prods. The game is stalled. There's no point in creating more apathy than there already is.

[Lunar Martian]

Dann do you remember who all has pushed PZ today?

me and elements

I did too, at least a bit.

[Lunar Martian]

Dannflor

Papa Zito
Kazyan
2ndchosen1

nsg
NPOM
Lunar

Elements

Conftown, townreads, PoE scum suspects, scumread

Including the IC but not the elimination target for a wagon you're on is interesting.

[Lunar Martian]

I honestly can't really explain my Lunar read btw, beyond just a deep feeling of... scum doesn't play like that?

Aask unwnd how that thinking regarding me works out.

[Lunar Martian]

Should I not be town reading you

I mean I'm Town, so in that sense you should be. But I don't think that's necessarily a good reason to think I'm Town. I'm more surprised that you don't know I'm Town because I keep saying things and then you keep agreeing. We are constantly on the same page, yet you seem to have a lot of doubt about me. Maybe it's my posting style or something.

[Lunar Martian]

We're in a bit of a mood, are we?

[Lunar Martian]

i also think that we never

really

hammered out a truly satisfying reason for agar being killed, and with more insight now we might be able to look back and figure out a better reason. at the very least it helps to know for certain that hayker was scum.

I think NSG makes a very good point that we should look into. Especially the bit about scum!unwnd

don't try to twist what i say for yourself.

Feels like distancing between Elements and northsidegal.

[Lunar Martian]

i also think that we never

really

hammered out a truly satisfying reason for agar being killed, and with more insight now we might be able to look back and figure out a better reason. at the very least it helps to know for certain that hayker was scum.

I think NSG makes a very good point that we should look into. Especially the bit about scum!unwnd

don't try to twist what i say for yourself.

Feels like distancing between Elements and northsidegal.

To elaborate, there's no pressure or FoS, just a "Hey I don't like you go away!". It's cheap and easy to tell someone to buzz off but with no actual pressure or analysis.

[Lunar Martian]

i would like to hear people's thoughts on the merits of a massclaim today

I see no way that this would benefit the town.

on further reflection i think you're actually right.

This also feels like Mafia throwing out an idea that would benefit them, and then backing off immediately when the idea gets shut down.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: elements

[Lunar Martian]

There's a reason I didn't continue to pressure northside. It's interesting that Kazyan is piggybacking off of me to continue the pressure there.

[Lunar Martian]

I make way less errors as the backspace key is always on my keyboard.

Are you saying the syntax error in this sentence is a townslip?

[Lunar Martian]

Who do you suspect, Elements?

[Lunar Martian]

Maybe do some legwork to case them then? At this point it just looks like you're trying to cast doubt on slots most people have labeled Town.

[Lunar Martian]

Just wanted to share a weak gut-level meta-read. Unwnd feels a bit different here than as Town the one time I saw that. I was Mafia, so it could be me that's changed, but that's the vibe I get.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm gonna do a quick one before bed. some are conditional on how the questions I asked are answered

Kazyan is the strongest read for Town I've got. We've got similar reads in 1123. I generally like his reasoning and thought layout. Motives seem solid and explained. I would like to know what he sees in 1122 that it's living in his head.
LM is who I'm almost reading as potential vig as it seems that his sus reads seem to end up on the kill list next day. (PZ/GE - D2, D1 - Penguin) General belligerence aside, no malicious motives I can pull. Though wishing I had more reasoning and explaination on his posts.
NPOM/unwnd is a bit contingent on how they answer my questions but history seems okay in general. Will admit NPOM was easier to read as I almost get a word salad feel here
NSG has said enough to convince me I'm maybe not looking at whole picture so I am planning on reexamining especially the nsg/elements interactions.
Elements is clearly paying attention per his "oops" but hasn't really given a stance or why on anything, many are wagoning and it's easy to see why with his confidence on attacking NPOM/unwnd.

This doesn't feel like solving. Also why are you speculating about PRs?

[Lunar Martian]

If you could figure out more specifically what feels different that would be helpful, if you can

There's less solvy energy. In that game unwnd actively took a back seat as an SE in a Newbie game, but despite sitting back, they felt like they were adding insight and perception when they posted.

[Lunar Martian]

Any dissonance you feel between now and recent games is just paranoia

Or me being busy. If you guys really think I shoot PZ because I'm worried that he scumread my slot I don't think I have a proper combination of words to describe how insane that'd be. PZ died because he's town, and furthermore, I personally hate looking into night kills and assuming anything. My vote on 2ndchosen is not a full reflection of night death, rather lessening of PoE. If you think I'm scum based on a PoE then by all means approach me at that angle, because I cannot work with 'youre scum because a dead townie said so' lol

You're saying there are no perceptible differences between your Town and Mafia play?

[Lunar Martian]

Don't like how easily Kazyan gave Elements a Town pass.

[Lunar Martian]

but the chart says you don't actually need my vote tbh.

the reason I haven't been voted off yet is both scum don't want to be on my wagon

Who are those scum then?

[Lunar Martian]

I don't like how I'm starting to scumread Kazyan above you now
UNVOTE:

Why?

[Lunar Martian]

Would love to yeet within {Hayker/NPOM/LM} today.

No desire to yeet within {PZ/GE/Alch/Elements} today.

{PP/Kazyan/Swims/Chosen} don't feel like flips where they'd give enough information as currently constructed, but there is likely some scumbag in there.

VOTE: Hayker

this kill makes a lot more sense if two names in Agar's yeet 3 are scum. I have no decent reason to think NPOM/unwnd is scum.

then there's also the fact of LM and elements just suddenly softly bussing each other this day phase

Previously, they both had some sort of town read on the other, but that suddenly changed round about when nsg came out with a scum read on elements. There's no clear reason for this shift either.

And as much as I tonally town read LM's D1, this and the last day phase has been a lot of poking and prodding and wheel spinning. (granted that's been a lot of us, but rereading it feels less genuine)

I mean I had never been very confident on Elements being Town, but NSG convinced me. Elements slowly drifted down in my reads, and even in the NSG read list I disagreed with, I only meant that Elements should be moved up a tier to below null rather than likely Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

maybe a little crazy, lunar has been going pretty hard on elements which i guess defies my expectations of how a scum lunar plays around his scumbuddy

I thought that too but I just find their read histories of each other weird

fair, checking lunar's ISO today has been more of a death tunnel on elements than i realized before you brought it up

It just comes out of nowhere and I don't get as much of a sense that Lunar is trying to solve the game this phase than I do from Kazyan or even 2ndchosen

You are right. I want Elements. Momentum seems to be carrying us towards Elements. I'm getting what I want without having to do anything. I'm busy and lazy, so I'm content to coast.

[Lunar Martian]

My list looks like this right now even if it's 7 people

Dann
Me
Lunar
NSG
Kaz
Elements
2nd

I'm absolutely confident one of 2nd/Elements flips scum, and now it's been a case of being choosy and determining which reality feels the most true to me. I just need a bit more before I determine if I'm flipping my vote or staying on here. Would you be willing to trust my judgment (despite being wrong on Gamma) if that were the case?

Also we all basically agree on this. Assuming we are right that two of the bottom 3 are Mafia, I don't really care which two. Flip Elements and then have another look.

[Lunar Martian]

I mean, 2ndchosen, what do you think of me repeatedly saying that NSG is my most confident town read and someone I'm basically never considering as scum at this point.

I'm not asking you to sheep me unquestionably but I found it so odd you're pursuing this seemingly without pause or without questioning my read?

I don't think Mafia ever makes that play though.

[Lunar Martian]

Well I'm going to head off and either check in the morning or lunch
until then UNVOTE:

Wow I see we were really committed to that NSG vote, weren't we?

I initially didn't see how Mafia would ever want to make that play, but elements pushing back half-heartedly suggests maybe it was a chainsaw? I just don't see why.

[Lunar Martian]

I'll check in to this thread at least once more before signing off for the night, but 10 hours remaining and we need to consolidate. Why are people hesitant to vote elements? I would do any of elements, 2nd, or kaz, in that order.

[Lunar Martian]

How're you feeling on reads rn Dann? I'm going to be looking through others and probably do a small wall later tonight.

I feel like maybe you should do your wall before Dann gives you the answers.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm rather embarrassed to still be alive

Are you Mafia? How do you explain not getting nightkilled?

[Lunar Martian]

I believe unwnd is Mafia. I'm not sure about partners, I'll have to re-read which I do not have time to do at the moment.

[Lunar Martian]

Also, I think the vig should claim now

It's me. Hi. I breadcrumbed it in 1372.

Sorry about the bad shots.

I don't see the breadcrumb?

[Lunar Martian]

I counter-claim that lol

Very odd to wake up and see myself in this position

I shot Gamma on N2 but I didn't wanna make it overtly obvious so I tried to sweep it mostly under the wrong. I then tried to shoot 2ndchosen last night but either he was protected by JK or I was just outright roleblocked

Why not immediately vote someone who from your perspective is confirmed Mafia?

[Lunar Martian]

Why wait to crumb until day four? I kinda think this is a SvS gambit.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar thinking this could be SvS is also

I don't think it actually says much towards their alignment considering just a page ago they were wondering if perhaps I was a scum IC

That was a joke. [Joke]Next time ill put joke tags around it[/Joke]

[Lunar Martian]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Unwnd is Town 90%. I'm ready to vote Kazyan.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar thinking this could be SvS is also

I don't think it actually says much towards their alignment considering just a page ago they were wondering if perhaps I was a scum IC

That was a joke. [Joke]Next time ill put joke tags around it[/Joke]

I figured it's just still like

you say pretty off the wall stuff sometimes

You're welcome.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar thinking this could be SvS is also

I don't think it actually says much towards their alignment considering just a page ago they were wondering if perhaps I was a scum IC

That was a joke. [Joke]Next time ill put joke tags around it[/Joke]

I figured it's just still like

you say pretty off the wall stuff sometimes

You're welcome.

[Lunar Martian]

I counter-claim that lol

Very odd to wake up and see myself in this position

I shot Gamma on N2 but I didn't wanna make it overtly obvious so I tried to sweep it mostly under the wrong. I then tried to shoot 2ndchosen last night but either he was protected by JK or I was just outright roleblocked

Why not immediately vote someone who from your perspective is confirmed Mafia?

And this, too. I asked two good questions Dann. Pls.

[Lunar Martian]

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

Well this post kind of sums up my thoughts on NoPower very nicely. NoPower makes a lot of short posts that don't say much. Most of them just serve to lightly discredit other people (in this case discrediting me somewhat and elements somewhat more). I also think this post is pretty ironic given what NoPower proceeded to do the next few days in terms of going after me. For someone who keeps touting the importance of finding Town, I'm not sure who NoPower thinks is Town. Not even sure if he ever even answered who is in the "townblock".

I want to give a list of my thoughts.
These folks are of the Town: Gamma, Hayker, Ben, Kazyan probably, Papa Zito maybe.
Elements has a fair shot of being Town.
Unsure of Alchemist, HeWhoSwims, and 2ndchosen1.
I think PenguinPower and NoPower are probably my two top picks for Mafia.

this makes it feel like a lunar/unwnd team is somewhat unlikely

although this suspicion is dropped later somewhat randomly

Why?

[Lunar Martian]

So I think I was confused when I scumread NoPower.

Lunar, if you remember, I need an explanation on what happened here

Multiple games with similar playerlists at the same time.

[Lunar Martian]

Why does the vote order matter? Are we about to see some vengeful/supersaint/whatever action?

[Lunar Martian]

I believe unwnd is Mafia. I'm not sure about partners, I'll have to re-read which I do not have time to do at the moment.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Unwnd is Town 90%. I'm ready to vote Kazyan.

lunar wtf happened here

I remembered the truth!

[Lunar Martian]

Or I almost climbed out of the pocket and slipped. But I think I remembered the truth.

[Lunar Martian]

Wait I wasn't unwnd's partner?

[Lunar Martian]

Yeah I think the vig sheeping me was a bad play

Anyway, gg. Sorry I didn't have better reads. I guess we each got one over on each other, Unwnd. You overdid it a bit at the end and you're lucky I wasn't around.
Thanks datisi!

[Lunar Martian]

unwnd (Mafia Multitasking Jailkeeper) and 2ndchosen1 (Mafia Bulletproof Enabler) survive and win.

hey fuckers
I WAS RIGHT ABOUT UNWND
AND YALL ARE STUPID FOR YEETING KAZYAN

I called it when unwnd was still NPOM.

I did too but I let myself be persuaded.

[Lunar Martian]

Hmm that's a very good point. Thanks mastina!

[Lunar Martian]

Had I been paying attention it should have been extra obvious to me... Unfortunately I was still super busy at the time. Sorry.

[Lunar Martian]

Yeah I mean I did mention it, but I can see why you don't automatically. Life kinda surprised me with some stuff there.