Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: RTP

Don't believe you.

Also, what's a friendly neighbor?

[VP Baltar]

Also, what's a friendly neighbor?

Is this a serious question, a jab at abr, or something else?

Dealer's choice

[VP Baltar]

normally by this point I'd have a pretty solid read list but I only know three of your so that ain't gonna happen this time

You'd typically have a solid reads list by page 2?

[VP Baltar]

normally by this point I'd have a pretty solid read list but I only know three of your so that ain't gonna happen this time

You'd typically have a solid reads list by page 2?

yep, I have good gut reads

I’m a believer. Found me and my scum buddies on day one in Mini theme 2162. Still don’t know how you did that. It was great!

Had elements played with you or your scum buddies before that game?

[VP Baltar]

How often do you get yeeted D1 Italiano?

[VP Baltar]

How often do you get yeeted D1 Italiano?

On this site, just that one time. My entire wolfgame career maybe twice. Why? You tryna see if I’ll be a good mislynch/nightkill?

You caught me.

[VP Baltar]

Elements, do you feel like you'll be able to speed read people you know?

[VP Baltar]

Elements, do you feel like you'll be able to speed read people you know?

does Elements know you?

Unless they are an alt, no.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, can you elaborate what sparks so much interest for you in Elements and how the information from your questions help you there?

I am kind of torn on you. On one hand I can see you trying to get some conversation going and to figure Elements out in one way... however on the other hand your questions also feel a bit like filler that doesn't really bring too much on the table, but make you look engaged.

Elements had said something interesting ("I have good reads by page 2"), so I wanted to poke that a little bit and see if they were bullshitting or not.

Then Italiano interjected to defend that statement, so I wanted to figure out why. Turns out Italiano maybe just had a bad game rather than it saying anything about elements.

Curious why my play in particular struck you as filler? It's definitely rubbing two sticks together, but I'm working with what I have here so far.

What do you think of Italiano's vote on me?

[VP Baltar]

Harumi Ayasato - scum

Is this one all gut too, or is there more there?

[VP Baltar]

Elements, can you also tell me about your Lunar Martian and andres reads too? Did something about their RVS votes strike you? Or you just have bad vibes because they haven't posted?

[VP Baltar]

Elements has my permission to be Town.

I agree elements is prob town. What do you think of their read on harumi? Quality/not quality?

[VP Baltar]

its something i myself as scum would see and latch onto early on for towncred, as to why i reached that conclusion. I myself wanted to see how they play out wrt their sorting between elements/I considering the similarities and then later down the line question them about it.

I'm having a hard time sorting who you're referring to in this stream of consciousness

[VP Baltar]

That's a very spicy take indeed.

[VP Baltar]

Turns out Italiano maybe just had a bad game rather than it saying anything about elements.

They had those reads on page 1 that game, before anything even started.

Unless you're saying elements had psychic powers, something clearly pinged them

[VP Baltar]

Uh, I just isolated ItalianoVD and despite being relatively active they made like two substantial posts. For lack of any clearly better options, I'm going to VOTE: ItalianoVDVOTE: for now.

I don't understand why you'd have time to ISO Italiano but not just reread the full game.

[VP Baltar]

That's a very spicy take indeed.

do you have an opinion on it?

It seems a little reachy to me. Duchess made a fair point questioning Elements' reads list.

Duchess probably is reaching on Testa, but her style as town is fairly verbose, so I can see someone being thrown by that. It is all a bit early to tell what is smoke and what is fire.

[VP Baltar]

GC town

Go on

[VP Baltar]

GC town

Go on

As in, why specifically is GC town here, and do you think Duchess is scum?

[VP Baltar]

acknowledges fault imo

Can you point me to what specifically pinged that for you?

[VP Baltar]

He isn't being cagey about his reads in that post. He is using a metaphor to explain his viewpoint

[VP Baltar]

He isn't being cagey about his reads in that post. He is using a metaphor to explain his viewpoint

those were 2 separate points.
you just assumed they were one and the same.

Then explain specifically where he is being cagey about his reads. I don't see it and need an explanation

[VP Baltar]

And just to clarify, my Baltar vote was a reaction test vote, it wasn't really my solidified vote. That there wasn't more reaction to it, ehh I don't know how to feel about it just yet.

Reaction from me or from other players?

[VP Baltar]

Anyone play with Datisi before?

Yeah. What can I help you with?

[VP Baltar]

I don't know exactly what kind of push I was expecting to see, but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

This post is screaming TMI

Do you think Duchess and Italiano are scum together? Or that duchess was scum trying to pocket a low hanging fruit townie?

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler: datisi

how come i'm the only "null" on that list?

ok

what does maybe town mean (i.e. how is it different from town) and what's giving you those vibes

Strike you out of the ordinary that he is this preoccupied with how others perceive him?

Whoops, guess I should have read the next page.

Those don't strike me as questions outside of what Datisi might ask as town.

That's not to say I have town vibes off him really yet.

[VP Baltar]

Datisi as town has asked me to justify my read on him a few times. I think he does it to guage genuine intentions vs. scum pulling reads out of their butts.

Dunn, can I get a general impressions of the game post?

[VP Baltar]

What do you make out of Italiano's admiration of Elements in context of their history?

Seems reasonable if elements dunked on Italiano in a previous game.

[VP Baltar]

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

[VP Baltar]

sorry had like lunar's iso open in a tab and like i went back to it and i was like .mmmmm doesnt sit right with me but i didnt wanna detract from my push on duchess LOL

Huh?

[VP Baltar]

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

You call that combative?

As a reformed toxic player, I'm sure you wouldn't understand casual combativeness.

Yeah, I think Duchess had a bit of a bad faith response to GC

[VP Baltar]

VP, where did I respond in bad faith to GC?

You've called his posting strawmanning and loaded questions variously, which seems combative when you could just answer the questions.

You also seem to be telling RTP to bring it. Your overall demeanor seems aggressive. Just curious if that 'fight me' attitude is common to your town play.

[VP Baltar]

Duchess is just Town here, no?

could be.

who is scum?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dunnstral

[VP Baltar]

who still fos's harumi here?

Me

[VP Baltar]

who still fos's harumi here?

Me

I think they hard towntold on top of what ive noticed with my initial pings of them with the tell i had mentioned - what makes you scumread them still?

Scum read is a strong term. I just don't find them super town. The reads list was meh and that selected ISOing of Italiano felt opportunistic to me.

If there is some super town tell you see, point it out. Maybe I'm missing it

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler:

Italiano. Please point to exactly where I have defended you.

Post 98 could be viewed as you trying to defend me fmpov or at the very least interfering with a player trying to sort a slot, which is just as bad. The same can be said for 138 since it piggybacked from 98. Then 141, then in 143 you said

“Italiano himself later explained there is no correlation in post 108

which to me read like you were defending me again, using my posts to help your argument. You mentioned me again in 166, again to help solidify your argument. Then again in 167 to justify your push onto Green. For someone not defending someone it sure seems like you are.

I'm surprised that even from your point of view

you are clinging to GC's false characterization of my push as a defense.

Why would you be surprised at someone else’s point of view? The (bolded) here is just wrong and not at all what I’m doing.

Your vantage point should make it abundantly clear that I have done absolutely nothing to defend your words or justify your actions.

See above.

So I'm curious about precisely where you are getting the feeling that I am stepping up to bat for you rather than attacking a scumread.

See above.

This early in the game, I know nothing. Nobody knows anything, except for scum.

I don’t know, you seemed pretty confident in your read, you even said so at the end of this post.

So if X looks to be setting up a scumpush against Y, I don't think for a damn second about what my read of Y is, because I have no reason to be so sure of anything that I would let those first impressions and assumptions of Y dictate my assessment of situation X.

My question is if I was a FoS, why would you be against a scum push onto me. Green would have been bussing me from your perspective, so what would it matter? For me it seems like you would’ve only done what you did if I was a townlean, otherwise you would have called out the theatre, (which would’ve been weak), but at least it’d be consistent.

I gotta say I'm not at all comfortable being in the middle of this Duchess/Green Crayons thing, lol. Like yikes, I don't like what I say to be a basis to read someone else off when it wasn't my intention to do so. If this is theatre please choose something else to fight over and leave me out of it and if you're town then just drop it, it's not that serious.

Can you elaborate on how exactly it makes you uncomfortable and why?
Why is it either theatre or town vs town?

I’ve explained why it makes me feel uncomfortable both in 169 and this post. And the thought crossed my mind that it was theatre because I didn’t feel like it was a real argument and had no real footing, but then I thought that maybe the communication is just that bad between you too, either way I wanted both of you to stop talking about it. And since it involved me I had the audacity to say so.

I already said I didn't have an issue with Green's questioning.

So what? I'm not pushing GC for your benefit and I don't need your blessings or permission.

Well as I said since it involves me so I have the right to nip it in the bud.

Is there a reason you are so adamant about this?

This is a very strange question. I'm pushing a scumread, which is what you do in the game of mafia. I'll be either right or wrong in the end, but for now I'm quite confident.

Im asking under the mindset that you are defending me and I’m saying you’re push is not a good one because it’s being pushed under a false pretense.

This entire interaction is weird. I spent a good amount of time just trying to understand what is being said. It feels very in the weeds, and that doesn't necessarily feel pro-town. The problem is all three are kind of pushing weedy stuff at points, so I have no fucking clue who could be scum if there is scum.

[VP Baltar]

Lunar, I'm not sure Datisi is scum here. You want to join me on the dunnstral wagon?

I'm fairly sure he is lurking scum. Dunn is super smart, and knows how to strategic lurk (source: the last time we were scum together). I almost pushed this earlier, but felt like it would have been unfair too early in the game, so I gave him a chance to give me a reads list/impressions of the game.

He didn't do that. He also has conveniently stayed out of really any point of action in this game. Reeks of lurking scum.

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

[VP Baltar]

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.

I'm mostly thinking how IVD is interacting with the GC/Duchess fight.

Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?

[VP Baltar]

Andres wins my first solid town read of the game.

I hope you are shamed, Datisi.

[VP Baltar]

I have never had that experience of sorting andres where I sort him as town that quickly + I don't see where you pulled the townread from based on the postings.

In fairness, I've not played with scum andres, but his indecisiveness around the GC-Duchess spat vibes town with me. The way he portrayed his feelings on it defuses the situation slightly since he didn't come to a hard conclusion. He also logically explained why he thought it was TvS rather than SvS. Reminded me of town andres I've seen in the past.

[VP Baltar]

What made you change your mind on Datisi?

Datisi is sort of in my null pile still. I've seen some glimmers of town there, but he hasn't wowed me yet (or called me scum weirdly), so I have minor suspicions there...but it is almost entirely vibe at this time.

I'm not sure what you mean by changed my mind? I don't remember stating mild suspicions on Datisi before? My take today was mostly to let him play and see how things shake out before I judge too much there, unless something seriously scummy happened...which it hasn't.

[VP Baltar]

so it put him as more towny than any other player here?

Yeah, for me personally. It was the first thing that I felt quite townie about.

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Do you think there is someone here who is very clearly obv town?

[VP Baltar]

Personally I'm more interested in Dunnstral and whether he always is this lurky and fluffy.

I'm down to wagon GC.

Do you need something?

Why are you posting regularly in other games but not here?

Why did you ignore my request for some reads?

[VP Baltar]

Let me take a chill pill for a minute. I read your 306 Duchess. I’ll respond it to it later. Same with you @Datisi wrt 272

UNVOTE: Duchess

What if Italiano really is just scum here?

[VP Baltar]

Why are GC and RTP town?

[VP Baltar]

How is elements being weird?

[VP Baltar]

That's different play than what you'd expect from elements?

[VP Baltar]

Tess is weirdly avoiding this game too, yeah?

[VP Baltar]

how surprised would you be if i said i'm currently town on you?

We are in uncharted territory here

[VP Baltar]

hot take but the top 3 wagons here are TvTvT

I think the likelihood they are all town seems quite low actually.

Italiano is opportunistic enough to just be bad scum here, but maybe elements has some thoughts to add on that since he caught him before.

Dunn's answers sound like they are coming from a vitamin salesman. "You will FEEEL younger, I swear."

Elements has been pretty absent, but I felt town there early.

[VP Baltar]

RTP, you still think Duchess is most likely scum here?

Can you hit me with the cliff notes case?

[VP Baltar]

If I'm being honest VP I am also leaning scum on you so it'd be good if you could sorta try to dialogue a bit with me to help ascertain my read there on you.

I am always open to chat. I feel like I've directed questions at you, as per above.

[VP Baltar]

Tess is weirdly avoiding this game too, yeah?

Active elsewhere?

Is she usually an active player?

I haven't checked if she is posting elsewhere. In the game we played together previously, she was relatively active at least once a RL day.

Mostly I'm calling it out because I don't like people thinking they can just hang out in the periphery of a game. Holding people accountable to post is how we get content that forces scum into the open, imo.

[VP Baltar]

Hey midway!

[VP Baltar]

It's interesting how three people decided to reply in some form to VPB's friendly neighbor comment. In general, I would expect scum to be more motivated to engage with that.

Big town points for being inside my head.

[VP Baltar]

I thought I was a reaction test for you, Italiano? I'm def scum now?

[VP Baltar]

If I'm being honest VP I am also leaning scum on you so it'd be good if you could sorta try to dialogue a bit with me to help ascertain my read there on you.

I am always open to chat. I feel like I've directed questions at you, as per above.

You going to reply to this line of questioning you started RTP?

[VP Baltar]

It is quoted there. You said you wanted me to dialogue with you. I said I've been responding and putting questions to you, such as asking you for the Duchess case.

I'm open to talking, just not sure what you feel like I'm not engaging you on.

(Also, sorry about site drama)

[VP Baltar]

Okay? I never said you were def scum, just in my limpool.

Why am I in your limpool if I'm not scum?

[VP Baltar]

I'm becoming increasingly confident that Italiano is scum

Not the craziest thing I've heard

[VP Baltar]

Okay? I never said you were def scum, just in my limpool.

Why am I in your limpool if I'm not scum?

Already answered.

Where? Am I missing something?

[VP Baltar]

I guess what I'm asking is what is the actual reason I'm in your lim pool? I haven't heard you really explain why I'm scummy.

Pedit- yes, this is my concern.

[VP Baltar]

I hate that my guy says Italiano is town and every word out of his mouth is scummy.

I still want to yeet Dunn.

[VP Baltar]

my guy = my gut

[VP Baltar]

I mean this is probably just a POE thing.

Why did you feel compelled to answer for Italiano here?

[VP Baltar]

Datisi - Haven't figured out how to read this one. I think he's generally quite towny, but other people don't? Not rlly sure what to think.

Who thinks Datisi is scummy?

[VP Baltar]

ItalianoVD - Cannot remember how I called out his team in the werewolf game but nothing has

Also, can you finish this thought for me?

[VP Baltar]

i'm interested in why other people not thinking i'm townie (?) is enough to drop me down despite them thinking i'm ~quite towny~?

I'm also confused by this

[VP Baltar]

Let me catch up really quick, I’ll be around for a bit.

So your catch up after being gone for two days is three fairly weak reply posts and nothing much to say about the giant reads post your top scum read Elements just made?

I rescind my town read. Andres stock is falling fast.

[VP Baltar]

vp you do you but you're wrong about my meta

You can take a look at some of my town games if you're interested

I guess the only way to find out who is right is to run you up!

[VP Baltar]

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

hot take but the top 3 wagons here are TvTvT

I think the likelihood they are all town seems quite low actually.

Italiano is opportunistic enough to just be bad scum here, but maybe elements has some thoughts to add on that since he caught him before.

Dunn's answers sound like they are coming from a vitamin salesman. "You will FEEEL younger, I swear."

Elements has been pretty absent, but I felt town there early.

"Absent" is an extremely generous way of describing Elements's thread activity at the time. Were you aware they were dodging my direct questions while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines? There is substance in Elements's absence that you didn't touch on here at all.

I don't like the way you've approached RTP in this post. Rather than caring to understand how they've come to those conclusions, you show up to throw a little one-liner grease on the fire for each wagon and then drop it. What's your current read of RTP?

Re: GC - over aggression is way more likely to be a scum trait, imo. Scum are fake scum hunting, so will often push points past an obvious conclusion because that would mean the scum would then have to come up with an entirely new angle to push. That is work when you are scum. Town is way more relaxed because those lines of inquiry emerge naturally as a result of having no actual clue what is true and what is false.

That, of course, doesn't mean town can't be aggressive. I'm just looking at authenticity vs. manufactured outrage.

Re: "dodging" your questions and elements - I don't know what you want me to say. You think I should be hyped up about some interaction you're having with Elements? I don't remember reading anything of substance there, but maybe I skimmed it or it seemed boring to me. We're other players picking up on this? Or you think there is a reason I, in particular, should have noticed this?

My current read of RTP is lean town. I'm trying to recalibrate to the change in style by Koba. They are a very good player, and I tend to not assign concrete reads early in a game anyhow because I'm often wrong and need to stay flexible until I have a good working theory of the game. I try to especially stay flexible on players who are very good.

[VP Baltar]

Italiano, can you respond specifically to this contradiction Lotus has highlighted around your own views of your scum ability?

[VP Baltar]

Is it bad that I'm sensing a potential pocket/manipulation strategy from andres? Might just be me though.

You mean him trying to pocket you?

[VP Baltar]

And Dunn is way too aggressive in their retort to VPB when coming back for Scum.

Uh what? He's not aggressive at all. Just basically says he's not going to respond and that he lurks as both alignments.

Even if I take him at his word that he lurks, he's also just not engaging with....anything....when he is here. So it goes beyond lurking to just avoiding interaction other than to say 'dont look at me.' Doesn't ring like aggressive to me (not that I agree with your premise that is a town trait).

[VP Baltar]

Out of all of the ways in which someone can respond to an accusation of lurking while returning to a thread, I thought this was on the more confrontational side.

How is it aggressive to say 'this game is boring, so I'm not play'?

Also, I forgot he is voting one of your top townreads. Lol

[VP Baltar]

@baltar, in your opinion, how's andres stock doing?

Stable at low levels. Not falling, but not rising either. I'm not entirely convinced these two exchanges show what I'd expect from a town mindset. On a gut level, it feels like some bullshitting explanations for stances.

But, it also feels like I should reread the past two or three pages with a fine tooth comb and settle on an opinion after that. I need to start my work day now, so that probably won't happen imminently.

Either way, I don't think andres is my top priority today. I def want to hear from Italiano and may switch my vote there soon ish.

[VP Baltar]

I def want to hear from Italiano and may switch my vote there soon ish.

Why do you wanna hear from me if you’re mind is already made up.

Where did I say my mind was made up? I explicitly said the opposite of that...

[VP Baltar]

Dunn has given some opinions, and they don’t seem insane to me.

You have literally an opposite opinion from him on your strongest read!

Also, dunn has not really stated opinions beyond gut and tone as far as I can tell. That's either lazy or scummy. Tell me how I'm wrong here?

[VP Baltar]

Right now, this summarizes how I’m feeling about slots this game.

Slight Lean Town
{Harumi Ayasato, Testarossa, RTP, RLotus, Green Crayons, Dunnstral}
Neutral
{Duchess, VPBaltar, ItalianoVD}
Slight Lean Scum
{Elements, Datisi, Lunar Martian/midwaybear}

And like, I get you are saying you don't have strong feelings about anyone in the game, but I'm only going off your list. Testa is listed second in that list. Perhaps you are going to say that's a random grouping, but most people try to organize their reads lists from strongest to weakest as a mental organizing tool.

[VP Baltar]

My point is that your opinion on dunn doesn't logically flow.

Now, people say illogical things all the time. I certainly do. But if someone came in the thread and had Dunn listed near the top of their town reads list, you can believe I'd be suspicious of that person given how that is clashing with my viewpoint as a town member.

[VP Baltar]

And like, I get you are saying you don't have strong feelings about anyone in the game, but I'm only going off your list. Testa is listed second in that list.

Okay but even if I was organizing them from strongest to weakest, they still wouldn’t be my strongest TR.

Apologies. I was working from memory. SECOND strongest.

[VP Baltar]

Also, what’s wrong with gut and tone, exactly? It’s D1. There’s no concrete information. Most of what we’re using to read players is based on anyone’s interpretation of anybody else’s words and motivations.

I mean, in my experience playing with you, you have gotten into some very deep arguments about specifics. The problem with gut and tone is that they are feeling words with no justification. I'm not saying a person can't use them, but if that is the entirety of your case, it sure makes it impossible to pin you to a position if you change your mind later.

I'm all about accountability, and it's impossible to make someone accountable for tone. I'd expect you to get that.

[VP Baltar]

But I'm wondering why it feels like their mind is made up with me. Like no matter what happens I'll be where they vote today, I don't know maybe it's just me.

I responded to this and pointed out I had, indeed, not made my mind up about you.

Here's a post where I am very clearly torn about you:

I hate that my gut says Italiano is town and every word out of his mouth is scummy.

I still want to yeet Dunn.

I really hate that you keep saying "VP has already made his mind up" because it reaches a point where if I ever *do* decide to vote you, you can easily be like: "SEE TOLD YOU VP BIASED AF"

[VP Baltar]

Since we are slowly grinding to a standstill here without much original line of thought, I propose we just run Dunn to L-1 and force a claim.

[VP Baltar]

My point is that your opinion on dunn doesn't logically flow.

Now, people say illogical things all the time. I certainly do. But if someone came in the thread and had Dunn listed near the top of their town reads list, you can believe I'd be suspicious of that person given how that is clashing with my viewpoint as a town member.

Do you think he could be tmi defending me here? (assume I'm town)

Sure, anything is possible. After that exchange, I don't think andres is for sure being scummy, but if I wanted to read him that way, it's certainly plausible.

[VP Baltar]

Since we are slowly grinding to a standstill here without much original line of thought, I propose we just run Dunn to L-1 and force a claim.

Such a lazy wagon, not interested personally

ur mom is a lazy wagon

[VP Baltar]

Since we are slowly grinding to a standstill here without much original line of thought, I propose we just run Dunn to L-1 and force a claim.

Such a lazy wagon, not interested personally

ur mom is a lazy wagon

But seriously, you don't think there is any way Italiano is town here? My gut still pings town there given he is just putting his foot in his mouth constantly

[VP Baltar]

Dunn, how do you feel about andres?

[VP Baltar]

I know you said you did that in a previous game and got burned by him but yea.

What game was this that I 'burned' vp baltar?

I think he's confused. I was saying Dunn lurked as scum (to great effect actually) when we were scum together. People gave him a pass in that game, including for a lolhammer D1.

I'm going to accept it as truth that Dunn also lurks as town, but I do think he has sort of been a bit coy about actually engaging with this game.

[VP Baltar]

I think there’s Scum pushing Italiano.

To clarify, who is the scum pushing this?

[VP Baltar]

Duchess seems to have quietly drifted into the background since the fight with GC.

[VP Baltar]

Dunn, we aren't likely going to eliminate Tess today, change your vote to someone else and help break the game stall.

[VP Baltar]

baltar, talk to me about your italiano read? is it just a tstbs thing or is there something more?

It definitely feels tstbs. That being said, I'm willing to put my vote there if we need to move things along. Stalling is not useful for the game state and sometimes tstbs is actually just flail scum.

At the very least, a flip of Italiano gives info and progression.

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on andres. (Did I ask that already?)

[VP Baltar]

what's the case on Dunn?

Lurking/trying to be too cool for school. Mostly just based on me getting the same vibe from him as when we were scum together. I've tried to give him a few off ramps to prove he is town to me and that I'm off base, he hasn't taken them.

[VP Baltar]

i'd do elements today if we could get a majority

I'm listening. What are you seeing?

Also is dunn at E-1 now?

[VP Baltar]

also likley partner for GC = Elements.

i wanted to post this now so we can get some reactions based on this. I'm fairly confident on thsi at this point.

Wanna get people's thoughts. I think last scum I'll find in the people ive yet to go through.

I'm not following how you have scum reads on GC and elements when you posted seemingly positive attributes of their play?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, fine, you can be town Datisi

[VP Baltar]

the slow pace of the game

This is really only a development in the past 24-48 hours it seems. What about the rest of the game?

[VP Baltar]

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

[VP Baltar]

I'm not sure why you would trust fall Tess/BM when it looks like your read is a weak gth townlean.
BM voting me is also somewhat questionable.

Tess is gth town - bm has tanked that so far

Errrrrrtttt, wrong.


BM has been way more town than Tess.

[VP Baltar]

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

This is garbage. Why didn't you say anything?

I don't write out every thought I have. It's usually only if I feel strongly about something.

Like, you've definitely said scummy shit this game, but I'm also in the back of my mind thinking Lotus only has one scum read, which isn't a super realistic town perspective on D1.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

tell me more, tell me more

They are like chaining yeets off a bullshit post. Plus, I don't think Dunn is happening today, and no one has seriously pressured RTP.

Last, it struck me as off when you pointed out they said earlier they had too many scum reads, and then they can only post town points about people's play. It is a weird contradiction.

[VP Baltar]

didn't you say you had too many scumreads earlier?

also ok, but how are you coming to partnered / associate reads then?

Oh im mixing stuff up lol

Like this is such a fucking scummy response to getting called on a contradiction. It could be genuine! But this is also the exact way I react when I get called out as scum.

"Oops, lol"

It defuses the situation and ideally, as scum, people stop talking about it.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly I'm not feeling good about VP Baltar. It seems he is willing to jump onto any scumread thrown out there.

Well I based that on the way he was entertaining BM when BM was talking about me and him jumping on RTP just now. I think I recall him throwing out other names, like maybe looking for an elim

I am indeed looking for an elim. That's actually how this game is played. If you think I'm being inconsistent or opportunistic, which seems to be what you're saying, then please explain how that fits with me solo pushing a Dunn wagon for a good chunk of this game?

And yeah, I townread BM. I'm willing to support him.

Why do you think I'm opportunistic and not Datisi? Because I said your read on the game is one dimensional?

[VP Baltar]

Also do you disagree with any of my analysis thus far, and with what? Anyone whos played with me KNOWS you have to catch me as scum based on my reads.

My reads as scum are super stagnant. This is not the case here.

I don't think GC is really scummy, so yes, your analysis doesn't look great.

[VP Baltar]

Frankly, I also think RTP has been a little TMI about Italiano. They have been calling him town since SUPER early, and there was a period there when that definitely was less than obvious.

[VP Baltar]

Welp I was making a post to highlight what I mean but my power went out I will explain later

How about just tell me why you think RTP is town when they are locktowning your only scum read?

[VP Baltar]

Welp I was making a post to highlight what I mean but my power went out I will explain later

How about just tell me why you think RTP is town when they are locktowning your only scum read?

Having a difference in reads isn’t a good basis for reading someone

It is a good reason to be suspicious of someone. Not saying you can't disagree, but on D1, the only info you have as a town person is your own alignment. If someone is the polar opposite of you, that should at least raise a question in your mind.

I've already had this convo once with andres.

[VP Baltar]

BM’s vote on RTP I’m pretty sure wasn’t meant to be going for an elim or apart of a scum read, but rather hold them accountable for the question he asked. That’s why you and Datisi going onto that wagon looks opportunistic. I have other examples of what I mean I will show you in a bit.

I'll save you the time. This is the first time all game I've followed anyone else's vote onto a wagon.

[VP Baltar]

[VP Baltar]

jk, I don't feel confident enough to call the scum team, but I do think an old man just meme'd you, and that must hurt.

[VP Baltar]

Frankly, I also think RTP has been a little TMI about Italiano. They have been calling him town since SUPER early, and there was a period there when that definitely was less than obvious.

Where did i call italiano town early?

weren't you like questioning Datisi over their italianio vote early?

I'm going from memory here, so it's possible I'm wrong.

[VP Baltar]

Frankly, I also think RTP has been a little TMI about Italiano. They have been calling him town since SUPER early, and there was a period there when that definitely was less than obvious.

Where did i call italiano town early?

weren't you like questioning Datisi over their italianio vote early?

I'm going from memory here, so it's possible I'm wrong.

Although looking at your iso, you did question Italianio later on the "are you good at scum" debate.

[VP Baltar]

Also do you disagree with any of my analysis thus far, and with what? Anyone whos played with me KNOWS you have to catch me as scum based on my reads.

My reads as scum are super stagnant. This is not the case here.

I don't think GC is really scummy, so yes, your analysis doesn't look great.

What makes him towny here? I looked myself and i wasn't townreading him anymore.

I didn't get super scum vibes out of his fight with duchess. I can't say he has done a lot memorable since then, but I could say that about a lot of people (ahem, harumi).

[VP Baltar]

I just think im like playing a really tryhard town meta this game bc of my switch up in playstyle to be less toxic and i do suggest those who have played with me consider that before yiu try to hardtunnel me based on a verbal slip up which i make regardless of alignment.

But the fact you've completely changed your playstyle kind of negates your own meta, yeah?

And it doesn't read like just a verbal slippage, it's a completely wrong account of how you personally viewed the game. Accidents definitely happen. But you're asking me to believe that you couldn't remember if you had too many scum reads or town reads?

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: RLotus for randomly voting.

also town

this serious?

Very.

Actually, maybe it was Harumi I was thinking of, not. Italiano.

You locktowned Harumi out of thin air.

[VP Baltar]

All this being said, if you have a legit case on GC, let's here it when you have a chance.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah. Believe it or not my perspectivr changed on reread when i reset my view on the game

Can you tell me more about this? What led to this reset and on who?

[VP Baltar]

Its really as simple as "i did a reread after a couple days off from the game and had a new perspective and forgot about my old one"

Like i can't defend myself about being accused of lying abt something im being honest abt except to say "this is why this happened" which i already did .
Similar thing happened in datisis desperation day - ppl accused me of lying when i was being truthful.

Who specifically did your read shift from scum to town when you reread?

[VP Baltar]

As you can see, VPB is just kind of going wherever he can find a mis elim and not really where he believes scum are.

This is probably the biggest pile of garbage, bad faith post I've read in awhile.

You actually believe in this case or you're trying to say 'here is a way you could read VPB'?

[VP Baltar]

Why is he so willing to jump on like whoever's name gets thrown around as scum? That's not a towny mindset. He isn't coming from a solving perspective. He was willing to elim Duchess, Italiano, Andre, Elements, Dunn, me, and you thus far, based on the mood of the thread and if they can get traction.

Please show me where I have voted for any of those people except for Dunn.

As far as asking people to hear their cases or saying "yeah, I think that person has been scummy too"....what do you expect? 1) I want to see other people making cases. I'm not the only one playing the game here. 2) my Dunn wagon hasn't exactly launched into orbit. I'm probably not going to get that today given people are free passing him for lurking. I have to find another wagon that I find reasonably scummy to support.

I know you've had one scum read this game, but I actually don't know who the scum are and several people have said scummy things this game. I wish I had your confidence.

[VP Baltar]

As far as my interactions with Datisi, I've found him increasingly town over the course of the game. Once that happens, scum is fucked there. I will town block Datisi hard and NKing is the only way out of that. We have played a reasonable number of games together, and Id like to think I know his town play reasonably well.

[VP Baltar]

can we get our collective shit together and elim RTC?

Assuming you mean RTP here.

I'll be honest, I expected RTP to come at me hard after that vote and instead they defended me.

[VP Baltar]

After rereading IVD, maybe I was being unfair at a couple points. I can't say I town read him exactly, but I'll give him breathing room and keep evaluating there

UNVOTE:

Where specifically were you being unfair to Italiano?


Also, who has played with Lotus before? I have a question.

[VP Baltar]

Also, who has played with Lotus before? I have a question.

This should say "has anyone played with Lotus before?"

Posting before coffee is not productive for readability

[VP Baltar]

can we get our collective shit together and elim RTC?

Assuming you mean RTP here.

I'll be honest, I expected RTP to come at me hard after that vote and instead they defended me.

Why did you expect that?

As in, if you were scum, I would expect that. Scum tend to be reactionary to attacks and not call them legitimate points

[VP Baltar]

Well im not scum so ur assumptions are naturally wrong

I'm noting it.

Of course, you're super smart and can dupe me. But still noted.

What do you think of Lotus going off on me? It feels very reachy to me, as does his later Italiano stuff. But I'm also biased since I know for sure his case is bullshit.

[VP Baltar]

an interesting thought has crossed my mind. What if RL is scum, sort of just bobbing along because his scum buddies are inactive; let's say Testarossa and Dunn, then battle mage replaces one of them. Suddenly there's a turnaround in activity from both slots who co-ordinate a back and forth to make both look more towny.

The way BM has engaged with this game feels very different from the scum game I just shared with him. In that game, he posted some serious struggle content, then lurked, then replaced out.

Granted, that was a weird game, but BM feels very loose and natural this game to me.

[VP Baltar]

I may actually do a reads list later today. I think if I do, the actual pool of scum potentials might be pretty small

[VP Baltar]

The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP.

So? I'll change my reads whenever the fuck I want. If I see you acting scummy I'll flip on you like a gator with a turkey leg on Thanksgiving. (I'm definitely not making up Florida sayings here).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RLotus

See! Did it again!

[VP Baltar]

Gonna shoot some hip reads as promised:

Town as fuck:

Battle Mage

- Stated this already, but his play is just loose and ready to rumble. Not what i saw from scum BM before.

Datisi

- Felt a little slow off the blocks, but he's not pushing in lots of directions and I'm frequently nodding along with his posts.

Probably town:

midwaybear

- his play here reminds me a bit of when he was town in a game we shared. Reads are consistent with his pushes.

Green Crayons

- Has made logical, if aggressive arguments. I am probably due for an iso reread of GC to make sure I'm not biased toward the olds.

ItalianoVD

- He has said some scummy things, but he's just spewing a ton if he is scum. Also, Lotus' laser focus is disingenuous, meaning IVD is likely town.

Andresvmb

- I think he has had some weird opinions (like calling Testa town off nothing, though now that read seems correct), but overall he seems to be making logical pushes.

I still have some concerns, but unlikely to want a yeet on them today:

Elements

- I can't say I hard disagree with their positions, but wish they were in the thread a bit more.

Duchess

- I'm still not settled on whether their aggression with GC was legit or fabricated. I also don't love that they've disappeared from the thread when the spotlight went off. Still, some of their thread spewing felt like it would be very hard to fake as scum.

I go back and forth:

Reformed Toxic Player

- Main reservation here is the point I made about laughing off a considerable goof, and that RTP is a good scum player. I will say that their play this game seems less chaos making and more trying to actually solve the game, which gives me town vibes. I'm still trying to sort how much of that I'm feeling based on the changed playstyle.

Harumi Ayasato

- lol, who?

Kill, kill, kill

Dunnstral

- explanation given.

RLotus

- this dude tunneled the fuck out of Italiano all game, and then is acting like I'm taking public polling to decide where I place my vote. Bad faith arguments and tunnely behavior is two strikes in my book.

[VP Baltar]

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

hot take but the top 3 wagons here are TvTvT

I think the likelihood they are all town seems quite low actually.

Italiano is opportunistic enough to just be bad scum here, but maybe elements has some thoughts to add on that since he caught him before.

Dunn's answers sound like they are coming from a vitamin salesman. "You will FEEEL younger, I swear."

Elements has been pretty absent, but I felt town there early.

"Absent" is an extremely generous way of describing Elements's thread activity at the time. Were you aware they were dodging my direct questions while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines? There is substance in Elements's absence that you didn't touch on here at all.

I don't like the way you've approached RTP in this post. Rather than caring to understand how they've come to those conclusions, you show up to throw a little one-liner grease on the fire for each wagon and then drop it. What's your current read of RTP?

Re: GC - over aggression is way more likely to be a scum trait, imo. Scum are fake scum hunting, so will often push points past an obvious conclusion because that would mean the scum would then have to come up with an entirely new angle to push. That is work when you are scum. Town is way more relaxed because those lines of inquiry emerge naturally as a result of having no actual clue what is true and what is false.

That, of course, doesn't mean town can't be aggressive. I'm just looking at authenticity vs. manufactured outrage.

Re: "dodging" your questions and elements - I don't know what you want me to say. You think I should be hyped up about some interaction you're having with Elements? I don't remember reading anything of substance there, but maybe I skimmed it or it seemed boring to me. We're other players picking up on this? Or you think there is a reason I, in particular, should have noticed this?

My current read of RTP is lean town. I'm trying to recalibrate to the change in style by Koba. They are a very good player, and I tend to not assign concrete reads early in a game anyhow because I'm often wrong and need to stay flexible until I have a good working theory of the game. I try to especially stay flexible on players who are very good.

You didn't answer my question. You have mentioned the Duchess/GC/Italiano debacle several times but haven't provided any conclusions, up to this point. Why did you say "aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious"?

My point is you made the assumption that Elements's lack of activity was merely being an "absence" when it was clearly evasion (something to which they themself have admitted), which tells me you haven't exactly been paying attention to the slot in a way that town looking for answers might be. If Elements was not enough on your radar for you to notice the blatant question-dodging and thread-fleeing, why did you choose to comment about them here at all? I find it harder to trust that the statements you make are true and genuine.

This answer doesn't address my concerns about your interaction with RTP. If you think it will be more difficult to read them than other players, or if you're giving special attention to your read of that slot, why didn't you engage further on that point if your reads were so opposite? Did you not care to understand how (or why, if scum) RTP came to those conclusions?

I did answer your question about aggression. it's in the post you quoted.

I really can't even follow whatever you are trying to say about Elements. I've read this like 10 times and it is incoherent. Like, you think I should have characterized Elements as "evasive" but instead I chose to use the word "absent." I don't think him being absent from the thread is a positive thing. This feels like you're having a semantics argument and I really don't understand the point or why you think that makes me scummy -- or whatever you're trying to say.

re: why didn't I engage further with RTP's "hot take" - I don't know. I guess I didn't find it that interesting or revealing about their alignment. Felt like them throwing out a comment to gather opinions, and I gave mine. It's not like it was some line of inquiry I started that I was super interested in.

[VP Baltar]

i dont get why ur so hung up about the mistake when i very clearly had an immediate reasoning for it - one that is completely plausible.

Probably because I don't want to get fooled by you and it that one hit me in the gut hard.

[VP Baltar]

I really can't even follow whatever you are trying to say about Elements. I've read this like 10 times and it is incoherent. Like, you think I should have characterized Elements as "evasive" but instead I chose to use the word "absent." I don't think him being absent from the thread is a positive thing. This feels like you're having a semantics argument and I really don't understand the point or why you think that makes me scummy -- or whatever you're trying to say.

Unless, Duchess, you're trying to say I'm scum buddies with Elements...in which case, what evidence do you have without a flip?

[VP Baltar]

is your avi someone I should know RTP? It looks like this guy I used to know way back and it wigs me out. (ftr, he was not a toxic human)

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar you've seen me with low activity as scum before. OK, that's not an end-all-be-all case against me. That happens as town too. "He's lurking" was never a case against me, and saying 'exactly' when asked what I did to make me get votes is also not a case against me.

The tunneling can be scum-motivated in that it doesn't pay attention to other slots (you're not doing this though)

So how should one differentiate your scum lurking from your town lurking?

[VP Baltar]

This isn't disney world on your birthday. No free passes.

Anyhow, what do you think of Lotus' case on me?

[VP Baltar]

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

I honestly don't remember you "catching" elements lurking or whatever. I'll be real with you though: you write a lot of words to say very little, so it's possible I skimmed some bullshit from you that looked boring. My bad.

If you'd like to reiterate your elements case, I'm listening.

[VP Baltar]

See 225, Elements.

You're saying this post is where you "caught" elements lurking?

[VP Baltar]

I voiced a great deal of frustration about it.

What other posts did you make that you were expressing frustration?

[VP Baltar]

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

[VP Baltar]

hellooooooooooooooo i'm here do i really have to read 12 pages?

someone give me cliff notes. who are we wagoning?

It's a fast read. There is some thread spam you can move quickly through

[VP Baltar]

Datisi - Felt a little slow off the blocks, but he's not pushing in lots of directions and I'm frequently nodding along with his posts.

*Now pushing in a lot of directions

[VP Baltar]

This isn't disney world on your birthday. No free passes.

Anyhow, what do you think of Lotus' case on me?

It looked fair to me.

So what this means is you're reading the game and intentionally choosing not to post about it, as opposed to just casually lurking because you don't feel like efforting.

I reiterate, how is one supposed to tell your town and scum lurking apart?

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler:

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

See 225, Elements.

You're saying this post is where you "caught" elements lurking?

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

I honestly don't remember you "catching" elements lurking or whatever. I'll be real with you though: you write a lot of words to say very little, so it's possible I skimmed some bullshit from you that looked boring. My bad.

If you'd like to reiterate your elements case, I'm listening.

This is all mis-representation of what Duchess was saying and then completely ignoring Duchess' responses where his points are disproved. He just keeps of with the same line of thought that's just not true.

Oh this is fascinating. I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

Duchess' posts are a fucking incoherent mess. Without quoting duchess, I would like you to please tell me the nature of the argument duchess is making and what I'm ignoring about it. I want to see you state this originally, since you say it is very clear.

[VP Baltar]

This isn't disney world on your birthday. No free passes.

Anyhow, what do you think of Lotus' case on me?

It looked fair to me.

How did you evaluate the fairness of it if you hadn't read the ge context around the posts of mine he cited? Or did you do that too when I asked you to give your opinion on the case?

[VP Baltar]

I thought of a way to make this real easy for you, VP.

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

Let me be more to-the-point. Are you saying you're suspicious of us both being scum? If that's what this means then that's the answer to my question, and I don't understand your aversion to having that on record in your ISO. Otherwise I have no idea what you're getting at and I need an explanation.

This is literally from 30 or so pages ago. Are you asking me if I think you both could be scum now or then?

When I wrote it, I was saying that the aggression coming from each of you pinged me because it was so heightened for early game. As I said the first time you asked me this, the question for me was whether the aggression you guys were putting out was real or manufactured, and if the latter, who was manufacturing it? This was all in the answer you got originally and I don't know what you are confused about.

You're being similarly aggressive throughout this line of questioning. Saying things like "you probably don't want this in your ISO", when you're just having me repeat the same fucking answer you got on page 14.

[VP Baltar]

Let me make something clear: you are the one putting emphasis on the "caught". I said I caught them online like how you catch the last half of your favourite movie on Showtime, or when you tell a friend you'll catch 'em later. For some reason you are latching onto that detail and running a mile with it, making it out like I claimed to have caught Al Capone.

Lol oh really.

Here is the heart of your statement in Post 989.

[Elements] fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it.

You write several sentences about this fight with elements and how you had him on the ropes, and WHY OH WHY DIDN'T VP CONSIDER THAT WHEN HE TALKED TO RTP!!!!!

To now say, after I spent a bunch of time looking back at this, that you were actually just telling a friend "catch you later", is complete garbage.

I'm not going to wall war you, so this is the last thing I'm saying on this topic, but you are either tunneled so far up your own ass you won't be seeing daylight until 2050, or your scum who thinks you're going to score cheap points off someone. Either way, you look pretty useless.

[VP Baltar]

I continued to try to directly engage Elements and eventually tried to rally for pressure votes. There is only so much you can do on an online forum to get someone's attention. I didn't have any sort of big angry emotional post or anything because I was trying to get them to respond, not scare them out of the thread. But it was extremely frustrating to me in the moment.

Last thing I'll say on this, is this is a hilarious walkback after I pressed you for the actual specifics -- like I asked you for the posts -- you said I missed.

Hell, I even said to you I might have missed something!

But when asked what I should have saw beyond a post where you said "elements, post 225", you tell me you didn't actually have any big angry posts I should have seen because you didn't want to scare them out of the thread.


*Farting noises commence*

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler:

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

See 225, Elements.

You're saying this post is where you "caught" elements lurking?

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

I honestly don't remember you "catching" elements lurking or whatever. I'll be real with you though: you write a lot of words to say very little, so it's possible I skimmed some bullshit from you that looked boring. My bad.

If you'd like to reiterate your elements case, I'm listening.

This is all mis-representation of what Duchess was saying and then completely ignoring Duchess' responses where his points are disproved. He just keeps of with the same line of thought that's just not true.

Oh this is fascinating. I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

Duchess' posts are a fucking incoherent mess. Without quoting duchess, I would like you to please tell me the nature of the argument duchess is making and what I'm ignoring about it. I want to see you state this originally, since you say it is very clear.

Btw, elements, the longer you take to answer this, the more likely you are scum

[VP Baltar]

my one worry was that the timing of this is oddly opportunistic, but on second thought i'm not quite on that being the case considering their absence and the fact they're replying to an older post

I looked into this. Duchess's post was only a couple posts before they disappeared, so it is pretty close to picking up where they left off.

As much as I'm annoyed by Duchess here, the evidence does favor tunneling town.

[VP Baltar]

lol
in that case im not answering

Lol hilarious

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, let me reread your exchanges with RTP again.

My sense the first time through was that they felt like fair questions, but I also didn't find RTP super scummy in the exchange. There was one in particular I remember having a thought about, but I didn't post it because it would have given RTP a potential answer. Let me see if that comes back to me on reread after I feed my cats.

[VP Baltar]

Let me see if that comes back to me on reread after I feed my cats.

how many pets do you have?

Three cats and a dog!

[VP Baltar]

Ok Datisi, couple things I see out of this exchange. You asked RTP how they felt about Italiano, which makes a lot of sense to me given your scum read there.

In reply, RTP said:

It's a sort of energy thing - the way they are playing does not come off as informed to me. Idk if you have noted by now but I tend to have pretty strong and accurate reads on LHF slots, like italiano, wrt reading how their bumbling around is. I think they are genuine and also combined with how their energy felt when we rolled scum together - I think that is towny. If I have to eat crow so be it - i do think an investigative is worth using on that slot. That combined with the fact I have a team read atm that I feel looks like... it fits? so far makes me confident rn

Which felt genuine to me. The part that really resonated with me is RTP being able to pick out the low hanging fruit players. I recall seeing them do that in other games, where they just go against the grain if someone is pushing a weak player. Does that make them right? I don't know, but it is a thing they do, so that response came across as genuine to me.

You obviously wanted more specifics than that and didn't get them, but it didn't strike me as scummy.


The other thing that stuck out to me was your Q on your own early play:

where/how did my early play feel agenda-y?

This I almost replied to because I had the same gut reaction to your early play, and it was hard to quantify. It didn't seem as engaged as usual (though I know you are in a lot of games, which is probably why I wrote it off early). Like, if forced, I could probably go back and figure out specific posts that triggered that feeling, but offhand I can't. It was just a vibe. So RTP saying that also didn't strike me as scummy, but mainly because I felt similarly ambivalent about your play early on. I alluded to this when I said I had a town read on andres (which admittedly was in part to see your reax).

[VP Baltar]

Hello. Haven't read, doing so now. Might take a little bit.

Thanks for replacing in!

[VP Baltar]

i've got a plan
let's vote me out to prove all your speculations about me being scum wrong
VOTE: elements

What was duchess's case on me that I was misrepresenting?

[VP Baltar]

Let me make something clear: you are the one putting emphasis on the "caught". I said I caught them online like how you catch the last half of your favourite movie on Showtime, or when you tell a friend you'll catch 'em later. For some reason you are latching onto that detail and running a mile with it, making it out like I claimed to have caught Al Capone.

Lol oh really.

Here is the heart of your statement in Post 989.

[Elements] fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it.

You write several sentences about this fight with elements and how you had him on the ropes, and WHY OH WHY DIDN'T VP CONSIDER THAT WHEN HE TALKED TO RTP!!!!!

To now say, after I spent a bunch of time looking back at this, that you were actually just telling a friend "catch you later", is complete garbage.

I'm not going to wall war you, so this is the last thing I'm saying on this topic, but you are either tunneled so far up your own ass you won't be seeing daylight until 2050, or your scum who thinks you're going to score cheap points off someone. Either way, you look pretty useless.

Elements, here is the post where I address duchess's claims. Would love your feed back on what I said here

[VP Baltar]

Someone please give me a sanity check like i feel confident here but i need a 3rd party opinion between this LOL i dont wanna be wrong here

I will closely read this exchange later when I have time.

[VP Baltar]

first of all, i never thought they're scummy for being suspicious of my early play, all my issues were from lack of a proper elaboration. i also take "unenganged" to be different than "agenda-y" - the former being not as interested, the latter being intentionally misleading/malicious. (though if i'm misunderstanding what agenda-y means, do call me out.) which is why i was interested in what gave the feeling of an agenda (what i read as intentional malice/leading astray) as opposed to just vibe/being uninterested/the way i'm presenting myself/what have you.

i did notice that. did you get anything from my reax?

That's a fair distinction to make between disengaged and agenda-y.

As far as my takeaway on you, it felt like your town self to really push someone for specifics without being rude about it. That was my general takeaway

[VP Baltar]

Elements, here is the post where I address duchess's claims. Would love your feed back on what I said here

Having re-read 989, the entire things seems utterly pointless:
You commented on my low activity
Duchess asked if you had thought about my dodging of the questions posed to me
You said you hadn't considered it as it wasn't a particularly big thing
Duchess said they did a whole push on me because of it, how could you possibly have not seen it.

Given it was an entirely one-sided interaction consisting of 4? posts I can see how you would have not noticed it.

I apologise for not reading through it properly. I rescind my scumread off you. I should really read things properly before commenting.
UNVOTE:

In fairness, you explained it more clearly than duchess has to this point...

[VP Baltar]

As far as my takeaway on you, it felt like your town self to really push someone for specifics without being rude about it. That was my general takeaway

do you think scum!me is rude?

also, i was asking about the last parenthesis in your 1066. i thought that was talking about my reaction to 298?

Ohhhhh, got you.

You shrugged it off, which I took as pretty NAI. It was a lark just to see if anything interesting happened.

Iirc, you also engaged me directly around then when I poked again and said I was surprised you weren't scum reading me. You said you were town reading me, which felt like you were maybe either pocketing me or you are starting to get me and can tell when I'm being my transparent townself. I didn't make up my mind at that point, but overtime your play has seemed more like your town play in other games, so it is likely the latter.

[VP Baltar]

I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

I disagree so much. Why are scum taking such a hard route as opposed to just jump on RTP or Elements when that would be so much safer. Like you are a highly townread slot and my push on you already has shown to have a lot of resistance.

Because it is stupid and bad faith. It hasn't met resistance so much as you're making terrible points that you're trying to take out of context. Anyone can go read the stuff you're pointing to and see how much of a misrepresentation it is.

[VP Baltar]

Jesus, I can't believe I'm going to respond to this wall, but I feel like it is my duty to point out how bad this RLotus case is. (full case is in Post 869 for reference)

First thing he points to:

Taking advantage of Duchess v GC

How am I taking advantage of it, you might ask?

I called out what i saw as an overly high amount of aggression, particularly from Duchess.

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

You call that combative?

As a reformed toxic player, I'm sure you wouldn't understand casual combativeness.

Yeah, I think Duchess had a bit of a bad faith response to GC

Why is that taking advantage you ask? I don't know. I made a comment on what I saw taking place. Duchess has been an absolute shit to me as well recently, so clearly I wasn't just making this up out of thin air, but rather pointing out a pattern of behavior. In said shitfest from Duchess, there is a post where I point out that faked aggression can come from scum who mistake bravado for scum hunting.

Next, RLotus points to this post as suspicious.

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

He says I'm "gauging interest" on IVD here. Cool story, except I was clearly asking andres for a reason: Understanding his thoughts and positions on the key topic of the game at that point: Duchess v. GC

The follow up posts ARE LITERALLY RIGHT THERE IF YOU DON'T CHERRY PICK:

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.

I'm mostly thinking how IVD is interacting with the GC/Duchess fight.

Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?

I did also think though that Duchess in 201 had a point, in that Italiano and Green Crayons could be aligned, with Duchess having hit a nerve of some sort. However, I didn’t think that Duchess’ confidence was entirely warranted.

So if you’re asking me what I think on a stand-alone basis, I thought Italiano was okay. Taking a side on the more meaningful spat D1 isn’t necessarily bad. If there’s anything that I would scrutinize later in the game is that little nugget I believe you highlighted about having some faith in Elements’ gut reads. Just something to watch out for.

Andres wins my first solid town read of the game.

I hope you are shamed, Datisi.

I asked a question, gained information from it that informed my reads. RLotus willfully selected posts without reading context.


Then Lotus says I'm "taking advantage of Lotus/Datisi's push on IVD" because I asked a rhetorical question, highlighting Italiano being scummy in his replies.

Let me take a chill pill for a minute. I read your 306 Duchess. I’ll respond it to it later. Same with you @Datisi wrt 272

UNVOTE: Duchess

What if Italiano really is just scum here?

Like, duh. do you understand anything about using rhetoric? I'm directly jabbing at Italiano there. Am I not allowed to find a response by Italiano to be scummy because I'm not working the wagon as my primary source? This is nonsense.

He even says me pressuring Italiano is scummy in this post!

Italiano, can you respond specifically to this contradiction Lotus has highlighted around your own views of your scum ability?

It's fair to say I'm not pursuing Italiano as my main at that point, but I'm assisting in pressure to a what I saw as a good point. If Lotus really believes Italiano is scum (as he tunneled all game), this point is nonsensical. Particularly when I don't see him scouring pages for every time someone applies pressure to a wagon they are not actively on. Again, this is cherry picking. It also selectively ignores posts like 417 and 430 and 436 and etc where I'm actively pushing on Italiano on my own.

This isn't hard to fact check. I went to my ISO and ctrl+f'ed "Italiano". I actually talk about him a decent amount.

[VP Baltar]

like, do I need to go on. I'm just addressing these in order you've posted them and there isn't a legit point in the bunch yet.

[VP Baltar]

his lack of solving effort.

Dude, I have posted a full reads list that is very clear and I've done far more to advance the game than you have. That's indisputable.

Meanwhile, I bring you live coverage of RLotus' game prior to trying to walk out some fabricated BS on me:

Scum
Italiano

[VP Baltar]

RTP - help me here. Am I falling into the same toxic bullshit that I got into with Taylor? I'm trying to be reasonable here, but I have a hard time when people are clearly selectively picking posts.

[VP Baltar]

RTP - help me here. Am I falling into the same toxic bullshit that I got into with Taylor? I'm trying to be reasonable here, but I have a hard time when people are clearly selectively picking posts.

i dont know but everyone needs to take a step back right now bc this isn't helpful.

can you post an updated reads list for me? preferably with some reasoning.

RLlotus, you too since i havent seen much in terms of reads from you.

I've signed off my computer and I'm back on my phone, so I probably won't post a full list tonight, but I can get this up tomorrow.

You're probably in my some reservations, but not into yeeting category. I think your response to pressure has come off townie.

I still need to read this exchange you had with GC.

Also waiting for maxwell to catch up so I can get a read on the Harumi slot. Elements fell some for buying a bad argument from duchess without reading it closely.

Duchess is I don't even fucking know. It's a stupid level of aggression that would just be terrible scum play, but I have zero experience with them. Lotus and Duchess feeding off each other's garbage isn't great, but could be just the blind leading the blind like Taylor and whoever that other person was in our shared game.

[VP Baltar]

hellooooooooooooooo i'm here do i really have to read 12 pages?

someone give me cliff notes. who are we wagoning?

It's a fast read. There is some thread spam you can move quickly through

alright, caught up to this point and just want to say


Baltar lies

Haha, sorry

[VP Baltar]

Well when I say push I mean sitting on the sideline throwing shade, egging it on, without ever really coming to a conclusion.

Except, that's not what happened at all. That is my point. You repeating something over and over doesn't make it true. I'm not going to keep arguing this with you. I've pointed out very explicitly from your own examples that you're not reading the context or even the next exact posts after the ones you're selecting.

[VP Baltar]

Yes you posted a reads list after I criticized you for not trying to solve the game, and I believe being prompted by someone else to make one.

This is false as well

[VP Baltar]

I may actually do a reads list later today. I think if I do, the actual pool of scum potentials might be pretty small

Gonna shoot some hip reads as promised:

Town as fuck:

Battle Mage

- Stated this already, but his play is just loose and ready to rumble. Not what i saw from scum BM before.

Datisi

- Felt a little slow off the blocks, but he's not pushing in lots of directions and I'm frequently nodding along with his posts.

Probably town:

midwaybear

- his play here reminds me a bit of when he was town in a game we shared. Reads are consistent with his pushes.

Green Crayons

- Has made logical, if aggressive arguments. I am probably due for an iso reread of GC to make sure I'm not biased toward the olds.

ItalianoVD

- He has said some scummy things, but he's just spewing a ton if he is scum. Also, Lotus' laser focus is disingenuous, meaning IVD is likely town.

Andresvmb

- I think he has had some weird opinions (like calling Testa town off nothing, though now that read seems correct), but overall he seems to be making logical pushes.

I still have some concerns, but unlikely to want a yeet on them today:

Elements

- I can't say I hard disagree with their positions, but wish they were in the thread a bit more.

Duchess

- I'm still not settled on whether their aggression with GC was legit or fabricated. I also don't love that they've disappeared from the thread when the spotlight went off. Still, some of their thread spewing felt like it would be very hard to fake as scum.

I go back and forth:

Reformed Toxic Player

- Main reservation here is the point I made about laughing off a considerable goof, and that RTP is a good scum player. I will say that their play this game seems less chaos making and more trying to actually solve the game, which gives me town vibes. I'm still trying to sort how much of that I'm feeling based on the changed playstyle.

Harumi Ayasato

- lol, who?

Kill, kill, kill

Dunnstral

- explanation given.

RLotus

- this dude tunneled the fuck out of Italiano all game, and then is acting like I'm taking public polling to decide where I place my vote. Bad faith arguments and tunnely behavior is two strikes in my book.

[VP Baltar]

RLotus is consistently spewing bullshit lies that are easily checked in thread. This is absolutely disinformation he is running against me. It's almost tstbs at this point and I don't even know what to make of it.

[VP Baltar]

VPB and Datisi are not both Scum here. I’m going to go out on a limb and claim that’s impossible based on how they’ve played. GC yeah maybe is Scum, but if they’re not, then what? You agree one of Italiano/Duchess deserves some scrutiny then right? But no mention of that? I’m not following.

duchess has been on my backburner and i keep reminding myself about that slot - they are definitely hard under the radar alongside harumi slot maxwell - i still think harumi leans town here though.

Did you ever explain this townread/slip on harumi? I don't have a clue on that slot

[VP Baltar]

can you cite a scum game of mine where my reads were this chaotic btw

No I can’t cite any game where you’ve been this chaotic at all. It’s confusing as hell to me. That’s why I’m struggling with how to read you.

God I feel this.

[VP Baltar]

Not a super fan of RTP running interference with andres for RLotus after I start dismantling the terribad case. Feels convenient.

Also worth noting that Lotus ignores parts of my reply to his case that look particularly bad (such as the posts where I was questioning Italiano, and Lotus said I had not done that).

I'm caught up.

Agenda items include:

Reread RTP/GC interaction
Reread Datisi/Italiano interaction
Probably iso Elements.

I'm going to try to dial back posting today so people can catch up.

[VP Baltar]

Can everyone please stop self-metaing. It is garbage.

[VP Baltar]

Can everyone please stop self-metaing. It is garbage.

Got a problem with me proving that im <rand scum due to meta? I'm providing the meta so you can evaluate. It's up to you to say if you believe me or not - I'm not gonna hold your hand.

I actually don't need you to hold my hand is what I'm saying. And I'm not directing this comment just at you. There have been multiple references to self meta in this game and it makes me want to puke. I'm not opposed to meta use, but arguing 'this is my town game' is incredibly useless since if a person is aware of their meta, they can play against it.

[VP Baltar]

this is my town game

SCUMMMMMM

[VP Baltar]

yeah we're over 50 pages deep, i just wanna see a flip now.

I agree. You opposed to flipping lotus?

[VP Baltar]

VPB

- Makes pushes with no conclusion. Not attempting to solve the game. Extremely shallow/surface level reads on myself and Dunn.
Green Crayons - I don't have a big case on him. Potentially whit knighted Elements and VPB if he is town. RTP seems confident.
Harumi- Absent
midwaybear- kinda just nullish

sorry mate but none of this is particularly compelling. 4 scumreads, 2 of which are "absent" and "null". Although I'd say that's marginally better than "RTP seems confident".

VPB is an interesting take, but not for me today.

can we plz get a

votecount?

I highly suggest you have some humility when it comes to your reads because you seem to be ego playing and it really isn't conducive to a town win. It also makes it hard to ascertain your alignment here - as you are just being stubborn and stubbornness is just a trait that is easily adopted into scumplay.

Like can you at least try to interact with me please?

RTP, you've interjected yourself into conversations Lotus was having several times now....why?

[VP Baltar]

I think Green Crayons came off worse in his arguments with Duchess and RTP, want to dig into the weeds thereto be sure but felt the way he was arguing was underhanded at times.

This is interesting.

[VP Baltar]

I think Green Crayons came off worse in his arguments with Duchess and RTP, want to dig into the weeds thereto be sure but felt the way he was arguing was underhanded at times.

This is interesting.

As in, I want to hear your thoughts on specifics of this and what pinged you when you have time.

[VP Baltar]

RTP looks more town, simply because I don't think they get that worked up in thread as scum.

In related news, I'd appreciate if we stop with the toxicity and gaslighting this game. It is way over the top and unnecessary, nor fun for anyone. It's just a game, let's all chill and have fun.

[VP Baltar]

RTP looks more town, simply because I don't think they get that worked up in thread as scum.

In related news, I'd appreciate if we stop with the toxicity and gaslighting this game. It is way over the top and unnecessary, nor fun for anyone. It's just a game, let's all chill and have fun.

me rn while scumreading vpb still after posting something like this that appeals to my frustrations

Fwiw, I would never manipulate someone like that in a game. It's unethical. You're welcome to scum read me based on my play, but I'd never use thread drama just to win. That's dirty pool.

[VP Baltar]

RTP, now do you feel about elements again?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: elements

If I can't get Dunn today, this feels like a good compromise. I've been kind of lazily hanging on to a town read of elements, but when you look at their iso, it is a bit of a bore. I really didn't like their latch onto defending Duchess's push on me either, and then they disappeared when is slapped that down.

I'm also tired of starting wagons, and people need to compromise here so we can get a claim with enough time before deadline.

[VP Baltar]

when is slapped that down.

When I

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, what's the bullet point case on Italiano scum?

[VP Baltar]

- his way of dismissing/shading me gives me vibes of scum who wants to scumread me but doesn't know how / doesn't want me to get back on their ass again - like for the amount of things he implies are scummy about me i don't see how he can have me as lolnull

Which posts of his do you feel like he is implying you're scummy?

[VP Baltar]

Just a few examples is fine

[VP Baltar]

A townblock of {Me, BM, RTP, VPB, Datisi, Duchess, GC} probably just wins the game.

This is like the avengers if true. IDK if I'm quite ready to jump in on this town bloc yet.

That being said, I feel fairly comfortable with Datisi, BM, RTP at the moment.

[VP Baltar]

- his way of dismissing/shading me gives me vibes of scum who wants to scumread me but doesn't know how / doesn't want me to get back on their ass again - like for the amount of things he implies are scummy about me i don't see how he can have me as lolnull

Which posts of his do you feel like he is implying you're scummy?

i went to look for these but i opened my own iso instead of italiano's, and it took me a good 5 seconds to figure out why italiano's posts aren't appearing on the screen

anyway

615 gives me the vibe of shading me for not giving him the same ~benefit of the doubt~ that i apparently want for myself
which i did call out at the time (618), i don't think i got a response

1./5. the game is dead because 4-5 people are barely playing or not playing at all and the moderator had abandoned us for half a week too. wow.

The fact that it doesn't at least somewhat frustrate you or allow you to understand why someone else would be frustrated by it is telling to me.

i was calling out the "this game is dead, i can't figure it out" thing as blatantly obvious to figure out, and his conclusion from that is that it's weird that i'm not frustrated by it (which is false and i never said that but besides the point) and that it's "telling" to him. what's it telling?

You scumreading me for your reasons are goofy to me, but I’m not gonna change your mind and I’m not gonna try to, I’m gonna move on.

and this just, like ok my reasons are "goofy". am i scum bullshitting? am i a townie making a mistake? nah my reasons are just goofy he's not gonna try to change my mind

pedit: dude i am trying i'm braindead again give me a bit

Ok, thanks. I can see that from your perspective. I guess there is a certain aloofness to Italiano's play that gives me pause on a scum read, but if I was in your shoes I'd probably find it more scummy than I do.

The second post you cite does indeed look bad.

[VP Baltar]

I hate that I started this day super confident in my reads, and now everything is mush.

[VP Baltar]

GC, are you still scum reading RTP? Gonna be real, I don't see their play and emotion coming from a scum place.

[VP Baltar]

i think they have reevaluated their reads something like three or four times just in D1? want to iso but this is basically the exact opposite of a tunnel. it does suggest flexibility and freedom, but i believe there was some self-meta discussion about how RTP is purposefully acting this way to avoid his past meta or something like that? like i said i need to iso and review

They have definitely shifted reads a lot. It's a question of whether you think that is natural.

My argument would be that you could certainly shift wildly as a scum tactic, but it really feels uncomfortable because you know you're making it up and there is inherent risk someone calls you on it. Town players don't feel that risk.

I think RTP's recent play is certainly drawing more attention to themselves than is necessary as scum faking reads. Just my 2c

[VP Baltar]

this is a mood. s'there any you think discuss w me would help?

I don't think so. I really don't feel super confident in the elements wagon, and I wish I shared your assuredness on Italiano.

I was hoping we'd continue our streak of brilliant last minute scum decimation, but I just don't have strong vibes on anyone. I have more town reads than anything, which is great, but doesn't necessarily help with nailing a scum today.


If you couldn't get italiano today, who would be your last minute speed yeet ftw candidate?