Mini Normal 2242 | Opossum Mafia | Game Over!

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Hey.

VOTE: fua

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quirkiness is towny for an average by-the-book player but for someone like me if im forcing a joke too hard it means im scum, very simple

hawaiian pizza kinda sus ngl
scumread by the entirety of reddit

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I think Osetr is town.

fua is really obvious scum.

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Also, frankly rude to tell someone new not to play again.

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I think Osetr is town.

fua is really obvious scum.

No, I'm not. You just haven't played with me before.

Given that you're a new account (alt, I presume), I would say exactly no one has played with you before.

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Also, frankly rude to tell someone new not to play again.

Anyone, for that matter

New or not.

His content is disturbing and disrespectful towards basically everyone here who's actually trying to play the game. I wouldn't say it if he was intentionally going out of his way to break the rules.

So are you voting him because he's disrespectful or because you think he's mafia?

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Also, frankly rude to tell someone new not to play again.

Anyone, for that matter

New or not.

His content is disturbing and disrespectful towards basically everyone here who's actually trying to play the game. I wouldn't say it if he was intentionally going out of his way to break the rules.

So are you voting him because he's disrespectful or because you think he's mafia?

Both!

Why's he scum, then, because every post you have made is based on indicating personal distaste for his posting rather than mentioning any reason you think he could actually be mafia

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T3's posts are awful.

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HawaiianPizza is town.

Thought GeorgeBailey was town early but need to see more from him.

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Well, he's no longer a player in this game, so fua is going to have to justify their vote with something besides policy.

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The claim is very likely a lie. It's fine, though.


fua is still very blatantly mafia.

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And I'm not saying it being a lie means anything about cool cookie's alignment.

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Nah.

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And I'm not saying it being a lie means anything about cool cookie's alignment.

>rand town post btw

disagree. just hedging bets.

Do you really think scum jacket would care that much about being right though?

i saw the chain of events as:

Jacket makes quite bold statement in context of statement
In 320, Jacket begins to walk it back
In next post, when challenged to explain original statement, refuses to even acknowledge it

I think you're full of shit.

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I think redtea's reaction to being wagoned is bad.

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I kinda want to give them a night to see if there are 2 kills.

If they're town, scum probably does the job for us.

They get nowhere near Elo with that claim.

The thing is that complex vig is mostly downside. It an only produce an extra kill if it's targeting a PR. Otherwise they just act like there's no kill because they targeted a VT. And if we're to believe the claim about the bulletproof traitor then that' one mafia member that can't be killed. We don't even know if the other mafia are PRs.


The claim also feels very convenient in that it "fits" with cookie's claim. That feels very convenient.

Not that I'm saying we should just end the day. But I don't think it's some role that's so valuable the mafia will be forced to kill it if it's real.

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The scum team never has Goons in a 2 Mafia + Traitor scenario, so a failed kill should be considered a clear.

I think making assumptions about setup composition based on what you think is balanced is a very bad idea.

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actually I think you both are saying the same thing
I'm not actually back but I'm checking in, which has apparently been a mistake because I'm all over the place

I think redtea's reaction to being wagoned is bad.

well thats just cause you're scummy
is that a take ive posted yet?

Am I scummy because I think your reaction is bad?

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fua is still obvious mafia. House seems fine. Not much else is interesting.

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do the people that found oster scummy have opinions about dwlee

I voted Osetr because I didn't like them and because they would be a liability in ELo.

Dwlee so far is not that but also not much else either.

You were concerned about someone being an ELO liability on day 1?

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I'm not going to think too deeply about asoociatives on day 1. I'm just going to vote people I find scummy.

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I'm not, but I also don't think I'm seasoned enough to think of a fakeclaim like that without help from a partner.

Okay. I buy it.

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Why?

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Although if you’re going to actually vote me out, you should at least let me claim before the hammer.

i-......
Wow this is scum.

Seems more like you're trying to force a point of an entirely neutral statement being scummy.

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need jacket to explain why he townread osetr/me tbh

i am not getting an answer, am i

I don't feel like explaining, yeah.

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I kind of want to let Dwlee prove himself? Osetr’s posts aren’t alignment indicative in hindsight because 90% of his posts were just trolling.

You said you legitimately thought Osetr was scum though.

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need jacket to explain why he townread osetr/me tbh

i am not getting an answer, am i

I don't feel like explaining, yeah.

You sure don't say a lot of things

Yeah.

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I kind of want to let Dwlee prove himself? Osetr’s posts aren’t alignment indicative in hindsight because 90% of his posts were just trolling.

You said you legitimately thought Osetr was scum though.

I don’t think that anymore after context of him being banned from another site and a cursory reread.

That doesn't make sense.

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VOTE: T3

Don't like fua but like 667 less.

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who in my poe do i vote next

I think you should OMGUS.

VOTE: Jacket

His ISO is a nothing-burger, and I don't like his push on one of our only players who are actually up in here trying to solve.

You think T3 is legitimately trying to solve? Because it looks to me like he's just spewing a lot of nonsense. The post I quoted of his was a huge reach and looked like scum trying to bury a townie.

And if you think my posting is a "nothing-burger", you're not paying attention. Just because I'm not incessantly spamming doesn't mean I have nothing to say.

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I could see ZenMan as scum who couldn't figure out what to post and flaked. That's just a guess, though.

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So?

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As a matter of fact..

VOTE: Jacket

My money is on this flipping a Scum PR (

the

Scum PR??)

Do you think I would deliberately antagonize the claimed vig as a scum PR?

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The claim is very likely a lie.

Are crumbing "Scum that know there's no traitor" or am I missing something?? cookie claimed specific info (i.e. didn't stop at "I'm Informed") so what makes you think it's "very likely a lie"?

P.S. If it's already answered later, I'll find it.

I thought at the time it felt like a bluff, but one that could have come from town trying to pull some fancy shit.

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What if it’s just 2 PRs and the traitor? No goons abound.

Very possible since there's multi tasking.

This is the thing you decide to jump in and comment on?

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Almost50 claiming here would be funny if he was BP neighbor traitor. But he seems town enough, so probably not.

TBH, I am very suspicous about the redtea lynching wagon happening so fast and quick. Definetly wasn't a pure wagon and probably some scum bandwagoning there. If redtea really is vig then there are ways to confirm that (2 nks maybe). The only ones I'm seeing that could benefit of redtea dying at this point is probably scum.

This was my thought at the time as well, before I got distracted because I thought redtea was acting scummy. It'd be an easy vote to follow. Didn't help that they were the same people who were piling on Osetr. I think Osetr was an easy target for scum because of his trolling, that allows them to hind behind voting out of policy rather than actually having any reason for thinking he was scum. That was what I was being so hard on fua about.

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VOTE: Three

Reread the ISO.

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Should note that regardless of what T3 says, Save The Dragons feels very underwhelming.

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Hey.

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Do you think I would deliberately antagonize the claimed vig as a scum PR?

I don't know you, so I can't predict your play style.

Nothing to do with anyone's playstyle. Think about what makes sense in this situation. If redtea's claim is true, I'd expect the mafia PR to be trying to get on their good side so as to not get shot by them.

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House
Almost50


HawaiianPizza
TheZenMan
Dwlee99


redtea
cool cookie
fua


T3
Save The Dragons
GeorgeBailey
Three


Don't really want to vote anyone outside the bottom group, TBH. I mostly think the attention on cool cookie is people trying to find a super smart theory of who's scum rather than looking at the people who aren't being town.

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T3 is almost certainly clear. Why do you group redtea with cookie?

If you think A50 is town then T3 should be town too.

What, because you assume they're in a neighborhood together and Almost50 trusts T3? That's absolutely not clearing.

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I forgot.
VOTE: jacket

Haha.

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Such as…?

T3 and Hawaiian. I don't understand why so many people are townreading Hawaiian and it feels like I'm missing something here.

I liked him early. Seemed to have a mind for actually figuring stuff out when most people weren't doing much. He's faded since then, can't tell if scum that ran out of gas or just bored with the site.

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T3 is almost certainly clear. Why do you group redtea with cookie?

If you think A50 is town then T3 should be town too.

What, because you assume they're in a neighborhood together and Almost50 trusts T3? That's absolutely not clearing.

Yes it is.

No, it's not.

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I don't think Dwlee is scum.

I'm struggling to believe Dwlee's scum read on me is real at this point. They think it's scummy that I town read them despite getting scum read by them, but if OMGUS scum read them back I'm certain that I wouldn't get town read for that. I don't get why you're so set on miseliminating me since it seems like you are going to scum read me no matter what I say or do.

Seems like you were were implying it by suggesting their scumread on you didn't seem "real".

[Jacket]

I pretty heavy tr jacket rn but I'd like to hear about that

I scumread Jacket.

I forgot.
VOTE: jacket

Haha.

This post reads to me like a bussed player that's not particularly happy with his buddy, sarcastically laughing at the vote.

Which is weird, because I didn't like his push on T3 in the first place, lol

You know, the only reason I had any hesitation on T3 at all was because I thought you might be masons with him, seeing how aggressively you attacked me for calling him scum, made it seem like you had a super strong townread you never actually verbalized. But I guess that's off the table now.

How do you want me to respond to that vote from T3? He had jack shit for a case, no one listens to him because his posts are white noise, and I don't care what he thinks. I probably gave him more of a response than was warranted.

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I think people are too intimidated by three's emotional appeals. I don't think it overrides the body of work. But maybe I just don't get his style. It happens.

I think deadline flashwagons are bad. At this point I'll move for the sake of consolidating.

I actually thought fua was getting more towny. If that's where people want to go, fine, but I'm not moving right now.

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Maybe I am tunneled on Three.

VOTE: T3

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Mass claim time tho fr

Kind of don't have the time for it.

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I doubt that we have 5 claimed PRs (I'm counting informed townie) on day 1 and all of them are town. That'd have to be every role in the setup and I don't think we hit that randomly.


I understand if people don't want to vote a claimed PR, though - some of these things should resolve mechanically from nightkills. I don't think we should out more roles, though.

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Who says we're not eliminating?

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I doubt that we have 5 claimed PRs (I'm counting informed townie) on day 1 and all of them are town. That'd have to be every role in the setup and I don't think we hit that randomly.


I understand if people don't want to vote a claimed PR, though - some of these things should resolve mechanically from nightkills. I don't think we should out more roles, though.

i'd count a neighbor as like, 1/2 a power role personally but I don't know if that's how games tend to be balanced at all
why not mass claim tomorrow though? Knowing claims will help make sense of visible night actions/night flips.

Who says we're not eliminating?

why should we

Not eliminating is wasting a chance to kill scum, unless you're confident you can take a shot or something. Otherwise we end up in the exact same place tomorrow minus one person.

Even if you think we're making a likely mis-lim, if there is a chance someone could be scum it's better to vote them if they aren't going to be cleared in future days. We only get a limited number of chances to kill scum in the game. Passing up even one is bad.


I think in general people are too obsessed with the idea of perfection and never getting it wrong, ever, that it leads to states like the one we have now where everyone's scared of wagoning someone. It's okay to be wrong on Day 1 if it removes someone who was a suspect. That's part of the game. Even an incorrect elimination lets you analyze how people approached and handled that player.

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Get off T3. He's nk bait.

Protective should be on him.

If there's no nk, he's town and scum was stopped.

If there's a different nk, his alignment may be in doubt, but hopefully we'll gain results.

No cc should happen, if any exists, until d2.

Sure. Who do you want to vote today?

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We're kind of short on time.

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For the record I think T3's role makes sense for scum. Especially if the neighbors are supposed to be valuable for town. But leaving him alive for a night is fine.

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Point being is it's better to stay on odds. What does a no lim accomplish here?

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redtea is. Doesn't make sense to me. I get that they feel like we're going in the wrong directions. But you have to take a shot somewhere.

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Hey. Had to leave for a bit.

I don't love the idea of a flashwagon on an unclaimed lurker but it's really no place to be picky.

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

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A lot of fua's posts match my own attitude toward the approaching deadline. Probably shouldn't call it towny but I want to.

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So, T3...result?

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I think it's notable that we had multiple claimed roles and an unclaimed VT died.

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VOTE: T3

I don't know what to tell people if you can't see this is a fakeclaim at this point.

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cookie knows I'm town and knows my result.
I won't elaborate further.

That's cool and all, but... how can cookie "know" you're town?

If you're softing that they have information from the mod, firm it up, because a "read" is not "knowledge".

cookie knows stuff that strongly implies my claim is true. And I know that cookie knows this stuff. And cookie should know my result.

I can confirm I have info which supports T3's claim. I do not have certainty T3 is town (although if I did, it's unlikely I'd want to say so and paint a big target on their back), but I absolutely would oppose elimming them today.

T3 - is your result evident publicly? or should i simply know, irrespective of that?

Okay.

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UNVOTE:

VOTE: Save The Dragons

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I don't really like zenman that much on a reread. Think almost50 is still town.

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On a50?

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Okay.

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wanna talk about you voting me?

Not really. I just think you could be mafia.

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i did shoot three
i think we were saying itd be a good idea if t3 targeted dwlee

so anyway, yeah either three is 1-shot bp, the traitor, or vanilla. if i shoot him again tonight that narrows it down to the last two, which would prevent him from going back on his vt claim.

this role kinda sucks ngl

FWIW, I'm okay with your idea of having the remaining unclaimed people claim at this point. Might narrow things down.

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Over half the game that's alive is outed. I think that if there's a hidden town PR in the unclaimed players they probably aren't going to last long anyway.

But if people disagree that's fine.

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I think as things were day 1 people seemed stuck and unsure what to do. If the setup is clearer I think there's less hesitation about who to vote.

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I should probably reread some people.

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I don't get why T3's hiding a result that is at least a semi-clear if that's the case. I thought there was some shenanigans with cookie learning of the result or some such, but nah.

I think the game having a traitor + 5 town PRs is very improbable.

I think if cookie were a scum mailman who knew of the traitor fae wouldn't have claimed day 1.

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...you were being that secretive over not getting a result?

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@House: How do you feel about DotW? I think a redtea shot there is fine

Who?

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Do you have actual reads other than not liking me for pushing you?

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poe

VOTE: T3

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Any shot is unlikely to go through if he's actually town. But it would confirm the existence of a roleblocker.

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Me thinks House is a Goon. Me thinks he thinks I'm their Traitor. STD is actually a Scum PR, and T3 is what he says he is, but is Scum aligned. Zen is the BP Traitor.

You think there's 4 mafia in the game?

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Do you have actual reads other than not liking me for pushing you?

Conveniently, he can't be confirmed or countered.

@T3: Why Jacket?

poe
pedit: yes

I don't think this is how a town PR getting run up acts. I asked if he had other reads and he just gave a "yes" in response.

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T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)

This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.

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I read dwlee and I don't townread them absent the osetr posts either.

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T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)

This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.

Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)

You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.

This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...

Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87504

This game had a 1-shot even night cop and a Night 2 Cop (effectively the same role). I think trying to outguess the mod is bad. (To be clear, I scumread T3 on play. Not just role spec stuff.)

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I don't think Almost50 ever is scum here.

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At any rate, if either is the traitor, I'm...not that concerned about it, actually.

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i think it might be better to hunt outside the hood

I agree with this post.

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i'm reading that we don't even have to exterminate the traitor to win?

uh is this true?

true, but with the neighbours likely being 1 or 2 scum - maybe not even the traitor itself - we should elim within the neighbour claims. just because they claimed BP, doesnt mean they can only be town or traitor. all we really know is, it's unlikely mechanically they are claiming truthfully.

You think they could be both scum CCing each other? How does that make any sense? The traitor would just claim to their partner.

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Let's work this out...

Claims so far are:

Gated vig
TA/NF
Bulletproof Neighbor
Neighbor
Informed Townie/Mailman

That's a lot of power against a bulletproof traitor and 2 group scum, ESPECIALLY if both group scum are also PR's which leaves all of the scum vulnerable to the gated vig (at some point, at any rate).

If at least one group scum is goon for vig immunity, the power balance gets even weirder.

There's definitely shenanigans going on in claimed roles.

my guess is the gated vig is actually the traitor, and 1 of the claimed neighbours is group-scum (and the other is maybe bullet-proof)

This is seriously scummy.

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cool cookie is shading the other PRs when it's extremely implausible that all 3 of them are scum. He's scum with T3. Can't wait until we end up chaining mis-elims off this.

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*fae's

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This whole thing where cool cookie is insisting we protect a dead-ass useless PR for multiple days makes no sense.

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The only proof we have of the existence of a bulletproof traitor is cool cookie's word. In a world where the bulletproof traitor is one of the neighbors with town, that puts them in an automatic CC on day 1. Does that make any sense as good setup design? Because it sounds terrible to me. Mafia would be put in a losing position from the start.

And if the neighbors were both mafia...wouldn't the traitor just claim to the other one?

Neither idea makes much sense to me.

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Almost50 was incredibly obvious town and that wagon was a disgrace. I don't even care that cool cookie got vigged.

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VOTE: no elimination

We're on evens. Let scum kill and mass claim tomorrow.


Be incredibly skeptical of any investigation claims, especially guilty ones.

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UNVOTE:

STD or House pick a person to start the popcorn

Jacket.

Vanilla Town. Was somewhat obvious given I wasn't concerned about getting vigged by redtea.

Pass to STD.

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Why do you think I'm scum, House?

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Nothing to do with the claiming, but okay.

I was actively protesting up until hammer by saying I didn't think the theories made sense. Granted, I was wrong about cookie, so it's not like I was much better. But cookie was actively lending supporting to killing multiple obvious town in almost50 an redtea who never made any sense as being part of a balanced setup. cookie may as well have been the 4th member of the mafia with the way fae was playing.

You deserve to be scolded for that vote if you're town. I'm not apologizing. If you want to let your emotions rule your decision-making, go ahead.

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Should have proofread that post, bunch of errors that make it look like shit.

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That doesn't even make sense. I still think T3's claim made sense for scum, and the way he's acted is scummy. Didn't like the way he jumped on my fua read. Felt like scum trying to a town's incorrect read.

I could be wrong, though.


This sounds less like any reason to think I'm scum and more punishing me for not playing the game the way you want.

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It's been clear since day 1 you've been attacking me mostly for not liking my style.

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Again, that means at most that I played the game badly, in your interpretation. It isn't any actual reason I'm scum.

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I could spam the thread up or caps lock rage or any number of things if I wanted to. That's not how I want to play the game, and if people want to do dumb shit anyway, that's on them.

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Throwing shade on town while avoiding being on a mislim & scolding town after the fact is pretty much textbook scum play, mon frere.

I mean, the town I was scumreading is dead. Not sure how that works.

If you are town who voted Almost50 you played badly, and if you chain that into voting me - because I disagreed with you and didn't play the game the way you want to, you are continuing to play badly. In my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm going to vote you in retaliation.

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What I predict is going to happen is: after claims, I will vote the person I think is most likely to be mafia. Hopefully I'll be correct, so I can say I did at least one thing right this game. You will vote me, because I upset you for criticizing the A50 vote. Town will lose, and then you will blame me for playing in a way you disagree with.

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Of course, if you're scum, hats off to you for playing this way. But I doubt it.

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I mean, the town I was scumreading is dead. Not sure how that works.

Not by elimination, so you're free of accountability for that loss.

But don't think for a second that I'm not aware that all the shade you threw on cookie didn't influence red tea, who most likely shot cookie instead of following through with confirming Three because he knew cookie was not a likely lim candidate (for good reason).

Your hands are not clean.

I'm not pretending I am, by any means. I acknowledge my culpability there. I got into conspiracy theory territory, because I didn't like the pushes cool cookie was making. I definitely lost sight of things. I felt the way cookie was playing was like a traitor who was drawing attention to themself and wasting town's energy while aggressively attacking town and pushing mis-eliminations. Felt like fae was trying to hijack the game. Which I guess was true, they just happened to be town anyway.

If you want to say I should have seen cool cookie was towny in spite of being aggressively wrong, feel free to do so. I probably should have considered that. I don't think I was fair to them. There's probably a takeaway there. I'll have to think about it.

I don't pretend to be perfect. I've made mistakes this game. Part of the game is that you're going to be wrong as town. Some of that is just how you figure stuff out. The Almost50 wagon just felt egregious to me.

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I don't know, maybe I should have just shut up about it, but I still have feelings about the game.

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Well, we don't know for sure that ZenMan is town. I'm uncertain. But I also don't reread during night phases. I haven't really thought too much about who is scum right now. I think that trying to outguess the setup based on "would there be 2 bulletproof townies or not" is a bad idea, though. I'd rather just read people on play. And, ultimately, if ZenMan IS a traitor, we don't need to vote him to win the game. That's why I didn't want to vote a BP claim yesterday.


The sad thing about this is that cool cookie actually messaged me, so cookie had more faith in me than I did in them. I might have been able to figure it out if we'd had more time. Regret spiraling into conspiracy theory territory.

[Jacket]

jacket is like 90% scum

Okay.

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I know who I'm snapvoting tomorrow.

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Everyone else claiming VT means there's a chance I was wrong on T3, but he's likely too butthurt to care.

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Don't really see a point in people laying all their cards on the table like some are doing.

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I hadn't considered Ascetic Jacket. However, he claimed he got a message from cookie. What was the message, Jacket?

Nothing really important. Stated it was cool cookie, they were a bit busy and confused, said that maybe we should do a mass claim tomorrow to clear the mech stuff up. Said we need some VCA and they don't know if they really trust anyone right now. Said that maybe scum kill them tonight which would be a decent result for town because at least it would confirm the existence of the traitor. Ends with "adios".

[Jacket]

I'm back and forth on Jacket, but I don't like that he's saying he'll snap vote tomorrow since if him and his target are both town then it's an instant loss for town. Which could just be a scum slip since this isn't the newbie queue and he should know better.

No shit? Of course I know that.

The way I see it, I can sit on my hands and wait for someone else to mess up while scum do their best to influence people to vote wrong, or I can take destiny into my own hands and force a 1v1. I think I know one mafia, that's all I need.

Way I see it, there's a few people who are openly broadcasting that they want to vote me. I don't think they're all mafia. That means scum know what the best kill is and will be angling to vote me, so I don't really expect to die. If I do not make the vote I want, scum will try to maneuver to get the vote they want. So the best thing I can do is to not let that happen.

You're not making sense. The game always ends if someone votes wrong tomorrow, doesn't matter if it's 1 minute into the day or an hour before deadline. Do you think anyone who makes the first vote in ELO is mafia, since the vote could lose the game? I don't understand your thinking.

[Jacket]

Because I could be wrong and my scumread dies anyway, and because even if that doesn't happen, someone dying in the night narrows things down. Because unless there's a clear, you always vote no elim on ELO+1. This isn't the newbie queue, so you should know that.

[Jacket]

The amount of scumreads being thrown around based on the idea of "This person does not confirm to my ideal procedures for playing Mafia, therefore they are scum" is absurd.

[Jacket]

What do you think?

[Jacket]

I clearly know how to play the game, even if my reads are mostly bad. I know how normal setups work. Don't see why you need to know anything else.

[Jacket]

If you're town and you know you could be wrong and still want to instantly vote in ELo, then I'm sorry, but that's poor town play and you're just contradicting yourself.

How do you propose that I, as a VT, become 100% confident in a read? I don't think it's a contradictory notion at all. I have a scumread I want to go after. I don't really trust anyone else to make the right call. That may be hypocritical, seeing as it's not like I've been great this game. But I like the idea more than waiting for someone else to make a move.

Of course, that doesn't mean I'm ever going to be completely confident. That's just not how the game works. Unless you're a PR with mechanical info there's always going to be uncertainty.

No one's saying you have to play in a certain ideal way. But do you really think the things you're saying don't read as scummy? Even a little bit?

No, because the entire rationale you have given above is "If you do this thing, it is bad play if you are town. No town could ever think differently than I do, so you are scummy."

Which ignores the idea that I clearly don't view the game in the same weird terms you do, given that I can't even make sense of what you're demanding of me.

Just lay out what you think the model little townie is supposed to do, because clearly I don't understand how to play the game, at least in your eyes.

[Jacket]

What do you think?

I think you should answer my question.

It's not like I'm going to ask your main if you say yes.

Too subtle for you?

Yeah, this isn't my first account. Obviously.

[Jacket]

You're pretty emotional about this, huh.

Didn't even bother to actually answer me.

[Jacket]

So touchy, so reactive. This game.

I already explained that if I sit around waiting I believe scum are going to try to manipulate people into voting me. Or scum will try to manipulate me into voting who they want. It's sit back and lose the game, or try to take initiative myself.

There's no "bar for cooperation" because if you don't follow the 37 unwritten rules someone has about the game, you're lock scum. Even though none of it, you know, has anything to do with someone is mafia or not. I'm tired of it. Anyone who was actually reasonable is dead. You've made the prospect of cooperating with you very unappealing, Three.

I'm just playing for the moral victory of having my vote be right. You want to play punitively, suit yourself. But you're not going to catch scum that way.

[Jacket]

Not emotional, annoyed. If I was emotional I would've voted you. But nice gaslighting, definitely a pro town post.

What did I not answer?

I would say "annoyed" is an emotion. I think accusing someone of "gaslighting" you and being anti-town for calling you emotional is a pretty emotional move.

I haven't even said what my read on you is or anything.

I asked: How am I supposed to be 100% confident in a read I vote on in ELO? You implied that voting when there's a possibility you could be wrong is "poor town play". So I took it as belief that the only time someone should vote is if they're completely confident.

I also asked you to "lay out what you think the model little townie is supposed to do". I really want to know, because it's clear you're not approaching the game the way I am and are becoming extremely agitated by a disagreement over procedure.

[Jacket]

It's not even like I'm saying having emotions are bad. I was obviously emotional about the A50 elimination, because I disagreed with it. The difference is - I know there is at least one town player alive who was wrong on that vote. I'm angry at them for voting him.

The difference is, I'm not coming out here looking to inflict punishment on them in retribution for making that vote. Because it doesn't have anything to do with who is mafia or not. Truthfully, I regret even bitching about it in the first place.

Anyway, maybe consider that before you go looking to play mafia sheriff,arresting all the people who are playing town wrong.

[Jacket]

Why would you not wait for everyone to check in? Why would you not wait for people to claim invest results? Why would you not bother collaborating with town reads? Especially when you're not 100% confident with your read?

Why do I need to wait for other people to check in? My concern is that scum are going to try to take control of the narrative.

I'm honestly unlikely to trust any investigative result that comes out on ELO, given how things have gone.

The answer is that I still trust my own reads more than I trust anyone else's. Call it selfish if you want. But don't fool yourself into thinking it's scummy.

[Jacket]

This is going nowhere.

I'm over it.

VOTE: no lim

I agree but I don't want Three to accuse me of being scum for dodging questions or whatever.

[Jacket]

Repeatedly telling someone they're being emotional when they're telling you that they're not is the most stereotypical form of gaslighting. I'm not here to convince you that you're doing what you know you're doing.

You very clearly becoming agitated over this, and it's making you difficult to respond to.


The stuff you're saying is all wrapped up in personal feelings and not liking me. You're not bridging the gap between "This person acts in a way that displeases me" and "This person is taking actions that work toward a mafia win condition". I've tried to criticize this while explaining my point of view. But any disagreement with you over how to play is met with outright hostility and accusations of me being scummy.

[Jacket]

This is going nowhere.

I'm over it.

VOTE: no lim

I agree but I don't want Three to accuse me of being scum for dodging questions or whatever.

You sound emotional.

Hmm, do I? What emotion was I displaying there?

[Jacket]

Haha, okay. Sure, whatever you say.

[Jacket]

VOTE: no elimination

[Jacket]

scum: dwlee/STD

not sure: Hawaiian/ZenMan

House is town, T3 is probably town.

[Jacket]

Jacket, convince me you're town
I'm like
going to vote you
but convince me you're town

your reads don't feel believable
that's the main part of my scumread.

If I was scum I'd probably just be pushing back on you here, because I doubt you're ever going to turn around on me. I get it. You're upset I pushed on you this game. That doesn't mean I'm scum. Was just looking in the wrong direction all game. It happens. Been trying to find scum. Wrote off Osetr slot for the trolling and have the feeling now I was wrong. Think scum have mostly been in the background being ignored.

What doesn't "feel believable"?

[Jacket]

Okay? So was cookie, considering they were trying to paint the vig claim as scum. I thought that was super implausible. In my view, cookie was pushing on obvious townies.

I was wrong, sure. It happens. I was tunneled on you, too.

[Jacket]

jacket is like 90% scum

Okay.

I know who I'm snapvoting tomorrow.

yikes

You seem to have taken this as implying I was going to vote you. But that's not the case, I changed my mind on you yesterday, in part because everyone else claimed VT.

[Jacket]

But also, dwlee's preflip association of me and whoever was scummy, and they seem to be playing around you in a way that knows you're town.

Anyway, I felt that day 1, when I was tunneling fua, you had followed my push there in a way that was scummy and opportunistic. You had taken a post that was pretty NAI and went "wow this is scum" or something to that effect. I felt like you were just riding the momentum from other people on their pushes. That was why I thought you were scum, and I assume someone who claims an investigative role when run up day 1 is usually scum. I was probably wrong. It happens.

If you're town, sorry for tunneling you for two game days. I don't think that's a

good

reason to vote me, but I'm biased.

[Jacket]

Was yesterday really enough to get me to go from scum to town for you?

[Jacket]

This is awkward.


I still haven't reread anyone yet.

[Jacket]

So I am thinking after a quick skim if someone could explain to me why Three and Jacket were fighting that’s be awesome.

The kill from MELO to elo is usually very indicative so I kinda want to know more about three.

It’s 80 pages and a slow Chog so some help would be awesome

I said I'd snapvote today and Three got pissed off at me because apparently that's a scumclaim to him for some reason. Obviously, I have not actually voted.

I didn't scumread him but kept arguing because I thought us fighting might mean he wouldn't get killed.

[Jacket]

Math I don't think I've EVER seen that happen

Damn then you haven’t seen a properly played elo.
We get two for one with fake voting.

By making the scummiest player vote first then either A> scum votes first and we get a likely town out of it or B> town votes first which makes us not lose the game by hammering the wrong player.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82048&hilit=Fake+Vote

Here’s an example bji had to vote first iirc it’s been a year.

Fake vote strat in elo is good.

Even if someone does a play you disagree with/is anti-town, it doesn't make them scum, though. But this is a pointless argument because I lost my will and didn't vote. I'm fine with doing things your way, though.

[Jacket]

Can everyone do me a solid and order a reads list town to scum? (Or scum to town) no reasons this will help a lot

I haven't reread still.

T3
House/Mathblade
HawaiianPizza
Dwlee
Zenman
STD



I suspected dwlee coming into the phase. I'm still wary. I disliked them preflip teaming me with Pizza off House suspecting me a lot. But not fully sure they play things the way they have as scum. Like I said, need to reread, haven't had the time.

[Jacket]

I haven’t said anyone is scum though. The fake vote thing is pretty common in elo. You always want scum to vote first if you can. It’s very sus in elo to just drop a vote for that reason. It robs us of fake voting. Lock scum? No. Suspicious? Yes.

I've seen people do it elsewhere but have never had it played that way myself.

[Jacket]

K. I still think STD is mafia. I don't find T3's meta argument convincing.

[Jacket]

TBH, I am very suspicous about the redtea lynching wagon happening so fast and quick. Definetly wasn't a pure wagon and probably some scum bandwagoning there. If redtea really is vig then there are ways to confirm that (2 nks maybe). The only ones I'm seeing that could benefit of redtea dying at this point is probably scum.

[Jacket]

I'm going to claim. I'm an Informed Townie. I know there is a Bulletproof Mafia Traitor in the game. I think the quotes below are Redtea signalling to the rest of the mafia that they are said traitor, partly given it was a really weird out-on-a-limb connection to make in the context of the discussion to that point, and partly because there are very few reasons to make such an effort to hint that you are mafia-aligned, other than being the mafia traitor.

(Translator's Note: gay means mafia-aligned)

im gay

VOTE: redtea

I could be wrong, but there's nothing really lost by me claiming anyway as that's my only power.

I'm going to claim. I'm an Informed Townie. I know there is a Bulletproof Mafia Traitor in the game. I think the quotes below are Redtea signalling to the rest of the mafia that they are said traitor, partly given it was a really weird out-on-a-limb connection to make in the context of the discussion to that point, and partly because there are very few reasons to make such an effort to hint that you are mafia-aligned, other than being the mafia traitor.

(Translator's Note: gay means mafia-aligned)

im gay

VOTE: redtea

I could be wrong, but there's nothing really lost by me claiming anyway as that's my only power.

I... can actually see this as a thing.

If you squint, you can read between the lines to see "Translator's Note" as "Traitor's Note".

VOTE: redtea

I'm going to claim. I'm an Informed Townie. I know there is a Bulletproof Mafia Traitor in the game. I think the quotes below are Redtea signalling to the rest of the mafia that they are said traitor, partly given it was a really weird out-on-a-limb connection to make in the context of the discussion to that point, and partly because there are very few reasons to make such an effort to hint that you are mafia-aligned, other than being the mafia traitor.

(Translator's Note: gay means mafia-aligned)

im gay

VOTE: redtea

I could be wrong, but there's nothing really lost by me claiming anyway as that's my only power.

AND A KO IN MIDAIR
VOTE: redtea

VOTE: redtea

That's E-2.

VOTE: redtea

E-1.

[Jacket]

I don't think I actually want to read more, that's an incredibly scummy post from ZenMan based on flips/reads.

[Jacket]

Fine with the bottom 2. Probably need to put more time on reading Pizza/dwlee. Not tonight though.

[Jacket]

I think the general consensus is zen/T3 yeah? I will focus on them tonight.

T3 is largely townread now. He claimed odd night traffic analyst/even night neighbor finder, which makes sense with the setup, and without him town is underpowered.

I also think that if ZenMan is mafia, that post I quoted is spewing T3 as town.

[Jacket]

Sorry misread I have been doing a shit ton of overtime recently.

What makes you say town is underpowered? I have seen some games with 3 goons for scum before.

The only actual useful PR would be a complex vig, then there's just...a mailman that knows about the traitor, and a bulletproof neighbor. That's not enough roles that do things.

[Jacket]

I really wish there was a list of claims somewhere.

You know all the relevant ones.

Zenman - Bulletproof neighbor
T3 - Odd Night Traffic Analyst/Even Night Neighbor Finder
Everyone else - VT

[Jacket]

T3 claims roleblocked on both the odd nights.

[Jacket]

I really wish there was a list of claims somewhere.

You know all the relevant ones.

Zenman - Bulletproof neighbor
T3 - Odd Night Traffic Analyst/Even Night Neighbor Finder
Everyone else - VT

Hmm T3 claimed blocked both nights.

When did T3 claim?

He got run up and forced to claim day 1 because I was tunneling him (I didn't like the way he pushed fua).

[Jacket]

I think Zen is just scum here. The more I look over things the more it looks like Zen is pushing T3 for being mechanically bad vs a scumread. I don’t think if T3 is scum that he would have done that.

I also don’t like how when I asked who the top scumread was he dropped a single mention of StD then went back to picking on T3

*Fake vote T3*

Unofficial fake vote count
Zen (1) — Math

It takes 3 to hammer to force them to drop a vote in 24 hours.

Can I just say I'm fake voting? I don't know how you're running this. I've been at Zen scum since I spent about 2 minutes rereading yesterday.

[Jacket]

what a beautiful morning

insert fake vote on zen

now what if...
hmmm.

dwlee, what's your read on jacket?

Well I think t3 and Mathblade are just town. That leaves room for only one town in the rest of y'all. Jacket and Zen doesn't seem SvS and neither does your push on Zen, which by associatives makes me think that zen just has to be town. Koba would kill me for this but I think mech says zen is town here as well. Math, t3, what convinced y'all to fake vote zen? Do you think he is traitor or group scum?

So, if you think T3 and mathblade are town, Zen shaded an all-town wagon saying it "has" to contain scum. Why would that not be suspect?

[Jacket]

Also, why would you assume that because Zen is being pushed on, it's impossible for bussing to be taking place? Mafia have to be willing to vote their partners to have a realistic solve. That's so weird.

[Jacket]

Why do both of us seem "not SvS"?

[Jacket]

I think I FOSed zen once, prior to today, and was also railing against the idea he was scum via mechanics for a bit.

[Jacket]

I think everyone here is going about things the wrong way. My goal here is to nab a scum. Whether traitor or group scum I don’t care. I just fake voted the person most likely to be scum to me. When the timer ends (plus a little bit of time for time zones to be generous), if Zen hasn’t voted it’s open season so I am going to assume Zen votes.

If Zen is scum, Zen almost certainly votes a town unless scum plan a bus. That vote can be analyzed.
If Zen is town who votes a town then game is over scum have completely fooled everyone and gg.
If Zen is town who votes scum we have a game folks and we can repeat the process.

So I think a lot of trying to have an exact solve is theater right now. Zen should be here trying to figure out where his vote goes if he is town.

Aka everyone please stop trying to be heroes and solve the damn game. Just find a scum, one, and work from there.

I mean, I'm with you on Zen. Just working through who's most likely from my POV.

[Jacket]

I think I FOSed zen once, prior to today, and was also railing against the idea he was scum via mechanics for a bit.

What do you mean by the last part

I was pretty against the assumption that claiming the same role as Almost50 meant one had to be mafia.


I just think he's scum based on his posts.

[Jacket]

HawaiianPizza has been against Zen for a while, so at least that's consistent. But if Zen is traitor, I don't know that pushes on him are clearing.

[Jacket]

I already said this before but prob would vote std. I also scumread T3 and lately also thinking Hawaiian pizza might be scum. He has been coasting by for so long and getting away with not contributing at all and just popping in and out jumping on whatever bandwagon.

You're supposed to be placing a vote now, according to Math.

[Jacket]

I agree that Save The Dragons is probably scum.

[Jacket]

Fake vote Hawaiian, sure.

[Jacket]

Maybe presumptive, but feel like ZenMan is trying to get voted.

[Jacket]

Maybe but if so we get a scum so yay?

Yeah.

[Jacket]

Realistically, from your POV, if you and STD are t/t, then any team that includes 2 of Math/T3/me could have hammered and ended the game.

[Jacket]

Posting to confirm, or something.

[Jacket]

Well played. Regret writing off the Osetr slot so early and never re-assessing there. But I don't think this game was ever winnable for town. Even if I hadn't thrown out my one good read.