Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[nureins]

@Goat: You and I must have different definitions of buddying. When I use that term, I mean behavior that could point to a scum-buddy relationship after the guilty party card-flips scum. Nuriens' main buddy targets have been Ecto, Cass, and myself. I think what you quoted was sarcasm and comradere and maybe, like you said, kissing up to kuribo a little, but I don't think it was buddying.

FALSE.

I said in my post.

1. KURIBO'S last post in day 1 showed that Kuribo thought/panicked at the last moment due to the possibility of Darox being scum. (Later, Kuribo argued against me, now I am not sure if this was the meaning of his post).

2. Therefore, I was ironically criticizing KURIBO. Comradere ???? I was using hard words against him. Kissing up ??? I was using hard words against him. And I do mantain my hard words.

And Kuribo reacted evidently as so. He rebated/tried to rebate my first point. He interpreted correctly my hard words on him and just came back with no reasoning, as always...

so FALSE.

Please, tell to me WHICH OF MY WORDS WERE POSITIVE FOR KURIBO and therefore, where I was buddying/comrade/kissing up him.

[nureins]

This is the quote you're talking about, addressed to Darox:

I guess that means I'll be the lynch for tomorrow?

Do you think I'm on the right track with nureins?

Where in the smelly hell do you get the idea that I was worried about him coming up scum?

In the first sentence. Darox made a shit post "YOU VOTE ME BECAUSE IM A MEAN PERSON..."
And you answered back like this. I interpreted you were worried about him becoming up scum. I pointed it out to you with hard words about your egocentrism and self-righteous style. If you read my previous post, Im declaring that after you discussed a little bit, I am not so sure about the reason for which you wrote like that. You said at some moment it was because darox was aggressive, but this is incorrect. But I cannot see why you used. However, I dont perceive in your words that you are backtracking, so Im not sure about the meaning of this sentence.

Now, the point of Goat/ythill was about me buddying you in this post. Which is absurd, as I pointed out to your "worrying on Darox being scum" and criticized you on your style with a hard ironic style. And we discussed all that much before Ythill and Goat started to say that i was buddying you, so it is pretty clear and ythill argument is clearly false.

[nureins]

This is more of your "If I disprove one part of a case, I must clearly not be scum," behavior.

I simply point out which arguments by others are debatable, which are correct, and which are false. This is the task of a good townie, and Im not going to stop due to your insistance...

[nureins]

Notice the change in how nuriens addresses or refers to Ythill while Ythill is attacking him compared to after Ythill has moved on to other targets.
Regarding Kuribo, I'm confused about the relevance of any perceived doubt Kuribo had about Darox/Pacman. Why does this matter?

This matters a lot.
I was making fun of him because I thought he had doubts at the last moment about darox. Darox had convinced 8 of us of his scumness, and I thought he had doubts when Darox sent his last post.

The only time I talk of Ythill and Me in a connected way is about Sirdan. I started some push on Sirdan that Ythill continued, and even pushed up in level. Something that clearly I shared and fed, and viceversa. Other players also participated, but in my opinion, quite far away from both of us. The Sirdan affair includes also another Ythill/me together. The fact that Sirdan forgot completely our first fight in which Ythill said to me words close in level to the ones in Sirdan. I pointed out this fact repeatedly (something about which Sirdan has not yet answered), and since I repeated myself some times, at some moments with more seriousity, at others with more little goebels funny way.

Both of them are highly intuitive and natural. I cannot see why this can be suspicious of anything. But you are free to explore it and come with extra questions.

About my tone with Ythill, it is probably something like respect. The first time we debated, I found his arguments quite poor and manipulative. With time, I perceived that it was not the second. About the first, I have serious doubts, as I have reviewed my talk with him and yet find my points mostly correct. But during Sirdan debate, I mainly found him convincing (at some moments a bit tunnelvisioned and excessive, but mostly correct). And given the people with whom he was battling (kuribo, darox especially), he was someone to be respected. Now I have 4 votes on me. Kuribo, Jahudo, Ythill and Darox. I find the first and the fourth ridiculous in his reasonings. I find the second scummy. I find Ythill as reason-based townie.

Therefore, I talk with him at a serious level. I do not consider this counterintuitive. And by the way, my responses to you would be similar as I consider you at a similar level (with the main difference that Ythill is paying much more attention to the game in my opinion). And I also consider you likely town. Is that bad ? I was very clear to Kuribo. I clarify/comment/agree/disagree with people, and dedicate time to those that deserve time.

[nureins]

The Ythill part of my post is also a response to

After Ythill has moved on, you see nuriens in multiple occasions say stuff along the lines of "what me and Ythill are saying" etc.

[nureins]

Do you mean manipulative of your own words, or something else specifically? Also do you mean poor as in incorrect or lacking substance/evidence/...?

Do you want me to discuss Goebels again? I do not mind really, but doubt you have audience...you want to make me repeat, dont you ? YOU KNOW MY WEAK POINTS AND YOU WANT TO EXHACERBATE THEM...such a smart scum hehe

In any case, I said FOUND. I do not find them anymore like that. Neither manipulative nor quite poor. About the richness I have serious doubts, I do not know how to value them, because mostly I think I am correct. This does not mean Ythill is a nonsense person, as Kuribo or Darox, or a mafia guy jumping onto me, as you...

And this:

Ecto, allow me this at the same time I swallow my pride by accepting your superiority

Sounds like this:

...we, the retarded open you the doors of our house.

Brilliant trick. MANIPULATIVE.

- Ecto was more or less correct in his point. I used this language with him. I explained several times myself. I also give him particularly more examples of this in my meta once my first game ever finished.

- I consider Kuribo a shit player and I was ironic. If you really prefer me to use improper language in the forum in order not to be manipulated I can. Do you want me ? I know you would be delighted if I start to insult him, as confusion would only finish with me lynched and you not participating a lot. No no no, my friend. I will continue my way with him.

flimsy views he's held that can sway when a town is no longer an ally.

oh really ? Can you give examples ?
More importantly, can you give examples in which I havent re-read profusely the thread and construct a serious case against ?
OTHERWISE, ANOTHER LIE. If you want to fight me, prepare better your LIES.

Posts the “which is a joke?” quiz (#58) to his declared townies, myself, and the lead suspect. The examples all shed suspicion on two opposed players. The post leaves a very obvious exit from any attempt to discredit it (scum).

I already answered that. I took position in this post. Go and read it.

[nureins]

WHO IS PLEASING YTHILL?

[nureins]

I consider Kuribo a shit player...

The ad hom is uncalled for and it's incorrect.

The ad hom was correct as none Goat or you seemed to understand the irony in my post to Kuribo. You wanted a clear word, here it was. In connection to ambivalence or buddying, I think my irony was pretty clear, and no ambivalence or buddying could be involved in this post.

Your argument on him guessing correctly is ridiculous. 2 observations, 1 correct guess (Pacman), 1 incorrect guess (me). Hardly the study is statistically serious. This seems to me an argument you can use against a child, do not treat me as if I am dumb. I am not. Save these arguments to attack someone else later. You have to find lot of scum yet.

Do you realize how much you have minimized the case on nuriens? He was implicated both ways by our scum confirmation. He was vague and ambivalent early D1, which was called a scumtell, then he changed his play.

I do not remember any serious reference about my ambivalence that I took into consideration. I did not. May you explain this to me ?
With respect to my noobiness, I already pointed out this is not so relevant. In any case, to share all the information, I already said that I have played only one complete (serious) mafia game in my life.

By the way, that game was 4 days long. I voted essentially 3 persons. Two of them were scum. Here, my first day vote was essentially on sirdan, not yet revealed townie or scum. So I have put my best vote for 3 persons, two of them revealed scum, one of them townie. If you again suggest your statistical game as an argument, I will claim that 2/3 is larger than 1/2 and suggest you to follow my views and vote for Jahudo.

Nuriens is the play today. Sim's style is empty, but his treatment of pacman and the wagoneers was 100% townie.

I found Simenon quite suspicious in day 1. However, having seen the result of day 1, my suspicions have not raised up significantly (if any, they have been relaxed a bit). I do not think Sim is the play today. Therefore:

a) I am buddying to Ythill by pointing out this (ythill or goat's logic)
b) Nureins is the play today (Kuribo's logic)
c) I share my opinions and information with people (nureins' logic)

[nureins]

Do you want me to discuss Goebels again?

I understand the case as you presented it with regards to Ythill's tactics, but my own interpretation is that you tried to make up and embellish scum tells on his style of play that can be legitimate as town, and of course you now think Ythill's town.

[/quote]

Can you come up with quotes and examples of a brilliant theory invented by you ?

Brilliant trick. MANIPULATIVE.

It was your own words.
[/quote]

My own words were a fun comment to a player and a ironic harsh word to the other. And you used them to suggest the second was buddying. Manipulative.

can you give examples in which I havent re-read profusely the thread and construct a serious case against ?

Yes, the examples I brought up have already been analyzed and discussed. [/quote]

You have not mentioned any person about which I had "flimsy views" that I can sway when a town is no longer an ally. I asked you for examples. The only one is YOU. And I have built a case based on reasoning. Give the examples or admit your mistake.

Then you buy the argument of Ythill about how one correct guess of a player is significant to any extent is just more of the same. You and Pac played the tennis game and you asked all the time for Ythill being the referee. Pacman was kinda McEnroe, and you were Pete Sampras the well-behaved guy. And you yet follow this path.

[nureins]

WOW.
How could not I see it ?
In post 1120'5, nureins twisted the last statement of Kuribo trying to incriminate him with a quicklynch desire without discussion !!
How cannot you vote nureins ?

After reading Mini 617 because Mirth pointed it out to me in a newbie game we are playing, I have seen the truth. Kuribo is able to find all the scum, even himself when he is townie hahaha

---

Now, for serious stuff. If you are accusing me of twisting arguments, please come with real cases. Otherwise, from post 1121, I can only read:

- That you are worried of people accusing you of quicklynches.
- That you (voluntarily or not) put the seed on people's mind that I twist arguments of other people. And you do it without arguments and building up an hypothetical situation that has not occurred. I havent commented post 1120.

I also know how to seed the way you did. I did it in the first part of this post. I suggested implicitly that your arguments are ridiculous, as it is your mafiascum play history. However, as it is not a serious argument because it is just based in a poor elucubration, Ill stop this right now. Mini 617 is not something serious, but I really laughed a lot with kuribo there.

[nureins]

In post 1120'5, nureins twisted the last statement of Kuribo trying to incriminate him with a quicklynch desire without discussion!!
How cannot you vote nureins?

Why aren't you voting for him?

Because post 1120'5 only existed in Kuribo's mind. As many other things.

[nureins]

Manipulating jokes is a scumtell ?

No, I pointed out a different thing. Your obsession with mafia is so ridiculous that you accused yourself in Mini 617 of being mafia when you were a townie.

[nureins]

sirdan, why do you accuse Ythill of avoiding arguments when nureins does the exact same in a roundabout and verbose way?

Point out where i avoided to answer a clear question.
If you have more doubts, formulate a clear question.

[nureins]

Ask

[nureins]

1. With respect to "simulposting" and avoiding the answer to ythill.

First I cannot see why the simulposting issue is relevant at all. I cannot remember that day/night, so hardly I can tell you what I was doing. In any case, I answered to Ythill, so your point has no sense.

Look

"Ectomancer seems to believe Ythill is more townie than TPT. Can I assume that you too ? Indeed, I had serious doubts before the information he gave on his experience.
Also, having been so careful as to choose a different game to play with, etc etc, having thought so much about his participation in this forum, etc etc, is it credible he is not aware what an OMGUS is ? This is my second game ever (in any forum, and even in my complete life, i havent played before !) and I KNOW what an OMGUS is from the first game (and even having some curiosity on the wiki i had found it before my first game)..."

SO CLEARLY, I WAS SAYING:

a) I had no clear view on who among ythill-tpt was more suspicious, if any. Remember the 1-4 points I raised for debate ? probably you dont, you forget things

b) Now tpt's scumtells made me to think on him as more suspicious that ythill.

Also, I expressed openly and largely my suspicions on Simenon and Tpt and after, I unvoted (ythill) and fossed simenon and tpt.

unvote
FOS: simenon
FOS: tpt

If this is not an answer for you, nothing can be. LIE.

2. FOSSING TPT AND DEFENDING HIM.

Again false. I raised my suspicions with his attitude. Some people voting him unvoted, as you can read in my words of this post. I said also that his autovote was dangerous and suspicious. You have read above. But in the following quote you can read what I meant on a quick lynch by emotional players. Not that I did not want him to be pressured...not that i was defending him. LIE.

"My advice is for you to stop that arrogance, TPT. This is not gonna help you. Some people like Ectomancer have unvoted you (I would have unvoted you coz I would have feared up a quick lynch by couple of emotional people). This doesnt mean the unvoters stopped believing you are scum. Indeed, I truly believe lot of people (including me) have scummy impressions on you. If you are town and just behaving arrogant, think of it... "

3. OMGUS. Ridiculous. You read the posts isolated and without interest. We were discussing on OMGUS with TPT, as he supposedly didnt know what an OMGUS vote was. I said that being my second game, I perfectly knew what an OMGUS vote was. So I added the "OMGUS vote" sarcastic comment to my post. My vote to Ythill was defended and justified on the speed of ythill jumping over me with bad arguments (and the quick votes he had done when I initially interpreted that he was reluctant to cast quick votes, from his initial comment).

Please come with more. I am enjoying your scumhunting.

Have you all noticed how kuribo has played this game ?? He wrote a pbpa the first day. And he has not matured from that. Indeed, he has not done anything else. And he still thinks I was defending TPT...go for wikipedia and read about confirmation bias, it may help you before you grow old in the chair...

Another thing that find quite surprising is that this town has become a bit lazy lately. Again. And Nureins is the center of the universe. Well, not difficult to imagine. I wrote 214 posts. You can find connections to everyone. You can find minor details for sure.

Ill claim. Im a newbie player. Buh. Im tired of your arguments. Ill use my newbie card not to proceed with stupidities. So I claim, im newbie, i dont know what im doing, blablablabla (SARCASM)

[nureins]

Good game all. Unfortunately, the bunch of mafia did horribly and gave you all clues. We have just the poor excuse of our inexperience...

Kuribo came up with dozens of adequate observations. So congratulations for a wonderful performance. You deserve the MVP and this is not sarcastic.

The fact that you did not develop and ellaborate your comments as much as, for instance Ythill, was my only exit not to be lynched immediately after your entrance...I guess this is obvious and there is no need to add it here. But just in case, I wanted to do it. I was forced to write the words "shit player" when my sarcastic comments on you were not understood. I was framing you as a non-reflective player guided only by his emotions and biases...and I know this is a theater and I can use as mafia some strategies, but I do consider some limits cannot be surpassed...irony is the best way always to say things mantaining good humour if possible...so again, congratulations for your good observations...

Thank you all.

[nureins]

Scum...why did pacman submit the kill and not nureins?

My suggestions for Kill-RB-Watch were SIMENON-SIRDAN-PACMAN or SIMENON-ECTOMANCER-PACMAN. The idea that I should remain as inactive godfather defeated me. I was totally unable to discuss it due to my inexperience. And indeed, I didnt even consider worthwile to discuss it because my view was just a non-articulated thought.

1. Ha. "Goebbels."

2. I thought nuriens was the best playing scum and it's a shame he lost after confusing the town that many times.

1. Kinda...

2. I do not agree. Habitang played horribly, becoming emotional with no need. I was both buddy with players and unclear with habitang. If I would have been a townie, Ive had destroyed habit, so I can perfectly see I played poorly. Nhat was doing good up to the end of day 1. He should have lynched habit with no compassion, as he was suspicious of him. At this moment I perceived the game was not only lost but probably short...