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[Retti]

VOTE: egix

For beating me to the first post.

[Retti]

I like Andante Andre and Retti so far.

I like me too, but I have a hard time believing you had Real Feelings from my singular drive-by RVS post.

I bet we have a mailman this game who is the most fun person here.... so far all yall are boring

What should we be talking about instead? Half the people in this game haven't even checked in yet.

Well I mean, everyone showing up and randomly voting gets us nowhere, everyone has essentially the exact same message, like, idk, I hate RVS in general, but still, having the entire table go "haha (vote X)" yeah no thanks

This can be town antsiness to actually get the game started. Scum probably not going to make that much noise about being bored.

[Retti]

+1
Andante comes across as very genuine and inquisitive. Her questioning of Natalya feels like a Town who wants to get the game forward, which is congruent with her earlier statements.
Natalya... idk? It's hard to separate the fluff from readable content. The one thing that stuck out to me was 56. From what I've seen there's a general sentiment from players who have played with me before that I'm hard to read. From this, Natalya is lean town. It's also possible that Natalya was reaction testing Scorpious, in which case she's even more towny.
Retti is a (possible) scumread. His point about Natalya in 61 is eerily similar to reasoning I've used as scum before to justifly shade on someone immediately after RVS. In FIA WRC, another player hyped up a tone scumread on a newbie. Scum me immediately shaded that player and got an early wagon on them. The reason I say possibly, is because Retti isn't me, and this might be a legitimate tell town him uses.
Scorpious is nullscum. His reaction to Natalya's 'scumread' was bad but I want to excuse it as an older player coming back to the site and feeling out-of-place with the site meta.

Since when do you explain yourself this much?

[Retti]

Actually, calling it now: those reads are fake, fake, fake. town!T3 just posts blunt, underexplained thought fragments while scum!T3 is way more concerned with projecting towniness and looking like he has explanations for all his reads. The reads on Natalya and Scorp are both blatant hedges as well. It's a post that's trying to look solvey but doesn't actually commit to most of its reads.

VOTE: T3

[Retti]

I also agree with T3’s sentiments on Scorpious for now. The reaction to a scumread based on one post seems a little too defensive, but it’s not enough for me to fully scumread them at the moment.

Noting this as a blatant hedge as well, echoing T3 while keeping their vote on him.

[Retti]

I mean, RVS, what sense does it make to vote someone and leave. isn't RVS about pressuring random people? getting some sort of random wagon going? cause 7 people with 1 vote on them is just dumb

It's just there to get conversation started. It's not like there's rules for it. I think you probably just have unrealistic expectations for how active other people are going to be. Calm down, let people work into the game on their own time rather than getting worked up over nothing.

[Retti]

Scorpious seems Fine. Getting grumpy over getting scumread for an RVS post is an understandable reaction, if anything, don't get why people are saying it's bad. It's like how anyone responding to being pushed gets called "defensive", because they're...defending themselves. Means nothing.

[Retti]

Good morning. What an interesting start to a game. Please to be here for it.

Andante is the obvious elephant in the room, but I'm not overly concerned at this point. I know people can get really talky when they're scum but eh I'm mostly seeing enthusiasm. The response to #33 wasn't stellar, but also doesn't give me enough red flags.

If I was going to pick a direction to go now, it'd be VOTE: Natalya.

Eh, I'll bite: Why Natalya?

[Retti]

Hi, do you have thoughts on his posts since that opener? Good, bad, anything at all?

[Retti]

Yeah, I’m not wasting anymore time “defending” myself. How such a weak push gains so much momentum is beyond me. As far as being “defensive”. That’s being manufactured, and people are buying it.I asked some obvious questions that anyone would ask. Good thing is, This train is giving me some information, though.

...information, such as?

[Retti]

I think Natalya probably has ~sincere conviction~ or whatever in her Scorp read, I just don't really think I see it, the questions he asked her are just asking her to explain her reads, which isn't exactly screaming "scum" to me. His response is weird but I would agree with Oman's assessment at the end of 115 that the votes on Scorp after Natalya look opportunistic in nature, which has me not wanting to go in that direction.

[Retti]

wow... Oman town, I don't see scum putting in that much effort this early

What about the effort did you like, exactly?

[Retti]

Welcome back, yeah I played a game on another site and was thinking : “I wonder if MS is still a thing”

TURNS OUT IT IS! I heard that Patrick Gower won the Nisei world champs and I was like "huh, we used to play mafia together"

Welcome back, BTW - always like playing with older users because it reminds me of when I was starting out (this is an alt, I was originally active around 2011 or so). I feel like the meta has shifted a lot since then, hopefully it's not too big an adjustment.

[Retti]

I haven't seen anything that makes me not suspect T3. It is possible to have more than one scumread.

[Retti]

Ok who do you scumread on the Scorp wagon?

Shrug? None of them are exactly shining beacons of towniness. (If anyone wants to accuse me of "throwing shade" by doing this, I will throw hands). Aza and Egix both basically said nothing with their votes, if you wanted to squint and stare at it, I

could

say Aza's seems better by being more bold than I'd expect from most scum where Egix was more generically sheepy but at that point I start to question if I'm starting at the screen too hard and starting to see spots in my eyes. fua's vote is more "reasonable" but I Did Not Like 94, it felt like they were possibly testing the waters on a Scorp vote but didn't want to be seen as the first to jump ship there, only moving when it became a bigger wagon.

[Retti]

Yeah, I’m not wasting anymore time “defending” myself. How such a weak push gains so much momentum is beyond me. As far as being “defensive”. That’s being manufactured, and people are buying it.I asked some obvious questions that anyone would ask. Good thing is, This train is giving me some information, though.

...information, such as?

Votes, and positions on the train.

I don't get what that is supposed to mean? Like, I would have assumed you were getting reads on the people pushing you, but you haven't really done that, in fact you gave a null/don't know stance on two of them so I have no idea what you're actually doing with this information.

[Retti]

And why the unvote?

[Retti]

Are you often slow to form reads/do anything with your vote on day 1? I don't understand what you're doing right now.

[Retti]

wow... Oman town, I don't see scum putting in that much effort this early

What about the effort did you like, exactly?

I retract 119, I didn't actually read the giant post, there's something that feels off about an Omin post I just read tbh

>___________________>

Sooo I asked specifically because I see scum do the "long post = town" gloss all the time early in games, because they get lazy and don't want to have to actually engage with the content and while that post was

fine

, it was mostly a lot of quote replies to stuff, which isn't particularly

hard

to do, it was just in one block rather than in a string of 5 posts like I'd do it. It wasn't bad, I in fact liked what he said about the scorpious wagon. However, I wanted to know what

Andante

liked about it, because that post actually had several sections that were critical of Andante, and she just seemingly went "yep good post!!!" at it. Which suggested she didn't really read it, which as I said tends to be a scumtell.

But does scum openly just...admit to not...actually reading? Argh.


Andante, what did you see that feels "off" to you?

[Retti]

Are you often slow to form reads/do anything with your vote on day 1? I don't understand what you're doing right now.

What's the rush? I don't understand why you're expecting actual reads from someone so far, like, I could see 1 or 2 TRs, or slight SRs, but typically people out stuff when they have it, and if you pressure them, they'll just say whatever

Because I am Trying to understand what Scorpious is doing this game, because the more he posts, the more confused I get about what he is doing. After that last rant of his I'm probably going to assume he's getting run up for playstyle differences more than anything alignment indicative and responding negatively to that, shrug my shoulders, and leave him alone.

[Retti]

well i was going to say i thought i had a play style clash with andante but now i think we should just vote her out now because i was certain she was scum in my last game with her. i backed out of it and she just endgamed as scum. i need to read this game again with that in mind but my initial thoughts were that andante was scum here but that was under the assumption that she was town in the other game which is not true.

i spent a lot of time meta'ing andante for my last game and i can confirm none of her town tells showed up in her last game, but i still believed she was town off other things, so i'll have to give this game a good read when i have more time later.

Cool, towny post, thank god that there's at least one person in this game that's an easy read that doesn't set the paranoid voices in the back of my head off.

[Retti]

hmm ok so i read some more pages and the only things i've got are that i feel very strongly that retti is town or their playstyle just appeals to me so much that i refuse to believe they could be scum.
i want to believe oman is town
i find scorpius scummy but i don't know if i necessarily think it's coming from scum, if that makes sense
about andante, im going to hold off on that for now. i have thoughts, a lot of them actually, but i dont feel good saying them right now because im sure i'll talk myself out of them and that'll frustrate me very much.
i think i'll just keep waiting for something to really ping me because so far im not really feeling solid on any reads.

Surely you didnt time that post specifically to pocket me right after I said I liked your post, right? >_>

[Retti]

I think Natalya probably has ~sincere conviction~ or whatever in her Scorp read, I just don't really think I see it, the questions he asked her are just asking her to explain her reads, which isn't exactly screaming "scum" to me. His response is weird but I would agree with Oman's assessment at the end of 115 that the votes on Scorp after Natalya look opportunistic in nature, which has me not wanting to go in that direction.

A thing that confuses me is that Retti/Oman believe the latter voters on the Scorp wagon to be opportunistic in nature but their votes are on T3, who is not voting for Scorp.

I was pretty explicit about why I made my vote in my post: It's better to have two strong wagons which cause people to move into "camps" and draw lines between each other than for me to vote egrix or whatever.

(I know this comes after the post I responded to you, but I was skimming, then went back to you instead of ignoring)
This one just read weird to me tbh idk, not enough for me to have a strong stance on Oman, but like "It's better to have two strong wagons which cause people to move into "camps" and draw lines between each other than for me to vote egrix or whatever." Who says this, this early in the game? like "ok, time to force wagons on 2 people and see what happens" it's definitely not my method of choice for how to play, but whatever, that post felt off though, idk how to explain.

And yeah, if it's a long post I'll tend to not really read it when skimming the thread, even though I know I produce a lot of long posts, but hey, sometimes you just say whatever, and see what sticks/people try to run with, like I knew I wasn't here for a while, wanted to see if people would jump in like "yep for sure town!!" just like the million TRs on me, like, are you saying it cause you genuinely think I'm town or you saying it cause you wanna try and pocket me, OR are youjust gonna repeat what everyone else says, it's like, yeah.

**So I didn't quote Retti's post, but this is in response to I think the first thing Retti just said, I see there's like 5 posts between them now

I mean, that seems like pretty explicitly a playstyle type of post (not that uncommon among older players from what I remember). Doesn't really bother me although I could see someone unfamiliar with old norms being weirded out by it. But it still concerns me that you don't seem to be reading the game critically, like you're giving all these takes but admitting to skimming posts, and like, are you more concerned with Being Here and Having Opinions rather than actually analyzing anything?

[Retti]

about andante, im going to hold off on that for now. i have thoughts, a lot of them actually, but i dont feel good saying them right now because im sure i'll talk myself out of them and that'll frustrate me very much.

It literally sounds like you wanna scumcase me. You had the paragraph on me, THEN went to go read?? Like, yeah if you want me to be scum, you can spin anything I say into it being scummy "omg andante is talking me out of my read on them" like, I'm serious, if that's the plan for this game, I will honestly have no part of that

why are you overreacting so much? i have specifically said i want to hold off on reading you and given my last game where i lead the push on you and let myself be swayed by you, why do you find any of this surprising?? i came in here and thought you were scum while thinking you were town in the other game. i just let scum you slip right out of my grasp and firmly believed you were town afterwards, to the point that i had you in my locktown category. now i am worried and trying my best to not make any hasty reads. i said my initial read and decided to go back and read again. is there a problem? i have said nothing specific about you so far besides my past experience with you and the fact that i will be rereading because of the game that just ended. i literally dont understand what your problem is when i haven't even given a firm read on you one way or another.

lets say i do want to scum case you and you are town, is that surprising? even just the paranoia from our last game together is enough to give me scumreads on you for the next five games. i dont understand your reaction to my posts - they make no sense.

Do you feel like this is similar to how Andante reacted to you pushing her in that other game?

[Retti]

ugh i want to vote azaariah as well

Er, Why?

[Retti]

there's the game
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88224

I can find the game, thanks. I was more interesed in Aza's opinion on it.

[Retti]

It feels like worst was angling to take advantage of Andante's over the top reaction to Aza there and escalate the tensions between them.

VOTE: the worst

[Retti]

what else would you have one do on day 1? what have you done that analyzes the game? what has anyone done?

This is such a weird, random pop-in. I'm pushing on things I find suspicious and asking questions to people to try to figure out if they're for real or bullshitting.

What are YOU doing to analyze the game?

ugh i want to vote azaariah as well

Er, Why?

because I'm finding them noncommittal and I think escalating the pressure against them with three votes within a page would force them to get spicier.

Okay, so...why talk about doing it, rather than actually doing it?

[Retti]

I don’t see how it’s a cheap ‘gotcha’ when I clearly expressed displeasure with the way the Scorpious wagon formed as well as an intent to change my vote a few posts prior to that.

That seems to be missing the point entirely? None of this is actual justification for voting Aza. Which, like, claiming a vote on page 4 on a very serious wagon was an RVS vote is weird, sure, but I don't see why scum chooses that path rather than saying they agreed with the wagon, aza's other posts are good enough that I shrug and buy the explanation.

[Retti]

retti is pressing buttons which is p cool, i haven't decided how i'm approaching solving their slot yet. i'm finding their push on me a bit uninteresting. honestly i'm old grumpy and experienced enough to either (1) make decisions to look a certain way and proceed accordingly, or (2) firmly posit that i'm doing the first thing and double down on it for no reason. i get why they think what i'm doing looks bad. i don't get why they think what i'm doing is scum-aligned. in broad strokes it might be fair to say i think this applies to a lot of what they're doing; they asking questions and making points but i'm kind of vibing til i see a bit more of like, where they're going with this.

It specifically felt like you were trying to take advantage of andante getting into it with Aza in what is probably TvT and were making overtures toward voting Aza, which I Did Not Like because they're one of my few solid townreads, and your justification was that they were being "noncommittal" and you "wanted to increase the pressure", which, nominally, is

fine

but...if you wanted to do that, why not just

actually do it

? The problem is what you were doing

doesn't actually increase pressure in a meaningful way

, it just looks like angling to slide onto a potential growing wagon?

[Retti]

And cause I know Retti is gonna say something, yes Retti, have no fear, I'm actually gonna case you later and look into stuff, then I'll feel good about what you are, I shouldn't even be here right now though, so byeeee see yall later. I'm town, dw. just trust

What I'm going to say is I thought you were townreading me? I'm confused

[Retti]

And cause I know Retti is gonna say something, yes Retti, have no fear, I'm actually gonna case you later and look into stuff, then I'll feel good about what you are, I shouldn't even be here right now though, so byeeee see yall later. I'm town, dw. just trust

What I'm going to say is I thought you were townreading me? I'm confused

Uh I'm genuinely confused on my reads too, and there's no one I trust 100% here, so my plan after finals is to figure out my thoughts/concerns on everyone and go from there. I'm like playing 4d chess in my mind here,like "ok Retti probably town, however, if Retti isn't town, I'd believe that too cause of X,Y,Z" it's a nightmare. especially cause my reads are consistently changing at the moment, so uhh just ignore me, there's a reason I'm voting no one right now

Lmao, okay, fair enough. That's understandable, I feel like this is a game where I'm having a lot of trouble getting solid townreads and I wish I was, like, a quintuple-voter

[Retti]

retti

Summarize the case on Retti for me?

I don't have one and that's why I'd love to see retti suffer a lil

I'm already signed up to play a game of mafia that's the most amount of suffering possible

[Retti]

retti is pressing buttons which is p cool, i haven't decided how i'm approaching solving their slot yet. i'm finding their push on me a bit uninteresting. honestly i'm old grumpy and experienced enough to either (1) make decisions to look a certain way and proceed accordingly, or (2) firmly posit that i'm doing the first thing and double down on it for no reason. i get why they think what i'm doing looks bad. i don't get why they think what i'm doing is scum-aligned. in broad strokes it might be fair to say i think this applies to a lot of what they're doing; they asking questions and making points but i'm kind of vibing til i see a bit more of like, where they're going with this.

It specifically felt like you were trying to take advantage of andante getting into it with Aza in what is probably TvT and were making overtures toward voting Aza, which I Did Not Like because they're one of my few solid townreads, and your justification was that they were being "noncommittal" and you "wanted to increase the pressure", which, nominally, is

fine

but...if you wanted to do that, why not just

actually do it

? The problem is what you were doing

doesn't actually increase pressure in a meaningful way

, it just looks like angling to slide onto a potential growing wagon?

when? lol

What? Last night, 232 then 260, which was why I voted you in the first place, because A) I disagreed and thought Aza was p. damn towny and B) it didn't really seem like you were interested in sorting Aza, it felt posture-y

[Retti]

Anyway.. reads..partial..full..right…wrong… and my favorite color is Blue.

Natalya- Not scum, or the best scum ever.. not scum

Andante-Not scum, also cheered me on *blush*. Thanks, nice break from getting pummeled.
But I’m a sucker for the active, and this seems way too active and non contradictory

Oman- This one is weird, was really the first one to outwardly “support” me, and the quotes meaning he didn’t come in guns blazing. I’m puzzled because they switched the vote to Jackson over..? Policy?
I feel a scum vote would easily Trump the policy vote.Is this the beginning of scum initiating activity arguments?This is a null for me

Retti- Scares me. I cannot read this person. On one hand they seem receptive to logic that isn’t from their own thought process, but When I read these posts they just give me this calculated vibe. I can’t put my finger on it..Gun to my head… scum.

T3- Get this feeling this can be a scum with Aza, Voting them, then accepting a single post to remove the vote, with little to no push does not sit well with me. I’d vote this

Fua- Really likes cutting me down, didn’t like how they answered twice in a row for Natalya when I was trying to get a reaction, feels coachish..not sure how AI that is though. I can see scum motivation for trying to guide another’s behavior. Scum….ish… lean? Like as close to null as you can be but still be on the scum side.

Az- The four paragraph “ I think this, but I might think that, but if I thought that, then I might think that..” turned me off. Is it even fluff anymore? Biggest scum read atm.

the worst- no read, this person is way beyond me in levels of skill. I feel stupid even trying to read this one. I intially felt like him and Natalya were site friends just having a good time, but I was wrong. This is a null..

Egix seems a touch opportunistic, but this is that murky activity area.
And the other 2, well.. we’ll see..

What posts did I make that came across as "calculate" to you?

I'm weirded out because I feel like "calculated" is honsetly a p. accurate descriptor of my scumgame but also I feel like it's the polar opposite of how I've been playing here, where I've been pretty off the cuff and all over the place? I don't get it, at all.

[Retti]

IDK if I'm just feeling petty tonight but I kind of hate those reads from Scorp

[Retti]

If I were to try to put it into words, he's scumreading Az for "waffling" but a lot of his reads are inconclusive as well? It feels kind of open-ended for who he's willing to vote?

[Retti]

uhhh I don't get a calculated impression from you lol, just very engaged, I saw that list, it's on my list to react to (a mental list I have lol so we know how that ends)

but like, normally I tr the first few reads lists, but like, idk, a reads list on everyone, when half the table should be null, ehhh this list doesn't do too much forme, feels forced, like "I have to post this" which is likely a direct result from all the votes that direction, so mehh. this is why I hate wagon pressure lol

IDK if I'm just feeling petty tonight but I kind of hate those reads from Scorp

Same, but you have to remember, Scorp is basically being forced to out reads, none of those seem too genuine, so who even knows

Yeah I guess, it's hard to describe it really, I don't feel like I have solid reads for the most part yet either, it's moreso the

way

he talks about things that bothers me, if that makes any sense.

[Retti]

IDK if I'm just feeling petty tonight but I kind of hate those reads from Scorp

If I were to try to put it into words, he's scumreading Az for "waffling" but a lot of his reads are inconclusive as well? It feels kind of open-ended for who he's willing to vote?

i think hypocrisy tends to come from purer mindsets before guilty mindsets a lot of the time (who have a tendency towards being more careful / avoiding being seen as fallacious)
is it not normal to remain open-ended as to who you would vote if you have a pool of people who you think are scum?

ftr i have a few issues with scorpius' read list but i feel like you're just picking on things which are optically not-ideal without actually considering what alignment is posting them?

I literally said I'm having trouble putting it into words but am just posting my immediate gut reaction (but also his read on me is butt)

[Retti]

@the worst, Retti is town, just assume that is true, and move on with your day 1, together the 3 of us will find a scum today

that's a bigger problem than retti being scum, because i am not convinced retti is making an effort to form reads on people's alignments. that, coming from townies, loses games.

are you actually reading anything I post

[Retti]

spice

btw i think this post reads a bit more angery!!! than i actually am right now
your reads are developing a bit slowly & over-focused on things that ~look bad~ rather than things which... like, scum actually do? your read on me is just a handy example since you expanded on it and it's based on several assumptions which are a bit moonlogicky.

Teh thing is I voted you on a momentary twinge, basically, but since then you have given me basically no reason to doubt it at all because I don't find your thinking believable and you keep taking potshots at me and it feels like you're just purposefully trying to tilt me now

[Retti]

Retti... we're gonna leave the worst alone...

I realize this is not going to be a Productive argument because no one is going to want to read it but I get super bothered when I get attacked for stuff that is blatantly not true

[Retti]

(I mean, yes, he's correct in that my reads have been slow to form, but that doesn't mean I'm not actually trying to sort people)

[Retti]

I get super bothered when I get attacked for stuff that is blatantly not true

Yeah same, however. The 3 of us are working together whether you 2 like it or not, at least for day 1, we will be limming scum here, and you're the most engaged thus far, so I think you're a perfect teammate, and the worst is kinda funny/can probably be useful in someway, so just hear me out, I'm only asking for day 1, we find the scum outside this trio. ok thanks! Day 2 feel free to tunnel the duck, but not day 1 here

*sighs deeply*

okay. I'll try. (I'm having a bad night for reasons unrelated to this game and it's probably coming through more than I'd like).

In your opinion, who should I be looking at?

[Retti]

I should probably have posted that a little bit sooner

[Retti]

I'm assuming that's effectively a VT claim.

[Retti]

Can we not have a hammer before people have had a chance to post, at least?

[Retti]

Townreading Egix feels like a step too far but I don't really get the hate there besides "low volume", his last few posts have been fine and he's doing more than duck/andres who are just prodging to stay in the game.

[Retti]

dwlee, do you have an actual read on scorp or are you just voting there because it's the only wagon, what's the deal?

[Retti]

IDK if I'm just feeling petty tonight but I kind of hate those reads from Scorp

mindmeld

Didn't you try to pull this type of "mindmeld" with something someone already said as scum?

[Retti]

I went back and re-read 392 from worst now that I'm feeling better and have centered myself and can read with fresh eyes and all that, and I can see that yes, his treatment of Aza was exactly as he describes it and it doesn't look like it had the malign intentions I initially assumed it did. I was in too much of a "protecc Aza at all costs" mindset at that moment in time and was interpreting any expression of suspicion in the worst possible light, which is a very silly mindset.


I still feel apprehensive reading worst's posts for reasons I am completely unable to express in Actual Words, but I can't really justify voting him at this point in time.

UNVOTE:


I've been too focused on real-timing, I'm going to reread the game and see if I can get a clearer view of it, my reads are a mess right now.

[Retti]

@UglyDuck:

I looked over your reads list, who do you actually suspect right now?

[Retti]

I don't necessarily think uglyduck is scum for those reads (actually felt like, does scum really make a list with literally no scumreads?) but don't mind the pressure there at all and want to see how he responds.

Still working on rereading, have time today so should be able to get that done eventually.

[Retti]

I'm not actually sure you get what I'm saying - if he's making that list as scum he's leaving himself almost nowhere to push which means he's likely boxing himself out. I know sometimes scum make dumb posts that are un-strategic anyway, I'm just saying, wouldn't be the first time I've seen town make a readslist like that. Like I said I'm fine with the pressure and hopefully it gets him to come back and talk a bit more.

[Retti]

Rereading is mostly reminding me why I was struggling to form solid reads in the first place.

[Retti]

Took a look back at Azaraaiah and I was very charmed by 196 where they came in talking about being paranoid of Andante having just seen her endgame as scum in that other game and then us making posts calling each other towny within a minute of each other. Looking back that post isn't as strong as I thought on seeing it initially and it's actually a bit waffly but I still like it a decent amount in that they were holding back on saying stuff in the game to wait for info from that other game rather than trying to make a splash right away. However beyond that I do actually really feel like the worst has a point about them being noncommittal, there's a little too many instances where they talk a lot about someone without much in the way of a definite conclusion (e.g. 245, latter part of 272). I do like that they committed to a strong scumread in 517 but want to hear their explanation as to why, which they offered and haven't given. I think honestly I still kind of want to townlean them just for sounding pure when I read through their posts but probably want to see a bit more

I'm not sure I really understand why people are townreading dwlee. Since replacing in they've essentially made a few naked bandwagon votes and that's it. Not seeing anything in the way of trying to actually solve people? I didn't really like the response to Natalya in 500 either, just felt overly defensive. Leaning scum.

Aside from my vague distrust of the worst which is apparently a result of me being A Person Who Does Not Get Jokes, I think he's been all right and is trying to move the game forward in a productive way and all that, which is good and I don't want to vote him, but I can't bring myself to feel comfortable calling him town based on anything he's done. IDK. This is a shit non-read.

I feel like my suspicion of fua this game has been because every reason they've jumped on for voting people has been so

basic

but I recognze that not everyone thinks the same way I do, probably a big difference in playstyles here? Think the way they were pushing scorp to give actual content was pro-town rather than simply just piling on to him and them getting fired up arguing with scorp in 321 felt very genuine. 442 is an unobjectionable post as far as reads go but I want to see more solid stances (I realize this is perhaps hypocritical given my output so far, but also I don't care lmfao). I

hate

the dwlee read in 506 though, tnough to take away a townlean. Null.

Ehh, I can't get over my dislike of basically everything T3 posts, I know he can be jumpy as town but the way he mostly seems to be latching on to whatever someone else is pushing at that given moment skeeves me the hell out and nothing yet sells me that he has sincere conviction in any of his reads.

I actually took the time to examine that recently completed scumgame from Andante and I think she's pretty different here. In that other game she was frequently defensive and concerned mostly with attacking people, and just felt...irritable in all her posts. It could just be a change of circumstances in that she's under less pressure here but she just seems a lot more carefree and happy and is actually trying to work with people. Just as an example I don't think she bothers trying to break up me fighting with the worst if she's scum this game, having a big fight continue to rage is tremendously useful for scum and actually playing mediator the way she did is something scum rarely do, in my experience. It does alleviate some of the concerns I had with how she seemed to be glossing over posts or drawing hasty conclusions in a way that could have easily been scum faking reads, but there was a little bit of dynamicness to her thinking that seemed okay. Probably need to dig deeper into her reasoning but I'm all right with slotting her as town for the moment.

Went back and checked Natalya for 5 minutes and went "yep still town okay bye"

Oman contentwise has also been

fine

, I felt sympathetic to them getting frustrated with the game but they seem to have fallen off a bit. Still like their earlier posts, though.

Despite me snapping at Scorp it feels like he's...trying? I feel way more sympathetic to his reads list after going over the game myself bcause it's

hard

to get a handle on anyone. I feel like he might be town who got off on the wrong foot and reacted badly to getting pushed. I put no confidence in this read.

Egix is...IDK. He's lurking hard, but 269 and 444 weren't

terrible

? Concerned that he could be scum doing the bare minimum though.

Andres slips closer and closer to scum territory every time he shows up just to prodge and promise content to come soon™

Kind of eh on uglyduck, but I think if they come back and post more they'll be more readable.


It feels like I am completely unable to get much in he way of solid townreads and normally in a game on day 1 I

should

have a little more than that but it's just very hard for me so far, it feels a bit like everyone is in a staring contest or something and no one wants to be the one who blinks.

Town, in order of strength:
Natalya
Andante
Azaraaiah

Null
Oman
the worst
Scorpious
UglyDuck
fua
Egix

Scum
dwlee
andres
T3

[Retti]

I actually kind of hate the wagon composition on UglyDuck right now?

[Retti]

VOTE: dwlee99

I had written up that reads wall before UglyDuck came back, took me hours to get through it. I don't really hate UglyDuck's posts this page.

[Retti]

Andante, why do you scumread Natalya? Honestly very confused by that read.

[Retti]

I'm not sure I really understand why people are townreading dwlee. Since replacing in they've essentially made a few naked bandwagon votes and that's it. Not seeing anything in the way of trying to actually solve people? I didn't really like the response to Natalya in 500 either, just felt overly defensive. Leaning scum.

Bandwagoning isn't a scum tell and I expect you to know that

Lol, okay.

[Retti]

Sometimes the Level 0 read works because everyone assumes scum wouldn't do the cliche scummy thing so scum do it because it benefits them and they get a pass. This is 4th dimensional chess.

[Retti]

Andante, why do you scumread Natalya? Honestly very confused by that read.

I sr natalya? if I'm being completely honest, I don't remember like anything from this game. looks like everyone TRs T3 now? I just spent 13 hours driving, woke up 2am,drove, now im tired, but figured I'd check in, see no other votes on T3, and T3 asking permission to vote... mmmk I'll ISO myself/ catch up tomorrow,I was gonna iso people and compare to your reads you just gave to see if I agree/not and give thoughts.

...this game is going to give me a migraine

[Retti]

You realize that coming back in and saying you completely forgot your read on the person you said was "screaming scum" two days ago is giving me hives, right?

[Retti]

That was supposed to be @ Andante

[Retti]

In fact, I might just VOTE: Scorp.

VOTE: Scorp
claim please

unvote

I'm not really comfortable ending the day this early.

What information do you think we would get from you Scorp if we were to flip you here?

Ok, so I will say that I wanted to explain more on that cause I was mobile, and mobile is a pain, I didn't realize Natalya unvoted, and I was like "I KNOW NATALYA IS VOTING, WHY IS SHE NOT TAKING HER VOTE OFF???" I don't think maf would be bold enough to put on e-1 and go "claim" that early, so I'm pretty sure dwlee town, but T-3 there, I SR T3 a lot. like "oh hey im putting you e-2 lol" immediately after egix stuff.

I sr t3 the most right now....

Okay I guess

I don't really buy the idea that scum wouldn't make that vote dwlee did but would be perfectly fine voting T3

I kind of don't get why the wagon on him dissolved other than people going, "hey look at uglyduck!"

[Retti]

VOTE: T3

I'm going to metadive dwlee just because it will annoy them

[Retti]

Retti, just for clarification— have you ever played a game with Dwlee before? I’ve played with both Town Dwlee and Scum Dwlee, and I personally don’t really feel like this is scum-motivated play rather than town being messy and not caring about the way they’re read.

No which is why I'm metadiving (because everyone is citing meta either as a defense or an attack) but I don't get why the play can't be scum-motivated especially if they know people are going to defend them for it

[Retti]

You played with me in MBOS

oh right

I forgot about that because I was in a hydra and depressed and could barely focus and wound up embarrassingly quitting

I guess that gives some perspective

[Retti]

Forget that for a moment, fua can you tell me what your actual reads are right now? Just in a list, no reasoning.

[Retti]

You played with me in MBOS

oh right

I forgot about that because I was in a hydra and depressed and could barely focus and wound up embarrassingly quitting

I guess that gives some perspective

Now that my memory is jogged, I guess the thing abos MBOS was that I found you town there because you were so visibly disinterested in it in a way I didn't think would come from scum but here it's felt less like being bored and directionless, more like going along with whatever people are doing? Eh I'll give it a reread even though I don't want to

[Retti]

meh I guess this isn't that different from mbos

[Retti]

Was kind of hoping to get an actual timely answer from fua

[Retti]

LMAO my timing is impeccable

[Retti]

I mostly wanted to pin you down on having some actual solid stances and see how long it'd take you to produce a list

[Retti]

Sorry for not seeing your question in under 20 minutes.

Whatever, NP, I had assumed you had just dipped and not seen it which is hardly an indictment I just get more value if it's immediate reads off the top of the head rather than something that can be considered and prepared

[Retti]

Forget that for a moment, fua can you tell me what your actual reads are right now? Just in a list, no reasoning.

Town:
Retti
Andante
Worst
Azaariah

Null:
Oman
Dwlee
Natalya

Scum:
Uglyduck
T3
Scorpious

Not playing:
Egix
Andres

Some of these are conditional, though. Bottom three isn’t a scumteam so much as ‘the three most likely to be scum’. Egix and Andres are unrankable because they aren’t actually in this game.

Why's Natalya null if you scumread scorp? Like, I don't mean to do preflips, but...

[Retti]

Have we actually found the Scum yet?

I am in the game! I just have not gotten around to posting much. It’s been hectic.

Hectic isn't in this game, actually

[Retti]

I thought t3 was town but his vote on me was bad and he just... hasn't elaborated. It's like the *refuses to elaborate* meme

Why did you even think he was town in the first place

[Retti]

Ive seen no evidence that you, myself or about 6 other players in this game aren't hectic alts. remain vigilant, my new friend. hectic alts are always where you least suspect them.

Well I was in a game with Hectic so if I'm a Hectic alt it seems you skittles aren't doing your job

[Retti]

I am Town though. So just relax and let me read.

Respectfully, it's been a week, at what point can we expect you to start actually playing?

[Retti]

What's going o-

[Retti]

I feel like my suspicion of fua this game has been because every reason they've jumped on for voting people has been so

basic

but I recognze that not everyone thinks the same way I do, probably a big difference in playstyles here?

I don't like this because of how noncomittally it splits the difference. I have *such* a nullread on Retti coming into this post, and it's the kind of post where I can see scum using this to sprinkle a post that they can point back to later, without actually committing to anything.

I feel like the context after there makes it pretty clear for the reasons for my ambivalence on fua. When I got them to actually commit to some solid reads I thought they were all right.,

Tbf though you could fault me for being "noncommittal" in most of my reads, I have like half the game as null, but it's just very hard for me to have strong opinions right now.

[Retti]

Not particularly whelmed by Gamma Emerald's posting so far, questions to worst and dwlee feel softball, quick nothing townreads

[Retti]

i have a hard time believing dwlee actually scumreads uglyducks. the wagon analysis is not my favorite either. i feel like there's just a bit too much focus on how much they are frustrated as opposed to content. in general, the reasons to vote people aren't going to be that good. votes are just ways to express that we agree with a certain thought. nothing more nothing less.

dwlee seems to flip between frustrated/ateing and extremely towny solving from these last couple posts and i feel like it's sort of the panic of a player who is struggling to figure out which scum tactic they should use. i might be thinking too much but im willing to mislim town on day one because i think this flip gives good information anyways. the worse case scenario is just a pr out and that sucks but we'll still be fine honestly.

I disagree pretty heavily? That string of posts from dwlee on page 33 makes me not want to vote them, feels townspewy just in terms of how they're going about analyzing things.

Like okay they're FOSing 3 people who are all on their wagon which is never actually true but I feel like that's more likely to come from town with bruised ego than anything else

[Retti]

i did read the "wagon analysis"
scum hop on is a really lazy way to sum up my posts in this game. i did not read the other reads because i didn't feel inclined to. in general, it feels like you are ateing but trying to cover it up with "solvy" posts. i find the solvy posts on their own pretty towny but with the ate, i don't feel good about either.

This just feels very uncharitable, like you're not even really trying to address what they're saying at all

[Retti]

i might be thinking too much but im willing to mislim town on day one because i think this flip gives good information anyways. the worse case scenario is just a pr out and that sucks but we'll still be fine honestly.

This seems like a very strange approach to solving the game. What kind of information do you think will be gained by flipping Dwlee as opposed to Uglyduck?

Also, where is Dwlee using AtE again? Scorp’s anger at being scumread and excusing his play by saying it’s been a while since he’s been here is AtE, not Dwlee’s recent posting. Might have missed something from them, though.

goodposting from fua

[Retti]

so it's meta
also VOTE: UglyDuck because I feel like dwlee's thing about loftwing might be valid just because in the game he linked he also cited a similar occurence so I think there's just a chain of it happening potentially lol (alongside other thoughts I've expressed, that bit I mentioned here is just why I'm opting for UD vs. dwlee because tbf both don't seem like bad votes rn)

Honestly this vote is p. sketchy

[Retti]

Like I could easily see scum interrogating wlee to seem "reasonable" and "solvy" then just agreeing so they can hop on the counterwagon without looking opportunistic because they went through a show of seeming considerate and weighing the options

[Retti]

Doctor

I'll be honest: my first instinct is to say "buuuulllshiiiit" but I am heavily biased against day 1 PR claims, thinking more rationally if there's no other protective claim just leave it alone for now.

[Retti]

Would vastly prefer a wagon on T3 over aza still even if I'm a bit squicked by some of their recent posts.

[Retti]

I'm going to need to take notes on this Oman v. dwlee argument aren't I

[Retti]

Okay 859 bothers me because the posts dwlee quoted in 858 were made

before

the doctor claim and Oman just goes "Oh you you're mad I won't vote the doctor huh?????" which is wildly misrepping the point being made

[Retti]

873 is okay though and maes IOman make a lot more sense in context and the logic feels townie BUT I disagree on the overblown response, the raginess honsetly reminds me a little of myself as town when I get pissed off at people scumreadinf me because I feel like my alignment could be selfevident, I

get

why someone might think it's scummy though. Now I want to step in and yell "can you two just stop fighting and yeet T3, please and thank you"

[Retti]

Like I don't even want to continue, this is TVT, I don't want this to consume our entire deadline while scum just chill in the background

[Retti]

That picture is absolutely nightmarish. Where does George find these horrors?

[Retti]

Doctor

i don't buy this based on the idea i have of georgebailey mod meta

Sleazy argument.

[Retti]

I think my entire POE right now is T3/andres/Scorp/Gamma. I suddenly feel a lot better about a lot of people being towny after my first reads list.

surely my overconfidence will not come back to haunt me

[Retti]

I think my entire POE right now is T3/andres/Scorp/Gamma. I suddenly feel a lot better about a lot of people being towny after my first reads list.

surely my overconfidence will not come back to haunt me

Your POE is bad. But I can’t really object to being included, since I haven’t had the time to play all that much.

Do you actually townread any of those other people, or...?

[Retti]

How in the actual world was aza town... like there genuinely wasn't a single towny thing in that ISO...

I disagree. but whatever, no point arguing over it now.

VOTE: T3

[Retti]

Andante still town because scum doesn't go that hard burying a LHF when they don't need to

Still think dwlee is prob town but slightly more annoyed there so am on edge

[Retti]

Andante
Natalya
fua

Oman
Dwlee99
the worst

Gamma Emerald
Scorpious
Andresvmb
T3

[Retti]

That'd be more fun for the both of us for sure

this is tmi-ing me as town

i don't know how much more obvious it can be that dwlee is mafia

also I'm pretty sure andante is also mafia

That is unfortunate

[Retti]

Retti why is scorp low

Other people have gotten more town than him, where past him getting mad at the game I can't remember much of what he's said and felt he's faded

[Retti]

i literally did not read aza's flip until now
VOTE: d w l e e

i want dwlee dead
i think they're scum
i think natalya is town

the way they keep brushing off my slot seems like scum trying to act too natural

Can we please yeet this

[Retti]

I mean I've probably done it before? Maybe? As I said, I thought aza was doing the exact thing that iv did and went okay hammer button time.

I am asking you for an example of a time where town!you decided to quickhammer someone right after they claimed to cut day short and not let anyone else react to the claim.

In my opinion that is a strictly +++scum move.

If you have an example of you ever doing this as town, then obviously it's not a scumclaim as it's something you've done before as town.


Also you bringing up a time that Enchant did it to a scum player is incredibly disingenuous.

Enchant is a completely different player than you and plays in a completely different way(and you know this!!!)

I am asking for an example of YOU doing it when YOU ARE TOWN.

I'm not sure this is a sensible argument - even if it's not a move they've done before as town, it doesn't mean they would literally never do it at any point in the future, people try different things sometimes and I think the explanation for their motives in 1038 makes sense from a town POV. I don't think it's

that

unbelievable like you're treating it - point isn't to reference something someone else did but demonstrate how they though Aza was playing in a way they've seen scum act before

Like, I wasn't really thrilled with the hammer but I don't think playing for the sake of retribution is the best way of finding scum

[Retti]

I don't really agree? T3 has done nothing that shows me he is actually trying to find scum this game.

[Retti]

I am not playing for retribution

I thought dwlee was mafia before they quickhammered

the quickhammer is just another proscum move they made.

yeah wtf that’s a strange accusation by retti

I know he's gone now but I'm just saying the idea of "This person quickhammered a claimed VT sio they are openwolfing" is mostly just equating actions someone dislikes with being mafia and yes I get that Natalya was scumreading dwlee prior to the hammer

[Retti]

VOTE: Retti

What have

you

done to try to find scum? I’d like to hear your own reasoning behind the list you posted.

What?
I would like to point you to reference

my entire fucking ISO

I don't think it's hard to see ho I got to where I'm standing on people and I'm self-evidently scumhunting, this is really fucking random and dumb

[Retti]

If you want me to actually explain a read, then

ask

, but if you try to hold me at metaphorical gunpoint to do so on every player in the game I'm going to tell you to fuck off

[Retti]

Is that our sixth replace out?

He got banned

[Retti]

If you want me to actually explain a read, then

ask

, but if you try to hold me at metaphorical gunpoint to do so on every player in the game I'm going to tell you to fuck off

Explain your scumreads. They feel consensus-y.

1. Consensus-y

according to who

2. Do you think that is a scumtell

3. Do you

actually disagree

with any of those reads? Do you think the game is headed in a wrong direction entirely?

If you can actually answer that I might humor your request but I see quite literally zero reason I need to be doing an entire song and dance for you here - I'm pretty sure I've made it clear why I'm voting T3 here

[Retti]

I checked my own ISO and it's very fragmentary but T3 has essentially just been jumping on other people's pushes whenever there was an opportunity, every time he gets criticized he changes his behavior immediately - like when I thought his read were fake at the start so he just stopped explainig or just now when he got criticized for dwlee so he went and miraculously changed his mind, he tried to get people to eliminate the doctor on day 1 using a gross "mod meta" argument, he has not at any point had a read that did not feel like he was just following along with what someone else was doing. He's not scumhunting, just trying to kill town.

And now I need to sleep.

[Retti]

I officially hate this game

[Retti]

Between the quickhammers and the vig (presumably) shooting oman this has been a complete shitshow that has completely destroyed my will to live

[Retti]

VOTE: dwlee

just vote for me or dwlee today please

Can we please not rush the vote when we're in MELO? I would like to do at least One Thing right this game.


I didn't reread the game at all during the night and I plan to throw all my previous reads in the dumpster and start over from scratch today because clearly I've been pretty fucking wrong somewhere.

[Retti]

VOTE: natalya

i cant even express how much i hate you all

Uh?

[Retti]

1-shot vig, I shot andante

wait WHAT

GOD

HOW

[Retti]

1-shot vig, I shot andante

wait WHAT

GOD

HOW

She was scummy...

I disagree but w/e

[Retti]

I'm too pissed off for this game right now but Natalya please unvote yourself if you're town

[Retti]

unvote

doobe doowop

Thank you

[Retti]

The T3 wagon wasn't stupid, he was scummy and barely even trying to play the game. I only half regret it even now

Can we not try to speedrun MELO though? Why is Scorpious "obvscumming", fua, and why is he your most confident scumread?

[Retti]

We should probably be massclaiming also

[Retti]

Who's mafia, scorpious

[Retti]

(also why is a self-vote on melo town)

[Retti]

So im up to the doctor claim and is like to read the reactions.
UNVOTE:

VOTE: Azaariah as they were my vote prior, because of how much they seem to talk in circles.


That’s an E-2 btw

If I have to pick from the two I say:

VOTE: T3

Dwlee entering the game telling me to claim is just too obvscum, like I’m not going to outhink myself on this.

That would be so dumb as scum.. I just can’t see it.

Lol wow

[Retti]

So im up to the doctor claim and is like to read the reactions.
UNVOTE:

VOTE: Azaariah as they were my vote prior, because of how much they seem to talk in circles.


That’s an E-2 btw

If I have to pick from the two I say:

VOTE: T3

Dwlee entering the game telling me to claim is just too obvscum, like I’m not going to outhink myself on this.

That would be so dumb as scum.. I just can’t see it.

Lol wow

Wow. What?

Just noting your voting history

Who's scum, BTW?

[Retti]

Not keen to rush the vote but not sure what anyone else is doing, probably going to ISO people today if I'm not too busy

[Retti]

Uhhh...happy new year


Anyone still here?

[Retti]

Let's kill Fua.

hey great can you explain why you said this when you entered the game

[Retti]

I'm like...halfway done doing an iso post by post analysis of Scorpious, I forgot how long doing this stuff takes when I started.

[Retti]

I don't get what you mean by that?

[Retti]

I don't think everyone's posted at the same time but hopefully we're not getting slow rolled because of people being away for new year's - I don't

think

the team is Natalya/andres/Enchant, anyway.

Honsetly, based on this ISO I would really not be surprised if Scorp and Galron are both scum - Scorp had this whole weird thing where he called egix's posts bad but wouldn't vote him.

[Retti]

Hey scorp

who's scum

[Retti]

I don't care about your rebuttals to that specific point I just want you to commit to having one (1) fos, which you keep dodging actually answering

[Retti]

okay fine i'll answer that - I was referring specifically to the early game, e.g. 118 and 143, along with your read on him in 326 - yes, you did finally vote him but it was essentially a vanity vote while egix was no serious threat of becoming a wagon and you didn't push it at all

[Retti]

VOTE: Retti

You realize that there are two people who are already voting you, right

I feel like that'd be the most natural place to start

[Retti]

IDK dude, if you're town here it would be helpful if you started actually discussing things, like yes I'm making it clear I suspect you of being scum but I'm giving you a chance to talk and state your opinions and what you're doing right now is very not helpful

[Retti]

Pedit- your point? People voting me doesn’t make them
Scum.

There are 3 mafia in the game. So if both people who are voting you are town, the remaining 3 mafia could vote you and win the game. So I don't know why you'd assume the people voting you are town, unless you think mafia simply haven't been online to hammer? And if you think that is the case, why are you not talking to them at all and trying to get them tounvote? You're not showing any of the urgency I'd expect from town in this situation.

[Retti]

Also, Galron replaced Egix, the person I said I thought you could be mafia with. So...is he town or scum?

[Retti]

If you are town I would very much like you to bother, I assure you that you are not the only one frustrated with how this game has played out, but I need you to do more than reactive snap voting me in MELO because that is only going to add to my frustration.

[Retti]

Also, Galron replaced Egix, the person I said I thought you could be mafia with. So...is he town or scum?

Dude he’s posted twice..

I don't get this answer. He replaced people who had posts. You suspected one of the people who he replaced. His second post was a vote on you, apparently without being caught up on the game. Is he town or scum?

[Retti]

Why would I change my thought? Scum

But it’s also not fair you calling me out one not referencing someone that nobody else has.

I don't think it's "unfair" for me to ask you about him when he is voting you and you had previously expressed a scumread on his slot. (also, you're, like, the only other person posting and I'm trying to get

something

out of this day, I'd be questioning anyone else if they were actually here)

[Retti]

uh...okay

good talk, then

[Retti]

This verges on being nothing more than a summary but I wanted to run down what Scorpious has posted as a way of...trying to make my process transparent, I tend to look at people's body of work and get a general impression but when I summarize that stuff people never seem to actually get it, so I'm hoping annotating this stuff makes it easier to see what I'm looking at.

This was also all stuff before my back and forth with him, not really going to comment on that.

Spoiler: Scorpious post by post ISO

9 - rvs vote
57 - response to natalya's scumread
58, 59, 60 - questions
73, 75 - response to fua asking about his reaction to the vote
77, 78 - more questions
81 - "I hate the timing of this post in relation to the one by Natalya. " about T3 posting erads
82 - asks if T3 has played with natalya
83 - asks andante if her opinion changed on T3
85, 86 - "really likes" natalya's opening but is "wary" of the followup
98, 100 - more questioning of T3 about Natalya, unsure what the importance is
117 - frustrated with "weak weak push", says defending himself is wasting time, says "This train is giving me some information"
118 - says Egix's vote on him is the "worst post of the game"
121 - "I lean town on Asante, don’t know what to think of Natalya, null on you, and have not a single clue how to read T3 as of now.."
This had bothered me in the fisrt place, because I never knew what information he was supposed to be getting from the votes on him
122 - calls oman one of his "strongest town leans."
126 - says T3's response to Natalya saying she doesn't expect we'll get anything useful out of T3 bothers him but proposes there's amongst Natalya/me/T3, which is pretty odd because I have no idea why that would be scummy for me or Natalya
127 - says the information he's getting is "Votes, and positions on the train."
139 - response to Natalya saying "’m not going to vote someone every time they do something I don’t like"
140 - unvotes fua, doesn't place a new vote
142 - elaborates on what the votes are supposed to mean, reiterates egix's vote is bad but won't vote him back, doesn't commit to a read on
144 - says he unvoted because it was still his RVS
146 - Gives te excuse that he's slow to form reads because he's very deliberate especially when there are people that haven'tsaid anything. This resonated with me at the time because I felt like I had a hard time getting many opinions on the game either
152 - question to natalya about his "rvs meaning nothing". I don't like this because it seems to misconstrue the crux of her argument, which is that he's not using his vote to scumhunt, into criticizing her vote on him
154 - defends himself from natalya saying he's not interested in scumhunting by saying it's his playstyle, she's distracting, says she's obviously town but tunneled, asks what her thoughts on egix are
155 - responding to fua here, who said the same thing about miscontruing the argument at the time
157 - annoyance at fua questioning him, wants to talk to natalya and "get her reactions", not sure why he'd need to get reactions from someone he has as town
160 - says Natalya is too brazen to be scum
171 - AtE post complaining about how he's getting picked on for playng differently and there's too much meta stuff going on. I remember this is what made me feel like backing off him at the time
174 - complaining about some posts by natalya/fua
206 - asks what aza means by calling andante "explain-y" and why it's bad
273 - says he's been playing like crap and wants to reset
281 - attacks aza for being "waffly" and tries to say they're hypocritical which feels unfair, the aza post was maybe rambly but it had some concrete thoughts in it
285 - asks how him and aza's posts are different to natalya
291 - still continues to say aza is non commital, which is at least an opinion of some sort
292, 293 - more arguing with natalya
297, 299 - some questioning of azaraaiah about what they were doing
303 - says he wants to get an answer from aza, seems at least fairly intent on this questioning
307 - asks fua about agreeing with the sentiments of the person they're voting
310, 315, 319 - more arguing with fua
326 - reads list that he got called out on, still rather hedgy on a lot of players with scum reads on a lot of people
328, 374 - votes azaariah
412 - filler joke post
454 - "just lim me and use the information from my train." give up post. Honestly still looks kind of townie
471 - shading dwlee for their E-1 vote on him. I dunno my first impulse is to say with dwlee as conftown, scorp looks worse for this but in the same situation I'd hate the vote too, would probably flip my shit actually
477 - more complaining about being pushed on
481, 484 - interaction with natalya
487 - backpedals on dwlee to say he thinks "scum wouldn't be so obvious", which is a weird assumption to make
499 - calls natalya and andante town
513 - actually votes egix for saying there wasn't all that much happening, he gives the rebuttal that there was
520 - complains about aza critiquing him, says he thinks aza is scum, but asks aza who isn't.
523 - more irritation at aza, "What is the pre requisite amount of town reads I should have right now" I kind of don't like this because it feels like a "what do you want from me?" type of question that scum sometimes ask when they're being pushed on, idk how to explin the psychology from it but it comes from looking for a way to get rid of suspicion
538, 540 - more arguing with natalya, makes a sort of threat to start scumreading her if she keeps pushing on dwlee. possibly taking advantage of natalya and dwlee tunneling each other? (need to check the timing on that)
563 - question to dwlee about their statements on T3, I actually like this
569 - complains to fua about misrepresenting his list
571 - followup
581 - I think this is saying he'd support a vote on uglyduck because his raed on fua is horrible, but he messed up the quote
582, 586 - just stuff about missing the quotes
593 - E-2 vote on uglyduck
631 - calls natalya 0 for 2 on him and uglyduck, asks about who she'd vote
637, 639, 642 - irritated response to dwlee saying his questions was useless and is not really reading
645, 647, 650 - more frustration
652, 654 - asking dwlee why they answered for natalya
656 - accuses dwlee of trying to shift the wagon back to him, which sort of goes against his stated townread
658, 662, 664 - more arguing, it all seems very pointless but I'm not sure it's AI
666 - "You’re kind of an asshole. But you’re still town" to dwlee. this kind of doesn't gel with the "you're trying to shift the wagon back to me" a bit earlier
815 - asking dwlee about the makeup of the uglyduck wagon
904, 967 - falls behind, makes posts about catching up
969 - moves back to azaariah for the E-2 vote
970 - restates townread on dwlee
1034 - seems to be possibly shading dwlee for hammering aza?
1036 - but says no claim was going to stop the wagon, not sure of the point of these posts
1039 - but is okay with dwle's explanation, so that's pretty pointless
1040 - asks pointless question about T3 making an injoke to dwlee
1044 - asks natalya if she'd have changed her vote based on the claim
1070, 1071 - E-2 vote on T3, continues to defend dwlee
1096 - comments on me raging at fua
1184 - complaining
1194, 1195 - bitching at natalya and fua
1196 - asking if natalya's unvote is valid
1201 - "It was a benign,simple question" to Natalya
1202 - weird response to galron voting him, seems unbothered by it
1204 - won't actually gives reads to natalya other than calling her town
1210 - nothing response to me calling out his voting record

I felt like some of the angry tonal stuff in the middle resonated with me a bit, and he had a few posts that looked like he was actually solving then, but I feel like since then scorpious has kind of coasted heavily and reverted to not doing much, like how he keeps getting prodded to explain who's mafia today and not giving answers at all. I think my biggest issue with him is that his voting record appears opportunistic - he put the E-2 votes on uglyduck, azaariah, and T3, which were all wagons on town. Granted, he was arguing aza was scum before most people were so it's not like he's doing nothing but sheeping, but it still stuck out to me, because he's not really done a whole lot else.

I worry a bit that there's a playstyle difference here and he could non-responsive due to being frustrated with the game but the iso overall is pretty lacking and my whole exchange with him today was super bizarre because it felt impossible to get him to give a real read on galron. Right now I lean toward him being mafia but want to review other slots before making a decision.

[Retti]

Emotion gets dismissed a lot as not alignment indicative, but honestly, that’s not true. T3 wrote that they thought Scorpious early floundering was NAI. I really strongly disagree. I think Scorpious reaction to being wagoned early in the game screams of Town. But what do I know.

Retti might actually be efforting too much for Scum but in that case, I would argue that their read of Scorpious is too based on tone. There’s not enough strategic thinking here. Scorpious could be Scum I suppose but where is the heated argument? Why are two players saying they will sheep you DW and everyone else alive is basically shading the slot? Are you telling me both Enchant and Natalya are Scum with Scorpious and they’re trying to avoid scrutiny? I guess that’s possible?

First of all, isn't the first quote basically you reading him off tone in terms of his reaction to being wagoned? Second of all, my suspicion of him

isn't

based on tone here - I even said that,

if anything

, the tone makes me feel like he is town, but his voting record is suspect, he dropped off in terms of activity which could indicate scum lurking once they're no longer actively being pressured, and even now at this stage of the game he seems unwilling to commit to any scumreads

[Retti]

Oh right D1 VT?

He didn't explicitly claim but that was what I assumed with his "give up" post, basically

[Retti]

Actually, on second thought, I feel like Azaariah’s flip will yield more information than T3’s even if I think they’re a little less likely to be scum.

VOTE: Azaariah

I feel like if they flip red, that makes Scorpious, Andres, and Gamma look a lot better than they do now. Worst case scenario this flip gives us a lot of insight into alignments through association and we get rid of a meat shield for scum to hide behind.

That’s E-1.

It’s also somewhat hilarious that the player they listed towards the top of the Town list is a player they voted for “information”.

Anyway, I wouldn’t trust fua for shit is I guess what I’m saying.

Went and checked, they had 834 in between but that is a really odd progression to have

[Retti]

I haven’t really played the game right, no one TRs me, I don’t have any influence, and I haven’t even finished reading every post. Do you think I would try and stick my neck out for a Partner on the brink, or do you think I’m more likely to try and continue the pattern so far of not saying much, laying low, and perhaps hope that a Town member screws up and votes amongst those that have votes out and are Town? I guess you won’t know for sure until after the game is over, but my guess is that I would have hard bussed and try and get some credibility by making some sort of credible argument against Scorpious.

I mean the question is: do you actually think bussing scorpious now would actually give you any credit in a situation where you're scum with him, when other people have been beating the drum for him being scum for a much longer time, and are generally more townread than you?

[Retti]

Btw DW how often do you see Scum get voted up by two Town, and they vote outside of the wagon that has formed on them? Clearly what you do there is try and argue forcefully that one of the people voting you is Scum, and then if you get executed they get NK’ed anyway since they’ve basically cleared themselves. Why is Scorpious voting for Retti of all people?

Like this, this is my problem with that. He is being voted by two people. By rights, he should be considering one of them as scum. But when I tried to press him on it, he wouldn't commit to that and even made a remark about how just because they're voting for him doesn't make them scum. But he had previously stated a scumread on egix, which I literally had to remind him of before he said anything, and he said basically nothing at all about fua, I don't even know what his read on fua is. The problem with this is that I expect a town player to at least be keeping some idea in their head of how they're viewing people, and he should be giving consideration to the people voting him based on whether they're town or scum - if town he should be trying to persuade them to not vote him, if they're scum he should be casing them. He is doing neither and actively refuses to do so.

That fact that he

won't

even push back against them and voted me instead just because I proposed a hypothetical of him being mafia with egixslot makes no sense from a town point of view to me. He basically barely engaged with the votes on him except to make vague insults at them. It's like he doesn't want to crossvote them.

[Retti]

It is absurdly suboptimal as Scum to vote outside of the wagon built on you in MElo. Only a Townie convinced of their own righteousness would do such a thing. That’s what I’m saying.

And my argument is that both the game state and Scorpious’ early tone are making me think that they’re Town. Not to mention that I don’t trust fua for shit, and they’re on the wagon too.

Isn't it suboptimal for town too, though? like it's bad play regardless of alignment.

Point taken on fua I guess

I haven’t really played the game right, no one TRs me, I don’t have any influence, and I haven’t even finished reading every post. Do you think I would try and stick my neck out for a Partner on the brink, or do you think I’m more likely to try and continue the pattern so far of not saying much, laying low, and perhaps hope that a Town member screws up and votes amongst those that have votes out and are Town? I guess you won’t know for sure until after the game is over, but my guess is that I would have hard bussed and try and get some credibility by making some sort of credible argument against Scorpious.

I mean the question is: do you actually think bussing scorpious now would actually give you any credit in a situation where you're scum with him, when other people have been beating the drum for him being scum for a much longer time, and are generally more townread than you?

Probably better than hard defending them and when they inevitably flip (which I’m almost sure they will here anyway) I go down immediately after.

*shrug* I've seen a lot crazy stuff and I rule nothing out, hypothetically if you're mafia who is likely to get POE'd out for being inactive all game your best bet is inducing paranoia among people

[Retti]

Can you go into why you think fua is scummy beyond "posts sound bad"?

[Retti]

Yeah I mean not willing to commit to any Scum Reads when at the brink and people are asking for your contributions seems relatively silly, and not something Scum tend to do btw. This is the sort of thing people argue that I never understand.

IME this is the exact opposite so I feel like we're not going to see eye to eye here.

Anyway, this is my perception of the situation. I just want people to at least consider what could be happening here. I still very much expect Scorpious to get executed and we’ll see if the game doesn’t end right then and there.

I mean, I'm trying to give everyone a fair shake here, else I'd have just voted. I find scorpious scummy but I was still willing to hear him out to try to get his perspective, he just seemed barely willing to actually give it.

Can you go into why you think fua is scummy beyond "posts sound bad"?

They’re argument against me in the early part of today was a total discredit based on the fact that I posted several times that I would catch up and have not totally done it. But where are the highlights about me questioning the wagon on T3 (saying that I thought it was unlikely that Scum was questioning the Doctor claim), or defending DW? Nowhere right? That’s what’s called cherry-picking, and it was clearly done to sideline me when they can taste victory. Yeah I argued against Azaariah, which is what Andante did immediately after me with a long-ass post and a vote and they were obviously Town too. So we have all screwed up. But there was no balance there. It’s not like I haven’t posted at all. But they were happy to discredit me and not really try and consider my alignment. Interesting right?

Well, my impression of you prior to today was more or less similar to that, that you were skating by making promises to do things later and not really delivering, so I can't really fault fua for saying the same. I'm still trying to review, it's just...slow

[Retti]

Btw Retti, everybody’s voting is suspect. We haven’t executed Scum, and we haven’t as far as I can tell as much as built a counter wagon on them. The largest three wagons D1 were all Town. So that’s a bad argument if I’ve ever seen one.

That is really misconstruing the point I'm trying to make - it's the fact that scopious's votes look opportunistic and he wasn't really trying to solve people outside of that, just showing up to vote when there was a wagon. It's a matter of the timing of the votes + how much he seemed to actually believe in those scumreads.

I guess by the same measure fua is equally opportunistic, looking at the VCs but

from memory

their pushing on uglyduck felt like it had genuine conviction to it where Scorpious didn't (and yes this is subject to me actually rereading)

(also I had aza as town but no one actually listened to me on that, yes I'm still annoyed)

[Retti]

T3(4) ~ Retti(101), the worst(81), fua(80), Dwlee99(162)
Dwlee99(4) ~ Oman(39), Natalya(88), Azaariah(38), T3(47)
Azaariah(4) ~ UglyDuck(31), Gamma Emerald(23), Andresvmb(18), Andante(142)
UglyDuck(1) ~ Scorpious(89)

How wonderful is this? Who could you possibly argue looks good from the votes exactly? T3, Azaariah and UglyDuck are all Town and DW is Confirmed Town. The argument that Scorpious’ voting history is suspect reeks of bad faith to me.

I'm rather annoyed you're taking it this way but the point is not about right and wrong it's about whether he was making the votes because he actually believed in them or because they were convenient wagons. I don't think if you're arguing in good faith here that it should be hard to understand why I am saying that.

[Retti]

fua’s vote on Azaariah was horribly opportunistic and had crappy reasoning. I fail to see how you can be so certain that between the two, Scorpious is surely the person that needs to get executed here.

I did not say I am, jesus christ

If I was certain I'd be voting

[Retti]

Frustratingly, this is making me think you could be town because it's reminding me of how frantic I got the last time I was in ELO, it's just that you keep jumping to conclusions based on the stuff I say that is not at all what I'm intending and it's very annoying

[Retti]

I've been saying I'm not committed or I'd be voting him but you keep acting like I'm dead certain. I'm trying to hear you out here.

[Retti]

I've been saying: I want to reset and review everyone. I looked at him first because he's being voted and so I needed to decide how I felt about him. Came away thinking he was scummy. I still have 5 other players I need to evaluate. I'm not voting until then.

[Retti]

(I also think saying I'd be town if Scorpious is mafia is kind of superficial but I'm not going to scumcase myself, just saying that's weak process)

[Retti]

Even night gunsmith, enchant doesn't have a gun

checked because I figured he was never dying after the hammer yesterday and I don't cop scumreads

[Retti]

andres and galron are mafia together, the immediate backing up of the claim is obvious

[Retti]

Like i didn't understand who had innocent result

Gamma had a result that said t3 either couldn't kill or had killed N1, and then voted t3 daystart (assuming galron town)

Do you think this is like an actual Scum slip? I really do think it’s way too in your face.

Here's what actually happened: he made a claim without actually checking to see if it made sense and you immediately moved to cover his ass for it

[Retti]

galron/andres/scorp

that easy

[Retti]

Don't think I need to explain why gunsmith makes obvious sense with rolecop/vig

[Retti]

A Psychologist in the hands of the Scum could be to help identify a Vigilante, but it’s a bit useless otherwise (and frankly, why? It’s a bit of a crappy role for Scum). The Detective? Also could be aimed at that in the hands of the Scum I guess, but at that point not only is it obvious there’s a Vigilante, they’ve probably claimed. It doesn’t seem all that useful, and then why claim it? It almost seems like the sort of role the Town would have in a game with a Vigilante.

Dude this is completely laughable and contrived reasoning - "he said he's those things so he must be real!"

[Retti]

there's no way town immediately blindly accepts a claim like that, the lack of critical thinking is obvious and can only come from having a preplanned agenda around it

[Retti]

Retti doesn’t cop their Scum Reads? What kind of garbage statement is that?! So you don’t want to draw guilties, or save the Town from a misexecution?! If that’s actually how you play btw, stop doing that.

I cop null reads, this is not a remotely uncommon strategy

I don't target my scum reads because I'd rather just yeet them and not bother checking them

worst was in the uncomfortable zone where I thought he was decent but not enough to clear as town, enchant had said basically nothing and quickhammered, if he was town there was a high probability he could get misyeeted for it, I figured it was a good check


obviously I didn't KNOW we'd be going into MYLO today (yes gunsmith sometimes implies vig but not always)

[Retti]

A Psychologist in the hands of the Scum could be to help identify a Vigilante, but it’s a bit useless otherwise (and frankly, why? It’s a bit of a crappy role for Scum). The Detective? Also could be aimed at that in the hands of the Scum I guess, but at that point not only is it obvious there’s a Vigilante, they’ve probably claimed. It doesn’t seem all that useful, and then why claim it? It almost seems like the sort of role the Town would have in a game with a Vigilante.

Dude this is completely laughable and contrived reasoning - "he said he's those things so he must be real!"

T3 and Natalya are good checks. Enchant is not. Not sure why that’s hard to understand.

Natalya is a nonsensically dumb check actually

[Retti]

Let's find out if he's scum then.

VOTE: scorpious

This is basically a Scum claim.

If I had to take a guess, I would say this game is lost. Scorpious is Town, and is probably going to get executed because it’s the easy thing to do. Retti and fua are probably aligned as Scum, and I doubt Galron is Scum (probably just doesn’t care).

Lmao

[Retti]

Not the point he was making but w/e

[Retti]

I had the worst as town leaning not a town read and said nothing about enchant because he made 2 posts and hammered

[Retti]

VOTE: Galron

I think there's basically no chance there's 3 town investigative PRs in the same setup

[Retti]

Let's find out if he's scum then.

VOTE: scorpious

This is basically a Scum claim.

If I had to take a guess, I would say this game is lost. Scorpious is Town, and is probably going to get executed because it’s the easy thing to do. Retti and fua are probably aligned as Scum, and I doubt Galron is Scum (probably just doesn’t care).

Lmao

So I can’t change my mind after further thinking about something? You just have to say Lmao but you haven’t questioned this until now? Why? It’s been out there for a while.

I didn't notice it until I was looking back because I went to quote your nonsense defense of Galron and that was the first mention that came up in the search, and no I don't think that arbitrary shift makes sense just because it was a couple of days in between, "probably just doesn't care" is so charitable you could practically buy him a house with it

[Retti]

VOTE: Galron

I think there's basically no chance there's 3 town investigative PRs in the same setup

So you think Galron is bussing Scorpious yeah? That’s basically what you’re concluding? So Galron decided to bus Scorpious with very little reasoning put out there, and I as the third member of the Team decided to hard defend Scorpious? So I go down as totally incompetent since my Partner is selling out the Partner I’m hard defending, in an attempt to set up who, Galron to win the game? Are you serious?

That was my initial thought

though it occurs to me that maybe you were performatively distancing from the scorpious wagon in the hope it'd go through, because no one had any reason to trust you anyway

In which case maybe it's fua instead of scorpious or something, idk

[Retti]

If Scorpious is Town and I’m Scum, I stay the fuck quiet. You’re supposedly Town and you’re shading Scorpious in alignment with fua and I do my very best to stop the wagon instead of just wait to win?! Never in a million fucking years unless I’m a total moron.

Dude I know how reverse psychology works I'm not an idiot

[Retti]

VOTE: Galron

I think there's basically no chance there's 3 town investigative PRs in the same setup

So you think Galron is bussing Scorpious yeah? That’s basically what you’re concluding? So Galron decided to bus Scorpious with very little reasoning put out there, and I as the third member of the Team decided to hard defend Scorpious? So I go down as totally incompetent since my Partner is selling out the Partner I’m hard defending, in an attempt to set up who, Galron to win the game? Are you serious?

That was my initial thought

though it occurs to me that maybe you were performatively distancing from the scorpious wagon in the hope it'd go through, because no one had any reason to trust you anyway

In which case maybe it's fua instead of scorpious or something, idk

Absurd. I am distancing from the wagon that WINS THE GAME FOR SCUM?! What kind of an idiot do you think I am?

That’s actually a good point. Retti’s claim seems especially weird to me because there most likely won’t be a N4 to begin with. Why not put that out there at the start of the phase to narrow things down?

Because you don't claim out of turn in a mass claim

[Retti]

Love having to constantly fend off accusations from people who are apparently totally unaware of how basic procedure in a game goes

[Retti]

Also, why are you putting that criticism exclusively toward me, and not toward Galron, fua? would've had just as much reason to out by your own terms but you have literally said nothing about his claim at all?

[Retti]

Natalya do you think there is at least one scum in galron/retti

FWIW it's going to be confirmed that there's one in me/galron/scorpious

so

[Retti]

ok you might yell at me for being a fucking moron

but check out this read:

Fua/Retti are scum because they haven't lost their fucking minds yet over how bad this town is playing

The last time I was in this situation I ragequit the game without talking to my hydra partner first and it was incredibly shameful and embarrassing and I have no desire to repeat that

[Retti]

Also, why are you putting that criticism exclusively toward me, and not toward Galron, fua? would've had just as much reason to out by your own terms but you have literally said nothing about his claim at all?

I agree with what Natalya has said about Galron, I’m just not pushing it because I think making posts just to echo another person and say ‘I agree’ is kind of lame. I don’t have anything new to say on the subject.

That sounds like a lot of bullshit. Why the fuck would you not care about making your opinion known on MELO? You're being selective in who you choose to vocalize opinions about

[Retti]

also somehow everyone else is /roll over i wanna die not trying at all I'll just sheep dwlee and that makes me scum because ???

Galron has given literally no indications he gives a fuck about this game, subbed in and voted without reading up and then ignored the game for 2 days while actively posting in other games. With his vote down. and this is somehow seen as credible by multiple people and you can't all be scum

[Retti]

I was about to type out a very mean verily nastily worded reply and then I thought better of it

You see I have this big fucking problem where when I think someone is town and reading me wrong I rage and bitch them out. But that's a bad way to play because beyond the obvious fact of no one liking being raged at, it just makes people double down harder on their view when they're town and if that happens you lose the game. And so I am trying to show some measure of self-improvement here by actually talking to people and trying to work through their reasoning rather than just pitching a fit. Because believe it or not I still actually want to try to win the game and care enough to try. It is incredibly easy to lean into the performative wailing and gnashing of teeth and that strikes me as a very faulty way of reading people, give it's significantly easier to fake emotions than to fake actual reasoning (and if you believe I'm incapable of fake-raging as scum, uh, my past track record speaks differently)

[Retti]

I think I’m going to feel bad if we don’t execute Galron after potentially the worst claim in history, but if Retti is Scum I’m also going to be annoyed. There’s no winning here.

brave

[Retti]

now I actually do want to rage out so I'm going to step away before that happens

[Retti]

Also, why are you putting that criticism exclusively toward me, and not toward Galron, fua? would've had just as much reason to out by your own terms but you have literally said nothing about his claim at all?

I agree with what Natalya has said about Galron, I’m just not pushing it because I think making posts just to echo another person and say ‘I agree’ is kind of lame. I don’t have anything new to say on the subject.

That sounds like a lot of bullshit. Why the fuck would you not care about making your opinion known on MELO? You're being selective in who you choose to vocalize opinions about

Okay. My opinion is that both you and Galron are full of crap and there was only one investigative in this game.

why the fuck would I CC my own partner

[Retti]

I don't know how more apparent it can get that I'm completely on and island this game

[Retti]

me 5 minutes ago: I'm not going to get mad, it's not like people are going to post the stupidest fucking arguments I've ever heard

[Retti]

are you shitting me

[Retti]

What a troll setup

[Retti]

LMAO oh my god dwlee you absolute legend

[Retti]

I am stunned, did not deserve this at all, was practically writing an apology for playing like shit

[Retti]

It's just scorp/natalya yeah? was a coordinated quickhammer

[Retti]

VOTE: natalya

let's just go, game's solved

[Retti]

I am so so sorry

[Retti]

feel like I got away with armed robbery, I was resigned to losing that one

[Retti]

I was screaming repeatedly in the scum PT that dwlee was baiting though and it got totally ignored

[Retti]

Yeah I kind of would have assumed fua's flip was damning for me tbh

[Retti]

pooky please calm down

[Retti]

Alright that’s enough. This is crossing the line. I made an error and I apologize. I clearly screwed up and will not be playing around here anymore.

I'm sorry andres

for what it's worth I like you as a player which I know probably isn't great to hear atm but I would feel sad if you leftover making a mistake in a game