Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[Roden]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Roden]

Koopa's gonna be hard to read

[Roden]

okay, i'm slipping into old habits.

I would like to announce that I'll be imposing post limits for me. I wanna train a lurky/wall-ey posting style. Wish me luck.

This is townie but idk why you're imposing anything on yourself

[Roden]

Spiritual vote on Malakittens

Malashell

I don't like being shipped with random ppl i don't know.

sorrynotsorry.

i also think malakittens is addressing JV as if they already know JV is town and is trying to get their trust. that's a very weak read tho, and it seems like there's background there.

I have played with JV twice so far; both times I have been scum. So there's the potential that he might vote me right off the bat which is fair considering that I been scum twice so far now against him.

This feels very self conscious.

VOTE: Malakittens

[Roden]

Your first post was also very self conscious though

[Roden]

I don't see the correlation between self consciousness and wolfiness, unless you are saying Mala is normally *not* self conscious as villager.
Is that something you have seen success with using to read people on this site, Roden?

Idk who's alt you are but this post is skeeving me out for some reason

Last time I played with Mala, she rolled scum, and her day play felt very self conscious there as well, with a pinch of "I don't do X as scum"

[Roden]

Self-consciousness isn't a scumtell IMHO.

I don't know how koopa "reads from the hip" on pages 1-2 and expects to be accurate in any way.

Ehhh, I agree that in a vacuum, being self conscious isn't a scum tell. Same with being defensive. Context and content does matter though.

[Roden]

Self-consciousness isn't a scumtell IMHO.

I don't know how koopa "reads from the hip" on pages 1-2 and expects to be accurate in any way.

It's not, but apparently people think it's cool in order to use it as a scum tell, nor is being aggressive or defensive

but then when you go "its a rl thing"

thats frowned upon too

so lets move the topic along

if we dont want to move this topic along then just lim me now and get it over with

Why are you going full AtE and asking to die on page 4??

[Roden]

I don't see the correlation between self consciousness and wolfiness, unless you are saying Mala is normally *not* self conscious as villager.
Is that something you have seen success with using to read people on this site, Roden?

Idk who's alt you are but this post is skeeving me out for some reason

Last time I played with Mala, she rolled scum, and her day play felt very self conscious there as well, with a pinch of "I don't do X as scum"

I am an alt, in the sense I am not using the name normally associated with my main identity, but I am a stranger to this website.

Re:Mala; Could you say the same is absent from their town meta as well, because you have only opened up the possibility of this being their wolfgame based on this minor tell, but it is only useful if it is a polarized tell.

Last town game she played was very aggressive and solvey. I wouldn't call it night and day, but her playstyle differences are noticeable in hindsight.

[Roden]

Self-consciousness isn't a scumtell IMHO.
I don't know how koopa "reads from the hip" on pages 1-2 and expects to be accurate in any way.

It's not, but apparently people think it's cool in order to use it as a scum tell, nor is being aggressive or defensive

but then when you go "its a rl thing"

thats frowned upon too

so lets move the topic along

if we dont want to move this topic along then just lim me now and get it over with

Why are you going full AtE and asking to die on page 4??

because i'm having flashbacks from when greeting & I went head to head and then got warned by the site mods

I'm just really not in the mood for it again

You were scum there though...?

[Roden]

it's more for getting warned by the mod thing.

I actually enjoy mafia sometimes and i really dont want to be banned

esp

for something so stupid of "oh she's being self conscious" lets vote her!!!

Ok but we're in the RVS stage/trying to leave RVS, there isn't a whole lot to go off of so we're voting for whatever reason makes at least some sense and then seeing how others/the game state reacts. I feel like you've experienced enough to know this.

But to say "just vote me out so I don't get banned" instead of picking literally any other option is just ???

Like, if you're town this just fucks us over because you're essentially just making yourself a policy elim that provides no info upon your flip. Everybody who votes you in this scenario can essentially do it for free because they can just say "she asked to die so I voted for her". Though obviously if you're scum then this is just AtE to get people to back off.

Another layer to this is that, in that game you were scum in that I've been referencing, Toogeloo did the exact same thing you're currently doing, got town read for it, and did end up being town. I feel like that has to be at the back of your mind here, and that you're trying to get town read by emulating that same behavior.

[Roden]

i dont think you're being self-conscious exactly

i think you're trying to get us to townread you earlier by declaring to lim you right there and then — and assuming Roden is with good intentions trying to push you
it tracks with the idea that you wanted JV to townread you — and assuming that the slot is town

Ok HEM basically said what I meant but more concisely.

[Roden]

I’m ready to 1v1 someone who was on a Mala wagon.

Been feeling some scum energy getting pushed into that direction.

Where shall i pounce

Why don't you just do it instead of posturing about it? I've been waiting for you to actually do something like this for a bit now.

I’d rather see how people react to me saying it than do it

Are you asking for volunteers

[Roden]

Somebody made a serious scum read on me but I don't remember who after catching up. Uh whoever it is could you tell me why? I don't think I've made enough content for anyone to have a serious read on me yet.

[Roden]

Leaf you're an absolute whirlwind of scattered thoughts and hot takes lol

Could you link me your most recent scum game and town game?

[Roden]

Flavor did that

i think if you didnt catch it, you should go back and reread again lmao

Was it him? I know Italiano and JV put my name out there too but idk who's seriously pushing it.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Ctrl+F Roden

Roden and Italian are the two that I've sniffed some scum energy on thus far. Too early to tell if that's accurate or not, because at least with Italian I've seen a few townie energy auras coming off of em.

If you really want me to put a way too early readslist, here ya go.

Malakittens
Scorpious
Koopashell
Not Known 15

MalcolmTucker
JacksonVirgo
KittyTacky
humaneatingmonkey

Facebones
Saladman27

ItalianoVD
Roden

No order within tiers. I usually have a Red color on the bottom, and that is not present here. Orange is just lower than neutral in Facebones/Salad. I dont expect to be right this early. Green are people I'm confident at the moment are town, but it's like Page 9, this can easily flip.

Blue are people I haven't seen anything that stood out to me negatively, and didn't mind their tones.

I expect scum to be spreadout throughout the tiers based on what social dynamics and positioning are happening.

Roden being scum actually makes Human scum more likely here as well if Italiano/Koopa are both town.

But I dont have that complex a read on Roden, just early game natural positioning by everyone in relation to where I was.

I'd say I'm more onto Human Red tier, and Italiano blue tier right now, though.

The antenna line also made a Koopa-FL an in game connection, like it was then trying to put us on some type of stage to either be scum read together, or cause a TvS.

Again yeah. Reading that early interaction between you too pinged me. Even though it was sorta RVS, it just didn't seem like anything. And it was more koopa than you.

Yeah, italiano is green now.

This is me green'ing italiano while noting that this is exactly the best way a scum italiano could have gotten out of my scum read on them.

No doubt the Human interaction opened up my perspective on the overall gamestate.

Human/Roden + 2 less active players is my way too early solve.

The catchup nested within spoilers is performative to me,

i was trying to elicit some sort of interaction with italiano, but they stone walled.


Fine, you convinced me.

Human/Italiano/Roden + 1 lesser active player way too early scum prediction, and also all based individually as well.

In that order for me.

Ok this is probably why I didn't remember who scum read me and why. There hasn't been a substantial reason or push given yet even though all roads apparently lead to me.

Leaf, what's up?

[Roden]

Anyway for now my hot take fresh off the press…

Scum team: koopa, Roden, Scorpious.

Honestly if I wasn’t leaning toward Flavor Leaf being town I’d think he and koopa were partners.

I think Mala is the LHF for today.

Well off to bed y’all everyone have a great night!

What happened here?

[Roden]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Roden]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This is probably coming from town who hasn't learned how to look past getting POE scum read as a personal thing.

I'm not invested enough in this game to care that you scum read me.

What does matter is that you kept trying to tie me in to multiple solves, never explained why, then backed off when nobody bit and you got confronted on it.

[Roden]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This is probably coming from town who hasn't learned how to look past getting POE scum read as a personal thing.

I'm not invested enough in this game to care that you scum read me.

What does matter is that you kept trying to tie me in to multiple solves, never explained why, then backed off when nobody bit and you got confronted on it.

Nah, you just have a misinterpreted view on an older version of the gamestate

Because you specifically ignore the fact that even in those posts, I actively stated “i don’t expect it to be correct”

Yeah I don't care if it's old info or if you didn't even think it was a correct read.

I'm asking you why you made that read and what changed it. Why did you push that so hard for so long if you didn't really believe in it. Because as it is, it looks like you just backed off when no one bit and you got confronted on it.

If I'm misinterpreting you then consider this an invitation to correct me. Otherwise you're just choosing to be aggressively dismissive and avoiding having to justify your reads. Like you're just going out of your way to make yourself harder to read and then complaining that no one is reading you correctly. I don't know what you expect tbh.

[Roden]

I do have a suggestion that we should stop focusing on FL, myself, and monkey. I'm going to probably tone down my posting massively. I want other slots discussed because this is choking the gamestate.

I’d like it to be noticed that once this happened, and yet again it was about to diffuse that both Roden and HEM popped in and made a comment to keep the momentum going.


I am not wrong that there is scum energy in that bubble.

Here’s the thing, Koopa, yes, I push slots you see as town as scum, but I’m actively aware that it’s likely not all scum, meaning that in theory, our reads do line up more underneath the surface, if that makes sense.

This is also very +scum. You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return. You're just framing any one who tries to respond or challenge you as scum trying to displace momentum.

The issue is that if you actually cared about momentum, you would just cut any attempts to manipulate momentum short by answering what have been fairly easy questions. I'm just looking to see what's going on in your head but you're refusing to let anyone peek, instead you're shading anyone who tries to understand you.

Town has no reason to do that, but scum does.

[Roden]

You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return.

Does anybody here truly believe that I dont want any confrontation?

Have you or have you not been dismissive of everyone who has been confrontational with you?

[Roden]

I'm just looking to see what's going on in your head but you're refusing to let anyone peek, instead you're shading anyone who tries to understand you.

what do you mean I'm refusing to let anyone peek? I feel my thoughts are essentially out there on almost every slot in the game. If anything, I'm giving more than the majority of the players in this game.

My read on you at the time was just that insignificant. Now you just wanted to make more out of it.

This is actually false. You've posted quite a bit and have given plenty of reads, but you've done very little to actually explain them. Many of your reads are shallow and have vague justifications like "I sense a scum bubble with X players" or "I think scum is shifting momentum". Like none of that actually tells us anything.

I don't believe that your read on me was meant to be insignificant. You made a point of trying to get people to latch onto it while you argued with HEM. But nobody followed your PoE solve and now you want to act like it can't be used to try to read or solve you.

[Roden]

You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return.

Does anybody here truly believe that I dont want any confrontation?

Have you or have you not been dismissive of everyone who has been confrontational with you?

Idk if I’ve dismissed my confrontation with you, i feel I’ve been responding right back.

I’m just a slick, smooth talker.

Responding =/= engagement

By responding but choosing not to engage with what's being said, you're being dismissive and discrediting arguments against you without explaining how any of us are wrong.

[Roden]

Lol at you still trying to act like I said that Poe solve with you in it even though I said “this is most likely incorrect”

You're just not reading if you genuinely think this is my beef with your posts

You’re gonna hear and see what you wanna at this point.

You’re pushing a “this is what town should do” vs a “this is what town actually do” kinda mentality and scum reading for the ladder because you don’t have anything else to go on.

"I'm not dismissive"

Immediately dismisses me

Ok

[Roden]

I dont think semantic disagreements is going to be useful in sorting FL. Instead of being upset in how they are playing, ask yourselves: is this player an informed party? Is what they are doing reasonable from the point of view of being aware of the wolf team?

I see a lot of playstyle/personaliry clashing going on right now and that isn't useful.

???

I understand that Leaf wants to paint it that way so it just looks like a shit fight/personality clash (no other way to explain him explicitly trying to goad me into a fight), but I don't feel any certain way about him personally. I made that clear at the beginning when he responded to my initial posts with aggression, and I informed I wasn't invested enough in the game to get mad about getting scum read.

If anything, you need to ask yourself how you got into the mind frame of "oh this looks like a personality clash" in the first place. Because all I did was ask Leaf to explain a read, and somehow he managed to get away with not answering and instead frame the situation as me just being emotional/getting tilted. It's a subtle manipulation of how you're perceiving what just happened.

[Roden]

And tbh anyone who's played with me before would know how easy it is to tilt me and what it looks like when I'm tilted. This ain't it lol.

[Roden]

Roden - have you caught wolf FL before?

No and as far as I know I haven't played with him before period. I don't see how that's relevant though.

[Roden]

I dont think semantic disagreements is going to be useful in sorting FL. Instead of being upset in how they are playing, ask yourselves: is this player an informed party? Is what they are doing reasonable from the point of view of being aware of the wolf team?

I see a lot of playstyle/personaliry clashing going on right now and that isn't useful.

it's only being made semantic by FL. pay attention.

Again, you are wrong. It is directly pulled from Roden's posts that the semantics are there.

Roden doesnt believe that I've answered them, but I've gone back and forth left and right talking about the read, they just dont see the answer, which i can see coming from town considering theyre the type to overreact personally to being scum read no matter how small.

Also, them calling out one dismissal as if it were happening everywhere and nothing but, which again, is factually not true.

my initial posts with aggression

i dont believe I have had a single instance of aggression this game

sarcasm and dry posts, sure, no aggression

If someone else wants an answer to these posts then I'll give it then. Otherwise I don't see the point in trying to convince you that you're scum.

[Roden]

And I also want you to tell me how you feel about Scorpious

They barely have any content, so it's hard to have any kind of feeling towards them. I do think activity is alignment indicative for them though.

[Roden]

Roden
I'm going to be brutally honest for a second: I don't care nor does that make them wolf. If they are wolf, they *want* the attention on them - so you're giving them what they want. I want to look at other slots thank you.

Leaf seems to be implying the opposite.

We can have multiple discussions. If you hate the heat on Leaf so much then ignore it and appeal to players who also don't care.

Now. Scorpious read please.

Wolves are literally laughing at us going in circles right now. Snap out of it and see the bigger picture and notice players who have gone under the radar.

Ngl I think your case on Scorpius is weak and that pushing a low content slot early in Day 1 is not a good idea. I really don't know what you hope to accomplish by shutting down actual content to focus on a non-factor slot when we're going to have plenty of time to do so later.

[Roden]

Just checked the timer and we still have an entire week to go. Just chill and let people push and prod naturally instead of chainsawing our efforts to case anyone who isn't your current top priority. If we near EoD and somehow nobody has had anything to say about Scorpius and they're still not playing, then yeah let's hard pressure them because the game state would imply they're just scum at that point.

[Roden]

Of course it's fucking "weak". They aren't playing the game, Roden. Wolves literally default to low/mid posting and you're obsessed with the most active slot in the game.

There is no "obsession", I asked one question.

Just because scum defaults to low/mid activity doesn't mean all low activity posters are inherently scummy. I lurk a lot Day 1 no matter my alignment. Low posters are usually just LHF in general.

In that same regard, high activity/effort =/= town. If that were true, the meta would revolve around high activity/effort, and maybe on some sites it does. But here it doesn't mean much outside of the newbie queue.

And, again, the game is still barely just starting. There is time to push cases and for low posters to start playing.

[Roden]

VOTE: Malakittens

[Roden]

And I also want you to tell me how you feel about Scorpious

They barely have any content, so it's hard to have any kind of feeling towards them. I do think activity is alignment indicative for them though.

So then you

do

know how to feel about them.

Just checked the timer and we still have an entire week to go. Just chill and let people push and prod naturally instead of chainsawing our efforts to case anyone who isn't your current top priority. If we near EoD and somehow nobody has had anything to say about Scorpius and they're still not playing, then yeah let's hard pressure them because the game state would imply they're just scum at that point.

But you already said activity is alignment indicative for them so the lack thereof should signify scum even right now right? Also how full proof is that strategy for you?

This is a weird post. I said alignment indicative, not scum indicative. Why did you assume scum indicative?

[Roden]

And I also want you to tell me how you feel about Scorpious

They barely have any content, so it's hard to have any kind of feeling towards them. I do think activity is alignment indicative for them though.

So then you

do

know how to feel about them.

Just checked the timer and we still have an entire week to go. Just chill and let people push and prod naturally instead of chainsawing our efforts to case anyone who isn't your current top priority. If we near EoD and somehow nobody has had anything to say about Scorpius and they're still not playing, then yeah let's hard pressure them because the game state would imply they're just scum at that point.

But you already said activity is alignment indicative for them so the lack thereof should signify scum even right now right? Also how full proof is that strategy for you?

I didn't particularly like Roden's reaction to FL and I thought their argument Flavor wasn't really being clear with their reads felt very off given the state of the game so far. But I'm not sure mafia Roden has any way to react the way they did - the push was long past and it felt like essentially picking a fight which suddenly put them in contention again as possible mafia. If you're mafia, best just to ignore and move on from that I think.

I'm actually starting to come back around to ScumRoden. I do think they had reason to do so because it was actively helping fuel the Flavor Leaf wagon, and it was attempting to bring me down into the overall gamestate feel as scum to people.

Human I can see in a very similar vain as it was when I pushed you last game, so I see a town world with them.

And NK15 was also pushing me because of the same thing Roden was, so it feels kind of like Roden piggybacked onto NK15's push to keep the momentum going.

VOTE: Roden

Is that a good enough reason for you, Roden?

This post is just a spectacle lol.

Yes Leaf, this is definitely a Vote with a Reason.

[Roden]

I don't think any push on me has been reasonable at all.

I think you need to stop being so hung up on people pushing you and instead try to engage with your scum reads. Otherwise if you're town you're likely to start second guessing yourself.

[Roden]

Yet again, just because you dont like the reason, doesnt mean it's not a reason.

Feels like scum who doesnt think they should be getting wagon'd.

Italiano thinks youre scummy, and Koopa had you 2nd to the lowest, yet you're still just trying to discredit me.

Leaf I'm not going to engage with you if you keep intentionally trying to goad me.

[Roden]

I do feel like it's quite inconsistent that Roden has gone in on FL for changing their read on them but not other players who have done similar at other points in the game. Koopa did this once or twice before their role claim. NK had Mala down as "obvious" scum early on but then completely backpedalled on the basis of one missed post that I personally don't think changed a lot. Why solely the focus on the player who suspected them?

This is actually my biggest issue with Leaf and why I think he's scum. The narrative got switched around to me being mad I got scum read and that I scum read him for changing his read. But that was never the case, and it's pretty clear that was never the case if you just look at my original post that was directed at him in context.

[Roden]

okay, i'm slipping into old habits.

I would like to announce that I'll be imposing post limits for me. I wanna train a lurky/wall-ey posting style. Wish me luck.

This is townie but idk why you're imposing anything on yourself

Spiritual vote on Malakittens

Malashell

I don't like being shipped with random ppl i don't know.

sorrynotsorry.

i also think malakittens is addressing JV as if they already know JV is town and is trying to get their trust. that's a very weak read tho, and it seems like there's background there.

I have played with JV twice so far; both times I have been scum. So there's the potential that he might vote me right off the bat which is fair considering that I been scum twice so far now against him.

This feels very self conscious.

VOTE: Malakittens

i dont think you're being self-conscious exactly

i think you're trying to get us to townread you earlier by declaring to lim you right there and then — and assuming Roden is with good intentions trying to push you
it tracks with the idea that you wanted JV to townread you — and assuming that the slot is town

Ok HEM basically said what I meant but more concisely.

Roden did seem to agree with HEM a lot very early on and was more than happy to give a TR for something I don't think was particularly alignment indicative.

For Roden directly - given HEM initially suggested they'd employ a more lurky posting style, and given you felt like this was town, do you find it suspicious at all that they've not ended up following through on that?

I don't think it's particularly indicative for either HEM or Flavor who initially wanted to sit back a bit before very much taking over as the main town voice, but it was clearly of some importance to you.

I think HEM has been lurky compared to his past games so I don't find it particularly suspicious. We have similar reads so I don't see much of a reason to distrust him.

Also I get why people are forming associative reads around the two of us, it's probably the most straightforward read you can make to assume two people with similar reads and positioning are potential buddies. It's a bad take though to assume either one of us would be bold enough to openly associate with each other but not bold enough to try to power wolf and force wagons through. You can look through my scum meta as well if you want to see if openly buddying a partner is something I'm liable to do.

[Roden]

Yet again, just because you dont like the reason, doesnt mean it's not a reason.

Feels like scum who doesnt think they should be getting wagon'd.

Italiano thinks youre scummy, and Koopa had you 2nd to the lowest, yet you're still just trying to discredit me.

Leaf I'm not going to engage with you if you keep intentionally trying to goad me.

Are you really being goaded in a way that's particularly bad here? This feels like a pretty standard interaction.

I feel like you haven't read our interactions as a whole if that's your take away.

[Roden]

Let's wagon Kitty.

I'd probably be more willing to do so if there wasn't so much resistance to a Mala wagon every time it cropped up while she lurks out the pressure.

[Roden]

I do feel like it's quite inconsistent that Roden has gone in on FL for changing their read on them but not other players who have done similar at other points in the game. Koopa did this once or twice before their role claim. NK had Mala down as "obvious" scum early on but then completely backpedalled on the basis of one missed post that I personally don't think changed a lot. Why solely the focus on the player who suspected them?

This is actually my biggest issue with Leaf and why I think he's scum. The narrative got switched around to me being mad I got scum read and that I scum read him for changing his read. But that was never the case, and it's pretty clear that was never the case if you just look at my original post that was directed at him in context.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise but I'm really not sure that Flavor's switch-up on their read of you was particularly out of the norm - as I say it happens in every game and it's happened with other players. I'm still hesitant to SR you fully though because if you're mafia, like I said before, I'm not sure you'd have pushed back at Flavor on this considering it's put you under more pressure than you otherwise would have been now.

You're...seriously just not listening...

[Roden]

HEM why do you want everyone who suspects you to case you?

[Roden]

Anyone who suspects me is wrong. I want to know if theyre wrong for a reason or just bullshitting.

Did you really have to ask that like it isnt obvious

No I actually agree with this reasoning, I just feel like I'm going fucking crazy for doubting that this would be the obvious answer.

[Roden]

Anyone who suspects me is wrong. I want to know if theyre wrong for a reason or just bullshitting.

Did you really have to ask that like it isnt obvious

No I actually agree with this reasoning, I just feel like I'm going fucking crazy for doubting that this would be the obvious answer.

Not sure I follow. The answer to me is not obvious.

Some people react differently to pushes.

I think that townies generally want to know/try to gauge if someone's read on them is genuine or fabricated. Idk how much you've caught up on in the thread so far, but I've had a lot of pushback on this line of thought and I don't understand why.

The narrative got changed to "I'm mad emotional and egotistical" somehow and nobody seems to think this blatant manipulation is scummy.

Roden has been playing with me for a while now I dont know why they had to ask that.

Because I'm trying to ground myself and I trust your responses right now.

[Roden]

Koopa is the towniest town who ever towned and I think the wagon on them is very sus.

I don't really understand why people are voting a claimed PR or what they hope to achieve by making them a competing wagon.

[Roden]

Anyone who suspects me is wrong. I want to know if theyre wrong for a reason or just bullshitting.

Did you really have to ask that like it isnt obvious

No I actually agree with this reasoning, I just feel like I'm going fucking crazy for doubting that this would be the obvious answer.

Not sure I follow. The answer to me is not obvious.

Some people react differently to pushes.

I think that townies generally want to know/try to gauge if someone's read on them is genuine or fabricated. Idk how much you've caught up on in the thread so far, but I've had a lot of pushback on this line of thought and I don't understand why.

The narrative got changed to "I'm mad emotional and egotistical" somehow and nobody seems to think this blatant manipulation is scummy.

Roden has been playing with me for a while now I dont know why they had to ask that.

Because I'm trying to ground myself and I trust your responses right now.

I am caught up to the last post I quoted. I use it as a save spot of sorts so I can ISO myself and find it.

I don’t see anyone calling you mad/emotional. I know for sure I am not, I am just confused.

I agree Townies want to do this, but that doesn’t make it the obvious answer.

For example, if I was asked why I did something I’d have a response matching that situation, not something generic.

...Really? You caught up on everything and didn't see posts like these?

Spoiler:

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This is probably coming from town who hasn't learned how to look past getting POE scum read as a personal thing.

I dont think semantic disagreements is going to be useful in sorting FL. Instead of being upset in how they are playing, ask yourselves: is this player an informed party? Is what they are doing reasonable from the point of view of being aware of the wolf team?

I see a lot of playstyle/personaliry clashing going on right now and that isn't useful.

I disagree that Roden vs FL hasn't been useful.

I think there's actually a lot to read Roden and myself from it, including looking at how Roden's thought process is working from it.

Like are they being purposefully obtuse with their push and careful wording or are they just in a tunnel based on seeing what they feel were negative reads on them and not knowing how to take a slight lean scum read early in the game personally.

This doesnt have to be answered immediately, but the question posed is actively useful in the game.

Of course it's fucking "weak". They aren't playing the game, Roden. Wolves literally default to low/mid posting and you're obsessed with the most active slot in the game.

[Roden]

he said he hasnt caught up

I took it literally when he said he caught up to the last post he quoted since it was somewhere in the thousands.

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

If this is the post he's referring to then I'm confused. It doesn't make any sense to say "I don't see anyone calling you mad/emotional" if he's only on page 5 out of 46.

[Roden]

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

I am caught up to here.

Which you’d know if you weren’t being extremely hyper literal.

I quote posts with my thoughts as I go along. You’ve seen me replace in and know this is my usual routine.

*stares*

Are you scum?

What? Why would being literal minded make me scum?

he said he hasnt caught up

I took it literally when he said he caught up to the last post he quoted since it was somewhere in the thousands.

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

If this is the post he's referring to then I'm confused. It doesn't make any sense to say "I don't see anyone calling you mad/emotional" if he's only on page 5 out of 46.

That’s also not what I said. I said

I

am not calling you that.

I don’t see anyone calling you mad/emotional. I know for sure I am not, I am just confused.

[Roden]

Like you can argue mudslinging if you want it does make you look bad as you do look bad to me but anyone can go back and review the game.

You were a lurker and were shot for it.

Here you’re not.

My question is why and instead of an explanation I get a vote.

NK15 wasn't lurking in that game. They actually posted quite a bit, they just naturally have a scummy tone regardless of alignment and they were part of the PoE.

[Roden]

This game is so draining to read

[Roden]

This game is so draining to read

Can you take a look at my case on FL + Mala scum together?

From your POV - FL did the same to you - take a look at how you pushed Mala and how FL treated you, since you have a green check on yourself and all.
I believe this is a pair.

My apologies for contributing to the drainingness of the content - I do want to try to focus on what's important.

Yeah I scum read both. I don't think anything about your case is particularly off. Leaf insisting that he's getting pocketed is weird and doesn't make any sense to me, Mala and Leafhave barely interacted with each other enough for that to happen.

koopa prob town

I gotta agree

although there's posts I don't like, but overall it's got a tone feel

so gut says town

Roden - have you caught wolf FL before?

Nobody in this game has caught me as scum on site before. JacksonVirgo 'might' have, and they have seen me as scum and scum read me correctly before, but idk if they 'caught' me. I mightve won all those games.

Malakittens I met in person in 2014 at a meetup, so she might've caught me as scum.

I haven't played much with many of the others in this game. Scorpious a few here and there, and then NK15 I've played in some of his modded games.

But yeah.

U have definitely changed play styles since my haitus, but I do remember being able to read you transparently

Tbt when we met tho

This is the extent of Mala's interactions with Leaf. If this is enough to pocket him then Leaf's reads shouldn't be trusted in any game ever.

Also my feelings on the game being draining don't come from you, it's from trying to push myself to fairly read Leaf even though he's setting off red flags with everything he posts. His behavior is manipulative, and I recognize his gaslighting techniques from personal experience and can't really see him as town because of it.

[Roden]

humaneatingmonkey [2]: MalcolmTucker [868], Not Known 15 [1337]
Roden [2]: Flavor Leaf [859], ItalianoVD [888]
Not Known 15 [1]: JacksonVirgo [1176]

So look at these 3 wagons from the current VC.

Roden, Humaneatingmonkey, and Not Known 15 are one of those triangles that were pushing the FL steam where we all agree besides those ones that dont that there were scum.


This is actually something that heavily implies scum are on the main wagon. Town are usually more spread out, and we are split pushing in similar directions, but not lined up completely. Scum are more focused and position themselves accordingly, so gamestate likely wants that Mala side dead.

Who is "we" when you say "we all agree"?

[Roden]

How did Mala pocket you, Leaf?

[Roden]

humaneatingmonkey [2]: MalcolmTucker [868], Not Known 15 [1337]
Roden [2]: Flavor Leaf [859], ItalianoVD [888]
Not Known 15 [1]: JacksonVirgo [1176]

So look at these 3 wagons from the current VC.

Roden, Humaneatingmonkey, and Not Known 15 are one of those triangles that were pushing the FL steam where we all agree besides those ones that dont that there were scum.


This is actually something that heavily implies scum are on the main wagon. Town are usually more spread out, and we are split pushing in similar directions, but not lined up completely. Scum are more focused and position themselves accordingly, so gamestate likely wants that Mala side dead.

Who is "we" when you say "we all agree"?

we as in the circle voting the 3

There is no "we all" then, you're referring to three other people out of 13 players. That's just more manipulative wording.

[Roden]

humaneatingmonkey [2]: MalcolmTucker [868], Not Known 15 [1337]
Roden [2]: Flavor Leaf [859], ItalianoVD [888]
Not Known 15 [1]: JacksonVirgo [1176]

So look at these 3 wagons from the current VC.

Roden, Humaneatingmonkey, and Not Known 15 are one of those triangles that were pushing the FL steam where we all agree besides those ones that dont that there were scum.


This is actually something that heavily implies scum are on the main wagon. Town are usually more spread out, and we are split pushing in similar directions, but not lined up completely. Scum are more focused and position themselves accordingly, so gamestate likely wants that Mala side dead.

Who is "we" when you say "we all agree"?

we as in the circle voting the 3

There is no "we all" then, you're referring to three other people out of 13 players. That's just more manipulative wording.

There's 5 of us.

You're...including NK15? A player who in the exact same post you just said was scum?

[Roden]

post 1516, Flavor

You're calling it manipulative, but I'm just trying to rally the crew together.

Kind of a motivational speech.

That's...exactly what I said you did. You're just rebranding it so it sounds less icky.

[Roden]

How did Mala pocket you, Leaf?

[Roden]

Leaf, I'm not going to throw down in the dirt with you or engage in a "no u" back and forth.

How did Mala pocket you?

[Roden]

I'm not asking why you town read her.

I'm asking about what she did to pocket you.

[Roden]

I don't think JV is scum, just indignant. At least as far as how his reads correlate to his alignment, I think being confident in a read is just something he does regardless of the evidence to support it.

[Roden]

I think its a smart conclusion based on how you all 3 mysteriously townread eachother - and mala has thrown a townread at you preemptively.

Do you seriously think you've solved the game this easily and simply on D1? I'm not buying this at all, even if there were mafia in there I'd wager at least one of the read has been pocketed and/or is misreading. Most of us should acknowledge we will inevitably make some early incorrect reads.

Sorry I've misread this - I thought you were claiming all three were definite mafia, not masons.

But anyway Koopa why are you deliberately baiting for masons here? It may be more useful for us to have info out in the open potentially given our stalemate but considering you have all claimed, we should not be forcing mass role reveals at this stage. That's something that should be discussed within the town.

I don't see that as Koopa trying to Mason bait tbh. I interpret it as him saying "you're playing poorly if all three of you are neither Masons nor scum," it's a frustration vent. From his perspective, it doesn't make much sense for JV to try to defend his (Koopa's) scum reads if JV is uninformed.

[Roden]

I'm just not sure what you mean JV

[Roden]

Ehhh...claiming backup unprovoked doesn't really seem like it would come from scum. Though I also don't think you were getting voted out any time soon.

[Roden]

Hey Leaf, if you want to accuse me of something, then don't wait until the context of what I said gets buried. Because you pretty clearly waited until my posts got buried by other content before you tried to scum case me. You're not quoting any of the posts you think are scummy either, you're just recalling them from memory and shifting the narrative around what happened to make yourself look like a victim.

I think your main problem with me is that I'm refusing to let you get under my skin, and that I'm asking you questions that you can't answer.

[Roden]

Why would i want your posts buried, they make you look so scummy

I’m hoping as the game goes on it becomes more obvious

Maybe because we were in the middle of a conversation, and when I asked a question you couldn't answer, you kept dancing around it until you dipped out entirely.

How did Mala pocket you?

I've repeated my reasonings for townreading Mala 3+ times.

I'm not asking why you town read her.

I'm asking about what she did to pocket you.

You never answer this. Instead, your next post is 12 pages later, where you misrep the posts I made without quoting them.

Please, this is actually a really amazing find and reason for the 3 of us to converge into one wagon.

Can we please all pressure towards Roden? I truly think it's the best fade for the day,

Can you possibly case roden again for me, assuming I am super out of the loop cuz I am.

The case on Roden is all of the questions they choose to ask is very off during the time they are doing it, and it's likely because they're trying to put momentum towards me to help shut me down.

Also, Roden piggybacks momentum every time, hiding behind others.

They piggybacked the NK15/Hem pushes, then they piggybacked the Koopa interaction.

They also rephrase words and push things like buzzwords like manipulating into the narrative.

You want my posts buried because you're hoping people get too overwhelmed by all of the hyper posting to actually go back and read what I said. You're accusing me of things that are easily proven false when given context. If you thought my posts actually were scummy, I think it would make sense to quote them so everyone could see them.

[Roden]

Koopa, don't try to 1v1 Leaf. His entire strategy is to rile up anyone who goes against him so that no one will want to listen to them. I know it sucks but if you argue with him, he's going to bait you into hyper posting and it'll discredit your takes on the game.

[Roden]

Roden, I just don't care.

Every single time you come up and discredit is after I had gone and spent hours going back and forth with others.

I'm just so over it, and not even pushing you at this point anymore.

I'm like only half reading your posts because my mental capacity for doing another 1v1 is not there. im not in go back and find things mode.

This is a very convenient mind set to have when asked to follow through with the basics of a scum case.

I didn't ask you to 1v1 a bunch of other players. If you're exhausted then stop spreading yourself thin and acting like you're confident certain players will flip red.

[Roden]

Roden, I just don't care.

Every single time you come up and discredit is after I had gone and spent hours going back and forth with others.

I'm just so over it, and not even pushing you at this point anymore.

I'm like only half reading your posts because my mental capacity for doing another 1v1 is not there. im not in go back and find things mode.

This is a very convenient mind set to have when asked to follow through with the basics of a scum case.

I didn't ask you to 1v1 a bunch of other players. If you're exhausted then stop spreading yourself thin and acting like you're confident certain players will flip red.

i don't mind 1v1'ing players. just do it on my own time.

And I feel like I've repeated my self so many times at this point.

Fucking surface level town you are if you're town. holy shit.

HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS IS FUCKING DAY 1 AND HAVE FUCKING CONFIDENCE WITH ANY FUCKING PLAYER

FUCKING DAY 1

I have actively fucking stated im likely to be wrong with certain solves.

Actively stated i think there is scum in my town reads.

Ignorant af or purposeful getting me riled up scum.

No inbetween.

Why are you so mad? You've consistently said all game that you scum read me and that you're most confident about my slot flipping red over anyone else in the game. Even today, you've been saying this.

Like...you started this game saying that you're intentionally going to troll people to upset them and that you won't answer any questions you don't feel like answering. I don't know how you can possibly try to turn this around on me after saying shit like that.

[Roden]

Roden

and Italian are the two that

I've sniffed some scum energy on

thus far. Too early to tell if that's accurate or not, because at least with Italian I've seen a few townie energy auras coming off of em.

it was more i felt it at the time, then stopped feeling it. the more you talk, the more i actually start to scum read Roden again, though.

Mainly because the more you talk the more I'm getting a feeling you might be town who's just looking at the game in black and white.

I get my reads through direct interaction.

Otherwise it's mainly gamestate reads from the perspective I have at the time I give the read.

Roden was all gamestate reads at the time since I hadn't interacted with them.

Scum manipulate gamestate, so by looking at my past gamestate reads in the future, I can look to see where scum were manipulating things as the days go on.

these 2 posts

Tbh I hadn't caught this. I remembered I was part of the early PoE but thought that was just related to the scum bubble read. But side by side like this, the difference in what kind of reads they were is more obvious.

I think it's more of a glaring inconsistency than a straight up slip though. Regardless, this feels important.

UNVOTE: for now.

[Roden]

I do have a suggestion that we should stop focusing on FL, myself, and monkey. I'm going to probably tone down my posting massively. I want other slots discussed because this is choking the gamestate.

I’d like it to be noticed that once this happened, and yet again it was about to diffuse that both Roden and HEM popped in and made a comment to keep the momentum going.


I am not wrong that there is scum energy in that bubble.

Here’s the thing, Koopa, yes, I push slots you see as town as scum, but I’m actively aware that it’s likely not all scum, meaning that in theory, our reads do line up more underneath the surface, if that makes sense.

This is also very +scum. You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return. You're just framing any one who tries to respond or challenge you as scum trying to displace momentum.

The issue is that if you actually cared about momentum, you would just cut any attempts to manipulate momentum short by answering what have been fairly easy questions. I'm just looking to see what's going on in your head but you're refusing to let anyone peek, instead you're shading anyone who tries to understand you.

Town has no reason to do that, but scum does.

I'm just looking to see what's going on in your head but you're refusing to let anyone peek, instead you're shading anyone who tries to understand you.

what do you mean I'm refusing to let anyone peek? I feel my thoughts are essentially out there on almost every slot in the game. If anything, I'm giving more than the majority of the players in this game.

My read on you at the time was just that insignificant. Now you just wanted to make more out of it.

This is actually false. You've posted quite a bit and have given plenty of reads, but you've done very little to actually explain them. Many of your reads are shallow and have vague justifications like "I sense a scum bubble with X players" or "I think scum is shifting momentum". Like none of that actually tells us anything.

I don't believe that your read on me was meant to be insignificant. You made a point of trying to get people to latch onto it while you argued with HEM. But nobody followed your PoE solve and now you want to act like it can't be used to try to read or solve you.

This was a blatant misrep for me albeit probably one which came from town frustration. Flavor was pretty clear with reads considering they were the most active player in the game at that point and I disagree they'd been particularly vague.

Currently still catching up but this was nowhere near a misrep. Idk how you can even think that when Leaf flat out said he refused to explain his reads and kept using the terms I mentioned in these posts.

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

I know I'm going to get shit for this from non-Roden people but I want to see more from Roden and I feel the threat of elimination is the best way to achieve that right now as shifting Gamma up from the townslip means I have to revisit this slot -> which has been fairly inactive recently and flew under the radar. I was starting to get concerned with the fact he was not helping me with my FL case - considering he was the other biggest pusher of him.

I'm not under the radar. 20 pages just happened in the span of a single D&D session yesterday, and as I try to catch up more and more posts get made.

[Roden]

Did I mention I am also 1-shot Bulletproof :p

I was actually considering claiming that so I dodge the nightkill - but I realized that people might mistake that as a traitor claim so I went against it

Are you fucking kidding me

[Roden]

Koopa's gonna be hard to read

I don't see the correlation between self consciousness and wolfiness, unless you are saying Mala is normally *not* self conscious as villager.
Is that something you have seen success with using to read people on this site, Roden?

Idk who's alt you are but this post is skeeving me out for some reason

Last time I played with Mala, she rolled scum, and her day play felt very self conscious there as well, with a pinch of "I don't do X as scum"

I hate this

[Roden]

Roden why did you drop Mala

I was having doubts when Mala started to actually play since her comeback felt genuinely townie. And Leaf claiming to be pocketed but literally being unable to explain why or how made me think Mala was the actual pocket instead. With that in mind, my gut was telling me that a Mala flip could lead to some chain mis-elims. Even if Leaf is scum, the elim wasn't happening today and I wanted to look for potential buddies instead.

However the Koba reveal is forcing me to hard reset entirely. Literally nothing is out of their scum range, and I need to reevaluate their main points to see if they were genuine or if I was just getting taken along for a ride. I feel like I've been getting heavily encouraged to tunnel Leaf, and despite my own attempts to try to step back I now just have all bad vibes gnawing away in the pit of my stomach.

[Roden]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This is probably coming from town who hasn't learned how to look past getting POE scum read as a personal thing.

I'm not invested enough in this game to care that you scum read me.

What does matter is that you kept trying to tie me in to multiple solves, never explained why, then backed off when nobody bit and you got confronted on it.

why weren’t you invested atp?

It just makes games more enjoyable for me that way. My Day 1/Night 1 survival rate is not great, and it makes dying early less disappointing. Plus I'm less likely to tunnel and get into a dumb argument if I try not to care as much as I usually would.

[Roden]

I kinda think Gamma is town here. I feel like we're tip toeing around each other in a way that's cautious/mindful after our last couple games where we TvT'd. I just think he could easily push me here if he was scum. He's also playing in a way that let's everyone know that he isn't the previous player that was in his slot.

[Roden]

The Scorpius wagon was weird. I felt like there were a lot more requested picks for elimination (HEM, NK15, Kitty, myself), and the momentum was there to vote out any of instead.

I don't like HEM's hammer but I dislike Math's vote even more. It was an opportunistic middle-of-the-wagon vote that tried to poke at Scorpius in a way to get him to overreact while also setting him up to be the leading wagon. It just comes off very tactical instead of solvey.

[Roden]

Also I think this kill confirms that scum don't have a Roleblocker. It would've been easy to get Koopa mis-elim'd by just blocking them every night and letting them cause chaos with their day play. Though maybe they didn't think Koopa was actually all that chaotic, potentially because their reads were actually accurate or someone on the scum team got spooked once they revealed they were Koba all along.

[Roden]

please check Italiano

What prompted this yesterday? And what made you drop this suspicion today?

[Roden]

Also please nobody hammer for at least the next 24 hours. Scum have to play around losing Andres, let's let them do so. Then we can analyze how Day 2 went tomorrow.

[Roden]

Can somebody who's good at set up spec explain why caught scum would claim ungated Vig instead of Doc?

[Roden]

Yeah I think Italiano fucked up there. I don't want to go in depth into casing him yet, but he was defending the slot before Andres replaced in as well.

I also think I feel comfortable parking here now: VOTE: Salad

What kind of pressure do you expect to give on a slot that has done nothing. I’ve seen scum do this countless times. I’ve done it myself. As scum, you don’t want to ruffle too many feathers and most times you feel fine going after players that won’t put up a fight or appear to not be able to put up a fight. This is scum 101.

[Roden]

Why would we chain elim JV if HEM flipped town? He already said it was just a gambit and that he doesn't actually have a guilty, this isn't a 1v1. That's basically like saying to vote out whoever has incorrect reads, if that's the only reason to vote out JV on a green HEM flip.

[Roden]

There's not really any way we can go wrong here as town unless HEM were town and to gain some unique insight from rereading the whole thing. If HEM comes back town we go for Jackson next. If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

Where does "if Jackson isn't" fit into that post?

[Roden]

I'm struggling to see HEM as scum here. His reaction to getting "guilty'd" is wildly different than Andres' was. HEM claimed right away, Andres didn't (probably to ask in the scum PT what to fake claim). His anger feels genuine, but it doesn't feel like a "I'm mad I got caught" attitude, but more annoyed that he got shoved into a corner just because someone lied and he can't be around to defend himself.

I also feel like we mind melded early on, I thought maybe he was just pocketing me but he showed that concern first, and it felt real when he wrote that. Tbh I'm not sure what he gains from pocketing me anyway since I was under heavy suspicion Day 1 and I didn't have much influence over the game state, and I ended up backing off of the scum reads we both shared. The slots he's been pushing don't feel like opportunistic pushes either, I feel like he would've backed off of Mala and Leaf/Gamma when he saw they weren't going through if he was scum, but his insistence on pushing there makes it seem like he feels that he's onto something and everyone else just doesn't see it.

HEM stop making excuses for bad play

bad play?

i'm doing my best here

i really resent how you always try to manipulate me by saying im a bad player

This also felt real.

[Roden]

Also I think this kill confirms that scum don't have a Roleblocker.

It would've been easy to get Koopa mis-elim'd by just blocking them every night and letting them cause chaos with their day play.

Though maybe they didn't think Koopa was actually all that chaotic, potentially because their reads were actually accurate or someone on the scum team got spooked once they revealed they were Koba all along.

This legit sounds like a post in the scumchat. Also, why block a pr when you can just kill it, hence why koopa is dead.

And yeah I’m doing this.

VOTE: Nk15

Sussy baka.

VOTE: Andresvmb

Guilty!

Like why is this being just blindly trusted?

VOTE: NK15

1 for 1.

Yeah I think Italiano fucked up there. I don't want to go in depth into casing him yet, but he was defending the slot before Andres replaced in as well.

I also think I feel comfortable parking here now: VOTE: Salad

What kind of pressure do you expect to give on a slot that has done nothing. I’ve seen scum do this countless times. I’ve done it myself. As scum, you don’t want to ruffle too many feathers and most times you feel fine going after players that won’t put up a fight or appear to not be able to put up a fight. This is scum 101.

Also let's not forget that this happened yesterday.

[Roden]

Oh I voted NK15 thinking he was pulling a scum gambit on his partner? A vote I rescinded and a point I clarified with someone who is used to playing with scum!NK? That?

It's a weird order of events.

NK15: "I have a guilty on Andres" *votes Andres*
Italiano: "Roden scum slipped" *votes NK15*
Andres: "I'm town" *votes NK15*

It doesn't even make sense to vote NK15 here first. You only considered two worlds here: it was either a scum gambit and they were both scum, or Andres was just caught and NK15 was town. Andres is scum in both worlds, so why did you vote NK15? If you thought he could've been bussing, why not just...let him bus?

And sure if you wanna frame it like I was ‘defending’ the slot you can. My actual point was, it was a waste of a vote because there was a high chance nothing would come of it. Nice shade by the way.

I’d still like to go for Roden and/or Kitty once we figure out what’s going on with HEM.

I'm not framing anything. You blatantly defended flipped scum after they got hit with a guilty. You didn't say anything about your suspicions of a scum gambit until later on, you just shaded me then voted NK15 without addressing the guilty, or really even accusing NK15 of anything.

Feel free to scum case me though. I've been waiting for one, but all you've done all game is call me scum and complain that everyone is bad if they don't vote me.

[Roden]

Anyway for now my hot take fresh off the press…

Scum team: koopa, Roden, Scorpious.

Honestly if I wasn’t leaning toward Flavor Leaf being town I’d think he and koopa were partners.

I think Mala is the LHF for today.

Well off to bed y’all everyone have a great night!

If no one sees Roden is scum here you’re not trying. Koopa what are you on brother?

Do me a favor and vote Roden. Okay?

Why do you townread mala?

Can you stop asking the same questions expecting a different answer? Mala is townread period. Not universally, but enough that she shouldn’t be the lim today. We are going for Roden today.

Why is roden wolf?

Don’t ask questions. Just follow. Vote Roden.

Like this has been ad nauseam. Your reads have been wrong and you aren't bothering to explain them.

[Roden]

Personally, I think Roden's the best fade today.

Gives loads of information, good chance of scum, most of the game doesn't get their point, and theyre just pushing like I flipped a narrative, when I really didn't.

Everyone else I can make a bigger case for being town, such as HEM, such as Mala, even NK15 has a stronger town case than Roden.

But there is a lot of good discussion to have on all those other slots that we likely can come to better conclusions with extra flips and a Night Kill + PR actions.

I think Roden's just the overall best fade today.

Let's kill HEM (:

Yeah let’s not.

Why?

I think he’s town.

This one also needs to be explained. It sounds like your read may have changed here, and if it has it would be good to know why.

[Roden]

Alright let's go.

VOTE: HEM

And here you said I was charming. I should've known you were trying to butter me up.

And sure if you wanna frame it like I was ‘defending’ the slot you can. My actual point was, it was a waste of a vote because there was a high chance nothing would come of it. Nice shade by the way.

I’d still like to go for Roden and/or Kitty once we figure out what’s going on with HEM.

This doesn't read like someone who town reads HEM. Nothing has effectively changed that would make Italiano suddenly unsure of his read on HEM, there isn't a guilty result and there isn't a 1v1 in place. If there isn't any new information and he supposedly town read him before the fake guilty gambit, what exactly is there to "figure out"?

[Roden]

Gonna be responding to these one at a time, so my posts are gonna be spaced out.

Spoiler:

Anyway for now my hot take fresh off the press…

Scum team: koopa, Roden, Scorpious.

Honestly if I wasn’t leaning toward Flavor Leaf being town I’d think he and koopa were partners.

I think Mala is the LHF for today.

Well off to bed y’all everyone have a great night!

If no one sees Roden is scum here you’re not trying. Koopa what are you on brother?

Do me a favor and vote Roden. Okay?

Why do you townread mala?

Can you stop asking the same questions expecting a different answer? Mala is townread period. Not universally, but enough that she shouldn’t be the lim today. We are going for Roden today.

Why is roden wolf?

Don’t ask questions. Just follow. Vote Roden.

Like this has been ad nauseam. Your reads have been wrong and you aren't bothering to explain them.

Personally, I think Roden's the best fade today.

Gives loads of information, good chance of scum, most of the game doesn't get their point, and theyre just pushing like I flipped a narrative, when I really didn't.

Everyone else I can make a bigger case for being town, such as HEM, such as Mala, even NK15 has a stronger town case than Roden.

But there is a lot of good discussion to have on all those other slots that we likely can come to better conclusions with extra flips and a Night Kill + PR actions.

I think Roden's just the overall best fade today.

Let's kill HEM (:

Yeah let’s not.

Why?

I think he’s town.

This one also needs to be explained. It sounds like your read may have changed here, and if it has it would be good to know why.

Listen, frankly I’ve been trying to keep up since midday Day 1 and I’m failing immensely. I’ve basically given up trying to truly catchup and decided to just follow the events live.

Early on I thought HEM’s initial take on Mala was in good faith. I don’t agree with Gamma here regarding that it wasn’t. I could see why Mala was getting the heat she was and I wasn’t totally against it. I did start to feel some townie frustration from Mala though, so when I saw you jump on, it made me suspicious and then koopa and then Kitty. I really started to feel like her wagon was scum driven and you and Kitty jumped out to me. It was not who you were voting for, but how you did it. And I know both or all scum weren’t likely on the wagon but that’s where my head was.

Also at the time it felt like a possible pocket attempt on HEM with 69 coupled with 119. And the overall way you were positioning yourself around the two slots (HEM/Mala) was highly suspicious to me. From what I can remember you’ve been kinda following HEM around this whole game. And if he is town, then imo it can point to you being scum.

What has changed that should make me think otherwise? I mean if I’m wrong about you, then show me why. If I’ve missed something somewhere, which I probably did, then point me to it. You just saying I’m wrong means nothing to me.

I'm not sure how you could think my positioning on the Mala wagon was suspicious if that's your only reason. I voted all the way back on page 3 during RVS, essentially starting the wagon, and I questioned her further and made some follow up posts when she was around to talk.

it's more for getting warned by the mod thing.

I actually enjoy mafia sometimes and i really dont want to be banned

esp

for something so stupid of "oh she's being self conscious" lets vote her!!!

Ok but we're in the RVS stage/trying to leave RVS, there isn't a whole lot to go off of so we're voting for whatever reason makes at least some sense and then seeing how others/the game state reacts. I feel like you've experienced enough to know this.

But to say "just vote me out so I don't get banned" instead of picking literally any other option is just ???

Like, if you're town this just fucks us over because you're essentially just making yourself a policy elim that provides no info upon your flip. Everybody who votes you in this scenario can essentially do it for free because they can just say "she asked to die so I voted for her". Though obviously if you're scum then this is just AtE to get people to back off.

Another layer to this is that, in that game you were scum in that I've been referencing, Toogeloo did the exact same thing you're currently doing, got town read for it, and did end up being town. I feel like that has to be at the back of your mind here, and that you're trying to get town read by emulating that same behavior.

I feel like this post in particular shows that I was genuinely trying to solve her alignment, and that I had a more complex reason for voting her then just "jumping on". And when it got to a point that I reconsidered my read, I backed off and gave my reasoning when questioned by HEM.

WRT posts 69 and 119: could you explain what exactly makes you think they're pockety? 69 is just a town read, and 119 is me saying that HEM and I were making the same argument. I also heavily disagree with the notion that I'm following HEM around, we mind melded early on but we've also disagreed on a few reads.

"What has changed that should make me think otherwise?" is a really weird thought process to have here because you only referenced posts from the literal beginning of the game. You're basing your scum read on me from something I said on Day 1 page 5, like has your read not evolved at all in the span of 125 pages and two in game days? And now you want me to dig through all of those pages to prove to you that I'm town? You can case me and I'll respond, that's fine, but I'm not going to dig through my ISO to quote posts that I think are townie without context.

[Roden]

Spoiler:

Oh I voted NK15 thinking he was pulling a scum gambit on his partner? A vote I rescinded and a point I clarified with someone who is used to playing with scum!NK? That?

It's a weird order of events.

NK15: "I have a guilty on Andres" *votes Andres*
Italiano: "Roden scum slipped" *votes NK15*
Andres: "I'm town" *votes NK15*

It doesn't even make sense to vote NK15 here first. You only considered two worlds here: it was either a scum gambit and they were both scum, or Andres was just caught and NK15 was town. Andres is scum in both worlds, so why did you vote NK15? If you thought he could've been bussing, why not just...let him bus?

And sure if you wanna frame it like I was ‘defending’ the slot you can. My actual point was, it was a waste of a vote because there was a high chance nothing would come of it. Nice shade by the way.

I’d still like to go for Roden and/or Kitty once we figure out what’s going on with HEM.

I'm not framing anything. You blatantly defended flipped scum after they got hit with a guilty. You didn't say anything about your suspicions of a scum gambit until later on, you just shaded me then voted NK15 without addressing the guilty, or really even accusing NK15 of anything.

Feel free to scum case me though. I've been waiting for one, but all you've done all game is call me scum and complain that everyone is bad if they don't vote me.

Don’t @ me, if you read all my Day 2 posts, everyone can see where my head was. Why are you even asking these questions expecting a different answer? Come on bruh.

I don't think your reason for voting NK15 makes sense and I'm trying to understand it. If it was a 50/50 chance on whether or not NK15 was scum, and a 100% chance that Andres was scum, voting NK15 doesn't make sense to me. And this doesn't really address the rest of what I said.

[Roden]

Also, Roden’s push on me is quite skewed given the arguments.

Roden’s case against me is:

1) I defended Andres’ slot.
2) I voted for NK15 over Andres’ slot.
3) I voted for HEM even though I said I townread him.

784 is where Roden defends Andres’ slot and elaborated in 790

HEM, Kitty myself and Roden ‘defended’ Andres’ slot. But why were we saying it? It’s poor play in general and not alignment indicative.

Did you link the wrong posts? Those posts are about Leaf and Scorpius, I don't mention Andres at all there. In fact, Andres hadn't even replaced into the game yet, not until post 848.

Andresvmb replaces Saladman27

Mathblade replaces Facebones

Please welcome them!

I never defended him anyway, and it's pretty easy to prove by just going into my ISO and using Ctrl + F to search his name.

[Roden]

Also, Roden’s push on me is quite skewed given the arguments.

Roden’s case against me is:

1) I defended Andres’ slot.
2) I voted for NK15 over Andres’ slot.
3) I voted for HEM even though I said I townread him.

784 is where Roden defends Andres’ slot and elaborated in 790

HEM, Kitty myself and Roden ‘defended’ Andres’ slot. But why were we saying it? It’s poor play in general and not alignment indicative.

Let me make this clearer. What I mean to say is koopa’s vote on a basically empty slot wasn’t helping anything. Calling it out is nai. If I’m scum for doing that, then you’re all scum. You good with that?

Furthermore, I think you trying to use that as a case on me is very poor and you must have forgot your actions. Anyway I’ll wait for you to respond before rendering final judgment read wise.

I...don't understand what you mean here. What does Koopa's vote have to do with anything? What makes us all scum?

Why is my case poor and what actions did I forget??

[Roden]

Kinda surreal to read that I'm apparently coming off as much less calm and collected than usual when I had an actual emotional breakdown in my last town game.

[Roden]

I don't think JV is scum. The vibes aren't there and tonally he feels genuine.

I'm kinda back and forth on Math but I think he's just a lost townie. I feel like scum!Math is more deliberate and planned than his play has been this game, and his vote on JV is +town for trying to get people to talk after the game has started to stall out.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Don't like the prod dodge and lack of response to my posts and accusations.

[Roden]

I will respond to your other questions when I don’t want to throw my phone across the room but the jist is some people read players and others read gamestate and others read relationships. I am more the latter so any stilted relationship flags for me

I'm more of the gamestate per se.

What's your take on the current game state? The lull in activity feels off to me.

[Roden]

Pretty sure Math vs JV is TvT and I don't think the current argument between them is helpful.

[Roden]

That's E-1 and HEM said he would hammer if Italiano was run up to E-1.

PE: Yep.

[Roden]

I'd unvote if Italiano hadn't just argued that the burden of proof of scum casing me falls on me lmao

[Roden]

Let Italiano claim first

[Roden]

There's not really any way we can go wrong here as town unless HEM were town and to gain some unique insight from rereading the whole thing. If HEM comes back town we go for Jackson next. If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

Where does "if Jackson isn't" fit into that post?

In case I die, please don't forget this tomorrow, because Malcolm never responded.

[Roden]

VOTE: Malcolm

[Roden]

Can we PLEASE stop claiming when put under minimal fucking pressure

[Roden]

Malcolm why are you concerned you could get quick hammered at Day start? Like...whoever would do so would just be scum claiming. This isn't ELO, that would've just been a trap to catch scum.

[Roden]

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

Because I think you're a deep wolf. Your play is way too squeaky clean to still be alive. Sitting off both mis-elim wagons and claiming to have defended them doesn't mean much if they still get voted out, it just means you don't take any blame for the wagon. And honestly I don't think it makes any sense from a town perspective to confidently town read either of them, there were plenty of reasons to doubt that they'd flip green. And besides that, town casing someone and putting actual effort into trying to stop a mis-elim are two completely different things. You did the former but I don't remember you actively trying to stop people from voting out your town reads.

Additionally, why would scum kill JV? I town read him too, but he offered anti-town utility with his role and had a generally abrasive tone/attitude that made people want to vote him. The NK just seems like a basic "kill the PRs" NK, but he wasn't confirmed and he didn't have any actual power. And the scum team clearly believed we had an actual Vig (hence why Andres tried to claim Vig instead of Doc), so why didn't they go PR hunting or at least try to kill consensus town reads?

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

[Roden]

Can somebody who's good at set up spec explain why caught scum would claim ungated Vig instead of Doc?

Somewhat unrelated, but I think with JV's flip it's pretty likely scum have a Rolecop, and that's why Andres claimed Vig. I think they checked JV on Night 1, since two other people already claimed roles and they wanted to know what he was a backup of.

[Roden]

UNVOTE: for now since I'm going to bed soon.

[Roden]

Mala, can we talk? I need your perspective on something.

[Roden]

?

From what I understand, you town read me and scum read HEM. Do you think this is similar to Control and that I'm just pocketed here?

[Roden]

Default answer is Malcolm. Spicy answer is one of my town reads in case I'm pocketed.

[Roden]

I literally told you why I unvoted but ok

Do you think there's pocketing going on in any direction between me and HEM?

[Roden]

what do you think Roden

why dont you stop flirting with the idea of shading me and confront me directly

I'm trying to work through my paranoia after getting pocketed multiple games in a row, I want more outside takes. But also I'm trying to understand why we're not getting paired by anyone at this point. We're only getting scum read individually, but no one's coming to either of us telling us to wake the fuck up and reevaluate. The implication with solves like Roden/Kitty or HEM/Kitty is that we're pocketed in some way, but no one's outright said that.

[Roden]

Also I don't think Gamma or Mala are controlling the game state in any particular way. I don't think they've been active enough to do that.

[Roden]

There's not really any way we can go wrong here as town unless HEM were town and to gain some unique insight from rereading the whole thing. If HEM comes back town we go for Jackson next. If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

Where does "if Jackson isn't" fit into that post?

In case I die, please don't forget this tomorrow, because Malcolm never responded.

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

I'd still like for Malcolm to respond to this btw.

[Roden]

yes but i'm more entertaining a gamestate where town is self-cannibalizing and scum is playing a low-key game. right now, scum's winning strategy is to secure two miselims. that's it. that's what they need to do. who do you think is inching towards that finish line?

In that case then the Day 1 suspicions towards them were right and the resistance towards their wagons came purely from town. Those same townies have suspected you/me/Kitty for most of this game. And this also has to mean Malcom is town and really is a Simple Jailkeeper, but I don't see how that fits the set up.

Ughhhhhhh I'm gonna be really annoyed if Leaf faked a meltdown and tactically replaced out

[Roden]

i'm 50/50 on malcolm right now because while that claim is sus, he backed down off my slot and pushed you instead and i think that's out of nowhere and unstrategic for scum to do when humaneatingmonkey is sitting right there being the #1 scapegoat.

This is actually a really good point...

Why the hell do we have a Simple Jailkeeper and two investigatives then? I mean yeah most of the PRs claimed on Day 1 but still, I don't think the mod predicted that during set up. Maybe scum have two PRs? A Rolecop and something weak to avoid the Simple check? The Lazy Tracker would help avoid swing here maybe.

[Roden]

What's fucking with me is that we basically get to unleash three scum-finding PRs all at once on Night 1, yet scum don't have a Roleblocker. In the hands of a less claim-happy town, I don't see how that doesn't steamroll scum.

[Roden]

I literally told you why I unvoted but ok

Do you think there's pocketing going on in any direction between me and HEM?

Notably you ignored the vast majority of my post, particularly the hedgy interactions between you and Kitty throughout the game.

You also failed to explain why I would be deep wolfing here considering it would require some pretty big coincidences given - by your own logic - I've also been pursuing several townies throughout the game.

I ignored most of your post because you're seeing things that aren't there. I just don't agree that I've been hedging around Kitty.

I don't see how the elims have been coincidences? It's not hard to town read townies who are under pressure and clearly have the momentum to be voted out.

[Roden]

i'm 50/50 on malcolm right now because while that claim is sus, he backed down off my slot and pushed you instead and i think that's out of nowhere and unstrategic for scum to do when humaneatingmonkey is sitting right there being the #1 scapegoat.

This is actually a really good point...

Why the hell do we have a Simple Jailkeeper and two investigatives then? I mean yeah most of the PRs claimed on Day 1 but still, I don't think the mod predicted that during set up. Maybe scum have two PRs? A Rolecop and something weak to avoid the Simple check? The Lazy Tracker would help avoid swing here maybe.

Been ruminating on this more and I can’t figure out what two PRs work.

Maybe a named scum? Is that normal?

Anything that can be tracked is left open for guilty on N1.

Bulletproof scum would work but without a vig that’s trolly on a setup already punishing to scum.

So like ??? *confusedi

When Andres claimed Vig I initially thought scum were worried about one because one of their scum buddies were Bulletproof. But yeah, with the current claims that feels a little weak for scum. But, they didn't spend N3 looking for a Vig, so I'm not sure why they fished for one instead of a Doc...

[Roden]

Note Roden and Kitty are both staying firmly away from these gameplay discussions for the most part, because the current state of the game likely suits them so long as I am at risk.

You're joking, right?

I'm the one who brought set up discussion to the forefront. I've been actively trying to parse how your role fits into the set up and theorizing why Andres fished for a Vig instead of a Doc.

[Roden]

I feel like Kitty has been getting heat all game, but it never really seemed like they were in danger of getting eliminated.

[Roden]

I'd rather vote Malcolm, yes. I don't see much resistance to his elim though, which means if he's scum then he's getting bussed.

I think...maybe he's a Mafia Doctor, and that's why scum didn't fish there. So that he could claim a protective role later if necessary. It would also imply to the scum team that town have a Vig, so it would give multiple reasons for them to Vig hunt early on. It would also escape a guilty from the Gunsmith.

[Roden]

There's not really any way we can go wrong here as town unless HEM were town and to gain some unique insight from rereading the whole thing. If HEM comes back town we go for Jackson next. If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

Where does "if Jackson isn't" fit into that post?

In case I die, please don't forget this tomorrow, because Malcolm never responded.

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

I'd still like for Malcolm to respond to this btw.

Still waiting for Malcolm to answer this.

[Roden]

Mala, can we talk? I need your perspective on something.

?

From what I understand, you town read me and scum read HEM. Do you think this is similar to Control and that I'm just pocketed here?

I'd also like for Mala to respond to this.

[Roden]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

[Roden]

We still have time in the day, I'm not voting yet.

If you're town you don't get to say "maybe it's the players you're paranoid are pocketing you" and then go fuck off and die

[Roden]

Roden is transparently doing all they can here to clear Kitty, who is about to be heavily involved in a townie wagon for the third time in the game, this time for an identical reason to the exact logic they gave for their decision to eliminating Italiano still being a sensible one.

Are you talking about this post?

I feel like Kitty has been getting heat all game, but it never really seemed like they were in danger of getting eliminated.

Because this is me openly wondering why Kitty doesn't ever have the momentum to get wagon'd. I actually don't understand why they haven't been in any real danger this game. I went back and dug through Koopa's ISO since I remember they had a lot to say about Kitty, and though they went back and forth on their read before ending up with a town read there, when they did suspect Kitty there still wasn't much momentum there.

If you think Kitty is scum then why has there been so little pressure there overall? If I'm partnered with Kitty then why isn't anyone else seeing it? Do you think I'm just easily snowing HEM Math Gamma and Mala?

[Roden]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

What does this even mean? I've been quite clear about my reads for the entirety of the turn. I think Kitty is mafia. I've largely believed that since D1.

I'm just making the point that I don't want to seem overly arrogant by insisting I'm absolutely right and can't be wrong, because I expect I'll have made an incorrect assumption along the way, but I have been incredibly consistent in my belief that Kitty is not town.

Because if you're town, you're following the same pattern as the other mis-elims where you have a spicy scum read that you didn't feel confident in saying until the end where you won't have to back it up after you die.

Why do you think it could be Mala and/or Gamma? What struck you that would make you think if you're wrong about Kitty, it has to be them?

[Roden]

Fundamentally it's interesting here that I have been the main elimination candidate for the majority of the day but my vote count keeps hovering around two. I can only have one partner if I'm hypothetical mafia, and yet nobody is really strongly defending me either. Whatever is going on someone from mafia (I expect Kitty's partner) is wary to end this because they don't want to look suspect, and they fundamentally want town to do it.

I'm seeing this too. That's why I don't want to end the Day yet.

I don't think scum are wary to vote you though. Game state doesn't suggest anyone who ends the day soon is definitely scum since there's a general agreement of everyone suspecting you.

Roden, I also don't feel like you've really addressed how silly your whole deep wolfing theory on me is (the reason I've suspected you to be honest) given it's predicated on me having advanced foresight neither Kitty nor HEM would be eliminated at all.

I don't think there's anything silly about it and no one else seems to agree with that either.

[Roden]

Alright, let's try something.

VOTE: Kitty

[Roden]

Mala, can we talk? I need your perspective on something.

?

From what I understand, you town read me and scum read HEM. Do you think this is similar to Control and that I'm just pocketed here?

I'd also like for Mala to respond to this.

Can you give a brief summary of this game? It’s obviously important to you. What similarities are you asking about?

Basically I got pocketed by two different people who town read me after I got mass scum read by town for like five day phases in a row. One just hard defended me all game while occasionally pretending to hesitate/reevaluate, while the other went from hard scum reading me to town reading me. It's bit more complex than that, but that's more or less it. There's also the last game we just had with Koba where I had a hunch they were scum but got browbeat pocketed into defending them anyway.

One of my biggest weaknesses as town is that I find it really difficult to tell the difference between someone who genuinely town reads me and someone who's just trying to pocket me. I understand that by openly claiming this that I'm just giving scum an opportunity to more confidently try to pocket me in the future, but it's already happened enough recently that I'm pretty sure that people who've played with me enough already know this. Though I hope that by being open about this, town can analyze how other people play around me and why people town read me.

It's why I keep asking people who've seen me get pocketed before if they think it's happening now. Using Control as an example, Mala scum read me in that game and didn't get why others town read me. It turned out it was because most of the ones who did were scum. Because of that, I've been hoping to get her perspective and for her to go into further detail on why she thinks HEM is scum, but she seems to be tuned out this game.

Also the reason I brought up Koba's pocket from last game is because they made a similar play to what Leaf did this game. Koba argued that I only scum read them because of ego, and it made me hesitate enough to wonder if I was just making an ego play or if I was actually just right. Turned out I was just right, but it still shook my confidence enough to stop going after them. Leaf basically did the same thing this game (in addition to a lot of anti-town behavior in general), and it makes me wonder if it's just the same situation again. He claimed to have mentored Koba, so I could see them using the same strategies as scum.

Main problem with this is that I read some of Leaf's past games and he apparently just kind of...does that, regardless of alignment. One game in particular was very similar to this one: he was manipulative, threw a fit when he didn't get his way, and then replaced out. But then it turned out his fight was just TvT in the end. That combined with Gamma's play after replacing in makes me think the slot is town. I still want other perspectives here though, because he's starting to coast a bit and no one's paying much attention there, with the exception of Italiano and Malcom giving their last reads before elimination and saying they could be wrong about their town read there.

[Roden]

Roden is transparently doing all they can here to clear Kitty, who is about to be heavily involved in a townie wagon for the third time in the game, this time for an identical reason to the exact logic they gave for their decision to eliminating Italiano still being a sensible one.

Are you talking about this post?

I feel like Kitty has been getting heat all game, but it never really seemed like they were in danger of getting eliminated.

Because this is me openly wondering why Kitty doesn't ever have the momentum to get wagon'd. I actually don't understand why they haven't been in any real danger this game. I went back and dug through Koopa's ISO since I remember they had a lot to say about Kitty, and though they went back and forth on their read before ending up with a town read there, when they did suspect Kitty there still wasn't much momentum there.

If you think Kitty is scum then why has there been so little pressure there overall? If I'm partnered with Kitty then why isn't anyone else seeing it? Do you think I'm just easily snowing HEM Math Gamma and Mala?

Alright, let's try something.

VOTE: Kitty

I really think Malcolm is ultimately necessary here. If Gamma agrees on Kitty, I will go Kitty for consensus but you moving to Kitty is odd here. I am having a hard time figuring out how you can agree with me on the mechanics then don’t want to follow through.

I wanted to see what would happen. Getting reactions from everyone is good info, and I was especially interested to see how Malcolm reacted. Him going quiet wasn't what I expected though.

[Roden]

Pretty sure the vig is a red herring rn

Agreed. Vigs are conf town in innos. This game already has a lot of power. I doubt a vig is here.

Roden and Gamma I ask again, do you TR Malcolm?

I think this post could be a town spew:

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Scum typically try to anti-spew or cause WIFOM if they're going to die. Additionally, scum casing me while moments away from death seems a little pointless. It also feels like there's a bit too much consensus in voting out Malcolm?

On the other hand, he slowed his activity quite a bit when I voted Kitty. That feels really fucking off.

[Roden]

Pretty sure the vig is a red herring rn

Agreed. Vigs are conf town in innos. This game already has a lot of power. I doubt a vig is here.

Roden and Gamma I ask again, do you TR Malcolm?

I think this post could be a town spew:

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Scum typically try to anti-spew or cause WIFOM if they're going to die. Additionally, scum casing me while moments away from death seems a little pointless. It also feels like there's a bit too much consensus in voting out Malcolm?

On the other hand, he slowed his activity quite a bit when I voted Kitty. That feels really fucking off.

Where I am at is one of two possibilities:
A> Malcolm is scum with a poor fake claim. Hem has been hard defending and Mala soft defending and you not willing to vote Malcolm. Everyone else has been okay with a Malcolm Elim. That’s what I would expect if HEM or Mala or you are partners. The fact Malcolm isn’t hammered demonstrates there isn’t consensus.

The post you linked is not townspew imho. It’s desperation. I even pointed out the flaws in that later. I think Malcolm just expected everyone to go “not Malcolm”.

Or B> Malcolm is town. Like how does this work at all? I can’t make this fit. Malcolm has been on the sidelines (vote wise) most of the game and that is pretty typical of scum. Day one we couldn’t elim anyone hardly. Malcolm was on the Andres wagon (which matches scum possibly bussing theory I had)

Mainly I am at the point of trying to shove a square peg in a round hole here.

I think Malcolm has to be the elim today and that’s a pretty weak argument for a no. Imho if you don’t want to elim Malcolm then I need more to assuage these doubts. Especially because if I put my vote back on Malcolm they’ve threatened to end the day which is very scummy. Consider me spiritually there though.

These are all fair points. My thinking at this point is that if Kitty flips scum, then Malcolm is basically conftown, right? On the flip side, if Kitty flips town and Malcolm doesn't die over night, then he's confscum. There isn't any chance it could be TvT.

...Or, it's been scum theatre the whole time, and Malcolm doesn't know how to react to a potential Kitty elim after having expected to die today.

It's been two days since I've voted Kitty and he's had nothing to say about it. He accused me of being Kitty's scum buddy, but he hasn't attempted to reevaluate me after the vote. Not even a mention that I could be bussing. And he stopped pushing Kitty as well; I feel like if he saw momentum to kill his scum read and survive the day, he'd feel at least a bit hopeful. Instead he's just prod dodging and avoiding the game.

[Roden]

Fundamentally it's interesting here that I have been the main elimination candidate for the majority of the day but my vote count keeps hovering around two. I can only have one partner if I'm hypothetical mafia, and yet nobody is really strongly defending me either. Whatever is going on someone from mafia (I expect Kitty's partner) is wary to end this because they don't want to look suspect, and they fundamentally want town to do it.

I'm seeing this too. That's why I don't want to end the Day yet.

I don't think scum are wary to vote you though. Game state doesn't suggest anyone who ends the day soon is definitely scum since there's a general agreement of everyone suspecting you.

Roden, I also don't feel like you've really addressed how silly your whole deep wolfing theory on me is (the reason I've suspected you to be honest) given it's predicated on me having advanced foresight neither Kitty nor HEM would be eliminated at all.

I don't think there's anything silly about it and no one else seems to agree with that either.

It's silly because it's predicated on the idea I was able to guess the eliminations in advance. Would I have been deep wolfing if HEM went out and came back town or mafia? Clearly not. Yet I'd been willing to vote for them consistently. I am town who (for once) correctly read the play of other players as town, and now that is being used as the basis for my elimination, AFTER I have claimed a role as town, that is just incredibly frustrating.

Why does Malcolm go quiet after I try to give him exactly what he wanted here? He's claiming he's frustrated, but then does nothing for two days when I vote Kitty and start defending him.

[Roden]

GG, scum played well. I really wish people had actually talked to me when I said "I think I'm pocketed" instead of just...ignoring me. I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him (and tbh had it been literally anyone else he would've been flash elim'd right there), but the early interactions with Leaf just kinda set it up for me to sit in HEM's pocket.

Kinda agree that town had too much power unleashed on Day 1, but it didn't really matter since they all died one after the other before they could do much, and it got one of the PRs voted out since their role didn't seem to fit. I want to say the game felt decided on Day 1 because of how drawn out and messy it was, but mainly I think it's just all the PRs claiming early that hurt us the most since it also prevented NKA and let a top town read like Math survive to ELo without anyone questioning why he was still alive.

I think on average the random role distribution is enough to balance the game since PRs may go to someone who misplays it. In an optimal distribution I'm sure it's definitely a town sided set up. But as it is now it looked so town sided on paper that it was enough for people to vote out a TPR mainly due to balance reasons. So I guess the main counter balance for this set up is that if the game looks town sided and a PR has some wonky looking results without catching scum, town will think they're just scum. Scum's best play is to say it's too town-sided as well and really push that idea.

[Roden]

I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him

Really? I thought that was instrumental in discouraging you from pursuing that train of thought...

When it happened it felt manipulative, and I noticed you were going after whoever scum read you. It was part of the reason I ended up making that wall post going into my weaknesses as town and trying to get people to engage with me on that. But because I town read you outside of that instance and figured Malcom vs Kitty was TvS in some way, I interpreted your lash out as town manipulative instead of scum manipulative. In the end I figured you'd just try to reason with me if you were scum, instead of risking a hostile reaction.

[Roden]

I don't think anyone in particular is to blame for the town loss tbh, town mostly just cannablized themselves. Even if we got HEM Day 3, Math still has a good chance to win since he was town read for most of the game and the Jailkeeper couldn't guilty him. Malcolm vs Kitty still likely happens and is a potential chain mis-elim taking Math straight to ELo. I'm also likely voted out at some point for defending HEM so much, so Math has a pretty obvious path he can take to win.