Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[RadiantCowbells]

Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

I believe your conception of normal balance is off.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not gonna read the whole thread

Any townies think this game is scumsided want to raise hands

[RadiantCowbells]

Townsided *

[RadiantCowbells]

I sim this setup as sub 50% odds of a town win. I can't really help beyond that.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think you drastically underrate several things

1) The scum can convince town that a mafia doctor exists and render all their clears useless. Because of this no slots will actually end up cleared if scum approach it properly.

2) Gunsmith guilty is 50% likely to be town. Role cop automatically claims out of it, experienced scum can dodge it.

3) Tracker in 13p is an extremely low power role and the lazy affix takes away it's best use condition.

I don't think that my sim is flawed. The closest thing to evidence i have for that is that I expected 55% winrate for the newbie setup and hit that within 2%.

I believe that people have a very poor sense of how power roles actually impact the game: for example I'm sure a Cop Jailkeeper setup vs goons would have raised no questions but this version of the game is better for scum in basically every way

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that you have an issue where you overrated the harm done to scum teams by a member being guiltied. Typically a guiltied scum team member is one that was already in the line of fire anyway and often would have been limmed before endgame anyway. If that's the case all the guilty does is tells scum who to shoot.

[RadiantCowbells]

This game gives scum an incredible amount of outplay potential inherent to gunsmith setups. Frankly i would not have passed this because i think it's too easy for scum. If the knowledge is publicly available that scum win 60% of normal games and people still want to complain about setups like this I'm not quite sure what solution you want exactly. Barring making any claim about objectivity of balance, what winrate do you want to see for scum empirically, 70%?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think scum that have no coherence of strategy, don't attempt to play to outs, lie down and die because GS guilty instead of claiming, don't have any initiative to push things themselves should lose. I think that town who don't do this kind of stuff lose. I don't think the execution requirements as scum should be lower than as town. Balancing around scum who flail and lurk and town who actively attempt to solve and make good night actions is... not my vision of how games should be balanced.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also gunsmith is like 1/3 as good as a cop max

[RadiantCowbells]

With the every other night modifier

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think so because as I pointed out i believe that as odd night the game is already weighted for scum not town. Lazy tracker is going to do nothing relevant to town wincon most games. Jailkeeper being simple gives scum a lot of leeway in how to approach the game in general.

Wdym you have no outs. Claim a role with a gun. Setup spec. Push that scum has a doc. Do the things that increase your wr instead of being a passive participant in the setup.

[RadiantCowbells]

There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

[RadiantCowbells]

Backup gunsmith
Literally any role with cop in the name if the rolecop hasn't flipped
Vig claim can buy time if late enough

Hell if you get counter claimed by the JK now the two actual town power roles are both out of the game and your winrate is extremely high so

[RadiantCowbells]

There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

[RadiantCowbells]

Cop gunsmith is passable and I've played and won it as scum back when i was super new so I'm not sure what you're thinking of there

[RadiantCowbells]

There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

No two kills on a given night.

Be creative. That's why I suggested novice vig, it works for D2. Then you can claim roleblocked. Just do something, yeah? And simple Jailkeeper is probably inclined to buy a Roleblocker existing with simple being there to prevent conflicts!

[RadiantCowbells]

I agree that that specific setup was townsided but i don't think it's a fundamental problem with the two roles coexisting. I'd be fine with cop GS VT*8 goon goon scumdoc probably or a range of other combos

[RadiantCowbells]

I think your claim that nerfing town power would make town play better is one that could use extraordinary evidence given that it is an extraordinary claim

[RadiantCowbells]

Like 20%

[RadiantCowbells]

I knew the number at one point, i have no idea now

[RadiantCowbells]

I think your claim that nerfing town power would make town play better is one that could use extraordinary evidence given that it is an extraordinary claim

It’s not really that extraordinary though.

The more people are forced to engage with a problem the more they have to get better.

Mountainous will have a lower win rate until people adjust.

Similarly too much TPR leaves people disengaged and a few key players “decide” and others are sidelined then when key players die it’s a vaccuum.

The claim that engagement has to do with how much is required doesn't seem to work given that both times in the recent newbie queue history where the setup was perceived as bafflingly one sided the morale for the other teams absolutely implode and they barely efforted.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sure. You're all wrong, if that's what you want to hear.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm sure with you personally part of the issue is you directly comparing power in MU setups vs MS setups but quite frankly MU is very late in an extremely toxic meta shift whereby 2+ people are confirmed town on D1 just for showing up to the game and scum are demoralized from the get go and they can afford to play scumsided setups because of a myriad factors causing scum to underperform there.

[RadiantCowbells]

When MS starts needing flake moderators to police people who sub out because scum role PM then tactically playing scumsided setups becomes more realistic

[RadiantCowbells]

There's a very strong tendency for random people to have a skewed sense of balance where 65-35 scumsided games are the 'balanced' and to cite things like not wanting town to win because of night actions but because of day play and etc. Unfortunately fact is that the nightkill is broken overpowered and town need powerful tools of their own to counteract it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Honestly nightkills are a disgustingly toxic mechanic and social deduction is better off without it. The end goodbye.

[RadiantCowbells]

vmB more like mvP