Mini 701 - That's a Wrap! (Game Over)
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Now you can: a summary!
Page one: random voting... Vollkan and Ecto try to get the game going.
page two: discussion, yay!
I very much like Ecto's post (41). I think he got it right.ortolan wrote:Interesting theory discussion.
1. antitownvollkan wrote:Let me try questioning more directly:
1) What is your opinion of my self-vote: pro-town, anti-town, scummy, neutral?
2) Why?
3) Are the arguments people are making not relevant for determining alignment?
2. it could give newbies like me a wrong impression of you, it could give a theory-discussion. It could result in a wrong lynch. The third point is unavoidable by any play, the first and second can be. The game is about lynching scum, and until now, I can't even say who is more likely town, and who is more likely scum.
3. so, ehh, no.
I have to agree with vollkan on gut-votes. It is just an easy way for scum to mislynch.
page 3: SpyreX doesn't like Ecto's aggressiveness and thinks him scummy for that. Weak reason... Yet I have read 2 games with Ecto, and in both he proved to be a very good scum player. This is something I can't say anything about now.
Why is Springlullaby following Spyrex (she says Ecto is scummy), but votes Vollkan?
page 4: I don't like the discussion what the attacker and the defender should do. I skipped it.
vote Springlullabyfor bandwagoning (although she didn't vote Ecto). The closest I can get to a non-random vote.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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The post I reacted on. I thought this a weak post, because:springlullaby wrote:
Lol, at least you seem to be consistent with yourself.vollkan wrote:
Hi springlullaby,
Unvote, Vote: vollkan
IMO self-vote is clearly antitown because random votes, beside the joke-ness, is meant to signify a willingness to catch scum. Self-vote however is an entirely selfish act, which give nothing about yourself and who you are willing to vote. However I do think that given the present state of the meta, even though the 'you have no proof you can't lynch me' state of mind is IMO best left to scum, people who self vote are equally likely to be scum than town.
What is left is judging the self voter's character. I think you may just be pretentious enough to be the type to play on the 'you can't prove what I did is bad' thing.
Vote Vollkan
You've been talking lot, tell me, have you gained any insight on people's alignment from your discussion?
That said, I also don't like Ectomancer, there is something muffled in his toeing the line of aggression with Vollkan.
a. What is the purpose of this vote? She doesn't seem to be serious to attack Vollkan, and pressuring isn't going to work here.
b. She keeps the options open to choose Ecto, the other side of the discussion. Yet, why is Ecto scummy? She only follows Spyrex. Did you really think I would vote for someone just because that person had two suspects?
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Vote Count - Day 1 - As of Post 74
With 10 alive, 6 votes is majority.
Mama_KuJuls- 0 ()
orangepenguin - 1 (Spyrex)
ortolan - 0 ()
RealityFan - 0 ()
springlullaby - 1 (ortolan)
Ectomancer - 0 ()
vollkan - 2 (mrfixij, springlullaby)
SpyreX - 1 (Ectomancer)
mrfixij - 1 (vollkan)
TDC - 0 ()
Not Voting - 4 (orangepenguin, Mama_KuJuls, TDC, mykonianRealityFan)
Also, I updated the vote count in the first post of page 4 to incorporate Mama_Ku. Juls's vote on orangepenguin no longer exists.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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First, I really don't see the big problem with Ecto's play. I think he has been quite reasonable. I don't think Vollkan could pull the breaks. After such a big discussion, where he keeps disagreeing with Ecto, his only option was to vote Ecto.
Vollkan, you disagree with that one sentence, and I know I should have posted it some other way. But do you also disagree with the explanation of that sentence?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Let her post the reasons for it, not simply follow Spyrex in case there are not enough votes on you! She has just chosen the two persons that make this game now, that argue, and she does like she chooses a side, yet I don't know what to make of her vote against you (is it even serious). If the general opinion shifts against Ecto, she has kept all her options open, because she found Ecto scummy.
And about your vote against Ecto. I thought that from previous experience. Two townies had a big discussion day one, and it wasn't resolved. It determined the play throughout the day. I expected at least one vote from you or Ecto for the other.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I thought this sentence:TDC wrote:
How did you conclude that she wasn't serious (for page three standards) about it?mykonian wrote: The post I reacted on. I thought this a weak post, because:
a. What is the purpose of this vote? She doesn't seem to be serious to attack Vollkan, and pressuring isn't going to work here.I think you may just be pretentious enough to be the type to play on the 'you can't prove what I did is bad' thing.
comments are ok, but why is she suspecting Ecto? She only keeps the option of following Spyrex in case Ecto gets into trouble.TDC wrote:
But if she has two suspects, what's wrong about voting one and commenting about the other?b. She keeps the options open to choose Ecto, the other side of the discussion. Yet, why is Ecto scummy? She only follows Spyrex. Did you really think I would vote for someone just because that person had two suspects?
and I have already said that this isn't a strong vote, it was just the best thing I could go on. The discussion between Ecto and Vollkan doesn't help me to determine allignment. Spyrex his vote wasn't so scummy to me. He basically does the same as I did, making a weak vote.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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@springlullaby: could you explain why you are voting Vollkan then?
could you also point out why your suspicious of Ecto (quote?)
I found your accusation of Ecto quite similar to that of Spyrex, only then in one sentence, just after you have voted Vollkan, and I think I don't understand why you voted him. And please, don't be irritated... I just want to know why you think people suspicious, because:
1. I should know about a good case, so I can vote too.
2. Scum have to lie about there reasons. The more scum lies, the easier to catch them.
I'm just suspicious of every suspicion without a reason. Like gut votes, or "I think Ecto is too aggressive" without any quotes, and explanation why it is scummy.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Man, massive posts! I admit they scare me.
But here I go.
I can see the words hollow rhetoric as gut. Maybe you don´t feel that way, but it seems you are talking between each other, because:vollkan wrote:
You're completely wrong here. My attack on your "How" was an attack upon the way that you presented your case - strong rhetoric which ends up being just hollow rhetoric. That isn't scummy for "gut" reasons. It's scummy because it reflects a lack of sincere critical analysis on your own part about possible motivations for my actions.Ecto wrote: What I find ironic in this is that I took the early position that 'gut feelings" are a perfectly acceptable manner of playing mafia. Both Vollkan and Spyrex took opposition to that form of play. But when pressed, the actual reasons they give are what boils down to "gut feelings".
"It wasn't what he did, it was how he did it".
Argue otherwise if you would like, but when others do not agree with your assessment there, what it comes down to is that your gut doesn't agree with how I did what I did. I know it galls you to hear it, but your assessment of my alignment comes down to an entirely debatable "gut feeling". As I said, they can be valid, so I dont discount it as a reasoning at all. I just find it funny that you would discount it if it were coming from someone else.
You could see the first sentence as playing by "gut". Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with this one, but it isn't like Ecto is completely unreasonable like some people say.vollkan wrote:
In a game of incomplete information, there is always going to be a need for inferences to be drawn (nobody can ever prove that a certain action is definitely scummy). As I have done in my argument against you. The point is, however, that inferences have to be based on a genuine analysis of various possible explanations and likelihoods and so on. That's in stark contrast to a suspicion based purely on "gut". Maybe the "gut" has gone through the inferring process - and maybe it hasn't. That's the problem with basing a case on "like", "feeling", "gut" etc.
Could you explain to me what the big point is here? It seems to come back a few times, but I don't see the relevance to a scum player.SpyreX wrote:The implication of "the enemy" sets a tone for it. It wasn't "this statement could be causing confusion" or "Your self vote is confusing"
It was: The enemy loves confusion after the implication that his voting himself was, in fact, confusing. Thus, he would be the enemy, no?
After a whole post of "I am right and you are not", Spyrex votes, warning us not to call it OMGUS.
Why not? The whole post screams "OMG ECTO YOU SUCK". Why can't we scream back? Your attack on Ecto wasn't bad after your play, but you don't want to say, that all you posted there proved that Ecto is scum?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mod, you missed my vote on Springlullaby
but it doesn't matter:unvote vote SpyreX
See the previous post why. Your post simply didn't make any sense to me, and still you manage to say it is the case against Ecto for you.
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Vote Count - Day 1 - As of Post 124
With 10 alive, 6 votes is majority.
Mama_KuJuls- 0 ()
orangepenguin - 0 ()
ortolan - 0 ()
RealityFan - 0 ()
springlullaby - 1 (ortolan)
Ectomancer - 2 (vollkan, Spyrex)
vollkan - 1 (springlullaby)
SpyreX - 3 (mykonian, mrfixij, Ectomancer)
mrfixij - 0 (vollkan)
TDC - 0 ()
Not Voting - 3 (orangepenguin, Mana_KuJuls, TDC)
If I get no response from Mana_Ku within 24 hours, I will be forced to find a replacement. It's better now than too late in the game.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I think it is wrong. I have seen points going from shifting the others point, to theory discussion what is gut. Kinda agreeing with each other, but using different words so there is a little difference. To your "tone of the attacks". To me the last was only an the common " scum like confusion" but in other words.
You are going after Ecto, seemingly only because he opposes some of your idea's. I think that is wrong, even if you thought you didn't do it.
In my second completed game, a newby had a big discussion day one with an other player. He countinued to find that player scummy, and as you well know, when you want to find something scummy about a player, you are going to find it. It lost town the game.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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It wouldn't be my choice of a case. I don't think it should be yours. That's all.
I think this whole discussion to be weird. It is mostly about theory (the self vote, what is "gut") and there are only a few people actively posting. Personally, as noob, I'm quite scared by the huge posts, but what I get from them, doesn't seem to be worth the effort, as it doesn't tell me a lot about the game itself. From that, people suddenly find scum. That is why I vote.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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[quote="TDC"
I don't know.. do long exchanges like this evermykonian wrote:I think this whole discussion to be weird. It is mostly about theory (the self vote, what is "gut") and there are only a few people actively posting. Personally, as noob, I'm quite scared by the huge posts, but what I get from them, doesn't seem to be worth the effort, as it doesn't tell me a lot about the game itself. From that, people suddenly find scum. That is why I vote.notlead to the participants voting for each other?[/quote]
Vollkan says your statement is wrong, I am afraid it is happening here, but I don't have the experience to tell if it is always the fact. I would love to have the discussion shift to "who is scum" in stead of theory. It really doesn't help.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I have a hard time following this guys. Posts are just a little to big.
I missed it, and it is more your perception of Ecto's play (let's call it "gut")vollkan wrote: The tone of the attacks is relevant because, if you missed it, it shows that Ecto was speaking from a prejudiced position.
I should vote Ortolan if I want to be consistent, butFoS Ortolan, I don't like people saying: "I agree, but I don't understand all that happens. Vote". Yet I have to agree with you, it is hard to find anything usefull in this.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I have to agree with orto that the length of posts just blinds me from any tells. Some people don´t know what a small post is.
Here we go again.
I appoligise for annoying you. I'm afraid I knew that could happen. Still I don't agree with you. You simply explain Ecto's behaviour, without any points why. Just saying that I shouldn't have missed it. You avoid proof that way. More people go after Ecto because he is "too agressive". Also explaining the behaviour, without telling where, and if this is scummy.vollkan wrote:mykonian wrote:
I have a hard time following this guys. Posts are just a little to big.
vollkan wrote:
The tone of the attacks is relevant because, if you missed it, it shows that Ecto was speaking from a prejudiced position.
I missed it, and it is more your perception of Ecto's play (let's call it "gut")
Look, the way that people keep trying to draw an equivalence between inferences and "gut" is incredibly frustrating.
Mykonian, when a person only justifies something by "gut" or "because I think it's scummy" they provide no objective explanation. When I say it shows prejudice I am drawing an inference based on, variously, the words he used, his subsequent remarks, etc etc. I am not saying "My gut tells me Ecto is doing this". I am giving reasons that the rest of you can follow.
Go right back to my policy list. I don't require scientific proof that a person is scum in order to justify an attack, but I do require objective reasons. Inferences are fine, provided bases are given. Simply saying "gut" or "feeling" lacks any objective explanation.
So end the equivalencing, okay?
And Ecto's point with the sheep is valid. It is not weird people would pick on you, because you made yourself special. The reactions from you that followed Ecto thought scummy (I really don't know if agree with them, seem weak), not the vote itself. Your defense assumes he votes for the selfvote.
Even if OP can't point the finger to it, and I can't too, I feel the orto wagon went too fast. Not right on this moment. It is on weak reasons, bad posts from orto.
Orto, post 178 is from the start just plain unreadeble. I don't know how to say it in English, but the form doesn't make it clear. First sentence is good, but are you advocating that the first day you shouldn't try your best to lynch scum?
Conlusion: I wasn't too sure about Spyrex, and Orto looks scummy, yet I feel the wagon on orto is going to fast to be healthy. I keep my eye on you both.unvoteSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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If you give valid reasons why you do something (vote/unvote/FoS), nobody will attack you. With your vote, the "valid reasons" part lacked. So you are attacked.vollkan wrote:
A reductio ad absurdum of your confirmation bias argument would lead to the conclusion that we shouldn't expect any votes to be justified, since people are ultimately just voting based on emotional presuppositions. The assertion that we are all playing according to subsconscious biases is unfalsifiable. If this game is to be anything other than just a random slew of votes, we need to play on the presumption that we are all acting rationally. That means that proper reasoning is required from all players. If a player cannot show that they are actually thinking about who is scum, then the most reasonable conclusion will ordinarily be that they are themselves scum.ortolan wrote: As I said, I had, at the time, a slight preference for Ectomancer. I was then asked to justify it, so tried. I believe there's a psychological phenomenon whereby if people believe something, irrespective of whether it has any factual basis, they will attempt to rationalise it by coming up with supporting arguments. I'm also of the belief that some people often go on hunches or even more sophisticated reasoning than that they actually announce to the town- because there's certain accepted conventions in mafia that irrationally make some ways of argument more "accepted" than others. One example is putting a vote on an existing bandwagon without what is felt as acceptable reasoning by others, as I did. Then if you stay on it, you're asked to give better reasoning. If you unvote, you're portrayed as distancing yourself from your initial vote. So it can often almost directly lead to your own lynch, just as for example self-voting can in other games (sometimes even if done during the random phase).
The first quote is mine too, not ecto's. And of course you say the reasons against you are weak, but I'm sorry, we can see that different (I don't say I do, I just have no read on you). But you made yourself "special" by the selfvote, and you get attention for that.vollkan wrote:
This isn't true.ecto wrote:
And Ecto's point with the sheep is valid. It is not weird people would pick on you, because you made yourself special. The reactions from you that followed Ecto thought scummy (I really don't know if agree with them, seem weak), not the vote itself. Your defense assumes he votes for the selfvote.
As I have said repeatedly now, I don't take opposition to self-voting as a scumtell (that would be absurd). Ecto challenging my self-vote was not scummy in and of itself. What followed, and the reason I challenged his question requiring an explanation, was to see why he thought that self-voting needed justification. As I have said, it became apparent that his attack was all bark and no bite.
If we then apply that later evidence back to the initial question, we see that the initial questioning of the self-vote, it becomes apparent that, whilst somebody might have legitimately been inquiring for good reasons, Ecto was not.
How do you reason that it went "too fast"? It hasn't had a conclusion yetmykonian wrote:
Even if OP can't point the finger to it, and I can't too, I feel the orto wagon went too fast. Not right on this moment. It is on weak reasons, bad posts from orto.
And what about the reasons do you consider weak?
The orto bandwagon is going too fast, because within a few posts 3 votes are on him for a weak reasoned vote. With me it would make 4, or L-2. It could very well be a newby mistake (it quite looks like that to me).
lol, this is clearly not my quote Vollkan... I don't think I ever used the words "internally consistent", "coherent", "device" or "subjective determination" in any mafia game. Clearly Ecto's.vollkan wrote:
This is also very relevant to springlullaby's case against me:mykonian wrote:
It's speculation about my motives rather than any coherent and internally consistent case for me being mafia.
I could say for example "vollkan's gambit was intended purely so he would have a device for continually launching suspicion on different people- firstly he could launch suspicion on those who called him on his self-vote, then he could launch suspicion on those who called the caller on his self-vote etc., basically a mafia's dream". However this is just an interpretation. It is ironic however that the people who attack me either aren't aware of or deliberately ignore the fact that what I am being attacked for- making a subjective determination, is exactly what they're doing in attacking me, they're just better at pretending they're not being subjective.
(The statement I quoted was "Two non joke votes, two vote that sucks." and asked for an explanation for it)
ok, that semi-claim seems to confirm orto. I would believe them.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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bolded is mine.vollkan wrote:
Who is this addressed to?Mykonian wrote: If you give valid reasons why you do something (vote/unvote/FoS), nobody will attack you. With your vote, the "valid reasons" part lacked. So you are attacked.
to orto. I tried to explain what went wrong in his reasoning. He said he was pretty unable to vote, or unvote because everything looked scummy.
I assume you mean Ecto's reasons for opposing the self-vote. This isn't simply a matter of opinion, he gave no reasons other than what was, effectively, "I dun' like it".Mykonian wrote: The first quote is mine too, not ecto's. And of course you say the reasons against you are weak, but I'm sorry, we can see that different (I don't say I do, I just have no read on you). But you made yourself "special" by the selfvote, and you get attention for that.
Being special doesn't mean justification is required.
being special means you are looked at. After that, Ecto thought you scummy, for reasons you think not valid. After that, you vote him. (I'm not going to say OMGUS). That you don't see the reasons for a vote on you is allright, but it is not like you are going to say they would be good.
Simply stating the speed of the wagon doesn't demonstrate it is going "too fast".Mykonian wrote: The orto bandwagon is going too fast, because within a few posts 3 votes are on him for a weak reasoned vote. With me it would make 4, or L-2. It could very well be a newby mistake (it quite looks like that to me).
(The reason I labour this point is that it is very common for scum to snipe at a wagon from outside with such attacks. That isn't an accusation against you; it's simply to explain why I consider this an important enough matter to discuss)
I'm not going to put a someone on day 1 within 1 page. Also, that Orto's vote looked like a newby mistake (be honest, an experienced player would never have done it, and if orto-scum did it on purpose, he would be a great player), and that most of it was based on one piece of evidence didn't convince me. I'm happy that orto would prove mason. That would solve this whole thing.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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we all love you for it
I got also a few things that make me think that the masons are true, but TDC's post says it a lot better. I don't believe they are scum. Now is the time for you to play and find scum. You have little to fear now, only nightkills. With a doctor in the setup, you could become pretty important.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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This is where orto would react with, If you do one thing, you are scum, if you don't do it, you are scum, and if you keep quiet, you are lurking scum. I have given my reasons why I thought a quick bandwagon on a small reason was wrong and why I wouldn't participate in it. Did you like them? If not, explain why, and maybe I can clear things up.Ectomancer wrote:
I don't believe I have yet advocated lynching Vollkan.mykonian wrote:Do we really have no other idea's then vote ecto, or vote vollkan? As good as it started, voting for the major players is still kind of random.
If we assume the two O's are town, then scum would have known it. Not recalling who brought it up at the time, I would wonder about quick votes on the wagon, or of course, the person who first complained that the wagon was "building too fast".Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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How about the scum that kept quiet and didn't talk about it? the lurkers, or the active lurkers, the people that don't talk about the important topic, afraid to show there allignment. Now you can easily say: everybody that reacted was wrong. Indeed, I was just as wrong the people that were on the bandwagon. I thought orto scummy too, who didn't? But within one page bringing a person at l-2, that is barely town. As long as there is no deadline close, you got to discuss who you want to lynch, not just do it quick "I think orto scummy because of that awful vote". Or even better "he doesn't defend his point good", and still better "now he gets under pressure, he retracts his point"
Kinda obvious isn't it? His vote was weak, and when people pointed this out, THERE WAS NO DEFENSE. He knew it too. So what does a logical player do? He says:"sorry guy's I was wrong...". And some people manage to make that a scumtell. He would be so scum when he had actively defended his point, and not retracted it.
I know the above is WIFOM, but thinking about it is way better then screaming "OBV SCUM, vote orto".
I know it better, if I said this earlier, the only thing scum would do was screaming: "WIFOM, let him answer for himself, 2 obv scum!", to completely deny the point.
But after this happened, like Ecto said, we should look at what happened around it, and just blindly go back to the big players, the people that actually made this game the first pages. It is too easy, and has little basis. I know it isn't always right, maybe even wrong, but I like active players better then lurkers.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Could be. I'm not very good on English, so maybe I stated it a bit weird. Could you quote the part you don't understand, then I can try say it in different words.mrfixij wrote: @ Mykonian: Your last paragraph is also confusing, I can't help but feel that you made a typo there and skewed what you meant to say, because I don't get it.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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Vollkan, ever lynched someone meta based day 1? But I have to say, on this moment, you could either be town, or scum hiding behind nice words and pretty logic. A logic player is very hard to catch, as you can vote for a towny based on logic pretty easily. Expect my vote on you, when your logic is wrongSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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To react on mrfixij, I put my views on mafia:
1. Lurkers are more dangerous then active players, because you can't get a good read at lurkers. Active players, however good they are, can always be more or less protown.
2. active players are looked at more. By posting more, you can find more small "tells", assuming you can find a tell in everything. Attacking an active player for a lot of very small reasons, is just as usefull as attacking a lurker for a little amount of very small reasons. You shouldn't do the last, you shouldn't do the first. Ecto's and Vollkans posts are looked over closely by everyone, and of course you find things against them. That doesn't mean it is reasonable to vote them for that. I think the cases are weak. No wonder Orto couldn't find any better, because there is no good case on the moment. Don't pretend there is one.
3. logic in this game is always based on assumptions. You can choose them right, you can choose them wrong. There will be many reasonable assumptions. The logic that follows can be right, and nobody will find something there. A logic scum player can post his wrong assumption so that everyone will think it natural. That's why a player who's play is mainly based on logic close to unreadable.
I think I have read two games of vollkan. In both he was town, but if he plays just like that as scum, he can be antitown without us noticing it.
I have also read two games of Ecto, in both he was scum. If he plays always like that we will catch him soon enough. In both he hammered a uncounterclaimed powerrole... But more dangerous, in both he got away with it.
In both cases, I think meta won't help me.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I would say, "leading the wrong way". That's why we need to look at what happened around your bandwagon. At least four people reacted on it. The way we are going now is helping more. That's why I don't like people going back to their old votes. Just because that voted originated from a discussion that wasn't about scumhunting and that those votes were clearly just for the people that talked the most.orto wrote:I find it hard to believe that such an intelligent player as vollkan wouldn't recognise that a discussion like that, verbose as it was, was ultimately leading nowhere.
@vollkan: If you know which assumptions are wrong, and which are right, I know you could pick out the best wrong one and show us that it was the best.
autolynching vollkan is wrong. A. He is valuable as town: he talks a lot, and gathers a lot information out of the game. B there is no case against him, only that his scumplay would likely look like his town play.
I thought your defense weird, vollkan. well, defense... You seemed to attack orto more. A claimed, and likely mason. Seemed the wrong way.orto wrote:I was discussing why there is a need for reasons - to expose underlying assumptions. Your post, in contrast, was attacking my suggestion that lack of reasons is scummy and casting an assertion that my logical play was a ploy. That's only tangentially relevant to the point I was making.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Ecto, I feel that the same applies to you, that there is little difference between town ecto, and scum ecto. (based on reading games)
But doesn't everybody know that meta is not a very strong way of research. You have to get scum on the way they choose. If vollkan scum makes a habit of making bad choices, then we lynch him. If vollkan makes a lot of good choices, we lynch him in the end just after his buddies. That is the way you can get every scum.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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If vollkan made the towniest choice everytime as scum, he is going to have a very hard game. assuming we find him sometime we lynch him in the end. Scum is not exactly as town, because certain choices affect the outcome of the game.Ectomancer wrote:
Wait, if Vollkan makes bad choices, we lynch him, but if he makes good choices, you still plan to lynch him in the end? On what grounds?mykonian wrote:Ecto, I feel that the same applies to you, that there is little difference between town ecto, and scum ecto. (based on reading games)
But doesn't everybody know that meta is not a very strong way of research. You have to get scum on the way they choose. If vollkan scum makes a habit of making bad choices, then we lynch him. If vollkan makes a lot of good choices, we lynch him in the end just after his buddies. That is the way you can get every scum.
scum wants the antitown choice, and will try to make the town choose that. (here we can catch scum). But if they want to look towny, they are actually choosing the choice that makes them less likely to win! To look at the extreme: If scum made town vote his scumbuddies the first days, he would look very town, but would he win the game?
I hope this answers your question. It isn't important, and quite obvious.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I'm tired and will look at this later. Just too big posts for me on the moment, but this is important for orto:
really, he is right on this one. On the moment I can't understand and look at everything he said in a scumhunting manner, but the statement above is very true. I don't know if you are, and if you are you still won't know it yourself, but watch out for it.vollkan wrote:I am also not suggesting that you are motivated purely by revenge. I am saying that your perspective on me may be tainted by revenge - that you might be prejudiced against me based on my prior attacks on you.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Am I the only one that thinks it weird that mrfixij suddenly goes after spring for a weak reason after spyrex has promised a case?
I agree with this point:
Spring votes vollkan, but fos'es ecto, without a reason for the last.spyrex wrote:3.) She parrots my sentiment of Ecto's aggressiveness.
Most of the case seems to come from small contradictions, and the rather weak reasons for suspicion on some players.
I can't check this, but from feeling I also got the idea that OP and Orto would have lurked. You are right about town killing itself, IF vollkan and ecto are town. The starting discussion was a lot of activity, but it really killed. Suspicions only went to the main players, and it was hard to get between them. Orto and I have complaned that it is sometimes hard to read those massive posts, and they don't invite to posting. I think you would find the lurking with more players then SL. The first part of your case was better.
I don't get all the things said about Ecto and Vollkan being scum together. It would solve our problem rather easily, but I really doubt it.I see now that spolium kinda says what I think
I think that people who's votes suck are scum.
mrfixij is says the case on spring is quite solid. I don't agree. There are good points, but I'm certainly going to look at you.fos mrfixij.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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SpyreX wrote:
Yes and no. 'Suck' is a very relative term. People who votes for reasons X,Y,Z when none of theI think that people who's votes suck are scum.reasonsmake sense are scum. Thats part of this whole 'gut' discussion - people who vote for 'gut' are voting for a reason that cannot by nature be analyzed and that makes them scummy.
we agree completely
Ohh there are more players that are lurking. There is also a direct correlation between the players that are lurking AND the players that SL didn't mention. I cant go chasing them all around until I have proven my hypothesis correct with SL being scum however.I think you would find the lurking with more players then SL. The first part of your case was better.
here the sheep metaphor works again. People that are active are more talked about. That is partially the use of lurking. I would have been surprised if SL talked about a lurker constantlySurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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doesn´t unfalsible mean that you can´t prove it is wrong?
You are way to late to call the selfvote of spring confusing now. It had its purpose, but didn't alter the play.
and let's put some meta in. Previous game we lynched spring day 1, and for as I recall much the same reasons. I don't think we should do this fast...
Also, I have not read all the large new posts. It is a bit too late, and I couldn't comprehend everything.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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come on, you know that this is not inconsistebt. He is just explaining his thouhtprocess. He doesn´t say he has reasons for a vote on mrfixij, only that he is going to look for reasons that could explain his feeling about mrfixij.ortolan wrote:Dare I say it, but I have a strange gut feeling about Ixfij. By no means am I saying he is suspicious or anything, but it is my intention to reread him more closely in the near future to work out why I am worried.
This is your most shameless inconsistency yet.Conjecture - I have much disdain for this category. This includes things like "gut" (when used as a justification for suspicion/vote), a declaration that "something seems fishy/ungenuine/etc." The reason is simple: claims of this nature CANNOT be challenged or rendered unreasonable. They depend entirely upon what the individual making the claim thinks (or, in the case of scum, purports to think). I cannot prove I am not "ungenuine", for instance, or even prove that is not a reasonable explanation. Because it is one wholly subjective interpretation of my play.
And please don't say "I didn't actually say he was scummy, I said I'd read into him further". You made a very, very deliberate choice to say emphatically you get a strange "gut" reading from mrfixij, without backing it up. Why? We have little interest in hearing about your private introspection, and as you say anything announced without explanation amounts to conjecture, which you despise. Why did you say this rather than wait until you could actually dredge up the "reasons" underlying your gut suspicion of him?
I have no idea what to do with the previous post from vollkan. It tells me nothing...Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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wasn´t springs selfvote a protest vote against vollkan?
Springs defense seems right. I still don't really know why there is such a big case against him. Most point boil down to: "you work too much on gut", or "you are inconsistent". I personally don't like the lurking part, because that would mean a big part of this town could be scum.
Spring is actually attacked for his view on the random-voting stage. It was just his personal input to the game, with no consequenses and I really have no idea how that ever could be a scumtell.
Saying that there was an option of ecto and vollkan both were scum also worked against her. Most people here think it unlikely, but when she doesn't continue the point she is thought scummy. Not a scumtell to post possibilities that you think unlikely yourself, actually a little protown in this case.
and the poor spyrex is confused by the selfvote...
after all this, spyrex says "obv lurker scum!" and we have a new bandwagon. Don't expect me on it.
wow, what a post from orto! (324). I'm going to read that closely later.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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You know just as well as I know that I never tried to strawman you, I just not copied the whole of your case, I reacted on the points where I don't agree with you. You know just like me, that the case is mainly build on theory discussion, the use of gut. SL has given to little reasons (or bad ones) for her voting. that is scummy. However, giving a possibility and not following it is not scummy, and that selfvote is not a contradiction. You say: SL said selfvoting is antitown
SL selfvotes
SL must be scum.
It doesn't work that way. SL's selfvote can't be compared with vollkans, as it was a reaction. Now that I pointed that out, you throw some words at me, do cynical, but there is no way that this is scummy. This is a null-tell, and a clear one. That you missed that once can be forgiven, but that you want to defend it is bad, and that you say that I shifted your point is a lie. I never said SL's lurking was your main point, you used it only as support. What I said was, that when you leave the theory discussion and the selfvote out and other contradictions in her play (the vollkan-ecto scum thing) you are only left with the weak reasons for her vote and her lurking. That is not a strawman, that is my opinion of your case, and if you don't like it, so be it.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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ok. I can see how you read that as a strawman. It was not the intention. I told you what I thought of that argument in isolation. That its support to your case couldn't be big.
there is no final part. The lurking and the weak reasons for her votes are there. However, you come up with a really big case, where I think a lot of points are null-tells used as scumtells, and I don't agree. Lurking, the selfvoting (vollkan's really is something different then springs), maybe more. I think you really believe spring to be scum, and when you think that you are going to see scumtells everywhere. You are not my main target in this. mrfixij is. He jumped on spring in a very ugly manner. Voted after you, provided his reasons after you. Copied most of your case, and added his own weak scumtells to it.
I can't see scum be that obvious, so if mrfixij is scum, you are probably not.unvote vote mrfixijSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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about mrfixij.
post 291: spyrex votes spring, tells us something big is coming.
post 292/293: mrfixij votes spring for voting reasons, quite random from that post. Same reasons would have counted for spyrex, yet he says he'll stop going after spyrex. mrfixij waits for spyrex's case.
post 294: spyrex his big case
some talking about it.
post 304: mrfixij likes spyrex's case (we could guess that...)
post 307: I state that I don't like mrfixij's play around the case of spyrex.
post 313: finally mrfixij's reasons for his vote. partly copied from spyrex, following him, mrfixij added: inventing new words for bad reasons, springs nonchalange, timing of mid day voting (if vollkan had been lynched, spring would have been on a scummy place...), another "shocking contradiction". After that he comes up with some points against spyrex.
Now you say: you can't vote me for bad timing, as springs was bad too.
Guess what, I can. Spring would be in the middle of a bandwagon, if vollkan had been lynched. Too many possibilities. You hopped on a wagon, that didn't need to be logical for you, and you tried to go with the flow, and follow spyrex until I told you I didn't like it. After that, you come with your "reasons" that consist mostly out of spyrex's case, and the weak reasons stated above.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I'm sorry, I got the word, misspelled it.
your quick defense was indeed not good. The timing of spring is something different then your hopping on spyrex's case, without giving any reason, until you were pointed at that. Then, the reasons you presented, looked a lot like spyrex his, added a few weak tell (I think I addressed them shortly in the previous post). On the moment you vote, you give one reason, the fact that youassumemakes you conclude that one of vollkan, spyrex or spring must be scum.
Don't blame me for thinking it is weird that you said:
and I know your timing isn't defendable, so would hammering a claimed cop be. It is something that has been done, and it is something that scum would do. I'm sorry to disappoint you here...I think after Vollkan's point about the subjective logic for her vote on Ort, it's good enough for me to abandon my vote on Spyre and at least see what comes from Spyre.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Yes, I don't agree with everybody just following spyrex.
vollkan, ecto and mrfixij just see a big post, with lot of argument, and they hop on the bandwagon. Is it so hard just to check out how valid the points against spring are? Yes, his votes haven't been that strong, but really, is selfvoting to make a point and accusing vollkan of starting with a selfvote such a contradiction? I can't see town people make a point of it.
based on meta: last game I was in with spring, he got lynched the same way day one. He actually was spot on with finding scum, he only put his reasons the wrong way, and he found scum out of small tells. I and more people didn't believe him, saw his votes the wrong way, and we had our first mislynch.
I don't want to make the same mistake again, and I see history repeating itself here.
Just look at the way mrfixij and to lesser extend vollkan hop on. Now ecto is doing the same. You just say: these three people I want to be lynched. No reason, nothing. In case more people vote spring, you can just hop on. In case I can convince town in voting mrfixij, you can say you agreed all the way. I also would like to hear what you think scummy about me. I am certain I can explain it.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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you know I don't agree with the adding up part . But anyway, you did the best job of the people I named. How mrfixij hopped on was really ugly, and until ecto explains why he is doing it now also, it is the same.vollkan wrote:Myk wrote: vollkan, ecto and mrfixij just see a big post, with lot of argument, and they hop on the bandwagon. Is it so hard just to check out how valid the points against spring are? Yes, his votes haven't been that strong, but really, is selfvoting to make a point and accusing vollkan of starting with a selfvote such a contradiction? I can't see town people make a point of it.
It's really rather a mischaracterisation to say that Ecto, Ixfij and myself just hopped on a wagon after seeing a "big post". I went through the reasons (many of which I had expressed previously myself), and found they added up.
To me mrfix stands out. I will vote him. there are a few people I have no read on: spolium, vollkan and TDC. Ecto is not helping my view about him, I thought him protown earlier. orangepenguin is lucky he is a mason, because his play hasn´t helped us a bit. orto, your play has improved after you got confirmed, well done.
I mainly got to see what happens with the lynched person, and what happens at night, to find a top 3 scummy players.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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ok, lets see if I can answer this.
I didn't defend myself, because there was no case yet. I stated I thought it weird, but waited for this. Mrfixij I vote, not just because he votes spring, but the way he jumps on the wagon. Could you please look at that again?
And tell me, why would I vote Spyrex? because he makes a case? because he believes he is right? I would think it very unlikely that both Spyrex and Mrfixij were scum, Mrfixij is very scummy in my eyes, so Spyrex is not very suspected. Also, Spyrex got this town alive again, posted a big case (doesn't matter if I don't agree with him), clear pro-town behaviour.
It is true I didn't like that vote of spring in the start, and I still don't like it. but like I said:
and like I stated, that makes most of the case, joined by lurking. People jump too easily on that. The "contradiction" you think you have found, is not really there, but still it is the point that keeps returning against spring.The closest I can get to a non-random vote.
You ask me where that turnabout comes from. I think it happened a bit unconcious. Between my "fos" against spring, and spyrex his case, the game spring and I were in ended, and after game discussion started. The point how we (and me in special) were wrong (you won't find how I was wrong, but I felt like I was the person that started it) came across there. I don't know how to post links, so it is in the game C9++, and if you isolate at me, from post 59 you can find most of the case. A bit of a weak vote, a small contradiction, some bad used words, and using votecounts got spring lynched. Look what happens now. It is so similar.
But is also that I just don't agree with most of the case that spyrex posted. Small things about it I do agree with, but it is not as strong as it looks. But in stead of discussion the strength of the case, people hop on easily. You certainly don't want me to let that happen?
I've been accused of this before, of defending an other person, and I have sometimes defended the wrong person, but I'm not going to sit and watch a lynch happen based on a case that I don't agree with like it seems to be expected. It looks like it is not appropriate do discuss a case. I don´t know if I want to change my play in this, although it gives me pretty much every game problems day 1. I know you don´t have much to go on day 1, but still you can try to make the best of it, and I feel we won´t with a lynch of spring. mrfixij is much more scummy on his own, and plz don't strawman me by saying that I vote him for voting spring, I vote him because of the way he voted.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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pfff. That last point of you, I really got to think about that. I don't think scum-mrfixij would have thought about it, but I will look at it tomorrow. It's too late for that now. Maybe I place this vote back tomorrow, butunvote.
And you are again turning a minor point, into a major contradiction. You are comparing the stance I take, day 1, in my first post, with the stance I take on page 13. Do I have to stick with my first impression? I certainly hope I can change my opinion about someone.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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...
You know meta wasn't the first thing I had against the case, I have pointed out why most of the arguments against spring were null-tells. I said only lurking and a weak vote I saw left of the case after I let those "null-tells" out.
A weak case was left, and then, only then I used meta to explain why nobody should vote. As soon as you can show me why most of your case that I dismissed is valid, meta can never hold my defense against your case, and I won't try.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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spyrex, could you point out where I dismiss a major point, just like that? If I remember well, I have looked at the individual points and given my opinion of it. You should be able to tell where I went wrong.
And mrfixij: I didn't see any possibility for a gambit not that experienced as you are I guess. But anyway, why did it take so long for you to post reasons for your vote? why did you wait for someone to point out that you hadn't given any?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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@ spyrex: I can see now where you thought me using meta again. Wasn't it in the part I talked about defending some other person, and that I was attacked for it more? The point I tried to make is that I think it weird people get attacked for it, not to make that it is something that doesn't count for me only. If I were scum I would do it too.
The ideal protown group should in my eyes all come up with there own ideas, and after that try to get to some sort of consensus. A group discussed choice is most often better then any of the invidual choices. Then what needs the ideal protown group to do? They need to discuss their thoughts.
Here is the point I think we go the wrong way. Spyrex comes up with an idea, and without any questions or discussion the case is accepted. I point out where the case is not strong, and on what points it lacks. Does that mean I'm never going to vote spring? No, it means that I want to discuss the case. If Spyrex, or any other, could point out where my logic goes wrong, why those points are valid, you have a logical strong case. However, there is no discussion about what I said, only that I defended spring.
I presented something against mrfixij, he reacts that he did make a case, I say it is mainly a copy of spyrex's with 2 extra null-tells and a discussion. There it stops again, until TDC questions something about my "case". Does that mean TDC is defending mrfixij? Doesn't seem to be like that. It looks to me he is trying to make the best decision.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I was a bit vague I see. Too little words, to many generalisations. Let's do it better now. I can see why I look bad, now let's see if I can make you see my point.
You start with the selfvoting business. Spring selfvotes, and later accuses vollkan of starting with a selfvote.
You are confused by it. I say the selfvote of spring had an other purpose then that of vollkan, and there is little contradiction in this.
next in your quote of post 114 you find the above "contradiction" again. However, in this post spring weakens her own point against selfvoting. (I never brought this up before)
quote of post 144. We agreed on this one. Spring doesn't give enough reasons for his vote.
after that, spring feels the "contradiction" thing is over, but you think not.
Spring seems to be accusing orto for a weak vote from orto on spring. Anyway, even if this wouldn't be true, would you make this a scumtell?
279 is mostly a gut-vote, (maybe some problems reading vollkan, but it is not me to tell that), a few lines about his thoughts on some other players. Spring proposes a ecto-vollkan scumpair.
287. In none of his options, the ecto-vollkan scumpair exists, and we have found our second "contradiction". Further this post of spring is mostly a continuation of the previous quote. He comes with semireasons, and some feelings about vollkan. (unclear perspective, ungeniune).
289 spring talks a bit about the ecto vollkan scumpair. Spyrex sees his "contradiction"
Do you agree I won't talk about the lurking part?
So what is left is weak following of opinion at the start (not in this case, must have been somewhere else), and two weak votes. Both more gut, and shoddy reasons. And the lurking, of course, if you want to count that.
I generalized this as: mostly based on small contradictions, with some weak votes and lurking. You answered on the contradiction part, that you expected logical coherent players. We aren't all vollkans. I find it hard to explain, but do you think the selfvote of spring and his accusation of a selfvoter are connected?
Most of the direct reaction further we agree. Those votes weren't the strongest. Mainly poor worded, gut based.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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If I summarise the vollkan and spring posts like below, have I understood it?
Spring votes not on strong reasons (maybe a bit gut), but thinks vollkan must be scum for that reasons, vollkans says that spring has no reasons.
talking about the "contradiction"
theory discussion, how you should play.
On the mrfixij case: It still stays a very weird move of mrfixij, but 26 hours is not that long. Still I had to ask for a case, before it came. Would it also have come if I didn't?
Talking about that: Ecto, I have still not heard why you think spring and mrfix scummy. Could you please do something about that?
@spyrex.
selfvoters are scum.unvote vote mykonian. Would you vote me for it? Does this selfvote have the same use as that of vollkan? Would I see my selfvote as scummy? would it be part of the point I'm making. Would it be a joke? And slightly wifom, would scum be this way, putting such an obvious contradiction in play?
That would give easy to make cases. Find a slight scumtell, find a bunch of nulltells, put them together and you have your mislynch. This is my problem with your case the whole time. You have two slight scumtells, and a bunch of things that are mainly nulltells and you tell me you have found scum.spyrex wrote:Quote:
Anyway, even if this wouldn't be true, would you make this a scumtell?
Contextually, yes. It fits part of the larger puzzle. As a generality - no, but few things are.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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still my best shot would be mrfixij.
The way he jumped on your case, so fast, and then 26 hours later, after he is asked, He posts his reasons, and those reasons consist mostly out of your case, and 2 extra null-tells, and a discussion on your case. Little input, I think.
You believe your case is true, and that is fine, but why are there within a few posts 3 votes on spring. Was everybody suddenly convinced? If mrfix was so convinced, why came the reasons so late?
That is everything, I guess. I forgot to vote againvote mrfixij
and spyrex, if you made that selfvote, would you have considered yourself scummy? What would be your explanation?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I missed the softclaim.
on the self-vote, what my problem is with the whole theory, it is not that black/white as you say it is. I've been quite clear in one of my first posts that I thought self-voting antitown. I still think it is. Yet you saw me do it a few posts ago. However, would I, or should you, consider this selfvote the same selfvote I said was antitown? I think not.
Now I'm busy writing this, something is wrong here. If spring knows this, why go after vollkan? the same applies... And I know spring that you have other reasons, but if I'm right, this was your starting point for research, wasn't it?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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making yourself usefull to the game gives you towny points in my eyes... And if spyrex is scum, it is much easier to find if he posts a lot, then if he lurks.
And what about agreement with a case that is not that obvious? Personally, I would discuss it first, let spring defend, and look what I could do then. But it is easier to just hop on the bandwagon.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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from post 403
post 403. Explicit agreement is problematic, because you have no way to tell the person you agree with isn´t scum. You should make up your own mind.
post 404. Personally I don't know what the whole discussion on deductive vs inductive logic is, and it seems a lot like theory discusion, so I don't care.
I think vollkan is right in the part where orto accuses him of double standarts. There is nothing wrong with a story that explains what happened, you only got to prove that story is the most likely.
post 406. This was a pretty obvious softclaim, wasn't it? But you didn't think logically about it, because you had to follow your policy, isn't it vollkan?
post 411. And that willingness to find scum gives you at least 1 towny point.
post 412. Orto, if you got a feeling someone is scum, the correct way to play this, is to say you have that feeling, and to go search for arguments that would explain your feeling. Vollkan did it right here.
I don't care how often you use the word prejudiced, I want arguments I can look over. This doesn't tell anything.
post 413. Vollkan, there is no need to insult orto. Or you are town and you are going to argue every point with him, or you are scum that tries to do the same, because he wants to look town, but this is not the way. But you still posted it, so it has a function. I think I know how to translate it: You are wrong, because you are dumb, I don't have to argue with you.
I really don't know what to think about you vollkan. One moment you can make clear why something is right or wrong, the other moment you go to subjective argument, like you have no better. And all the theory discusion, is it really helping? From all your posts, I really have to search for the important points, because there is so much that is close to irrelevant. Is that a strategy?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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Vollkan talks too much, but other then that, he seems quite reasonable. The only weak point in it is that I feel he thinks he is above arguing with his attackers.
Spring has had a few weak votes, and went back in to lurking. Let's not make more of this case then it is.
Mrfixij. Jumped on a bandwagon, gave reasons after there was asked for it.
Mykonian. Should have sticked his first feeling, and shouldn't have tried to move the points view about a case.
I think those are the people that are in the hat now.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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