Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Frogsterking]

RVS VOTE: Aisa because Aisa-what-she-did-there.


SSS (standard survey start)

I have some ideas for changes I'd like to implement so this will likely be the last time I use this version of the SSS. I promise to protect the secrets of your mind and keep our dreams of finding scum alive. Don't miss your last chance to fill it out!

__

Rate each descriptive statement on how well it describes you using the Likert scale (1 = strongly disagree to 5 = strongly agree).

"Get angry easily" =

"Take charge" =

"Make people feel welcome" =

"Like music" =

"Like to tidy up" =

"Like to visit new places" =

"Feel comfortable around people" =

"Interested in many things" =

"Love order and regularity" =

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" =

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" =

"Cheer people up" =

"Lose my temper" =

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" =

"Enjoy thinking about things" =

"Cheat to get ahead" =

"Feel desperate" =

"Rarely overindulge" =

"Easily resist temptations" =

"Have a high opinion of myself" =

"Waste my time" =

"Need a push to get started" =

"Have little to contribute" =

"Keep my cool" =

"Avoid crowds" =

"Turn my back on others" =

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: asia


"Get angry easily" =4

"Take charge" =5

"Make people feel welcome" =5

"Like music" =4

"Like to tidy up" =3

"Like to visit new places" =5

"Feel comfortable around people" = 4

"Interested in many things" =4

"Love order and regularity" =3

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" =2

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" =2

"Cheer people up" =4

"Lose my temper" =4

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" =5

"Enjoy thinking about things" =4

"Cheat to get ahead" =1

"Feel desperate" =2

"Rarely overindulge" =3

"Easily resist temptations" =4

"Have a high opinion of myself" =4

"Waste my time" =3

"Need a push to get started" =2

"Have little to contribute" =2

"Keep my cool" =3

"Avoid crowds" =2

"Turn my back on others" =1

Thank you!

Those answers make a lot of sense based on my games with you. I think you have a similar temperament as Morning Tweet.

I had two theories about Town play for players who are both agreeable and extraverted. Your answers that indicate this for example:

Agreeable
"Make people feel welcome" =5
"Turn my back on others" =1
"Cheat to get ahead" =1

Extraverted
"Avoid crowds" =2
"Cheer people up" =4
"Feel comfortable around people" = 4

My theories are that when you're Town (and maybe scum too) you tend to rarely get scum read for your tone, and that your scum hunting skews toward establishing a Town core and finding reasons to trust certain slots, versus finding reasons to distrust certain slots and fleshing out the bottom of the PoE.

Are either of my theories true for you in your experience?

Also, you might care Klick happened to fill out this version of the survey too in a completed game:

Rate each descriptive statement on how well it describes you using the Likert scale (1 = strongly disagree to 5 = strongly agree).

"Get angry easily" = 4

"Take charge" = 1

"Make people feel welcome" = 4

"Like music" = 5

"Like to tidy up" = 1

"Like to visit new places" = 5

"Feel comfortable around people" = 1

"Interested in many things" = 2

"Love order and regularity" = 4

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 5

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 1

"Cheer people up" = 4

"Lose my temper" = 2

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 4

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 5

"Cheat to get ahead" = 2

"Feel desperate" = 3

"Rarely overindulge" = 1

"Easily resist temptations" = 1

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 2

"Waste my time" = 5

"Need a push to get started" = 5

"Have little to contribute" = 2

"Keep my cool" = 4

"Avoid crowds" = 5

"Turn my back on others" = 1

I've not read the payoff, have fun

I went back and checked his answers because I was curious lol. You guys are both high in openness to experience (intellectual curiosity, fantasy, aesthetic sensitivity, adventure, feelings) and agreeableness (compassion, cooperation, trust, honesty.)

PEdit

I'm reading Firebringer as scummy by tone. It would help if you filled out my survey, Fire.

[Frogsterking]

I'm reading Firebringer as scummy by tone. It would help if you filled out my survey, Fire.

i generally don't like being helpful so i will politely refuse.
hows ur day frogster

Okay I'll fill it out and you can tell me if anything is different. You were in a few games I read and I think we have a pretty identical temperament.

[Frogsterking]

Rate each descriptive statement on how well it describes you using the Likert scale (1 = strongly disagree to 5 = strongly agree).

"Get angry easily" = 5

"Take charge" = 2

"Make people feel welcome" = 2

"Like music" = 5

"Like to tidy up" = 1

"Like to visit new places" = 5

"Feel comfortable around people" = 1

"Interested in many things" = 5

"Love order and regularity" = 2

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 4

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 2

"Cheer people up" = 2

"Lose my temper" = 5

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 5

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 5

"Cheat to get ahead" = 4

"Feel desperate" = 5

"Rarely overindulge" = 1

"Easily resist temptations" = 1

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 4

"Waste my time" = 5

"Need a push to get started" = 5

"Have little to contribute" = 2

"Keep my cool" = 1

"Avoid crowds" = 5

"Turn my back on others" = 5

PEdit

That's boring of you and yes I'm a shady sonna' bitch

[Frogsterking]

Here's my survey. Why did you kill the innocent townsfolk last night?

It had to be done: they were carrying a lethal flesh eating virus and it was highly contagious. I saved us all.

"Get angry easily" = penguin

"Take charge" = tesla

"Make people feel welcome" = 832

"Like music" = no who does

"Like to tidy up" = no i tidy down

"Like to visit new places" = 0528

"Feel comfortable around people" = 02546897

"Interested in many things" = -09766

"Love order and regularity" = absolutely

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 420

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = im a fish

"Cheer people up" = p00568909

"Lose my temper" = 0780790u

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 0980709j8

"Enjoy thinking about things" = o9j09

"Cheat to get ahead" = uvf6556d4

"Feel desperate" = kiuj98i

"Rarely overindulge" = ,kjui77

"Easily resist temptations" = kh7g68

"Have a high opinion of myself" = uiy9898

"Waste my time" = u6f576c5

"Need a push to get started" = i76897b

"Have little to contribute" = l897h8

"Keep my cool" = kb76g

"Avoid crowds" = kuh7

"Turn my back on others" = o9n8

"Get angry easily" = Eye Of The Storm - Ace Combat 3: Electrosphere

"Take charge" = Order Yet Undeciphered - Final Fantasy XIV

"Make people feel welcome" = String Theocracy - Mili

"Like music" = Enjoy The Silence - Depeche Mode

"Like to tidy up" = Besessenheit - SaGa Frontier 2

"Like to visit new places" = Inheritors of Light - Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War

"Feel comfortable around people" = Day Scanner - Susumu Hirasawa

"Interested in many things" = eScape - Final Fantasy XIV

"Love order and regularity" = Powerlines - Tame Impala

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = Misty Rain - Megaman ZX

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = The Hounds - The Protomen

"Cheer people up" = A Solitude That Asks Nothing In Return - Guilty Gear X

"Lose my temper" = Inner Shade - The King of Fighters 2000

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = Harmonious Rock Rhyming Six Sentences - Samurai Shodown 2

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 耀く針の小人族 ～ Little Princess - Touhou 14: Double Dealing Character

"Cheat to get ahead" = Collision Chaos Present (JP) - Sonic CD

"Feel desperate" = Narcissus - Jon Hare

"Rarely overindulge" = Raiten Menimemo - One Journo's Menimemoism - The Great Ace Attorney 2: Resolve

"Easily resist temptations" = Mechanized Memories - Armored Core: Verdict Day

"Have a high opinion of myself" = Der Kommissar - After The Fire

"Waste my time" = ORIENTATION - group_inou

"Need a push to get started" = Crucifix Held Close - Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin

"Have little to contribute" = Subversive Awareness - Battle Garegga

"Keep my cool" = sea of cloud - Nujabes

"Avoid crowds" = Battle -dancing crazy murder- - Shin Megami Tensei V

"Turn my back on others" = Russia On Ice - Porcupine Tree

Hope this helps

Aww would you look at that; we've got two peas in a pod.

[Frogsterking]

can we spoiler these quotes of the long personality tests posts so its easier for me to skip over it.

Will you fill one out?

[Frogsterking]

I like Eira and Frog for early page 2 townreads.

god i got town. this game is going to be boring

seeing the playerlist this game probably wouldn't be amazingly fun in anyways.
[...]

I was going to say you're towny, too, but scratch that, I guess ;3

If the reads are logical based can you explain them, and if it's intuition based can you quote where it started and describe the feeling?

[Frogsterking]

i also want to say its not like i hate or dislike the playerlist. As you say i feel kind of meh to it because im not close to any and i don't feel my personality meshes with a few players here. So it feels like it will be a game i will enjoy less, which isn't a slight to anyone thats just my personal problem.

VOTE: Firebringer

Sounds like an excuse to not have reads.

Also I've found empirically that scum are more likely to deliberately avoid filling out my survey and act dismissive toward it.

Here you're talking about personality clashes being important to you but you're acting aloof toward filling out my survey which would verify or reject the idea that personality clashes are a legit thing here.

[Frogsterking]

I changed my mind a bit. Frog is sus, but not quite scum yet.

Yikes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Frogsterking

I feel like this is +town for Grib, this is like the quintessential townie reaction to playing with me for the first time.

[Frogsterking]

Okay, now you feel almost too scummy to be scum.

Will you tell me about your playstyle? How you tend to handle the early- mid-, and late-game? Why do people who don't know you typically scumread you, and if someone had experience with you, what would they think of your posts so far?

Sorry for the rapid-fire questions, but you intrigue me.

Aside from the questions these are all the usual beats of a townie trying really hard to sort my slot. I've been described as too-scummy-to-be-scum sounding a lot. Like, a lot.

For your questions, I have very good reads early and hit scum D1 a lot. I mostly ask questions, set up a PoE and analyze isos. So my early play is very competent. Actually, I think my early game is very good.

The problem is that other than that I tend to play pretty bad.

I'd describe my mid game (or even immediately after setting up a PoE) play as: I freak out and go on tilt and throw the game.

I think my endgame play is messy too because I can figure out who did it by then but my tilt/paranoia/tinfoil are bad for closing out games.

My adaptation recently has been to try and play to my strengths and call multiple scum D1 and push one of them through so I get killed N1 and aren't around to throw the game later.

As for why I think I'm constantly scum read by tone, I have a theory that people who are introverted (low happiness, low assertiveness), neurotic (in my case anxious, angry, vulnerable) and very disagreeable (competitive, suspicious of others) are likely to be scum read by tone when Town. I mostly believe this because I realized that other players who have a similar temperament are frequently getting pushed as scum by strangers in their games as well.

Now with that said, what about you, Grib? What is your playstyle like in the early, mid and late game, and do you often get scum read for your tone as Town?

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: Fire

[Frogsterking]

ii played a game with him, read another game with him. if i understood his mind i would share it better with you. If i gave you a generic profile i would say expect him to go back and forth very fast and be very invested into reads one moment and then move just as quickly to something else, and that his reasoning and logic are very hard to tract often.

I would say maybe best way to find him to be town because i haven't seen his scum game is probably his lack of care of how he is perceived and this early game interactions def gives me feeling he is caring how he looks. idk too early to tell. Early gut scum feels.

its weird i have early game scum reads on two players.
aisa and frog.
This is so unusual

I think this is probably Town with

low

certainty. There's a lack of contempt that I would expect to be here if this were intended as shade and I can see town!Fire thinking this is true. I can also see town!Fire viewing Aisa as scummy even though I think the opposite and am

low

certain his read is wrong and Aisa is Town.

[Frogsterking]

@Aisa

I do want you to answe my question though about your reads.

[Frogsterking]

Damn I got excited because I thought Elements was scum for a second.

[Frogsterking]

Above the Line
Firebringer
Frog
Grib
Bellaphant
The Line-------Eiralox, NM, Enchant, Firth, TSQ, BBT
HighPrincess
Aisa
Below the Line

I was going to scum case Elements but I think they're reads are tracking. It's interesting that they chose to put Bella above null. I was feeling that earlier but I couldn't really rationalize it.

Town leans:
Fire
Grib
Aisa
Elements

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: highprincess

This is probably a scum flip

low

certainty. I don't really see any other candidates in the active posters. I imagine the active posters are all Town and the other scum haven't posted anything AI yet.

Jeez, we're moving fast AND bringing along a foul mood or two.

IIoA

I changed my mind a bit. Frog is sus, but not quite scum yet.

Yikes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Frogsterking

I feel like this is +town for Grib, this is like the quintessential townie reaction to playing with me for the first time.

Definitely feeling it cause like. It's just a smidge bit weird to this one to post a giant personality survey and probe people who don't answer it. Like yeah, if it works it works but like.

Man! Kinda quirked... Not the biggest fan

.

Shade

[Frogsterking]

I don't think I can really do anything else. I thought about scum leaning Shea but I don't think I can rationalize that either.

All

low

certainty, no order

Town lean:
Aisa
Grib
Fire
Elements

Scum lean:
Princess

Null:
Everybody else

[Frogsterking]

And frankly u dodged my question on if you believed what u were posting or were just doing it too look townie or reaction test me. It seems the lack of answer and leaving it so fast indicates yes but i don't know with you so what is it.

Calm down

[Frogsterking]

there is a gut feeling i have that ur doing things right now to try to get townread that feels out of character frog.
are u really that interested in getting the game going or what

feels like ur doing and saying stuff to generate conversation rather than believing it in any of it

Yeah I feel like this is all accurate. I think you can probably read me pretty well.

[Frogsterking]

why is aisa town

Uhh I'll have to check

[Frogsterking]

I like Eira and Frog for early page 2 townreads.

god i got town. this game is going to be boring

seeing the playerlist this game probably wouldn't be amazingly fun in anyways.
[...]

I was going to say you're towny, too, but scratch that, I guess ;3

I used to scum read people for posting early reads like this but I was always wrong. I guess it's mostly intuition. My feeling this post reminded me of was sorting a town!Malakittens early.

[Frogsterking]

Hi everyone. I'm looking forward to playing with you all!

VOTE: Solway Firth
Sounds like a chemicals company tbh.

...and we cannot trust dem chemicals companies not to poison us all in our sleep.

It wasn't a part of why I town lean them but I used to scum read for posts like this too and it was always wrong.

[Frogsterking]

god i got town. this game is going to be boring

seeing the playerlist this game probably wouldn't be amazingly fun in anyways.
[...]

I was going to say you're towny, too, but scratch that, I guess ;3

This is probably the real point to towneead them though because they're trying to sort you here I think

[Frogsterking]

posts 5 and 6 are openning rvs that mean nothing.
I don't see point in arguing this right now though so will refrain from pushing this further.
I think ur wrong right now but until i get a good case going not worth arguing over

You think I'm wrong Town binning Aisa? Can you meta them?

[Frogsterking]

You're speaking from experience though? I have not played with them before, only in games they've modded I think.

[Frogsterking]

Dude I'm not trying to argue with you I just want to know if you're familiar with their Town range because I am not

[Frogsterking]

i have played one game with aisa. I am not making a case now i don't have one. I am not saying this is a meta read either. If you want to call it anything its gut. That is why i said lets have this discussion later because theres not much for me to discuss.

Okay

[Frogsterking]

Are you Town leaning anyone that I'm not?

[Frogsterking]

I do like Frog's response to me here but I really did not like the snap-Firebringer vote, which I'll explain a little bit later. I'm interested to see in what people have to say about it.

I doubt others will comment on it, you may as well spill what you have to say.

[Frogsterking]

I used to have a bad habit of tunneling villagers Day 1 for early scum pings, so now I try to hang back, lob questions, not get too fixated on anything, and silently build a rough PoE to refine Day 2 and onwards. I like having a lot of interactions with as many people as possible, because Day 1 is the most important phase to me.

I can definitely relate to this.

If I see someone else doing this then I tend to hang back and clear the arguing pairs as TvT. If no one is doing that and I feel like nothing is happening I will lay into people based on pings and ask others for feedback if our argument looks TvT, and if I get told yes then I Town them regardless of how I feel.

My rationale for this is that it's really Pro town to have like 1 knucklehead go around accusing people because it helps everyone else get their early reads, and if no one else is doing that then I feel like it's best for me to do it myself and try to mitigate my bias as much as possible.

My general impression is that you are a more risk-averse player than I am, FWIW.

[Frogsterking]

I meant, what peopel have to say about it when I lay out the reasons. But you're right, I don't think I'm going to get much out of waiting.

The problems I have with that vote are

1) it was waaay too early to accuse Firebringer of not wanting to have reads.
2) it was also too early to accuse scum of not wanting to fill out your survey - barely half the game had posted at that time.
3) you didn't explain why scum would or would not interact with your quiz.
4) I purposefully ignored your quiz to see what you would do about it, and you didn't react at all, which makes me think that 2 was complete bull.
5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

Well I--

...

*tabs out*

[Frogsterking]

you act like 6 pages is a lot. i remember the times waking up to 50 pages of posts

Yeah I mean fire is probably scum

[Frogsterking]

Shea scared I'm gonna catch him if he posts more than 3 times every 48 hours

[Frogsterking]

ii played a game with him, read another game with him. if i understood his mind i would share it better with you. If i gave you a generic profile i would say expect him to go back and forth very fast and be very invested into reads one moment and then move just as quickly to something else, and that his reasoning and logic are very hard to tract often.

I would say maybe best way to find him to be town because i haven't seen his scum game is probably his lack of care of how he is perceived and this early game interactions def gives me feeling he is caring how he looks. idk too early to tell. Early gut scum feels.

This is a lie BTW the game you played with me we were both scum

[Frogsterking]

ii played a game with him, read another game with him. if i understood his mind i would share it better with you. If i gave you a generic profile i would say expect him to go back and forth very fast and be very invested into reads one moment and then move just as quickly to something else, and that his reasoning and logic are very hard to tract often.

I would say maybe best way to find him to be town because i haven't seen his scum game is probably his lack of care of how he is perceived and this early game interactions def gives me feeling he is caring how he looks. idk too early to tell. Early gut scum feels.

This is a lie BTW the game you played with me we were both scum

I can't believe I missed that

[Frogsterking]

ii played a game with him, read another game with him. if i understood his mind i would share it better with you. If i gave you a generic profile i would say expect him to go back and forth very fast and be very invested into reads one moment and then move just as quickly to something else, and that his reasoning and logic are very hard to tract often.

I would say maybe best way to find him to be town because i haven't seen his scum game is probably his lack of care of how he is perceived and this early game interactions def gives me feeling he is caring how he looks. idk too early to tell. Early gut scum feels.

This is a bald-faced freaking lie. Fire knows exactly what my scum game looks like: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=88946

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Firebringer

[Frogsterking]

Which game was that. I don't think ive played scum in like half a year and def don't remember u being my teammate

what do you know we did play scum together.
its all coming back to me. your scum game really was bad if memory serves me right in that

CAUGHT SCUM

SCUM

CAUGHT SCUM CAUGHT SCUM

CAUGHT SCUM

[Frogsterking]

Aisa Lock Towned for getting shaded repeatedly by Firebringer

[Frogsterking]

I'm moving Princess back up to null:

Town lean:
Elements
Aisa
Grib

Null:
Princess

Scum:
Fire

Fire spewed Aisa as Town.

PEdit

That's AtE. You freaking lied to Grib about our meta so you could post your hedgey nothingwaffle read on me instead of telling him I'm way out of my scumrange. The fact you lied to Grib spews him as Town too.

[Frogsterking]

I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable and very public information. There's literally no point. What, was he banking on you not remembering?

I don't agree with
"I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable information" people do that all the time and I disagree that's a "safe" assumption especially. And in
mafia I've seen scum lie about more trivial things out of convenience when it had no long term strategic benefit and then not face any consequences when they were discovered because it gets buried under wifomy reasoning like "they wouldn't do that it's too easy to check."

And to answer your question, I don't think it was calculated, I think it was just inconvenient when you asked him about my play for him to have to tell you
"I played scum with him recently and he is garbage, he's probably Town here" and allow us to consolidate a Town core together. I think if anything, he banked on no one taking it seriously if he happened to get called out on it.

[Frogsterking]

I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable and very public information. There's literally no point. What, was he banking on you not remembering?

In my limited understanding of frogster he doesnt tend to care about what is likely to be true very much.

[citation needed]

[Frogsterking]

Scum lean on Shea what the fuck

[Frogsterking]

I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable and very public information. There's literally no point. What, was he banking on you not remembering?

I don't agree with
"I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable information" people do that all the time and I disagree that's a "safe" assumption especially. And in
mafia I've seen scum lie about more trivial things out of convenience when it had no long term strategic benefit and then not face any consequences when they were discovered because it gets buried under wifomy reasoning like "they wouldn't do that it's too easy to check."

And to answer your question, I don't think it was calculated, I think it was just inconvenient when you asked him about my play for him to have to tell you
"I played scum with him recently and he is garbage, he's probably Town here" and allow us to consolidate a Town core together. I think if anything, he banked on no one taking it seriously if he happened to get called out on it.

That's stupid. If he was going to lie, he could've just said he didn't remember. He didn't even have to bring up that he's played with you before, he did that voluntarily.

I agree it's stupid. Well, I don't it's stupid I think it's lazy. Here's scum lying about their meta which is easily verifiable just to dodge question they didn't like:

viewtopic.php?p=13434660#p13434660

Enchant is the only one who calls them out on it and that scum lived until like Day 4 in that game. That's the game that made me finally start taking it seriously when players do this.

[Frogsterking]

I don't see how that game anyway takes u out of ur scum game here because i would hope u improved since then.

viewtopic.php?p=13480102&user_select%5B ... #p13480102

My most recent scumgame.

[Frogsterking]

wait frogster, quick sanity check for me.
do u seriously believe this about me lying to grib about our past in order to....hide our history or something and this is scum motivated.

Cause honestly i thought this was another thing to just push more pointless conversation forward as you desperately seem like you want to just have people engage.

I'm not being ironic, I think it's stupid you expect me to believe you love playing scum so much, remembered this game (as your last scum game), remembered you've played ONE game with me, and somehow you tell Grib that you think I might be scum because you've never seen my scum game before.

PEdit:

YES GRIB my divergent meta is NOT something scum want to bring up because it helps Town sort me.

[Frogsterking]

+1 Elements take on Grib's case on me

@bbt

Good questions. I'll get back to you l8r bby

I've since done a quick Frog meta check and I agree they are more LAMISTy than their completed town game I checked, and I think that's concerning

See below

is Frog admitting he is trying to look town or is he saying he is trying to generate conversation? Frog?

Generate information. That game you looked at I replaced into a widely townread slot on D4 IIRC which is a terrible point of comparison. Not only did I replace into a widely townread slot, I replaced into Fire's widely townread slot, so I imagine Fire was referring to that same game earlier when he said he read a game of mine.

PEdit

Shea and Fire scared

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Erinys

I'm sheeping Bella's take that Fire forgetting that game is nai. I reflected and decided that Fire and I could be TvT here.

Game i staling, let's make decision already and end day.

We still have like 8 days to come to a decision, y'know.

As for HPE, I scumread her to reasons previously stated. I also don’t like how she voted BBT, and her tone is very off.

Just was not particularly keen on how BBT went about their vote. Also would prefer if you used this one's preferred pronouns, please.


As for other matters, this one is considering a vote on Frogster. Definitely echo the idea of appeasement, and just in general didn't really like his tone during the already weird accusation and subsequent vote based on Fire lying about meta. Going to wait on that for the time being. For now: A vague reads list because only like 3 people are actually posting frequently.

Townlean:
Aisa
Thestatusquo
Scumlean:
Frogsterking
Enchant

Other than Frog being genuinely kind of "hm." none of these very concrete. Everyone else is about neutral right now, and definitely subject to change once people actually start getting to talking.

I'm pretty sure this is a scum slot.

Low

certainty. The townlean on Shea with no explanation is bad and doesn't track for me; the scumlean on Enchant with no explanation is bad and doesn't track for me. This feels like scum setting up a fake read progression on me in conjunction with an earlier shade post they made on me.

[Frogsterking]

The whole point of my "case" on Frog was that those things bothered me, I asked Frog to clarify, and he actively chose not to. That certainly isn't townie, and kind of lends credence to my theory that Frog isn't town.

I +1 Elements

Sooo… I made a case for Frog being scum.

I think your case comes from a town mindset. I don't think your points necessarily point towards Frog scum though. I can see Frog!town wanting to sort Fire and so not paying as much attention to others doing the same, and I think Frog and Fire's early interactions point in this direction.

[Frogsterking]

So with that in mind (the main point in my mind being that Frog is Hard To Read but Catches Scum Pretty Early), I, a villager that knows next to nothing, notice some patterns in a couple of Frog's posts and I lay them out all nice and neat to see if Frog can explain why he did the things he did. He quotes the post but doesn't address anything. Several pages go by and still, nothing. What am I supposed to make of that?

Townie indignation fyi

@

Shea

Shea have you ever been BoPed before?

[Frogsterking]

So why didn't you say so when you acknowledged my post?

IDK, someone posted that in reply to me once and I thought it was funny.

I didn't have this purpose in mind, but I'm glad that I answered how I did because it gave Elements the chance to say what they did and because I think your indignation about it now is Townie FWIW

[Frogsterking]

Just was not particularly keen on how BBT went about their vote. Also would prefer if you used this one's preferred pronouns, please.

Shade also. Missed this part.

[Frogsterking]

Town leans

Bella
Elements
Aisa
Grib
Fire

Null

NM
Enchant

Scum leans

Erinys
Maybe Shea

__

I'll have to look at the rest later

[Frogsterking]

I'm not going to try to justify things in term of what town!Frog would do and what scum!Frog would do. That's meta; I've never played with Frog in my life and I have no intention of doing a meta dive. I asked for a brief summary of his playstyle, and some other people have chimed in, and that's what I'm working with.

Thank you for this by the way

PEdit

I didn't mean to put you down, the context someone replied like that to me I had made a good zinger or something @them and that was their response to me.

[Frogsterking]

Do people not look at the pronouns of others?

Wait before I go can you clarify why you townleaned Bella in your initial reads list?

[Frogsterking]

Frogsterking [he/him]

HE HIM

*crash* *stomp*

Enchant can you talk about your Aisa read? I've not seen this level of D1 aggression from you before.

[Frogsterking]

The frownie face in #311 was a typo.

Everything else was intentional.

[Frogsterking]

Frogsterking [he/him]

HE HIM

*crash* *stomp*

Enchant can you talk about your Aisa read? I've not seen this level of D1 aggression from you before.

EBWOP

That's better

[Frogsterking]

Enchant where's your read on Aisa coming from?

[Frogsterking]

Overall bad expression

Can't explain it

Ok. What about Erinys?

[Frogsterking]

Overall bad expression

Can't explain it

Ok. What about Erinys?

Who is this

This one:

Jeez, we're moving fast AND bringing along a foul mood or two.

I woudl like to hear more from aisa. Where did that rabbit run of to

Probably to the sidelines because LORD you two have been going at it mostly uninterrupted for a while now. It's given this one difficulty in trying to keep up because sifting through what is already five pages of posts. Might need to just dedicate the brainpower to it tomorrow (assuming there isn't another flood of posts...) in order to actually contribute. Going to UNVOTE: Grib for now as this one feels it's not worth keeping the RVS vote on them.

Not leaving it there however, as this one is going to VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee, as it's not particularly a fan of silently joining a bandwagon then disappearing entirely.

It's hard to get vibes on most people here in general because Fire and Frog arguments are kind of a mess and the vast majority of players are posting VERY infrequently. Feeling better about BBT now that they've actually started posting and questioning things. Gonna just UNVOTE: BlueBloodedToffee for the time being because this one is still unsure about actually putting a vote on Frog.

Caption here

[Frogsterking]

Ah, you mean anime avatar

Kinda "null".

[Frogsterking]

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment. Town is very interested in engaging with the actual meat of a post and discussing where the differences lie whereas scum tend to be more interested in discerning alignment.

I can confirm this is pop psychology and a variation for https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 27s_Gambit the slayer's gambit.

I wouldn't be surprised if Town is more likely to try to win an argument which makes no sense because presumably they would actually believe in what they're saying and be more emotionally reactive to being told they're wrong.

If anything it's going to be dependent on temperament x alignment hence my survey start.

The more disagreeable someone is the more they will try to win a pointless argument and the less conscientious someone is the less effort they will put into addressing every aspect of a person's argument *in general.* BBT has never filled out my survey and based on my experience with them I can easily see them being low conscientiousness and high disagreeable. In fact I think both Shea and BBT are probably low conscientiousness and high disagreeable.

BBT is lim bait from my experience and if Shea flips Town they can eat crow for putting themselves on a pedestal for rational townplay. If you two complete my survey I might be able to shed some additional light here.

Pedit

My first thoughts reading Shea's posts were "no that's wrong" and "looks like TvT"

[Frogsterking]

In fact I think both Shea and BBT are probably low conscientiousness and high disagreeable.

I am low conscientiousness and high(ly) disagreeable

Pedit:

You're wrong Shea the five factor model used by the NEO-IPIP has significant predictive power and you should have taken more classes than Intro to Psychology, you would have learned something

[Frogsterking]

Not the way you're using it it doesn't.

There is a forum user with a PhD who writes surveys and does research on the five factor model and they collaborated with me to select the questions for this survey I'm using based on their research from on apying the NEO-IPIP.

As for whether or not I'm able to accurately apply it to determine what is AI and NAI, I probably make a lot of mistakes, game is hard, it's bad faith on your part though to suggest I'm completely incompetent.

[Frogsterking]

I would be more open to listening to your idea about the Weak Argument Method even though it's clearly not supported by any research if you weren't so quick to put me down at every opportunity.

[Frogsterking]

Herpa derp *towns about*

[Frogsterking]

Sooo… I made a case for Frog being scum. As of right now none of the concerns I have have been addressed. The only “defense” I’ve seen is that Frog doesn’t play logically, which isn’t helpful at all.

That being said, he claims that he’s good at sussing scum out on Day 1, so I’m happy to let him scumhunt and reevaluate my own read based on how he does his thing.

Other than that, I really don’t have much to say. Last night more than half the player list had less posts than the mod. I think Fire is town and Frog is scum. Everyone else is a big fat question mark.

Let me put it this way. Frog doesn’t play illogically, he rather works behind-the scenes and isn’t always forthcoming with his thoughts. He also says things he may not fully believe and manipulates others to advance the town agenda. This often leads to him being scumread for tone and being manipulative. Frogster struggles to replicate this as scum. I do not have any personal experience with Frogster but I have skimmed through several of Frogster’s games and in those games seen people describe his meta.

Thanks for the shittiest Townsend of all time. Can you post a reads list with explanations please?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Shea

Breadcrumb something something

[Frogsterking]

Evidence that makes me think they're town that I haven't commented on yet: the promising to elaborate on a read and then needing at least a couple of real-life days to do is something I've seen them do before as town.

I still feel their play is more consistent with them being town than them being scum.

Smooth.

[Frogsterking]

@Bella

@Gribs

@Fire

@Elements

@Enchant

Can you confirm there's an up to date list on who all you Town read in your ISO, and if there isn't can you post one?

[Frogsterking]

Time to try to engage frogsterking on his level.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.5.29

I know this is a thing you care about, how would you say BBT scores on this here.

Lol I'm not scum with BBT, officer. I swear, honestly

I would be more open to listening to your idea about the Weak Argument Method even though it's clearly not supported by any research if you weren't so quick to put me down at every opportunity.

I think disagreeing with your methods does not equal putting you down. But I also don't think this is a productive use of either of our time, this argument. I do not buy your methods and I don't think there's anything you can say or do that will make me given my experience reading a bunch of your games.

The only thing that's annoying here is you trying to hold me hostage by saying you wont even consider my arguments unless I agree with your scum hunting methods. Which I'm just straight up not going to do because I've seen no evidence they catch scum anywhere.

This is projection because:

1) There is no evidence anywhere that your methods catch scum.

2) I think disagreeing with your methods doesn't equal trying to hold you hostage.

3)

4)

[Frogsterking]

Why do you want a list of town reads? So you know who to night kill?

Exactly.

[Frogsterking]

I will nightkill Elements.

I'm interpreting this to mean Elements is your only Townread.

[Frogsterking]

This Towncore is explosive

[Frogsterking]

Why do you want a list of town reads? So you know who to night kill?

Why do you want a list of town reads? So you know who to night kill?

Exactly.

I'm trying to see whether we have any collective insight into the slots which are harder to read. I call it "Town reading by proxy."

[Frogsterking]

I'm trying to see whether we have any collective insight into the slots which are harder to read. I call it "Town reading by proxy."

Why not ask us about those slots specifically then?

I consider everyone I didn't name more difficult to read

[Frogsterking]

Oh you just did.

I'm not saying you're scum with BBT I'm trying to get you to vote bbt.

I assumed you were trying to "gotcha" me. I don't know if you've played with BBT before but BBT made a bunch of those tells the last two games I played with him and he was Town. The only thing I've noticed different this game is that the questions he asked me seemed more pointed and less superficial than in the mini Normal we played together.

[Frogsterking]

Ive been going back and forth lately on this

Did it hurt?

[Frogsterking]

Sooo… I made a case for Frog being scum. As of right now none of the concerns I have have been addressed. The only “defense” I’ve seen is that Frog doesn’t play logically, which isn’t helpful at all.

That being said, he claims that he’s good at sussing scum out on Day 1, so I’m happy to let him scumhunt and reevaluate my own read based on how he does his thing.

Other than that, I really don’t have much to say. Last night more than half the player list had less posts than the mod. I think Fire is town and Frog is scum. Everyone else is a big fat question mark.

Let me put it this way. Frog doesn’t play illogically, he rather works behind-the scenes and isn’t always forthcoming with his thoughts. He also says things he may not fully believe and manipulates others to advance the town agenda. This often leads to him being scumread for tone and being manipulative. Frogster struggles to replicate this as scum. I do not have any personal experience with Frogster but I have skimmed through several of Frogster’s games and in those games seen people describe his meta.

Thanks for the shittiest Townsend of all time. Can you post a reads list with explanations please?

I can in around 7 hours.

Sounds good.

[Frogsterking]

why the hell is there even a wagon on elements.

Because they're quiet and don't cooperate:

Why do you want a list of town reads? So you know who to night kill?

I'm trying to see whether we have any collective insight into the slots which are harder to read. I call it "Town reading by proxy."

Why not ask us about those slots specifically then?

Easy limbait target.

[Frogsterking]

If anything I would say that’s scum indicative for HPE. You’re saying that HPE is repeating thoughts by others but framing them in a helpful way. I think that rather points to HPE being scum and uncomfortable with making its own points.

Solway pointing out the thing ive been thinking for awhile. Would give town points for that but i don't give them out like hotcakes.

I don't get the HPE townreads.

I should get some more townreads. Who do i even have at this point just BBT and Grib?

Try mine:

@Bella

@Gribs

@Fire

@Elements

@Enchant

Can you confirm there's an up to date list on who all you Town read in your ISO, and if there isn't can you post one?

I now have Fire and Enchant's list.

Fire's Townreads:
BBT
Grib
Solway
Elements

Enchant's Townreads:



I'm still looking to see a list from Bella, Elements and Gribs.

[Frogsterking]

Why do you think Enchant is Town, Frogster?

I'm shamelessly and fearlessly abusing meta

[Frogsterking]

My most recent read list is as up to date as I care to be at the moment

Dope

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

What posts would you describe as "long catchup posts"

And what about catching up is more likely to come from scum than town?

It makes the posts easier to write, it makes it easier to avoid faking interactions and it makes it easier to monitor the thread carefully and double check everything your saying. I get the sense that Solway is monitoring the thread very carefully and is being cautious in what he says and I think that combined with lurky + unusual activity in the thread in response to what's happening is more likely to come from scum.

[Frogsterking]

Definitely don't like how BBT went about that argument (esp. the OMGUS) but this one does also see it as potentially being not very AI. Pretty half and half on if it's scummy or not overall. As for Aisa, this one will probably need to ISO her posts and try and draw a conclusion itself.

What did you dislike? Why do you think it's not AI?

Mostly think that TSQ has something of a point. Not a decisive one, but something of one, and again the OMGUS wasn't a great look. But beyond the actual points of contention on how scummy or not scummy pointing out defensiveness is, Aisa and Grib pointed out the argument was mostly moreso a disagreement of personality than alignment, atleast in their eyes, and this one gets that kind of feel too. Your actual defense, to this one, feels like it could be either a town or scum defense, so it doesn't think this adds up to

too

much in it's book, for now.

As for Aisa, this one finally got around to reading her posts, and... Ehhhh? Nothing particularly jumps out at it as weird or scummy. Maybe it needs to read it over three more times with a magnifying glass but like, for now it's just gonna tune the Aisa wagon out of it's options unless something big comes up.

Not a fan of staying unvoted for so long so going to cap this post off with a VOTE: FrogsterKing in absence of a better vote.

This post is quite bad. HPE says that TSQ may have a point, but then it claims that TSQ’s OMGUS is a bad look for him. It then uses these two arguments to avoid coming to a proper conclusion on the TSQ/BBT spat. HPE’s point about TSQ’s OMGUS being bad is a point that stands on very weak footing, as before TSQ voted BBT, TSQ expressed a strong scumread on BBT at which point BBT reacted to the scumread by voting TSQ. So in that case isn’t BBT the one ‘OMGUS-ing’ and voting TSQ? This seems like the reasonable conclusion HPE should have gotten if it was reading the BBT/TSQ spat from the eye of someone determined to figure out BBT and TSQ’s alignment. Instead, it looks like it was trying to shade both BBT and TSQ for different reasons to keep its hands clean.

The next part of this post is just HPE writing off the Aisa wagon because “nothing particularly jumps out.” I don’t even have to say why that’s scummy. There’s zero analysis done. I guess we’ll all just have to take HPE’s word for it that it tried to analyze Aisa’s ISO but nothing at all stood out? Either HPE is being lazy town, or HPE is scum who wants to be safe and fence-sit on the Aisa wagon. I’m leaning to towards the latter.

VOTE: HPE

Podts like this one.

[Frogsterking]

Prodding not_mafia and Frogsterking

I stand by my take that Solway is scum. I'll update all my reads after I get some sleep.

[Frogsterking]

Maybe everyone would be happier if I started playing more like Elements.

No.

[Frogsterking]

Both wagons reek.

Nah, Solway is more likely scum than Aisa IMO.

[Frogsterking]

Frog scum probably has all his Allie’s easily identifiable in his iso once we analyze it

[Frogsterking]

Aisa is town because Eira is scum if anyone is interested

VOTE: Solway

@Shea

Can be bus vote

[Frogsterking]

I had some things to say that are better left unsaid.

@Frog could you ISO me and answer my question about what meta you had on Enchant that made you townread him at the time we had that discussion?

Yeah

[Frogsterking]

Then why say that you had things to say at all?

I'm going to bring it up again later.

[Frogsterking]

what does snowing mean?

Enchanting

[Frogsterking]

Who called me

Me

[Frogsterking]

What is your favorite enchantment

Mastermind

[Frogsterking]

I'd also be interested in Solway's readslist. It doesn't have to be long or thought-out, it doesn't even have to include everyone, it can literally just be a list of gutreads.

Why do you think Enchant is Town, Frogster?

I'm shamelessly and fearlessly abusing meta

What is this meta?

Here's one:

I will nightkill Elements.

I'm interpreting this to mean Elements is your only Townread.

No, i am my only townread but i won't kill myself because killing self is wrong guys don't do it

I feel like this is kind of edgy for scum!Enchant. I think if scum Enchant wrote #513 it would just say "No, i am my only townread"

[Frogsterking]

Cool

Mine is Sharpness V

How are you feeling about NM?

[Frogsterking]

NM is awesome and complete unreadable.

In this game though what do you think when you look at his ISO?

[Frogsterking]

I think NM deserved pass

Okay. Who all doyou think deserves a pass?

[Frogsterking]

I also deserve pass

Gotcha. Thank you.

[Frogsterking]

np now die

VOTE: Frog

VOTE: Enchant

[Frogsterking]

haha i baited you on omgus outed scum hahaha

MasterminDEAD

[Frogsterking]

Thanks for the reply Frog.

I'm not really loving Frog and I think this is kind of an underrated wagon atm, so VOTE: frogsterking.

Does anyone wanna talk to me about Enchant?

@bella

, what's your approach towards the game rn? I understand this is a pretty generic question, interpret it as you will

VOTE: Aisa

#1072 looks like a post I would write as scum.

[Frogsterking]

I'm here

It's Aisa probably, best guess.

[Frogsterking]

Can someone talk to me about Fire? I think I've seen some townreads thrown around, but I'm not sure I've seen them explained and I feel like that would be helpful. Alternatively, what do people think of my case?

VOTE: Aisa

Talk about this?

5 and 228 both ping me. The meta on Frog is eh at best and comes to a conclusion I disagree with. I wanted to have my vote on someone.

What part of my meta on Frog did you disagree with?

We seem a bit thinly spread and there are 4 days left. May I suggest we start thinking of a Compromise Wagon? Frogster is my favourite of the existing ones. I'm not really in the mood to do analysis atm, but I promise words tomorrow.

Aisa is fine and I've found them fairly easy to read as both alignments.

This is intriguing. Where did you see me as scum and what gave me away?

Also, just for fun...

Spoiler: Will you analyse me, Frog?

"Get angry easily" = 1

"Take charge" = 3?

"Make people feel welcome" = 4?

"Like music" = 4

"Like to tidy up" = 2

"Like to visit new places" = 3

"Feel comfortable around people" = 3

"Interested in many things" = 4

"Love order and regularity" = 4

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 2

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 2

"Cheer people up" = 2

"Lose my temper" = 1

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 4

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 4? They're all generic qs but this is the most generic of them all

"Cheat to get ahead" = 1??

"Feel desperate" = 2

"Rarely overindulge" = 2

"Easily resist temptations" = 2

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 3

"Waste my time" = 4

"Need a push to get started" = 4

"Have little to contribute" = 1

"Keep my cool" = 5

"Avoid crowds" = 3

"Turn my back on others" = 3?

Posts like #209 are super pockety

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: BBT

I feel like BBT is just voting me to save his own butt and it's kind of obvious?

He didn't just question the wagon - he stated he had a town read on you and then proceeded to question it. My whole problem is a) where did this read come from, b) why was it so strong and now c) why is it so damn difficult for him to explain?

You may not need a strong read to question a wagon - but Eira himself said that his read was strong so I would like some justification for such a strong early game read given his actions of wanting to push back on the wagon.

If wagons are so fickle, why did he feel the need to defend you? You have made what I feel is a stretch of an assumption in that you think Eira was talking about later information gathered. Why would I care about that? I am specifically asking about an early game read - I don't care what got posted 15 pages after the fact.

The posts quoted are not just showing Eira not explaining the read, but the fact he keeps saying that he will explain the read and doesn't do it. Constant dodging. He also says he understands the suspicion (appeasement?) so I'm a little confused as to how you're not seeing it.

My case is this;

Eira town reads you based on gut (and says the read is strong)
I ask him to explain this read
He refuses to explain it but says he will get to it eventually before continually dodging
When he does finally get around to it he tries to use later posts that didn't exist to justify an early read and that's not how it works
Then he finally gives up because he can't explain it and refuses to engage

He said he would explain the early town read on you.
He hasn't.
He has now refused to explain it.

How is that not a change in his position?

Elements, wanna vote Frog?

I also have outstanding questions addressed to you

VOTE: frog

Can you expand a little on your Eira and Grib reads?

I don't think I have liked any of Frog's posting this game, especially D1. There is plenty in my ISO.

Aisa is town because Eira is scum.

VOTE: Frog

The quotes above just look like desperate scum flailing (1113 and 1114 especially) and then looking for an easy target to pull down with him. BBT tries harder than I've ever seen them try as Town with their Eira case and then apparently gives up instantly and starts shopping for a Frog wagon instead (1118.) Out of all the player's voting me, BBT looks the least like they actually believe I'm scum. It also looks like it was receiving support from Bella (1122) which caused BBT to vote me so that's making me lean Town on Bella off a BBT scum flip.

[Frogsterking]

Also, there is like nothing about me inBBT's iso but he says something like "you can read it all in my iso" (1123.) I just checked his iso to verify and there's nothing about his frog case there and his pivot onto me in 1118 looks as opportunistic on a reread as it did at first glance.

[Frogsterking]

Bella and BBT have a lot of partner equity. BBT and Frog also have a lot of partner equity. I was gonna say it could also be Elements + someone, but on closer inspection / consideration she doesn't have very partnery vibes with anyone in my PoE, a good sign.

This also looks bad. How do BBT and Bella have any partner equity? Also, if you think BBT is scum with everyone why are you refusing to vote them?

[Frogsterking]

Bella and BBT have a lot of partner equity. BBT and Frog also have a lot of partner equity. I was gonna say it could also be Elements + someone, but on closer inspection / consideration she doesn't have very partnery vibes with anyone in my PoE, a good sign.

This also looks bad. How do BBT and Bella have any partner equity? Also, if you think BBT is scum with everyone why are you refusing to vote them?

Also I don't fully understand the point of that last line in 1140 at all. It looks like you wanted attention from Elements so made some shit up about them?

[Frogsterking]

[...]
Aisa, can you talk about those partner equities?

Sure.

Assume you and Frog are scum: you're both in an iffy spot today, it's fairly likely the elim will be between the two of you. In a situation like this I think it's quite natural for scum to bus, your jump onto Frog is perfectly timed to be just that. You were both on the Solway wagon.

You and Bella: if Bella is scum I think she is softly" trying to mess with that townblock I was talking about by saying she feels iffy about me, Grib, Eira, etc. and you're "enabling" her big time. Also, you are kind of a meme and it would be neat if you two were the same alignment.

Also, why doesn't Scum!Elements back track a scum read on Scum!Frog when a wagon picks up

Wait, you're right, that actually doesn't make any sense, I messed up the chain of logic somewhere

Oh. I mean, my question still stand stands though.

[Frogsterking]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but if that case on me is the best Tadpole can muster, then I don't feel especially inclined to change my mind. It seems like a really easy shot for scum to take. Frog, do you think you could talk me through a bit? How is making "pockety" posts scum-indicative? How else does my overarching play reflect a scum agenda? Who are my partners?
[...]

Bonus question @Frog: do you have any

medium

or

high

certainty reads?

Yeah I think BBT is scum with like

moderate

certainty now and I think you're scum with

low

certainty.

[Frogsterking]

Also, the whole point of post 1140 is to float some random ideas I had and maybe have a discussion, I won't be able to defend all of the ideas in that post to a high standard.

Okay that explains a lot.

[Frogsterking]

I mean that Frog tested my wagon.

Nou

[Frogsterking]

You were in the LOST game, you definitely saw me casing numerous people

No, I didn't see you do much of that in LOST.

[Frogsterking]

BBT and Aisa aren't both scum

I think so yeah, I think I misjudged Aisa.

[Frogsterking]

ohh yeah and shea push on BBT is a nothing burger. I read it. Not impressed could go over point by point if anyone interested but mostly it amounts to pushing BBT for saying things that serve no purpose for alignment hunting (dismissing and poisoning well)

I would read it

[Frogsterking]

Aisa should really get a notes PT and learn to use it, it will improve their tone a lot IMO.

[Frogsterking]

I just flipped my sleep schedule from sleeping during the day to sleeping at night.

[Frogsterking]

I suggest we not lose sight of the BBT wagon. That was our (my) mistake D1. We should have the numbers to push it through if the Bella and BBT wagons consolidate. I'm pretty sure my wagon is just intended as a distraction to keep BBT alive.

[Frogsterking]

the more frog posts. the more it looks like he is throwing random shit at the wall to see what sticks.
i could see it as possible townie day 1. Stir shit up, get reactions for reads. Now it just looks like he has no committed reads and wants to see what he can get away with pushing.

BBT has at least made an effort to stay engaged, while Frog has not.

@all

If you want to sort me talk to me, not about me.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Elements

Bus vote on BBT, too much certainty:

VOTE: BBT
This is scum and I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise

People who are actually trying to read me, like eir and honestly bbt, are reading me right.

Have you considered that's because they know your alignment?

I am town reading bbt.

Please do tell why

Pointing the tsq nk at him is like level 0 of a read.

No one is scum reading BBT just because of the night kill and saying that is deliberately disingenuous.
The read is 3 fold. Terrible reaction to TSQ's test (and you cannot argue it wasn't bad because it was), the night kills, and wagonomics.
At least half of the wagon on bbt was town at all points. With N_M and enchant in the game it was effectively 6 to lim. Me, Grib, Aisa, and Eiralox were all on the E-1 wagon with 2 confirmed town. The scum team is not Grib, Eiralox, Aisa. I think there was a max of 1 scum on that wagon. At the end of the day there were at least 4 town willing to vote BBT. Scum push that. That's easy momentum to push a mis-lim.

I also think there were at least 2 scum on the SF wagon at the end.

I can elaborate on this if necessary. I was trained to look for too little or too much data behind the vote when hunting for a busser.

__

@frog, what is your position on Aisa after the recent deaths?

If Bella is a partner, then BBT charged himself with protecting her. With the way he played, I don't think she's his partner. And the Firebringer kill would be hella weird after Bella openly shaded him at deadline for townreading you.

Do you think the Firebringer kill indicates me as scum more than Bella as scum?

I read these Qs as red flags more likely to come from scum who is thinking about the endgame rather than Town who is hunting at this stage of the game.

__

Grib - Prob-Town
Frogsterking - Null/Town
Bellaphant - Town Lean
Firebringer - Town
Eiralox - Null
Not_Mafia - Null
HighPrincessErinys - Null
Enchant - Prob-Town
Solway Firth - Null/Sum
Aisa - Scum Lean
Thestatusquo - Town
BlueBloodedToffee - Haven't Read

HPE can have a bit of a town bump

BBT can be a town lean

I'm hoping the partner is implicated here. Will look closer when I wake up.

[Frogsterking]

Ok, I’ll say it. Frog is strategically lurking. I’ve never played with him before but his personality type doesn’t really mesh with “give up” as a villager.

You can't think of any of other reason I might have played this way other than rolling scum?

[Frogsterking]

I'm ready

Ready as well.

Yall should vote Elements

[Frogsterking]

Why i have bad feeling

Is it because you know Frog is going to flip town?

^^

[Frogsterking]

I'm awake by the way

[Frogsterking]

This is the first time I’ve seen someone towntell so massively and obviously on Day 3, at least imo. I guess miracles can happen!

?

I’m talking about Elements. I think their recent posting makes them Town.

...how??

[Frogsterking]

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Are you opposed to kicking nm out the game before the second mafia and if so why?

Is it to early to ask frog to claim?

This is role phishing

[Frogsterking]

Firebringer died last night. He was a

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

@everyone townreading Elements for D3

I'm assuming that the Fire kill was a failed TPR hunt. If anyone wants to challenge me on that claim then come at me. With that in mind, what do you think Elements is trying to accomplish on page 61 with this series of questions:

@Frog, where are your reads at with Aisa and Bella after the last couple of flips?

I had some things to say that are better left unsaid.

Is it time for you to say them yet?

any reason for NM over Frog?

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Are you opposed to kicking nm out the game before the second mafia and if so why?

Is it to early to ask frog to claim?

I'm not saying that any of you are stupid for not noticing this because IIRC I was one of the first to trust Elements on D1. I didn't find much reason to suspect Elements on D1 but I'm

high

certainty that Elements is scum based on their D2 and D3 play. On D2 Elements is the best candidate to be a/the busser on BBT and on D3 Elements is trying to narrow down an investigative TPR. For example, in 1518 Elements is trying to figure out whether Grib specifically has an

inno

on NM. That is like...the only point to that question and I don't think that it can be Town motivated.

I can also say that I'm pretty sure (maybe

moderate

certainty) there is a scum roleblocker and I'm

low

certainty that Elements is the scum roleblocker.

[Frogsterking]

@frog, what is your position on Aisa after the recent deaths?

This isn't the post I was looking for, but this is probing to see if I have an inno on Aisa.

[Frogsterking]

TSQ what do you think about a BBT, Aisa, SF scum team?

Also not what I was looking for, but I expect with Titus' rule of 3 principle (scum like to include one buddy in a list of 3 FoS) this post helps indicate town!Aisa.

[Frogsterking]

Scumreading me doesn't need explaination. I am lurk
Townreading me doesn't need explaination. I am charismatic

Putting me in top townread and top scumread does. Funnily, mostly scum doing that.


Anyway vote Aisa pls, if she is mafia, i claim credit for that, if she is not, i blame you all for being fools and following me.

It's literally win-win.

Congrats enchant, you're my biggest town read

[Frogsterking]

Anyway, he knows there’s no world where we kill anyone -he- wants us to kill this phase. So he’s eliminating any further incriminating interactions.

In my opinion.

Sit down, Grib

[Frogsterking]

Disclaimer: I'm going to treat myself as town for this analysis because that takes out a variable and makes this easier for me.

Okay here is what I was looking for earlier. The problem with the VCA Elements has presented is that it doesn't include the impact of their own vote on the wagon movements. I think this disclaimer is an example of lampshading which is NAI (I think?) What's scummy in Elements ISO is the use of VCA to explain their reads because it helps to project the image of being reasonable while not requiring any descriptions for how they feel about given players.

[Frogsterking]

Spoiler: Frog meta

Okay, now you feel almost too scummy to be scum.

Will you tell me about your playstyle? How you tend to handle the early- mid-, and late-game? Why do people who don't know you typically scumread you, and if someone had experience with you, what would they think of your posts so far?

Sorry for the rapid-fire questions, but you intrigue me.

Aside from the questions these are all the usual beats of a townie trying really hard to sort my slot. I've been described as too-scummy-to-be-scum sounding a lot. Like, a lot.

For your questions, I have very good reads early and hit scum D1 a lot. I mostly ask questions, set up a PoE and analyze isos. So my early play is very competent. Actually, I think my early game is very good.

The problem is that other than that I tend to play pretty bad.

I'd describe my mid game (or even immediately after setting up a PoE) play as: I freak out and go on tilt and throw the game.

I think my endgame play is messy too because I can figure out who did it by then but my tilt/paranoia/tinfoil are bad for closing out games.

My adaptation recently has been to try and play to my strengths and call multiple scum D1 and push one of them through so I get killed N1 and aren't around to throw the game later.

As for why I think I'm constantly scum read by tone, I have a theory that people who are introverted (low happiness, low assertiveness), neurotic (in my case anxious, angry, vulnerable) and very disagreeable (competitive, suspicious of others) are likely to be scum read by tone when Town. I mostly believe this because I realized that other players who have a similar temperament are frequently getting pushed as scum by strangers in their games as well.

Now with that said, what about you, Grib? What is your playstyle like in the early, mid and late game, and do you often get scum read for your tone as Town?

There is a very obvious lack of tilt here, or passion, or urgency. If Frog is town here.

Your recent posts are moving me toward that place VERY quickly

[Frogsterking]

In any case, I do agree that if you’re town, Elements is very likely scum.

It sounds like you aren't even thinkinv about the game at all because until I said anything you were all dramatic about your intent to vote out NM after you mislim Frog.

Ok, I’ll say it. Frog is strategically lurking. I’ve never played with him before but his personality type doesn’t really mesh with “give up” as a villager.

Spoiler: Frog meta

Okay, now you feel almost too scummy to be scum.

Will you tell me about your playstyle? How you tend to handle the early- mid-, and late-game? Why do people who don't know you typically scumread you, and if someone had experience with you, what would they think of your posts so far?

Sorry for the rapid-fire questions, but you intrigue me.

Aside from the questions these are all the usual beats of a townie trying really hard to sort my slot. I've been described as too-scummy-to-be-scum sounding a lot. Like, a lot.

For your questions, I have very good reads early and hit scum D1 a lot. I mostly ask questions, set up a PoE and analyze isos. So my early play is very competent. Actually, I think my early game is very good.

The problem is that other than that I tend to play pretty bad.

I'd describe my mid game (or even immediately after setting up a PoE) play as: I freak out and go on tilt and throw the game.

I think my endgame play is messy too because I can figure out who did it by then but my tilt/paranoia/tinfoil are bad for closing out games.

My adaptation recently has been to try and play to my strengths and call multiple scum D1 and push one of them through so I get killed N1 and aren't around to throw the game later.

As for why I think I'm constantly scum read by tone, I have a theory that people who are introverted (low happiness, low assertiveness), neurotic (in my case anxious, angry, vulnerable) and very disagreeable (competitive, suspicious of others) are likely to be scum read by tone when Town. I mostly believe this because I realized that other players who have a similar temperament are frequently getting pushed as scum by strangers in their games as well.

Now with that said, what about you, Grib? What is your playstyle like in the early, mid and late game, and do you often get scum read for your tone as Town?

There is a very obvious lack of tilt here, or passion, or urgency. If Frog is town here.

My problem with thjs is that you assumed I gave up and that there weren't any NAI reasons for my decreased energy levels.

[Frogsterking]

You have given 0 reads these last 2 days except whoever is easiest to attack at the time, and Aisa.

This is really rich coming from the player who pushed me while I was inactive and has angled constantly to appear "logical" about voting NM:

I dislike that NM didn't vote BBT at all

Maybe Grib NM

I probably owe it to Firebringer to leave you alone for now anyways.

Problem is, aside from Frog I don't have a better candidate for the last mafia. NM? I really want to believe I'm correctly townrading Bella/Eira/Aisa.

NM slots in with BBT as a partner I think

Not_Mafia
Has vote for: Me (biggest wagon), Aisa (making it the biggest wagon), Bella (weren't really any wagons at the time), Frog (biggest wagon)
The only biggest wagon NM didn't voted for was BBT. Both day 1 and day 2.
Conclusion: NM fits with BBT as scum

Caption hereeeee
__

Frog's entire 'case' on me is that I'm TPR hunting because I've been asking people about their reads. That is literally all you do in mafia. Ask people about their reads. That's ALL there is to do. Frog is trying to push me on the basis of me playing the game.

This is straw manning my argument because

1) that's not my entire point on Elements (Elements BBT bus vote)
2) the questions Elements asked are clearly useful for narrowing down who may have

living

inno reports (1518) and I don't see any solving purpose behind. Also like 1520? I'm pretty sure I'm like lucid and I think Elements is phishing?

If Bella is a partner, then BBT charged himself with protecting her. With the way he played, I don't think she's his partner. And the Firebringer kill would be hella weird after Bella openly shaded him at deadline for townreading you.

Do you think the Firebringer kill indicates me as scum more than Bella as scum?

Yes.

But I’m by no means locked onto that. Just need a healthy amount of discussion and different perspectives.

So I hard bus my partner and then kill of the only person that's town reading me?

^^ yes because the Fire kill was a TPR hunt. This is a misdirection because at the time the kill was made there was no reason for Elements to believe they would be pushed hard today or that they would need a pocket alive to defend them.

[Frogsterking]

Disclaimer: I'm going to treat myself as town for this analysis because that takes out a variable and makes this easier for me.

Okay here is what I was looking for earlier. The problem with the VCA Elements has presented is that it doesn't include the impact of their own vote on the wagon movements. I think this disclaimer is an example of lampshading which is NAI (I think?) What's scummy in Elements ISO is the use of VCA to explain their reads because it helps to project the image of being reasonable while not requiring any descriptions for how they feel about given players.

A point which is completely undermined by the fact I actually give reads in separate posts unlike you

...says the active posting scum player to the lurking town slot who accuses them

[Frogsterking]

Disclaimer: I'm going to treat myself as town for this analysis because that takes out a variable and makes this easier for me.

Okay here is what I was looking for earlier. The problem with the VCA Elements has presented is that it doesn't include the impact of their own vote on the wagon movements. I think this disclaimer is an example of lampshading which is NAI (I think?) What's scummy in Elements ISO is the use of VCA to explain their reads because it helps to project the image of being reasonable while not requiring any descriptions for how they feel about given players.

A point which is completely undermined by the fact I actually give reads in separate posts unlike you

...says the active posting scum player to the lurking town slot who accuses them

Pings me back to this scum poster from one of my first games:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=84085&start=325

FMPOV Elements is acting like a deep scum who got caught off guard thanks to yours truly.

[Frogsterking]

@Frogster: IF you feel so troong about elements! scum, who do like for third?

I have very little idea and I'm hoping the final slot can be resolved by night actions.

[Frogsterking]

Everything you're saying is such garbage

It's...really not though

Why are you not commenting of Grin's push on you?

I can't tell if this is a bait or if you aren't focused on solving as much as you've been presenting yourself to be (1550, 1552, 1556.)

[Frogsterking]

Everything you're saying is such garbage

Jeez, get off your high horse and stop massaging your own ego

CAUGHT SCUM CAUGHT SCUM
SCUM CAUGHT SCUM
CAUGHT
CAUGHT SCUM

[Frogsterking]

Frog, what makes you think the Fire kill was specifically a TPR hunt? Besides the fact that scum are by default always going to kill rolereads, unless a specific villager’s death benefits them.

Mainly intuition but I can offer a rationale:

I don't know about his read on Bella but his read on me was wrong, his read on BBT was wrong (IIRC) and I suspect his reads on Aisa+Elements were wrong, so I don't think he was killed for his reads. Also, even if his read on Bella was correct, that dynamic between the two of them can be used to create useless drama (as could the dynamic between him and Aisa) so there is a lot of utility to scum for keeping Fire around if they don't read him as TPR.

[Frogsterking]

I'm Doctor, UNVOTE. I'll quote my crumbs.

[Frogsterking]

I promise to protect the secrets of your mind and keep our dreams of finding scum alive.

[Frogsterking]

It had to be done: they were carrying a lethal flesh eating virus and it was highly contagious. I saved us all.

[Frogsterking]

Frogsterking [he/him]

HE HIM

*crash* *stomp*

Enchant can you talk about your Aisa read? I've not seen this level of D1 aggression from you before.

EBWOP

That's better

(added Doc smiley)

[Frogsterking]

I had some things to say that are better left unsaid.

I saved Shea N1

[Frogsterking]

Scumreading me doesn't need explaination. I am lurk
Townreading me doesn't need explaination. I am charismatic

Putting me in top townread and top scumread does. Funnily, mostly scum doing that.


Anyway vote Aisa pls, if she is mafia, i claim credit for that, if she is not, i blame you all for being fools and following me.

It's literally win-win.

Congrats enchant, you're my biggest town read

(Doc smiley)

[Frogsterking]

I don't want to touch frog yet either. Not because i town read him, because i don't, but because i feel like town is better off waiting.

Shea saw my crumbs D1 IMO. I thought Shea was crumbing Psychologist D1 which is why I saved him N1. I'm not outting my N2 target because they are TPR I think.

[Frogsterking]

Vote Elements today. FOS Enchant if they don't unvote. I can try to help with the PoE today before I die.

[Frogsterking]

You guys really blow by the way.

[Frogsterking]

You guys really blow by the way.

I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said this.

[Frogsterking]

I don't want to touch frog yet either. Not because i town read him, because i don't, but because i feel like town is better off waiting.

Shea saw my crumbs D1 IMO. I thought Shea was crumbing Psychologist D1 which is why I saved him N1. I'm not outting my N2 target because they are TPR I think.

Why i don't believe you.

~

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment.

Time to try to engage frogsterking on his level.

Psychologically speaking I find messiness to be way more town indicative than scum indicative.

[Frogsterking]

I mean you not telling target of N2.

Do you acknowledge there's living vigilante and you could just saved mafia target (SO THEY KNOW WHO YOU PROTECTED ALREADY) or Vig target?
Unless Vig have gate or choose not shot (WHICH I DOUBT).


I believe real doctor would understand that.

YOU DID NOT SHOOT FIREB

[Frogsterking]

I mean you not telling target of N2.

Do you acknowledge there's living vigilante and you could just saved mafia target (SO THEY KNOW WHO YOU PROTECTED ALREADY) or Vig target?
Unless Vig have gate or choose not shot (WHICH I DOUBT).


I believe real doctor would understand that.

YOU DID NOT SHOOT FIREB

That is such a bad shot

[Frogsterking]

I mean you not telling target of N2.

Do you acknowledge there's living vigilante and you could just saved mafia target (SO THEY KNOW WHO YOU PROTECTED ALREADY) or Vig target?
Unless Vig have gate or choose not shot (WHICH I DOUBT).


I believe real doctor would understand that.

YOU DID NOT SHOOT FIREB

That is such a bad shot

Enchant is clear now I think

[Frogsterking]

That is such a TERRIBLE shot lmao

[Frogsterking]

wha

You crumbed Vig too hard

[Frogsterking]

???????

Wdm, there's two death masons at night 1, and only one kill at night 2, so it's not hard to presume you could had stopped one.

Yeah no shit

[Frogsterking]

Elements is a fucking busser

[Frogsterking]

Does scum!Enchant really pretend not to know what macho means? lol

I was about to comment on this lol

[Frogsterking]

Vig, shoot Grib tonight

Then I'm thinking it's NM or Bella

Yeah right

[Frogsterking]

Man Elements really just does not feel like scum.

I’m bad.

For me their interactions were really good on D1 but not on D3 at all

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE:

God I feel like I need to reread the whole game.

It's just AtE they are trying to psyche you out, the scum tells are still there. I agree with reading the game through though.

[Frogsterking]

Vig, shoot Grib tonight

This is so theatrical

[Frogsterking]

what have I said that's emotional in any way?

Here:

What does macho mean?

You reset the dynamic between you two by making Grib feel like the higher status.

[Frogsterking]

Vig, shoot Grib tonight

This is so theatrical

I work in theatre

Yes it shows. I used to work in theater as well

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Bella

I'm the vig, guys.

I TRIED TO WARN YOU GUYS. I told you exactly what she was up to.

[Frogsterking]

Tbf what frog has said has happened...

I'm not stupid/crazy lol

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Are you opposed to kicking nm out the game before the second mafia and if so why?

Is it to early to ask frog to claim?

These aren't Town motivated questions

[Frogsterking]

I had some things to say that are better left unsaid.

Is it time for you to say them yet?
You still haven't said what these things are/were

I'm ready

Ready as well.

This probably isn't the best thing to say but please put me out of my misery and vote Frog. He's really triggering me right now and I just want him to flip

Elements is hiding in plain sight right now

[Frogsterking]

Then why say that you had things to say at all?

Now everyone is going to want to know what it is you shouldn't say!

I had some things to say that are better left unsaid.

Is it time for you to say them yet?

Is it to early to ask frog to claim?

Why i have bad feeling

Is it because you know Frog is going to flip town?

[Frogsterking]

Three Masons, Vig, Doc. Five confirmed town in a twelve-person game? Is that common or even reasonable?

Thirteen, my bad.

Yeah there’s no way that half of the game’s villagers are TPRs.

I can't find the quote from implosion but the principle is 3 powerful TPRs per scum PR.

I think you're overvaluing the power of Masons quite a bit. In the Normal PR tier list, vig is top tier, doc is high tier, and masons are mid tier.

viewtopic.php?p=13500924#p13500924

My theory is that scum have two PRs (like a roleblocker and a watcher) and we have something like an unclaimed traffic analyst.

[Frogsterking]

That is a very specific role I’ve never even heard of.

It's a PT cop except it doesn't score a hit if there isn't anyone alive in the PT to talk to.

[Frogsterking]

Town

Vig
Traffic analyst
Doc
2/3 Masons (macho)
4/5 VTs

Scum

Watcher
Roleblocker
Goon

__

This is what I'm imagining here.

[Frogsterking]

That is a very specific role I’ve never even heard of.

It's a PT cop except it doesn't score a hit if there isn't anyone alive in the PT to talk to.

So it won't be able to guilty the last remaining scum or get a false guilty on a last remaining mason because there is no "traffic" in their PT.

[Frogsterking]

Massclaim?

Somebody should figure out if this is a good idea.

I gave it like five minutes of thought and I don't see it hurting massively (I doubt there's like, that much left for Town to claim anyway), so I would be pro massclaim. Let's say I'll demand a popcorn massclaim in 12 hours or so, unless someone tells me not to do it?

Also, summary of current claims:
Frog - Doctor - protected TSQ N1, protected ??? N2.
Bella - Vig (not a full claim) - vigged HPE N1, did not act N2.
Not Mafia - "Mason"

I was on Enchant N2 cuz I thought they were vig

[Frogsterking]

Nah.

Somebody else talk to Eira.

I'll do it.

You been drinkin Eira?

[Frogsterking]

Nah.

Somebody else talk to Eira.

I'll do it.

You been drinkin Eira?

?

Have you been drinking again? I remember you drunk posting in that one mini normal game we played.

[Frogsterking]

Lmao Eira's been drinking

[Frogsterking]

Lmao Eira's been drinking

i rarely do. but grib voting me cos my name is E makes me wanna

Why aren't you voting Elements?

[Frogsterking]

yeah if you say so. i havent but fuck the police anyway so : /

Deep stuff yo

[Frogsterking]

Ok. Bella has an idea of you. She hasn't mentioned you at all this phase, so it has nothing to do with the role reveals. What are you talking about?

I think they know each other

[Frogsterking]

I still want to lim frog

That's anti town af, I'll be dead tomorrow anyway. Though you're starting to seem tsbs.

[Frogsterking]

Lmao Eira's been drinking

i rarely do. but grib voting me cos my name is E makes me wanna

Why aren't you voting Elements?

There's no way i'm voting elements today, i've said this already?

I don't recall you saying this.

[Frogsterking]

Dodgy behavior from the E team

[Frogsterking]

"The physician must be able to tell the antecedents, know the present, and foretell the future — must mediate these things, and have two special objects in view with regard to disease, namely, to do good or to do no harm."

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/fir ... 1510138421

Of the Epidemics

~

If you could maybe go for a quick walk, off the edge of a cliff or something, I'd be very grateful

I despise you send your whole family

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: Elements

And I can help but read all of Frogs posts since claiming with a hint of "haha you can't touch me I'm a confirmed TPR" which really rubs me the wrong way.

If you're Town--DOUBT--maybe instead of being resentful you could try actually learning from your mistakes. ~48 hours ago you were demanding that NM and Enchant quickhammer me before I could claim because you didn't like what I was saying. You do a lot of VCA but you don't seem to ISO much and think about what motivates people and I consider that scummy and/or bad Town play. Because of you all/most of our TPRs are outed sooner than necessary. I could have gotten a clutch save on N3 but now I'm fucked.

[Frogsterking]

who else do you think if scum Frog?

I don't know. I'm going to walk to Starbucks and reread Grib to see if I find anything.

[Frogsterking]

Hold your horses, I found some leads in Grib's ISO. I got a chai latte earlier which didn't have enough kick for me, so I'm actually grabbing some more laundry money and headed back to Starbucks again so I can drink something with more horsepower while I compile my thoughts.

Here's a sneak peek of what's to come:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

My ideas are based partially on the concept of transference and how it applies to mafia. There's a chance this may have caused me to misattribute some of Grib's motivations onto those he was interacting with.

I don't think Frog is scum

I'm not enjoying playing with them

I don't know what to say. I feel like apologizing because I get toxic a lot headed toward the late game (which I then don't actually reach because I get mislimmed), but in this case you were the one who told me to kill myself and my family, so it feels like I would be a self-loathing people pleaser if I apologized? I'm about to get solvey so maybe it will be easier to work together since you seem to like that?

If you're Town then it's best we don't fight for the next 24 hours. I'm open to constructive criticism on my ideas (as long as it's constructive.) If you're scum though then feel free to come at me, it will help me read you

PEdit:

I don't think so because that's what the role "checkers" are for. That is like...their only ability, to know if their ability was roleblocked. Their actual ability itself has no effect on their target.

[Frogsterking]

What are the odds that this team has two mafia goons?

Vig/Doc/Masons/whatever Eira might be vs goon/goon/???

I had game with Loyal Vig.

Oh yeah do you remember what happened between Crescent and I in that endgame we reached? I think that's the only endgame I've gotten to play in forum mafia (that was also the game where I replaced into Fire's slot halfway thru.)

[Frogsterking]

Aww look at him, he can't resist not making a serious claim xxx

Also, I just hope everyone is doing ok and I'm sorry to read several of you are kind of having a bad time.

I got a chai latte earlier

Good choice!

Thank you.

[Frogsterking]

I don't think Frog is scum

I'm not enjoying playing with them

I am sorry I upset you by the way. It's not true that only you were toxic because I did troll you because I was bitter that you wagoned me so hard, especially after I had to out I was rubbing it in your face and I think that is just as mean as what you said. I don't really believe you did anything wrong because you seem to have a method you were following which is objective and I'm not entitled to not being scumread and wagoned. I also think you may be right that it's

partially

my fault people wanted to vote me because I did disappear from this game a lot and I barely posted or worked on my reads after D1. In my mind I told myself that I was playing well because I was avoiding the NK by being quiet but I think in reality I was lying to myself and being lazy.

[Frogsterking]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Ah.

The difference is I've been making an active attempt, whereas I personally don't think HPE has. Also nobody has complained about the number of HPE's posts.

And what I meant was, you might not be able to convince me, but your future actions might, or your past actions might after some flips or role reveals. Or someone else's read of you will resonate with me. But you arguing for your own alignment probably isn't going to work. Same thing with me trying to show you that I'm town.

Oh
If Grib is scum this is genius

This crosses through one of the points I was looking at!

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Grib

"Transference is when someone redirects their feelings about one person onto someone else. During a therapy session, it usually refers to a person transferring their feelings about someone else onto their therapist.

Countertransference is when a therapist transfers feelings onto the patient. Both transference and countertransference usually happen unconsciously."

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/wha ... ansference

~~~~~~~~

This vibe is super fucking weird.

I'm going to be surprised if you're both town here. Honestly, it reads like hard distancing, but I can't imagine what the team would have to be for this to be a viable strategy.

Hey Grib, how are you?

...

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and

there's a reasonable chance he's scum

. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

Fuck. That was a kick to the ball sack.

...

This post is @BBT but I don't feel like quoting his large post.

I had a silly thought over Night 1 that if mafia shot HPE, TSQ would tunnel me for this phase and either succeed in getting me eliminated or ruin any towncred I had. Given that no one besides him has really shown any interest in scumreading me, I figured it was the mafia's best bet to get me back in the elim pool. I would say the major difference between my scumread and yours is that you already looked bad and were a viable wagon because of your argument with him, while I looked questionable at best near the end of Day 1.

Regarding the buddying and my request of your past town games, I thought that maybe you just wanted to have a villager pocketed and picked Bella by having an empty (meta) townread on her. When I asked you about your past meta reads, I didn't mean on Bella specifically, I was referring to any instance where you were a villager and relied on meta to read someone else. Because if this isn't something you normally do as a villager, then it just looks like a fake townread.

I see.

If it helps, I town read Bella after she was tracked to a kill. And then defended her. I have a tendency to just town read her for some reason.

...

Also, ideally, I wouldn't have to summon you to do the one thing town is supposed to be doing. Observing that you aren't really engaged is hardly talking about you.

If you want to sort me talk to me, not about me.

Scum struggling to engage with the game without someone providing an angle for them...

Just incase anyone was wondering.

~~~~~~~~

I hate "overdefensive" as a thing that people say in mafia games.

It's a buzzword that means nothing. Townies defend themselves. Sometimes excessively. Overdefensiveness is not alignment indicative in literally any way.

That definitely isn't what you did.

Yes, it is.

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

And clearly my questioning of why you were focusing on such a non aspect of my post was me questioning your alignment.

You're scrambling now and you're still not answering my questions.

...

Will be getting to this tonight at some point. If not, for sure over the weekend

How about everyone votes BBT instead.

We have a bunch of people who seem not willing to wagon at all.

...

If you don't think those posts are you pushing me then I don't know what to say...

If you think "please explain your reasoning for this because I don't like it and I don't like your tone" is pushing then honestly I question if you've ever played mafia before.

...

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead, but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation.

This is just more buzzwords, you're very clearly struggling to explain this read.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead, but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation.

This is just more buzzwords, you're very clearly struggling to explain this read.

Town is way more likely to struggle to explain reads than scum is.

~~~~~~~~

I meant, what peopel have to say about it when I lay out the reasons. But you're right, I don't think I'm going to get much out of waiting.

The problems I have with that vote are

1) it was waaay too early to accuse Firebringer of not wanting to have reads.
2) it was also too early to accuse scum of not wanting to fill out your survey - barely half the game had posted at that time.
3) you didn't explain why scum would or would not interact with your quiz.
4) I purposefully ignored your quiz to see what you would do about it, and you didn't react at all, which makes me think that 2 was complete bull.
5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

this is a scum post. poking at things that are surface level and look weird but at their core don't have any particular reason why scum would do them rather than town.

I think the whole song and dance that grib did wrt me and frogster falls into the same category of just performative nonsense.

I don't think you think any of this actually helps you find scum.

VOTE: grib

Realistic attempts to sorts don't look like this, generally, this is what scum posts when they want to look involved in the thread but don't have anything real to push on.

Eh, yeah, that's about what I expected from Shea. There's always at least one player every single game who dislikes either me or my playstyle and then finds a way to scumread me for it.

Probably just going to ignore and play around that slot, to be honest, because if he's a villager there's like 0% chance he ever extends an olive branch.

...

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

Well, people are complaining about consolidating and not having a last minute rando wagon. Let’s be real, the only real momentum the BBT wagon had was due to your case, and I decided that wasn’t enough for me. I paid more attention to the people saying that BBT often gets flack for playstyle.

Anyway, Solway has momentum, that slot isn’t villagery enough imo, there were some takes I agreed with but I also massively feel like he’s making easy posts. Which is ??? when he did say that this game his thoughts are much more fleshed out than he usually plays.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think I reevaluated BBT twice? I voted him fairly early, then Shea did his reaction test, I stayed to see what would happen, I moved to HPE at some point, and then switched back to BBT because Shea shaded me for vanity voting.

Shea shades a lot tbh.

...

Part of my issue with grib is that basically all his analysis seems completely on the surface, and he keeps demanding people justify themselves to him without really giving much justification of his own outside of very baseline stuff.

Like ironically if I'm looking for someone in this thread who is trying to make sure he has Reasons TM for everything he's doing and every progression it's grib, the problem is I haven't really found any of those justifications to be compelling.

I don't think not being compelled by my reasons is at all the same thing as my stances not being as justified as you (or anyone) would like them to be. You can think someone explained themselves well or has good reasons for thinking a certain way, and still disagree with the premise of what they're saying. I just think you're conflating the two.

I'm happy to elaborate on anything I've said that's lacking.

...

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

Independent of the read on BBT, the mindset of this post is pretty bad. I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

Hmmmmm.

Sorry, "I hear you and I'll drop it" doesn't work on things that happened seventy pages ago? What are you trying to say with that post?

seventy posts, not pages

~~~~~~~~

So when he said his Bella read was based on meta, that set off alarm bells. I’m leaning towards that fake read being used to pocket Bella, rather than shield her from pressure.

Why do you think it's more likely a pocket attempt?

I guess because the alternative is just bad play imo.

If BBT gave a meta townread on Bella with no substance when he is publicly vocal about hating meta reads, and Bella soft-townreads him and pokes and prods at non-BBT options when he's getting run up, then they just both get axed.

Okay maybe what I'm trying to say is that it feels way too easy.

the problem I have with "way too easy" reasoning is that just proves it isn't
if that makes sense

...

I think I'm good with the posting tonight. I didn't expect to post at all but the opportunity to poke Elements was too tempting.

Gonna make myself log off for the night.

Expect to see some posts from me when you wake up. Possible pointed at you. I'm half running down the player list looking at people in between interacting with the active people

...

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Are you opposed to kicking nm out the game before the second mafia and if so why?

...

Unvoting me while goading others to vote me is pretty cowardly.

He’s probably voting Eira because Eira won’t cooperate. And has also has basically no interest in finding mafia, at least from what I can see.

I'm not voting you cos there's no point if no one else is

...

See: my panic start of day two where I vigged a mason.

Bella, can you quote the panic post? I can't find it.

Enchant isny claiming vig, are they?

I really don't like aisa's position on me today, btw

I think this points to Bella vig if that's what you're questioning Grib

...

I low-key want to die so I won’t have to deal with the inevitable clusterfuck that Day 4 will be.

VOTE: Enchant

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Enchant

Despite thinking I'm likely scum you're very happy to follow my vote

~~~~~~~~

This is what I'm seeing when hunting. I used two different methods I'm into which are experimental but promising. They're called elimination by pathing and tracking the transference. They're both mainly based on spatial reasoning rather than verbal reasoning. In summary, Grib chooses high EV paths for scum and the scumminess from different slots originate from Grib. There is a point where Grib makes a big play by keeping his vote on BBT instead of me which increased his win rate (because of how he used the credibility) by giving him better chances to end game. Grib played a hand in outing the roles D3 but took a less visible route than Elements did (because he's informed I think.) The Shea kill was also extremely beneficial for Grib. I'm between

low

and

moderate

certainty on my Grib read which isn't great but it's the best I've got. I suggest we vote Grib instead of NM.

[Frogsterking]

Can you explain what you mean by “the scumminess from different slots originated from Grib?”

Yeah! Thank you for asking.

A good example is from 1545 when I accused Elements of role phishing in 1518. When I compare 1515 with 1518 and I give it a while to sink in, I can realize that subconsciously 1515 pinged me as much as 1518 did if not more so. In other words, I was acting as though it was only 1518 which was pinging me, when it was really reading 1515 right before it which pinged me.

If you imagine it's the writers of the posts who are pinging us as much as the posts themselves, you can see that I was attributing "scumminess" to Elements which was really being caused by Grib. This has been happening in a pattern due to transference from Grib into Elements. Because I can keep tracing the scumminess back to Grib, that is a sign that Grib is a better chance to actually flip scum because deep down I am recognizing something there, even though my brain may try to trick me into thinking it's other players who I'm recognizing something in.

The part that was difficult was arranging the posts together in pairs that show where the pings are really coming from, and then doing that enough times to trace who is transferring "scumminess" into who.

[Frogsterking]

I'm at my girlfriend's parents house and her dad is super cool. He gave me like 5 shots of some 105 bourbon proof bourbon with a marketing gimmick where they put it in a barrel and send it down the Mississipi (spelling?) River. I remembered the deadline is creeping up on us here so I'm popping in to say hello. Have we got a dragon goinvg on Grih yet?

[Frogsterking]

we're onto NM

But if Frog is doctor, then... Vig can shot him as well? So no point eliming?

I was thinkkng maybe. Yiu mean Grib?

[Frogsterking]

I went to look at the normal roles to see if there was one that makes sense for Eira not to claim

Eira shoudl cla8m