Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Thestatusquo]

I'm V/LA for this weekend watching my mets lose to the padres but I think we'd be better off not voting N_M and just letting him do his normal lurk forever and never post anything of relevance shtick for a while, just for old times sakes.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Frogsterking because I want him to start scum reading me early.

[Thestatusquo]

RVS VOTE: Aisa because Aisa-what-she-did-there.


SSS (standard survey start)

I have some ideas for changes I'd like to implement so this will likely be the last time I use this version of the SSS. I promise to protect the secrets of your mind and keep our dreams of finding scum alive. Don't miss your last chance to fill it out!

__

Rate each descriptive statement on how well it describes you using the Likert scale (1 = strongly disagree to 5 = strongly agree).

"Get angry easily" =

"Take charge" =

"Make people feel welcome" =

"Like music" =

"Like to tidy up" =

"Like to visit new places" =

"Feel comfortable around people" =

"Interested in many things" =

"Love order and regularity" =

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" =

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" =

"Cheer people up" =

"Lose my temper" =

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" =

"Enjoy thinking about things" =

"Cheat to get ahead" =

"Feel desperate" =

"Rarely overindulge" =

"Easily resist temptations" =

"Have a high opinion of myself" =

"Waste my time" =

"Need a push to get started" =

"Have little to contribute" =

"Keep my cool" =

"Avoid crowds" =

"Turn my back on others" =

Here's my survey. Why did you kill the innocent townsfolk last night?

[Thestatusquo]

Hi I'm still not reading the thread because of baseball related vla.

I hope everyone is having a wonderful time so far.

[Thestatusquo]

I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable and very public information. There's literally no point. What, was he banking on you not remembering?

In my limited understanding of frogster he doesnt tend to care about what is likely to be true very much.

[Thestatusquo]

What's weird about it? The baseball game I was at ended at like 11:40. I walked to my hotel and I posted. I didn't even read that before I did lol.

[Thestatusquo]

Scum lean on Shea what the fuck

Even if I claimed scum by using verifiable screen shots you wouldn't have the ability to lim me.

Anyway, gunna pass out now. Keep having fun folks.

[Thestatusquo]

No I can't share them with you.

You would actually be able to get a lim on me.

[Thestatusquo]

No I can't share them with you.

You would actually be able to get a lim on me.

Is it a complete coincidence that you happened to start posting shortly after Frog called you out?

What's weird about it? The baseball game I was at ended at like 11:40. I walked to my hotel and I posted. I didn't even read that before I did lol.

Literally had not even read a single post in the thread since my last post. This is all verifiable information. I am V/LA in NYC for the mets series, walked to my hotel after the game, posted hey I'm not reading hope everyone is having fun.

I promise you I am in no way scared of frogster. Nor do I believe he is capable of catching anyone no matter how much they post. If you look at my games you'll see I'm an omega poster as either alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't really even know what the accusation is here, bud.

Are you saying you think frogster said "I'm gunna go call you out in thread" and then I was like "oh cool I'll respond to it immediately. As scum its very important to make sure your actions seem as coordinated as possible."

[Thestatusquo]

Nor do I really do scum theatre for that matter, but self meta etc.

[Thestatusquo]

Though I'm pretty sure fb has rolled scum with me and can pretty easily confirm I'm not the "hey everyone lets plan out how we're going to interact with each other!" type because its a pretty stupid way to play mafia.

[Thestatusquo]

I want to make it very clear I meant that firebringer rolled scum with me THIS game.

[Thestatusquo]

Which is why I gave more information than that? About like, how literally the game ended and I posted 10 minutes later because that was when I had removed my pants and was lying in my hotel room with my laptop pointedly refusing to read the thread.

A full timeline of my day, for the True Scum Hunters:

1am-2am I play slay the spire with Ariel and Ametrine in the MS discord voice.
2am-4am I watch nonsense videos until I fall asleep.
11am I wake up and walk to a bagel place for coffee and real bagels because you can't get them in chicago.

11am to 12pm I eat bagels and watch some youtube.

12pm to 3pm I go play chess in the park because I've always wanted to do that
4pm I get back to my hotel and shower
430pm I get in an uber to go meet up with lilith.
5:15 PM I get dinner with Lilith. She is delightful.
7:37 the mets game starts
~9pm buck showalter bunts with 2 on and no one out like an absolute twit.
~10pm-11pm buck showalter brings edwin diaz into the game in the 7th for no discernable reason and then leaves him in to pitch the 8th despite the fact that the mets have scored 4 runs.
11:40ish game ends. I walk back to my hotel room and make said post.

I hope that my itinerary is useful for you determining my buddy equity with frogster. A player I am pretty sure I would simply bus immediately if I were ever scum buddies with him.

I'm having a really nice vacation though. Hope the mets can win tomorrow.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not being defensive, I'm making fun of you.

I'm sorry that wasn't clear.

[Thestatusquo]

Nope. I'm mocking you. There is nothing in this thread that makes me feel the need to defend myself.

[Thestatusquo]

Nah why would I use anything besides my whole ass to make fun of someone who is saying something as ridiculous as you are?

[Thestatusquo]

I meant, what peopel have to say about it when I lay out the reasons. But you're right, I don't think I'm going to get much out of waiting.

The problems I have with that vote are

1) it was waaay too early to accuse Firebringer of not wanting to have reads.
2) it was also too early to accuse scum of not wanting to fill out your survey - barely half the game had posted at that time.
3) you didn't explain why scum would or would not interact with your quiz.
4) I purposefully ignored your quiz to see what you would do about it, and you didn't react at all, which makes me think that 2 was complete bull.
5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

this is a scum post. poking at things that are surface level and look weird but at their core don't have any particular reason why scum would do them rather than town.

I think the whole song and dance that grib did wrt me and frogster falls into the same category of just performative nonsense.

I don't think you think any of this actually helps you find scum.

VOTE: grib

Realistic attempts to sorts don't look like this, generally, this is what scum posts when they want to look involved in the thread but don't have anything real to push on.

[Thestatusquo]

5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

this is how i felt about my interactions with frog in the last 2 pages after i said he was scum and he changed it to town then said i have a good read of what he is doing.

now im just confused when half o what i said was like "ur trying to appear town and i don't know why" but i think he was going for "trying to create conversation out of nothing" agreeing with the latter but ignoring the former and was just trying to find common ground.

Im sitting her going ok. Why does it feel like ur buddying me and grib here.m.

I don't want to focus too much on frog though i think this thread could be exploding in too much posts if we just do this back and forth.

Frog doesn't make complete sense but im like less on scum lean than i was before. Still weak scum right now.

Literally, if it hadn't been for that vote, I think I would be townreading him here. There's too many red flags for me to give him the BOTD, but the phase is young.

too many red flags? Come on man. There's nothing here and you know it. This waffle bullshit too refusing to actually take strong stances where either way you can be right.

[Thestatusquo]

Alright I've read up. All of you need to re-think your grib townleans. It's the most obvious fluff posting nothing burger that he presents as if its some sort of deep scum case.

And then waffles on while saying hed probably be town leaning.

My brother in christ it was page 6.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't care.

[Thestatusquo]

Enchant isn't doing anything they're probably scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Scum team is like grib enchant frogsterking or something.

[Thestatusquo]

im chill voting frogster

why not enchant

[Thestatusquo]

Eh, yeah, that's about what I expected from Shea. There's always at least one player every single game who dislikes either me or my playstyle and then finds a way to scumread me for it.

Probably just going to ignore and play around that slot, to be honest, because if he's a villager there's like 0% chance he ever extends an olive branch.

No need to extend an olive branch if you do townie things. Explain how any of the things you mentioned are more likely to come from scum frogster than town frogster, please. The "I guess I just need to play around the slot" ain't a townie response to one bit of pressure even a little bit.

[Thestatusquo]

I've played with people like you before. If I think you're just not going to cooperate with me on principle (which I do), I will play around you. You were kind of rude to me before for no real reason.

The whole point of my "case" on Frog was that those things bothered me, I asked Frog to clarify, and he actively chose not to. That certainly isn't townie, and kind of lends credence to my theory that Frog isn't town.

This isnt an answer to my question, which was very specific.

[Thestatusquo]

I did answer the question.

You did not. I asked you what made the miriad of things you listed about frogger to be more likely to come from scum than town. You have not answered that.

[Thestatusquo]

So with that in mind (the main point in my mind being that Frog is Hard To Read but Catches Scum Pretty Early), I, a villager that knows next to nothing, notice some patterns in a couple of Frog's posts and I lay them out all nice and neat to see if Frog can explain why he did the things he did. He quotes the post but doesn't address anything. Several pages go by and still, nothing. What am I supposed to make of that?

Townie indignation fyi

@

Shea

Shea have you ever been BoPed before?

Burden of proficiency? Nah, I'm pretty bad as town.

[Thestatusquo]

No, I quoted a list of things you said about frog, I ask you why each of those things is more likely to come from scum than town. I am trying to figure out what your scum hunting process is because I don't think any of the things you said in the post I quoted are more likely to come from scum. So, if you disagree I'd like you to explain that.

[Thestatusquo]

yeah dont really agree with any of that and I think the claim that "frog is just a goofball" was pretty readily available when you posted the original thing.

[Thestatusquo]

HPE seems pretty town to me.

[Thestatusquo]

I hate "overdefensive" as a thing that people say in mafia games.

It's a buzzword that means nothing. Townies defend themselves. Sometimes excessively. Overdefensiveness is not alignment indicative in literally any way.

[Thestatusquo]

Like maybe if you drill down to a meta analysis of how players react to pressure you can find slight differences in SPECIFIC players but I think that even that is frequently better explained by general mood and tone of the person attacking them than alignment and it's almost never part of the analysis, just like its not here.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't like the dismissive tone in BBTs posts because it seems like its not productive towards doing anything BUT producing defensiveness and certainly not in solving for alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

I think you have your answer.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

I didn't even use the buzzword of 'overdefensive' that you keep referencing. I said 'Defensive much'. This isn't even a big thing and is certainly not the bulk of what was my response to Eira so why are you focusing on that?

So this is fun, because what I'm doing here is a reaction test called "deliberately weak argument."

Which is where I make a post with a bunch of interaction points in it and one of them is "deliberately weak." I.e. a point thats easily refuted and responded to whereas the others require actual work or analysis.

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment. Town is very interested in engaging with the actual meat of a post and discussing where the differences lie whereas scum tend to be more interested in discerning alignment.

This is one of the more blatant fails of the deliberately weak argument test that I've ever seen. Obviously you didnt say over defensive, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the questions I asked you which you completely ignored in order to ridicule me for using the wrong turn of phrase.

anyway VOTE: BBT

[Thestatusquo]

*scum tend to be more interested in winning the argument and less interested in discerning alingnment

is what that last line of the third paragraph should read.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, it is.

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

You're scrambling now and you're still not answering my questions.

[Thestatusquo]

Whether you said overdefensive or defensive much was completely irrelevant to my questions. And yet it was the only thing you chose to respond to in order to try to win the argument.

[Thestatusquo]

Whether you said overdefensive or defensive much was completely irrelevant to my questions. And yet it was the only thing you chose to respond to in order to try to win the argument.

[Thestatusquo]

Swap in "defensive much" and the questions are the same.

That was my whole point of doing this.

[Thestatusquo]

Is this that thing where no matter what I post I'm flailing? Flapping? Scrambling? etc etc.

This isn't a newbie.

You don't know how to respond so you keep trying to discredit me ineffectively.

It's classic caught scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Whether you said overdefensive or defensive much was completely irrelevant to my questions. And yet it was the only thing you chose to respond to in order to try to win the argument.

Because you clearly posted about it numerous times and continued with that line of questioning that was clearly bad.

and yet you still havent answered the questions and continue trying to discredit me by denying the reality that everyone can see in the thread. Why is the line of questioning clearly bad? Because you said so?

[Thestatusquo]

lmao.

[Thestatusquo]

This is the funniest day one caught scum I've ever had.

[Thestatusquo]

Please dear god everyone go back and read the exchange between me and BBT starting on post 346 and tell me with a straight face BBT is town.

[Thestatusquo]

Even though I get that TSQ is the one who brought up the point first so why wouldn't BBT reply to it etc.

My questioning of Eira was based on him not reading the game closely and asking him why his town read on you was so strong that he was willing to go bat for you even though he said it was based on vibes/gut. That was the bulk of my post which TSQ conveniently ignored.

That is not responsive to my questions. They were more specific than "explain what your questions were based on."

1) Why did you feel the need to call out his defensiveness if you don't think its a scum tell? (famously, according to you.) and

2) What was your goal in making the post and how does it help you discern his alignment, especially with the dismissiveness of your town how did you expect a town player to respond to you vs a scum player

[Thestatusquo]

oh no "your town" instead of "your tone." I have freudian slipped and now must die.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean the whole reason I decided to go with this play is I think that your play so far this game closely resembles that of a scum player trying to be aggressive and forceful in order to look like a town player trying to shake things up and get reactions but I don't think there's a lot in any of your posts thats likely to give you good information about anyones alignment which is generally the big difference between town being forceful like this vs scum trying to mimic that style.

[Thestatusquo]

I didn't call it out and I certainly didn't use it as a way to discern his alignment. Like, you're implying that I would have some sort of problem saying 'Hey you're being super defensive which is scummy' and you're still talking about defensiveness as well even though this new argument you have is based on how defensiveness was never a thing but now it is again.

I was wondering why Eira was so into hard defending Aisa despite the read not being strong and to wonder whether he was a) pocketing a potential townie by defending someone under pressure or b) looking to white knight someone who could potentially get elimmed

Like, that seems super obvious?

What dismissiveness are you referring to?

My whole point is that you're not using it to discern their alignment and therefore mentioning it serves no purpose other than a) dismissing them and b) poisoning the well. I am asking why you're mentioning it if you're NOT saying its something that gives you insight into alignment. Generally people have a point for what they say in games of mafia. So when you start with "defensive much" it sets the tone for the whole post, given that "defensive" is generally used as an attack in mafia.

To the second point what about your post would actually help you discern that information? It seemed like an attempt to provoke a response that would be emotionally charged and not that relevant. Did you expect Eirolox to be like "oh yeah I'm trying to white knight someone" or something? Did you actually think the question would lead to information about Eirolox's alignment?

[Thestatusquo]

Hm.

Can't say I have a ton of faith in the deliberately weak argument method but I want to see where it takes us.

Either he was doing that with me as well or he was just being annoying for fun.

Some combination of both. I wasn't actually doing DWA with you I was just annoyed with you for focusing on something I thought was stupid and trying to antagonize you to read you while doing it. I'm not sure I got anything useful out of it tbh.

DWA isn't like a slam dunk scum tell or anything but its a data point and the reactions to the reveal are pretty important to and I just don't see a world where BBT is town with how they've responded here.

[Thestatusquo]

I can appreciate you playing the game in a way that makes you happy, especially if you're on my team and conribute to solving the game. But I get easily tilted when deliberately antagonized, which I don't think is going to be worth much alignment-wise. And I don't like being mad at people in a game.

Whether what I focus on has value to you isn't super relevant to me, because I have to process the game with the brain between my skull, not yours.

Not being dismissive or condescending, just laying out my position as clearly as possible to minimize friction.

I appreciate this. I can't promise I won't try to antagonize you if I feel like I need to in order to fulfill my win condition but I also pretty strongly feel like the point of this is a game to have fun so I don't want to make the game unpleasant for you if I can help it.

So, long story short: Heard and understood.

[Thestatusquo]

btw if BBT flips scum Aisa's posts feel EXTREMELY bussy to me.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh no scratch that maybe it was TvT. Game hard.

what?

[Thestatusquo]

Nah, personality tests have no predictive validity how you're using them so I'll just continue to ignore it.

[Thestatusquo]

Not the way you're using it it doesn't.

[Thestatusquo]

I would be more open to listening to your idea about the Weak Argument Method even though it's clearly not supported by any research if you weren't so quick to put me down at every opportunity.

I think disagreeing with your methods does not equal putting you down. But I also don't think this is a productive use of either of our time, this argument. I do not buy your methods and I don't think there's anything you can say or do that will make me given my experience reading a bunch of your games.

The only thing that's annoying here is you trying to hold me hostage by saying you wont even consider my arguments unless I agree with your scum hunting methods. Which I'm just straight up not going to do because I've seen no evidence they catch scum anywhere.

[Thestatusquo]

Anyway, I doubt I'm moving off of BBT today and I don't like Bellephants response to it because its not really engaging with the point I'm making at all.

[Thestatusquo]

@mod feel free to add a he/him to OP for me.

done! -csf

[Thestatusquo]

I'm kind of confused by the "everyone posting is town and ughhhh" sentiments.

Everyone has posted in the last day except for one player. Most of them fairly substantively. Is there anyone in the lurkers y'all in particular want more conversation from?

[Thestatusquo]

I should have lurkers in scare quotes because I don't really think anyone is super lurking this game so far.

[Thestatusquo]

You criticised my page 1-2 read for being "surface level". What else do you expect? It's not like I presented it as anything different.

You said my argument was shallow and did the "I expected better quality from you" thing. Hey, I mean, maybe you're right and there's some sort of difference from my usual play that I cannot perceive. But I actually feel like I am the same Aisa as ever, and behind the quick-and-dirty "I tend to townread lots of quick posting" I did stop, reassess, and decide that I still wanted to stand by that tell.

it wasn't just surface level. it made no sense and when you later justified it. You self contradicted yourself, which isn't scummy itself. It just looks like ur trying to justify a read that made no sense which frankly why as scum do u need to do and u just go with this route of saying its just early feelings.

also theres lots of stuff shea is throwing out about BBT and i skimmed and should address it but tbh im just not that into it.

This ain't a fb town post either I don't think.

[Thestatusquo]

I think I have to be careful about reading you though. I want to catch you as scum pretty bad so that interferes with my ability to objectively analyze your posts. Luckily I have others to do it for me I suppose.

[Thestatusquo]

I dont care if you think I'm town or not.

[Thestatusquo]

This is just how nm plays. It's frustrating but not much you can do about it.

[Thestatusquo]

Time to try to engage frogsterking on his level.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.5.29

I know this is a thing you care about, how would you say BBT scores on this here.

[Thestatusquo]

Scumreading me doesn't need explaination. I am lurk
Townreading me doesn't need explaination. I am charismatic

Putting me in top townread and top scumread does. Funnily, mostly scum doing that.


Anyway vote Aisa pls, if she is mafia, i claim credit for that, if she is not, i blame you all for being fools and following me.

It's literally win-win.

why lurk on Asia tho? coming in with 'trust me i got a high charisma score' really ain't gonna cut it for me.

Overall bad expression

Can't explain it

is also something that I feel you need to expand upon. I'll get around to giving a more concrete take on why I think Asia is town, but right now I really expect more of a case here. i'm ok with folk being inactive, enchanted fae more so, but right now i'm gonna be looking at what exactly you and firebringer are saying about Asia, cos i'm not feeling it.

why are you ok with enchant in particular being more inactive?

[Thestatusquo]

that doesn't really answer my question at all.

[Thestatusquo]

i mean i like enchant, from the little we've interacted so : P I want an answer for why Enchant is on Asia, but i'm ok if folk aren't as active day ones..... the one doesn't cancel the other, and me liking enchant doesn't mean i'm not holding open the possibility that they're scum.... they're pretty much null to me, but i want them to peek in and change my mind >.>

I ask simply because my understanding of enchant's meta is that when they're not doing anything they're way more likely to be scum.

So it seemed a curious person to say that about in particular.

Not sure this is super important or anything but if you're town something to be aware of.

[Thestatusquo]

So vote BBT with me.

[Thestatusquo]

Idk I thought I laid out a pretty strong argument for why BBT is engaging with the game in a disingenuous way, and they have disappeared since that interaction.

[Thestatusquo]

Nah, just when you do scummy stuff.

[Thestatusquo]

They're accusing me of chainsaw defending you, which is an interesting accusation to make given that they previously stated they werent attacking you, so why would you need my defense?

[Thestatusquo]

I see I have picked a good avatar for fighting N_M.

Unfortunately I do not want to do that.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Can we just take a moment to enjoy and marvel at how pristine and wonderful these vote counts are.

CSF is a saint.

:^) -csf

[Thestatusquo]

When BBT flips scum it'll be a fun time then.

Likely this is anti-buddy equity for you in that world so thats cool.

[Thestatusquo]

Sometimes I wonder if people reading us will think we're buddies just because of our general will they won't they dynamic and clear dislike of each other reading like theatre.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Shea

Breadcrumb something something

Please respond to my question.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh you just did.

I'm not saying you're scum with BBT I'm trying to get you to vote bbt.

[Thestatusquo]

But that is a truly bizarre response.

[Thestatusquo]

Also i would caution anyone against putting firebringer in a town bin for that last round of posting. That's extremely within his scum range.

[Thestatusquo]

Herpa derp *towns about*

This post doesnt really fit into my idea of what town frogster looks like.

[Thestatusquo]

HPE is town.

[Thestatusquo]

Actually, I changed my mind. I’ll be V/LA for the weekend. Got a lot of plans, but also I want to obsess over the Dead by Daylight event.

Will probably do my reread Sunday or Monday.

TSQ, if you could at least help me understand the HPE townread? Or point to where you talked about it, if you did.

I don't have a satisfying answer for you, so I understand if you're not taking my opinion as gospel or anything.

[Thestatusquo]

It's funny that you read my reach out as a gotcha but I guess thats what I guess for reaction testing so damn much.

[Thestatusquo]

Herpa derp *towns about*

This post doesnt really fit into my idea of what town frogster looks like.

What do you even envision frogster scum to look like tbh cause i don't townread him, i think i made that clear but im struggling with what scum frogster looks like.


Cause theres points here where i go why does frogster scum do X. Seems antithetical to trying to convince people he town. Yet he wants townreads.
Ive been going back and forth lately on this

I do not feel confident about reading frogster rn.

[Thestatusquo]

How about everyone votes BBT instead.

We have a bunch of people who seem not willing to wagon at all.

[Thestatusquo]

BBT I'm willing to consider, though I'd probably want to do a reread and maybe find a case that is not your existing case. But I suppose doing all that is my problem, not yours.

I find this to be a pretty weird way of approaching the game. In one post you're like we need to wagon someone, which is generally true, then when I say ok, lets wagon here, you're like well I am willing to consider that but that's not generally how day 1 wagons work, they start with the smallest thing and then that leads to pressure that then in turn leads to action.

So it's like...I don't really understand your need for an airtight case to wagon someone and I'm having an even harder time squaring that with your stated desire to "find a consensus wagon" because like, homie, how do you think mafia works on day 1? We dont just all sing kumbaya and then hold hands and decide all together on one true scum candidate.

[Thestatusquo]

*willing to consider that but I don't really have enough information

My brain went faster than my typing.

[Thestatusquo]

I also don't think anyone has really dealt with my argument that BBTs response specifically ignoring the important parts and focusing on the hook they can use to make me look discredited represents a scum arguing mindset and not a town one. All the responses have focused on saying that BBT would continue to respond to me like they did after I attacked them (which I don't agree with either, but w/e) but ignore the fact that my point starts before that.

[Thestatusquo]

I am leaving frogster for now. I think they're a pretty easy d1 target for scum and I don't feel super confident there at the moment and I think the slot is going to resolve itself in the long run.

[Thestatusquo]

Nah, you said

ohh yeah and shea push on BBT is a nothing burger. I read it. Not impressed could go over point by point if anyone interested but mostly it amounts to pushing BBT for saying things that serve no purpose for alignment hunting (dismissing and poisoning well) - which i don't read that into the posts
like just this part

Which is not what my argument was. That was the cause of the discussion and questions that led to my argument, but it wasn't the reasoning behind why it was scummy, which was this:

I didn't even use the buzzword of 'overdefensive' that you keep referencing. I said 'Defensive much'. This isn't even a big thing and is certainly not the bulk of what was my response to Eira so why are you focusing on that?

So this is fun, because what I'm doing here is a reaction test called "deliberately weak argument."

Which is where I make a post with a bunch of interaction points in it and one of them is "deliberately weak." I.e. a point thats easily refuted and responded to whereas the others require actual work or analysis.

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment. Town is very interested in engaging with the actual meat of a post and discussing where the differences lie whereas scum tend to be more interested in discerning alignment.

This is one of the more blatant fails of the deliberately weak argument test that I've ever seen. Obviously you didnt say over defensive, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the questions I asked you which you completely ignored in order to ridicule me for using the wrong turn of phrase.

anyway VOTE: BBT

I didn't respond to you at the time because you claim to have read the exchange and didn't even end up with an accurate understanding of my argument, which I thought I was pretty clear about.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

I didn't even use the buzzword of 'overdefensive' that you keep referencing. I said 'Defensive much'. This isn't even a big thing and is certainly not the bulk of what was my response to Eira so why are you focusing on that?

The discussion which you're responding to is a followup to this interaction. This interaction followed by the post I'm just quoting is why I think BBT is scum, the discussion of my actual questions, when they actually got around to answering them, which is what you're talking about here, and my interpretation of that discussion is independent of this original point.

[Thestatusquo]

Town addresses my questions. Town doesn't spend their whole post harping on whether they said "defensive much" or "over defensive" while ignoring the rest of the post.

It's not 100% because scum tells never are but I think its more than enough for a day 1 wagon.

[Thestatusquo]

Aisa do you have a town and scum game of yours I could read?

[Thestatusquo]

gracias!

[Thestatusquo]

If I'm your strongest town read why are you voting someone who I am town reading while I am trying to wagon someone who you say you find equally scummy to that person?

[Thestatusquo]

oh you just unvoted. My question remains the same sort of, even though the genesis of it is moot. If you scum read BBT and I am your strongest town read who is also scum reading and trying to wagon BBT, why are you not voting BBT?

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

What posts would you describe as "long catchup posts"

And what about catching up is more likely to come from scum than town?

[Thestatusquo]

Spoiler: Shea post

I didn't even use the buzzword of 'overdefensive' that you keep referencing. I said 'Defensive much'. This isn't even a big thing and is certainly not the bulk of what was my response to Eira so why are you focusing on that?

So this is fun, because what I'm doing here is a reaction test called "deliberately weak argument."

Which is where I make a post with a bunch of interaction points in it and one of them is "deliberately weak." I.e. a point thats easily refuted and responded to whereas the others require actual work or analysis.

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment. Town is very interested in engaging with the actual meat of a post and discussing where the differences lie whereas scum tend to be more interested in discerning alignment.

This is one of the more blatant fails of the deliberately weak argument test that I've ever seen. Obviously you didnt say over defensive, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the questions I asked you which you completely ignored in order to ridicule me for using the wrong turn of phrase.

anyway VOTE: BBT

okay to rephrase and as much as i can steel man this. You argument is that BBT is hyper focused on a specific part of your points that was weakest to win argument (i.e acting bad faith because scum want to win the argument). He isn't engaging in deliberate good faith by engaging your stronger points (what is he doing that is helpful for discerning alignment? why is he being dismissive against Eira),

So i don't feel like i was too much off the mark unless im missing something again here. I said you were scumreading for dismissing/poisoning well, which isn't much different than acting bad faith but also ur using his reaction to show that he isn't engaging in your points and deliberately picking the weakest argument to respond to.

And I just don't read this interaction like that. I read it like You posted a reaction to his posts about his usage of the word defensive and then having following up thoughts to what he was doing and he pointed out he didn't say that and in the context of what he did say it was followed up with question mark. I feel like im getting lawery here or w/e.

I don't see this as right way of looking at engagement. It looks like missing the grass for the mountains or w/e.

this is just like...literally not what happened. Like its so much not what happened that I am questioning if you've even read any of it?

[Thestatusquo]

I should really really be digesting what shea was posting. But its friday and ive been running on like 3-4 hours of sleep each night this week. Very bad.

Anyways just want to say and i think i might too much in to a tunnely mode when i say this but post 572 felt like a post scum would make to over explain and justify moving to BBT. I feel like town response would been like TSQ has a point here, i am fine voting BBT.
Then voted

Now i want to say if she did THAT i might still see it in scummy manner. So maybe again im in tunnel mode.

As it so happens I agree.

[Thestatusquo]

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Then why aren't you voting there? Why are you ignoring my questions?

[Thestatusquo]

Spoiler: Shea post

I didn't even use the buzzword of 'overdefensive' that you keep referencing. I said 'Defensive much'. This isn't even a big thing and is certainly not the bulk of what was my response to Eira so why are you focusing on that?

So this is fun, because what I'm doing here is a reaction test called "deliberately weak argument."

Which is where I make a post with a bunch of interaction points in it and one of them is "deliberately weak." I.e. a point thats easily refuted and responded to whereas the others require actual work or analysis.

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment. Town is very interested in engaging with the actual meat of a post and discussing where the differences lie whereas scum tend to be more interested in discerning alignment.

This is one of the more blatant fails of the deliberately weak argument test that I've ever seen. Obviously you didnt say over defensive, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the questions I asked you which you completely ignored in order to ridicule me for using the wrong turn of phrase.

anyway VOTE: BBT

okay to rephrase and as much as i can steel man this. You argument is that BBT is hyper focused on a specific part of your points that was weakest to win argument (i.e acting bad faith because scum want to win the argument). He isn't engaging in deliberate good faith by engaging your stronger points (what is he doing that is helpful for discerning alignment? why is he being dismissive against Eira),

So i don't feel like i was too much off the mark unless im missing something again here. I said you were scumreading for dismissing/poisoning well, which isn't much different than acting bad faith but also ur using his reaction to show that he isn't engaging in your points and deliberately picking the weakest argument to respond to.

And I just don't read this interaction like that. I read it like You posted a reaction to his posts about his usage of the word defensive and then having following up thoughts to what he was doing and he pointed out he didn't say that and in the context of what he did say it was followed up with question mark. I feel like im getting lawery here or w/e.

I don't see this as right way of looking at engagement. It looks like missing the grass for the mountains or w/e.

this is just like...literally not what happened. Like its so much not what happened that I am questioning if you've even read any of it?

Like I deliberately in real time did a reaction test which I have used before which is you deliberately make a post that has a bunch of questions points in it and in those questions and points you deliberately include one that is either not true or easily defeated. Generally reactions will be on a sliding scale but the basis of it is that scum psychologically are more interested in winning the argument than they are discerning alignment, and town are the opposite. Town does want to win the argument too which is why its a sliding scale sort of thing.

The reaction to that was to respond to specifically the weak part of my post and not the parts that would be useful for alignment discovery. And an attempt to discredit me.

Like you're making it sound like I'm just saying on the balance I felt like BBT was not responding to me in good faith and I think that misses the fundamental justification for my point and for this scum tell as a whole.

So the argument can be represented syllogistically like this

1) Scum are more likely to focus on winning the argument than discerning alignment.
2) In a post with multiple points to answer scum will be more likely to focus on the easiest points to dismiss in an attempt to discredit.
3) Town will tend to do the opposite.
4) BBT didn't address the rest of my points at all and focused exclusively on the deliberately weak one
5) Therefore BBT is more likely to be scum.

Which of those points do you disagree with, exaclty?

[Thestatusquo]

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Then why aren't you voting there? Why are you ignoring my questions?

I’m pretty sure I responded to your questions, unless I’m missing something. I’m not voting BBT because I don’t scumread BBT enough to vote him.

You said they're you're highest scum read????

[Thestatusquo]

I think its extremely plausible.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not super interested in team solving day 1 though.

[Thestatusquo]

btw I'm still not quite sure why N_M is allowed to play mafia given that every time I've been in a game with him he does not in fact in any way play mafia.

Not entirely sure what he gets out of just lurking out every game he's in all the time.

[Thestatusquo]

Do you not see a fundamental difference in how we're arguing with each other right now and how BBT engaged with my post 360?

Like I think the fundamental disconnect here is you seem to be treating the engagement between me and BBT as if we had been engaged for a long time and that BBT and I had been attcking them and they were just sick of arguing with me or whatever, but that's not what happened. That was their initial engagement with me. I think that's relatively important because while I agree that town can sometimes get to a point where they're just sick of engaging with someone or on a point my assumption is that they usually go into an engagement attempting to actually answer the person who is talking to them rather than immediately going to discredit them based off of the very smallest amount of shade.

[Thestatusquo]

Sorry 360 is the post where i talk about it not the post I meant to reference which was my initial engagement post.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, go sleep bro.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree that I don't comprehend it.

[Thestatusquo]

Reading through the BBT/Shea fight, BBT’s reaction to Shea seems very avoidant of the actual questions Shea’s asking him. I also like the way Shea presents the case, his tone gives off legitimate charisma and annoyance meanwhile BBT comes off as more forced.

BBT's answers to Shea are focused on what was a very poor initial reason for pushing me. As soon as I read that, I didn't bother reading anything else in the post because the first part was so bad.

Why would I bother to engage further when the premise of the post is so far off-base?

This is disingenuous. You made the post that didn't answer the questions before I started pushing you.

Town get annoyed at people making bad pushes. Town get annoyed when people twist what they say or misrep it completely, too.

And that would be, again, relevant if you had reacted after I started pushing you instead of before. I reaction tested you, and then your reaction to that is why I started pushing you. This is a wild misrepresentation of what happened. Just go back and read. You made a post. I reaction tested you. You failed the reaction test. THEN I started pushing you.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

Once again, this is the initial post where I asked you the questions and did the reaction testing. Before that I set it up with this post:

I hate "overdefensive" as a thing that people say in mafia games.

It's a buzzword that means nothing. Townies defend themselves. Sometimes excessively. Overdefensiveness is not alignment indicative in literally any way.

Like maybe if you drill down to a meta analysis of how players react to pressure you can find slight differences in SPECIFIC players but I think that even that is frequently better explained by general mood and tone of the person attacking them than alignment and it's almost never part of the analysis, just like its not here.

And

I don't like the dismissive tone in BBTs posts because it seems like its not productive towards doing anything BUT producing defensiveness and certainly not in solving for alignment.

You're saying that using the term "overdefensive" instead of "defensive much" saying I don't like it and then asking you some questions about what you were trying to accomplish was a push so bad it caused you to ignore everything I said after? Yeah ok duder.

[Thestatusquo]

If you think "please explain your reasoning for this because I don't like it and I don't like your tone" is pushing then honestly I question if you've ever played mafia before.

[Thestatusquo]

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Umm, what?

Don't like that

Talk about your scum read on me, would you?

So the argument can be represented syllogistically like this

1) Scum are more likely to focus on winning the argument than discerning alignment.
2) In a post with multiple points to answer scum will be more likely to focus on the easiest points to dismiss in an attempt to discredit.
3) Town will tend to do the opposite.
4) BBT didn't address the rest of my points at all and focused exclusively on the deliberately weak one
5) Therefore BBT is more likely to be scum.

Which of those points do you disagree with, exaclty?

1. Town can just as easily be focused on winning an argument - it's the whole point of this game.
2. Town will focus on the part of a post that they consider the worst. If the whole premise of the post is off-base, why engage the rest?
3. Not true
4. BBT focused on the point that was flat out false.
5. Therefore you can't discern the difference between play-style and AI posting.

You can say all those things but historically that has not been my experience so I'll trust that over the caught scum saying whatever.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, I was suspicious of you. There is a difference between being suspicious of someone and pushing them. There is an even wider difference between that and a push that was so unhinged and aggressive that your only response to it was to shut down and avoid the conversation entirely?

It is simply put laughable to claim that those three posts amounted to such a bad and ferocious push that poor townie you just couldn't bear to respond any longer.

It's literally laughable.

[Thestatusquo]

I just don't buy any of your deal. What are your reads? You're voting me still for no reason.

[Thestatusquo]

Idk almost everyone else in the game seems to have decided I'm town for it so like taste it I guess.

[Thestatusquo]

Such bad reasoning. Much shit push. Very town read. Wow.

[Thestatusquo]

Any reasoning behind any of that or are you just going to throw out random names?

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah but then after my flip you die so

So then why would I be doing this as scum, again? You're not so good at logic, are you?

[Thestatusquo]

literally any of your reads.

[Thestatusquo]

You've posted a bunch of noise, yes, but very little signal.

[Thestatusquo]

It's really funny that you think I would get flipped d2 for being wrong on you if you flip green. I promise you that ain't happening. First because you're going to flip red, and second because I'm not getting limmed this game.

[Thestatusquo]

You must not be reading.

Nice buzzowrds. You do that a lot, too.

Just. Answer. The fucking. Question.

[Thestatusquo]

It's also funny how you keep trying to parrot back things I've said about your posting to you to try to score cheap points or make me mad or something but you don't really seem to know what any of them mean so it just reads like you're speaking gibberish when you do it.

It's a riot.

[Thestatusquo]

I know you don't.

Now, if you could give those reasonings for those reads.

[Thestatusquo]

When this push is looked on in hindsight with the information of my flip, there is no way you survive.

Everyone is wrapped up in this because there is very little else going on so 'fuck it, lim BBT'. It's happening a lot lately, it's cool. But you've dug so deep that you don't survive on my flip.

Why would I repost what I have already posted to someone who is a) scum reading me and b) not the least bit interested in what I have to say?

And yet, if you believe this, there's not the least bit of critical thinking that asks "why would the scum player decide to just trade one for one with a random townie on day 1"

I mean, again, its not true that this is what would happen. But this inconsistency in your though process is just more evidence that your attempts at reading people this game isn't genuine.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm pretty fucking great. I played DBD for seven hours because priorities.

TSQ, I don't think what you're doing is especially helpful. You're just beating a dead horse, and if you're correct, BBT is just going to wifom everything he says.

You could vote BBT out and then I will stop doing it.

[Thestatusquo]

Its fine we'll end up doing the stupid thing that always happens where everyone waffles around for 6 days and then panics and lims a lurker.

[Thestatusquo]

and then we'll have no information and be back in the same position tomorrow and everyone will be like waaaaaah why did we lim that lurker.

Or we could actually play this game the way its meant to be played and wagon people to force people to take stances and gain information and get claims and then actually have a productive elimination today.

That's what I'm trying to do. It would be nice if literally anyone was trying to help me instead of just sitting back and not voting and not wagoning anyone.

[Thestatusquo]

Your scum reads are 2 random lurkers.

[Thestatusquo]

Who you refuse to give me information on why they're scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I guess its unfair to say frogster is lurker but I don't want to sort him yet.

[Thestatusquo]

the two people besides you I'm most interested in wagoning are in your town reads.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh Aisa isn't in your town reads. But Solway is.

[Thestatusquo]

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

how do you think you get information in mafia? You do it by voting people and wagoning them? It's best to do that before 2 seconds before the deadline so you can actually use that information. I'm trying not to be rude but this is mafia 101 and you're now like the third person who has said something like this.

We need to wagon people. If you think there's a chance someone might be scum you wagon them day 1, thats how the game is played. You're never going to have certainty. I don't have certainty. The only people who have certainty d1 are informed because their role PM is red.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not tunneled at all. I have other people I think are scummy.

I just don't think BBT has done anything to make me town read them and I think my reaction test is certainly better than random for catching scum especially with how badly they failed it.

[Thestatusquo]

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

how do you think you get information in mafia? You do it by voting people and wagoning them? It's best to do that before 2 seconds before the deadline so you can actually use that information. I'm trying not to be rude but this is mafia 101 and you're now like the third person who has said something like this.

We need to wagon people. If you think there's a chance someone might be scum you wagon them day 1, thats how the game is played. You're never going to have certainty. I don't have certainty. The only people who have certainty d1 are informed because their role PM is red.

Gee, thanks for the lesson in mafia.

You're less wagoning and more tunneling. Wagoning involves other active participants, and no one has gotten above three votes as far as I recall. Which isn't a dig at you, just the whole vibe of this game has been pretty sleepy and stuck in a rut.

It would be a wagon if people who say things like "there's a reasonable chance they're scum" voted on it instead of voting off on a vanity vote. Can't think of who that might describe.

[Thestatusquo]

Or, if say, someone who says "BBT is my top scum read" voted for BBT instead of not doing that?

[Thestatusquo]

That's a big part of why I think I'm on the right track here is that there's a bunch of people who have been perfectly willing to say BBT is scummy or that they have a reasonable chance to be scum but none of them want to put their money where their mouths are.

There's two possibilities here:

The first is BBT is town and those people are scum trying to stay clear of the miselim because they know there's way more plausible deniability in the scramble to lim a random consensus at the very end of the day, OR BBT is scum and those people are scum who don't think there's enough pressure that they have to actually bus yet.

But solways response in particular to BBT as a vote candidate is not good no matter how BBT flips, and I kind of don't like your reaction either if you're saying theres a good chance they're scum.

Like, what better than "a good chance" do you expect to get d1?

[Thestatusquo]

Umm, 14 out of 21 people scum read me in a recent large (I had 0 town reads) and I was town.

Just saying.

Then maybe your town game sucks.

[Thestatusquo]

Me either to be fair.

[Thestatusquo]

And I think you're missing what I'm saying. You can't just pop in and see if things are happening. You have to make things happen.

[Thestatusquo]

Feel better!

[Thestatusquo]

Oh yeah we should note that enchant just likes to hammer stuff so we should try not to put people to l-1 until we're ready.

[Thestatusquo]

These votes are interesting.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Solway

[Thestatusquo]

I am worried that aisa is just like... Idk something making the posts seem worse than they are or something because i really have been pinged by almost everything they've done but it's like idk would scum really play in the way that Aisa is playing? I feel that way wrt hpe too. I don't think there's a lot of people who just post stuff this easily attacked as scum.

I'm kind of willing to wagon aisa and not willing to wagon hpe at all because with aisa there seems to be at least some idea of an agenda behind the posts but i don't really see that for hpe at all.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

[Thestatusquo]

How do you feel about grib

[Thestatusquo]

can you give me a why on that

[Thestatusquo]

seen nothing to make me pause to think i should reconsider it

:/ this makes me think you're not looking very hard.

[Thestatusquo]

im not. i don't have enough townreads to start relooking at them hard enough to question them that heavily.
Also ur been asking me to re-examine bbt quite a bit.
Solway is the point of conversation right now.
Now i should re-examine grib?

Its like the only townread i shouldn't take a look at is elements so far?

What you're picking up on is that we have pretty directly opposite reads and I want to unpack that.

[Thestatusquo]

I'll jump onto aisa though because thats a thing we agree on.

VOTE: Aisa

You should probably consider claiming because if we put you to L-1 enchant will just hammer, so this is L-2 but functionally L-1.

[Thestatusquo]

Mostly because I feel skeevy about the entirety of the people who are voting solway.

[Thestatusquo]

And because if I'm being honest my dream is that FB and I have a storybook game where we get over our previous differences and lim all the scum together and then walk off into the sunset.

[Thestatusquo]

thing is I still kind of think Aisa is just...off a little bit tonally but I am less sure that its scum indicative as other people are.

Aisa can you give me a three person scum team and give reasoning?

What do you think of the following people in addition:

HPE, Grib, Eiralox.

[Thestatusquo]

So, just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, you can't really articulate the difference between your HPE and Aisa reads beyond "some kind of agenda vibe."

Can't is not the same thing as won't.

[Thestatusquo]

I really want to evaluate frog later but I generally agree with the thoughts about him.

I actually like Aisa's analysis of those three slots.

[Thestatusquo]

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead, but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation.

This is just more buzzwords, you're very clearly struggling to explain this read.

Town is way more likely to struggle to explain reads than scum is.

[Thestatusquo]

Good scum tend to want to have justification for what they're doing. Town just throws out reads as they occur to them,

The result is that townie progression often looks way messier than scum progression. Scum players tend to not throw out reads that they can't articulate with justification because they want their progressions to look good. Townies don't care about that.

Psychologically speaking I find messiness to be way more town indicative than scum indicative.

[Thestatusquo]

Right but what I'm saying is that when a town player just feels someone is town, they're just gunna say it, even if they can't articulate why.

At the very least, I definitely do. I'm way less likely to do that as scum. If I can't articulate a good reason for why I feel someone is townie, I'm gunna just not say anything. If that person is my partner I'm probably more likely to try to bus them than try to defend them.

[Thestatusquo]

This gets a little messy when talking about me in particular because obviously I am aware of this and purposefully try to do stuff like this as scum to match my town game, but I think a lot of people don't. I therefore tend to think that just random assertions of towniness without a real justification are just way more likely to come from town.

[Thestatusquo]

Fwiw I'm pretty willing to flip either of sol or aisa. I think aisa's response to my pressure was pretty good.

[Thestatusquo]

I still think BBT is scum but I'm not really seeing the votes there.

[Thestatusquo]

My waffling is due to the fact that I'm not sure I see a world where aisa or soles to is scum with bbt and I'm still pretty confident BBT is scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm vibing with that post a lot.

[Thestatusquo]

I also think eirolox is town. They're not here a ton but when they are here there is a depth of analysis to their posts that makes me feel like they're really trying to discern alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

Part of my issue with grib is that basically all his analysis seems completely on the surface, and he keeps demanding people justify themselves to him without really giving much justification of his own outside of very baseline stuff.

Like ironically if I'm looking for someone in this thread who is trying to make sure he has Reasons TM for everything he's doing and every progression it's grib, the problem is I haven't really found any of those justifications to be compelling.

[Thestatusquo]

My issue with fire is that they are still on the same vote from page three. Like, that's just fucking weird.

How would you expect town firebringer to act if he still thinks the person he voted on page 3 is scum?

[Thestatusquo]

I went back and reread Aisa and grib's isos.

Hard for me to put a finger on it but there's just an earnestness to Aisa's tone that makes me town read them.

It's possible that could be me getting snowed but I just don't read it as someone who is being deceptive.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grib

[Thestatusquo]

I'm willing to switch to solway at DL if we need my vote. I'm not willing to switch to Aisa.

My preference is Bbt and then grib in that order.

[Thestatusquo]

Actually that makes no sense

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BBT

Theres a wagon here already.

[Thestatusquo]

My problem wasn't lack of elaboration, my problem was that I think your thought processes are surface level and not actually conducive to finding scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Like I don't think you're displaying very much critical thinking with how you're approaching getting reads. From the start of the game your approach has seemed to be to point at something that's slightly weird and scum read it vaguely without the next critical step of asking "is this more likely to come from scum or town"

[Thestatusquo]

I mean your attack on frogsterking in the early game, your attack on me based off the "weirdness" of me posting after frogster supposedly called me out, your insistence on continuing to press me on a HPE read that I am clearly not interested in talking more about.

[Thestatusquo]

I am saying you're scum because I don't think you're actually scum hunting. None of your takes feel like the takes of someone who is actually trying to figure out the scum because I think their surface level nature demonstrates a lack of curiosity towards whether or not you're right but rather is concerned with simply being able to point to a reason.

[Thestatusquo]

But I did give reasons for why the things that jumped out at me felt more scum-indicative than not. You just disagreed with them.

I tend to stick with asking "would town do this, yes or no?" rather than asking if scum would do it, because I find that scum players are, in general, more likely play in ways that defy expectations. But I also spent most of my mafia games in two communities and played with the same overlapping group over and over again, so there was a higher tendency for zany scumplays.

See, here's the thing: I do not think you're actually doing a lot of "would town do this yes or no."

Again, perfect example is your picking at the me and frogster thing. You didn't stop to think at all whether it would make any sense at all for me and frogster to purposefully do that as scum but it was a WEIRD THING you could point out to look like you were trying to find our alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

Your scum team of me HPE and solway is another example of just...complete lack of critical thinking. You think my play as scum would be to spend the whole day just saying my buddy is town for no reason and refusing to explain when asked? Why? In what world would scum act that way.

It's like you're stopping at baseline level of "I think HPE is scum, shea defended HPE, therefore shea must also be scum" without thinking that the world where I stick my neck on the line for a barely posting scum buddy for no reason and then steadfastly refuse to explain is essentially nil.

[Thestatusquo]

That's kind of a contradiction, no?

Even if you think the way I approach the game lacks critical thinking, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm trying to understand other players and leave little room for misunderstandings, or misconstruing their posts. You said yourself that I "demand" justification from other people, and that is precisely why. And I feel like you're not making that connection on purpose, which is one reason I'm entertaining a world where you're scum.

Do you feel the same way about my read on Solway?

Trying to exact words that people say is not the same as trying to understand why they're saying them.

What read on solway?

Is Solway trolling? The posts on this page look awfully troll-y.

What I really want to know is why BBT’s read on Bella meta-based.

I'm having a pretty time sorting reads. There's too many slots where I'm like, yeah their content isn't great but I think they could be villagers because they don't seem to care how they're read? Which is pretty annoying.

For example, I want to townread Elements because they clearly don't give a shit and had a fair amount of votes on them for most of Day 1. And they've had a couple of detailed takes that I agreed with, or that I felt were aimed to clear things up rather than cast doubt or confusion.

I have mixed feelings like that on them, HPE, Solway, and Eira. I'm completely ignoring NM and Enchant, don't really know what to do about them now or ever, unless they decide to start playing seriously Day 2 or 3.

VOTE: Solway Firth

I triple checked to make sure this wasn't E-1. I did skim the recent pages this morning and saw someone asked me why I put BBT at E-1. That was just a derp on my part. I counted five votes, placed my vote, and then had the number five in my head so I thought that was the fifth vote when it was most definitely the sixth.

Think Solway is clearly a good elim here. As we approach deadline his last five posts have all been nothingburgers about why he's taking BBT's Bella read at face-value. No idea where he stands on the rest of the game aside from his one readslist. No idea of his opinions on anything that's happened in the last handful of pages. All of the people he's scumleaning (or was scumleaning, if his reads are the same since he posted them) are on his wagon, so I would expect him to rethink what a realistic scumteam would look like here. But he's probably just going to vote Aisa because scumlean + self-preservation.

I see no real arguments for solway being scum. It's basically a lurker case.

[Thestatusquo]

Really, it sparked the possibility that you were either idly skimming the thread at the time and lied about it, or you were active in scumchat and someone else mentioned that Frog was baiting you.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. There's a next step that someone trying to discern my alignment would get to, which is: Is there any reason they would do this if they were scum? Why would shea lie about reading the thread as scum? Why would shea feel the need to respond to his scum buddy in that way?

It's surface level.

Throughout that whole interaction I never felt like you were actually trying to figure out if I was scum or not, you had just thought of one plausible scenario where you could say maybe I would be scum so you decided to throw it out into the thread.

[Thestatusquo]

I think grib knows the solve is a bit lame? Like I don't massively town read any of those three but that team just screams 'convenient'. I don't think it's sunny for him to suggest it though.

Like, I kinda think there's a scum in the lurker pile, a scum in the big ego posters and a scum in my middle pile. But again, life is never that easy.

@tsq, do you mean the push for solway is a 'lim all lurkers' push generally or just for grib?

I meant that grib asked me to respond to his reasoning on solway and for me his reasoning mostly boils down to "This slot is kind of inactive and there's momentum there."

I'd expect grib to have more reasons that that at the end of this day and at least a few that demonstrating he's actually thinking about the alignment of people rather than just pointing out convenient things.

[Thestatusquo]

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

[Thestatusquo]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

Independent of the read on BBT, the mindset of this post is pretty bad. I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

Hmmmmm.

[Thestatusquo]

Sorry, "I hear you and I'll drop it" doesn't work on things that happened seventy pages ago? What are you trying to say with that post?

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

Hmmmmm.

Just a demonstration of surface level reasoning. You're saying the bolded is scum indicative for...reasons you don't explain, but then you are literally almost word for word doing the same thing you called +scum in the second bolded part.

Presumably you'd know if you're town, right? I dont think either is +scum. I don't see a reason why they would be, but you doing the thing you say is +Scum just a few pages is a hilarious demonstration of the lack of critical thinking about discerning alignment that I'm talking about.

[Thestatusquo]

Both wagons reek.

[Thestatusquo]

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

Disagree
He was def trying to sort first ten pages
I don’t like this solway push of his but he is def sorting
Maybe it’s surface level to u tho w/e didn’t I say I was gonna stop arguing u on townreads or just bbt

He's not.

[Thestatusquo]

He doesn't actually scum read anyone.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not limming hpe

[Thestatusquo]

I don't want to touch frog yet either. Not because i town read him, because i don't, but because i feel like town is better off waiting.

[Thestatusquo]

Both wagons reek.

Nah, Solway is more likely scum than Aisa IMO.

think I agree with this.

[Thestatusquo]

But we could also just lim BBT instead.

[Thestatusquo]

I think frogs claim was heinous and I was shocked that town just...believed it completely?

Especially considering the claimed targets and him still being alive.

Allowing scum to say "this claim obviously works with mech for roles that we don't know are in the game and have no reason to believe are in the game" is just bad town play.

Shooting me was a good shot, I was pretty locked in and I'm pretty sure I would have never excepted that play from frog.

[Thestatusquo]

GG everyone, though.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think "town believed a obviously fake claim by obvious scum for two days and lost because of it" is over complicated.