Mini Normal 2291: Greentexts | Mafia Wins!

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Kowabungah

If I had to choose any slots so far which are +AI for scum then I'd choose this one.

9 and 12 pinged me too, I think that's just paranoia though.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Kowabungah

If I had to choose any slots so far which are +AI for scum then I'd choose this one.

9 and 12 pinged me too, I think that's just paranoia though.

Help me with the +AI thing

On a less speculative note I've observed variations of "hey x, this is a reference to that game where you and I were both Town" are more likely to come from scum at the beginning of the game. I'm not exactly reading into it much yet though it might also matter that herta is IC. On a highly speculative note I imagined that you sounded a little downbeat in your first 2 posts, which makes me think you drew a scum PM. At this point in the game, while you are my first "serious" suspect, it's relatively easy for you to get me to flip my read on you just by performing some scum hunting.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Kowabungah

If I had to choose any slots so far which are +AI for scum then I'd choose this one.

9 and 12 pinged me too, I think that's just paranoia though.

Help me with the +AI thing

On a less speculative note I've observed variations of "hey x, this is a reference to that game where you and I were both Town" are more likely to come from scum at the beginning of the game. I'm not exactly reading into it much yet though it might also matter that herta is IC. On a highly speculative note I imagined that you sounded a little downbeat in your first 2 posts, which makes me think you drew a scum PM. At this point in the game, while you are my first "serious" suspect, it's relatively easy for you to get me to flip my read on you just by performing some scum hunting.

Why bother having a scum read on me if you're going to tell me how to remove it?

Because if my read on you is correct it's going to be a pain in my ass to get you voted out today unless I'm really polite, slow, calm, boring, "good faith" etc. in how I run up your slot.

If my read on you is incorrect then I rather be persuaded to vote someone else sooner so I don't waste my time.

I don't think telling you what it takes to change my mind will have an impact on how good you are at faking Town posts. If you start writing fake solvey posts and it looks scummy then I'm not going to flip my read on you. If you start writing fake solvey posts and are good enough at scum posting to trick me then you were going to trick me regardless of what I told you anyway.

[Frogsterking]

RedFF it would be great if you have some follow up to that naked vote because I'm getting major scum pings from you already.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: geraintm

Youve caight me i am scum

VOTE: RedFF

Red's start is weak and I'm going to give Kowbunga a little space. I still believe Kowabunga's start (and subsequent response to me) is +scum I'm just trying to give them a chance first.


@

Red

I need to see something from you, Red, which doesn't ping me as scum.

VOTE: Clone

Scum found.

no no no no, its one of my many clones that could be scum you are looking for. Mr 23563

It would help me a bit to see a response to Clone from BBT.

[Frogsterking]

Biancospino is my only Town read so far (hi bianco!), I lean Town on Crescent, Elements and geraintm for a medley of reasons, I scum lean redFF, and finally I feel like the back and forth between Cephrir and Kowabunga is AI and I have some thoughts on it but it will probably take me ~24 hours to come to any meaningful conclusions.

JacksonVirgo is about to qualify as

the

slot who was "late to the party."
__

@

bianco

@

JacksonVirgo

can you give me second opinions on the BBT and Clone interaction?

#nullwars

__

RedFF it would be great if you have some follow up to that naked vote because I'm getting major scum pings from you already.

Youve caight me i am scum

Why did the above post even have to exist and why did it take you multiple pages to post the below:

geraint had just posted so i didnt have to scroll up to look at the playerlist i just voted him

Why not just respond to 21 with this originally?

@Red I need to see something from you, Red, which doesn't ping me as scum.

like what

Explaining your scum reads, pushing your scum reads, doing things that help you acquire scum reads or clarifying how your current play is helping you to acquire scum reads.

herta tell me who to vote

Exactly like I said earlier: I'm not reading into it a ton yet and I can't help but feel like this is a little bit of a deflection from the larger body of what herta just said. I feel like herta basically tossed you the ball with 69 and you took the ball and booted it onto the roof of the schoolhouse with 70. I think herta was implying that you may be Town here and voting geraintm subconsciously out of frustration or vindication which I can buy, I can also argue though based on herta's same words that you have been given precedent to believe geraintm is a safe and/or easy wagon for you to push as scum. FMPOV 19 is a post I had to think about for a while when I first read it whereas if I were scum I would want to slap a vote on a slot posting like that ASAP if I felt there would never be any consequences for doing so.

[Frogsterking]

@

bianco

@

JacksonVirgo

can you give me second opinions on the BBT and Clone interaction?

#nullwars

[Frogsterking]

Biancospino is my only Town read so far (hi bianco!),

[Frogsterking]

@

bianco

@

JacksonVirgo

can you give me second opinions on the BBT and Clone interaction?

I'm conflicted actually. I can see Clone as either alignment just slightly panicking after being voted and just slapping something toghether to disempasse, if this is actually his first game as it seems. If that's not the case, I'd say that's fishier.

@BBT didn't actually do much, but I'm interested on whether their distaste for ceph's defense of clone comes from the fact they sus clone themselves, or from the fact they dislike ceph's arguments specifically

I'm also going to sleep btw, so if you need to ask anything else you'll probably have to wait 'till morning

Okay that's

I'll get my "homework" questions for you out tonight while I solve and compile them into one post for you to answer tomorrow morning. I know I can be demanding but it's a team guessing game and two pairs of eyes are

a lot

better than one.


PEdit:

@ceph, on #91. I don't think 33 is related to clone, however Crescent response to your response was (

The entire argument is "posting a deflecting joke immediately after being voted for, then peacing out of the game for a long time, is scum AI. I wish to see more posts from him." This is pretty cut and dry

) so I'm confused here, there must have been some miscommunication along the way.

If you're going to be on for a while after all I can hurry up and try to get you the rest of my "homework" questions now?

[Frogsterking]

I'll be up for a little while still, yes

First, can you clarify what/why/how you and Cephrir were just communicating about? It looked like you were both holograms who glitched out for a second and it's a little creepy ngl.

[Frogsterking]

Lol what.
I just though much of the quote labyrinth didn't really make sense, and tried to ask ceph to help me make sense of it. And apparently it just didn't so there's that.

Btw, I'm still unsatisfied on something. @Crescent responding as she did to the response to 33 is just out of parse.

This answer makes no sense at all and I don't see what Crescent has to do with anything. You're welcome to try again at explaining what you and Cephrir were on about last page, those kinds of interactions are a huge red flag for me and I would feel better about my Townread on you if you can help me understand how that discussion was organic.

I'm going to go over my reads tonight and I'll try to expedite the process so you get a chance to answer my questions before I go to bed. I won't hold it against you if you end up getting back to me tomorrow morning.

i dont have any scum reads at this time, i'll let y'all know if this changes

Okay, I'm not convinced yet that I'm onto anything worthwhile here wrt my scum read on you and I can wait for you to get your reads:

UNVOTE: redFF
VOTE: JacksonVirgo

From what I recall of town!JacksonVirgo it feels like they would have--at the very least--checked in by now. I'm getting suspicious that they're strategically lurking out the opening of the game.

[Frogsterking]

Good night, biancospino, and thank you for writing 111. I should have my questions up by tomorrow morning.

All I really said was post 27 townpinged me because it feels like something scum generally doesn't do early, but that feeling is diminished a bit if there's scum among people in the small affected radius.

I thought you were pretty clear, FWIW, that analysis was the main reason I Town leaned you. Have you been able to discern anything about Kowabunga or redFF's alignment?

[Frogsterking]

Clone, are you still online?

[Frogsterking]

124 is a lot..

[Frogsterking]

@

bianco

@

geraintm

@

Elements

Can I get your professional assessment on Clone?

#slimshady

[Frogsterking]

Clone, can you self-meta yourself a little bit please?

[Frogsterking]

I have a couple more questions, I think that's a good place to start though.

[Frogsterking]

self-meta?

Yeah, like your past experience playing mafia, a rough description of how your play changes between alignments and what kinds of things you look for when deciding whether or not to trust another player.

I will ask you a couple more specific questions about your reads in this game too, I just feel like I need to better understand what you're about first.

[Frogsterking]

@135

That's super cool, SC2 Mafia is what introduced me to mafia back in high school. I liked it, found EM online and over time probably clocked around ~5,000 hours playing on that website. So your style here actually makes total sense to me now that you told me that. Unless there's anything you want to add here for this game about your self-meta then I'd rather continue this discussion postgame if you don't mind, I have some other questions about your reads in this game.

#1

I understand that players focus on different things, I'm curious though why you didn't post any thoughts on Kowahbunga, geraintm and Elements. I think Elements and Kowahbunga have been pretty active and while geraintm has only made two posts, IMO they are both interesting posts to consider. Did you leave those three players out of your analysis in 124 for a reason? If not, can you post an assessment on those three?

#2

Can you backtrace (like show me the previous points in time) where you

weren't

Town reading redFF? I think the easiest way to show this is to point out specific posts in reverse chronological order which caused your read on redFF to change.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: clone

@

redFF

i dont have any scum reads at this time, i'll let y'all know if this changes

You promised us

What rubbed you the wrong way wrt Clone?

@

BBT

Last time we were both Town I recall you scum reading me by now. Should I be getting concerned that you aren't getting concerned??

@

Kowahbunga

I meant to ask you a question earlier though I probably forgot. I was wondering if you think it's fair for me to draw analogies between your Andante read in the Mini Normal you just completed and your Cephrir read in this one?

I recall BBT looking like this day 1 in the last game I played with him. He was town in that game, but I've never seen him play as scum. There isn't much to say.

I played scum with him a few months ago in a Mini Normal and he did really well. Someone got onto him D1 and he survived to D2 while helping to set us up for endgame. I never understood what it was that the Town sleuth scum read BBT for on D1. I may be too biased and it's easier for you to see:

viewtopic.php?t=89984&user_select%5B%5D=23899

I guess I'm leaning Town on BBT right now. I don't have a lot to say yet either. I guess you and BBT are the top two advocates and/or earliest two advocates for Clone!scum, so if that goes through and flips scum then I +Town you both. I need a response (or definitive lack of response) to 137 before I decide whether or not to resign my vote to the Clone wagon.

[Frogsterking]

Also, it's not like they've been doing this the whole game. They are mostly referring to scum as scum. Except in this long post.

Yes and 124 looks like multiple posts which were written independently and later edited together.

[Frogsterking]

My Kowahbunga read can be condensed into a single word:

Spoiler: spoilered to avoid biasing Crescent before they post their own read

Townahbunga

[Frogsterking]

Oh and to further the point about #177 and #178, perspective slips don't really exist when it comes to nouns and pronouns. I once saw a town throw a game at lylo because someone accidentally referred to the scum team as "we" and was voted off strictly for that.

Couldn't care less that there's four interchangeable terms for not-town and he decided to use the one that people generally haven't been using this game so far.

It actually kind of bugs me a bit that FK didn't call this out because I believe he's a player that should know how meaningless the argument was.

It just pings me. Cool with your input on it and happy if it doesn't ping others. Just sticks out to me because subconscious slips are a thing. They've happened before, they'll happen again. Just because you can mention one game where it was wrong to follow this logic, doesn't mean all games and situations will always be just like that.

Your last bit means more to me than your opinion on my opinions though. You thinking Frog is off for not calling out something you think he should. Do you think Frog is trying to buddy me then?

It makes me more curious as to why he says he town reads you because so far I don't see it. He effectively parlayed your post into shading the already oft-shaded #124 without commenting on the argument it was making. I find that kind of argument you made is much better at getting town voted off than it is scum since town is generally more loose with their speech than scum is.

BBT has also said it, but I don't believe he's given any explanation either.

Basically, I want an explanation of said town read because the comparison he was making between you this game and last game doesn't hold at all.

It's based on feelings and intuition. It's possible I'm underestimating Kowahbunga and I became manipulated by them without my realizing. If you can show me how Kowahbunga manipulated me into flipping my read on him then I will reevaluate.

[Frogsterking]

i think you're reading too much into things

This is a scum mindset.

VOTE: Cephir

Frog's issues with my post could also be deemed "reading too much into things" but you agree enough with him to vote me for the same reason. Yet you want to tell someone else they're reading too much into things? This is made even more interesting that you find it okay to agree with Frog's reach but don't like someone that you claim is reaching, reaching against Frog.

i don't really get the focus on kow's vote tbh...

also don't think andante's response to it was scum indicative rather than just andante indicative though

Regarding Kow, my thoughts...

1. Why does town need to plan what they are going to do for RVS in the pregame?

2.

That’s entirely fair
I just had the idea in pregame so I figured I’d vocalize it immediately.

VOTE: andante

hi everyone

Yeah, actually, what specifically makes you park your rvs vote on me... could pick gamer, haschel, gamma, or penguin
yet you opted to join the vote on me. Please share why

I decided pre-game I would vote the first person voted, I'm not sorry it was you.

I think the justification of his RVS vote being "i decided pre-game" could have easily just been stolen from Gamma saying that she decided pregame to ask everyone to post a reads list. sort of "i'm getting pushed on my RVS vote, how do I explain it, i'll just say what Gamma said..."This is a bit of a reach but it did seem weird to me and worth pointing out.

Does this mean you also scum read Gamma for planning pregame or just me for doing it?

i feel like there are an immense amount of similarities between Kow's play in either game. I didn't bother to write them up earlier. I was curious if I could find anything now or I just imagined it, so I went back and within a few seconds I saw the above quote from the other game. You can see an example of just one way Kow is being consistent in the methods that he scum hunts from the above. I associate this same tell, which Kow is pointing out in two different games, with a user here named FrozenAngel. It's a legitimate way of scumhunting. If Kow is scum then they're doing a better job replicating Town than they need to IMO.

I'm not completely sold on Kow being Town, I have an entire tinfoil team solve which includes Kow, it's just my tinfoil team solve though. If there is evidence in the thread that I got tricked or emotionally manipulated by Kow then that's one thing. Barring that, my intuition is that Kow is Town, and I trust my intuition...to an extent.

[Frogsterking]

I'm thinking.

[Frogsterking]

@

Crescent

Okay. I have some concrete thoughts on what you said about Kowah.

Kowah takes the initiative against Cephrir in the 4 post exchange which is important IMO. That means that Kowah wasn't forced into the 1v1 and chose to create it of their own volition. Cephrir was dissing you (Crescent) by saying that you are reading too much into things; in other words the negative post which caused Kowah to FoS Cephrir

wasn't

addressed to him, it was addressed to

you

. I think it's obvious that Kowah has no agenda to pocket you (right?? idk) so now already you have to ask yourself whether the motivations of the hypothetical scum!Kowah you are seeing can even hold up in practice, as if you aren't going to defend Kowah later, what does Kowah have to gain in interjecting on your behalf?

Overall, Kowahbunga isn't being reactive below, they are being proactive because Cephrir had not targeted Kowahbunga at all up to this point AFAIK:

i think you're reading too much into things

This is a scum mindset.

VOTE: Cephir

Frog's issues with my post could also be deemed "reading too much into things" but you agree enough with him to vote me for the same reason. Yet you want to tell someone else they're reading too much into things? This is made even more interesting that you find it okay to agree with Frog's reach but don't like someone that you claim is reaching, reaching against Frog.

-crescent's post delves multiple layers deep into a post that's literally just a joke
-frog explicitly says he's not reading that much into it,

and i'm not either

- just happy with that spot for my vote on page 2, although this reaction certainly doesn't make me feel worse about it

You're not reading that much into it, but enough to put a vote for it? This is too careless to be a town POV.

@bianco I don't think it's disingenuous, he is new and probably doesn't know that

I know that I feel your posts are not a town POV. At this stage of the game that will be all I have to play with.

I played mafia off and on starting in 2008. I've played consistently since 2014. There's nothing new about me other than this account or my way of playing.

@bianco I don't think it's disingenuous, he is new and probably doesn't know that

I know that I feel your posts are not a town POV. At this stage of the game that will be all I have to play with.

I played mafia off and on starting in 2008. I've played consistently since 2014. There's nothing new about me other than this account or my way of playing.

and you've never seen someone throw a vote around on minimal basis on page 2?????

My issue is not with the vote being minimal or not. My issue is that you used the same reason to vote for me as you used to discredit someone else's opinion.

You told that someone they're "reading too much into something" which is 100% a scum POV thing to say because any one that is town here should be reading everything with a fine tooth comb. Whether it was on page 2 or 200 doesn't matter.

Yeah I've seen scum write similar things too, everything Kow writes makes me paranoid...really paranoid...I don't scum that though I guess because it's almost always Town which is making me feel really paranoid rather than scum.

There are a few moments which break from the tradition of where a hypothetical scum!Kow would normally take things, and those moments make me optimistic about Kowah's alignment:

"There's nothing new about me other than this account

or my way of playing

."

I think that not all scum players include the bolded here and my feeling is that most scum players don't want to throw away the newbie card when handed to them in the first place. I feel like Kowah is asking for trouble a little bit in a way I don't think they do as scum.

[Frogsterking]

Wtf

[Frogsterking]

IDK. Maybe don't trust Kowahbunga after all.

[Frogsterking]

Do I have to accept being wrong about Clone AND Kowahbunga?

[Frogsterking]

I feel like I got really stumped in this game all of a sudden.

[Frogsterking]

I trust FK to be good at noticing stuff, so I can see the fact he put forth a towncase that would stop working after noticing 43 to be a deliberate trap, especially since the "proactive" post from Kow was 45, near on the same page

With regards to "I trust FK to be good at noticing stuff", this isn't even close to how people work lol. Being perceptive is related to creativity (like imagination) and being detail-oriented is related to conscientiousness (like diligence.) Those two constructs are negatively correlated with each other so the opposite of what you're saying is actually true: if your experience with me is that I'm perceptive then you can predict in a vacuum (knowing nothing else about me) that I'm marginally more likely to overlook obvious things through carelessness.

Posting some bullshit with some convoluted plan attached to it is probably something I would do as scum, sure. In my defense I guess I'll point out that 231 isn't some random bullshit I spit out, there was some time and thought I completely wasted on it first, and I think that shows in that it would have been a fine post had I not completely excluded 43 existence.

I feel like I got really stumped in this game all of a sudden.

You ninja'd me, but that is really the reason I don't know what to think of you anymore. Like, I want to TR you, but for some reason I'm being paranoid you're lying there

Getting stumped indicates a lack of TMI so if you believe that I'm telling the truth about being stumped then that should not be something which is causing you paranoia. Normally someone would experience paranoia over being unsure whether or not I am actually stumped, for example.

[Frogsterking]

Getting stumped indicates a lack of TMI so if you believe that I'm telling the truth about being stumped then that should not be something which is causing you paranoia. Normally someone would experience paranoia over being unsure whether or not I am actually stumped, for example.

Yes, but the thing is I don't 100% believe you.

And also yes, "perceptiveness" is apt, but eh, I can totally believe I don't know how people work.

That is just a common mistake I think that makes me irrationally angry. Sorry if I was too harsh. Your observation that I can percept elements within posts doesn't predict that I will be diligent about reading every post and in order to percieve something we have to pay attention to it.

I can provide receipts like it's my job:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1141981 ... influences

I think being overconfident and impulsive is why I missed 43 and those are flat-out different things than being perceptive.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: geraintm

I'm starting to believe the bitterness is either being played up for character or you are expressing openly how you feel as scum. Either way.

[Frogsterking]

@

bianco

@

geraintm

@

Elements

Can I get your professional assessment on Clone?

#slimshady

It is day 1, I've mot read any of their posts and I am 100% certain they are scum. I once found scum on day 1 and this is proof that I cam successfully divine someone's scum status now

If you want me to reevaluate you can start that process by giving me a better answer to this, geraintm.

[Frogsterking]

I feel like I got really stumped in this game all of a sudden.

I'm sorry, but it's D1 - if you're town how are you not stumped? We literally start the game stumped. Did you honestly feel like you had the whole game figured out?

Yeah

Wrt mean "with regard to" by the way

[Frogsterking]

Gera was at zero 12 hours ago and now he's at -2.

I think it can be a sign of Town wagoning correctly

[Frogsterking]

Gera was at zero 12 hours ago and now he's at -2.

I think it can be a sign of Town wagoning correctly

Wagons building this fast always concern me and people playing loose in general is the biggest reason I don't vote early.

Do you have receipts for this?

[Frogsterking]

Gera was at zero 12 hours ago and now he's at -2.

I think it can be a sign of Town wagoning correctly

Wagons building this fast always concern me and people playing loose in general is the biggest reason I don't vote early.

Do you have receipts for this?

Yep. 2272 was my first game here and I was leading the charge on voting MM near the end of day 1. The first one to jump off his train was also me, and I did that at -2.

Where I come from you rarely if ever see an unclaimed player hit -1. It's essentially considered taboo.

Okay, and did you unvote because you felt the wagon was building too quickly, and do you recall encouraging others to unvote for this reason?

[Frogsterking]

@crescent

I've come off back to back frustrating games, I wanted to amuse myself a bit in this one

Why are you only talking to Crescent?

[Frogsterking]

@

bianco

@

Crescent

@

geraintm

Would you three be open to flash wagoning Clone?

[Frogsterking]

@

bianco

@

Crescent

@

geraintm

Would you three be open to flash wagoning Clone?

I'd also like to know why you would or wouldn't be open to flash wagoning Clone.