Mini Normal 2299 | Postgame [Village win]

[Deltabreedy]

Hi folks

Working away at the moment so nothing big until later

VOTE: Emperor

You'll take part in RVS and you'll enjoy it or else

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Upgraded to serious vote

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Nothing. I want us out of RVS sharpish.

I'll encourage a wagon here to generate pressure and reads, or if another one forms then weee off I'll go there.

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UNVOTE: Emperor
VOTE: Red

Can we start doing -something- that isn't game mechanic speculation? I don't see it as being productive and I feel like even at this point, with this many players - we're real far behind where we should be in terms of gamestate. We're miles from being out of RVS so if we can all go ahead and start doing stuff, super

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UNVOTE: Red
VOTE: Theta

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There's the game-advancement.

Kinda weird how your vote is solely on me for a naked vote, but you haven't called out Hu Tao or Dr Drew on the same page.

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So you're voting me for not advancing the game, even though it's a wagon that pushes us out of RVS

But not voting Hu Tao, for an RVS vote on page 6?

The logic there doesn't check out

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Advancing the game itself is NAI, but voting someone for advancing the game over someone who isn't is logically inconsistent.

When should we push the game out of RVS, Theta? Page 10? 48 hours from now?

Help me out - I'm still wildly unclear on how this works.

My vote stays here for now, and others should join it.

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There's the game-advancement.

Kinda weird how your vote is solely on me for a naked vote, but you haven't called out Hu Tao or Dr Drew on the same page.

What was my naked vote? If you're talking about the alianna vote it was a meme vote which I unvoted, which I thought was obvious.

Yeah, they didn't call you out on it. A meme vote on page 6 doesn't push us out of RVS at all, but Theta instead went for an OMGUS vote on me rather than holding to account 2 people who didn't do something on that page to help push us out.

Given that they themselves said that they want to get out of RVS so that they can develop reads, it seems to be a contradiction that they'll go after someone trying to advance the gamestate over someone who on the same page didn't advance it.

I'd encourage more votes on Theta at present.

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Like at this point I'm into the Theta wagon because that's a possible associative right here. Kind of a weird blunt chainsaw defense.

Can you expand on this for me? I don't see who the associative/defense is with.

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So at 3 IRL days into Day 1, you were fine with RVS votes? Still defending it almost halfway into D1?

I'm pretty okay with a Theta lim D1 to be honest.

This game feels absurdly slow compared to my previous experience in newbie games - I can scarcely believe we're halfway through D1 and there seems to be a feeling that we're still in RVS.

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Well that's obtuse and unhelpful

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Theta pings me a bit, but like
I probably am giving Delta a bit of a pass since I am not familiar with them at all, that and I have some noob vibes from them.

Was it just him coming after you?

I don't like the open implication of noob vibes here. It kind of feels like it's something that could be used in days to come to discredit me and any arguments I make, which I find quite... off.

Would appreciate you recanting this statement tbh.

Ninja'd: I still think Theta is the one we should take off the board today tbh.

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What on earth is this sudden Mew wagon.

Can someone clear that up for me? All I really see is two players having a spat rather than anything that indicates one of them is pushing in bad faith.

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If I ask why I'm getting your vote today can I expect a reason or will it be a meme like most of the rest of the thread?

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@FL, that is

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Really hung up on that, are we?

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Firstly, what on earth was that Mew wagon - can someone explain that for me?

I don't recall there being much anti-Mew sentiment so for them to just get so suddenly offed was pretty awful. I'd wager good money that scum is on the wagon there.

Second - I think doing what Flavour suggested is daft. I don't buy it.

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What on earth are you jabbering on about?

Is this really your solve?

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Can you lay out point by point why I'm scummy? I'm keen on seeing the logic behind it.

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I'm town and I happen to think your claim is bollocks and frankly I think it's more likely to be a PR-hunting exercise than anything else.

Your explanation would hold up if I was under any real pressure yesterday but I wasn't? By trying to paint me as scummy and coming out with poor theorycrafting after a claim which is unsubstantiated and a pretty quirky claim at that, even the three people you point at for voting me including yourself never really campaigned that hard for my lim when they were on my wagon, from memory.

Rather than asking everyone to go through some pointless exercise - why don't you just say who visited and we lim between them for what will at worst be a 50/50. You said you have names.

Ninja'd: why are we playing Flavour's game here? Like I just don't see why you're blindly following it - if they clicked their fingers and ask would you leap off a cliff too?

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The Mew wagon developed stupid quick with people just hopping on with what felt like very little progression - do you not agree?

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They didn't say the names, but if they are being honest and they are what they say they are - they must have the name of a scum player in their inbox.

It's categorically anti-town gameplay not to share the results, regardless of their alignment.

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VOTE: FlavourLeaf

I'm going to be very entertained when this smug attitude across people leads to a town flip and everyone rounding on FL.

This is a bad faith push on me, why would FL, having knowledge on results and surely having a kill-visiting name in their grasp advocate hard for a lim outside of that? They've essentially forced a semi-massclaim, painted targets for scum to NK tonight and now they're pushing me for... What exactly?

All I've done is question the claim, which is a wildly outlandish claim, and seemingly overnight there's a consensus being formed - I'm a bit aggrieved that rather than a player base of people looking to question claims, I get the sense that it's a bit of a mob instead.

[Deltabreedy]

I have made zero case on anyone but Delta

Plus your entire spiel regarding me has been that I'm obvscum. You're encouraging others to vote me, IE advocating for my lim and to claim otherwise is misleading at best, an outright lie at worst.

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I also get the feeling that by encouraging others whilst simultaneously talking about the need for patience, you're setting up a scenario where you can plausibly get away with saying 'well I was never on the wagon and never said we should vote for Delta, I just didn't get in the way of it' or something to distance yourself from the flip, but it all comes from you referring to me as obvscum in what is an incredibly reductive way to engage with my very real concerns about your claim.

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Delta not gonna go through. I’m voting them still but i think they’re lean town.

Go ahead and vote Mew, Theta. Join the dark side

This is shown as something you've done previously, even openly admitting that you're voting for a townread whilst encouraging others to vote elsewhere.

It's all presented in a familiar, friendly tone but there's malice in these posts. FL is a malevolent actor in this game and I encourage more people to look through the bullshit rodeo they're leading everyone on at the moment.

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Ooh good counter

Anymore zingers you got there?

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And yet you're coming out with heinously flawed logic in saying I'm a great vote, with nowt to back it up and you say you have a guilty, yet you still haven't clearly indicated who it is.

Given that you're pushing in bad faith, relishing in this control you have over town whilst also allowing over a quarter of our time to elapse without all the information, I'm disinclined to believe your claim so yeah, I think you're scum and I think you're trying to out the PR's.

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No, you have nothing.

This isn't projection, it's calling out your shit and you're sat there thinking you can funny your way away from it.

The annoying thing is you're probably right - I don't have faith in the rest of the playerbase that it won't work.

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At what point did I go from a 'great vote' to town?

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Intent to hammer in around 30 mins.

I would honestly rather FL be Mafia than believe that they were just fucking with me, cause honestly that's just a bellend thing to do. But I'm thinking that maybe I was focused on the person not the game at that point and I got a bit red misty.

Someone tell me why I shouldn't hammer.

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VOTE: Enchant

Hammer McSlammer

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Uh

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You were on the Enchant wagon, and the NK was pretty predictable post-flip. Nothing has really been a drastic overturn of events, why have you not produced the readslist you promised us?

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VOTE: Theta

The vibes are off, this prewritten post/solve looks to me like scum running damage control and trying to get ahead of the narrative, and I've scumread them all game.

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Awh jeezy peeps what is this

The wagon on me is bad, I don't think anyone has even tried to justify a vote on me.

Theta's vote was an OMGUS sourced from me questioning them and holding them to account with their stated overnight actions (which I still don't think they've done btw).

My play is apparently 'just off', and there's some wacky tinfoil shite about me bussing Enchant?
I don't think anyone else has really justified.

Idk this wagon has developed so fast and so easily that it's damn near impossible not to have scum on it - and I think that's Theta.

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They said they were going to do a readslist but instead have come out with this tinfoil theory that somehow ended with the softest vote on me going.

I'm currently on a train with naff internet but I'll lay out a case when I get home in around 2-ish hours

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I don't like this push on Delta, I also don't like how when I offered an Aliana wagon to Theta(you they kept saying they feel is a traitor) they just changed course.

I think the lim should be between Alianna and Theta

This is something I plan on including in my case on Theta.

Scumreads Alianna, that's the solve then...

Votes me? For like really no reasons? The bussing and the vibes are entirely subjective. It's just not something that would come from a Theta that is pushing in good faith, and for it to develop so fast and so easily with no justification casts real shade on those who also joined in.

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I'm still a while away - you may as well drop your thoughts now. My Theta case doesn't include much in the way of associatives when I read back at their ISO so unless it directly involves them or I you can probably speak without colouring the case.

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Apologies for flaking last night - long day, 19 hours or so and rather than booting up a computer for tapping out a case, I collapsed into bed and slept.

My bad.

The above changes things though, so for now - I'll UNVOTE: Theta

Alianna, Hu Tao and RedFF all hopped on with scant justification - It went from 0-60 real quick with no justifications in the moment. I'd wager at least one scum in there, with how quickly and opportunistic the votes were.

@Red - why did you vote someone to E-2, and then recant after E-1?

This late into the game, naked votes and Bandwagoning doesn't feel town-motivated to me, and I think it developed too fast for scum to control the narrative - the optics of a town!me speedlim would look horrendous on those who facilitated it.

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I'm keen on understanding this as well. It's come through the game as a sort of implicit assumption but I've never seen it actually justified.

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*even if there's a traitor

I mean, even you don't believe that it's confirmed?

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Bleh, I woke up recently. My bad, I'll engage my brain soon.

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I don't trust Red's claim.

Here's why:

Knowing what we know now, #75 reads more like Scum!RedFF pushing away from traitor discussion. At the time justifiably so, so I think it went under the radar a bit - but in retrospect and aligning with the rest of their play it kind of makes sense.

Votes on Enchant and Theta in #84 and #117 have minimal justification but provide a degree of 'activity' without actually including any genuine scumhunting. This is then justified when FL challenges it in #154 where from there it does turn defensive. This gets called out but again their lack of activity after this means that they go pretty un-noticed.

In #222 there is another odd interaction with FL, wherein the prior interaction had shown FL to be doing some digging around Red's defensive posturing, but I think Red feigns ignorance in response to Flavour's admittedly quite coded posting. It reads to me as more of a vibe check - 'Who are you leaning scum on?' here =

Do you think I am scum?

Then there is effectively a 4 day period of inactivity. A few prod dodges that don't advance the game whilst ill - I don't count being ill as AI, of course - but returning to the game saying 'I got really sick over the weekend' when the inactivity was from Tues 23rd (#222) to Thurs 25th (#334 doesn't check out at all. Again, I feel this went relatively un-noticed. Lurking into the background has worked for Red and it's only really after the opportunistic vote on me and then the 3rd prod that I woke up and saw it.

#384 continues this trend of non-justified wagonpushing. At this point they're on Theta's wagon - and taking the assumption that Theta is town, Red would be keen on pushing this in bad faith, knowing who scum are. Being fine with all three wagons without actually having any reasoning behind them, not even spoken about vibes is inherently scummy to me - it might just be a playstyle thing but it also fits in with the rest of the gameplay so far.

Voting Mewtaph (Confirmed town by way of death) to E-1 without justification in #416 (coming after Mewtaph has called out RedFF for lurking in #3600 feels like Lurk!Scum looking for an easy way to A) Push a mislim and B) Push someone who suspects them out. By being so distant and in the background - from memory no-body connected this dot D2.

The justification for the Mew wagon from Red comes in D2, but again with nothing of substance to back it up. #478 reads as an attempt to move past it and move past any kind of VCA - and to be honest for me it worked. I didn't even clock thinking about it until now. By being aware of who scum is - Red can play along quite easily with FL's claim - which of course by way of death we know to be true. #479 curries favour with FL who Scum!Red would know to be powerful town and justifies the actions subsequently.

The big issue I have with this is the JK claim.

None of Red's actions feel like they have the goal of advancing the gamestate, or even finding scum. I don't read any willingness to find and lim scum from any of their posts - there's barely-existent questioning, a sense of complete apathy and to be honest if it wasn't for the claim, on a re-read I would have them absolutely locked as scum. Naked votes, opportunistic chances to put people at E-1 being taken - I just don't read Red's ISO or the associatives with Enchant and see anything other than scum.

The existance of the JK-enabler role is the literal only thing that slices up the argument and I'm having a real hard time getting past it.

Someone tell me I'm being an idiot here, but I'm really struggling with this one.

--

I also take issue with Alianna and Hu Tao for some of the same reasons, but I want players to audit my thought process above first.

Ninja'd by 4+ posts - will respond in new post.

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@Hu Tao:
Why aren't you developing a case on Emperor or anything? I feel like you've just chosen them at will - in the same way you voted for me with no reasoning, you've now also voted Emperor. Why?

Also, why do you think Alianna is town?

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I dont think they have a case on Emp - and it's kind of weird that it's 'I suggest going elsewhere' over 'I suggest going for Emp, here's why:'

@Hu Tao - manage my expectations on this. When will you get back to us? I'm around until 10pm UTC+1 (UK Time) tonight and for context, I'm feeling a hammer but I want to explore this.

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.

Quoting for notification.

Keen on understanding:
1- Your case on Emperor
2- Why you think Alianna is town

Consider this an elongated declaration of intent to hammer.

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If I think their answer & claim comes more from a scum-aligned mindset, I will hammer today. I'm not rushing, but if I see a chance to take scum off the board I will do

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I'll be hammering Hu Tao at around noon UK time. That's 8 hours from now.

Hopefully they turn up and say something first, but at that point I'll have had declared intent for just shy of 24 hours.

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7 years working nights leading to a munted sleep cycle, the couple upstairs 'making love' and a police raid at the old folks home opposite.

Buzz in when you hear an answer you like.

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7 years working nights leading to a munted sleep cycle, the couple upstairs 'making love' and a police raid at the old folks home opposite.

Buzz in when you hear an answer you like.

I am very intrigued about the police raid at the old folks home.

I haven't popped my head out to ask, unfortunately.

Anyway yeah I want a claim from Hu Tao tbh, I cba with someone softing and expecting us all to be like 'oh sound yeah nah go for it'.

Like I say - 8 hours or so.

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I'd say they now HAVE to.

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VOTE: Hu Tao

Hammer.

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More for my benefit than anything else:

So with the assumption being that neither Theta nor I are groupscum, we're limming in a pool of 5 with 2 Mafiosos - within which there is one un-counterclaimed tracker.

So our pool today then is 4 people:
- Doctor Drew
- Alianna
- Bristep
- Emperor

Within which we have mathematically a 50% chance of hitting mafioso and extending the days we have, a 25% chance of hitting the groupscum and winning the game today.

My gut was originally to PoE out Bristep because they were first on the wagon, but their reasoning was pretty weak and their ISO is disappointingly minimal. Almost nothing to go off of.
Alianna and Drew were off the wagon - Alianna in particular making reference to wanting to see a claim but not really doing much for the wagon felt a bit odd, but the rebuttal of my RedFF pontificating felt kinda townie? Can someone go over the Alianna scumreading because it's happened a few times as I recall.

Drew being keen on Alianna over Hu Tao, whilst still being okay with Hu Tao getting the axe doesn't feel like a natural development. They've barely mentioned Hu Tao over the course of the game, apart from to try and convince Theta to hop off the wagon to Alianna here: #834.

This interaction doesn't feel like Scum to Scum (going off the idea that Theta knows who scum are but can't talk to them), and to be honest it feels a bit like Doctor Drew looking to power up a CW to Hu Tao whilst apparently being okay with their lim. To me this reads as scum setting themselves up for being on the Hu Tao wagon in spirit.

I can't read Emperor, which I really don't like.

For now,
VOTE: Doctor Drew

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Yeah nah Bri for me I think that Flippy's play reads as disengagement I guess? But that's not even AI so I hate that I can't get a grasp on them.

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UNVOTE: Doctor Drew

Unvoting until after these all come through and re-evaluating.

Villager here.

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@Mod:

V/LA for 30-ish hours from now.

Do we still have any claims outstanding? Don't think we've seen a flippy one.

@Alianna & Drew

To be honest I don't know what to make of the roles this game. I can't say it's something to rule out and I don't think a same-team watcher/watcher-enabler would count as bastard.

That said, there's been a trend for scum enablers to town PRs so it would be a bit of a stretch to suggest a scum watcher, in my opinion.

Again, we're missing claims so I feel pretty out of my depth when it comes to the massclaim.

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That'd be appreciated.

I'll try and hop on whilst on my way to and fro tomorrow but no guarantees I'm afraid.

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I still don't think that traitor is specifically within Theta and I - it's not mechanically confirmed is it?

I've disagreed with Theta a lot this game but I think that might be more playstyle than substance.

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I think Theta might be onto something, in honesty. I've read it and it fits (sorta) with the conclusions I've started reaching. I think I'd prefer an Aliana Lim today, would that work with you Theta?

I think that Theta is town, and I think that the narrative push that one of us was traitor was an attempt to draw town towards limming between us (probably me, as I had reached L-1 previously so there was a residual appetite for it there).

I'll have to re-read but I'm confident that Aliana was a major proponent of that. I'll confirm when I re-read in an hour and a half or so, but my gut tells me that that is where we should go today.

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I just tested it and my phone autocorrected it

Vote: My Phone

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@Theta

Alianna lim?

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Not the time to be witholding your theories

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I could do Doc today. I'm getting vibes from either tbh

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Today limpool for me looks like:

Doc/Alianna (preference on this changes every minute. Not helpful, I know)
Flippy
Theta
Me

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Im going to sleep on it and have a re-read over tomorrow.

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Why would you vote for Emperor over Doc, out of interest?

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The fact that there's no hammer suggests to me that Theta isn't scum. I know I'm not and the same logic that clears Theta also clears myself.

My issue is figuring out if Emperor is a traitor. I don't like that both Alianna and Drew are doing the same things. Is there a world in which Alianna and Drew are the traitor & groupscum?

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This pings me:

only 2 wolves hmm

must be a 3rd party then as well

Nah, he probably just slipped that it's a traitor game.

Alianna dropped this early on and I'm more inclined to believe that Theta is town over Alianna.

The thing is, is this Alianna earmarking themselves as traitor to groupscum (who wouldn't know that she's traitor unless being told, AFAIK).

VOTE: Doctor Drew

MURDERER!

I am bad motherfucker

Is this Drew signalling that THEY are traitor to groupscum Alianna?

--

Theta, why are you planning on following my decision?

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So if Emperor is confirmed scum, and neither Theta nor I are scum, then by that logic Drew is scum as well, right?

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We have to hit scum today tbh, otherwise we' re just going to be at a 50/50 between Alianna and Drew again, and thats going with the assumption that Emperor is in fact the traitor.

--

Ninja'd: So we lim Emperor, who is the most likely kill overnight Alianna?

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I honestly might just toss a coin - it could be either of Alianna and Drew

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Alianna what are your thoughts on Drew

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You've got a lot of time for responding - manage our expectations. When will we have your case?

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I’d rather we didn’t hammer hastily. I don’t really have time to make my case right now.

In reference to this. Today? Overnight? Tomorrow?

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Part of me wants to wait for Alianna

Part of me thinks that a 'case' coming from nowhere 2 days since daybreak just as the talking in-game reaches a crescendo feels a bit... eh, especially given that the Emperor wagon has stalled at E-1

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Emperor - out of Alianna and Drew where's your head at?

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Scum can have the lazy modifier

However Theta and I were cleared of being traitors since we didn't have any kind of informed modifier, as far as my understanding goes?

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Emperor what is happening here - you've seen both me and Theta several times say that it's between Alianna and Drew

Where is this defeatism coming from

Is this some misguided AtE?

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N1 - Doctor Drew (targeted by Emperor flippyNips and Flavor Leaf)
N2 - Flavor Leaf (targeted by no one - kill was made by the ninja)

Alianna/DD - if Emperor is lying about what they did, what do you think their role is?

Because you allege that they targetted DD, but the assumption is that they're lying about being a tracker.

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@Drew

At what point did you go from Alianna being a traitor to Theta!Traitor?

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@Emperor

Whats with the Appeal to Emotion off the back of Theta and I -not- wanting to vote you?

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My head says Emperor
My guy says Alianna

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Autocorrect can do one

My gut says Alianna

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I just don't get why, with no votes being aimed at them, Emperor would go on a whole AtE pathway if they were town.

@Alianna - in your night actions you yourself said in [url'viewtopic.php?p=13776355#p13776355']#959[/url] that Emperor visited Drew N1.

On the assumption that they're lying, what do you think they are?

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Theta can you quote for me the traitor crumbs?

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Quote those for me too please - I don't want to have to go searching for your argument.

Ninja'd:

So in this scenario for you Aliana, Theta is traitor and Emperor is Groupscum?

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I simultaneously love and hate being given the hammer at the death.

I actually did a vote for Emperor earlier which was interrupted by a P-edit.

Nothing is moving me from that at present. The AtE over anything else today and then Theta explaining it away for them just swayed it for me. Had yous left it I may well have simply voted for Aliana but it all just stinks. I've spent some time now trying to unwrap this thread ball of claims and results and actions and I think it's more likely for Emp to be scum than not.

I haven't quite figured out the claims. Does a lazy scum tracker make sense?

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It comes down to if a Scum Tracker with a Lazy modifier is possible.

I'm struggling to conceptualize what that would look like - when and how the lazy modifier would kick in.

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I'm having to convince myself it's Aliana. Emperor makes sense.

Again I hate being the one to cast the deciding vote of the game. I just don't see how town!Emperor behaves like that right at the death.

- are we -positive- there is no third parties like a fool/joker/'get myself limmed' character?

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VOTE: Emperor

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Well, cool.

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That's not confusing

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Imagine the look on your faces if it was me

So uh, Flippy then Drew?

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I was really hoping to be able to settle into sleep after this but the adrenaline's pretty firmly in my system now

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Huh, neat.

VOTE: Dr Drew

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Ggs

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Yeah thanks Bianco!

I had fun with this. Not my usual, but I'd do it again!

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I do genuinely think that AtE at the end was what threw me off completely - would have been funny to hit 3p Lim or lose, 100% you'd have killed off whichever of Drewliana was left and Theta and I would have been sat there like 'Guh?'

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Agreed.

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Neat