Mini Normal 2305 | GAME OVER

[OopsieDaisy]

first

[OopsieDaisy]

Curse you Daisy!

umm casting curses on people is kinda sus

VOTE: Elements

[OopsieDaisy]

Are you town this game?

Of course

[OopsieDaisy]

Are you town this game?

Of course

Great, you can be town

Yea you're town too actually, amazing post

UNVOTE: Elements

[OopsieDaisy]

Hey Elements wanna start a wagon on Tweet?

VOTE: Morning Tweet

[OopsieDaisy]

Hey! Going off my role this is going to be a lot of fun.

Same

Same

[OopsieDaisy]

Hey! Going off my role this is going to be a lot of fun.

Hey! Going off my role this is going to be a lot of fun.

Same

Hey! Going off my role this is going to be a lot of fun.

Same

Same

You guys got roles ?

Hell yea I got one of my faves

[OopsieDaisy]

and the game begins..

VOTE: OopsieDaisy

out of respect...

<3

[OopsieDaisy]

Hell yea I got one of my faves

one of

can't make it too easy to guess can i? :3

[OopsieDaisy]

tbf there's also a lot of players (6: elements, karma, gera, tweet, emperor & myself) from 2302 here so yea it looks like there's gonna be a lot of leakage over from previous games.

[OopsieDaisy]

tbf there's also a lot of players (6: elements, karma, gera, tweet, emperor & myself) from 2302 here so yea it looks like there's gonna be a lot of leakage over from previous games.

tbf, there's not much of 2302 to leak over into this game

LMAO true

hopefully it'll help make the reads today *slightly* more informed as i am an avid meta read enjoyer

[OopsieDaisy]

I really hope it helps you read me better

It already has helped me read you

(I read you as town rn for the record, I prefer your approach to the game this time around. Feels like there's much less of an agenda behind what you're saying and you're just enjoying yourself)

[OopsieDaisy]

I really hope it helps you read me better

It already has helped me read you

(I read you as town rn for the record, I prefer your approach to the game this time around. Feels like there's much less of an agenda behind what you're saying and you're just enjoying yourself)

Just had a look at that game and I can see why you enjoyed it!

yea it was a banger if you were a town player lol

[OopsieDaisy]

VOTE: geraintm

Tweet gang, move out!
[/V]geranium[/v]

Woww do you think we're just sheeple who will follow your every move? Smhh

I'll move my Tweet vote once I have a townping on the slot or a scumping on another slot.

What makes Gera the wagon you want to jump on now?

[OopsieDaisy]

Someone else voted there

Ok, but what about the three other people currently voting Sheep? Did you just not see the Tweet wagon as worth supporting anymore now that Tweet has entered the game and given us a couple of posts?

[OopsieDaisy]

I assume you mean voting tweet?
I was hoping they'd follow me

Oh yea I meant Tweet, got mixed up cause I said sheeple lol

[OopsieDaisy]

Dang I was hoping to get someting out of that line of questioning that could start to move us out of RVS but instead my townread on El just gets stronger..

[OopsieDaisy]

When I'm scum I really enjoy day 1
Geraintm isn't enjoying day 1
Therefore geraintm is scum

I disagree because Gera is a player who never enjoys Day 1, therefore making that reaction to a Day 1 NAI. Come back on the Tweet wagon El your friends are here <3

[OopsieDaisy]

Why do you want a tweet wagon?

I want one because it's an opportunity to form a big wagon early on that players are then forced to react to. Looking at who stays on the wagon/leaves the wagon, who ignores it completely, who opposes it. That's all info that can help the game out of RVS and into some actual analysis.

In terms of why Tweet specifically? Basically I wanted to push someone from 2302 cause I've got an idea of how they would react to things (which thus would mean a push on em yields more info) and I PoE'd it:

.Pressuring Gera won't do much cause he's not really playing the game for Day 1 anyways, so felt it was a less useful push.

.Pressuring Emperor wouldn't be too useful either because whilst they popped off on the vig shots last game, they were ultimately quite an inactive player so poking em with a wagon prolly wouldn't come to much.

.Pressuring Karma I could see just putting him straight on the defensive, and would I imagine lock him on to someone very early on in the game. Would be interesting cause then flips mean something but I'd rather Karma find someone more naturally since he usually has a different take on things than me.

.Pressuring you, well, I voted you at the start but then post 11 was what initially townpinged you to me, so I wanted to switch my vote and get a wagon going,

Thus, that left Tweet as my choice for the wagon.

[OopsieDaisy]

Obviously me now being upfront about these reasons does weaken the reasoning around the wagon since it prolly will lead to slightly less authentic reactions, but ay wcyd I like explaining things

[OopsieDaisy]

I thought when I townread you out the gate it meant I was scum?

Nahh, when you start asking me a bunch of vaguely related questions and then announce I'm town after I give my answers, that's when you're scum.

Coming straight out of the gates with it is different and something I like.

[OopsieDaisy]

Or you just know I'm town because your scum

That's always a possibility

[OopsieDaisy]

Dang I was hoping to get someting out of that line of questioning that could start to move us out of RVS but instead my townread on El just gets stronger..

Too many people have said not enough to get out of rvs yet
I have most posts than the rest of the players (excluding you) combined

Yeaa I know but I like not being in RVS, I managed to say something on Page 2 in 2302 that got a reaction big enough to create a big push and discussion.

It is what it is tho, I do wanna hear from other people.

[OopsieDaisy]

What did you say last game?

Just said someone's jokey post was a lil scummy and then they had an over-the-top reaction that played against their usual meta.

[OopsieDaisy]

What did you say last game?

Just said someone's jokey post was a lil scummy and then they had an over-the-top reaction that played against their usual meta.

Why don't you do that again?

I think it'd be a bit too obvious to get a genuine reaction out sadly

[OopsieDaisy]

I do indeed have a different play style than you I think.

ALSO, I only lock on someone when I (believe) I have caught scum. In our last game, Elements was pretty obvious, pretty fast. My protests were (mostly) ignored, luckily our vig did the heavy lifting. then the same with StD...both days, I was frustrated that people werent seeing (or ignored) what I did.

this game...is still to new...but thinking we are coming out of the RVS.


so I understand, Why do you want to pressure Tweet? Because you DONT know how they would react? Im confused.

Sure, but you can see why I would assume you'd be someone who would lock on early when my experience playing with you was just 2302, where both days you did lock on to someone you thought was scum and didn't let go.

I want to pressure Tweet because I'm most interested in how she would react to a push. I detailed in my PoE post why I felt pressuring the other 2302 players probably wasn't worth it from the outset, but that I wanted to push someone from 2302 because I'd have a better understanding of their meta compared to the other players who I've not played with before. Hence, Tweet stood out to me as the best player to push right now.

[OopsieDaisy]

@Daisy Tweet was here. The element of surprise is gone. Did you get anything AI in particular?

Tweet was here and just chose to ignore the wagon. In isolation I don't like that all that much, as Tweet avoiding having to react seems to me like waiting for the wagon to blow over, but also Tweet's last reaction was to it as a pure RVS wagon. I'm interested in if her reading of her wagon becomes worth commenting on now that I've provided some context for it.

[OopsieDaisy]

I like to think my day ones are pretty similar as both alignments.
Looking at day one from 2302 you might not think so

Hey since you're very active, maybe you can volunteer to share the story of 2302?

fuck it i'm active let's go

2302 was a game that lasted two days and two nights.

scumteam was elements/tweet/std.

day 1 we ended up stuck in an end of day scramble as we were getting claims left right and centre. it came down to hu tao, a claimed investigative but someone who hadn't specified their claim, and elements, who had been pushed by ckd the entire day, with me being more sporadic but also sus of el

hu tao is flipped as vt, we go into the night. vig shoots el and el flips mafia.

day 2 was basically everyone agreeing to vote std, std then claiming doctor, then the town split into two factions again. one group pushing std and another looking for another lim so we could test std in the night and basically force him to keep the vig alive. the non-std group won out and voted out tweet who also flips mafia.

night 2 emperor our mvp shoots std and goes 2/2 on the vig shots, game's over.

[OopsieDaisy]

Dang I didn't realise I was the only one on the Tweet wagon, that kinda makes my vote redundant. Hmm

[OopsieDaisy]

fuck it let's make the gera wagon a thing

VOTE: Geraintm

[OopsieDaisy]

Given what you've previously said about Gera, why do you think a wagon there would accomplish anything?

With the Tweet wagon dead, I needed to move somewhere else, so I felt joining an established wagon makes sense. Not gonna wagon myself or my biggest town read sooo my vote has landed on Gera. As much as I do think this wagon could go nowhere (see my previous posts about it), I can be wrong and I wanna see how people react to multiple decently sized wagons existing in the game.

[OopsieDaisy]

Tho tbf maybe calling the 2 votes on me a "wagon" is a bit much, anyone else wanna join em so we can have the triple threat wagons?

[OopsieDaisy]

I have had the exact opposite reaction to reading OopsieDaisy posts
To use her most recent content on this page as an example, I feel like she is overexplaining her position on things in a way that could indicate scum wanting people to be able to clearly see her thought process

What's scummy about wanting people to see your thought process? It's something I care about a lot as both alignments because without that clarity I don't understand how people could properly judge my reads.

[OopsieDaisy]

From what I can remember there's a noticeable self-consciousness and dip in enthusiasm/energy when she's scum. Here she just wants to play and get things going and it feels very motivated by wanting to make solvable content

Because she was scum in 2302, do you think it's possible that her energy could be overcompensatory as to avoid detection?

I've not read 2302, if you'd like I could skim it and see what I think?

I'm interested to see how you'd read my play in that game, since I was town there and felt I was employing the same attitude.

[OopsieDaisy]

@OopsieDaisy

What do you make of 180?

I initially voted because I felt like Oopsie's reasoning in 101 was weak; it feels really general to the point where I doubt it was the literal thought process that went through her head and feels more like an overly detailed description of what she believes she thinks like when she's town

I will say that I did try and expand on my thoughts to the max, but that came from my frustration with a lack of interaction from most people in the game at that moment. The PoE between everyone was a genuine thought process that went on in my head and it's why I pushed Tweet, but the expansion on that thought process was to provide something that people could read into. Being upfront about my meta reads w/ regards to who I wanted to push meant people would have something tangible to comment on, which I felt was sorely lacking from the thread at that point.

Then her progression onto gera in 151/152 felt like unnecessary positioning. I don't think she actually thinks there's much to get out of wagoning gera. The intent behind the post feels like it's to provide a reason for her shift in vote rather than actual interest in shifting her vote.

I admit as much in my post. The switch wasn't because I have any sort of read on Gera outside of null, or because I think the pressure would help me sort his slot directly. The switch was made because my Tweet push was going nowhere and I wanted to create a bigger wagon as RVS was starting to end, which I hoped would force people to start taking sides in the Elements/Me/Gera triple threat. And well, I say hoped, as far as I'm concerned it's already working.

It's a fine post. I like it because it's a read that progresses the game and prompts people to reshape their read on me with this information laid out, but I don't think I've been hiding this information at all (bar I guess the getting people to talk with 101 point, but I feel that motivation is laid out in all of my posts) and I think the issue Klick seems to have with how open I am about explaining my POV is just going to be something we'll have to deal with as it comes, cause it's a core part of how I play mafia.

[OopsieDaisy]

how I play mafia

This is what's suspicious to me. It seems like your focusing is too much on signaling that this is how you play mafia, and less focused on actually playing mafia. Does that make sense?

I think so? Like you're seeing my explanations regarding my play as a ploy to look good rather than engaging with the game itself? Even if the explanations themselves do make sense the fact I'm "wasting" time explaining everything in detail is detracting from actually making reads n pushes which the game needs.

[OopsieDaisy]

Second, it seems that her original manifesto of pressuring Morning Tweet (to sort her because she's the one she can read the best) isn't even followed through. Morning Tweet has engaged her and she was also here, but just focused on defending herself and didn't even acknowledge Morning Tweet. Consistent with what I thought she'll do as scum.

You asked me a direct question so I responded? And now I'm scummy for that cause I prioritised that response over analysing some fluffy posts from Tweet that were basically a scumread on El I disagreed with and question marks on me?

[OopsieDaisy]

Daisy doesn't feel any urgency in responding to Morning Tweet, a slot she thinks she can sort and whose reaction she's waiting for, is exactly what I feel. It tells me that she isn't consistent with what she says her thoughts and motivations are.

I don't have any urgency regarding responding to her because I don't think there's much there to comment on? Like there's the read on El I disagree with but that argument would prolly just go round in circles. Doesn't know how to sort me but there's not really much I can do to help that right now. Like wtf am I supposed to do with these posts I can't magic out a read just because I said I think it's worth pressuring her 100 posts ago lmao

[OopsieDaisy]

Alright. What about her read on Elements do you disagree with?

She thinks Elements is scum because "she's too happy" like last game, but the thing that keyed me into Elements being scummy last game wasn't energy levels or emotions, it was her actively trying to manipulate me into taking a stance that would benefit her in-game.

Elements posting in 2302 has the same appearence of "proactive town", but their play this game doesn't have any of that underlying agenda to put people where they want em indirectly.

[OopsieDaisy]

Like this Day 1 eagerness/happiness is at worst NAI for Elements, and I'm saying this as the player here whose played with em the most.

[OopsieDaisy]

Also gonna do the thing where I turn to the audience real quick.

HEM's push on me has really strong things in it (I really like him unearthing reads and getting me to elaborate on em), but also the gotcha thing where he asked me a direct question and then attacked me for answering that direct question over commenting on the Tweet posts rubs me in SUCH a wrong way. I always do my best to try and respond to people who want a comment from me and to have that attacked is eugh ew did not like that did not make me feel good lmao.

[OopsieDaisy]

Now that I'm also getting led out of defense mode and back into scumreading mode I am starting to realise I do not like Tweet's posts that much at all. Nothing there offended me or made me want to comment on it on first look but HEM prompting me for my thoughts has made me realise yea I don't like Tweet's thoughts there.

HEM has that gotcha thing that rubbed me the wrong way that makes me morally want to scumread him, but there's no denying he's actually got me scumhunting again and well that's an amazingly town thing to want to get out of someone.

Yea I'm hopping back on the Tweet vote I actually believe in this right now.

VOTE: Morning Tweet

[OopsieDaisy]

But you can do more than one posts in this game... It's entirely fair observation for me to make.

I can, but I wasn't exactly in the space at that point where I wanted to comment. Felt like something I could worry about doing later ykno. As I said I prioritise the questions over diving into my own thoughts on people's posts, especially when I did feel like I was coming under attack.

[OopsieDaisy]

I'll be honest I was also like, just sat on the sofa with my gf watching a tv show with her. I wasn't about to ditch her to go write my Tweet case I hadn't even realised existed lol

[OopsieDaisy]

There's no case still, but I'll wait for it!

Ok yea it's not a "case" as much as it was me reading her posts over again as you ask me for my reads and realising "o wait yea i rly don't like these posts", but shh we don't need to tell anyone that :3

[OopsieDaisy]

Can we talk about that then?

What about her posts strike you as scum-indicative? You disagree with her Elements reads, that's clear. I'm just not sure how that would make her scum?

It's the lack of content. Like bar the scumread on El what has she rly said? (It's a null read on me and a slight town on Klick). It's part of why I glossed over her posts initially, there just wasn't anything there that made me wanna comment, and that's worrying for a slot I expected to get a little more from. Tho tbf, I let up on the pressure with the switch onto the Gera wagon, so this is me also just reapplying it with some added context.

[OopsieDaisy]

I have zero interest in eliminating Oopsie today

<3

[OopsieDaisy]

It's the lack of content.

Did she have a different in the opening of your game?

Yea she was a lot more active and I preferred her proactive approach in that game to her more reactive play today.

Now, she WAS scum in that game which does plonk a great big hole in my argument, but I need to go for a bit so I'm just gonna let this sit for a bit lmaoo.

[OopsieDaisy]

Well, she did get a lot less active Day 2 and that's when I voted her so maybe I'm just opening up holes in my argument that aren't there. Hmm...

Ok actually going now I definitely don't have problems disengaging whaaa

[OopsieDaisy]

Hello clidd!!!! I didn't realize you were still playing on here

Now that I'm also getting led out of defense mode and back into scumreading mode I am starting to realise I do not like Tweet's posts that much at all. Nothing there offended me or made me want to comment on it on first look but HEM prompting me for my thoughts has made me realise yea I don't like Tweet's thoughts there.

HEM has that gotcha thing that rubbed me the wrong way that makes me morally want to scumread him, but there's no denying he's actually got me scumhunting again and well that's an amazingly town thing to want to get out of someone.

Yea I'm hopping back on the Tweet vote I actually believe in this right now.

VOTE: Morning Tweet

!

tell me What exactly do you not like about them, Daisy

And what does HEM have to do with this, thought this was between us two

I thought your Elements read was rubbish and nothing in that bout of posts you made pinged me as town whatsoever.

HEM is here because I was also trying to sort HEM in my head at the same time dw about it. HEM clearly wants me on you or at least thinks I should be on you so I wanted to screen HEM before I voted you.

[OopsieDaisy]

I do agree that me voting Gera rather than sticking on you was a mistake. The reason I wanted to switch was to create wagons after the Tweet wagon died (I think lone votes are kinda useless and giving numbers to someone else's push can often be just as valuable, but the OD and El wagons weren't of interest to me so the only wagon I could add to was the Gera one), but all it did was ease off the pressure for nothing cause people could easily see I wasn't actually suspicious of Gera whatsoever.

[OopsieDaisy]

Daisy, why do you think it's a priority to vote for me now, when no one is voting me and you don't have a case yet -- rather than when like 1 or 2 ppl were voting me and the wagon was dissipating (then you switched to Gera with me)

I can think of a reason that makes sense as town, which is simply that you strongly think im scum (So i'm still pondering on this one)

My vibes are acting strangely maybe

But im mostly wondering, when did that read of me start to kick in?

I'm not sure you're quite at like, "priority vote" levels, but my vote needs to be somewhere and of the people I've given space in my brain to, you're the one that's coming up most scummy to me.

I think Elements is golden (for now, give me two days and I'm sure my paranoia will flare up again here), Klick/HEM are both scumreading me but from what I can see their reasoning doesn't seem particularly flawed, just coming from people who aren't used to me being me. We've got Gera/Clidd defending me, Clidd has some fine analysis but funnily enough I now townread Gera more. I think he word-for-word said the same thing about absolutely not wanting to vote my slot in 2302 somewhere lmao.

I am waiting on a few others to comment. Karma especially he usually has a different take on the game that's worth talking about. But for now I think parking my vote on you makes sense.

[OopsieDaisy]

Actually Karma's quietness is concerning, especially since he's V/LAing soon. Gonna vocalise that worry now and hopefully it'll call him into action :3

[OopsieDaisy]

Daisy, when you said you were going to pressure Tweet in hopes of getting a read, did you expect her to react a certain way or were you hoping for a specific response that was alignment indicative?

I'll be honest, whilst I felt she was the most likely person to give me something that I could work with which wouldn't derail the game, there wasn't any sort of specific reaction/response I was expecting going into it.

[OopsieDaisy]

But hey it's definitely getting a reaction now, and I do think the reactive/proactive split between Tweet's town/mafia play is something I'm seeing. Also what's worth noting is that Tweet did back off the Elements read once I'd come in with my strong disagreement, which also feeds into the reactiveness. Typically you'd expect scum to be more defensive/survivalistic and town to be more scumhunty, but obvs people's metas can sometimes run adverse to this and yea my argument doesn't hold much water if this meta is developing around Tweet.

[OopsieDaisy]

Tweet's town/mafia play is something I'm seeing

Did you read any of Tweet's town game prior to this?

Nope, but she's definitely playing this game very different to 2302 at least. Tho she only really came up under pressure in that game in the 2nd half of day 2..

[OopsieDaisy]

And her reaction to that pressure was *very* different, she just sorta took it without much comment. Tho this fits in again with her talking about how she starts proactive and then falls off as the game goes on as scum.

[OopsieDaisy]

I'm like a yo-yo today but I've liked Tweet's reactions to my push when thinking through a meta lens. Obvs, I am putting a bit of trust in Tweet's talk about self-meta (she could always just be doing a cheeky lie), hence why I think she's sitting at null for me, but I've now actually got what I wanted initially out of my push on Tweet, a reaction that means something to me.

Moving on, hey Karma I wanna hear your takes.

VOTE: Curiouskarmadog

[OopsieDaisy]

That's a mindmeld lmao

[OopsieDaisy]

I kinda wanted to townread

OopsieDaisy

for her effort and engagement in the game, but on the other hand, the content she made does not really make sense game-wise and logic-wise. And a lot of the things she said could have been shortened to a few sentences instead of whole paragraphs. Reading 186 was a headache.

Do you think long posts that don't justify their length mean the player making them is scummy? That just seems like an issue you have with my playstyle as a whole rather than anything alignment indicative.

[OopsieDaisy]

Not refuting your other point tho I've been all over the place today, tho I do feel I'm starting to get somewhere now that I've got some solid reads established.

[OopsieDaisy]

Also, what makes Clidd's defence of me produce a townread, but Roden's produce a suspicion?

[OopsieDaisy]

I kinda wanted to townread

OopsieDaisy

for her effort and engagement in the game, but on the other hand, the content she made does not really make sense game-wise and logic-wise. And a lot of the things she said could have been shortened to a few sentences instead of whole paragraphs. Reading 186 was a headache.

Do you think long posts that don't justify their length mean the player making them is scummy? That just seems like an issue you have with my playstyle as a whole rather than anything alignment indicative.

It could potentially be AI, because it generates the impression of providing high-volume content.

Ok, I can see that. Unfortunately long posts are just something I do cause my thoughts run away from me, sorry if they bother you.

[OopsieDaisy]

UNVOTE:

Do you like Gera now?

[OopsieDaisy]

UNVOTE: Curiouskarmadog
VOTE: Emperor

Hey Emperor how do you feel about the Elements slot right now? And if you don't wanna comment on El (or you can answer both that'd be awesome <3), is there any player or post that has stood out to you as alignment indicative?

[OopsieDaisy]

And do you have any reads that are leaning scummy right now or is it just townreads you've got for now?

[OopsieDaisy]

Also an act of goodwill for answering my questions: UNVOTE: Emperor

[OopsieDaisy]

I legit was theorycrafting in my head that maybe Takutai was doing some sort of '"use photos only" challenge or something lmao (which I then realised was silly because I saw them speak right after)

[OopsieDaisy]

Hum, I don't think anything has changed about my vote.

Unlike Geraint, Karma's uncooperative stance doesn't sound to me like ''town not caring about being eliminated'' but rather ''scum trying to create the false sense of towny bravado''.

The lack of reads in this context seems like a maneuver to avoid associations, not boldness. At least the way I see it.

The thing is I get your ick with the post, but that towny bravado is very real from my experience playing with Karma. He's very confident about his reads and tbf, he was 2 for 2 on em last game so I can see where that confidence comes from.

That's why I was kinda hoping he'd kick in before the V/LA and give us something that he feels passionate about, but alas it looks like we're not getting that

[OopsieDaisy]

I'm not looking at his posts there and saying he's town, I think his complete lack of reads is something I'm concerned about because I would expect him to have something at this point, but he does have the excuse of being super busy to hide behind and his attitude itself isn't ringing alarm bells to me, so the slot's just sitting at null for me unfortunately.

[OopsieDaisy]

Hum, I don't think anything has changed about my vote.

Unlike Geraint, Karma's uncooperative stance doesn't sound to me like ''town not caring about being eliminated'' but rather ''scum trying to create the false sense of towny bravado''.

The lack of reads in this context seems like a maneuver to avoid associations, not boldness. At least the way I see it.

The thing is I get your ick with the post, but that towny bravado is very real from my experience playing with Karma. He's very confident about his reads and tbf, he was 2 for 2 on em last game so I can see where that confidence comes from.

That's why I was kinda hoping he'd kick in before the V/LA and give us something that he feels passionate about, but alas it looks like we're not getting that

Do you have an example about this?

It's a bit hard for me to classify it towny without more context.

Because of RVS ending super early in 2302 it's hard to get much of a read on how CKD plays before committing to reads, but these are the kinds of posts I expect to see from a passionate town Karma that show off his confidence/bravado.

we got a couple days before the end of the Day.

Out of everyone here, Elements has actually done scummy shit. I dont believe in the explanation of the lie. Have they done anything thats town here? Sort of at a loss as to why people arent joining this wagon.

For those who think my vote should be on X.

give me the case, Ill change my vote if you can sale me. Dont say, "look at my post Y", give me your case a new. I want to see that people ACTUALLY believe in their vote.

If you think my vote is absolutely wrong....EXPLAIN WHY.

we catch scum because of people stances and when and why they change.

Bris, OD, and EFN...arent voting. I want to know why.... I want you to vote. even if it is on me...tell everyone why you think I am scum...I just want to see stances...DAY 1 STANCES.

who cares if I am aggressive? I post something, you dont read, yet saying I am tunneling (even though you dont really know). makes a person mad. hint: please say being aggressive is scummy...please.

quit pointing at other people. Answer the question, and then we can talk about towwl.

Ill catch up tonight.

I see Elements flipped scum

ALWAYS GO WITH MY GUT.

going to go back and read WHO opposed the wagon and when.

"why so aggressive"...LOLOLOLOL....that was just AtE

Like it's this passion that just bleeds through the screen where you can see just how much Karma wants his read to get through that I want to see from him. That attitude of distrusting others and pushing on with his own thing isn't a lie, it's how he plays, and him claiming cause he has 4 votes on him speaks to that attitude of not expecting others to do the right thing without him.

[OopsieDaisy]

Yes, Roden, repeat yourself, because that's what I'm asking you to do.

VOTE: Roden

I call bullshit on your read on me. There's no way for you to judge that I'm town based on the posts that you say you judged me from.

Because how can you? How can you judge from page 12, post 291, day 1, on any of my posts that I'm not "scheming" in this game? You can't.

Yea I mean the funny thing is I think there's evidence in this game already that HEM *is* scheming. Look at how the interaction with HEM & I went where he asked me a question to divert my attention away from Tweet's posts, and then called me out for focusing on that question and not the Tweet posts. That felt SO much like scheming to me.

What I don't understand is how Roden seems to have completely missed that, unless Roden is looking for longer term scheming in which case how are you even meant to find that at this point in the game?

[OopsieDaisy]

Like for me I think my reads on both have become worse because of the above. If Roden is correct on the scheming thing then I come to the conclusion that HEM is scummy, not townie. If Roden is bullshitting the scheming thing, then he looks hella scummy.

[OopsieDaisy]

Like for me I think my reads on both have become worse because of the above. If Roden is correct on the scheming thing then I come to the conclusion that HEM is scummy, not townie. If Roden is bullshitting the scheming thing, then he looks hella scummy.

do you think there's a world where they're both scum?

I mean there's always a world but I think it's unlikely. I understand the benefits of creating a big conflict between two scum players Day 1 to distance from each other, and I'm sure these two players are capable of it, but it's not worth worrying about right now imo.

[OopsieDaisy]

Also idk if anyone can back up this claim but I've hear Day 1 busses are the most common on this site, is that true or not?

[OopsieDaisy]

Yea I mean the funny thing is I think there's evidence in this game already that HEM *is* scheming. Look at how the interaction with HEM & I went where he asked me a question to divert my attention away from Tweet's posts, and then called me out for focusing on that question and not the Tweet posts. That felt SO much like scheming to me.

What I don't understand is how Roden seems to have completely missed that, unless Roden is looking for longer term scheming in which case how are you even meant to find that at this point in the game?

To be fair, you're right. It kinda started at post 139 when he made you talk about a past game and then the topic of

Morning Tweet

never resurfaced.

I would still leave

HEM

be for the time being though. I'm not at all sure if this was scheming or just part of his aggressive play of pushing different buttons to see which one clicks.

On the first point, HEM was prompting Elements for a summary of 2302, not me. I just jumped on it because I was also v active at the time so it made sense.

On the second, to clarify you're on the same page as Roden with regards to a scheming HEM = a scummy HEM?

[OopsieDaisy]

I want elaboration on the scheming thing, don't get how HEM is scummy if scheming = a townread when there's been displays of him scheming already. Don't exactly know how many people are on the wagon right now but I hope I'm not putting it in hammer range lol.

VOTE: Roden

[OopsieDaisy]

Ok yea I had a look the wagon's at like 4 votes I was paranoid about nothing.

[OopsieDaisy]

Takutai is giving me Enchant energy

Weirdly I recognise the name yet don't remember having read a single game of theirs lmao. Can you clarify what you mean by "enchant energy" cause I have no idea what that means bar being similar to Takutai

[OopsieDaisy]

Doesn't do much, gives reads from time to time. Will hammer without posting intent.

Live Daisy reaction to this post:

"Oh well I guess that's fair some players are like that at least we get re- OH NO"

[OopsieDaisy]

Just for the above post I won't hammer you.

<3

[OopsieDaisy]

@furtive How would you say your forum meta differs from your irl meta? I'm wondering if there's anything I need to keep in mind when reading you here.

[OopsieDaisy]

@furtive How would you say your forum meta differs from your irl meta? I'm wondering if there's anything I need to keep in mind when reading you here.

Forum's a completely different game. I don't enjoy it as much, so I don't do as much in the games.

Ok, was asking cause this is exactly what I was picking up, did feel like you were taking more of a step back than normal. Didn't know if it was because El/HEM/I have been posting a bunch and dominating the thread or if it was a meta issue, glad I've been able to diagnose that now.

Still keeping my eye on you tho I'm not super ecstatic about your slot rn, we'll see how the game develops and I'll revisit you when there's more info to work with.

[OopsieDaisy]

The one that just happened and is multiple pages long

I did think you meant that one, just making sure

I think Roden's towny

Whilst I've got you here, what makes Roden towny to you after the exchange with HEM?

[OopsieDaisy]

Yes, Roden, repeat yourself, because that's what I'm asking you to do.

VOTE: Roden

I call bullshit on your read on me. There's no way for you to judge that I'm town based on the posts that you say you judged me from.

Because how can you? How can you judge from page 12, post 291, day 1, on any of my posts that I'm not "scheming" in this game? You can't.

Yea I mean the funny thing is I think there's evidence in this game already that HEM *is* scheming. Look at how the interaction with HEM & I went where he asked me a question to divert my attention away from Tweet's posts, and then called me out for focusing on that question and not the Tweet posts. That felt SO much like scheming to me.

What I don't understand is how Roden seems to have completely missed that, unless Roden is looking for longer term scheming in which case how are you even meant to find that at this point in the game?

That's not what scheming is? That's just poking and prodding. If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you. Neither of those things happened.

Okay. Do you have confidence in spotting these underlying schemes before they come to fruition then? Because otherwise I don't understand how your townread of HEM has any basis.

[OopsieDaisy]

Yes, Roden, repeat yourself, because that's what I'm asking you to do.

VOTE: Roden

I call bullshit on your read on me. There's no way for you to judge that I'm town based on the posts that you say you judged me from.

Because how can you? How can you judge from page 12, post 291, day 1, on any of my posts that I'm not "scheming" in this game? You can't.

Yea I mean the funny thing is I think there's evidence in this game already that HEM *is* scheming. Look at how the interaction with HEM & I went where he asked me a question to divert my attention away from Tweet's posts, and then called me out for focusing on that question and not the Tweet posts. That felt SO much like scheming to me.

What I don't understand is how Roden seems to have completely missed that, unless Roden is looking for longer term scheming in which case how are you even meant to find that at this point in the game?

That's not what scheming is? That's just poking and prodding. If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you. Neither of those things happened.

Okay. Do you have confidence in spotting these underlying schemes before they come to fruition then? Because otherwise I don't understand how your townread of HEM has any basis.

Reread this message and realised you implied you can spot it in the previous message, you can ignore this question.

[OopsieDaisy]

I do, actually.

Scum!HEM game where I started picking up on what he was doing a little too late.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89172&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Scum!HEM game where I caught what he was doing very early on.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89536&user_se ... B%5D=35782

And for good measure, town!HEM game where there was nothing to catch, but is a good showcase of our typical TvT interactions.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89510&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Thanks a lot for these links Roden, it's helped inform my read a lot

The biggest thing I got out of these games is the sheer difference in how T/T Roden/HEM interact, and how they interact when one of them is scum. In the first two games they're very confrontational with each other and are desperate to discredit the other with their own points. In the final game, they're just chilling gamesolving together holding hands and frolicking through the fields.

Obvs I have to keep in mind these are only examples of HEM being scum in the dynamic, not Roden, but the difference is stark and the interactions between the two right now scream to me that this isn't T/T if these examples are trustworthy interpretations.

Now as to who is scum, ehhhh that's hard to call because I don't have a Roden scum/HEM town example to look at. Roden is someone who I thought came in with a read that had no basis, but by providing his explanations and straight up bringing receipts, it's clear Roden cares a lot about defending his position and I'm seeing where his confidence on HEM is coming from. If this was simply a pressure wagon, I'd be satisfied at this point and hop off.

HEM, on the other hand, was the player who went on the aggressive at Roden first, and kicked off the dynamic that makes me think this isn't TvT. Since then he's sunk his teeth in and not let go. These examples make HEM look scummy in this game with the context of these examples, but my issue is that these examples are provided by the other player in the pairing, and the person who I think is scum if HEM is town, so I'm not sure how much weight I really should be giving them?

I'm gonna do this and see what happens

UNVOTE: Roden
VOTE: HEM

[OopsieDaisy]

Basically TL:DR is that I'm starting to feel better about the Roden slot due to some strong examples coming in and clarification on reads that has shown that a lot of this 1v1 is based on a miscommunication on what the word scheming means to different players in the game, but those examples show that this is likely TvS based on what I've read, so I'm now moving to voting HEM.

[OopsieDaisy]

Roden is someone who I thought came in with a read that had no basis, but by providing his explanations and straight up bringing receipts, it's clear Roden cares a lot about defending his position and I'm seeing where his confidence on HEM is coming from.

Tell me: Do you think that my point against Roden has been addressed? Do you also think that scum!Roden would not care about defending his position?
In these games, was it Roden's ability to judge whether or not I have been scheming that made him believe I was scum/town?

I think you can piece Roden's answers together and see that your point has been addressed. You believe that Roden wouldn't be able to tell if you were pulling off a scheme before it went off because you'd have to be analysing people's posts at a very paranoia-filled level in order to find one of your schemes. Roden disagrees and believes he can read your scum playstyle well, including the scheming part, and has provided games where he has read you as scum correctly to back up his point.

Like there's just a fundamental disagreement there that I don't think is going to change, and continuously arguing over this point isn't going to get us anywhere. In fact I remember in one of the games Roden provided you held up a super hard 1v1 with another player to the point where the entire game warped around it, and in that very game you were scum!! (I forget which one but iirc it was with the person who's name started with A)

[OopsieDaisy]

based on a miscommunication on what the word scheming means to different players in the game

Okay. Let's use Roden's own definition of scheming. Do you think he would be able to distinguish it?

If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you.

There is absolutely no way to distinguish this. No uninformed person with healthy paranoia can determine this. Unless Roden knows I'm town, there's no way he would be confident to claim that I have not been doing this.

Like truthfully I don't know whether Roden could distinguish this or not, because I'm not a mind reader, but it's most certainly what he's claiming and that's where the disagreement lies.

[OopsieDaisy]

Well, if Roden is uninformed, he is also not a mind reader and thus he won't be able to make that read.

It's not a disagreement, it's proof that his read is bullshit.

Yes it is a disagreement lmao.

You think the read is bs, Roden is confident in the reasoning for the read. Do you think those stances are going to change by discussing it any further?

[OopsieDaisy]

Would yours? I kinda get a feeling that you've been ignoring my counterpoints against Roden and not evaluating it fairly.

Yea I am ignoring them because I'll be honest, I haven't got the time or effort to go read through three full games to verify whether what you're telling me is real or not. I skimmed the ISOs that Roden provided and came to my conclusions through them, and those told me that you or Roden are likely scum this game because I saw more of this kind of interaction between you two in games 1 & 2 than game 3.

Is it possible I missed some of the things you mentioned because I was lightly skimming through ISOs? Absolutely. Does that mean I'm interested in slamming the brakes on my push? Not for now, I'll reassess later.

I'm gonna do my best to head off now and disengage, I'm happy with my contributions for today and want to see what effect they're going to have on the rest of the group.

[OopsieDaisy]

@Oopsie

Could you lay out where human is scheming most prominently to you

The most clear example to me is how this passage of play went down:

In 198, HEM asks me a question regarding his read on me, and seemingly wants to clarify if the conclusion he's coming to makes sense to him.

I respond in 199, taking the post at face value and responding to his question.

But then 207 drops, and HEM reveals the reason he asked me this question was to show that I was more interested in defending myself than responding to your posts that had come about an hour earlier, despite the fact that I was wanting to pressure you at the time.

It's small scale scheming, but it's scheming to me. However Roden's definition of scheming is more about the longer-term manipulations so this point didn't end up holding much weight in the end.

[OopsieDaisy]

However with Tweet's 619, Roden's insistence on the townread, and HEM's descriptions of the games that have gone unchallenged, it seems my skims of those ISOs aren't consistent with how everyone else who's read those games has seen them, so they likely don't hold much weight.

UNVOTE: HEM

Back at the drawing board lmao.

[OopsieDaisy]

Readlist time because fuck it content

Townie

Elements
Tweet

Townlean

Klick
Clidd
Gera

Null

Humaneatingmonkey/Roden (they share a spot right now, I think one of these two flipping helps sort the game a lot but they’re both clearly strong players who you don’t want to just throw away for the sake of it)
Emperor
Curiouskarmadog
Takutai
Greeting

Scumlean

furtiveglance

Can someone who townreads Greeting let me know why? I'm struggling to sort the slot whatsoever and the fact that everyone is managing to find townreads there is pinging me a bit.

And yea Furtive has the right excuse but he just feels like a different player than what I'm used to and I can't shake that feeling, so gonna throw support on this wagon.

VOTE: Furtive

[OopsieDaisy]

fuck that gif is funny

also thanks for responding clidd, i'll give it a proper look once i've got some free time

[OopsieDaisy]

@Daisy

My reason for leaning town on Greeting is mostly tonality and the way he played until now.

If you look at his ISO, I mean, it's not like there is anything extraordinary but the basics seem transparent/honest imo, thus towny.

The slot was off the radar and it would be simple for scum!Greeting to just go with the flow, but if you look at posts like 497, 498 and 499 you will notice that he didn't just stay complacently static - he created a certain *noise* while trying to navigate the game, which reflected to me as a potential towny perspective voicing his doubts and seeking information to advance his own reads, not just like ''oh hey, I'm a generic townie with no personal opinion following whatever the consensus calls for''.

Not the greatest read, sure, but it's what I have for now.

I get where you're coming from, and there are some players in this game who's slots have been more passive, but compared to a strong amount of town I'm not sure Greeting's *noise* really amounts to much in the grander scheme of the game right now.

Maybe that's not such a bad thing since we have a lot of loud voices, but unlike other townleans I have with similar levels of activity, I've found myself having a harder time grasping Greeting's overall thoughts on the game so null still feels like an appropriate slot for Greeting to be in my head.

[OopsieDaisy]

On the first point, HEM was prompting Elements for a summary of 2302, not me. I just jumped on it because I was also v active at the time so it made sense.

On the second, to clarify you're on the same page as Roden with regards to a scheming HEM = a scummy HEM?

My bad. I ISO'd you and assumed the question was to you.

I cannot be on the same page as

Roden

or anyone else for that matter, as my knowledge of

HEM

's meta is not that great. A townie surely doesn't have any interest in scheming though?

Also realised I missed this when ISOing Greeting. Basically after the Roden/HEM debacle the definition of scheming seems to be different for different people, and I think the short-term gotchas make sense for townie players to make, but the longer term manipulations don't. Wanted to check this because you were justifying leaving HEM be because you couldn't decipher whether he was scheming or not, and I wanted to know if that was the central focus of your read there.

[OopsieDaisy]

My meta take on this is that scum!Greeting has a tendency to formulate redundant impressions, while town!Greeting is more interested in going after the right topics and making his voice heard, although not always expressed correctly.

You can see that if you notice post viewtopic.php?p=13718896#p13718896 in that game and make a comparison with post 304 here.

Ok I am seeing what you mean in the sense that Greeting's reads aren't taking such big leaps from 0 to 100 as they were in that game. The progression does feel more natural here in comparison.

[OopsieDaisy]

Maybe that's not such a bad thing since we have a lot of loud voices, but unlike other townleans I have with similar levels of activity, I've found myself having a harder time grasping Greeting's overall thoughts on the game so null still feels like an appropriate slot for Greeting to be in my head.

At the moment I'm just sorting things in my head. I shared a few of my reads before.

I think I can give you a townlean for the time being.

I uphold my

clidd

townread.

How come I'm a townlean now?

[OopsieDaisy]

furtive no longer is soulless. i think he just ran out of fucks to give since i last saw him

Spoiler:

I'm not that annoyed, but I don't really see the point of Greeting asking all these questions if he isn't actually scumreading the players I'm townreading.

How lol. He's clearly asking you those questions to try and understand your thought process on those reads since they mismatch with his. This isn't a hard concept to grasp right?

[OopsieDaisy]

furtive no longer is soulless. i think he just ran out of fucks to give since i last saw him

Spoiler:

I'm not that annoyed, but I don't really see the point of Greeting asking all these questions if he isn't actually scumreading the players I'm townreading.

How lol. He's clearly asking you those questions to try and understand your thought process on those reads since they mismatch with his. This isn't a hard concept to grasp right?

I don't consider this kind of stuff top priority in a game.

Ok. What do you think we should be prioritising instead then?

[OopsieDaisy]

okay thanks Watson

what do you make of Greeting asking a question that you had already answered?

i have an excuse. im playing on mobile right now.
but if he's voting you, he probably should have a good idea of where your head is right?

I think Greeting is scummy for treading water yeah.

Treading water does feel very accurate with how I've been reading Greeting's play so far.

[OopsieDaisy]

But my issue is that it doesn't seem like this is out of character for Greeting as a player?

[OopsieDaisy]

But my issue is that it doesn't seem like this is out of character for Greeting as a player?

Nevermind, I decided to pick a town Greeting game off of his wiki page to ISO so I could check on this, went with Mini Norm 2262 and wow he was making some louder plays there. Now, it DID result in him getting voted out Day 1, so maybe there's an argument that over the past year Greeting has changed up his playstyle cause it wasn't reaping him rewards, but it's worth noting.

[OopsieDaisy]

I like the idea of a Roden flip cause that info would make Day 1 a lot more useful than like, a Gera flip. But if we're in the "shrug guess we gotta lim someone who i don't hard scumread" tier of HEM's pool, I think Greeting is a muchhh better vote than Gera or Elements because Greeting's flip does already tell us something (Clidd's defence of the slot, Furtive's offense, etc.). There's also the fact that I think voting out Gera or El today is weakkkk those feel like the kind of low hanging fruit elimination scum wanna push through.

[OopsieDaisy]

@El who's your top three town right now?

[OopsieDaisy]

But my issue is that it doesn't seem like this is out of character for Greeting as a player?

But my issue is that it doesn't seem like this is out of character for Greeting as a player?

Nevermind, I decided to pick a town Greeting game off of his wiki page to ISO so I could check on this, went with Mini Norm 2262 and wow he was making some louder plays there. Now, it DID result in him getting voted out Day 1, so maybe there's an argument that over the past year Greeting has changed up his playstyle cause it wasn't reaping him rewards, but it's worth noting.

O

I definitely have more of a passive impression but ive only played a few games with him.

Tbf, my skimreads have proven unreliable and I could've just picked a game where Greeting was just feeling like playing a lil different, but this is what my research has told me. If you've played several games w/ Greeting that's a lot more useful than my 0 previous to this game.

[OopsieDaisy]

Like it coulda just been getting hard pushed Day 1 that got Greeting to give those sorts of reactions tbf, meta be like that

[OopsieDaisy]

VOTE: Roden

[OopsieDaisy]

I like the idea of a Roden flip cause that info would make Day 1 a lot more useful than like, a Gera flip. But if we're in the "shrug guess we gotta lim someone who i don't hard scumread" tier of HEM's pool, I think Greeting is a muchhh better vote than Gera or Elements because Greeting's flip does already tell us something (Clidd's defence of the slot, Furtive's offense, etc.). There's also the fact that I think voting out Gera or El today is weakkkk those feel like the kind of low hanging fruit elimination scum wanna push through.

You are aware I have Greeting as townlock.

I am. Have you got any arguments that can win me over on that slot?

[OopsieDaisy]

in no particular order:
you, monkey, tweet

dang i was hoping for something more but i suppose i got what i wanted lol

definitely the reads of someone who wants to maintain the status quo tho hmm

[OopsieDaisy]

Or he dies and flips town but idk if that necessarily makes you scum as much as would help bring that to light if u are

cause seeing how you'd play after being very wrong would be kindai nteresting

this is like a big reason why i want the wagon in the first place. i feel like trying to sort HEM is just gonna be impossible without some big flips around the slot, and the Roden flip should help inform some of those interactions.

[OopsieDaisy]

this is real guys i am getting cold feet

have you tried a blanket? or socks?

[OopsieDaisy]

Or he dies and flips town but idk if that necessarily makes you scum as much as would help bring that to light if u are

cause seeing how you'd play after being very wrong would be kindai nteresting

this is like a big reason why i want the wagon in the first place. i feel like trying to sort HEM is just gonna be impossible without some big flips around the slot, and the Roden flip should help inform some of those interactions.

my worry was that axeing roden could be a problem because roden seems like a very competent player, and having competent town players is poggers, but the fact roden's just sorta dropped off the face of the earth isn't filling me with confidence

[OopsieDaisy]

Oh come on the Karma vote is like the worst one imaginable what do we even get from flipping that slot?

[OopsieDaisy]

The day ends. If Karma comes in swinging I'll gladly hammer Roden to the same effect.

Why is it so important that we any% speedrun the day?

[OopsieDaisy]

Also 847 is a banger that makes me doubt my vote on Roden, but I don't see us agreeing on any of the wagons I rly want (Furtive/Greeting) soo ok yea I see why the Karma vote is a thing now.

[OopsieDaisy]

Actually,

UNVOTE: Roden

I've lost confidence in the wagon and HEM's read progression on the slot. The last few pages don't make sense when you keep in mind how he was acting towards Roden during the scheming debacle.

[OopsieDaisy]

Actually,

UNVOTE: Roden

I've lost confidence in the wagon and HEM's read progression on the slot. The last few pages don't make sense when you keep in mind how he was acting towards Roden during the scheming debacle.

Like I now think the most likely world is Roden Town/HEM Scum with HEM realising he's gonna be barreling his push straight into a town flip and with no one around who was actually trying to stop it, he needed to do so himself before he put himself in an awful spot for the next set of days.

And then when Roden reveals he now scumreads HEM, HEM is right back on the wagon because a Roden scumreading him is gonna be super difficult to deal with, so he now feels he has to get him out asap.

I understand these are just my interpretations but it reads super badly to me.

[OopsieDaisy]

ok i don't see any use in voting karma, and it's looking like the only two options are roden or karma. gonna have to go against my reads which is cringe but the roden flip does have value.

VOTE: Roden

[OopsieDaisy]

Not really. If Roden is town you're just throwing away someone who's trying.

Karma is going to try so hard tomorrow you're not ready lol. I do not want him out of the game before he gets a chance to actually interact with it without life blocking his way.

[OopsieDaisy]

I want no elimination here perhaps because in honesty I was unaware that Curiouskarmadog is on vla. If people are unsatisfied with Roden, very well. You know who I'm sussing elements.

Isn't no limming on odd numbers awful because you lose tempo to the mafia? (Alongside losing any info you'd get from a town-decided flip)

[OopsieDaisy]

I think I'd genuinely rather be voted out than us nolim

[OopsieDaisy]

I've said you can play your way before. If I have a choice between killing one in two sharp town players and saving two sharp players I know what I'll choose. I am only tabling it at this point because you and others don't want to touch karma and this day is a bore.

Sure, but I want to argue against your point because I think nolimming is bogus and only benefits the mafia in the long run.

[OopsieDaisy]

i don't think it should ever even be considered an option unless it's cut and dry mechanically beneficial

[OopsieDaisy]

I've said you can play your way before. If I have a choice between killing one in two sharp town players and saving two sharp players I know what I'll choose. I am only tabling it at this point because you and others don't want to touch karma and this day is a bore.

Sure, but I want to argue against your point because I think nolimming is bogus and only benefits the mafia in the long run.

I really don't care. Just push the vanilla town you want to flip so we can end the day so town can realize they're looking in the wrong places and letting the narrative become stale.

Cool, your apathy is helping us so much to solve this game

And yea I'm back on the Roden wagon I want that through.

[OopsieDaisy]

I see. You know I've been calling an elements/oopsiedaisy/geraintm team for a while. This isn't apathy toward the game, you know this. This is apathy towards into getting into useless arguments with someone when I know beforehand I won't be agreeing with them. I don't do that, do you want me to though?

Just give your reasons why Roden vanilla has to die and get it over with, I'm not allowing anyone to make other pushes or claimhunt today by stringing out this gamestate. Apathy? Diversion is also an interesting word.

God I wish I had that article about how town's WR tanks when you don't vote out anyone Day 1 that would save me a whole heap of trouble, but sure we would just argue in circles I get what you're saying. I just have a very adverse reaction when someone expresses apathy in mafia cause at the very least I want everyone giving a shit about the game.

I want Roden out because the flip gives us info on lots of people, and if we don't knock one of Roden/HEM out this debacle will stretch throughout a good chunk of the game because it's a meta disagreement and I'd rather that not happen. There are other lims I would also like but I see your point about keeping our votes within the claims and recognise pushing outside of those is probably higher risk than we would like.

[OopsieDaisy]

I think I also see why you think I'm in a team with El and Gera, cause I've been defending them off of what can be perceived as very little this entire Day and you're not a big fan of the inactive slots in this game, but we can deal with that when it comes to it.

[OopsieDaisy]

You're nice but right now I see no reason to get into it with you if you yourself aren't willing to address something like oppsie/elements/geraintm.

If you wanted me to address it earlier you coulda just asked and I'd have responded, but you sorta just kept saying this team was a possibility without any other context so I didn't really feel like it was worth commenting on.

[OopsieDaisy]

Of course. I think Elements and geraintm feel the same way.

Yea I think it's fair to say both of em are fairly happy with how today is going and haven't felt a need to come in and impact the game more than necessary. That is scummy in isolation and my read on El has deteriorated a bit because of it, but I've seen multiple town Gera games where he's played exactly like this Day 1 so I felt like pushing him for it is super unwarranted.

[OopsieDaisy]

I know you wanna avoid meta but yea that's my POV on em.

[OopsieDaisy]

I don't like that votecount at all.

Clidd, Greeting or geraint wagons anyone?

I'd be open to a Greeting wagon, but ultimately I'm not sure if we'd be able to garner enough support

[OopsieDaisy]

And then we'd be forcing another claim through and that's not very poggers

[OopsieDaisy]

And then we'd be forcing another claim through and that's not very poggers

Yep , dislike the endless stream of wagons that just help scum. See last game

You gonna throw a vote onto one of the two leading wagons then?

[OopsieDaisy]

Someone other than Monkey describe what is making Roden your top choice

Roden has miles more discussion/meaningful reading around him over Curious. Day 1 I want to make sure our flip gives us good info, thus I want Roden out over Curious. The odds of hitting scum aren't high no matter where we vote and I feel a Roden vote progresses the game more than any other of the options floated.

[OopsieDaisy]

If I got free reign I'd go for Greeting or Furtive, because I scumread them more and I still feel like they give us some info, but I'm aware I don't have that free reign so I'm looking for the best option available.

[OopsieDaisy]

I just don't see what's scummy about Karma whatsoever outside of inactivity, which pings multiple players in this game and those players don't have the excuse of a V/LA for half the day.

pedit: swag

[OopsieDaisy]

Well here's the trying I was mentioning

[OopsieDaisy]

Someone other than Monkey describe what is making Roden your top choice

Roden has miles more discussion/meaningful reading around him over Curious. Day 1 I want to make sure our flip gives us good info, thus I want Roden out over Curious. The odds of hitting scum aren't high no matter where we vote and I feel a Roden vote progresses the game more than any other of the options floated.

That's just not a good reason if Roden is going to end up flipping town

Sure, but we don't know that do we? There very much *is* still the possibility of Roden flipping scum.

[OopsieDaisy]

18, 432, OD posts my old game, says I have passion. Not sure why she doesn’t understand I am gone for a holiday. I got busy before I left, I posted Thursday morning, thread blew up, I posted a check in post Friday and left. But she is still harping on me not posting. SCUMMY way to justify their suspicion.

I wasn't scumreading you at this point, once you came in with a claim and a white flag kinda response to your push you went from scummy to null. Not sure where you're reading a continued suspicion of you in these posts since I argued against Clidd's push against you because apparently you were faking your bravado.

[OopsieDaisy]

14, 337 OD unvote me, votes EFN.

I don’t like this vote, I mean if you thought I was scum at this point, why unvote after a VT claim? also why vote EFN? Nothing about this post is good.

This was a pressure vote. I used it in order to prompt Emperor to respond to my questions regarding his reads, and hey it worked out near instantly. Was not an announcement of a scumread.

[OopsieDaisy]

Same thinking was behind my vote on you, whilst I did find your quietness concerning pre-explanation about being busy, I also wanted to put pressure on your slot so that you would have to respond to the push.

[OopsieDaisy]

Same thinking was behind my vote on you, whilst I did find your quietness concerning pre-explanation about being busy, I also wanted to put pressure on your slot so that you would have to respond to the push.

Well, same *sorta* thinking. Obvs I did find your absence scummy until you came in with your explanation.

[OopsieDaisy]

18, 432, OD posts my old game, says I have passion. Not sure why she doesn’t understand I am gone for a holiday. I got busy before I left, I posted Thursday morning, thread blew up, I posted a check in post Friday and left. But she is still harping on me not posting. SCUMMY way to justify their suspicion.

I wasn't scumreading you at this point, once you came in with a claim and a white flag kinda response to your push you went from scummy to null. Not sure where you're reading a continued suspicion of you in these posts since I argued against Clidd's push against you because apparently you were faking your bravado.

Are you saying CKD is using information from a point later in the game to form an opinion from only reading up to before that point...

No?

[OopsieDaisy]

unless everybody who thinks Roden is town would bumrush clidd with me?

I'm not voting Clidd today, don't wanna force another claim and don't scumread him. (Tho I will admit my read on him is weak, I haven't felt the need to look at him in detail and none of his posts rang alarm bells to me)

[OopsieDaisy]

I haven't felt the need to look at him in detail

Would you please take a look at clidd for me? I really think he could be scum. If you agree, we would find scum together.

I'll ISO him once the site is stable again and I have time, issue is those things might not both coincide since I'm away for most of tomorrow sadly

[OopsieDaisy]

Telling no lies, I kinda wanna keep adding these prefixes onto my sentences to annoy CKD more but I know that'd do me no good lmao

[OopsieDaisy]

Yea had a read of Clidd's ISO and agree he's in the treading water group, but also he's been interacting more/has been actively talking to others to shape his reads and that bumps him above a lot of other slots in the game right now for me.

[OopsieDaisy]

Like there's more meat on the bone when it comes to Clidd compared to a Furtive/Greeting (tho Greeting has admitted he's been busy) and the meat smells a lot better to me.

Ok weird metaphor but you get what I'm saying.

[OopsieDaisy]

Daisy... goddamn...

LMAO sorry I hope I'm not teasing the humaneating side of you mr monkey

[OopsieDaisy]

you talk about clidd like he's a piece of meat...

At the end of the day, isn't that what we all are?

[OopsieDaisy]

Also how tf has the Roden vote not gone through yet, HEM was so scared of the consensus he got cold feet and yeeted himself away from the wagon and yet it's now been like 2 days and the wagon still isn't happening?

[OopsieDaisy]

Plus with Karma back and showing his effort I don't see the justification for voting him at all anymore bar I guess townreading Roden so hard it doesn't matter what Karma does

[OopsieDaisy]

I guess the advantage of delaying the day is that Karma gets to catch up (and props to him for flying through it like a champ), but the last thing I want is a last minute scramble to get a wagon through.

[OopsieDaisy]

And knowing Karma, he's never gonna compromise on a Roden vote he's just gonna vote for his biggest scumread and call it a day.

And I'm his biggest scumread (so far).

Dang.

[OopsieDaisy]

I kept thinking roden - tweet - takutai on karma's wagon.

roden's flip will tell.

yea I thought the Karma wagon was like, the easiest default wagon for scum to go for cause it's just an inactive slot you don't rly have to do any work to manufacture a read there. tho I have liked tweet this game since she feels very different from her previous scum venture in 2302, and correct me if i'm wrong but roden's vote was just there because it was the counterwagon to his push.

issue is as much as this makes takutai look bad to me i don't think he's the vote for today, i wanna hear more from em and i want the roden/hem situation solved.

[OopsieDaisy]

are you scared?

scared of karma deathtunneling me? kinda yea. my experience with him in 2302 was him just gunning straight for his scumreads and not letting go until they were dead, and i'm his top scumread. i also know how stressful it is being grilled by him for pages and pages and yeaaa not fun.

scared of a full wagon forming? not so much. sure it's a possibility if people have been this averse to voting roden, but i don't think karma would be able to convince 6 people in 24 hours, and even if he does my flip should give town a lot to work with at the very least.

[OopsieDaisy]

i also dont like Emperor in this game, especially after karmadog caught up sooner than him. is this similar to Emperor from the previous game?

yep, guy was a silent assassin. didn't contribute much in the day whatsoever but went 2 for 2 on vig shots for us and through that was our mvp. as much as i agree that him not giving us much is frustrating, it is within his town meta from the one game i played with him.

[OopsieDaisy]

i think i can be convinced daisy, especially if you're scum.

ok but if you all get convinced i want a cutesy lil sorry from everyone once i flip that's my agreement lol

[OopsieDaisy]

i think i can be convinced daisy, especially if you're scum.

but yea right now i see:

karma
takutai
roden (doesn't wanna die)
furtive (hard townreads roden)
you (if convinced by karma)

being willing to vote me. there's still two more slots left to fill on that ride

i suppose el just wants the day to end so would prolly hammer me? hmm yea maybe i should be scared..

[OopsieDaisy]

we can run him up day 2.

as much as that would be satisfying, he was building up to voting me on the potential day 3 of 2302. he read me wrong that game and if he does decide to hard push me, it's probably just more indicative that karma struggles to read my slot than anything to do with his alignment. i'd be a lot more wary of the people following karma's pushes if they end up bad, including my own.

[OopsieDaisy]

but also i'm making assumptions, there is a world where karma suddenly warms up to me over the course of his final 300 or so posts to read so i shouldn't be waving a white flag, it's more that i'm away tomorrow and so might not be even be around to fight it.

[OopsieDaisy]

Why is this day not over yet

I'm asking myself the same question, tho I think I just laid scum a pretty good plan to get me out today with my most recent ramble soooo rip.

[OopsieDaisy]

18, 432, OD posts my old game, says I have passion. Not sure why she doesn’t understand I am gone for a holiday. I got busy before I left, I posted Thursday morning, thread blew up, I posted a check in post Friday and left. But she is still harping on me not posting. SCUMMY way to justify their suspicion.

I wasn't scumreading you at this point, once you came in with a claim and a white flag kinda response to your push you went from scummy to null. Not sure where you're reading a continued suspicion of you in these posts since I argued against Clidd's push against you because apparently you were faking your bravado.

really?

I am waiting on a few others to comment. Karma especially he usually has a different take on the game that's worth talking about. But for now I think parking my vote on you makes sense.

Actually Karma's quietness is concerning, especially since he's V/LAing soon. Gonna vocalise that worry now and hopefully it'll call him into action :3

I'm like a yo-yo today but I've liked Tweet's reactions to my push when thinking through a meta lens. Obvs, I am putting a bit of trust in Tweet's talk about self-meta (she could always just be doing a cheeky lie), hence why I think she's sitting at null for me, but I've now actually got what I wanted initially out of my push on Tweet, a reaction that means something to me.

Moving on, hey Karma I wanna hear your takes.

VOTE: Curiouskarmadog

you kind of know my stance on liars right? work me through this please. you clearly have had suspicion of me on and off most of the day.

I was concerned that you were being quiet and wanted some takes out of you, so I voted you to pressure your slot into doing something. You reacted in a way that didn't feel scummy to me (the big vt claim), and you weren't going to be able to give any reads past the vt claim post for a while, so I moved my vote away. I know how hard you go on "actions louder than words" but my votes on you and afterwards Emperor were done to pressure inactive slots into giving something to the game.

[OopsieDaisy]

Since your VT post, I've felt that people's reasonings for voting you have been pretty unjustified outside of just voting within claims and so have been defending you a lot because of it. I've still got you as null but because I think scum have been trying to use your slot as a free easy wagon, it does bump you up a bit in my head if I'm reading the actions around your slot correctly.

[OopsieDaisy]

like I have made notes to myself to follow up, like some greeting posts, and couple tweet and clidd posts have rubbed me wrong....and of course my dear OD, I want to meta and see if you said once in our last game "to be honest"...jokes aside, I DO feel like it is a tell..a slight one.

ok so there were no tbh's/to be honest's from me in 2302, but i did find 10 tbf's/to be fair's lmao

[OopsieDaisy]

omg i would love a furtive wagon plz karma i'm begging he's my scummiest read but no one bit last time i tried to get something going on him

[OopsieDaisy]

gonna UNVOTE: roden and VOTE: furtive if the possibility of a furtive wagon is available, that guy's done nothing that's read townie to me and done multiple things i've found scummy. my meta read on him has him playing straight into his scum meta and him pushing for the karma elim here is another stinker. also going to sleep cause it's half 5 in the morning here ah jeez..

[OopsieDaisy]

daisy what are the multiple things you've found scummy

read the sentence after the one where i said there have been multiple things i've found scummy. bad meta read (his quiet and almost standoffish attitude reads terribly compared to how he plays irl) and i don't like the fact he went for karma instead of trying to rock the boat in a meaningful way. as i've stated several times before i think the karma push that ran counter to roden is scummy af.

[OopsieDaisy]

to clarify, irl i find my understanding of furtive's slots comes from how he pushes players. as scum, he's quiet about it. he makes pushes that he sees as logical and doesn't make a fuss/want to rock the boat. as town, he'll very loudly and proudly get himself behind a push and be super charismatic with it. now obvs forum mafia changes how you interact with the game, but you can see why i read furtive the way i do with the irl experience i have.

[OopsieDaisy]

wait i was supposed to be sleeping, doing my disengage thing now

[OopsieDaisy]

Greeting, Roden, Takutai
Day 1 solve

I was thinking Roden/Elements/Oopsiedaisy. At least you got one right.

Oh poggers does that mean you're gonna vote Roden now?

[OopsieDaisy]

Greeting, Roden, Takutai
Day 1 solve

I was thinking Roden/Elements/Oopsiedaisy. At least you got one right.

Oh poggers does that mean you're gonna vote Roden now?

If you've taken the effort to read, yes. Just vote Roden so people can snap out of their lethargy.

I mean I was asking because your vote's not on Roden. Why say you're gonna vote him but then not vote him?

[OopsieDaisy]

I mean I was asking because your vote's not on Roden. Why say you're gonna vote him but then not vote him?

Again, if you have taken the trouble to read, I'm going to hammer.

Yeaa but this is where I see the distancing. If the Roden wagon doesn't happen, you get to avoid having ever voted em and thus dodging any VCA or the like done around the slot's Day 1 in future days.

[OopsieDaisy]

I also just don't trust you to commit to the hammer since you already failed to hammer the slot once.

[OopsieDaisy]

I mean I was asking because your vote's not on Roden. Why say you're gonna vote him but then not vote him?

Again, if you have taken the trouble to read, I'm going to hammer.

Yeaa but this is where I see the distancing. If the Roden wagon doesn't happen, you get to avoid having ever voted em and thus dodging any VCA or the like done around the slot's Day 1 in future days.

The Roden wagon is happening. If you want distancing, look at Elements and Roden.

Wait are you accusing Roden of... distancing himself from his own wagon? I'm confused why is his name there lol

[OopsieDaisy]

UNVOTE: Furtive ain't happening.

Greeting is someone I've wanted a push on for a while, mainly for the treading water style of their posting that has rubbed me the wrong way.

Roden is a flip that I think is almost a necessity at this point.

Gdi I hate decisions I don't know what to do here..

[OopsieDaisy]

i'm just scared of a repeat of 2302's day 1 where i make the wrong decision. if vig didn't bail us out that would've snowballed the game for evil so much.

[OopsieDaisy]

Greeting lied...

its simple.

he said, I think X is scum because of Y

The Y is a lie. He has seen me as town do this. Check out the game I posted.

Isn't this p much the same argument HEM is using against Roden?

[OopsieDaisy]

VOTE: Roden

Lost track of the wagon but Karma setting a pool of three that he was gonna review and then twisting onto Greeting at the last moment makes sense with his reasoning but also that same reasoning applies from HEM -> Roden and there's a lot action around that slot so thus it's a more valuable flip.

[OopsieDaisy]

I'm not gonna tunnel you if this flips scum Takutai lmao, just because I disagree with how you go about a lot of things doesn't mean you become hard scum in my head. We're not in a 1v1.

[OopsieDaisy]

oh yea reads if i die:

i think furtive is a slot that no one wants out, including scum. i'll admit my reasoning is only sound to me, but i read the slot horribly right now.

greeting is another good option, similar levels of inaction to furtive, with the actions themselves not reflecting great on either.

hem is scary, but if roden flips scum dw about him for the next few days.

karma is playing his classic town game i'm leaning town on him now, his paranoia on me and elements reads very well with how he read our slots in 2302.

el is a good egg, playing how i would expect a town elements to. sue me.

gera is a good egg, same as above but less content to back up the read.

takutai is a slot i have no idea how to form a read on. i hated him just picking me and two town reads, then riding that read for the rest of the day, but also no-one else was super interested in pressuring me bar hem so maybe that's actually a good thing? idk mystery slot for me.

tweet is playing very differently to her previous scum game, which makes me like her.

clidd and klick seem fine for now? defo worth investigating later into the game but i wouldn't say they're the hot slots to worry about come day 2.

then there's emperor just like, there. fits his town meta but 0 meat on the bone it's just bone here lol.

[OopsieDaisy]

like emperor is definitely worth getting out at some point but it's such a lhf wagon to go for..

[OopsieDaisy]

I mean the good news is only VTs have died. Takutai kill makes me less sus of Karma and more sus of El/Gera/HEM who were all being paired with me in Takutai's pushes.

[OopsieDaisy]

Hiya

Any thoughts on how the last pages of yesterday transpired and the flips that followed?

[OopsieDaisy]

I don’t feel like the nk made sense. I hardly felt that person presence. I feel like it would of Made more sense to kill you monkey or karma

That's interesting as Takutai was the third highest poster in the game. Was it just that you felt his posts didn't have any content in them? Because imo his pushes were pretty clear cut he just didn't wanna elaborate on the reasoning behind em.

[OopsieDaisy]

I don’t feel like the nk made sense. I hardly felt that person presence. I feel like it would of Made more sense to kill you monkey or karma

Karma I'm guessing survived because of the claim, scum are gonna be hunting to snipe off power roles. That was why Day 1 became Roden VS Karma because those were the two slots we had claims from and we didn't wanna force any other claims.

Monkey's slot with Roden flipping green doesn't look great, and the same can be said about mine imo. Scum can afford to keep us both alive because right now both our slots aren't particularly strong in the game.

[OopsieDaisy]

Pedit: I think it was cos when I was around they weren’t and I didn’t really “catch up” that could have something to do with it as well

ahh ok yea that makes sense, he only rly kicked into gear once the roden vs karma debate was in full swing.

[OopsieDaisy]

But why does Greeting lie? It does not believe that is scummy.

Monkey is selling his Roden lies already, my answer is the same here: External meta rarely factors into my analysis. playing the devil' advocate, having said something similar to greeting, he might just believe you are scum. I absolutely hate his vote just to be clear.

they’re trying to frame monkey with this one right here I guess

if you think monkey is being framed, do you think we should be looking on or off the roden wagon today for scum?

^^this is an open question for everyone, i rememeber hem mentioning that he believes scum was distancing themselves from the wagon, but typically i'm used to investigating the wagon itself.

[OopsieDaisy]

i will say tho, the counterwagon being karma makes me think scum could just be anywhere, so I'm not sure how useful the above question is?

karma with that kill in the night is now my no. 1 townread because i don't see a world where he axes the one person who's agreeing with him in the game, unless it's like a team decision thing. this makes it so that i think both the wagons were town yesterday and so i don't think scum had a bad place to be. bar maybe opposing both wagons in their entirety?

[OopsieDaisy]

also until a better wagon pops up i'm just gonna keep on at my scumread. wanna hear more from this slot. my personal meta read on him rn stinks and it was so hard to get anything going on him yesterday. also i've got furtive/hem in my head right now cause hem sorta applied the pressure and then found an excuse to pull off the pressure very quickly into their interactions yesterday, so i'm wary (posts 659 and 708 are the ones i'm thinking of). however they have experience with each other so maybe there's just something i'm missing here.

VOTE: furtiveglance

[OopsieDaisy]

VOTE: Greeting I'm still interested in this slot.

What motivation exists in order for Greeting to kill Takutai?

[OopsieDaisy]

I rememebr Takutai townlocking Greeting and not being interested in pushing there whatsoever

[OopsieDaisy]

VOTE: Greeting I'm still interested in this slot.

What motivation exists in order for Greeting to kill Takutai?

I wouldn't put too much thought into the night kill

Why not? Scum made a decision I wasn't expecting so I wanna explore the reasons why.

[OopsieDaisy]

The thing is I get what you're saying, because ultimately yes these arguments about perceived reasoning eventually just boil down to WIFOM, but also I can see the scum motivation of you wanting to dismiss conversations around the night kill because focusing on it won't benefit your slot at all.

It shouldn't be the sole focus of my reads tho I get that.

[OopsieDaisy]

@Elements you mentioned that you thought Roden VS HEM was TvS yesterday, does that read still hold true to you now?

(I'm guessing not since you're not voting HEM right now, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on em)

[OopsieDaisy]

I rememebr Takutai townlocking Greeting and not being interested in pushing there whatsoever

curious why you felt like posting this.

Did Tak have the same feeling by the end of the day?

Looking back he did not. He made several posts proclaiming him as a locktown during Day 1 (506 778) but as the day went on he became more at peace with taking Greeting out (1252 1272). Funnily enough I remember 778 very vividly pinging me, to the point where I thought Takutai was somehow informed on Greeting's slot, but I must've missed his change of heart in the end of day fluster.

I thought this info would be important to bring up because Takutai has flipped town and I remembered him townreading Greeting and figured that would be useful in analysing whether a Greeting wagon is something we want or not.

[OopsieDaisy]

VOTE: Greeting I'm still interested in this slot.

What motivation exists in order for Greeting to kill Takutai?

OD, I am not enjoying your lack of logic and/or false theories.

Why do you feel like GreetingScum was in charge of the kill?

You really cant think of ANY reason?

You are smarter than this.

Doesn't everyone get a say in scumteam convos?

Tho as detailed in my previous message, I incorrectly assumed that Takutai was still holding his strong townread on Greeting from earlier in the day when he died. In the world where he was (and the world I thought we were living in), I couldn't think of why Greeting would advocate for a Takutai kill bar the WIFOM reason of killing someone who townreads him to distance himself from the kill.

[OopsieDaisy]

But I quite frankly don't wanna address the more WIFOM-y reasons cause then the logic just falls into a loop. I'm taking the death at face value and looking at who it benefits and who it hurts.