Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[d3x]

But Fuzzywuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he?

Vote:Manz

[d3x]

If Nikanor is afraid of you, than so am I.

And so you should be. For I am the spy that saps your puny SG.

Aside from all that, I find the MM/Manz conversation interesting. Immediately after the Rule had the listed quote, it further said...

Other players may have received role PMs describing other normal mafia roles, including but not limited to cop, doctor, vigilante, serial killer, mason,

role-blocker

,

traitor

,

poisoner

, survivor, miller, and

godfather

.

Emphasis mine. These are clearly proScum PRs.

[d3x]

I would think that scum would be concerned about the town knowing their roles, not town.

I agree on the Scum part, but why would the Town not be equally concerned of the Scum knowing their roles?

[d3x]

Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?

That's an attack or an attempt to incriminate you?

I can see where MM is coming from on the

potential

implication of this question. I do not read any sort of attack here, though. I likewise don't see any direct attempt to incriminate.

[d3x]

Wait. I just went back and reread this interaction and it went as follows...

p8 MM- 'No Scum Power Roles.'
p11 Manz- 'Why does it matter?'
p14 MM- 'This is why I think it matters.'
p15 MM- 'Vote Manz b/c you're concerned about the Town knowing the Scum make-up.'

*disclaimer- These are paraphrases

That doesn't look right to me. You just said that you Voted because he was being 'over-antagonistic towards a player'. To me it reads as a player asking for clarification. You Voted

before

he made his supposedly scummy comments. Can you give me a bit more information about the initial Vote?

[d3x]

Or is that not what you're saying?

[d3x]

I understand and agree. When I said 'you' in my paraphrase of p15, I was speaking in the first person as you. Notice I said 'I' in the same manner in p14. To put it another way, I was saying that you Voted Manz because he seemed concerned about the Town finding out about the Scum roles.

Regardless, my point stands. You claim that he was being over-antagonistic towards you while you were trying to find out potentially beneficial information for the Town. I'm saying that him asking 'why' in the context and timing of the discussion doesn't seem antagonistic to me.

Above you said that you don't think a proTown player would ask 'the question'. The question was 'why'. I am looking for clarification regarding your Vote against him.

[d3x]

Clarification- p59 was directed at MM's p56.

I love how quickly this game is developing!

[d3x]

So to clarify, you Voted him because you felt that his asking...

Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?

...was anti-Town?

[d3x]

I dont like Manz's jumpin on MM for noticing the difference in Mods rules or sample PMs or whatever.

Can you point to where this occured?

[d3x]

That's not the only odd thing about the Vote Count, Zee.

[d3x]

Manzcar is listed as Voting for Fuzzyman and MonkeyMan576.

[d3x]

I know. But you are

currently

listed as Voting for both and it's currently counting as you Voting for both. That seems a little odd to me.

ZEE- I believe the positive Votes are counted against the negative Votes, thus making your net Vote on someone with both would be 0.

[d3x]

I am a little concerned that Raivann couldn't come up with anything concrete in his response to my p81. The feeling I'm getting is Scum trying to get the wagon rolling along without completely understanding the argument. No one was accusing Manz for 'jumping on MM' yet that's what he didn't like about Manz's play and yet he couldn't come up with a single specific instance?

FoS:Raivann

and an

UnVote

for posterity's sake.

[d3x]

Another scummy post from d3x? Where was the first? Where did you point out the first?

I was saying Manz was jumping on MM.

Yes you did. And I asked where this happened. You responded in a generic manner without adding

anything

to the discussion. My 'argument' is that your actions didn't really follow the vein of why Manz was considered scummy. Adding to this is the fact that Manz didn't Vote MM until after your comments, so please don't try using that to justify your comments in hindsight.

I do however like your OMGUS on me. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me on what 'cases' I've been making up out of thin air and why it would be a problem to start a case during the RVS. How else would we get out of the RVS? Is the ScumKmd game the only one where this has happened? I also find it interesting that you're trying to link me to Manz this early.

An UnVote for posterity's sake means that we're clearly out of the RVS and I don't think that my Vote should still be there.

[d3x]

Alright Raivann, let's try this a different way, maybe it's just a terminology thing. How do you personally build a viable case?

And...

Yes, believe it or not MM & d3x, I can read and process information.

I don't know where this came from. Firstly, you were talking to MM. Secondly, I don't think I've come

anywhere

near a line to cross where I'm insulting your ability to read and/or process information. If I have, then I'm sorry. This does not mean that I'm going to back down on my questioning/Scum Hunting you, but I want you to know that there's nothing even remotely personal here. I just think you're acting in a very questionable manner {read- scummy}.

Finally, have you no response to the rest of my p124?

[d3x]

I see what you're saying now. I was calling you out for being opportunistically scummy there. Essentially, I saw a play that could easily be a Scum seeing a negative trend developing on a player and jumping on without needing to understand the case, thus getting it wrong.

The combined with your most recent play gives you a

Vote:Raivann

in my book.

[d3x]

I think you misunderstood what Fuzzyman wrote because I don't really understand what you are saying, MonkeyMan576.

+1

[d3x]

@Mod- VoteCount, please?

[d3x]

@MM- Now that we're all on the same page, what do you think of the original quote in that pyramid? ZEE is saying that he doesn't want to Vote because of the possibility of a quicklynch over the weekend. How viable do you think that is?

@Fuzzy- What do you think of Raivann's read on you?

@cruelty- You've said that RoleFishing Scum PRs is dangerous, how advantageous do you think it is? Do you believe the risk is worth the reward?

@Dizzle- You said that you were awaiting Raivann's justification for his read on Fuzzy. He gave it. What are your thoughts on his response?

@Sweep- Post something damn it.

[d3x]

With that interpretation of how it would go down, do you think ZEE withholding his Vote is questionable?

[d3x]

I don't disagree with your p173, but I do wonder if your feeling is so hardline now, what exactly were you looking for when you said...

I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

[d3x]

Why not the full vote.

Well, as you can see from my p136, I have since upgraded and Voted him. That's not what you asked, though.

I did not Vote at first because he could've said something completely reasonable and alleviated the vast majority of my concern. As he did not do that and continued to act scummy, imho, I Voted him when I felt I had a solid read on him.

I'm not a huge fan of Voting around. Given certain context, I actually see that as a Scum Tell. I like to have a suspect and Vote that suspect once I have a good read on them.

I'm kind of surprised no one has called me out for a non RVS vote yet.

Why should we? I personally don't think it's a bad thing to not have a Vote down at all times. I believe that especially in the early parts of the Day, it can be helpful to sit back and view the cases before committing to one*. While I understand that the Vote isn't permanent, I feel that the power of your Vote diminishes the more you throw it around. If you're bouncing around Voting everyone, you are ultimately pressuring no one.

*Disclaimer- I am not refering to lurking, active lurking, being inactive, or not helping. I am saying that you can watch, follow along, and participate productively in building cases without needing to Vote.

[d3x]

cruelty- Aside from telling us about things that annoy you {and have little game relevence}, how's about answering p168? Or commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2? Or stating an opinion of MM's reluctance to go L-1, but has no problem with L-2?

MM- Dizzle makes a great point. You went L-2 without batting an eye. There are more than one Scum in this setup, I'd assume. How does your play act as a deterent from an early Scum Hammer? It seems like you want to participate on a lynch without taking the responsibility of your actions. Also, if you just Voted him to L-2, why are you heavily entertaining the notion that Scum will Hammer? Doesn't that mean you think Raivann has at least a better than average chance of being Town aligned?

[d3x]

Or commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2?

Ninja'd. Still the other points are valid.

[d3x]

I wouldn't say I didn't bat an eye. I thought about it carefully.

Touche. We can only see what you write and the brevity with which it's delivered. I was just saying that it's odd that you'd be willing to go L-2 but would actually voice a negative opinion about L-1 in the same post. That's all.

I just don't want to give the scum opportunity to lynch without discussing it

Given my statement regarding this in my previous post to you, what are you thoughts?

I am leaning scum on Raivann

Do you think that if Raivann is Scum, his partners would Hammer him early to stifle discussion and in essence silence him?

[d3x]

MM-You say that you want more discussion and that you want Raivann to understand the gravity of the situation. You also say that you wouldn't rule out a Town flip on him. These are understandable points. Do you not have any questions for him so as to make a more secure decision on the player you just L-2 Voted? I

also

find that odd.

There are more than one Scum in this setup, I'd assume. How does your play act as a deterent from an early Scum Hammer?

Third times a charm. Considering you called out Raivann for dodging earlier, I find it doubly interesting that you've not answered this the other 2 times I've asked you. Please do so now.

[d3x]

Why do you think info is bad for the town?

If you're askling a single player, I see less harm in this than otherwise. If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo. You can ultimately set the Town up for some pretty ugly things down the line, regardless of your intentions. If we all weigh in with our Top 3 Town list, we're handing the Scum an NK shopping list. If there are mostly accepted proTownies on each others' lists, then the Scum have a great opportunity to setup a cherrypicked End Game scenario.

For an example on that last point, say that pretty much everyone thinks players A and B are proTown. Player A has some suspicion towards B and visa-versa. The Scum will see that and try to play it up, leaving the 2 of them in the game longer so that in the End Game scenario, they are going to go after each other. I know that this isn't going to happen every time, but it

does

happen.

[d3x]

I suggest that you don't publicly state that one of the reasons you're voting for him is to build townie cred.

+1

to be fair to Monkey, he only asked for one player's top townies

I'm well aware. That's why I said this...

If you're askling a single player, I see less harm in this than otherwise. If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo.

[d3x]

Lol!

[d3x]

Voting me for giving a town read on someone?

Are either Dizzle or cruelty Voting you? Did I miss that? The Vote Count seems to disagree with your sentiment.

[d3x]

@Mod

and all- Please note the sig. I'll be in Arizona for a friend's wedding from Thursday until the following Monday.

[d3x]

Also, Mod- I just noticed that Hero hasn't posted a single time in thread. Can we get a prod/replacement/status update on him, please?

@Fuzzy- Are you waiting for something to happen?

[d3x]

Mod- Has hero responded to his prod? Also, jason said he'd be back by yesterday morning. Can we get a prod on him, please?

@all- I'll hopefully be able to post more on pertinent discussion later this afternoon. I'm still confident with my read/Vote on Raivann.

[d3x]

#1 priority is to get better, man. Rest up and when you can make it, we'll be here.

[d3x]

Is this a typo or am I just unfamiliar with this term?

Mastin is a player notorious for his massive... post length.

[d3x]

This is me, being back from V/LA. I have a few games running atm, so I'm trying to get caught up in all of them at the same time. Thanks for the patience!

~d

[d3x]

you caught up in this game?

Briefly? No, I'm about 4 pages behind. I finished up 2 other games yesterday {both Town wins, yay!} and have caught up to a 70+ page game. Due to the walls of posting, I'm getting back into this one a bit slower. Trust me, you'll know when I'm caught up. Also...

Why were you so quick to ask for a prod on Jason the next day after he was to be back, yet you yourself have posted nothing of merit since your return 2 days ago?

jason had posted once in this game before posting his V/LA due to emergency. My haste to prod him was to make sure that he wouldn't be lurking through the game as Hero, Sweep, and Fuzzy {to a lesser extent} had been doing.

[d3x]

Thank you, prod.

[d3x]

And as promised, you'd all know when I was caught up.

Ok, first things first.

Mod- You're prodding everyone, so I don't have to request that, however, are we replacing Hero? He hasn't posted since... well, since before the 1st Mod said he was going to let you handle replacing him.

Second-

Vote:MM

The short version is I don't like the tendency you've shown for doing something and then saying that it's proTown. Let the Town decide what is and isn't proTown. I'm almost at a Null Tell on this because it'd be ridiculous to be that obvious, but that dips a bit too much into WIFOM for my taste. The long version will have to wait for the moment, I'd rather get some discussion going first.

Third- It's great that we got this extension, but we need to make the most out of it. We're still only 5 days away from deadline. Let's kick the tires and light the fires, ladies!

[d3x]

I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out something as being pro-town if someone is attacking you. It is suspicious if you are just doing it out of thin air.

Well, I agree with you there. I guess the difference in opinion is that I feel like you

are

doing it out of thin air. It's not like someone is listing your moves as Scum Tells and you're arguing that they're clearly proTown. Take the most recent instance. Dizzle asked why you Voted ZEE. Your response was...

I recognized him as lurking, and bringing out lurkers is pro-town.

I wouldn't have a problem if you had said you were suspicious because he was an obvLurker. That's not what you said, though. You said, 'He's an obvLurker and me pointing it out is obvTown'. {<- obvSummary }

Ultimately, it reads to me like you're trying

awfully

hard to seem proTown.

[d3x]

I'm seriously considering that. If he doesn't post before 5:18 PM MDT on the 9th, he's being replaced, and that's the LATEST.

Mod- Not to push you, but he hasn't posted in game a single time. I just checked.

[d3x]

I think it's natural to want to seem pro-town when someone is attacking you.

Again, I don't believe you were being attacked on that point. In the above example, Dizzle was just asking you why you Voted ZEE. Aside from that, wanting to seem proTown and blatantly calling your own play proTown are 2 very different things.

As to you 'attacking' Raivann, you clearly said that you wanted your Vote on Raivann to be 'on record'. It's never really sat well with me, but it got dropped for want of jucier conversation after a few posts. Your p200 reads exactly like the 'bringing out lurkers is proTown' comment. It doesn't help the fact that you end p200 by saying you'd be ok taking your Vote off if the Town didn't want it there.

It feels like you're trying to appease us and tell us why you're proTown instead of showing us. Oh, and you did say...

I already FOS'd him(for avoiding questions, and for calling someone pro-town after only 2 posts, if anything the lack of posting is

lurking

, and anti-town)

{emphasis mine} This wasn't

that

long ago, so I'd be careful saying that he wasn't exactly lurking when it was clearly a reason for you to start in on him.

[d3x]

I didn't even realize I had been ninja'd there!

cruelty- Where did your quote {"the quality of most of the players..." } come from? I just combed over your Iso and didn't find it.

-------------

@MM- I take note that you didn't respond to my entire post. In fact, you spent more time on my afterthought than the main thrust. As this can be written off to a mere difference of opinions, I'll let it slide. As this isn't the first time you've done it with me {see p194 for full details}, I'm still bringing it up.

Your point on lurkers is a valid one, however scummy behaviour trumps lurkers in my book every day. I have not come after you for "every Vote", so please do me the courtesy of not lumping me in with a generic 'they/them'. It also comes across as a tad bit AtE-ey. Just sayin'.

You're even saying some of my suspicions are valid, so I'm not seeing how you can say that I'm seeing scummy things that really aren't scummy. If that's not what you're saying, I retract that last sentence.

On to the lurkers, who specifically do you think needs more attention? How would you suggest we get lurking players to not get 'free passes'? Are you suggesting a policy lynch of LynchAllLurkers?

[d3x]

Ninja x2.

That makes a lot more sense.

[d3x]

if I was trying too hard to seem town, I would be suspicious of the same thing

I am suggesting that you are doing exactly that, trying too hard to seem Town; so much so that you are physically pointing out what

should

gain you Town points.

what's happening is you're trying to isolate things that sound scummy and not looking at the overall picture

Well, they say that the Devil's in the details. Ok, I'll play it your way. What is the overall picture that I should be looking at?

in the abscence of a good lynch target

Are you suggesting that we don't have a "good lynch candidate"?

it's certainly a valid strategy

Here's what concerns me. In my first game {Newbie 782} we did exactly that. The Town decided to lynch a lurker instead and it helped my partner and I to secure a perfect Scum victory. It was glorious.

Gotta cut this short. I'll be back...

[d3x]

I know that mass prods are going out, but I'm seriously concerned here. Hero has never posted in game. Skruffs hasn't posted in a week. jason hasn't posted since Sunday. Fuzzy and Dizzle haven't posted since Monday. Now, this is less than 72 hours, so I'm not too concerned about Dizzle, but Fuzzy hasn't really participated as much in this game. That does concern me.

Thoughts, guys?

[d3x]

Oh. Skruffs is a Ninja.

[d3x]

So I just read over that last interaction we had MM, and I noticed that you are continuing to selectively answer small points in my posts. Why? This time, I'm not feeling as forgiving.

[d3x]

I think you're missing jason.

[d3x]

Sorry.

Mod- I think you're missing jason. In case you didn't see that last one due to it not being bolded.

[d3x]

Isn't it awesome that ZEEnon also left us hanging on a rationale to vote Scien?

Isn't it awesome that you continue to actively lurk your way through this game? Have you nothing to say regarding what

is

happening?

HoS:Fuzzy

[d3x]

Tell me Fuzzy, is it normal behaviour for you to lurk this bad in games? Honest question. Could you please link me to some of your games {Town and Scum}? Why do you feel the need to not participate?

[d3x]

Scien seemed intent on slowing it down.

Can you specifically point to where?

@cruelty- I'm with you. In the least, I think he's being dodgy and he's admitting to it. Further, he's not following through, which is scummy in my eyes.

[d3x]

MM- Thank you. Now, why are you blatantly refusing to answer questions?

[d3x]

I'm going to go backwards in time, with just me. cruelty can list his if he feels the same.

So I just read over that last interaction we had MM, and I noticed that you are continuing to selectively answer small points in my posts. Why? This time, I'm not feeling as forgiving.

Lets start easy.

if I was trying too hard to seem town, I would be suspicious of the same thing

I am suggesting that you are doing exactly that, trying too hard to seem Town; so much so that you are physically pointing out what

should

gain you Town points.

what's happening is you're trying to isolate things that sound scummy and not looking at the overall picture

Well, they say that the Devil's in the details. Ok, I'll play it your way. What is the overall picture that I should be looking at?

in the abscence of a good lynch target

Are you suggesting that we don't have a "good lynch candidate"?

it's certainly a valid strategy

Here's what concerns me. In my first game {Newbie 782} we did exactly that. The Town decided to lynch a lurker instead and it helped my partner and I to secure a perfect Scum victory. It was glorious.

Gotta cut this short. I'll be back...

You didn't respond to anything in this post, it was completely ignored.

On to the lurkers, who specifically do you think needs more attention? How would you suggest we get lurking players to not get 'free passes'?

You answered one question of this batch, so I left it off.

Again, I don't believe you were being attacked on that point. In the above example, Dizzle was just asking you why you Voted ZEE. Aside from that, wanting to seem proTown and blatantly calling your own play proTown are 2 very different things.

As to you 'attacking' Raivann, you clearly said that you wanted your Vote on Raivann to be 'on record'. It's never really sat well with me, but it got dropped for want of jucier conversation after a few posts. Your p200 reads exactly like the 'bringing out lurkers is proTown' comment. It doesn't help the fact that you end p200 by saying you'd be ok taking your Vote off if the Town didn't want it there.

It feels like you're trying to appease us and tell us why you're proTown instead of showing us.

This isn't a question, but you didn't respond to it, so I'm listing it. You put something vague down about my suspicions being valid, but 'people' are seeing scummy things where there aren't scummy things. You can't have it both ways, MM. Either my suspicions are valid {you're acting scummy} or people are jumping at shadows {you're not acting scummy}. If the later is true, then you haven't even begun to adress my issues with you.

Also, as these aren't hidden, cleverly disguised to trip you up, or make you think they're rhetorical, how are you...

not refusing to answer anything

...? You were...

not aware of the question

...? Bullsh!t. You've already played that card. The point is, you can answer these, but it's about the third time it's happened with me alone.

[d3x]

...the hell? 3 pages in 2 days and we have a new player? I'll be rereading and catching up now.

And in case it's not been pointed out by anyone, the deadline's tomorrow.

[d3x]

Well, without going to longwinded into it, I feel that MM is still a viable candidate for the lynch {I'm not as proTown leaning on him as some}. I think that your {Amished's} case on Scien is pretty damning. With deadline looming so close, the information on the table, and the fact that Scien's reaction to MM in p485 doesn't sit too well with me {it feels to disingenuous to say that the guy with a wagon just as strong as his is Town}, I'm going to

UnVote/Vote:Scien

. We need a flip.

[d3x]

You're only L-2 with 12 hours to deadline, I think anyone who came in and lynched you this early would have hell to pay.

[d3x]

Well, less than 12, I'm still 1/2 asleep.

[d3x]

@Amished- To answer your direct question to me {re: missing part of a post}, yes, of course I have. The issue I have with MM's 'missing' parts of posts is that he came out strong against Raivann for dodging and then immediately dodged himself. That's hypocracy. Yes, he was talking to a player that we now know was Scum, but with the rest of his play, I'm not sold that it wasn't bussing once the Town had turned against Raivann.

Also, during the discussion between cruelty, MM, and myself, he was responding to small portions of large question heavy posts directed solely at him. That's not 'missing parts of posts' it's closer to strawmanning. I had to ask these questions two and sometimes 3 times before he would finally answer them. That's why I was making a big deal of it.

---------------------------------

@CM- Point being, still a lot of time.

---------------------------------

@All- The End of D1 has too many people sitting on the sidelines for my taste. Just saying.

[d3x]

sitting on the sidelines not posting

This. I'm also not talking about the last few hours, I'm refering to the last few days. Skruffs hasn't posted since last Thursday.

[d3x]

Yeah, I actually unVoted MM and Voted Scien a while back. In p489 to be specific. Be wary of that Vote Count.

[d3x]

1 hour and 30 minutes to deadline?

What was the point of this, MM? The Mod just posted the countdown.

[d3x]

Jason and Skruffs are going up on my scumlists.

Why? Skruffs has been MIA since last Thursday and jason has been ill with LA for weeks now. What are you getting at?

[d3x]

Who said anything about a No Lynch? Scien very clearly said that he was going to Hammer himself if it came down to that.

For all following along, they'e both at L-1 now.

[d3x]

Well, one thing's for damn sure. Tomorrow is going to have a hell of a lot of information to go over.

[d3x]

IGMEOY MM.

[d3x]

[/quote="MM"]But you're ignoring Scien's buddying of Raivann.[/quote]How does that have anything to do with him believing

you

are Scum?

[d3x]

Stupid freaking tags... grumble.

[d3x]

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

[d3x]

If you're assuming Scien flips town, why did you vote for him?

Are you freaking kidding me? There are no pretenses about his flip. It will or it won't. I'm saying 'assuming that he will' because in his last post he was coming from a Town perspective. Unless he was f*ing with us {which serves no purpose as we're about to find out anyway} I'm assuming he will flip Town.

[d3x]

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?

HoS:MM

I'd Vote you if would count for tomorrow tonight.

[d3x]

Amished, I would also like your thoughts on MM's post lynch twilight play.

[d3x]

I stated my reasons for Voting him when I Voted him. Your questions was based off of misrepresented information that I spoke to when I replied to you.

And thank you for continuing your long trend of dodging my questions.

[d3x]

Amished- p609

[d3x]

I actually have a full week without a hospital appointment (none until next Monday) so I will be fully caught up by day2's start.

Does this mean that you are not caught up now?

[d3x]

Answer my question MM. I'm not moving forward until you do.

[d3x]

So you don't think it's possible he saw he had backed himself into a corner and his gambit didn't work?

This...Is...Irrelevant. We are about to see his flip, so what does it matter? I want to know a player {who championed a case against a lynched player} what his thoughts would be assumig the guy we just lynched wasn't lying about his flip. He has already been lynched, so I don't see how your position makes any sense. So what if he did paint himself into a corner? He's dead and we're about to find out. I want Amished's opinion before the night falls and we may not

get

an answer.

[d3x]

MM- Answer my question.

[d3x]

[quote="Amished]not sure why coug has you at dvx[/quote]I'm not sure either, but I'm not sweating it. I know who he's talking about and so do others.

Lately drizzle has been looking worse, and I'm neutral on JasonT

This gives me pause as well. The interaction here makes me nervous, no matter what Scien's flip tells us. What exactly chain lynching are you refering to? The immediate dislike for MM? The statements of Votes onhim starting tomorrow morning?

exploring that miscommunication of "not sure" etc..

I've actually eard the expression before and while it didn't immediately pop into my head when I read his post, I buy his explanation of it.

Is there anything more that you'd like to know that I haven't answered?

I'm good with this, but I'd still like to hear back re: MM's post lynch play.

[d3x]

MM-

p609 I questioned Amished.
p610 you reacted negatively and came after me.
p614 I asked you why asking my question was a problem {for you specifically}.

Allow me to rephrase, why did you have a negative kneejerk reaction to my asking Amished about the lynch?

[d3x]

I'm not seeing it, Amished. I was not confused in my p600. jason was talking about his suspicions of MM and Raivann. MM came in and asked about Scien's buddying. My question was, what does that have to do with it?

{disclaimer- The following is a hypothetical situation, I didn't have much of a read on either participant that I can remember}

It's like saying MM and Manz were arguing at the beginning of the game and I had a Scum read on Manz. Then Manz comes in and says "what about Hero's lurking"? Yes, Hero was lurking, but that has nothing to do with my read on Manz.

I fail to see how the buddying between 2 players had anything to do with jason's read on MM. That was my question.

[d3x]

Argh! So I was in the middle of a post when this locked on Monday. I remember what I was writing about, but the exact verbiage won't be there.

Anyway...

@Amished-

there's a clear answer for it (and had d3x replied with said answer, none of this would've started).

Yes, there is a clear answer for it. The problem is, I don't have a Town read on MM. I do not think it would be wise to ignore our leanings on players just because something seems obvious to us. As I pointed out earlier, you made a compelling and strong case against Scien, but I don't buy your defense of MM. I'm not going so far as to say you are suspect for making it, but when he flips {if he flips} we may need to revisit that.

@MM- I clarified in p660. I am not looking for you to agree with me {per p656}, I'm looking for an answer. Now please, answer.

As promised,

HoS:MM

. I am in agreement with Amished about needing to be careful about tunneling MM today, but that doesn't change my position on him thus far. And judging from what was just posted, I think we're going to need to be

very

careful indeed.

[d3x]

We also need a post or replacement for Skruffs like post-freaking-haste. It has been almost a week since his last post. He was technically up for prodding/replacement before the lynch came and went. With that said...

Mod- Please prod and/or replace Skruffs. Thank you.

MonkeyMan...come out and plaaa-aaaay...

[d3x]

Well, in this case the day just started like an hour ago; so it's likely he hasn't been on to check it yet. A PM would be nice though.

While I agree 100%, that should only be taken into account if everyone's prodclock resets at Dawn. He should've been prodded before the Deadline came up, thus my asking for a prod now.

Also, would you care to expand on this...

I think China's buddying towards me and scummy behavior are well worth a vote as well.

The buddying I'm onboard, but the 'scummy behavior' is pretty generic. If you've already outlined it and would be happier just pointing to the post, I'd accept that too. I'm only pressing this because you said

I want every vote to be explained in your own words and opinions.

By that rationale, I could Vote MM and say it's because he's scummy.

Also, I'm more than a little weirded out by the interaction that's taking place right now. MM commenting on the No Kill, his revealing himself as a {possibly fake}PR in p1 D2, and the back and forth between you two along with your rather cavalier defense of him yesterday? I don't like it.

MM- Along with the answer I am demanding you present in your next post or I upgrade to a Vote, I'd like a list of completed games you've had a PR in. Considering the circumstances, I don't think that's unreasonable.

Amished- You said earlier that it was hectic and he may have missed the question. What are your feelings about it now?

[d3x]

And I am for him revealing the information at the timeline laid out above.

[d3x]

Like Scien, I am a man of my word.

Vote:MM

As for those posts, I'll list all of the times I've questioned, rephrased, or simply demanded an answer to the exact same question. If you'd like me to break it down for him again, just ask.

p614- I ask the question he has yet to answer.
p623- I accuse him of dodging said question.
p628- I tell him to answer again.
p642- I tell him to answer again.
p6653- I listed the post I had originally asked him in and broke down the relevant posts leading up to it {just in case, as you said, it was too hectic}. I also rephrased the question for him, in case the timing was confusing.
p667- I pointed to p660 asking for an answer.
p675- I taunted him to see if he'd bite and finally answer me.
p682- I gave him an ultimatum that he has since ignored, along with my question for the 7th time {if you include posts he's made without answering said question, it's more}.

Can you dig it? I said,

can you dig it?

~Seriously, no more Dizzle.

[d3x]

MM- I want to understand something. Maybe we're not on the same page here. Before I ask followup questions to p694, why do you think I'm Voting for you?

[d3x]

MM- Did you read the post you quoted?

[d3x]

Amished-

I was going to claim immediately after I saw that night result because I wanted to rub it in the scum's face; but with you talking about you having night actions that (most likely) condemned somebody; I waited a bit.

Have you ever done this in another game? It seems very counter-intuitive as a proTown PR to out yourself. If you have done this before, could you link us to the instance?

[d3x]

Because this will be the third specific time it's been listed and the 8th {I think} time I've asked you to answer it. Why can't you just go back to the post I've been referencing for the last 80 posts?

Fine, I'll be nice about it.

Please, answer p614 or p653.

[d3x]

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?

Allow me to rephrase, why did you have a negative kneejerk reaction to my asking Amished about the lynch?

[d3x]

I agreed with you. I wouldn't call it a knee jerk reaction.

This makes no sense. Let's put them back to back.

d3x - "Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?"
MM - "I agreed with you."

d3x - "Allow me to rephrase, why did you have a negative kneejerk reaction to my asking Amished about the lynch?"
MM - "I wouldn't call it a knee jerk reaction.''

Is that what you're trying to say, MM? I'm not wanting to put words into your mouth, but damn if I can figure out what and why you're trying to say here. I'm not asking whether or not you agree, I'm asking you why you reacted negatively to my questioning of Amished. Please answer this.

Also, time for the followup questions I promised earlier.

I'm not avoiding your questions.

Then what were you doing? Are you saying that you never knew what my questions were {as suggested in p697}? If so, why didn't you follow the posts I provided? You said in p703 that you read my posts but couldn't figure out the questions. p614 was 3 lines long. The first was my question. The second was my HoS. The third was my declaration of intent to Vote you. How could you not "tell exactly what the question is"? <= Serious question. I want to understand where the disconnect is coming from so as to not repeat it as often.

Moving on, you accuse me of wanting everything to move on my timetable. That is itself ludicrous. If I hadn't hounded you to answer, when would you have gotten around to responding to my question {which I still don't believe you've done}? I would also like to know what you think my 'abrasive manner' is. If you could point out instances, that'd be great.

Also, have you finished researching yet?

--------------------------

Amished- p707 is right on the nose. That is what he has failed to answer.

Also, I knew I was missing something from you, but couldn't remember what or where. I just tracked it down.

Also, you were around during that initial MMan/Manz debate. Did/do you think that MMan was town *just based on that fight*?

If you go back, I think I was one of the only players to not say that he thought it was TvT in any way. My questions and contributions were actually markedly slanted towards Manz's side {particularly in p54 where I felt something was not quite right}, but I dropped it pretty much as soon as Raivann came in with his ridiculous comment on the fight {see p80 and p81}.

[d3x]

Amished - Are you still reserving judgement on MM until he has made his claim {or more to the point, given us the knowledge he claims to have}?

[d3x]

While I'm not wanting to have the two of you stop the back and forth, I'd like the other players to get in here and be a bit more active as well.

Anyone who hasn't posted yet, please do {disclaimer- I'm well aware the thread's been only open 24 hours}. Topics can revolve around the MM case, the CM case, the Amished claim, the MM claim, or other notable issues that are at hand.

@Fuzzy, I'd especially appreciate to hear from you. I skimmed the games you linked to and you seem very much more involved than in this one. Why? Unfortunately, one was a Scum role and one was a Town role, so it equates to a Null Tell at best. You said earlier that you aren't the biggest fail of this game and I agree. However, I don't think that should be a badge of honor.

@MM- Definitely, I was just making sure that you remembered and it didn't slip under the cracks. Also, why would you assume that your 'RB' stopped the NK? There are many possibilities and yours is only one. Afterall, according to Amished, there was no NK because he Doc saved himself. You did say that you were only 85% sure, but still...

[d3x]

Amished said he was targeted

Interesting. Can you point out exactly where this happened?

[d3x]

MM- Would you care to respond to p720?

[d3x]

MM- Re:p739, you know that if you are targeted {in almost every instance} you are not told that you are targeted, right? He's not saying that he knows he was targeted, he's saying that he's almost 100% sure that the NK attempt came at him and because he "self-protected", there was no NK. The porblem is,

if

both of you are telling the truth, there is no way to know that CM is Scum or Amished was the target or someone else did something else to stop the NK {including the Scum setting up a false protect claim by submitting a No Kill}. MM, did you receive confirmation that CM tried to do anything last night?

[d3x]

it was post 684 where he "was certain" he was targeted.

I know. Not to be a d!ck, but I was asking MM for a reason.

I think it will help in the hunt in the long run if we have all the possible scenario's laid out in an organized manner.

As the whole thing is WIFOM, I don't see how it

could

help. There are also almost an infinite amount of permutations that could have happened and what this is doing is serving to distract from actual Scum Hunting. I'm not trying to be mean or sh!t on your parade, but how does this help us to catch Scum? You said that it doesn't hurt, but neither does talking about the Dodgers' chances at the Series. The fact is, it doesn't hurt {possibly}, but it doesn't really help either.

---------------------------

MM- How do you "know" that you successfully "RBed" someone?

[d3x]

Without quoting it directly {as that would result in a modkill}, what did it say? I'm asking you to paraphrase it as closely as possible. An option {to be safe} would be to write a draft, send it via PM to the Mod, and see if the wording is ok to post without getting in trouble.

[d3x]

Everyone stop.

UnVote

If this is true, we need everyone and I mean

everyone

's reactions before moving forward with a lynch on MM.

[d3x]

@Fuzzy- Unless there's a stray UnVote I'm unaware of, it's 2 for MM and 2 for China. jason and cruelty are on MM while Amished and MM are on CM.

[d3x]

I feel that it would serve as a distraction because there is no possible way to know what scenario happened without outting more PRs which I believe is a bad thing. It's a whole big ugly batch of WIFOM otherwise. Scum Hunting without a scenario for why there was a NK last night is good enough, IMO. We didn't need one to catch onto Raivann, afterall.

[d3x]

What with MMan's claim, I believe Jason a lot more than I do MM.

1) Town roleblockers are extremely rare, so I think he's just a scum roleblocker
2) The way that MMan instantly chose to claim that JasonT was paranoid (unlikely role speculation = scum)
3) 747. With me claiming self-protect; he can't know that he roleblocked anybody. I'm not ruling out MMan attempting to bus China, but I think MMan is definitely scum in this situation.

+1 huge.

Consider this like a cocked vote pointed at you, MMan.

Lol. I'm planning on Voting him the second that we've heard from everyone.

Also, I want to be absolutely clear here.

No one else Role Claim!

Seriously guys, we just offered up like 2 or 3 PRs for

one

potential Scum {assuming jason isn't paranoid, which I

highly

doubt}.

[d3x]

MM- Did you mean to quote me there {p769}? I don't get it.

[d3x]

Lol. Firstly, I think everyone needs to lookup the definition of WIFOM. To my knowledge, it means claiming that someone wouldn't do something because it'd be too obvious. Half of the cases where it's called in the last page and a half make no sense.

Secondly, no one is going to lynch anyone. We have almost 2 weeks before the deadline and while I'm not advocating that we wait the entire time, we need more information before we do anything. Let's say that we lynch MM. Who's the 3rd Scum? Without everyone else discussing we have almost nothing to move forward on. We need everyone to discuss and remain active until said time... and then we lynch MM.

[d3x]

This exact thing has happened in another game I'm in.

If this game is ongoing, this can be considered discussing it. Stop before you get yourself modkilled.

You and him (I think d3x unvoted) are the only ones on him

As I've said befoer, cruelty has his Vote on MM unless I missed an UnVote. That puts him at 3 right now {L-3}. I'm not asking anyone to UnVote, but we need to be sure that we all know the Vote count before piling more on.

[d3x]

Lol @ p809.

[d3x]

CM- It was just a

giant

sized ScumSlip. Don't worry about it.

[d3x]

I know exactly what you said, MM.

[d3x]

There you go, guys.

That's

WIFOM.

[d3x]

Why do you keep failing to answer that?

You're surprised that he's not answering things? jason, did you read the end of D1/start of D2?

[d3x]

Alright, I'm going to come right out and say it. I think anyone pushing for a lynch of MM this early is trying to stiffle discussion {read-antiTown}. We're barely 24 hours into this day and we have no leads on the remaining Scum {assuming there are remaining Scum}. Those Voting MM {excluding MM himself} why do you want to end the Day so fast?

[d3x]

I also don't feel that I'm making the biggest failure to play here.

[d3x]

Why do you think info is bad for the town?

If you're askling a single player, I see less harm in this than otherwise. If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo. You can ultimately set the Town up for some pretty ugly things down the line, regardless of your intentions. If we all weigh in with our Top 3 Town list, we're handing the Scum an NK shopping list. If there are mostly accepted proTownies on each others' lists, then the Scum have a great opportunity to setup a cherrypicked End Game scenario.

For an example on that last point, say that pretty much everyone thinks players A and B are proTown. Player A has some suspicion towards B and visa-versa. The Scum will see that and try to play it up, leaving the 2 of them in the game longer so that in the End Game scenario, they are going to go after each other. I know that this isn't going to happen every time, but it

does

happen.

[d3x]

[grumble]picked both Scum with my first two suspects...would've gotten a solid W for the Town...always target CM if I don't have any other solid leads next...[/grumble]

Seriously, though. Great game everyone! It was freaking fun as hell and crazy furious. Both the Dawn and End of D1 along with Dawn of D2 were crazy! Lots of fast posting to keep up with.

jason- rest up and feel better man.

Thank you for the replace-o-Mod, SC.

I look forward to playing with all of you again very soon!

[d3x]

MM- Why weren't you answering my questions? I'm still very curious about that.

[d3x]

Fair enough. You can't say it didn't work, though.

[d3x]

In general. I know CM in real life, so I know how he works. If you read back a few of my games, I go after him at random times because I know a bit about how he thinks. It would've only been a matter of time before I started pushing him in this game as well. I think that may have forced him to drop a Tell.

It doesn't say anything in his PM about investigating 'clean' but I know that's an SK thing. If he had been investigated, would he have shown 'Innocent'? That would've really boned us.

[d3x]

Prof. Plum all the way, baby! There should be a Clue Mafia. Just sayin'.

[d3x]

I'm so freaking /in that it hurts.