Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[Scien]

If Nikanor is afraid of you, than so am I.

Vote: d3x

[Scien]

Other players may have received role PMs describing other normal mafia roles, including but not limited to cop, doctor, vigilante, serial killer, mason, role-blocker, traitor, poisoner, survivor, miller, and godfather.

I think he listed out the vanilla then said that there might be special roles in addition to the vanillas. There were scum power roles in the possibilities.

[Scien]

Only scum would be concerned about town knowing their role makeup. Not saying we do, but certainly suspicious.

Jumpy monkey is jumpy. You are voting him for what is likely the same reason as why he was questioning you. You don't see that? Whats the difference between your suspicion of him based on role fishing, and his suspicion of you for questioning about roles?

Ah! Answered in preview:

Town rolefishing is scummy, Scum rolefishing is not. Anyone should be able to see that.

Could you tell me why you believe he is rolefishing? I didn't get that impression, but would like to hear why you are thinking that.

For I am the spy that saps your puny SG.

No! Spah sappin' mah sentry!

[Scien]

I'm going to butt in here and ask a few questions at Monkey. I don't fully understand his claims at the moment, and would like to get a better feel for him.

Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?

This was the question that sparked you two off each other. Right off the bat he generalized what you are calling 'scum rolefishing' and turned it into rolefishing in general. What do you feel about this generalization?

If he is townie, do you think he would be likely to generalize like that? Or do you think its more of a scum trait?

I think you said that townies should be concerned with general rolefishing, and that your rolefishing was different because it was localized on the scum. You really can't see a townie getting concerned when they see any sort of rolefishing going on? You think that your question didn't deserve any kind of attention?

[Scien]

^^ those questions are directed to MonkeyMan.

[Scien]

@Manz

What are your current thoughts about Monkey's concerns? Do you think his swift attack/defense means something to you?

[Scien]

@Monkey
Ok, that's fair, and I kind of see where you are coming from. However, right from the get go, he threw your rolefishing in the box with general rolefishing. You can tell by the way he worded his first question to you.

I could see a cautious townie generalizing to be safe. I could also see a scum doing what you are suggesting, by deliberately generalizing your actions in order to base an attack off of. Could you tell me what makes you think the scum condition is more likely? Do you believe that the townie condition is not possible?

[Scien]

Attacked? Do you think that the single question he asked you before you voted him counts as an attack?

Do the questions I am asking you now count as an attack?

[Scien]

I don't think I agree that his intentions were to incriminate you. But then again, sometimes I am too optimistic for my own good.

I think I am done with questions for you for the moment, thanks for your input.

I have questions out to Manz, and I would like to hear his take on things as well to get a feel of him next.

[Scien]

Hmm, fast thread.

I meant that he was being over-antagonistic towards a player trying to get information that would be useful to the town.

I don't get it. Yes the question made it sound like he suspected you. But it didn't seem to me like the question itself was supposed to antagonize you. I think you are blowing things up and have been for a while at this point.

His response was quick and defensive and his vote was OMGUS.

Hmm. His vote was OMGUS? Off of one question? I think that you have caught this tenancy to blow things up too. You really think that his vote was OMGUS?

I ask who was going to give you this information that would be benefical to the town? Was scum going to come out and say hey here I am?

Looking back would you claim that his original question was of a role fishing nature or just a possibilities type question? Do you think that it would be wise for scum to lie about something in thread that could easilly be disproved by asking the mod, or a more careful reading of the rules? What makes you think that asking the town about role possibilities is meaningless?

I currently see the MonkeyMan576 and Manzcar argument as town vs. town, with MonkeyMan576 leaning the more likely town.

I have to agree with this statement. Things have been blown up out of proportion, but what this really comes down to is Monkey asking about possibilities. He wasn't fishing for actual roles, he was wondering what was possible. If he was scum he would have inside information about what roles they had and probably wouldn't be asking in thread. It is possible he would ask such a question to look pro-town by pretending to not know about scum setup, but this would be pretty sneaky, and the play so far would not suggest that he would pull this. (Anyone have meta on him in other games?)

[Quoted Monkee's claim that the question was contrived to incriminate] This was my thought too while I read that post of his.

Eh? Really? You thought Manz's question was intending to incriminate? I would like to examine this... why do you think that. How is the way he worded it different than any other question that someone who is suspicious of someone else would ask?

By the way for everyone's knowledge, I would be voting Manzcar because he is my biggest suspect right now, however I want discussion to carry on freely rather than a mass of suspicion of Manzcar. I think it's too early to confirm that he is scum, and that we should wait for the rest of the players to post.

Hmm this is interesting as well. Not 7 posts of yours before this, and roughly 20 mins you had said you thought the argument as town vs town. You changed your mind? What made you do so?

So where is your case against me. I have asked for it but you still can not provide a case other than to say I am scummy.

/facepalm...try reading the thread...

I too would like to see you concisely list it out. I think that it is likely weak, and if you go back to quote original phrases, and pull your thoughts in, it will likely help the town out. I know that I can go back and read it, but I would like to see your current accusations as kind of a sanity check against how your griefs have evolved.

No, what I am doing is disallowing a potential quicklynch while allowing discussion.

Eh with two votes on him, I don't think that potential is very high. You think that it is higher than the benefit of additional pressure would get you?

[Scien]

Well, maybe Raivann should be the one to lay out the argument for Manz instead of me, then. I think I've already explained it enough, and there is some reasonable concern as to Raivann's understanding of it.

Well he can if he wishes. If he does I would like him to back up his griefs on you as well since he said he suspected you in almost the same breath as he said he suspected Manz. People shouldn't just go around tossing out suspicion without talking about it.

I would still like you to briefly list out you case. I think both you and Manz are misrepresenting each other, and this has got me curious as to if this is intentional or not.

[Posts his griefs]

This is part of the reason why I would like to see a condensed Monkey case. I believe that you have been misreping in places as well, and I would like to see where he believes that is the case.

[Scien]

LOL... you guys are exhausting.

I'm waiting for Zee to get back. I think I have questions to him out already.

[Scien]

First off forgive me if any of my concerns were answered while I am catching up. The below is my thoughts as I catch up:

I was saying Manz was jumping on MM. Your arguement makes no sense. Didn't they vote each other and argue the last 4 pages? This whole 'single specific instance' is BS.

I had to look back because I didn't remember where he set the vote. But it looks like it was page 4 post 83. I think its a bit of a misrepresentation for you to say in post 123 that they voted before the huge argument. Not sure if it means anything though.

I'm also suspicious of [D3x] and Manz for making up cases on people out of thin air right after and in the RVS.

I would like to see this. Can you quote the posts that you are concerned with?

Adding to this is the fact that Manz didn't Vote MM until after [Raivann's] comments, so please don't try using that to justify your comments in hindsight.

Oh! That's why I was a bit concerned at Raivann's first quote. You did say that Manz jumped on Monkey. But this entire thing started from a Manz question that didn't seem to "jump on" Monkey to my eyes. You don't think so? Which posts do you think count as the most extream examples of jumping on? Why did you think that they voted immediately and then fought afterwards? When you realize that Manz didn't vote right away, what is your take on the lateness of his vote? Positive in your eyes or negative? I could see reasons for either, but why would you say it is positive or negative for the lateness of his vote?

FoS:Raivann and an UnVote for posterity's sake.

Eh? Why not the full vote. If your unvote was because of RVS... why not place your vote on your suspicion? (I understand this is hypocritical of me to ask, but I want to see your mind). BTW I'm kind of surprised no one has called me out for a non RVS vote yet.

Fuzzyman has posted twice with a total of 28 words. How can [Raivann] possibly have a town read from what he's said?

Ditto.

Yeah, he has only 2 posts but both his posts were confident and to the point and on those points, I agree. Notice I didn't say prob or confirmed, i said leaning. Gut read. Why you even trippin?

Hmm. So, confidence is a townish read to you? Other than that the rest kind of make sense. Although I do have a bit of a question about one of the quotes you gave of Fuzzy's:

So what you're doing is expressing a dislike for him without a willingness to take responsibility for his lynch. [votes for Zee for non-voting]

So. Fuzzy just voted for Zee because of one action. Similiar in my eyes to the way that dx3 FoSed you for one action of not explaining a concern. What makes one person "come up with a case out of thin air" and the other have a position that you think is townish? Just the fact that one was targeting you?

Happy birthday. I explained this in post 142.

Thanks! As for your 142:

The problem with the question you asked is that instead of specifying your question to say 'mafia roles', you generalized and made it just 'roles', which also infers that he is rolefishing. So you put his post in a negative light, perhaps on purpose, perhaps unknowingly.

Yes, that is part of the issue of this whole mess I agree. He did generalize, and it will be hard to tell if this was intentional or unintentional at this point I agree. However I believe this post makes it sound like you were certain one way or the other, and I would like to ask you if that is the case:

I think his intentions were clearly to incriminate me.

This was my thought too while I read that post of his.

I fully realized this while I wrote that. Although I feel the argument could potentially be town vs. town, Manzcar is in actuality my top suspect. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you.

What you are saying now makes sense. However again, when you said it originally it sounded different than what you are saying now:

Reading through some more of their back-and-forth posts, I currently see the MonkeyMan576 and Manzcar argument as town vs. town, with MonkeyMan576 leaning the more likely town.

Not trying to give you too much of an out, but this might be because I am putting too much meaning into town-vs-town. What do you mean by that term. I am having an issue about how you can think an argument is town-vs-town, and have one of those 'town' be your cheif suspect.

[Stuff about the lack of a vote on Manz]

Fair.

[On Zee's color flavor]That is so annoying to try to read.

Heh, I thought about doing the same thing... I was going to claim a color at start and use it as flavor. Decided against it though because I am a stick in the mud. I was so going to be Mr. Green.

---

In light of current game state, and due to the fact that my vote is still RVS, I am going to want to revote:

Unvote: d3x

Vote: Raivann

I believe that vote is the fourth (L-3) judging from last vote count.

The town read is suspicious (even if I am dittoing everyone).
The jumping on d3x while feeling Fuzzy pro-town is suspicious.
The mistake about Manz vote placement, is curious.
The unexplained first dx3 "scummy post", is curious.

[Scien]

[At Raivann] Who are your top 3 scum suspects at this point. And who do you think are the top 3 towniest players?

Why ask about the townies? Who do you think it serves more to tell the town about your townie feelings?

[Scien]

Why ask about the townies? Who do you think it serves more to tell the town about your townie feelings?

I think any info is good for the town. Why do you think info is bad for the town?

LAWL. Wasn't your fight earlier today about generalizations? I didn't say information was bad for town. Moreover I don't think this specific kind of info is totally bad for the town. I think that certain information tends to help scum more than townies however.

One of these types of information is town rankings.

Think of it this way. I say A B and C are townish in my book. What does the town gain from that? They know that I am likely to not question them as hard... they know that I might be buddying them... they know that I might be nodding to my partner if I am scum. But all of these are rather weak.

What does a scum gain with the same information? They know the person saying it is town. They have info about where that guy is going to be pressuring over the next few days. They can target townies that don't have scum on their lists. The townies that have nothing but scum on their lists are going to be their best town assets to let live. Effectively giving the scum easy information about how to confuse the town the most.

I argue that asking for peoples townish feelings is more beneficial to scum than town. Hence my question.

If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo. You can ultimately set the Town up for some pretty ugly things down the line, regardless of your intentions. If we all weigh in with our Top 3 Town list, we're handing the Scum an NK shopping list. If there are mostly accepted proTownies on each others' lists, then the Scum have a great opportunity to setup a cherrypicked End Game scenario.

Yep. This.

So let me ask you in a different way Monkey. Do you see what I am saying? What information did you hope to gain from Raivann by asking who he thought was town? How do you think it would benefit town?

Giving town reads on players is protown and my scumdar is operating at maximum effectiveness.

One, there are other points against you, and your brevity is not helping.

Two, how the heck is giving town reads on players protown?

Anyone can do it. Also scum committing to lying saying they have scum tells on someone is typically more dangerous for them to do than telling us they have town tells on people... its easy to find new 'scummy' stuff to change the scum's mind later and pursue a townie they said was town earlier...

However irritating a townie by weakly pursuing them earlier using 'scum tells' is going to catch them attention, from the very least their target.

I don't get why you think that giving town reads is protown... How so?

[Scien]

I've noticed that your saying 'meh' and 'eh' less than the game we played where you were scum.

Heh, you should see me in real life... I meh and eh more there than I do as scum here LOL.

Ok. I'll give you a chance to reread. My vote stays until I start doubting my read though.

As for your link, I'll give 'er a read tomorrow. As it stands currently, I still think it is a bad idea to ask for townie lists... One question in the meantime though. If you think its a good idea, is the only thing holding you back the fact that you haven't responded to Monkey yet? Or are you withholding for other reasons?

As it stands at the moment... I think that your views on people suspecting you are negative... and your views on the people saying they might not suspect you are positive. Don't know what to think about that...

(Fuzzy points elsewhere... You think this is townie.
D3x points you... you think scum.
Chinaman unvotes you... you think townie.)

---

I assume some of my suspicion is based on the fact that you have not been keeping up... and so have just been commenting on what is extremely important to you (self-preservation), which is inherently neither townie or scummy. So I am interested in your views as you catch up. However, until that happens and your plays change my mind, my vote stays.

[Scien]

Requote for clarity:

Heh, you should see me in real life... I meh and eh more there than I do as scum here LOL.

Heh, you should see me in real life... I 'meh' and 'eh' more IRL than I do in mafia, as scum or townie. LOL.

[Scien]

Welcome Skruffs.

For example, Scien's first couple posts in the game were completely focused on getting MM and M to attack each other more. He put out no opinion of his own - even when he did start agreeing with people, he never built onto the suggestions or opinions others were building on. This leaves him absolutely Scotch Free if those cases later turn into mislynches. That's scumplay.

I would like to see where you think I was doing that. At the time I believed they were both blowing stuff up, and I was asking questions to see if I could figure out a motive for that. I believe I have already expressed something to that regard in this thread, effectively 'putting out my opinion'.

As for me ignoring the other people reading meaning in that initial fight, since I believed that both people were town vs town, and were arguing about stuff that they didn't even say initially, any meaning derived out of it was faulty anyway. I was not going to subscribe to cases build using arguments about things that didn't even happen.

So you are basically saying here that the fact that I didn't participate in the blowing things up, and get involved on one side or the other is scummy? What if I believe that it was town vs town, and I was just looking at the motives of the sidelines, and verifying my thoughts on MM and Manz every once in a while? Which is more scummy in your eyes? Getting involved and taking a side in an argument that is just a bunch of hot air, or staying out of it and looking elsewhere?

Just as a final note, to reiterate, I think that fight was town-vs-town. That is my opinion, and always was.

Raivann is being under scrutiny for no reason that I Can see except that SCien just 'decided' to vote him.

That is an interesting observation. I was the fourth vote. There is a fifth on him now. You single my vote as his only scrutiny? Why am I targeted there? A good deal of the town is suspicious of him. What's your motive for incorrectly trying to single me out here?

Besides that, I have listed my concerns, and other people have mentioned their griefs. How is that not scrutiny?

I don't understand this point of yours...

[Scien]

I singled your vote because your vote came immediately after Zeenon 'passed' on answering the question Raivann asked about why Zeenon thought you were 'null' if your behavior was striking him as both town AND scum. The implications seem pretty obvious to me.

Okay... I have not been on him because that was an obvious miswording. I don't even understand how someone can be both townie AND scummy... and naturally assumed that this was not his intended meaning. How can someone be both?

I'm not deliberately trying to defend him here, I am trying to defend myself, but I am making an assumption about what he meant by that phrase. I think he was trying to say that my questioning was inherently neither pro-town nor pro-scum and suggest that he had not made up his mind on me yet. In other words, he screwed up the conjunction, he meant OR, not AND. By me making this assumption that he misworded when he made that statement, I guess I don't see what I should be concerned about. What does him using 'and' imply?

You are suggesting that that statement was setting up some kind of chain lynch scenario? How? I just don't see it. If I don't see it, I can't be concerned about it.

Should I be concerned that you might be doing this chain lynch suggestion here? I think so.

Now back to you:
Singling me out is fair I guess if you have concerns with my play. But do you honestly think that my vote is the only scrutiniziation that Raivann is receiving? Have I not explained why I was voting? Have not other people? I don't think its fair for you to say that there is no legitimate concerns that I have of Raivann, and suggest that I have not made them known.

Also, in the past two posts, you have suggested that I should have either attacked your predecessor, or Monkey if I was townie, then followed it up with I should have attacked Zee. Why all these suggestions about who I should have attacked? I've asked questions to all you are pointing at. Even have some serious ones out to Zee at the moment I believe. Why do I need to be so aggressive for you to believe me town?

[Scien]

I don't even understand how someone can be both townie AND scummy

I don't even understand how someone can appear both townie AND scummy.

[Scien]

He's the Manz replacement. It just isn't announced yet.

(I'm replacing MAnzcar bytheway. Chinaman posted before he officially replaced Sweep so I imagine it's okay if I do the same, I have my role and everything)

[Scien]

Are you still catching up Raivann?

[Scien]

If he said you were both, you should have been asking this question, to him, yourself. That's part of why I'm suspicious. Why weren't YOU suspicious?

As I have said before, I made an assumption that was the most logical thing he really meant. I believe I know what he was trying to say, and what he was trying to say was not suspicious to me.

This is making me Very suspicious. First: We are lookign for people who are both town and scum, because ALL players are going to try to act town. Scummy players try to act town while still getting pro-scum results. So ZEEnon saying that you were both pro town AND scummy SHOULD HAVE made him say, "And that's suspicious", instead of disregarding it in the same sentence.

Eh... you're right. Him saying that doesn't make sense with his second statement saying it was a null read. What could explain this? Oh! His first sentence had a mistake in it. Not trying to be too condescending here, but I don't think he is saying what you think he is saying. What I believe he is saying is not suspicious and didn't deserve a question from me.

How did you get a chain-lynch scenario out of that? And who are you referencing to? Zeenon was actively distancing/derailing from you there, Raivann could be conceptually setting up a chain-lynch scenario, but I do not believe that that was his plan at all sinec neither he, nor zeenon, nor you put more than a sentence towards that line of questioning before I came in. I believe that forcing the idea of a 'chain lynch' scenario is distracting from the situation as it really happened by trying to put malevolent impetus on Raivann, who is currently at the highest number of votes.

Huh? I thought when you said that one-two mafia lynch you were suggesting that he was setting up some kind of scenario that would result in a chain-lynch. What do you mean one-two mafia lynch? I'm confused apparently.

I don't think Raivann was setting up a chain lynch either, I think we have something we don't understand with each other here.

As for the rest of the above, I don't understand that either, I think its all stemming from my not understanding what you were trying to get at with 'one-two scum lynch'.

[1]The only chain lynch that could be suggested would start with Zeenon and end with you if Zeenon is guilty. [2] But since the only questions you have asked Zeenom have been actually directed towards teh MM and M quandary, [3] it seems very, very clear to me that you do not think that Zeenon could be mafia. If you did think he was mafia, or at least, [4] if you were town and thought he was mafia, you would have taken more of an interest in him suspiciously, rather than playing him off of the other players. Concordantly, [5] if you were town and saw him buddying up to you, shouldn't you be concerned?

[1] Yep that's what I was implying. Are you suggesting that the town does that? Are you confident enough of your read on Zee and I that would suggest that you think this is the correct course of action?

[2] I argue that you are incorrect. My questions to Zee were about things he has said, and thoughts he has expressed. Every question directed to him so far were to get him to explain his views, and claims.

[3] The hell? You are wrong, he could be scum. That's why I am asking him to explain his inconsistent views on certain areas. I am suspicious of him.

[4] Who was playing him off other players? I was asking him questions about the views he has expressed in game. Every question was something that he said that didn't make sense. He is the one that is looking at the fight you are crying about. I am looking at him looking. How am I playing him off anyone?

[5] Yes, if I saw were he was buddying I would be concerned. I haven't seen him do it yet.

I believe my line of questions is based almost entirely on you and Zeenon being too comfortable with each other this early in the game. There *should* be subconcious distrust, however, you two seem to be working as a team to goad other players into being more outspoken.

Ah, I see. Because we both ask questions at other people

I've been doing the same questioning to him. You are stretching pretty hard man.

I believe that Raivann is coming under scrutiny, and when the scrutiny on her has dropped off, I will probably ask them a few questions of my own. The fact that you are voting Raivann does not Automatically Validate the idea that you have concerns of them, though, it only suggests that you are willing to lynch Raivann. The concerns you are posting as the reason for your vote; I am not analyzing them at this moment because I am focussed on something that I see as much more rewarding (if I am correct).

You said the only scrutiny on him was my vote. That doesn't make sense. That's why I am asking about it. You say there is scrutiny on him now? Has your thoughts changed since you said this:

Raivann is being under scrutiny for no reason that I Can see except that SCien just 'decided' to vote him.

First off, nothing has really happened in his direction since then. Second off, I listed why I voted when I voted. As have others. I have informed everyone of my concerns, and have explicitly told him and you what they are.

Oh, thinking about what you mean, you are saying that if I am scum, the reasons I give for my vote don't matter, because I just want the lynch? I suppose that is true to some degree. But my listing of them counts as scrutiny. It gives him a way to counter my attack. It gives others a way to see my claimed motives. I don't see how you can claim that you can just write off my points against him. If you believe me scum, and the points are answered, how can I maintain good townie image while maintaining my vote? If I am townie, my points are used to drive discussion, and to verify that my vote is well placed.

I don't understand. My points and other's points count as scrutiny.

then the next course of action would be to look at how the other players interacted with the first two players who were in teh conflict.

LAWL. What the heck do you think I was doing when I was questioning everyone about their freggin views on the fight? I wasn't asking about the fight in particular, but about their views. What on earth is going through your head?

Players who appear to have been trying to inflame the argument between two players 'commonly believed to be town'

Again I would like to see where you think I have done that. For the second time. I was inflaming nothing. I was examining people participating in what I thought to be a town-vs-town fight from the get go.

Players who continually try to keep the focus on two players who had a lot of players voting for them (if not at the same time) are much mroe likely to be scum than players who 'move on' and continue to look for scum. You have to LOOK for scum, not try to FORCE people to "be scum".

I was looking for scum. That's why I was questioning other people's views. I was not fanning any flames. You are wrong.

I believe, personally, that if the other players can disregard my speech patterns, which always seems to incite votes, enough look at you and Zeenon's interactions with each other, they will see where I am coming from.

Meh, I sure the hell can't.

[Scien]

Before you made that post the pressure on me was merely Skruffs...

You are saying my defending myself is scummy now? What was the alternative... to not address concerns directed at me? How is that working for you...

[Scien]

Also, Rai. Are you caught up? You effectively told me to wait asking you questions because you were not caught up. I was waiting to continue our discussion until you did so. So far, you have been coming in and making the same self preservation posts.

(We can add the vote on me because I have suspicions on him, and the agreeing with Skruffs so far because he seems to be favorable towards Rai to my earlier comment that you think anything against you is scummy and anything positive towards you is townie)

This does read like scum hopping on a wagon to me. Sure he has posted his reasons but it reads like he doesn't really believe them.

I believe them. I want to discuss them with you. I was trying to give you some time for you to catch up.

Would you like to address some of my and the town's concerns here? Here are mine, I think the rest of the town was just harping on one though:

The town read is suspicious (even if I am dittoing everyone).
The jumping on d3x while feeling Fuzzy pro-town is suspicious.
The mistake about Manz vote placement, is curious.
The unexplained first dx3 "scummy post", is curious.

How can you have had a town read on Fuzzy when he made two posts?
Why did you think that Manz voted Monkey before your post in 123?
What was dx3's first scummy post in your eyes?
Why do you think the play of dx3 is scummy vs Fuzzy's play before post 125?

These are the reasons I am voting you. I would like to discuss them with you. But I was under the impression you were catching up. Apparently I was wrong, and I should have been pressuring you more for answers. Would you like to talk now?

[Scien]

sigh... that last quote block was me.

[Scien]

All I meant was that if he is town then the way he is behaving is hugely counter-productive. Could probably have been more clear.

Agree. Him talking about the town's concerns would help.

Raivann?

[Scien]

How can you have had a town read on Fuzzy when he made two posts? Answered already.

Eh, I'll give you that you answered. It still seems strange after your answer however, and it didn't clear my concerns. Sorry for not pulling it out of the list of my current questions to you.

[1] I didn't look when Manz voted. I know MM voted Manz early then Manz voted MM, then they both unvoted each other. But to tell truth the whole argument was kinda boring to me, I might have posted without really knowing who was saying what. I knew MM made his post about poss. scum roles then d3x and Manz argued with him about it.
[2] Didn't you agree with MM that I should summarize a case on Manz?

[1] Manz voted MM much later in that whole discussion, and I'll give you that it was boring. I mean dang, it was boring to me too. That's why I was looking elsewhere at that time. I guess my question was designed to point out that it didn't seem like you were following the game. If you were truly bored, that could be a reason why you were not doing so. Could you tell me why you think that discussion bored you?

[2] Yes. I believe a more accurate representation of what I said however was, if you are going to come in and toss suspicion towards both party's you should say way you are doing so. Here I'll quote it for everyone:

[To Monkey] Well he can [post his case on Manz] if he wishes. If he does I would like him to back up his griefs on you as well since he said he suspected you in almost the same breath as he said he suspected Manz. People shouldn't just go around tossing out suspicion without talking about it.

What was dx3's first scummy post in your eyes? I screwed up here, I went back and read d3x and that was only scummy post i could find, hence my unvote. I was thinking there was somethin in the posts where he was questioning MM, but yeah there wasn't.

This is a completely valid answer. I give you town points for admitting a mistake, and admitting that you actively went back to check for backing. You didn't try to build a weak scum case or anything.

Why do you think the play of dx3 is scummy vs Fuzzy's play before post 125?
d3x was for his case against me, but I have changed my views on d3x.

Hmm. That's almost fair too. Why did your views change?

---

Actually your answering so far helps a bunch. I would like answers for my d3x question as as well as why you were bored at game start. I am willing to unvote if you cooperate here.

Would you support a Zeenon lynch, Scien?

Hmm. I have questions to him, and he has been lurking recently. I think he is my next target for scrutiny if you answer my last two concerns above. So I have to say yes. In fact let me

FoS: Zeenon

not answering my questions, and lurking.

[still catching up with posts after 259 my thoughts on those later]

[Scien]

[Mastin post]

I don't think I see anything in there I want to question about. Most of it seems to be in line with my thoughts. I think that you are very strangely positive about me, and it could be buddying, so IGMEOY, but thats a minor grief. Get well soon, and keep on the meds lol.

I have not quoted anything as I got accussed in my last game of Mastin posting... eep

Yes you do deserve a Mastination award there. I think I have gotten a few of those in the past as well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems like a somewhat random, blatant and desperate attempt to get a lynch started on someone else or at least to gauge the possibility. I'm fairly certain that Raivann is scum but I would still like to get the opportunity to get these last couple of days for Raivann's "defense" and further discussion. If anyone agrees, perhaps they could unvote.

I am aware of this possibility as well, but there is something in his last set of answers that is giving me a feel that he truly is behind this game. I guess the main thing is him owning up to a mistake that more than one person has called him out on. I think I am willing to look elsewhere at the moment. I still want my last round of questions to him answered before unvote though.

I'm not having fun.

Aw... man... don't go modkill yourself. Jeze.

[Scien]

Behind this game...what exactly does that mean? That he's giving a full effort? That you now think he might be town?

No. Sorry. I was suggesting that he is not really caught up. This could be seen as a cause for much of what I have been taking as scummy actions. If he is just merely behind, I'm willing to give him a shot to correct it.

Does him being behind make him more likely to be town? No. But it doesn't mean much of what I was thinking made him scum move to null tells. That's why I have new questions. Want to make sure my new read is correct.

Is he giving a full effort? No. He should fix this, but not giving a full effort isn't necessarily a scum tell. And I believe his recent addressing of town concerns is helpful.

If you're town, defend yourself and find the real scum. If you're scum, defend yourself and find a townie to lynch or a fellow scum to bus.

Agree. I think you should play. No sense hiding behind a mod kill. You can save yourself. Do it, or die.

[Scien]

But it doesn't mean much of what I was thinking made him scum move to null tells.

But it does mean much of what I was thinking made him scum move to null tells.

I suck at posting.

[Scien]

Saying that the Manzcar discussion was "boring".

It was boring. Manz generalized what you were saying, and I believe it was due to townish concerns. You stretched his meaning, I believe for townie concerns. The only think I got out of that is that you both are willing to fight for your concerns. But the actual points you were raising on each other I think were pretty much 'meh'.

Hence boring. Other's people's reactions with the situation at that time however were more interesting.

possibly trying to derail the Wagon with a Zeenon wagon

There is no wagon yet. I just want my questions answered. Where is Zeenon anyway?

giving Raivann "town points" for defending himself better, when he is clearly still behind on town points overall.

I gave him points for admiting a mistake. It would have been just as easy to come up with something of d3x's and called it scummy to justify his 'another scummy post' claim. Instead he owns up. Seems ok to me, and removes one of my criticisms of him. Townie points awarded. Or scum points removed... however you want to phrase it.

It's like saying someone is a good baseball player for batting .240, because he was batting .180 before.

Heh. I never said he was looking town now. More that he was looking more neutral these days.

Let's use your analogy. If our team is mostly batting .300, he was batting .100. He answered some questions, and removed a couple of my concerns. That raises him to batting .200. My votes not off him, because I want him to answer my new questions. When he does, that will most likely bump him up to .250 (the fuzzy townie read is still kinda negative in my mind). At that point there are people under .250 I want to look at and he is not worth my vote anymore.

[Scien]

My bad. I'll be more careful.

[Scien]

Uh wut?

[Scien]

Woah. Number one, would that end the day?

Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this?

BTW I was aware of the rule. I was hoping it would be ignored... and he would play.

[Scien]

Thanks for the replace StrangerCoug, and sorry to hear about your problems Josh if you read this.

But for the new mod, can we get a prod on Zee? I think we are at 5 days now?

Thanks.

Still want to hear from Raivann too.

[Scien]

Both in line with what I suspect. I hope I didn't feed them to you. Please catch up on the game and participate. It looks like it is going to be awesome.

Unvote

Vote: Zee

Get the heck back in here and answer my questions/participate.

[Scien]

Lurking is when you are able to have access to the site and don't post.

LoL. How were we to know if your computer was broke or not. Even when you come in and tell us that's why you have been gone, how can we know that you are truthful. For all I knew you were keeping tabs and not contributing. In that case I needed to pressure in order to get you to talk.

I know you are saying you have more points against me coming, and that's fair, but coming in and acting like I was misleading the town because of a fact about your personal life I couldn't have known is just ridiculous.

My vote was only to get you talking again, and answering my questions. It stays until you do those things.

[Scien]

I too am around... even if quiet...

I have questions out to Zee, as well as a vote. I really want to talk with him, too bad about the computer problems.

(I really do mean that by the way... if I had computer problems it would be like a shot to the gonads... so I feel ya)

I would love to hear the case on me and clear up anything... but I would also like to examine why he thinks that I was "deliberately misleading the town". Especially since the point that he uses to back it up is that I was saying he was 'lurking when I was obviously having computer problems'.

How would I be clairvoyant enough to take advantage of computer problems I didn't know about? Could I not just see that I had questions out to you that were older than 5 days and they have not been commented on?

What makes you so sure that what you observing is scum and not townie?

[Scien]

BTW Dizzle. That point you asked about was directed at Fuzzy. It doesn't matter at this point though... I don't know how a town or scum, could be happy about an eventual modkill if that modkill flipped scum. So it was probably a bad whiff.

[Scien]

Bad news: I had my computer die.

Bad news: This thread is a curse for mods. Good news: Apparently the players are making it through ok.

Hehe.

[Scien]

Deadline is tomorrow unless we get an extension. We will no lynch if there is no majority. We need a lynch.

Request deadline extension

Revote: Zee

I was voting to pressure you to talk. I know you have comp problems, but we need all the help we can get. And the silence is not helpful no matter what the cause.

Not to mention I think your positions were inconsistent before, hence the questions to you.

[Scien]

I'm around... just got back from a trip to my college town for a home game. It was on Thursday, so I took Friday off and didn't get anywhere near a computer until just now.

I'll catchup tomorrow, and start posting again. I'm not in the best of moods right now... my car is slowly biting the dust, and has developed a new symptom.

[Scien]

Ok, a pre-word. I have a lot of catching up to do, and I am a bit netorious for long posts. This is going to be my reactions as a catch up. I will probably do this over multiple posts for your sanity.

---

Those voting Zee, what are you reasons?

I have questions out to Zee about what might be inconsistencies in claims near begin day. He had been absent from thread for a while, at the time I knew not why. I voted to get answers, then he shows up and claims that I am manipulating the town by suggesting that he gave a legitimate reason to be gone and I called it lurking anyway. However I don't believe he ever told us why he was gone until that point. How can I manipulate a fact that I don't know? That was a deliberate jab at me that made no sense. Add that to the questions.

I assume that he has addressed my questions around this and addressed the questions towards the beginning of the day, but I haven't got that far yet. So I'll comment/question more when I get there.

[Questioning MM's plays]

I don't have a problem with this, and he does need some scrutiny. However, I want to ask the town a question here. His very first play was to ask about scum power roles. Is that something you would expect a scum player to do? I understand the benefit in it from a scum perspectve, don't get me wrong. Does MM seem like a player that make a play like that right off the bat? I don't know anything about him, but his play so far would suggest to me that he wouldn't. What does the town think? That point alone has me doubting he is scum at the moment.

That gets me caught up to page 16. I do kind of agree with Skruff's that I'm surprised no one tried to bring in the new information of Rai's flip yet. I'm also surprised that Scruff's is the one to bring this up, after he seemed to have such a hardcore defense of Rai.

Meh, still catching up...

[Scien]

We have time... let me catch up...
If only for the value of my comments before I flip.

[Scien]

Oh... I am not as close as I thought I was... lol.

Carry on.

[Scien]

Nah... I thought that was L-1. Was asking for no hammer until my next few posts. I am perfectly fine with getting put at L-1 and in fact would self hammer if we were facing me or no lynch. Actually I kind of think we should have someone at L-1 at this point. Even if its me.

Sorry I'll do less explaining myself and more catchup.

[Scien]

If Zeenon is active lurking that supersedes any suspicion I have of MM.

Woah wait... lurking trumps suspicion? Why do you think this? Is your suspicion light on MM, or do you think lurking in general is worse than what you think are questionable plays?

[Comments about Rai's iso 15 and 17]

While its all well and good that you can catch suspicions off of these, everything you have listed there is WIFOM, it needs to be backed with more concrete evidence in my opinion. I assume you do this in more of your catch up posts. If you are building a case on me purely because of this, then I am going to ask why you think there is not more hard evidence to look at in this game. But we will get to that after I catch up more I guess.

FOS: Scien

Zeenan brings up some good points and I'm starting to reconsider the Raivann/Scien sumpair theory.[/quiote]
If you are going to FoS me at this point, I am going to have to question you about it. Everything he has brought up so far is WIFOM. He might back it up later for all I know... but at the point of time that you FoSed me, he had not. What makes you confident enough in the current WIFOM argument to switch suspicions? What's going through your mind?

4) I am on Zeenon's townlist

Nice, although he didn't say why you were townish yet. How do you expect town to just go 'Ah, that means you must be town'. There is no backing here.

[quote="MM]Right now I would support a scien lynch. In fact,VOTE:

No offense but this sounds like it is still based on Zee's WIFOM comments. Was your case more than this?

I state that I think the argument itself is town-vs-town, not necessarily the players.

First, thanks for answering my questions. It was suggested you were ignoring them (I don't think by me, as I thought you were catching up). Your first answer was strieght, and if I have time (which it looks like I am lacking) I'll go back and see if that clears concerns there. Your above answer doesn't make sense to me, and therefore I still don't know what you mean by town-vs-town.

How can an argument be town-vs-town, and there be scum making it up? What does it mean for an argument to be town-vs-town? I thought the argument was just information, and when you applied alignment to it, you were suggesting your thoughts on the participants... you don't agree? Please enlighten me (no sarcasm there, I really don't understand).

The fact that you and a few others make the mistake of labelling it as lurking rather than inactivity makes me very suspicious.

Again. I personally didn't know about your issues. Of course it is going to be assumed that you are not having issues. In the absence of that information people are going to assume that it is lurking. Its not that big of an assumption to make, and we have more information now. Who is manipulating your absence after you told us why?

Oh, and

Unvote

since you addressed my questions, and I don't really find you scummy I suppose.

Why in the bloody world would you want for Amished to not give his case on him!?

This is obvious. He is building his case, and doesn't want to have Amished bring similiar points. If he does, then Zee will be accused of parroting, which will sidetrack my supporters, as I don't feel at this time Zee has been behaving scummy, but you would still be on your crusade against him even after he posts his case.

BTW, why do I have supporters again? I find it real odd that several people seem to have such a strong read on me. I have mentioned this before, but I think it went by unnoticed.

Why is it Scien voters vs. MM voters already?

QFT. Everyone is suspect.

This really gives me the impression that he felt the need to do some last minute bussing in order to attempt to make Scien look better. Not only that, but Scien didn't comment on d3x's post #105 about Raivann even though he commented about the two posts right after it. The ignorance of that post seems very suspicious since he happens to comment on other posts referring to Raivann later on when more suspicion builds up on him.

Derail a wagon that you are pushing in order to bus? I suppose that is possible. Still WIFOM by the way. What makes it more likely than leaving a bus wagon you are pushing, and then going to a townie target? As for the post comment let me go back and look. Uh, it appears to me that post 105 was a post to try and get someone to comment more, what was I supposed to question again?

The fact that Scien voted me for being inactive over other players that hadn't posted in a longer time period is questionable.

Fair. However I had questions to you. And they had been unanswered for a while. I wanted them answered. I could have continued not pressuring and hoping you would come back to answer them, but a vote helps more.

Yes, that's it. Now that I think about I am not as confident as I was before that Scien is scum, and hopefully after I do my re-read of every player plus a summary I will be able to judge my number one suspect. As for now, my number one suspect is Scien.

I know this a weak tactic on me, but I get the feeling I am the lynch for today. I would like to point out to the town that he is starting to convieniently questioning his read, as pressure builds on me. This is not through discussion, this is in the magical period of time where he was building his case. He was not having exchanges with me to change his opinion of me.

It doesn't make him scum, but it needs to be examined.

The second interview explains some of this I see now. But when I flip town, I think this needs to be revisited a bit anyway.

Scien's early posts are way too aloof for a townie.

Welcome to a day 1 post, in which the townie has made up his mind that both players were exaggerating and blowing things up. I wanted to look at the interactions of outside parties with the big fight during that time. I didn't think me participating with the main fight would have helped.

I would fully expect a townie to be able to identify with one or the other in the argument.

I was getting a vague town-vs-town feel out of the argument. And when I say that I mean I think the alignments of the participants were town and town, and they were over zealously exaggerating each others comments and making things more important than they were in early day. Much more interesting to see why people would side with one side or another during that time.

probably waiting for one of them to make more of a slip and hop on them for that.

And yet I didn't, in all that exaggerating, heated argument, I found nothing? If I wanted to pick a side, I could have. Trust me.

Scien says that Raivs "fuzzy = town" scumslip makes sense, but said slip is the first reason why Scien votes for Raiv. This is all in the same post, which makes it especially damning in my eyes.

Had new questions to him, and he was addressing questions. This was a good thing. Keeping him doing it as opposed to lurking was a motive here.

Huge coaching in this post. Leaves himself an out in case Raiv does what Scien views Raiv *should* be doing to get himself out of a lynch.

[/quote]
I wanted answers, not a blind lynch. He needed prodding to get answers, as opposed to playing emo kid.

Amished post here deserves more comments from me, and I will come back if I have more time... but I want to go ahead and hit the rest of the pages before coming back... due to needing to get as much info out in as short amount of time as I can... besides with my lynch looming, it is more important to get my views and concerns out rather than trying to defend my past plays. (Not that I won't try, I just need to do some other stuff first)

That was page 18. Moving on.

[Scien]

Amished is right about my self-hammer comment. It should be regarded as a null tell. You don't even know if I will do it anyway. You need to look at the rest of my plays to make up your decision.

[Scien]

We do still have a ZEEnon post on the subject to look forward to.

What are you waiting for at this point? Wasn't his interview what you were looking for?

Either way, if Scien is lynched and flips scum or town, I'll have a better read on MM.

When I flip townie, I should say, be very careful about what that means. Scrutinize everything, even your own feelings about what a certain flip means.

Scien being very active till he gets some pressure makes the Scien lynch make more sense.

Come on lol! It was the Missouri/Nebraska game and tickets landed in my lap on Wednesday! How could I not pass that up. (BTW, I know its unprovable in thread, but the last time I looked at the thread was probably Wednesday morning, before I left. IMO I was not under a lot of pressure at that time.)

Please don't hammer the one person that you know for sure is town.

In your opinion, which is worse for the town. Losing a Vanilla townie (claim BTW) and gaining information about everyone's interactions with him, or saving a townie but not having as much information going into tomorrow? A no lynch is much worse than a townie lynch. Don't get me wrong, I will be waiting until deadline to do it, as anyone on my wagon gives you guys information. But we DO need to lynch someone.

Out of me or MM? I would vote MM. I don't think his initial play suggests scum. But when people try to question it does seem hard to get information out of him. My vote goes there unless we need my lynch.

I think we need someone at L-1 for safety sake still.

Vote:MonkeyMan

[Scien]

Since I didn't unvote on a single line above... Like a big idiot.

Unvote
Vote:MM

[Scien]

This is going to be horribly long and I apologize in advance.

Scien's early posts are way too aloof for a townie. [...] To phrase in another way: especially in the Manz vs. MMan early back and forth; I would fully expect a townie to be able to identify with one or the other in the argument. However, Scien is playing wiffleball with both of them, not taking a stance, probably waiting for one of them to make more of a slip and hop on them for that.

I pulled out everyone you said had pointed out similar. First, why would a townie have to pick a side. What if the townie thought both sides were wrong. What if he had suspicions, but wanted to let the argument play out while he looked elsewhere? WIFOM defense here I know, but while I was aloof there was another motive for it, and you claiming that one is more likely with the information you have is... well... incorrect unless you truly know what I was thinking at the time.

You made a "good logic vs good logic", "bad logic vs bad logic", "good logic vs bad logic" comment somewhere before I remember. I think it was bad vs bad logic there. One side was trying to force more meaning out of generalizations that they probably should have been doing. The other side generalized, and thought that the other party was saying things they weren't. They were overly obvious about this, I think they were doing it for protown motives. The alternative in my mind is scum vs scum, and I don't think that was a likely play so early. Especially when most the town seemed to take a side, and the way it was going it would have likely been one or the other. I just don't see scum doing that. I still believe town vs town there. My current vote is just a them or me kind of vote.

if you are worth your salt as a scumhunter (and I hope you are), you will *LOOK FOR CONNECTIONS TO OTHER SCUM*.

Could you do that with two people you think town? What would you do in that case? Would you look at other people?

Therefore, I really point you to ZEEnon's 388. To point out the extremely good connections between Raiv and Scien, here's the relevant quotes that I 100% agree with (or come close to, if not 100%. Where I'm not 100% I will note).

I still hold a lot of that is WIFOM. What makes you think the scenarios described there are more likely than the scenarios that suggest that I am a townie?

Oh! You quoted. That will make it easier, thanks heh.

Raivann's Isolation Post #15:

probscum=Zeenon,MM

I support either a Scien or Zeenon lynch.
Vote:Scien

Within a span of, wait for it, ONE post, he completely turns around from naming me as his top suspect, to voting Scien. Just like I stated in my analysis of Raivann's Isolation Post #12, I think this is the time that Raivann would DEFINITELY start to bus as mafia, since he had at least half of the players suspecting him majorly. The fact that he just names Scien as a suspect and votes him just from one post Scien made is extremely suspicious to me, making Scien pop onto my radar immediately after seeing Raivann flip scum.

Raivann's Isolation Post #17:

This post of Raivann's just makes me laugh. Like seriously! What goes on in this guy's head?

"I'm going to ask my number one suspect if he wants to switch with me to my number two suspect!"

To be honest, "Would you support a Zeenon lynch, Scien?" makes me feel even stronger conviction that Scien is mafia. Sure, you might argue that scum wouldn't be that obvious about their partners. But then again you would also argue that scum wouldn't be obvious about themselves, but clearly Raivann contradicts that statement since he obvious to the extreme.

That's it for the Raivann post-by-post analysis, stay tuned for more!

As scum, what's the *only* reason you would ask your #1 suspect if he would back you up? Scum talking to a townie that way clearly isn't going to work (and he (raiv) didn't ask the question to ZEE); but you could expect somebody *who is aligned with you* to back you up. That's a huge nail in Scien's coffin, but there's more that hasn't been looked at (to my knowledge): Scien's (and everybody's) referencing to Raiv.

This is still WIFOM. What makes it more likely that Rai is a partner that spontaneously left a wagon gaining steam to bus a partner, rather than a scum that was OMGUSing a person that was pressuring him vocally? Both are equally likely in my book, and yet people seem to be building cases off of it here. Interesting?

ISO 12: Scien says that Raivs "fuzzy = town" scumslip makes sense, but said slip is the first reason why Scien votes for Raiv. This is all in the same post, which makes it especially damning in my eyes.

Eh, as I said before, getting him to talk was paramount. Up till that part he was playing a lurking game. Commenting but not really participating. Him answering questions, was better than him not talking. If he gave me any kind of answer I was likely to 'praise' him for it by thanking him for an answer, and asking new questions. As long as he is answering, he is furthering my goals.

ISO 14:

One, there are other points against you, and your brevity is not helping.

Two, how the heck is giving town reads on players protown?

Anyone can do it. Also scum committing to lying saying they have scum tells on someone is typically more dangerous for them to do than telling us they have town tells on people... its easy to find new 'scummy' stuff to change the scum's mind later and pursue a townie they said was town earlier...

However irritating a townie by weakly pursuing them earlier using 'scum tells' is going to catch them attention, from the very least their target.

I don't get why you think that giving town reads is protown... How so?

Huge coaching in this post. Leaves himself an out in case Raiv does what Scien views Raiv *should* be doing to get himself out of a lynch.

Again, getting him to answer my questions was paramount. If I have to tell him to behave so that he actually addresses my concerns, it is better than just sitting back and letting someone who might honestly not know what I am looking for flounder and not answer me.

I was still questioning him, and did not answer for him, I just pointed at what I wanted answered. You don't agree?

ISO 15

Ok. I'll give you a chance to reread. My vote stays until I start doubting my read though. As for your link, I'll give 'er a read tomorrow. As it stands currently, I still think it is a bad idea to ask for townie lists... One question in the meantime though. If you think its a good idea, is the only thing holding you back the fact that you haven't responded to Monkey yet? Or are you withholding for other reasons?

As it stands at the moment... I think that your views on people suspecting you are negative... and your views on the people saying they might not suspect you are positive. Don't know what to think about that...

(Fuzzy points elsewhere... You think this is townie.
D3x points you... you think scum.
Chinaman unvotes you... you think townie.)

Gives Raiv more wiggle room to do what Scien wanted Raiv to do to appear pro-town. Also gives Scien a way to unvote Raiv at a moments notice. Bolded is *huge* coaching, telling Raiv exactly what not to do. Scien commenting on this being scummy, but not having it solidify his read on Raiv is damning as well. (Also, Raiv and Scien were in a game together, in which I also was (town). Scien scum in that game, Raiv newb-town. They have a repertoire with each other, I can def. see Raiv looking to Scien for help if needed)

Meh. This is a more valid concern than your others since its not WIFOM, I will give you that. So out of curiosity, if I tell anyone why I have concerns, does that count as coaching to you? I was saying why I was voting and questioning him yet. BUT EVERYONE DOES THAT WHEN THEY VOTE/CAST SUSPICION. What makes my instance different than others?

ISO 18

Okay... I have not been on him because that was an obvious miswording. I don't even understand how someone can be both townie AND scummy... and naturally assumed that this was not his intended meaning. How can someone be both?

I'm not deliberately trying to defend him here, I am trying to defend myself, but I am making an assumption about what he meant by that phrase. I think he was trying to say that my questioning was inherently neither pro-town nor pro-scum and suggest that he had not made up his mind on me yet. In other words, he screwed up the conjunction, he meant OR, not AND. By me making this assumption that he misworded when he made that statement, I guess I don't see what I should be concerned about. What does him using 'and' imply?

This is him trying to reword what Raiv said into a more pro-town standpoint. Skruffs caught it and questioned him on it, while I missed it initially. Town-Scien doesn't need to make anybody logical, needs to look at what was said and ask questions if it's not understood.

You are incorrectly quoting this. I am talking about Zee's comment that what you call my early "waffling" was "Scummy and Townie". This whole block has nothing to do with Rai. You are suggesting that I was going out of my way to make Zee's comment more logical? No. I was willing to ignore it and make the sense that I did out of it.

It was only when I was called out on that, and told that if I was townie I would have to question it that I brought it up. I was explaining why I didn't question, and more over why I held no suspicion over it.

This is very close to a direct manipulation of a quote of mine BTW.

{BTW: ISO 22 (it's all you really need to read) is another reason why I believe Scien to be scum all on his own. Skruffs questions are excellent, and Sciens answers are less than stellar}

Opinion. Why on both?

ISO 24

This does read like scum hopping on a wagon to me. Sure he has posted his reasons but it reads like he doesn't really believe them.

I believe them. I want to discuss them with you. I was trying to give you some time for you to catch up.

Would you like to address some of my and the town's concerns here?

Here are mine, I think the rest of the town was just harping on one though:

First, Raiv is under severe pressure at this point, and I believe his (Raivs) question to Scien is part of Raiv's attempt to buss Scien. Also, if you believe in scum slips of the tongue, the bolded is classic.

Sigh. The word town is not always alignment based. The entire town can mean location. You know this.

ISO 34

Woah. Number one, would that end the day?

Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this?

BTW I was aware of the rule. I was hoping it would be ignored... and he would play.

First question (by Scien): hoping that he'll get out of it with just a scum modkill and not have to worry about looking townie for the remainder of the day, and possibly dealing with another scumlynch, after how much Raiv connected himself with you.

First question. If I was scum I would not comment about this. Second, I would love the opportunity to hit a townie during the day. Why would I not? If I didn't it would just be like a town first day scum kill. That would be bad. You got your motive wrong here, so I have to question your conclusion about its scumminess as well.

Second question (by Scien): Scien was unhappy about Raiv getting killed, but still voting for him. With the recent FoS to ZEEnon, why keep a vote on Raiv (that got to L-1, L-2 for SURE) if Scien didn't want to see him dead? After that much pressure and a wagon progressing that far, everybody voting for him should want him lynched at that point. To "not be happy" about it is an utterly ridiculous statement and also pegs Scien as scum.

Where did I say or hint that I was unhappy. I can assure you this was not the case. Another point. I was not voting him at this point you are mistaken. Although that doesn't help me, I do have to point out your mistakes in the above. By that time I was not voting for him. I thought that someone sounded like they were unhappy. I wanted to get this in concrete form rather than suspicions. At the time I asked this Rai had not flipped. I had no way of knowing if he was scum or town. If someone was happy and the flip was townie. That's cause for scrutiny. If someone was unhappy and the flip was scum. That's cause for scrutiny. At the time I didn;t know what the flip would be, but if someone seemed happy pre-flip, I wanted to know why.

The question was not ridiculous, and you are incorrect for saying so. The fact that you are now trying to show that I was unhappy and the flip was scum, shows that you know what I was looking for. How can you call something you are looking for ridiculous when I do it, but scum hunting when you do it?

[Scien]

Scien, are you suggesting a possible alternate lynch candidate this close to deadline (ZEE) or

is it just his posts that stick out to you enough to post on

?

The bold. I guess I was waiting for Zee before my absense, so thats what I was wanting to comment on. I was skimming through and hitting the things that I could comment on the fastest. I suppose.

[Scien]

Woah... before I get hammered for it, I have to claim I was doing it from memory and was incorrect.

When I made the whiff are you happy comment I was still voting Rai... sorry.

[Scien]

The reason this tripped my senses is that as VT (which he claimed, I wasn't expecting otherwise tbh) his opinions and viewpoints are no more valid than the rest of ours. His comments wouldn't really affect much as he's as much in the dark as we are, and without really seeing his point of view it'd be hard to base anything on what he's said (and basic human psychology, we always believe our point to be more important than anybody else's). So after a VT flip, we really wouldn't look at what he's said as he won't be NK'd (he's under too much pressure and almost getting to a lynch; scum def. want to keep him around, not going to assume more than 1 killing role yet).

Just out of curiousity, what would you expect with a power role townie? If I claim in day 1, I don't have any additional information no matter what my role. Saying that me being VT changes my thoughts is silly.

Now. As for wanting to get my info out. Explaining my plays can help town. Explaining my suspicion can help town. You are right, you would need to take it with a grain of salt since I know nothing concrete myself. But if the scum are pursuing me, it could be because I particularly irritated them somehow with a view of mine. If I can clear suspicion on me as well, you are more likely to consider my points of view and maybe get some new directions to look at events, rather than writing me off as "newbie guy who should have stayed in road to rome".

In short, my thoughts have value, but are not concrete. I don't know anything, just like everyone but scum.

As scum, though: the value of his comments are to throw us red herrings, possibly with a bit of truth in there to help his partner out the most he can.

Assuming there is another scum. We do not know this correct?

[On my Zeenon unvote]

My only reasons for voting Zeenon, was to get questions to my answers and to try and get why he thinks I was manipulating his absence rather than going to the logical conclusion for a townie to make. He answered some of these, and with hours to go and what looks like the village (since I can't say town apparently without it getting called a slip) getting setup in an either or between MM and me, my vote on him lost pressure power, and needed to be placed elsewhere.

[Scien]

Back to this, since I was wrong about my vote:

Second question (by Scien): Scien was unhappy about Raiv getting killed, but still voting for him. With the recent FoS to ZEEnon, why keep a vote on Raiv (that got to L-1, L-2 for SURE) if Scien didn't want to see him dead? After that much pressure and a wagon progressing that far, everybody voting for him should want him lynched at that point. To "not be happy" about it is an utterly ridiculous statement and also pegs Scien as scum.

Where did I say or hint that I was unhappy. I can assure you this was not the case.[...] I thought that someone sounded like they were unhappy. I wanted to get this in concrete form rather than suspicions. At the time I asked this Rai had not flipped. I had no way of knowing if he was scum or town. If someone was happy and the flip was townie. That's cause for scrutiny. If someone was unhappy and the flip was scum. That's cause for scrutiny. At the time I didn;t know what the flip would be, but if someone seemed happy pre-flip, I wanted to know why.

The question was not ridiculous, and you are incorrect for saying so. The fact that you are now trying to show that I was unhappy and the flip was scum, shows that you know what I was looking for. How can you call something you are looking for ridiculous when I do it, but scum hunting when you do it?

This all still stands.

[Scien]

Wouldn't the initial "wrong" if continued be a scumtell for them? They're the one making the false accusation and not backing down on it. Regardless, one or the other person is going to make *more* sense than the other; leading them to take sides. You will never see a debate that's exactly even if you think both sides are wrong for arguing, one or the other will make a better point and you will see that and go with it over the other guy. If you can point out a town vs. town argument where both sides are wrong (at the heart of the issue, not just calling each other scum which is obviously wrong) that you don't agree with one person more than the other, I'll retract my whole case against you. Besides, if you thought both sides were wrong, you'd intervene and tell them so instead of asking them questions about it and letting it continue.

Yep. That's why I looked elsewhere rather than trying to stop the discussion. Let them fight it out, and if I see one side start to overly stretch, start questioning. I suppose when you word it the way that you are now, you say that is what you would expect. If you word it as you have been I was 'waiting to choose a side'. Meh.

As for certain things they were doing? Yes. As I have said before, I didn't know if the exaggerations were based on townie motives or scum motives. They could have been either. I needed more tells before I would make up my mind on that.

{connections to dead scum}

I was under the impression that you were criticizing me at the time for not picking a side and looking for connections on the other to find a scum/scum team. So I guess neither of us understand each other here. I suspect town vs town there, and always did. However there's no way in day one that neither of them could know that... and so I can't be drawing town/town connections between them. They just don't know, same as me. What am I missing that is concerning you?

{Raiv leaving a growing wagon to buss a scumpartner}

Hmm. Ok, I can't read into Rai's frame of mind here... but I think what you are saying unfortunately makes sense. That's not how I looked at it at the time however. At the time I was seeing him as getting out of his whole, and I wanted to look elsewhere. I thought that his redirect question was based more on a townie wanting to test a read on some kind of scum connection between Zee and me. I suppose you are right. Since that was my next stop anyway I didn't have a problem with changing to Zee. I should have been more concerned with the redirect question, but I gave it a bad read I suppose.

You also state that you kinda had to baby him along to answer your questions.

Baby him along to answer the questions. Not baby him answers to my questions... if that makes sense.

I don't think that in those exchanges I was not asking him direct questions. You disagree?

[On my response to my ISO 14]

Sigh, I guess this is more of the last statement too. You don't agree that's cool. But I don't think I was feeding him any answers. I was rewording questions until he freggin answered them.

{coaching when using a vote}

Everyone typically dumps out why they are voting when they vote, if only to continue examining the suspect, although there is a self preservation motive there too. You don't think so? How is this any different than when I voted Rai?

{ISO 22; skruffs good questions, sciens "bad" answers}

I am occasionally guilty of this, and unfortunately, I don't think I have the time for a good defense here. I am typically a bit soft handed on people day 1, due to lack of info.

your breakdown of skruff's post in the middle looked a lot like Mastin as scum. Line by line is extremely ineffective, and allowed you to dodge a point of skruffs (IMO). Also, your ridiculing of Skruffs position on you by saying you're alike to both ask questions is antagonistic, while also belittling all of his concerns towards you into one argument that is weak. From here out, you get a lot more offensive *towards* skruffs, and your change of heart during the post looks like you've found a new target to try to mislynch.

I got nothing here... I am confused. In the interest of time, I am going to hit it anyway.

I have never seen Mastin play as scum, and more importantly I am not Mastin. I typically address line by line in an attempt to not miss somthing, and in order to keep things chronologically correct. I ridiculed? I'm alike who? I tried to lynch Skruffs? Where? I am not going to lie here. I was getting irritated. I was feeling like many small positions of mine were attacked rather than actual plays. Many of these small attacks I felt could be explained fairly easy and I was irritated that I had to repetitively do that. I could just see it now, 10 pages of that would have lead to my lynching just because you were tired of my avatar. Heh. We might be getting to that point here as well. (The you irritated at me part, not the other way around)

Also, by focusing on the slip part and not the Raiv bussing you part, makes me think I'm right about this as well.

I focused on that enough. The bussing me part is WIFOM. I know I am town. I can't prove it to you. But using his actions against me as a tell is silly. You can't know what was in his mind. You can suspect, but you can't build cases around it. For all you know it was OMGUSing me for putting pressure on him earlier. Just because he flipped scum doesn't mean anyone he looked at was scum.

I state that you'd be more likely to ask if a modkill would end the day as scum than town.

I was highly certain that it would not. I was kind of asking in an accusatory manner towards the person who suggested that we should stop talking because it was twilight. I am not going to say I was certain, but that 'quit talking we are in twilight' struck me as odd.

Town would relish the chance to not lose a lynch, get a scum dead and look for connections with dead scum. Scum would see the connections with the dead partner and want to end it immediately to lick their wounds, stop discussion and use their NK to hopefully steer away from the partner, or use the time to plan with each other and work on a false connection.

I disagree. I think the scum would like the chance to hit a townie as well. Early game is more likely for them to do so. This is all besides the point though. Where was I unhappy that the modkill came?

Read your "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this? " question with the emphasis on "happy". Or just ask your question with "this" substituted with the actual scenario: "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about (scum getting modkilled and allowing us to look for connections)?

AT THE TIME I DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS SCUM! I assumed he was townie due to the (no offense) poor play, and tried to kill himself out in frustration from a pressuring town. At the time, I did not know the rule would be enforced. I did not know his flip. I was trying to get that feeling concretely expressed in case it happened and he flipped town.

Besides. If I knew that he was scum, why would me asking who was happy help. It wouldn't make me look any better.

First off, you should be extremely happy, and the way you phrased your question sounds like you're asking them why they're happy about it (when it should be obvious). Secondly, it's like a free day-vig. You kill the person you think is most scummy, and you're happy about it either way. If scum, yay! If town, well, there's the biggest distraction gone, but we can still talk about reactions to the scummy person and who made the weakest case on them, etc. It's actually an extremely powerful tool, and one that you should have been happy about either way, regardless of alignment, especially if your vote was on him (and he was at L-2? or something close to there).

Again. Thats all well and good in hindsight, but when I made that comment he had not been mod killed yet, and I suspected that if he was he would have flipped town.

I was happy when he flipped scum. I was not happy at the time, because I suspected the flip would be town.

As for the day vig comment... I don't know anything about that. I am a simple player who has only played with roleblockers, docs, and cops. I don't know if I would be happy about a day vig hitting townies. Should I be?

[Scien]

(I was not happy at the time that he claimed about his fun level, because I thought that was just frustration talking and likely townie doing so)

^ To be more clear. Sigh.

[Scien]

Around 3 hours to go.

I will hammer myself in 2 hours at 5 mountain time, 6 central. That will give you an hour to know if I am a lying bastard if you guys don't do it before then.

[Scien]

Scien, before I go to bed, may I ask why, if you are town, do you not suspect Amish is scum? I tried to put myself in your shoes and the biggest case on you is coming from him yet you don't suspect him?

I am in defensive mode. I get a feeling that some of Amished issues around me are overly stretched... but I don't have time to examine it. You guys should tomorrow.

Do you think he's town that read into another towns actions incorrectly?

It's possible. He, like Zee, have been backing off me a bit now that my death is a bit more certain, though and I would look at that tomorrow.

Following that, who would you say is scum? With at least 1 possibly 2 out there, you must have your suspicions. If MM is your vote due to a him or me attitude, who would you lynch today if it were up to you and why? This is of course not concrete as if you are town, you don't have any better clue than the rest of us, but it would be more info to go off of. I personally believe scumhunting isn't always done by one person leading the pack but by tossing idea's off one another.

Hmm. There are a few inactives I think would be on that list. I would take a look at Amished and Zee. If MM would cooperate he deserves a look tomorrow as well... everyone else was buddying me. I guess thats just about the whole town lol.

Uh. I think due to my light on lurkers policy, the list might be something like this:

Scummy

Amished
MonkeyMan576
ZEEnon
Fuzzyman
Dizzle
Skruffs
jasonT1981
cruelty
Chinaman
d3x

Townish

That list is a lot softer than usual... I am use to smaller games, and for some reason I'm not as set as I usually would be. That top half is were I would be looking.

But you already said that both were stretching like town. You've now altered your stance to "waiting to see if the already bad logic got worse". How much worse could it have gotten for you to step in?

Heh, I thought they both were town. No reason to stop them from talking.

RAIV. IS. DEAD. Look for connections to him.

Every connection so far has been based in WIFOM. Good for pressuring, not so good for building cases around. Yes you can guess at scenarios all day, but you can't prove any kind of connections until you start seeing people flip.

The way you rephrased your questions made it pretty obvious what you were looking for in an answer. That's what I mean by coaching, and the way you worded them wasn't something that'd stick out and get a response from my POV.

I don't understand this. The way I worded my questions made it seem like I wanted answers? That was coaching? The way I worded them was not a way they would stick out and get a response? I don't understand... isn't that the opposite of your first sentence?

"WAHH? That doesn't make sense!"

Anywhere I did that is the truth. I can't prove it, but it didn't make sense to me. Purely my lack of reasoning I am sure, but when I flip any subversive motives you are seeing will be revealed as false.

Early on, you were soft with Skruffs, but by the end of the post you were getting more and more abrasive with your responses.

Due to answering piecewise. You may have a grief with me doing that, but what you are seeing is an artifact of that. More irritation, as I answer similar things.

{Raivann modkill/flip/continuation}The whole affair after Raivann was modkilled looked staged and extremely cheesy. As long as the thread isn't closed, I can post is my take on things (and alive, of course). Your {Scien} reactions looked the most staged out of all of them, and there's no need for staging unless you already knew the outcome of the flip.

Town question him on this, I personally think that anything I said BEFORE the flip might appear this way, because I expected the flip to be town.

Anything after the flip would have been with more knowledge, and I would have shut up a bit. I would like to see where you disagree.

Finally, I'd like to note the feeling I've gotten that the more I argue/back and forth with Scien, the further we're getting from my original points, which is extremely unsettling. I don't like this feeling at all, and I understand how I'd feel it from accusing scum, I don't if Scien flips town.

Pointless point. In one case you have me, dead to rights, and have no need to post this. In the other you are covering your ass. "Oh that's surprising, he really was town." Why post this? What are you afraid of if I flip town? Townies shouldn't be afraid of chasing their suspicions.

[Scien]

We can clear this up.

Vote count Mr Mod, please

[Scien]

@Scien - Why do you feel that China is likely town? How does his recent switch from Monkey to you affect your read on him?

Meh, depends on how much he reacts to what has gone on today. I'm pretty fuzzy on everyone... I assume you guys are too.

If I was a bistander in this situation, I don't know who I would pick. I would like to think I sounded more logical and more cooperative than MM, but I don't really know how I looked.

Probably pretty bad for a day 1 lynch. This is a first for me, and this is not my first game (lol).

[Scien]

and by fuzzy I mean, grey. I'm not set in stone here on who I think is scum and town. I just know where I would look.

[Scien]

...

[Scien]

That ... was at Monkey for the CYA comments...

But also the Vote count. I was positive both me and MM were L-1 at this point... This is not the case?

[Scien]

This is a bad spot. 1:35 to go... I can't self hammer if that vote count is right...

[Scien]

My scum list is about the biggest piece of crap thrown together... people asking me about it I assume are just asking for it in the case I flip scum... I don't hold to it. In the time that I caught up today I have been on defense.

You can LOL at it all you want. That's about all it is good for anyway.

[Scien]

If I was reading others critically and had a hand in questioning towards the end of the day... it would be a different story.

But I've just been answering questions. I can't get reads off people for what might be legitimate concerns.

[Scien]

(My scum list that is)

[Scien]

Uh... yes

Well 1:25 now.

[Scien]

Again fuzzy... if its me or no lynch. Its going to be me.

[Scien]

Uh...
We are at deadline.

Fuzzy. You think a no lynch would be beneficial how?

[Scien]

Oh... nevermind Fuzzy.

[Scien]

Thats why I said I would hammer an hour before... if I am a lying bastard... the town will see that... you can be confident I will do it... if I don't at this point someone in your wagon should hit me for lying.

[Scien]

an hour before deadline that is

[Scien]

Sorry guys. I tried to play to the best of my ability. It wasn't enough this time I suppose. Good luck town and use the information to the best of your ability. Carefully consider all angles before you make hard conclusions, but don't be afraid to draw soft ones to pressure people

Good luck again.

Unvote
Vote: Scien

[Scien]

Meh, I couldn't make my mind up about MM while in game. I was a bit focused on self preservation though.

Amished, that was some hardcore third party defense there. Did you really think that

nothing

of MM's plays was... well... at least unhelpful during day 1?

Not criticizing, just not understanding. That defense was so strong it made me question your motives left and right, and I couldn't understand why you would do that.

As for getting both the SK and the Scum to try and hit you, lawl. Nice work.

Not really surprised about Chinaman, he seemed to back off my case as well in late day one, just like MM. I think Amished did too to an extent.

Meh sorry I played so weak guys, if I played a bit better you might have had a home run in day 1. I've never been lynched day 1 before so that was new. Oh well lol.

[Scien]

Any way, I hope to play with you guys again. Next time I think I will play a better game though.

Sorry bout that.

Thanks for modding you two!

[Scien]

Dunno about that... mainly don't see how its really a restriction. I thought about doing similar to him, but I was just going to claim a color. I wanted to me Mr. Blue or Mr. Green heh.

[Scien]

Holy crap did I inspire an idea for the community?

Maybe I am not such a bastard after all!