Mini 872: Mafia in Belgrove - That's All Folks

[crypto]

Vote: Ectomancer.

%$#@, I've wanted to do that for such a long time.

*waves to Walrus Helmet*

[crypto]

Obviously. Also, you should random-vote.

[crypto]

Darkstrike's dislike of RVS is well documented. Case closed. I support lynching him for something else, though.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: U.N. Owen.

[crypto]

Wagon on Owen, please.

[crypto]

Something else?
Do tell

I was joking.

Ahem….*in keira knightley’s voice* WHAT ARE THE CHARGES?

Seriously, reasons for why we should wagon?

1. How many games of mafia have you played?

Five finished games, two ongoing. And then this one.

2. Do you prefer Mafia or Town roles?

In theory? Town. But I have yet to play as scum.

3. What is your favourite power role to have?

Power roles suck. VT all the way. I'd love to have day vigilante or lie detector, though.

4. What is your opinion on crypto’s call for a wagon this early in the game

It's a glowing triumph.

---

a doctor's usefulness is spotty at best

No. Doc excels at playing mind games with scum at night. It's risky, but claim-related gambits have the potential to be ridiculously effective.

Demonstrating my preferred style of unvoting.

Why did you feel the need to do that?

---

My vote landed on Owen because he smoothly skirted RVS, and because cracking alignment-related jokes tend to be extremely lame and suspicious as far as I'm concerned.

Ecto, I think the trajectory of Netapolis's comments on Owen and his wagon is blindingly suspicious (except that he seems like a relatively new player), but I don't know why Neta-scum would jump to defending his scum buddy so quickly. I'm not sure we're seeing the same thing.

Wow. I didn’t think that it could be seen this way. The intent wasn’t scummy, I can say that. I’m trying to gauge how people play and how they react to say, certain questions.

3. I've never had a power role before, I guess it would be cool to be a cop and try to make the town aware of your investigations without revealing your role.

/facepalm

Ahh I didn’t see that as a joke. I haven’t played with crypto before, so I didn’t recognise this!

4. I didn't really like it, it seemed cold and sudden, without reasoning.

So you change your mind and say I was joking (I wasn't, by the way), but then pin "cold," "sudden," and "without reasoning" on me?

[crypto]

Then why didn't you update your view? We don't care about what it "seemed" to be. We care about what you think it is

now

.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: malpascp.

[crypto]

Because I'm mafia

trying

to look scummy with an unexplained vote switch.

Or, because [reason reserved].

[crypto]

*sigh*

Let me ask you guys something: Do scum often go out of their way to switch votes without reason? How does it not occur to you that I'm

trying to get something done

when I do that? Especially when I give a blatantly obvious response to JereIC in post 59. There's such a thing as fishing for reactions. Voting without presenting an argument is a shoddy reason to jump on someone. It takes the pressure off Malpascp—who, if he's mafia, will probably feel the need to come up with a pitch-perfect reaction—and dumps it on me. Well done.

If I want to wagon someone, I'm going to say so. I did so before, with Owen. Please don't be blind.

(That said, I wouldn't have objected to a wagon on Malpascp.)

Ecto, I'm moving toward Malpascp, not away from Owen.

unvote Vote:Crypto

Please justify your vote Crypto

And the reaction is as awful as I hoped it would be. Here in Amurrica, we call this OMGUS. It is not a good thing and it warrants exploration.

Malpascp, your first post was a blatant mini-wagon on Darkstrike. You regurgitated JereIC's reason

after

Darkstrike said he disliked RVS. There was clearly going to be a followup conversation/debate.

Then you lurk while posting in your other ongoing games. And when I randomly vote for you, you knee-jerk with an OMGUS in a post lacking in any other insight. In case you still don't get it, Mal, that means you didn't even comment on Darkstrike's defense or anything else that went on and cut straight to the OMGUS vote.

You have nothing to say about anything that's happened so far, but then you OMGUS me. My vote stays. Please post convincingly pro-town substance.

Netapolis, your post makes me itch as well. In fact, it looks even worse than Malpascp's, from my point of view. I switch to Mal and have an exchange with Jester, and then you come on and call me "silly" (post 60), focusing instead (again) on Owen's role-playing. But then when JereIC applies pressure to me (significantly more pressure than Jester did), you drop an opportunistic vote on me with the painfully vague reason that my play is "erratic." The catch: Between your post where you called me/us "silly" and your post where you voted for me, I hadn't posted.

So, yeah, looks to me like you were capitalizing on JereIC's pressure. Huh. I guess we'll start with you explaining what about my play was erratic, and then we can start beating each other's points into the ground.

[crypto]

This defense (reaction fishing) is the EXACT defense I have used in the past when I was scum who realized that he had made a dumb move. Nice try.

Number one, townies do this all the time. Myself included.

Number two, you'll have to link that experience or it isn't worth crap.

[crypto]

Also, you just applied a personal tell to someone else. That's bad.

[crypto]

I concur. Anyway, it doesn't matter; see the post directly above yours.

[crypto]

Hello. I didn't ask him to defend himself. I wanted to see how he would react to an unreasoned vote switch onto him. His reaction was an OMGUS. It's obviously not damning, but it's still awful.

Voting without reason is always a useful thing to do. You get double the reaction: one after the unreasoned vote, and one after the case is laid out (if there is one).

[crypto]

Crypto: Are you purposefully trying to be antagonistic? I'm not trying to be insulting or accusatory, I'm honestly curious. In my first game someone was doing this as a way to draw out scum. The reason I suspect that you might be are your tactics (unjustified voting, calls for a bandwagon) and the tone of your posts.

I'm always aggressive. My mood tends to change every morning. Actually, I wasn't pissed off when I checked up on the thread today, but the responses I got to my vote switch are mind-boggling. People vote without reason

a lot

on this site. It's annoying to see players flip out at a pro-info move.

On the other hand, those reactions are also good for filing away later.

If you are, have you done this before? Was it effective?

Some games I get really frustrated. Abrasiveness often doesn't help— unsurprisingly, other players tend to get uncooperative. It's not a play style, if that's what you're asking.

And the result should always, theoretically, be the same - "Why are you voting me! Give some explanation!"

Voting without a reason is a worthless play and should be discouraged.

Um, no. There are gradations of that response. There's OMGUS, bewilderment, feigned bewilderment, annoyance . . . Seeing how players react to petty jabs, especially coming out of RVS, can be very useful for later reads even if it isn't immediately notable.

[crypto]

Um, no, I didn't get what I wanted. Probing another player and walking out with everyone haranguing me instead is crap when it comes to fulfilling my agenda.

And no, without looking at the (nonexistent) numbers I'd say without hesitation that scum are not more likely to randomly vote switch, especially at this point. Scum have no reason to shine extra light on themselves unless they're very confident (and know people will buy it).

Also, upon rereadx—Mal used "justify" after someone else said something about voting without "justification." Obviously a dicey tell, but more fuel to the Mal fire. Both his votes so far have been really awful mini-wagons.

[crypto]

That was in response to Jere.

[crypto]

In re: Crypto, I still maintain that it's bad play, but I do appreciate the analysis of his play and understand what he was attempting to do.

Can you piggyback on other players' suspicions more please? You're going with the flow way too much.

AFC - Yes, but if you're going to call something scummy, you're implying that it either is a freudian slip or that it is something that would advance the scum's game. Therefore, attacking something as scummy then refusing to explain why it advances the scum's game by calling it WIFOM is rather silly, IMHO.

This is a stupid argument. Can you please drop it?

[crypto]

Netopalis, regarding going with the flow:

Nobody, if my memory is correct, jumped on Owen for his posting style. Hell, nobody even wanted to lynch him. Ecto and I were the only ones who voted for him. The point was that (boldfaced for the skimmers)

he did not random-vote after subscribing to Kiku's argument, which was pro-RVS

. Less importantly, I didn't like his humor. Ninety percent of humor that involves alignment is stupid and suspicious. Deliberate injection of a WIFOM-demanding element like that into the game is anti-town.

Next up is calling us "silly" well after Jester calls me out for my vote switch. I.e., you found it uninteresting. Then, after Jere pins more suspicion on me, and immediately afterward you vote for me based on vague intuition and revolving around the vague term "erratic." You followed Jester and Jere; you didn't go against popular opinion.

Then when Jester accepts my explanation and shifts to Owen, you back out as well. Yes, that is going with the flow.

Fair enough, although I think that what Crypto's post actually accomplished is better than what it intended to accomplish: He intended to get reactions from one player, but we've started getting reactions from a variety of them.

So suddenly reaction-fishing isn't bad? Speaking of which, I don't think I mentioned this before, but between posts 83 and 86 you go from claiming my reaction-fishing was scummy to claiming it was useless for the town. And yet you keep your vote on me, when the notion that it was scummy was ostensibly the reason for your suspicion.

In re: Crypto, I still maintain that it's bad play, but I do appreciate the analysis of his play and understand what he was attempting to do.

How does this clear me of being scum? Can't scum be self-analytical as well? They can wriggle their way out of trouble just as well as townies.

Unvote. Vote: Netopalis.

[crypto]

Wow.

Unvote.

Malpascp, entering multiple games as a new player is a bad idea. I suggest you replace out of a couple. And you shouldn't ever be in seven games at once

ever

. Period.

Sigh.

The OMGUS is still questionable, but I agree that it's not a scum tell and my attack on Malpascp after he committed it didn't produce squat. Knowing that he's in so many games at once nullifies a lot of this.

---

Crypto: First of all, "erratic" is not a vague term. It has a very specific meaning. According to Webster's, it is "Having no fixed course" or "characterized by a lack of consistency." In other words, I felt that your play was lacking in any reason at the time, because I didn't understand what you were doing. Now that you've explained it, I understand it but do not agree with it.

By "vague" I meant that you said I was erratic without pointing out why. You still have not. And if you didn't understand what I'm doing, how could you call me erratic? You would need to grasp the meaning of my actions in order to call them erratic. Perplexing ≠ erratic.

Further, I think that his "acceptance" of Kikychio's argument for RVS was not really saying that he subscribed to that philosophy, just an acknowledgment of it being the best argument for the opposing position that he has read as of yet.

But he didn't state his own view on the matter, which makes no sense if he's going to go against the explanation he's giving props to.

Finally, my backing out was not in response to Jester's backing out, it was because I begrudgingly understood what you were doing.

Er, yeah, I never expect a player of any alignment to admit to piggybacking.

Had I been online before Jester, I would have posted the same thing and you would be attacking him for "going with the flow". Finally, the fact that I understand what you are doing does not clear you of being scum, it merely means that there was at least something resembling logic behind your play, which was the problem that I originally had with you - your actions made no sense because I did not know what your hidden motivation was.

Fair enough. But concealing your motives or objective still is not a suspicious move. It's certainly a vital part of scum hunting, along with deception, gambits, etc. (though all of these should be used with extremely judicious frequency). Stuff like this is a major reason that traditional scum tells are worthless. Townies do ostensibly scummy things to fish for mafia. Hell, particularly enterprising mafiosi do ostensibly scummy things to look like townies fishing for mafia.

---

Netopalis's post 117 strikes me as town-like; that said, my unvote is more representative of my need to do a reread, and a quick meta on a player or two.

[crypto]

Neto, are you an alt?

[crypto]

Forget that question. Real question: At what website did you play Mafia before you came here?

There was no change between 3 and 4 and no change between 7 and 8. Post 3 was my first serious vote and post 7 was a switch to another player. How is that erratic, or even drastic, especially at the beginning of the game?

And no, my play did not signal haste for a lynch and it certainly did not reek of scum. Quick lynches out of RVS are impossible outside newbie games.

As for your erratic play, I guess I should have explained it a bit better.

I asked you (repeatedly?) to do so.

[crypto]

Netopalis, you still think reaction-fishing like I did is anti-town?

[crypto]

Is fishing for reactions scummy? Is posting unexplained votes scummy?

[crypto]

Not if done without posting unexplained votes. Yes, posting unexplained votes is scummy. I believe that I said that above.

You probably did, but I want to make sure we're on the same page. What do you mean by "scummy"? That in your experience, scum do whatever action more than town? Or something else?

[crypto]

Netopalis, I'm beginning to lose myself in the heap of my own questions, so I apologize if you already went over this—in which case feel free to point out where you did so—but why are unexplained votes anti-town/scummy? Also, what are the alternatives you would recommend for reaction fishing?

[crypto]

No, I'm not asking about your experience. I'm asking what exactly about the

function

of unexplained voting is bad for the town. Alignment doesn't have anything to do with it. Why/how does the function in and of itself negatively affect the town or positively affect the mafia?

A better way to reaction-fish would probably be to ask questions or wait for someone else to slip up before attacking.

Asking questions is vanilla scum hunting. Vanilla scum hunting often doesn't work—otherwise the town would never lose a game. Waiting for someone to slip up is an awfully passive strategy and it assumes incompetence on the part of the scum players.

[crypto]

Challenge me to a flame war. I dare you. If history repeats itself, you'll replace out and I'll be on the brink of a mod kill.

It
allows
scum
to
make
easy
cases
which
lead
to
mislynches.

Ahem.

Can I possibly make myself any clearer, Netopalis?

How?

What the flying fuck about an unexplained vote makes the mafia's job easier? Since you have failed miserably to explain the fundamentals, give me a fucking example, outside newbie games, of an unexplained vote on page 3 that's led rapidly to a lynch on a town player. Better yet, give me a fucking example that you've witnessed firsthand, as a player.

[crypto]

in general, bad play is scummy

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Backpedal more, please.

Oh, and just in case I really wasn't explicit enough with the above three cases, it's because the following:

[1.]

If we allow people to make attacks without reason, then we allow for unjustified attacks.

[2.]

Any response to one of these votes can be construed as scummy - either action OR inaction.

[3.]

Mafia know this and know that they can use it as a tool to get rid of a town player for free.

[4.]

Ergo, it can be a tool of the Mafia.

Okay, if this is the best you can do then screw it.

1.

A vote switch at the end of RVS is not an attack.

2.

Any response to anything can be construed as scummy.

3.

A quick lynch via unexplained vote bandwagon four pages into the game is not a concern for the town, sorry.

4.

Ah, so it

can

be a tool. EVERYTHING CAN BE A TOOL. That does not make it scummy, for fuck's sake.

If switching votes without reason is scummy because scum can use it to easily lynch townies, then so is building a solid, logical case. Your argument is awful. So is your failure to convincingly explain how the mechanics of an unexplained vote benefit scum. Lastly, your claim that in your experience scum vote like this more than townies is a load of shit. ABR did the exact same thing as town in a game where

you

were scum and you attempted to bulldoze him for it. ABR is in the top tier of players on MS, and he's also a very effective scum hunter. Those are not debatable assertions. This sort of stuff is standard procedure for him and many other players as townies. You know that.

I told you why I did it - you can agree with my motivations or not, but continuing to yell at me over it isn't going to magically make some other reason or justification appear out of thin air.

You are correct. A much better purpose for continuing to yell at you over it is to shed light on your transparently scummy behavior.

JereIC, I can't remember if I've done much reaction fishing

of this sort

in my completed games, but I have done it in one ongoing game under the username Symbol.

Vote: Netopalis.

[crypto]

I'm voting for you because you are not scum-hunting. You unvote me for an absurd and extremely suspicious reason, then you vote for me for the wrong reason, continually attacking me for things that have absolutely nothing to do with alignment. And that vote stays until you whip some incredible insight out from your mounds of BS.

Now stop trying to persuade me not to vote for you and make yourself useful.

Firstly, if you read the game that ABR and I were in together, you'll find that I was largely attacking him for voting without having read the thread, something which he openly admitted to on page two and never recanted. He intentionally played that game poorly. Perhaps I was colored somewhat by that game, but for me, it seems that logical play has always benefited the town.

Nope, you started flipping out at him before he said that. But that's beside the point, the point being you know that ABR's style is ostensibly instinctual and that he, along with many other players, often votes without explanation

as town

.

Your argument breaks down here, though. You say that this is not scummy, but you also say that anything can be scummy.

No. That is a pathetically disguised misrepresentation of what I said. My vote sure as hell stays where it is.

Also, just because something is standard procedure for someone doesn't make it not scummy. Someone may just have a scummy playstyle, something which I feel that Albert illustrates in spades.

Sigh. Do you really not know the meaning of "scummy"?

And I understand your point here, but I still maintain that, more often than not, lynches arising from random votes are mislynches which I suspect are at least partially orchestrated by the mafia.

Ran-
dom
votes
do
not
lead
to
mis-
lynch-
es.
Get
it
through
your
head.

[crypto]

Not really, Ecto. As the argument progressed Neto shifted his position, misconstrued my statements, and went against his own experience. It isn't about theory; it's about the progression of his posts.

[crypto]

Your suspicion of me is 100% OMGUS, by the way.

*ducks*

[crypto]

I voted for you well before you voted for me. As far as I can tell, you are only voting for me because you don't like how I'm badgering you.

I don't play Chess all that much. I would prefer lynching you.

[crypto]

FYI, I didn't instigate the theory discussion for the sake of a theory discussion. It wasn't about that.

Anyway, continue.

[crypto]

Neto, you just said the past page has been unproductive/worthless/whatever—that, essentially,

not

much has happened. Gyro's analysis came on page 6 (and toward the end, I believe).

It seems to me like you're trying—again—to worm your way out of suspicion, which isn't inherently bad, but you've taken to some awfully fishy-looking methods.

[crypto]

He didn't reassert his FoS on page 8. It's relatively clear. I feel like you are deliberately coloring your critics' posts however you like.

[crypto]

Yes, I knew what you were referring to. I've never seen someone renew an FoS in a Mafia game.

[crypto]

Awesomely quick replacement.

[crypto]

Netopalis.

[crypto]

@walrus helmet

Demonstrating my preferred style of unvoting.

Why did you feel the need to do so?

Also, what do you think of Kiku, Ecto, and Neto? (Awesomely intuitive nicknames, by the way.)

@Ectomancer

Why does the prolonged exchange make Neto and I look like we're either both scum or both not scum?

You seem to think there's merit in fishing through the mass of lurkers for scum. Do you have any particular suspects (there or elsewhere), other than Darkstrike/Raskol, who you think are worth pursuing?

@afatchic

You seem to be stating a lot of information rather than opinion.

Yes, the above is a question. Answer it for easy town points.

@JereIC

Pick two scum out of AFC, Jester, Ecto, Gyro, and Kiku.

@Mr.Jester

I put a Nerf gun to your head and ask you if U.N. Owen is town or scum. You must choose one. Answer wrongly and I pull the trigger. First, though, I'll shoot you in the knee unless you tell me your top suspect(s) outside Malpascp, Raskol, and Owen.

[crypto]

Awesome, Mod, thanks for these replacements.

This game must have the shortest replacement intervals I've ever seen.

I don't like this post at all. Anyone willing to publicly admit he or she is mafia almost deserves a lynch, whether it was a joke or not.

It wasn't a joke. It was sarcasm used to tip off whoever I was talking to while cloaking my intention enough that Malpascp, were he not paying attention, wouldn't think much of it.

It isn't clear at all, and while it may not be an officially bolded FoS, Gyro himself makes the clarification that it was a FoS and not a vote

My point was/is that you can't

renew

suspicion. It will be evident in player's redirection of his own attention to other players. As far as I'm concerned, Neto was trying to emphasize some sudden surge of suspicion from Gyro, when Gyro had first gone on the attack well before then. Anyway, it's probably a null tell for both of them.

[crypto]

that is at the point where I had been asked to rehash the same point 4 times

That's not what happened. Feel free to make lousy excuses for yourself and bask in your Ecto-appointed freedom, but that's shit.

[crypto]

Neto, the first three are all completely different from each other. You failed to answer the third, so I repeated it. You failed again, so I repeated it again.

Now stop returning to that screed.

[crypto]

I'm not being petty. Or rather I don't care if I am. You wormed your way out of the argument with by whining about that when it was fairly clear that your claims did not fully live up to your experience.

Ecto, I was being facetious.

Unvote. Vote: Mr.Jester.

I asked you a question, sir.

[crypto]

Not here

Your last post was 10/31, and you have only two words to contribute? You seriously need to replace out of a few of your 7 games.

Malpascp would like to apologize for failing to participate. Malpascp would like to inform us that he is very busy joining even more games in the Queue, and that once he is finished with his business in the Queue he will

continue to ignore this game

[crypto]

No, Malpascp. Fuck you. Participate in your games or leave. People like you are one of the reasons this site doesn't live up to its full potential. Your unashamed lurking wrecks games.

[crypto]

*mumbles apology for language*

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: Malpascp.

I see more merit in this lynch than in any other barring maybe Neto. I guess I'll just go with his vote for me being newb scum OMGUS instead of newb town OMGUS. Suits my agenda.

Get rid him.

[crypto]

That's a bit hasty, don't you think? Not that I disagree - Malpa is an excellent play today, but shouldn't we hear what he has to say first, no matter how incomprehensible?

Hopefully the vote will serve as motivation. I'm playing with him in another game. He lurks obscenely. Pressure's the only route I can think of. If it turns into a lynch, though, I can't say I'll be sorry.

[crypto]

*sigh* I have failed for the umpteenth time. The above post is my alt's, in case anyone didn't get the fricking memo. Now, what are you saying, Ecto?

[crypto]

I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I've never replaced you. You've been on my policy random vote for some time now (I think since being one of the people who replied to a thread I had in MD).

Anywho.

[crypto]

Ecto, you should start grilling one of us. You seem to be doing a lot of speaky without much condemning.

[crypto]

I'm getting suspicious of Walrus again. Call it OMGUS, but seems to me he's doing a

lot

of active lurking and next to no analysis.

[crypto]

I simply cant afford arguments to comment every single word you say, I like to be sinthetic.

The problem is that you haven't commented on jack shit. So your defense fails.

[crypto]

And yes, Malpascp, "paragraphs" are indeed "needed" immediately. Get your ass in gear, sir.

I think Gyro is playing just fine. Then again, I've thought so all game, so I could be biased on this one.

Really don't like how Walrus has both Neto and myself in his top tier of suspects. He's provided very little in the way of supporting arguments and just listing off the two of us along with Malpascp (ultra-easy newbie lynch) is howlingly scummy. That's some heavy-duty bandwagoning. Not only that, but Walrus undermines his own endowment of Malpascp with Best Lynch Award by saying "his behavior could also be applied to a power role, and it would majorly suck to lose a power role day 1." The whole thing reads to me like "Don't look me when the newb lynch flips town!"

Ecto is making me itch.

[crypto]

It's the same problem I had before. Too little decisiveness/aggression.

[crypto]

Walrus, it's not about aggression; I just feel like you're actively lurking and going with the flow too much.

Especially compared to your meta. In your two completed games you were much more proactive. Granted, they were newbie games, but it shouldn't have that much of an effect on your play style either way.

Unvote. Vote: walrus helmet.

Also, I'm bored.

[crypto]

Unvote. Sorry, Faraday, I fail.

Walrus, why are you FOSing me and Neto? Reasoning for both please.

[crypto]

I'm more interested in badgering Walrus. And I'm sort of hoping against hope that you'll roll around.

And

I can very much see what you may be trying to do here as town.

So I'm holding back idiotically.

[crypto]

Okay, I lost a whole post I had typed up. Guess it's a good thing for you guys, though, because now I'm forced into a TLDR version.

Walrus Helmet's defense with regard to activity is appealing at face value, but I'll have to go back again and check it against his two prior games to make sure. I still think he's less aggressive here than before.

(Speaking of which, Wal, unethically cutting short N. 852 is coming back to bite me. Shoulda seen it coming.)

I (still) don't like Wally's reason for voting for me. I'm a little confused / ticked off by how I keep getting accused of racing toward lynches. I race toward pressure and wagons, which, yes

may

later on develop into lynches if I and everyone else think the target is misbehaving. But the only real wagon I've invested in was U.N. Owen, and that was brief and boring given that he stubbornly clung to his play style and then resorted to lurking. I pummeled Neto as hard as I could, but I'm baffled that people are seeing that as "attempting to get . . . [Netopalis] lynched" (WH). Maybe I think of gradations in urgency (pressure vote, suspicion vote, wagon, lynch, etc.) differently than other people, but I really don't see how I was racing toward quick lynches. But Neto and WH—and maybe others; I can't be bothered to fish through the iso. reads—have both accused me of trying for quick lynches. So. Hmm.

@

All

, survey:

1. Did I look like I was rushing for a lynch? If so, why? (Yes, these are absurdly simple. No, they are not trick questions.)
   
2. What do you think of Neto's and WH's reactions to my [call it what you will] play? Neto and Wally, obviously I'm not asking you to self-analyze, but please answer with regard to the other guy.
   
3. Irrelevant to the rest of this post, but bear with me: What do you think of the Malpascp wagon, given that it's more about getting rid of the detrimental/irresponsible/useless/whatever newbie who also has a good chance of being scum as opposed to getting rid of the scummy newbie who is remarkably detrimental/irresponsible/useless/whatever to the town? Good or bad idea for a day 1 lynch? Why?

Reply or die.

Still anxiously awaiting your catchup post, Malpascp.

---

This post is jammed full of shabby English. My bad.

---

Ouch. And, upon computer reboot, it's horribly scattered in light of recent discussion.

And

I need to cool down for half an hour or my brain is going to explode. So I'm just going to bandwagon on Xvart's proposal that, with all do respect to Malpascp, Malpascp request a replacement out if he isn't going to post content. It isn't personal. I'm only in three games and I'm often pressed for time and short on quality analysis, so seven (more than seven at this point, if I read the Queue correctly) just can't work out. Stick to four or less, Malpascp, for your own sake and for the sake of other players. It's much more enjoyable. I'm learning the hard way how easy it is to run out of steam with Mafia. It's mentally taxing by default, and multiple games really rack the brain and turn it into something of a job.

[crypto]

Holy wow, these are the best replacements (speed-wise) I've ever witnessed. Mod is win. Foilist13 is also win. Welcome to the game.

Neto, as far as I know you can't vote for a replacement. Lurker, village idiot, and newbie are all perfectly valid cards to play. I feel for ya, but you can't demand that a player be replaced on the grounds that that player is scummy or anti-town or inexperienced or whatever.

I strongly disagree with you that wagon and lynch are the same things. In my experience (well, IIRC), there are typically two or three different wagons on day 1 before the lynch is decided upon. Spitting out a dead body really isn't the singular goal of day 1 wagons. Regardless, though, high five for answering.

[crypto]

Eh, I think a lot of newbies, especially when they're lazy or overburdened (one of which must be the case here), handle pressure very poorly.

[crypto]

Reasons are your friend.

[crypto]

Oh, wow.

/hypocrisy

[crypto]

The hell with it.

Vote: Mr.Jester.

Don't ask for a concrete argument. This guy just oozes scum.

[crypto]

Well, Neto, you can cut me some fucking slack for automatically questioning Ecto because I've posted a hell of a lot of fucking reasons this game. Or you can fuck off and start scum-hunting yourself.

[crypto]

And I'd fucking like some insight from yourself about players not named Crypto, Gyro, or Malpascp. You've made an absolutely awful,

ad hom

–fueled case against me, you've OMGUSed Gyro despite admitting that he didn't actually look solidly scummy to you and that he may very well be a mis-lynch (but wait—looks to me like you werefucking terrified of scum nabbing the easy mis-lynch based on my unexplained vote!), and you've cheered on the titanically stupid Malpascp policy lynch. And that's about it. So you can lay off and produce something half decent of your own instead of kissing the feet of whichever guy's argument you feel like piggybacking to fuck knows where.

[crypto]

Xvart, you're not properly isolating the scummy from the unorthodox. Look for motives. If I'm scum, why do I bounce over to Jester when I have a perfectly good target with Netopalis, who's scummy across the board, or with Malpascp, who's a damn good newbie/lurker lynch, or even with Walrus Helmet, who I had already begun building a case on at least.

---

Mr.Jester Case

Iso. 1

Approves of—or at least acknowledges—Owen wagon. Calls Owen scummy, but doesn't himself vote for Owen, or even contribute an inkling to the surrounding discussion. Lamely echoes the "Owen is scummy" mindset while providing zero actual insight with regard to why Owen's post was scummy.

Iso. 3

First part is in response to Afatchic, who picked up on his failure to post anything concrete about Owen. Jester's explanation is that "the wagon on Owen was reasonable based on his first post." Hmm. Another vague statement. Again, Jester provides zero insight. The lack of attention he had paid to Owen's actual post is shining through.

The second part attacks the post where Owen raged against my unexplained Malpascp vote. The core of Jester's argument is that my vote was scummy until explained, and that Owen's mimicry of my unexplained vote was also scummy. Jester is passing the same premature judgment on Owen that he and others passed on my vote. But Owen clearly gave reasons for his vote at the end of his post. Hence his "ConfirmVote." It becomes apparent that Owen's original vote for me was borderline facetious, and Jester's "He gave no reason" argument falls on its face. Well, Jester counters the real reasoning Owen gave for voting me (which was of course incredibly thin, but existent nonetheless) by reiterating what

I'd

said to rebut Owen half a page back, and in longwinded fashion. Too many words, too little originality, and one crappy simile (about communists and healthcare or whatever) that looks to me like it was contrived because Jester felt his actual case against Owen wasn't strong enough on its own.

Iso. 4

Stupid unvote. He didn't even bother to switch over to Owen. Way too cautious and self-conscious.

Iso. 5

In response to Kikuchiyo. I don't even know where to start here. "Hasn't convinced me that he is scum yet, but he is border lining," says Jester in defense of his failure to man up and vote for Owen. Apparently, Jester thinks the sole purpose of a vote is to signify who is definitely scum and who is not . . . which I guess doesn't mean much, but it's worth noting. Interesting that Jester thinks there's such a distinction between a vote and an FOS, and that an FOS is a good tool for gaining "answers and hopefully more insight into whether he is really scum or just makes more arguments." Yecch. And then the contrived "We need to see what he does next" statement. More yecch.

Iso. 7

Informs us he's a proponent of Lynch All Lurkers in this situation. Which flies in the face of his investigation of Owen. Yes, he includes Owen in his lurker lynch list, but only because Owen is

lurking

, not because he looks scummy.

Iso. 8

Ruh-roh.

Iso. 9

OMGUS on Raskol, which is even more disturbing because Malpascp did the exact same thing to me at the end of RVS. Strange that Jester didn't make this connection. Clearly not invested in the game . . . further evidence of which lies in his lazy resignation to waiting for Owen to post again before resuming the scum hunt.

Iso. 10

I don't even know. Accentuates difference between FOS and vote, which would be acceptable if he didn't rely so much on the "I only vote when I'm 100% sure someone's mafia" crutch. And in turn that crutch is even less acceptable given that he's been playing so passively. How are you going to determine who's scum if you only go on the offensive once a player replies to your original attack? Jester is effectively using Owen's inactivity as an excuse not to leap into the fray. And he's made no arguments against any other player, aside from that shabby OMGUS versus Raskol.

Then there's some logical analogy. Fluff, fluff, fluff. Aaand Jester never rebuts Raskol's observation that his go-go gadget Lynch All Lurkers flies in the face of his own lurking. Deer in headlights.

Iso. 11

Finally realizes that Owen was replaced

x

centuries ago. More evidence that he's paying little attention to the state of the game, i.e., that he isn't invested, that his play's been passive. Apparently, the mod casually tacked Xvart onto the player list a little while back, for kicks and giggles. Scum, especially inexperienced or downright mediocre scum, should be more likely than townies not to carefully observe who's doing what. In other words, I have a damn hard time imagining Jester-town just saying, "Fuck it," and losing all interest in the notion that Owen/Xvart's player slot might be a scum slot, but Jester-scum ought to be more inclined to get careless and slack off on his observations of other players. (And all this fits in nicely with the theory that Jester was using Owen's inactivity as an "I can't scum-hunt at all whatsoever until he comes back and responds to my previous post" crutch.)

---

See it, Jester? See it? That's more "reasoning" than you've shit out all week.

[crypto]

EBWOP:

See it,

Jester

Netopalis

? See it? That's more "reasoning" than you've shit out all week.

Cerebral carnage amid fits of rage.

[crypto]

Also:

="xvart"Crypto: I also don't like the fact that your rapid vote for Walrus was somewhat influenced because you were bored. That really undermines any argument you may have had because it appears you don't really care that much, out of boredom.

Oh, really? Please do enlighten me on the connection between my boredom and my vote for Walrus. Really, I'm dying to know. I can't find it myself.

Baffling, really.

[crypto]

Xvart, what do you possibly hope to gain from these questions?

That's exactly the point. There is a no connection between being bored and a vote. Your post reads that had you not been bored, you may not have voted.

Um. No. My "bored" comment was facetious. I don't vote for players because I'm bored. There's always a reason, even if it goes unspoken.

So scum is independent of unorthodox? Of all people playing unorthoxily, what do you suspect is the percentage of those that are scum and those are townie. I'm not asking for an exact math, but who is more likely to play an unorthodox game? Scum or town?

I don't know. Town, but the split's probably close to even. Intuitively, I'd say scum with their heads screwed on straight are more likely to be conservative than townies (especially vanilla townies, who have no power role responsibilities).

Also, so you think that switching your vote often is unorthodox?

Not really. There are plenty of players who switch votes a lot. The unorthodoxy lies in the fact that I went from suspects I already had cases to a player I hadn't previously voiced strong concern over.

[crypto]

Kiku, I'll gladly vote for Neto. Seems to me like most players have completely lost interest in him as a day 1 candidate, which is a shame. The one thing I'm unsure about is that his emotional investment strikes me as stubbornly pro-town. But then again, getting irritated because you think you're being asked the same question over and over again really isn't indicative of alignment. Scum under the gun certainly lose patience, too.

The only argument in Neto's favor is that he's too active to be lynched, and while I understand that it sucks to lynch an active player, I also feel like that's a shabby excuse for keeping him alive given how bad he looks.

Unvote. Vote: Netopalis.

A Jester lynch probably isn't gonna happen today, Neto is equally scummy (if not more so), and I oppose newbie lynches on day 1. It's one thing to lynch a player who's so convincingly scummy that said scumminess overrides the utter lack of interaction-related information his flip would provide. But all we have on Malpascp is that he's a lurking village idiot, and that's not at all worth the total lack of info his lynch would yield.

Preview edit: Neto's most recent post doesn't help. In fact, wow. Why would a townie with an IQ above 60 ever spew crap like that? It looks downright spiteful considering Neto's contributed nothing pro-town all game.

[crypto]

Neto, I don't consider poorly defending yourself and exotically omgusing Gyro, and then sitting on those arguments for however long, to be pro-town.

Sigh. If Neto isn't going to be hanged, then I 100% oppose a Malpascp lynch. Jester is the play today.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: Mr.Jester.

Super fun vote hopping.

@Netopalis

, I can't be bothered to reread at the moment, but I found the case against Gyro weak and your support of it looked like an entirely defensive measure. As for emotion, I was referring to our argument, not you versus Gyro.

Yes, a Mal lynch is opportunistic (for scum). The argument for Mal being scum is extremely weak and his flip reveals zero information regarding interaction with other players.

I oppose a Malpascp lynch because day 1 lynches are very much about information. If there was overwhelming evidence that Mal was scum, then, yes, he should be lynched, but since there isn't, a more informative lynch is optimal.

[crypto]

Also, I'm going to

tentatively

FOS Ectomancer

for the theory he puts forward in isos. 22 and 24. Scum did something similar in my last game. I've thought about it for a while and it doesn't sit all that well with me. Tentative, though.

@Neto

, do you oppose lynching a player slot that's undergoing a replacement?

[crypto]

Kinky.

[crypto]

The "They aren't both be scum" theory. I can very much see a mafioso using it in an attempt to clear or shift attention from a scum buddy while planting a town read on the other guy, or even to plant town reads on both players (substantially less likely). Denouncing an entire debate and pushing attention away from its participants is fishy to me; I don't care how unproductive the debate might seem (and I still maintain that it

was

productive).

No, I think something else is at work there and I'll need some time to work it out.

This in particular rubbed me wrong. It's a cliched statement, and I'm automatically suspicious of cliched statements because they have the ability to railroad a conversation without committing to a specific line of reasoning (beyond the initial theory, in this case the theory that Neto and I weren't both scum), but more notably you didn't follow up with anything.

Lastly, correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't really arguing against anything. The theory that Neto and I

were

scum buddies was not a popular one, if it existed at all. The whole idea behind our debate was that we were trying to prove each other's culpability. Among observers, there was little or no suspicion that

both

of us were scum. Your theory basically rebutted a nonexistent stance, and you used that theory to redirect conversation from the two of us, despite seeming to think Neto was relatively scummy on his own. You said, "So while neither looks good in their exchange, I can also not decide that neither looks bad as both being bad is unlikely," but instead of taking another shot at working it out, you went to this—yet another angle from which you could shift attention from me and Neto: "Pretend the mod just made a post that says you have to chose your lynch target in the very next post."

And then came the statement I initially quoted, which you never followed up on.

The FOS is tentative because this theory is largely contingent on Neto being scum. It's still possible that you're scum, that he's town, and that you want to avoid a day 1 lynch on him in order to keep him alive because he'll be a good source of controversy later on and thereby a smoke screen for the real mafia. That's probably less likely than you two being scum together, but it's pretty much what happened in my last game.

[crypto]

Ok, right now I'm getting a massive scum read from Neto and cruelty, but I think

it is unlikely that they're both scum

. I don't know what is going on here, but it seems like you two have completely lost it. Both of your reasons are stupid. You're just OMGUSing each other to the oblivion of all else.

(headdesk)

Kidding, but by "cruelty" do you mean me?

I disagree that it's OMGUS and that my reasons are stupid. (ducks)

[crypto]

I don't follow the logic for that night kill. Saved me from squandering time pursuing the Ecto-scum theory.

Vote: JereIC.

Savagely administered

RKOS: Netopalis

. Lesser but still substantial

FOS: Xvart

.

---

Is that just flavor text or did Gyro get a handicap (other than alcoholism)?

[crypto]

Oh.

[crypto]

...Was that a right knuckle

No, it was a roundhouse kick.

why would you vote someone who's MIA, crypto?

I was voting for him because he put Mr.Jester at L-1 despite zero previous commentary about him.

I have reason to believe the guy hasn't been on in a while.

Did you just claim scum and out your teammate?

iirc you were the first to vote Ectomancer. Although surely that may or may not be a factor in last nights recent death, surely.

Hello, I'm saying that my suspicion of Ecto was misplaced, and that the upside to his death is that I won't be wasting time pursuing that misplaced suspicion today.

[crypto]

Crypto: Why are you FOSing Xvart? Anything in particular?

Because of his chaotic hammer. An FOS is obligatory.

@Xvart

, what's your experience level?

[crypto]

EWBOP: Experience level with Mafia, that is.

[crypto]

I'm still confused. Did you mean my vote for JereIC was opportunistic, or JereIC's vote for Mr.Jester was opportunistic?

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: xvart.

(No, it doesn't have anything to do with my question.)

[crypto]

I don't know. I don't really believe you had the flu.

[crypto]

The flu affected your ability to read through the thread?

[crypto]

In case you missed it with the simultaneous posts and all, Xvart:

The flu affected your ability to read through the thread?

[crypto]

No, I don't mean it that way. It was an honest question. Can't say I've ever played Mafia with the flu.

[crypto]

No, I understand all of that. I just find it extraordinarily suspicious that the flu damaged your coherence in this game on Monday but not in your other ongoing game on Monday.

[crypto]

Crypto: No, but you implied that he never had it to begin with. Honestly, that's pretty harsh.... Not necessarily scummy, but I think it does cross a few lines of good sportsmanship.

I don't think checking in about those circumstances crosses any lines of good sportsmanship. If I started insulting him for it or if the subject was more private, then certainly, but not in this case.

[crypto]

See, that's something you should have said up front, rather than just saying you didn't believe he was really sick.

No, bullshit. I needed him to confirm that he was so sick he couldn't play efficiently; otherwise he might have wormed his way out of it.

[crypto]

Where in here does he list any reasons? Reason to believe means you have a finite

reason

. Whoops, thought I saw something does not explain it.

No. "I have reason to believe ..." is a turn of phrase. It isn't the same thing as "I have

a

reason to believe."

[crypto]

Wow. See post 444.

[crypto]

All right.

I don't really want to know how you managed another post an hour before midnight, but I'll buy it.

Unvote.

[crypto]

*shrugs* It's a turn of phrase, but it is one which is conventionally used in the sense that the person saying it has hidden, higher or not-well-known knowledge about the subject at hand. But I think we have bigger fish to fry than this little phrase.

I agree. Where was I?

Vote: JereIC.

Mod edit: VC

foilist13 (1) [Raskol]
Gyro (1) [xvart, foilist13]
JereIC (1) [crypto]

Not voting: (7) [Malpascp,Gyro, walrus helmet, JereIC, Netapolis, Kikuchiyo, crypto]

10 alive means 6 to lynch

[crypto]

Nah, I don't know that Xvart is a townie. I'm just saying that the pattern is similar.

I have a (tenuous) town read on Xvart, but I don't think you can make assumptions about pattern if you don't know Xvart's alignment.

[crypto]

Foilist13 and Xvart, what are your reads on Netopalis?

Realized I've been on defense a lot more then trying to hunt scum. That's depressing..

Get going!

[crypto]

Wait a minute ...

Unvote. Vote: Malpascp.

Malpascp, you're willing to vote for someone because that person OMGUSed. How do you reconcile that with your OMGUS vote at the beginning of this game?

[crypto]

Actually, Malpascp now has a case going for him other than general lameness, though it's difficult to explain without explicitly dissecting ongoing games.

[crypto]

Well, I was wondering if you'd have the industriousness to use my second to last quote to figure it out on your own. Evidently not the case.

Without going into detail, a meta of Malpascp shows he thinks OMGUS is a scum tell. But it's exactly what he did to me earlier in the game.

Therefore ...

[crypto]

the fact that he chose Jester over mal draws a pretty good line between the two

This is excellence.

I'm going based on the expressions of suspicion I've read in the last couple pages. He seems to be a better lynch candidate than Mr Jester.

The vague and potentially dodgy nature of this nags me.

[crypto]

Moar Malpascp votes.

[crypto]

Re: Xvart.

No.

Voting for Darkstrike during RVS was scummy. Malpascp made it a mini-wagon, and it came

after

Darkstrike had explained that he disliked random votes.

Malpascp abused emotional appeals to excuse his lack of play and shake off a lynch. That is scummy.

Kill the newbie guy if you want.

Funny, because he implied strongly that he didn't even know he was a newbie in a previous post:

I didnt complete any game yet, and Im playing in 7 games by now
Am I new?

Fulfilling other players' view of you and using that to shake off suspicion is profoundly suspicious coming form an inexperienced player. An inexperienced townie

should

feel the need to prove himself and provide an inkling of pro-town content. Malpascp has not.

His piggybacking on arguments against Gyro today is also substantially scummy. What happened to me being his top suspect? He'd used me as a free pass not to scum-hunt day 1. Now he's attempting to bandwagon on Gyro.

I couldn't find it, other than his OMGUS vote on Crypto; but as I already said, I don't find that scummy, just a terrible play.

No. You can't argue that this isn't scummy. If you bothered to do the meta I alluded to, you'll see that in one ongoing Malpascp calls OMGUS a scum tell. He OMGUSed in this game. QED.

I don't like statements like this (Gyro's) either. You're basically admitting your fault to the group so they can't raise awareness of it later on. You're setting yourself up for a behavior that some might consider scummy and calling yourself out on it before anyone else can. Just because you notice it and bring it to everyone's attention does not make it less scummy.

If he didn't apologize, someone (you) would bitch at him for not scum hunting. Your proposition here is valid, but using it as a point against Gyro at this stage is bogus.

---

The FOS on Kiku is laughable. You don't FOS players simply because they don't spoon-feed you analysis.

The FOS on Neto is somewhat reasonable, but I'm biased. I do think his statement that "we can take care of the rest after today" is a warning sign.

The FOS on me ... well, like I said, meta Malpascp for the game I'm with him in.

[crypto]

Also:

Will probably be on V/LA this weekend.

[crypto]

I think that perhaps the best play is to lynch Malpa and see what he flips. If he flips scum, I think that Foilist deserves some serious scrutiny. Otherwise, I'm not sure how to read it.

Whoa.

Unvote.

Not sure how to read it? Are you saying Malpascp and Foilist are the only players you suspect? Saying that otherwise you're "not sure how to read it" without mentioning other suspects looks exactly like you're setting up for a mis-lynch that you can follow up with a day where you can complain about how confused you are and excuse yourself from robust scum hunting.

[crypto]

Care to enlighten me on mals incredibly scummy behavior early on?

Win.

Withholding my vote, though. Only six to lynch, so I'm sure you guys can find another vote if you are hungry for a lynch in the next couple of days.

[crypto]

Er, that quote should have been—

You tell me. He was your second best lynch for day 1.

Walrus helmet:

xvart, you make some excellent points. This is indeed a very fast wagon.

Piggyback more, please.

And it looks like crypto may have been coaching kikuchiyo during the night with his aggression techniques.

Nice argumentation you got going there: 0% logic, 100% random speculation. I could say you've been taking lessons from Xvart on how to irrationally attack the proponents of a bandwagon (on one of your scum buddies).

Also, nice Chainsaw Defense, both of you. I don't think I've ever seen it executed to blatantly. And here was I thinking wiki tells are 99% useless.

[crypto]

Kiku, I'll probably wind up back on the wagon. I do want to lynch Malpascp despite Neto's post, but I'd rather there isn't another demented hammer while I'm on V/LA as a result of my vote putting Malpascp near L-1.

[crypto]

(Still V/LA.)

1. Kiku is town.
2. Malpascp is still a good lynch.
3. Is it just me, or do Foil's posts ALWAYS ignore or fly in the face of current discussion. I feel like he's constantly trying to distract from popular Malpascp suspicion. (Could be remembering it wrong; don't have the time to reread.)
4.

Unvote. Vote: Gyro.

Start fucking scum-hunting. Stop fucking echoing other players (in this case, echoing Neto—"Oh, the Malpascp lynch is a magic eight-ball that will tell us everyone's alignment").

[crypto]

You've been going for easy votes—e.g., Jester (lurker), Malpascp (lurker), Netopalis (blatant OMGUS on your part)—as well.

Why not put any pressure on someone who isn't easy to vote, someone who you think is scum perhaps?

So scum are never easy to vote, huh? Oh, and you haven't voted for easy players, either?

...

Hahaha.

If you are town then you are heavily mislead by your own suspicions.

You're scum trying to get all the easy votes while killing the off others at night to then towards the end of the day you seem to be just a mis-vote away from victory.

Rhetoric FAIL.

Why don't you think he's town?

[crypto]

Damn it, people. Why choose my V/LA for the flurry of activity?

I'm very tempted to just urge a hammer on Gyro, but just can't do it.

Unvote.

Need to reread this and let it simmer. We've already forced out one claim, so cut the shit and stop quick-wagoning players in rapid succession (I'm looking at you, Kiku).

[crypto]

Oh my God. If Raskol is scum he may have just outed Xvart, Walrus Helmet, Malpascp, and JereIC/Rhinox as town.

Ah well, that would be so sweet.

[crypto]

Uh....what?

Listing vig options. Granted, one of them at least would probably be scum. I was just ruminating.

[crypto]

Offering a better lynch with a thoroughly outlined case would help convince us. Something you haven't done all game ...

[crypto]

He just played the Stupid Card on both himself and his critic. Ooohh.

[crypto]

Raskol, assuming a nine town versus three scum setup, there are currently seven town and three scum. Two town deaths out of a day 2 lynch and two night 2 kills makes it five versus three. That's assuming one scumbag is nailed during that span of time. The vig test is a massive risk.

---

At least one of {foilist13, Gyro} is scum. Gyro claimed one-shot vigilante (rather creative claim, by the way, which strengthens its believability, but I'm still immensely skeptical) ...

Yeah, screw that. Let me put it this way: Foil's just got to be scum, or this game is upside down and I'm packing the bags.

Vote: foilist13.

Since we're approaching the We're Really Fucked stage of this game, I'm going to do this, too, though I've come to hate revealing town reads:

malpascp

guy0/afatchic/foilist13

Darkstrike_11/Raskol

U.N. Owen / Xvart

Gyro

walrus helmet

crypto

JereIC/Rhinox

Netopalis

kikuchiyo

Blue is a town read that could switch at any moment. Red is likely scum by process of elimination. Orange is the "These players could just be wicked good actors" factor.

---

Oh, and we are not lynching Gyro today. It simply is not going to happen.

[crypto]

He shouldn't kill anyone.

[crypto]

Last couple of pages ... I don't know, I skimmed most of it.

I'm gonna reread Ectomancer's day 1 iso. to make sure we aren't missing anything obvious, but Foilist13 still should be lynched today.

All the scum team squabbling and information BS and "HAI GUYZ DO WE LYNCH THE TOWN POWER ROLE CLAIM?" needs to stop. Foil is the play. All that needs to be worked out now is whether or not Gyro should kill someone tonight.

Oh, and Raskol, yeah, apparently I suck at math.

[crypto]

Still really unnerved by Walrus.

[crypto]

Also, this is old news but at least one of Gyro, Malpascp, and Walrus Helmet is scum.

[crypto]

I'm lazy. Was there anyone who wanted a Netopalis lynch at the end of day 1? Other than me.

[crypto]

Kiku, why did you go from a scum read to a town read on Neto overnight?

(Sorry for posting binge.)

[crypto]

D1 you wanted to hang Neto. Since the start of D2 you haven't wanted to hang Neto.

[crypto]

Stop talking and vote for yourself.

[crypto]

Why is it odd? The guy's scum. Let's get it done. His latest post doesn't help the case for Gyro's innocence, either.

[crypto]

Rhinox, who are your top suspects?

[crypto]

Time to cut the shit and do the thing. Everyone not voting for Foil should be voting for him.

[crypto]

Correct. Do it, precious.

[crypto]

CHOO-CHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[crypto]

What. The. Hell.

Hypocrite. Scum bucket. Flapper. Sophist. Butt face.

[crypto]

I thought butt face was pushing it, and flapper was a total non sequitur.

Though I guess the avatar justifies it.

[crypto]

Neto, it's more about the aspect where you make absurd leaps of logic. I think that's what Raskol's been saying. So I guess it all works out.

[crypto]

So am I. Except only sort of.

[crypto]

Gyro, you tried to vig-kill me?

What the hell?

[crypto]

Or

as opposed to a town doc or town roleblocker?

And let me rephrase Raskol's original question: Gyro, HOW do you know you were role-blocked?

[crypto]

Why did you choose me?

Why is doc protection not an option?

[crypto]

Gyro,

why did you target me

?

[crypto]

Kiku, why is no-lynch stupid?

[crypto]

Because I have a sneaking suspicion it will be avoided:

Gyro,

why did you target me

?

[crypto]

What prompted you to make a last-minute drawback?

Other than Kiku and I, who had you narrowed potential scum down to?

[crypto]

That's splendid, Gyro, but I'm more interested in your answers to my actual questions.

What prompted you to make a last-minute drawback?

Other than Kiku and I, who had you narrowed potential scum down to?

[crypto]

Who were your other top suspects? Me, Kiku, Neto, and that's it? Or more?

[crypto]

Gyro, who are your major suspects other than me, Neto, and Kiku?

[crypto]

Kiku, I don't get what your secrecy has to do with this game. It's only relevant for the players here in the next games they play.

[crypto]

Okay.

Scum

havingfitz
walrus helmet
Raskol
[gulf]
kikuchiyo
[gulf]
Gyro
[gulf]
Netopalis
xvart

Town

There, rough spectrum instead of individual lists. Very difficult to check off pro-town players this game. Xvart does look firmly town; he's all I got in that extreme. Kiku started out looking very town, but I'm not a fan of her play day 2. Netopalis looks like town because I think the coincidence of his lurker lynch slant in this game with his MD thread about kicking lurker ass is legitimate. Gyro I tentatively think is town because gunning for me is a wacko thing for scum to do.

Your turn, Raskol ...

[crypto]

Mega-FOS: kikuchiyo

(like, I wish I had two votes). WIFOM, my ass. Way to completely brush away 100% respectable accusations.

Neto brought up a wicked sick point about your hammer of Foilist. Earlier today I was thinking about the Rhinox night kill, and it was a

blatant

policy night kill—scum kill the pro-town replacement to ax out his point of view before he can unveil his reads in full. I hadn't connected it with your quick hammer, which also happened to ax out Rhinox's point of view. (Thanks for pointing it out, Neto.) Fits beautifully, no?

---

Netopalis, why do Gyro's posts look town to you.

---

Raskol, why Walrus Helmet?

Vote: Walrus Helmet.

Bang.

[crypto]

Balls.

Netopalis, why do Gyro's posts look town to you?

Fixed.

[crypto]

Also, Netopalis, why don't you "like Gyro's gunning for" me?

[crypto]

Rhinox did not have a lot of time to post. He was churning out fat posts and hadn't announced his reads yet. IIRC it was only a day or two or three. It doesn't matter if you had defense blowing in your direction. A scum team is a scum team, but that's not even the point; the point is you got rid of another town POV. And we all could tell Rhinox was a perceptive player.

It only "fits beautifully" if you convince yourself that it does.

This is the sort of icky rhetoric that revs up my scumdar.

---

Neto, Gyro targeting me is what makes me think he's town. I really think if he were scum (unless he's a lone serial killer), his teammates would coach him up and he'd claim to have targeted a more popularly suspicious player.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: kikuchiyo.

The hell with my Walrus experiment. Kiku is reading exponentially scummier by the post. I guess I'll just sit on my ass and say she and Raskol are both scum, slap-fighting.

[crypto]

Neto, I feel like you've been awfully swingy with your reads this game. You seem to follow other players' noses way too much.

[crypto]

Re: Neto. Shrug.

2. Occam's Razor. Do we have any other evidence of a roleblocker? No. Do we have any evidence that supports his claim? No. Were we convinced enough before the claim that he should be lynched? Yes. Is his claim the main reason he was not lynched? Yes. Do we have any evidence that supports his claim? No.

No. This is real Occam's Razor. Did the town have a power role? Yes: jailer, and possibly vigilante. Do towns with (multiple) power roles usually have to deal with roleblockers? Yes. Would it be more complex to build a setup that follows a different philosophy? Yes. QED.

Unvote. Vote: walrus helmet.

(I expect to be yelled at for expecting him not to have a life.)

[crypto]

Unvote.

Okay, time to kick ass and chew bubblegum. We are not racing to a lynch (or lack of) today. With 20/20 hindsight (ha), yesterday's speed and insanity and mis-lynch is kind of embarrassing. I'm hopefully going to do a bit of a reread when I get home and post some sort of analysis of the flow of the game, i.e., the bandwagons, suspicions, piggybacking, and so on. And we'll take it from there. I'm strongly opposed to a no-lynch, but regardless of that decision we

are

finding scum.

(Oh, and I really don't like Walrus' wagon on no-lynch, but I guess that's theory, so I'll just boohoo.)

RE: WALRUS HELMET

Yeah, I did ignore Netopalis. I remember seeing his question and being too lazy to respond. I voted for you because you've been my safe scum bet for some time now, even though I haven't had a case against you that would elevate you above a couple of other players in that respect. When I voted for you in that post where I mentioned wanting to vote for Kikuchiyo, I meant that I had a second vote so that I could vote for both of you at once. I wanted to (temporarily) expand the conversation to include you (as a potential interrogation target) without substantially distracting from the back-and-forth between Kiku and Raskol and the growing pile of crap around Gyro and all that. So I voted for you and counterbalanced it with a major FOS of Kiku.

However I disagree about trying to shut up Rhinox. That's far fetched and relies on too many assumptions, I think it's much more plausible that she was just going for a quick hammer.

Well, here's the deal. Scum love shutting up replacements as quickly as possible. Because replacements have yet to participate in the game, they are essentially aloof observers with little to no emotional baggage, so ideally their reads will be sharper than ours considering we've already spent time pointing fingers at each other, etc. Then there's the possibility that a replacement will simply catch something we overlooked, for whatever reason. So scum will want to knock them off, especially if they're known to be good at finding scum (I don't know if that applies to Rhinox; I've never read a game he's in), unless they're subbing for a really suspicious player.

That

is a popular mafia strategy. I do admit I can't off the top of my head make a convincing argument that that was the motivation for Kiku's hammer, but it's a funny coincidence that she did so relatively soon after he joined, and

before

he got many reads out. Granted, if I'm remembering it right, I was cheering on a lynch shortly after Rhinox started, so I'm also guilty of having been anti-information, albeit to a lesser degree because I didn't pull the hammer.

Could you clarify this, please? Also, define "MD" (just as a definition for a clueless newbie).

Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooool noooooooooooooooooooooooob. No, to be totally srs, Mafia Discussion, the sub-forum. Netopalis posted a thread about his frustration with chronic lurkers and either proposed or asked about actions that should be taken against them, or something like that.

Sorry, I like to take my time when I read/write posts. Plus when I took a 30 minute break you guys practically filled up a whole nother page.

Easy, Captain. I was mocking myself, not you.

[hr]50

quot;]Crypto, since you don't seem to like my earlier justification of my votes, here's a listing of my serious votes against players and the first times that I suspected them

No, I buy it.

---

Welcome to the game, Havingfitz. Who are your scum buddies?

---

Preview edit.

Not calling meta here, but you seemed to play rather well as town in that game.

This is a

non sequitur

and therefore a blatant appeal to emotion.

[crypto]

Yup, I am Symbol. Yet another fail login. When I'm done with the game I've been using that alt in, it's dying a horrible death.

[crypto]

Why?

[crypto]

Scum defend town all the time.

[crypto]

Yeah, but not in LyLo.

It's not LYLO.

[crypto]

Neto, I swear you've been okay with every single player's lynch.

[crypto]

Oh. Now that you quantify it, it doesn't look so bad. I agree; this game reeks of scum. But I feel like all my current games do.

O, woe is mafiascum.net! Woe is the loss of experienced players!

[crypto]

Naw, you're silly. I've voiced suspicion of you for some time since day 1, but I couldn't care less if other players were willing to follow me, and I can't be bothered to make a case at the moment. It'd be difficult and monumental. Right now the town is hunting big game (like Kikuchiyo).

[crypto]

You are all horridly anti-town, to the point where it's almost tempting to ask for a replacement to get rid of the headache and avoid the tally in the loss column.

Kiku and Raskol are still scum-slap-fighting.

Kiku: "Oh, now Raskol is less scummy! Fortunately, no one realizes that all I've ever done is argue about game theory and vig kills and the various degrees of Gyro's scumminess with him! I don't even know how we wound up at each other's throats. Oh, wait, yeah, I remember; it's because we've manufactured it. Shit, did I just say that aloud? Find me a rock to crawl under."

[crypto]

Because there has been an appalling lack of scum hunting this game (on my part as well). I do not approve of fluff followed by quick lynch followed by fluff followed by quick lynch followed by fluff followed by no lynch. Good decision making in LYLO requires ... um ... information ... and (gasp!) intelligence. Racing to a no lynch is a terrible idea. This town

will not

be able to pull it together in time to lynch scum three days in a row. Especially at this rate. Especially with the lack of town versus scum arguments present today.

I'd rather just go for all the marbles and string up Kiku today than continue to screw around like this.

Oh, and

FOS: Netopalis

for his vote. There's a wagon on no lynch that's gaining momentum, and he hopped right on to give it that cute extra push. I also don't like how it came right after what Kiku said in her post right above ...

But for integrity's sake—

FOS: Kikuchiyo, Raskol, havingfitz, Netopalis, Walrus Helmet.

Let's see if the smart kiddies work out what's wrong with that list.

[crypto]

Okay, look, you just outed yourself as cop. Please do so.

[crypto]

+townpoints

[crypto]

Are you the cop?

[crypto]

Much as I hate to spoon-feed the mafia kill choices, Neto is right on that note as well.

[crypto]

a. Well, it's a double-edged sword if I'm thinking about it correctly. Town has one less place to look today/tomorrow.
b. You became the obvious kill as of post 825.

I dunno. Whatever.

[crypto]

This is retarded and obstructive.

Hypo-N1: Guilty on Xvart.

Hypo-N2: Guilty on Xvart.

[crypto]

They're not supposed to be obstructive. Assuming a standard setup there are three scum out of the three remaining players. Let's say Xvart is the cop. He obviously has two innocents. Xvart himself is also innocent. That leaves five. We have a 60% chance of hitting mafia (and I'm obvious town, duh). So cut the shit and do the thing. We can go into cruise control for the victory right now, but this assclownery is fudging it up.

[crypto]

EBWOP: three scum out of the remaining EIGHT players.

[crypto]

Kiku and everyone else moaning over it, see post 843.

8 players
1 cop with 2 innocents = 3 innocents
8 – 3 = 5
between 2 and 4 mafia, usually 3
5 – 3 = 2 chances for a mis-lynch
5 – 2 = 3 chances for a mis-lynch
5 – 4 = 1 chance for a mis-lynch

Seriously. Hypo-cop is distinctly anti-town and there's no reason for it to benefit mafia. Our odds of roundhouse-kicking scum into oblivion RIGHT NOW are VERY GOOD if we've got a cop and three innocents.

[crypto]

Hypo results: (Even though I'm not sure what it will accomplish)

N1 - Innocent, Crypto
N2 - Innocent, Gyro

Apparently it makes it harder for the mafia, even though the cop is obvious.

In reality, it just confuses the town. It's a blatantly obstructive caper pulled by Raskol.

[crypto]

Also:

xvart: If you are cop and you have a guilty on me then you should claim. If you are cop and don't have a guilty on me, then you shouldn't be voting me as no-lynch gives town(and cop) another night to work.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Desperate scum.

[crypto]

Raskol, I'm clearly not the cop.

I'd take the risk that Xvart, who I have a rock-solid town read on, is lying in return for great odds at winning. Look at post 825. Scum don't plant stuff like that. I'm pretty sure no one was interested in lynching Xvart. If he were scum, he wouldn't have wormed his way into this situation and then refused to reveal his reads. As for him just fake-claiming as town (which is an intensely stupid move in the first place)—just, no. This is getting ridiculous.

Now, if he just completely didn't meant to imply what we all read out of it, then that's a different story, but I'd rather he'd tell the truth, for reasons given, than try to blend in (no longer possible) and probably get NKed anyway.

[crypto]

You are assuming xvart is cop. You are also assuming his results.

No reason to think otherwise until he returns.

No lynch increases those odds from 60%, no?

No, killing a confirmed townie does not help at all. That's why it's important to lynch today. Tomorrow we have one less townie.

This entire debate is just stupid. I can't believe no one is just accepting a fucking cop claim. Your strategies are so weak and farfetched ... ugh.

[crypto]

Argh, spammy posting. Sorry.

I just have a question for you though crypto: why does asking if the cop should give his results make xvart an obv-cop?

See below.

If you guys are really going to go No Lynch

would it be appropriate for

the

[/size] cop to

reveal his (or her...) information now?

The whole thing is pretty obvious. Scum don't overlook this. Keyword, upon review, is "the." I hadn't noticed it before, but now that I've gone back that article is just loaded with certainty. Really, though, the whole thing is worded like it's coming from that guy ...

I mean, it's the kind of thing I hear people say all the time regardless of their role. Hearing you jump on such an innocent question, it almost makes it seem like you were looking for a cop.

Oh,

yesssss

. More fuel to the Raskol-scum fire. You are really reaching, my friend. First of all, no, townies don't just flap around asking if the cop should claim during MYLO when the predominant sentiment is a no-lynch. Secondly, and more importantly, if it's such an obviously innocent role-unrelated question then you cannot attribute suspicion to me for "looking for a cop," because by your logic, Xvart is at least as likely to be vanilla townie or whatever.

Well, it's clear NOW that you're not a cop. I don't think it was clear before, which is why your hypo-claim was terrible play if you're town.

It's been clear the whole time. Don't play dumb, scum.

---

This is a wonderful turn of events. Lighting up scum like glitter on shit.

[crypto]

XVART IS GETTING KILLED TONIGHT UNLESS THERE IS A DOC OR UNLESS THERE IS ANOTHER COP CLAIM. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF WE HYPO-COP OR NO-LYNCH OR RANDOM-LYNCH OR LOL-LYNCH OR NETO-LYNCH OR CRYPTO-LYNCH OR ROFLCOPTER OR COMMIT SUICIDE EN MASSE.

[crypto]

WRT xvart, I really don't think he intended to imply that he was the cop. All he did was ask whether this would be a good time for cop to reveal if we had one. That's not even close to being a claim and I find you and Neto scummier for pushing on it (especially Neto).

He will have to tell us tomorrow whether he's really the cop or not, but right now it's better that nobody knows for sure.

AAAAHHHH. No. No. No. No. No.

We forfeit a town player by waiting until tomorrow to lynch. We have a shittier town:scum ratio. Scum will kill either Xvart or some other confirmed townie. Going from 5 townies and 3 scum to 4 townies and 3 scum with a no-lynch and a night kill WILL NOT INCREASE OUR CHANCES.

Unvote. Vote: Raskol.

[crypto]

Yay.

Unvote. Vote: kikuchiyo.

Kikuchiyo, Walrus Helmet, and Havingfitz have a 90% shot at being scum.

First of all, until your hypo-claim, no, there was nothing in thread to indicate you're not a cop.

Look, the moment Xvart made that post, his cop stock went up and everyone else's went down. Also, it's relatively clear I wasn't the cop by my responses to Xvart. If I wanted to discredit him via claim and counterclaim, I would have approached it a different way.

Second, the fact that it was an innocent role-unrelated question is exactly WHY you're suspicious. Just because he might not BE the cop doesn't mean you're not suspicious for jumping on something you thought wa a cop getting outed. Scum are more likely to be jumping at chances to find power roles. It's the LOOKING that's scummy, not the FINDING.

Just be cause ... why ... maybe ... uh—ah—er—be quiet, you're supposed to be confirmed town.

Third, the presence of the word "the" does not indicate that xvart is claiming cop. If we're going to play at literary analysis, though, he presence of the phrase "he or she" does indicate that xvart intended to give the impression that he doesn't know who the cop is.

Yup, "he or she" is intention. "The" is mental slip.

Is it because you don't like waiting?

Silence, hypocritical flapper scum bucket sophist. Those terms all apply now.

---

Post 866: Reading comprehension fail. Statistical analysis fail.

Scum: 3/8 becomes 3/7 OR 0.375 becomes 0.428. MAFIA GAINS STOCK.
Town: 5/8 becomes 4/7 OR 0.625 becomes 0.571. TOWN LOSES STOCK.
Confirmed town: 3/8 becomes 2/7 OR 0.375 becomes 0.286. FEWER CONFIRMED TOWNIES.
Town loses a

confirmed innocent

. Mafia is still in full force. It isn't about there simply being a higher percentage of players being scum.

Raskol: player fail.

[crypto]

That's why Xvart should just fucking confirm his coppiness so we can get on with the win.

Kikuchiyo is scum. She's gotten increasingly rabid. Ching-ching, monay.

[crypto]

Yes, Raskol. If he is not the cop, he needs to just

say so

, so we can call this whole numbskulled convo off.

[crypto]

Interesting. You do realize that I have more reason to be "rabid" as town in this situation than I do as scum, don't you?

No.

[crypto]

No lynch forces scum to make a hard decision. Prematurely "confirming" players is poor form and outing the cop is anti-town at best. You were upset with me for hammering the wagon you fully supported yesterday and now you'd rather lynch based on "random lynch" percentages than make a strategic play to force scums hand. Whatever.

Why don't you dump the rhetorical butchery and disprove me.

I've laid out why lynching you today is optimum play. The town's blindness to this is staggering.

[crypto]

Kiku, are you being deliberately dense? If we lynch today, then TOMORROW IS LYLO. If we don't lynch today,then TOMORROW IS LYLO. IT DOES NOT MATTER.

[crypto]

Preview edit: Kiku, what is your Raskol read, and why?

Unvote.

I go to sleep for nine hours and there’s been yet another flurry of activity in that time. That’s more than enough to persuade me to join in the play-it-safe camp and step as far away as possible from any L–0, even for a no-lynch.

I was about to say Xvart may be scum pulling a fast one on us, but Kiku beat me to the punch. She makes a valid and smart point, but it collides hard with my town read on him, but if he’s town he

MUST

clarify or revise or totally change or whatever his hypo-cop results before the end of day 3. And if Xvart’s not the cop, the real cop’s hypo needs to be legitimate, because if Xvart’s scum then we run the risk of losing the real cop tonight.

And yes, that last sentence is me saying I’m 98% sure there’s a cop in this setup. Cop, vigilante, and jailkeeper seem like a sensible combo for me. If there was no vigilante (or other non-cop town power role), I’d think it should be cop and doc. Correct me if I’m wrong, but jailer (along with roleblocker?) is supposed minimize setup swing. In one night one mafioso could be vigged and another could be investigated. So I could totally see a cop-jailer-vig-roleblocker setup, which could clear Gyro as well.

(Shrug.)

---

I still find the tone of Kiku’s posts scummy and I still have a scum read on her (a tentative read, but so are all my reads). Walrus’s post 894 is also succinctly good stuff in favor of her lynch. But she’s playing so fiercely that the behavioral hunch aspect of my read on her is turning into a big boat of WIFOM. Her play so schizophrenic, and yet she’s

so

emotionally invested … I don’t know, I’ll shut up.

Crypto is gung-ho for a lynch today and Walrus has reversed course in an anti-town direction.

I’m always gung-ho for a lynch. But I tend to find no-lynch arguments incredibly scum-driven. As for anti-town … well, I think we should just agree to

OMGUS

uh

steal each other’s worthless one-liners

ah

make empty attacks

er

lynch Kiku

… disagree? Crap.

So, Walrus Helmet’s post 894. I like it. Because it’s in agreement with me, of course. No, really, though, I’m starting to see Walrus as more and more town. He’s remained level-headed despite accusations by me and now Kikuchiyo and Raskol (though he’s less rabid than Kiku and I).

I'm not ready to answer that because it gives way too much info to the mafia.

Nooo! Dooon’t saaay thiiis!

Since you still have not claimed cop, your FOSes should be independent of whatever information you might’ve acquired.

Mod edit; tags fix'd

[crypto]

Wow. %$#@. I forgot smart quotes aren't plain text. Quote tags wrecked.

Not to distract from this scum-driven convo, but I'd love it if everyone posted his/her three-man scum team. Mine's changed.

kikuchiyo
havingfitz
Netopalis / walrus helmet

Forgot that having Walrus as town means Neto must be scum. That's a tough choice.

[crypto]

Thanks, Mod.

[crypto]

Neto, it hinges on the assumption Xvart is real and his "hypo" results are real.

havingfitz

Raskol

Xvart

Gyro

walrus helmet
Netopalis
kikuchiyo

Kiku and Havingfitz are fry-me obvious scum. So it's a tossup between you and Walrus for number three.

No lynch remains a damn stupid idea. We lose a confirmed town read and we gain zip.

[crypto]

He acted and reacted like a cop. And I'm fairly sure there is a cop in this game. Therefore ...

Seriously, though, just no-lynch. The majority is bent on it. I've lost interest in this lunacy.

[crypto]

Okay, I reread and I

guess

I can see his phrasing as something other than a slip. If he is the doc, though, he needs to speak up before night if his hypo results weren't his real results.

So obviously I've warmed up to no lynch as an acceptable route, but it still does not sit well with me.

[crypto]

I'm baffled at Gyro's seeming 180 about me. But whatever.

I'll have to reread it, but Raskol's case looks interesting. If we play along with it, I'm inclined to either no-lynch or lynch Havingfitz.

[crypto]

People, shut up about Gyro. I mean, interrogate him all you want, but he's town until further notice. The one thing is that GYRO CANNOT VIG-KILL TONIGHT. If he is going to insist on going against our judgment like he did yesterday, then we might as well lynch today, because I completely don't trust his judgment assuming he was telling the truth and did in fact try to kill me based on some unsupported hunch that doesn't even deserve the connotations of "hunch."

By default, scum shouldn't be busing in MYLO, especially when there are three of them. I guess it's possible, but it'd take some weird situation ... I don't know.

I think Havingfitz is 99% scum just by his posts; you don't even have to go into any analysis. Like, I'd be willing to just screw the no-lynch and hang him today. And I stick by my old meta tell about his OMGUS, by the way.

So let's lynch Havingfitz once this convo burns out, okay?

[crypto]

Scum has zero motivation to protect an actual town vig.

Keeping Gyro in the mix throws the town off balance because of how controversial and anti-town Gyro is.

[crypto]

Havingfitz, please post a list of players, whether or not you think each one is town or scum, and a few lines of analysis.

[crypto]

Vote: havingfitz.

[crypto]

Why the hell is Xvart clear? He didn't man up and claim cop.

However, I still maintain that no lynch is the best option today. We will gain extra information from a no lynch and there is absolutely no way in which a no lynch will hurt us.

Oh, yeah? Like what?

(Bangs head at Neto and his convo with Kiku. Files away another scum team possibility.)

[crypto]

(Continues banging head against wall.)

Neto. Either Xvart, Gyro, or Raskol is going to die tonight, unless of course the mafia tries to be clever and stupidly knocks off an un-semi-confirmed townie. If Xvart (legit cop, for argument's sake) is killed, we lose an investigation. If one of his hypo-innocents is killed, the investigation yields us a net gain of zero.

Basing lynches on night kills is tenuous and loaded with WIFOM, and is therefore a last resort. And

last resort

sure as hell ranks below scrapping the no-lynch and lynching Havingfitz or Kiku or Walrus or even you, as far as I'm concerned.

[crypto]

If Xvart is killed, it ends this whole debate over whether Raskol and Gyro are town or not based on his half-claim.

Gyro is really town. To me, jailkeeper suggests two offensive town power roles. One's cop. Other's vig.

Really, though, Neto, they'll go for Xvart if he isn't one of them. If they don't they're, idiots. Keeping him alive and letting him out his forthcoming result is not at all worth the WIFOM of him living. So, no, I still don't think there's much good we'll get out of a no-lynch as far as information goes.

[crypto]

(Black clouds roil. Crickets stop cricketing. The town lynches havingfitz.)