Mini 872: Mafia in Belgrove - That's All Folks

[Netopalis]

*stretches*

Vote: Kikuchiyo

Die, scum from my other game! Die!

[Netopalis]

Oh, right. Forgot about that. Sorry...

Unvote

[Netopalis]

I've never been a fan of RVS, but I'm also not a fan of theory questions either, since I think both ahve the same vulnerability - they're all null tells.

[Netopalis]

Just a side note, as it's a personal pet peeve of mine...Kikuchyo didn't choose to

lynch

guy0, he chose to

vote for

guy0.

[Netopalis]

I'm not sure that your failure to participate in the RVS does you Justice, Owen.

[Netopalis]

Well, to explain Owen's post, there's a character in the Agatha Christie novel named U.N. Owen who talks much like he does....

[Netopalis]

Sorry, meant to

Unvote: Kikuchiyo

[Netopalis]

1. How many games of mafia have you played? - On this site, 4. I've played a lot of games on other sites, but I don't have an exact number.

2. Do you prefer Mafia or Town roles? It really depends on the game, honestly. In some games, I really enjoy the investigative process of trying to ferret out the scum....and in other games, I really enjoy playing against the odds. It largely depends on who else is on my team, be it town or scum.

3. What is your favourite power role to have? Cop. Vigilante is prone to hurting the town more than it helps, a doctor's usefulness is spotty at best and most other roles are so rare to have that it really doesn't merit a discussion.

4. What is your opinion on crypto’s call for a wagon this early in the game?
I think he was probably joking, and I'm lax to seriously attack someone over a joke.

[Netopalis]

For the record, I think it's a really bad idea to lynch U N Owen just because he talks funny. That may just be the worst reason for a lynch I've heard.

[Netopalis]

Ahem? "Blindingly suspicious" to not want to lynch somebody because they sound pompous or their writing style is a bit weird? I think that's a bit overstating your case, Ectomancer. If U N Owen gives us more to work with to claim he is scum, I'll be right there with you voting for him - I just think that this is an incredibly weak case that I would feel ashamed to support.


That being said, I should probably note that I'm a law student. I tend not to accuse someone of being scummy unless I have a pretty good reason for it. Gut and posting style don't do that for me - failures of logic, bad arguments and distracting comments do.

[Netopalis]

Ecto, you're right, I apologize - I meant to say Crypto. I also agree that if Owen doesn't post content he should be lynched - the usual tells still apply.

[Netopalis]

You are all very silly people.

Jester: I understand what you're saying, but I feel that he's playing a character...thus being a null tell. We could get into a WIFOM argument over whether scum would be so blatant or not, but I think we need to reserve our opinions until we hear more from him.

[Netopalis]

Unvote, vote:Crypto

His erratic play bothers me.....

[Netopalis]

You don't have to justify a vote during the RVS

unless you imply that there is a serious reason for your vote.

Or if you're just hopping on a bandwagon. Which you are doing.

[Netopalis]

Crypto,
If you want a reaction, generally you want someone to post why they're innocent. Nobody accused Malpa of anything specific - therefore, how can he post a coherent case as to why he's not guilty of that? Your playstyle reminds me a lot of Franz Kafka's "The Trial" - people are expected to justify themselves against claims that they don't really understand or know about. If Malpa posts content and

then

he looks scummy, then sure, attack him for it and look for a reaction. However, he has not posted anything warranting your reaction. In fact, to me, it looks like you're trying to attack anyone who does anything that might possibly start a wagon in an attempt to just stay alive and end the day early. To me, that's rather scummy.

My vote stands on Crypto.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and also, Ecto - my earlier post in response to AFC should in no way be considered a defense of Crypto. Rather, it was an implied attack - he should have to justify it because he implied he had a reason. Likewise, AFC should have to justify it because he's hopping on a bandwagon.

[Netopalis]

And the result should always, theoretically, be the same - "Why are you voting me! Give some explanation!"

Voting without a reason is a worthless play and should be discouraged.

[Netopalis]

AFC: Honestly, I haven't found that scum attempt OMGUS that much - it's usually weak town. That being said, if you had said you were voting him because he OMGUS'd, I wouldn't have attacked you.

In re: Crypto, I still maintain that it's bad play, but I do appreciate the analysis of his play and understand what he was attempting to do.

Unvote: Crypto

Jere: I apologize, I didn't mean to misrepresent the Owen wagon, but I would ask that you see it from my perspective...Here we have a player with 4 posts who names himself after a serial killer from a famous murder novel. All of his posts talk like that character - his statement at the start about wanting to kill us all is just in line with his character's behavior as well, so I don't think it should be considered a scumtell. I have to ask - as scum, what would he achieve by doing this?

[Netopalis]

EBWOP: Ugh. In my last post, I meant to aim the 3rd paragraph to Jester not Jere. Sorry, I've been off my game as of late.

[Netopalis]

AFC - Yes, but if you're going to call something scummy, you're implying that it either is a freudian slip or that it is something that would advance the scum's game. Therefore, attacking something as scummy then refusing to explain why it advances the scum's game by calling it WIFOM is rather silly, IMHO.

[Netopalis]

Ecto: To who was your post directed?

Crypto: For the love of all that is good and holy, give me some analysis to work with! "This is a stupid argument" is not analysis. It is a statement. Deconstruct it, tell me why it is bad, do SOMETHING. I can't respond to simple assertions such as "X is scum", "Y argument is bad" or "Z is helpful to town."

And as for the accusation that I have went with the flow, I feel rather the opposite - I've went against the flow of public opinion for most of the time - against Owen's lynch, criticizing your play and criticizing AFC.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough, although I think that what Crypto's post actually accomplished is better than what it intended to accomplish: He intended to get reactions from one player, but we've started getting reactions from a variety of them.

[Netopalis]

Crypto: First of all, "erratic" is not a vague term. It has a very specific meaning. According to Webster's, it is "Having no fixed course" or "characterized by a lack of consistency." In other words, I felt that your play was lacking in any reason at the time, because I didn't understand what you were doing. Now that you've explained it, I understand it but do not agree with it. My later post did not say that fishing for reactions was good, but that the results of your actions accomplished it better than what you originally intended, contrary to what Ecto was saying. Further, I think that his "acceptance" of Kikychio's argument for RVS was not really saying that he subscribed to that philosophy, just an acknowledgment of it being the best argument for the opposing position that he has read as of yet. Finally, my backing out was not in response to Jester's backing out, it was because I begrudgingly understood what you were doing. Had I been online before Jester, I would have posted the same thing and you would be attacking him for "going with the flow". Finally, the fact that I understand what you are doing does not clear you of being scum, it merely means that there was at least something resembling logic behind your play, which was the problem that I originally had with you - your actions made no sense because I did not know what your hidden motivation was.

Ecto: To explain a bit, I unvoted Kikuchyo because it was a random vote. I voted for Crypto because I felt that his play was erratic and illogical. I unvoted him once he explained himself. I apologize if this wasn't exactly stated in each of my posts, I'll try to be a bit more explicitly specific with each of them in the future.

[Netopalis]

Ah, I see. Yeah, I'm still extremely tempted to vote Crypto, as I find his play very scummy, but I wanted to reward behavior which explains actions by unvoting to encourage others to explain their play as well. I try to play the game in an orderly and organized fashion, and I find players who don't explain themselves to be extremely hard to read. They also usually tend to be scum. Like I said, though...Crypto is still high on my list.

[Netopalis]

Jester's post is...odd, but not what I'd call scummy, just because I've done similar things. There's one player in particular that is absolutely terrible at the game, but who I always try to help out by explaining why he's wrong....I still do vote for him eventually, but I like to give a warning to newer players. Although, with Owen's statement that he's played 5-6 games on here, I don't know whether we should consider him new or not.

[Netopalis]

Crypto: As for your erratic play, I guess I should have explained it a bit better. The following post numbers refer to posts read in isolation: 3,4, 7 and 8. - After your 8th post, I post the erratic comment. These posts represent drastic changes in opinion for no real stated reason. To me, at the time, it looked as if your play was lacking in any general direction and that you were just eager to lynch somebody. To me, that reeks of scum. The last two points about Owen and fishing are really differences in style - my style directly opposes them, but I do understand the theory behind them - I'll just agree to disagree on those points for now, since an argument over them would take several pages and would really go nowhere.

Ecto: I understand what a scummy statement is, but I feel that it's more important to tell the truth than to lie in an attempt to look "more town". Also, if you'll notice, Crypto is giving us more than enough to work with now - he's explaining his posts and reasoning, making logical criticisms of other players and is generally improving. Therefore, I consider my unvote to have achieved the desired effect - he has changed his actions in a way that is beneficial to the town. Honestly, the more I hear from him now, the less I'm suspecting him, since it seems that he actually does have a plan.

[Netopalis]

I am not an alt, I previously played on a site called Acumencia which sadly closed down...it was a site for forum games like Mafia and other puzzles, but sadly it never really got to be that big. I also meant that there was a drastic change between post combo 3 and 4 and between post combo 7 and 8. Your first serious post didn't give a lot of meaning behind it, nor did your subsequent switch. To me, the two actions seemed to imply something that would be a general theme of your play. I'm pleasantly surprised to see that it's not.

[Netopalis]

I didn't say that I don't suspect him now, just that his posts are moving me in the opposite direction because now he's posting stuff that makes sense. And no, but now that you mention it, he hasn't posted in a while...

[Netopalis]

Oh, and Crypto...It's a tough question. Like I said, it's really not my style, but I have seen other players doing it, so I'm not sure. I think that posting votes without reasoning is anti-town, but I don't think reaction fishing is...One can be done without the other.

[Netopalis]

Not if done without posting unexplained votes. Yes, posting unexplained votes is scummy. I believe that I said that above.

[Netopalis]

Meh, I'd rather have him replaced than lynched, if it came to that...

[Netopalis]

Mod: Can we get a prod on him? It's been 4 days...

[Netopalis]

Might as well send one to Walrus Helmet too, Mod.

Incidentally

FOS: Malpa

for his lack of posting anything of substance. Note that this is completely unrelated to the prior wagon on Malpa.

[Netopalis]

Mainly, yes, that scum do it more than townies. I've been in a few games where scum do that, are challenged and then point to the reaction as a reason to vote. When that person gets lynched, they blame it on being the first day and come out smelling like roses.

[Netopalis]

I said it above - in the post immediately prior to yours, actually. I find that scum do it more often than townies do. Scum can use it as a tool to attack a pro-town player without any real justification - they vote them, watch for a reaction and then use either the concern or lack thereof to build a case.

A better way to reaction-fish would probably be to ask questions or wait for someone else to slip up before attacking.

In either event, though, I don't feel that reaction-fishing does that much as most players who have an idea of what they're doing will simply ignore any unsubstantiated claims and move on.

[Netopalis]

Additionally, do you mind if I ask why you're wasting my time asking me to repeat myself? You've done it twice now.

[Netopalis]

Ok, Crypto, I've said this three times now. Don't ask me to repeat myself again, because I'm not going to. It allows scum to make easy cases which lead to mislynches. Let me say it slower:
It
allows
scum
to
make
easy
cases
which
lead
to
mislynches.

And now in Russian...
Оно позволяет мафии сделать легкие случаи для того чтобы mislynch.

And, finally, in pig latin:
Itay alloways afiamay otay akemay easyay asescay whichay eadlay otay islynchesmay.

Can I possibly make myself any clearer, Crypto? Should I perhaps try looking to dead languages to make my points? Should I perhaps engrave my statements in gold, dip them in guacamole and deliver them to your doorstep with a plate of caviar and a pile of red snappers while dressed in a clown suit and singing the theme song from "The Facts of Life?" Would that make things easier to understand, Crypto?

[Netopalis]

Due to the fact that I only recently joined the site, I only have 2 completed games, and neither of these are a good indicator. Due to the current game rule, I can't link you to games in progress. Finally, I'm not going to spend hours poring over the newbie queue just to prove a point.

How does voting without a reason make the mafia's job easier? I should think it was pretty obvious. Was it found in this quote?

Mainly, yes, that scum do it more than townies. I've been in a few games where scum do that, are challenged and then point to the reaction as a reason to vote. When that person gets lynched, they blame it on being the first day and come out smelling like roses.

Or was it in this one?

I said it above - in the post immediately prior to yours, actually. I find that scum do it more often than townies do. Scum can use it as a tool to attack a pro-town player without any real justification - they vote them, watch for a reaction and then use either the concern or lack thereof to build a case

Or maybe it should be found here?

It allows scum to make easy cases which lead to mislynches.

If you listen to Crypto, he'd have you believe that I'm ignoring the opportunity to clarify myself to the town. Really, though, that's not what he's doing. Essentially, he knows that if he asks me the same question over and over again, I'll object to it and that he could construe me to be seen as unhelpful.

Unvote, vote: Crypto

Allow me to turn the tables, Crypto. Why do you feel the need to make me repeat myself 4 times? I say 4 because I do explain this somewhat more obliquely earlier. I asked you this earlier, by the way, and you didn't really respond. Can you clarify this a bit for us? Can you make yourself any clearer? I'd really like to know. You see, I have this strange, incredibly odd fascination with requiring

reasons

in order to act, and I like having them around. Humor me, would you? All I want to know is why you feel that asking me to repeat myself repeatedly and my subsequent getting a bit ticked over it is scummy. Just a little bit of information wouldn't hurt, you know?

[Netopalis]

Oh, and just in case I really wasn't explicit enough with the above three cases, it's because the following:

If we allow people to make attacks without reason, then we allow for unjustified attacks.
Any response to one of these votes can be construed as scummy - either action OR inaction.
Mafia know this and know that they can use it as a tool to get rid of a town player for free.
Ergo, it can be a tool of the Mafia.

[Netopalis]

Alright, fine. I'm sorry that I didn't justify my unvote well enough for you all, which is apparently a cardinal sin around here. I told you why I did it - you can agree with my motivations or not, but continuing to yell at me over it isn't going to magically make some other reason or justification appear out of thin air.

Right now, I do suspect Crypto again. I didn't for a little bit because he was starting to make sense, but now I think that he's continually nitpicking on minutae in order to get a lynch up and *not* because any of the stuff he talks about is actually scummy. I also feel that he's derailing the town.

Second pick: Gyro. Even though he hasn't posted much, both posts are basically attempts to provide discussion without actually saying anything. He essentially relates the state of the game with a small amount of commentary, never really going out on a limb to back up his opinions. He also seems to automatically go with whatever the current prevailing mood is.

Finally, maybe I am wrong about the reaction fishing thing. I am a fairly new player on this site, and the entire culture and method was much different where I played before. I still think that it's a bad play....and I think that, in general, bad play is scummy. That being said, since I've reiterated my reasons 6 times now, I'm not going to do so once again because, again, there will be no new reasons magically appearing out of thin air. It's not like I've been holding back any arguments.

[Netopalis]

Firstly, if you read the game that ABR and I were in together, you'll find that I was largely attacking him for voting

without having read the thread

, something which he openly admitted to on page two and never recanted. He intentionally played that game poorly. Perhaps I was colored somewhat by that game, but for me, it seems that logical play has always benefited the town.

In response to your list:
1) A vote switch alone is not an attack. What I am saying is that either reaction that the voted party gives will be construed as scummy and either jumped and lynched that day or used as justification for a later lynch, regardless of their alignment.
2) See above.
3) I'm not so much concerned about a quicklynch 4 pages in as I am coloring a townie as scum and slowly building a case over the course of the entire day.
4) See above

And I understand your point here, but I still maintain that, more often than not, lynches arising from random votes are mislynches which I suspect are at least partially orchestrated by the mafia.

Your argument breaks down here, though. You say that this is not scummy, but you also say that anything can be scummy.

Also, just because something is standard procedure for someone doesn't make it not scummy. Someone may just have a scummy playstyle, something which I feel that Albert illustrates in spades.

Finally, even if you disagree with my game theory, I fail to see how this disagreement = scummy.

[Netopalis]

I'm willing to drop it, since this is getting us nowhere. While I still think Crypto is scum, this entire discussion is wholly unproductive. Looking back, I do understand that perhaps my arguments weren't what they should have been. As I mentioned in an earlier post, what do you all think of Gyro? I think that a few of his posts are more than a bit suspicious....Specifically the way that he never actually says anything in the few posts that he does have.

[Netopalis]

Odd that it would be OMGUS considering I brought it up against you first.

[Netopalis]

You know what, Crypto? Let's settle this like real men. With a chess game. Shall I start a thread in TWSOGMM?

[Netopalis]

Kikuchiyo: Continued discussion would be unproductive because we're derailing into theory discussions that won't really get us anywhere. The discussion was helpful up to the point where it turned into an argument about playstyle.

[Netopalis]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record....

You imply above that you want to FOS me. Why is that?

[Netopalis]

A lot has happened between now and then, and I thought your reasoning may have changed. I'm not getting defensive and I'm not attacking you, I'm just asking you to explain yourself.

[Netopalis]

Ok, let me put it this way: If he FOSd me on page 6, there's no point on doing it again on page 8 unless something changed. I'm trying to get him to articulate his reasoning.

[Netopalis]

assuming you'd get upset @ the fos. you're being overly defensive which doesn't look good for you.

To me, this is him saying that he would renew his FOS but that he thought I would get defensive about it.

[Netopalis]

Then why would he mention it if he didn't want to renew it?

[Netopalis]

Gyro. Rather useless posts which sound mildly scummy means that even if it is a mislynch, it's not a terrible one.

[Netopalis]

Firstly, in defense of Crypto, I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the tendency of people on this site to vote for people or suspect them over jokes. I find it to be a null tell at best. Humor is not a scumtell.

I predictably do agree with a lot of other things by Xvart, though. I didn't want to bring it up myself, but it was pretty much as if Gyro said "I'd do this, but you'll flip out...", then I made a perfectly rational and calm question, which was followed by an accusation of flipping out. I'm curious as to what I could have done to

not

flip out in his eyes there.

In re: Gyro: I only really got angry at one point during my discussion with Crypto - that is at the point where I had been asked to rehash the same point 4 times. I hardly think that it warrants a supposition that I would flip out at any instant to attack you. I also really dislike how you seem to be taking the backing up of a person's arguments to be scummy, regardless of whether that person's role is known or not.

[Netopalis]

Netopalis, you still think reaction-fishing like I did is anti-town?

Is fishing for reactions scummy? Is posting unexplained votes scummy?

What do you mean by "scummy"? That in your experience, scum do whatever action more than town? Or something else?

...but why are unexplained votes anti-town/scummy? Also, what are the alternatives you would recommend for reaction fishing?

Why/how does the function in and of itself negatively affect the town or positively affect the mafia?

[Netopalis]

Crypto is being rather petty overall, I think....But we're not going to go down that road again. For now, I'm becoming increasingly convinced of Gyro's scumminess....Reasons stated in the last 3 posts I made in re: him.

Unvote, vote: Gyro

[Netopalis]

(I'm the law student, incidentally)

[Netopalis]

Why do you think he is scum?

Also: Crypto, no apology needed on language. I feel the exact same way.

Malpa: Post, die or be replaced. We want reasoning behind your suspicions, too.

[Netopalis]

I'm not asking you to post this very second, I'm asking you to post more than once every 3 days.

[Netopalis]

That's a bit hasty, don't you think? Not that I disagree - Malpa is an excellent play today, but shouldn't we hear what he has to say first, no matter how incomprehensible?

[Netopalis]

In that case, fair enough...I can certainly understand voting and unvoting as a prod to do or not do a certain action.

[Netopalis]

Crypto if what I just read is true I finally got the answer to the first question I asked. Is it because of a mess I left when you replaced me? You won!

Uh....ongoing games rule much? He never said that he had actually lynched Malpa in the other game.

[Netopalis]

Owen was replaced by xvart.

[Netopalis]

Jester: In your opinion, who is the best play today? Gyro or Malpa?

[Netopalis]

An accurate summation of the events of the game since your last post. Why don't you tell us what you think about it? Some analysis? Something beyond what anybody who read the thread could have told us?

[Netopalis]

It's called information without analysis - it doesn't help town and it helps scum continue in the game without actually saying anything of import. Considering your lurkish history, it's definitely something to watch for.

Also: Opportunistic much with Malpa?

[Netopalis]

He's jumping on the nearest available wagon with steam without providing reasoning. He's trying to avoid the lynch by going "Hey, look over here!" and running in the other direction.

Not that this clears Malpa...just saying.

[Netopalis]

I've already posted reasoning on Gyro, although again for reasons previously stated, I would support a Malpa lynch.

Kikuchiyo, why do you suspect Jester?

[Netopalis]

If you don't have time to play, don't sign up for 7 games at once.

[Netopalis]

Since it is impossible to get Malpa forcibly replaced and since Gryo seems to have improved himself somewhat in my mind (Still scummy, but not as much), I'm switching my vote over to Malpa. We're going to get nowhere while he's still around, he'd be terrible in an endgame situation and even if he's not mafia, he's a decent policy lynch.

unvote, vote:malpa

[Netopalis]

My policy lynch statement doesn't preclude the idea that Malpa is scum. I felt that he was rather scummy ANYWAY - his posts show a clearly defensive tone when he really wasn't under that much attack - a general sign of scummishness. Further, I'm guessing that the mod's threshold for replacement will be low and Malpa will be able to meet that with a 2-paragraph post every 3 days.

[Netopalis]

My answers to all 3 of your questions can be summed up in two answers.

1) Honestly, I don't see much difference between rushing to a bandwagon and rushing to a lynch. While the intent may be different, the results are often the same.

2) The two reasons you give for the Malpa wagon are not mutually exclusive. I want to lynch Malpa BOTH because I find him scummy AND because I find him incredibly useless.

[Netopalis]

Also, third the Malpa replacement request.

In fact....

Vote to Replace: Malpascp

[Netopalis]

Crypto: I knew that my vote wasn't binding, game-wise - I was using it to emphasize my point in a quick, bolded bullet point that he can see easily.

[Netopalis]

I really don't think you can count Malpa's posts as a full post. .5 at the very most. Even that is stretching it.

[Netopalis]

Yeah. I think this speaks for itself.

[Netopalis]

*shocked look* But....but he doesn't like it if people ask for *reasons* behind his vote!

[Netopalis]

Well....I don't really want to start into this again, so I won't. But I'd still like some reasoning on Jester.

[Netopalis]

I gave reasons on Gyro. Useless posts that are essentially active lurking and overly defensive behavior are the highlights. And no, I'm not 100% convinced of it. I'm pretty much never 100% convinced of anyone's guilt in Mafia. I am in a game right now where someone

claimed scum on day 1 and was town

. I find it suspicious when people are so hardline as to be 100% certain of anything unless they have an investigative role.

Also, as for piggybacking, I think that everyone else would agree that I've stuck my neck out more than my fair share of times.

You do have some good points on Jester, though. I'm still happy with my Malpa vote, but I can definitely see where you're coming from.

[Netopalis]

I cant participate when you want
As you look so informed, you know I dont spam on my other games too
I simply joined the game in a bad season
Also Im from Portugal so posting alone is a bit less funny than talking
But im goin to post a bit more this weekend

_______________________________________-
What can I say?
Kill the newbie guy if you want.
I simply cant afford arguments to comment every single word you say, I like to be sinthetic.
Also, my school tests just finished today, so tomorrow I will probably write some paragaphs if needed
For now:

unvote

Incidentally, these two posts are the main things that I think speak in favor of Malpa as scum and not just inactive newbie. Both have the classic "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!" that scum players, especially new scum players, often use to try to divert attention to their attackers.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, that's another thing...As Gyro said, we only have a bit of time before the deadline. The only person that we're all at least marginally for is Malpa....We definitely DO NOT want to end up no-lynching today.

[Netopalis]

Kikuchiyo: Maybe it's reluctant to take off because I'm not in the mafia?

[Netopalis]

[quote=My substantive pro-town contributions]
Ahem? "Blindingly suspicious" to not want to lynch somebody because they sound pompous or their writing style is a bit weird? I think that's a bit overstating your case, Ectomancer. If U N Owen gives us more to work with to claim he is scum, I'll be right there with you voting for him - I just think that this is an incredibly weak case that I would feel ashamed to support.
____________
Crypto,
If you want a reaction, generally you want someone to post why they're innocent. Nobody accused Malpa of anything specific - therefore, how can he post a coherent case as to why he's not guilty of that? Your playstyle reminds me a lot of Franz Kafka's "The Trial" - people are expected to justify themselves against claims that they don't really understand or know about. If Malpa posts content and then he looks scummy, then sure, attack him for it and look for a reaction. However, he has not posted anything warranting your reaction. In fact, to me, it looks like you're trying to attack anyone who does anything that might possibly start a wagon in an attempt to just stay alive and end the day early. To me, that's rather scummy.

My vote stands on Crypto.
_________
Oh, and just in case I really wasn't explicit enough with the above three cases, it's because the following:

If we allow people to make attacks without reason, then we allow for unjustified attacks.
Any response to one of these votes can be construed as scummy - either action OR inaction.
Mafia know this and know that they can use it as a tool to get rid of a town player for free.
Ergo, it can be a tool of the Mafia.
___________
Alright, fine. I'm sorry that I didn't justify my unvote well enough for you all, which is apparently a cardinal sin around here. I told you why I did it - you can agree with my motivations or not, but continuing to yell at me over it isn't going to magically make some other reason or justification appear out of thin air.

Right now, I do suspect Crypto again. I didn't for a little bit because he was starting to make sense, but now I think that he's continually nitpicking on minutae in order to get a lynch up and *not* because any of the stuff he talks about is actually scummy. I also feel that he's derailing the town.

Second pick: Gyro. Even though he hasn't posted much, both posts are basically attempts to provide discussion without actually saying anything. He essentially relates the state of the game with a small amount of commentary, never really going out on a limb to back up his opinions. He also seems to automatically go with whatever the current prevailing mood is.

Finally, maybe I am wrong about the reaction fishing thing. I am a fairly new player on this site, and the entire culture and method was much different where I played before. I still think that it's a bad play....and I think that, in general, bad play is scummy. That being said, since I've reiterated my reasons 6 times now, I'm not going to do so once again because, again, there will be no new reasons magically appearing out of thin air. It's not like I've been holding back any arguments.

___________
Firstly, if you read the game that ABR and I were in together, you'll find that I was largely attacking him for voting without having read the thread, something which he openly admitted to on page two and never recanted. He intentionally played that game poorly. Perhaps I was colored somewhat by that game, but for me, it seems that logical play has always benefited the town.

In response to your list:
1) A vote switch alone is not an attack. What I am saying is that either reaction that the voted party gives will be construed as scummy and either jumped and lynched that day or used as justification for a later lynch, regardless of their alignment.
2) See above.
3) I'm not so much concerned about a quicklynch 4 pages in as I am coloring a townie as scum and slowly building a case over the course of the entire day.
4) See above

And I understand your point here, but I still maintain that, more often than not, lynches arising from random votes are mislynches which I suspect are at least partially orchestrated by the mafia.

Your argument breaks down here, though. You say that this is not scummy, but you also say that anything can be scummy.

Also, just because something is standard procedure for someone doesn't make it not scummy. Someone may just have a scummy playstyle, something which I feel that Albert illustrates in spades.

Finally, even if you disagree with my game theory, I fail to see how this disagreement = scummy.
__________
I'm willing to drop it, since this is getting us nowhere. While I still think Crypto is scum, this entire discussion is wholly unproductive. Looking back, I do understand that perhaps my arguments weren't what they should have been. As I mentioned in an earlier post, what do you all think of Gyro? I think that a few of his posts are more than a bit suspicious....Specifically the way that he never actually says anything in the few posts that he does have.
__________
Firstly, in defense of Crypto, I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the tendency of people on this site to vote for people or suspect them over jokes. I find it to be a null tell at best. Humor is not a scumtell.

I predictably do agree with a lot of other things by Xvart, though. I didn't want to bring it up myself, but it was pretty much as if Gyro said "I'd do this, but you'll flip out...", then I made a perfectly rational and calm question, which was followed by an accusation of flipping out. I'm curious as to what I could have done to not flip out in his eyes there.

In re: Gyro: I only really got angry at one point during my discussion with Crypto - that is at the point where I had been asked to rehash the same point 4 times. I hardly think that it warrants a supposition that I would flip out at any instant to attack you. I also really dislike how you seem to be taking the backing up of a person's arguments to be scummy, regardless of whether that person's role is known or not.
__________
That's a bit hasty, don't you think? Not that I disagree - Malpa is an excellent play today, but shouldn't we hear what he has to say first, no matter how incomprehensible?
____________
It's called information without analysis - it doesn't help town and it helps scum continue in the game without actually saying anything of import. Considering your lurkish history, it's definitely something to watch for.

Also: Opportunistic much with Malpa?
_______________
He's jumping on the nearest available wagon with steam without providing reasoning. He's trying to avoid the lynch by going "Hey, look over here!" and running in the other direction.

Not that this clears Malpa...just saying.
________________
Since it is impossible to get Malpa forcibly replaced and since Gryo seems to have improved himself somewhat in my mind (Still scummy, but not as much), I'm switching my vote over to Malpa. We're going to get nowhere while he's still around, he'd be terrible in an endgame situation and even if he's not mafia, he's a decent policy lynch.

unvote, vote:malpa
_______________
My policy lynch statement doesn't preclude the idea that Malpa is scum. I felt that he was rather scummy ANYWAY - his posts show a clearly defensive tone when he really wasn't under that much attack - a general sign of scummishness. Further, I'm guessing that the mod's threshold for replacement will be low and Malpa will be able to meet that with a 2-paragraph post every 3 days
_________________
I gave reasons on Gyro. Useless posts that are essentially active lurking and overly defensive behavior are the highlights. And no, I'm not 100% convinced of it. I'm pretty much never 100% convinced of anyone's guilt in Mafia. I am in a game right now where someone claimed scum on day 1 and was town. I find it suspicious when people are so hardline as to be 100% certain of anything unless they have an investigative role.

Also, as for piggybacking, I think that everyone else would agree that I've stuck my neck out more than my fair share of times.

You do have some good points on Jester, though. I'm still happy with my Malpa vote, but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
____________
[/quote]

I'd have included some stuff from the badgering that I took from Crypto, but I don't want to start again. I'm hoping that this will show that I've made significant contributions towards the advancement of the game.[/quote]

[Netopalis]

Crypto: You've never explained why you are opposing a Malpa lynch. He's not getting replaced, the Mod has said as much. I'll go for Jester too, but I find your defense of him extremely odd.

My vote on Gyro was NOT an emotional OMGUS. A number of players were against Gyro as well for his odd, erratic and defensive behavior. I still think he's quite scummy, although support for that position seems to have dried up.

My vote on Malpa was NOT opportunistic. I was one of the first people to attack him. When I first supported his lynch, there was only one vote on him, a holdover from afatchic. After asking the mod about replacement, I started pushing harder for his lynch. I'm not sure exactly where you're getting the idea that I'm just piggybacking.

[Netopalis]

Ok, fine. We can go with Jester then. I think that both are worthy candidates.

Unvote, vote: Mr. Jester

That's four...

[Netopalis]

BTW,

Mod: Prod to Jester? He's not posted in 4 days...

[Netopalis]

If he's up for replacement and we have time to wait on that replacement, then sure, I'm up for waiting.

That being said, deadline's coming up. 24 hours to respond to the prod leaves 2 days for Faraday to both find a replacement and for that replacement to reread and post thoughts. The prospect of Jester being replaced is a point in favor of a malpa lynch vs. a Jester lynch, though, I think.

[Netopalis]

Wasn't going to ask you to repeat the case, but I am curious as to why you find it wishy-washy? I thought I was fairly firm in it. My only caveat is that if he's replaced, that would be better, but given the amount of time that we have....not really realistic.

[Netopalis]

2 more votes, 2 more days....here's hoping we make it. If you're reading this and haven't voted, please do so - we're in danger of no-lynching.

[Netopalis]

Not a lynch - it's at L-1.

[Netopalis]

Ugh. I missed Foilist13's vote when I was reading earlier....

[Netopalis]

Well, I doubt that Jester would have been back to claim anyway, so I don't know that it matters that much, in the end. Besides, even if he HAD claimed doc, I doubt that we would have been able to get a different wagon together.

[Netopalis]

...Was that a right knuckle of suspicion?

Ought I to be offended?

[Netopalis]

Gyro: I've found that, generally, asking why the mafia killed someone is WIFOMy. It could have been that they felt that Ecto was a threat, it could have been that they thought he wouldn't be protected by a potential doc, it could have been that they were tired of having so many players whose name or shortened name ends with the letter "o"....who knows. Speculation on the point doesn't get us very far, though.

I'm still not a fan of Malpa. I'd really, really like to see some decent content from him today.

Crypto: Why are you FOSing Xvart? Anything in particular?

[Netopalis]

Your previous statement indicated inside knowledge, though. Generally, "I have reason to believe" is a fairly strong statement....

[Netopalis]

What a...bizarre start to the day. This is going to merit a reread...

[Netopalis]

The flu affected your ability to read through the thread?

Crypto...that's rather harsh. I mean, honestly....

[Netopalis]

Crypto: No, but you implied that he never had it to begin with. Honestly, that's pretty harsh.... Not necessarily scummy, but I think it does cross a few lines of good sportsmanship.

[Netopalis]

See, that's something you should have said up front, rather than just saying you didn't believe he was really sick.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* It's a turn of phrase, but it is one which is conventionally used in the sense that the person saying it has hidden, higher or not-well-known knowledge about the subject at hand. But I think we have bigger fish to fry than this little phrase.

[Netopalis]

Some thoughts:

First of all, I think that I'd like to ask the mod a question regarding Malpa. In your rules post, you say that if you need to keep prodding a player, you'll just replace. Is Malpa approaching that level? If not, I think that he should be scrutinized as a candidate for lynch. If so, I'd rather see him replaced.


Second, I'd like to take a look at foilist13. One of the more common scumtells that I look at, and one that I think is among the more effective, is looking for a player who is attempting to build on town suspicions against other townies. Foilist has made 2 votes in this game thusfar. In the first, he was the 4th member on the bandwagon against Mr. Jester. In the second, he hopped on Xvart's posts against Jester. I also don't like the potential rolefishing post. Personally, I think that his play is rather scummy and deserves at least a bit of scrutiny.

[Netopalis]

Nah, I don't know that Xvart is a townie. I'm just saying that the pattern is similar.

[Netopalis]

EBWOP: I think this is definitely worth a vote.

Unvote, vote: Foilist13

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that the attack pattern was similar, not that I knew anything about Xvart's alignment. We DO know Jester's alignment, and that is what my sentence regarding alignment was referring to.

[Netopalis]

Malpa: I'd really like to hear more from you than just that. Give us some reasoning and logic. Tell us who you suspect and why. I'm about this close to pushing for your lynch if you keep pressing on with your attempts to avoid replacement through sparse posting. Either replace or contribute.

[Netopalis]

Well, honestly, I don't know what else to do with him. I don't feel that he's the best lynch candidate for today...but I do feel that he's scummy and is a hindrance to our winning the game.

[Netopalis]

Foilist: Perhaps I didn't state what I meant explicitly enough. You hopped on existing town bandwagons

without posting additional reasoning or explaining why you were acting

. I'd like you to explain why you're voting for who you are voting.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough, I suppose. I guess it's easy to pull the bandwagoning argument now, but you are indeed right about the time crunch. I am satisfied with this explanation for now.

Unvote

Now, on to the next scummiest player: Malpa.

Vote: Malpascp

Can we get some content, please? Anything?

[Netopalis]

Meh, both for the good of this game and the good of the site as a whole, I am adopting a new approach: Lynch all intentional lurkers.

[Netopalis]

I think that perhaps the best play is to lynch Malpa and see what he flips. If he flips scum, I think that Foilist deserves some serious scrutiny. Otherwise, I'm not sure how to read it.

[Netopalis]

Agreed. We can take care of the rest after today, but Malpa absolutely must go.

[Netopalis]

I concur with what Crypto said and would like to add that if Malpa were scum, there would really be no good way for us to know due to his lack of reasonable posting. We all had an equal chance of being scum, so it's entirely possible that he is. I'm guessing that, due to the way that the town has been scattered and at each other's throats during day 1, the scum is probably a bit more inactive than in most games.

Also, I take exception to the argument that I was going with the easy route through this game. I have been one of the more vocal players and have taken a number of unpopular stances. There are other criticisms that can be made against me, but I think that this one should be disregarded.

[Netopalis]

Crypto: Sorry, I missed your post when I posted earlier. I mean that, in my mind, Foilist's play is closely linked to Malpa's due to their actions yesterday. If Malpa flips scum, then I think we need to seriously scrutinize their interractions. If Malpa flips town, though, I'm not sure how we should examine his actions. He could be telling the truth or he could be avoiding the lynch of an inactive in hopes of them making it to the endgame and screwing it up.

[Netopalis]

That's not really confirmable. It could be the mafia's kill. They could both target the same person. The doc could protect whoever the mafia targeted. There are a whole host of situations in which a vig claim isn't confirmable.

[Netopalis]

Xvart: I don't think that any of us would have advocated lynching Malpa before hearing his claim. We may silently feel that there is no real claim that could exonerate him, but I doubt that any of us would have honestly said to go ahead before he even shows up. I do understand your points against Kikuchyo, but I guess that my point is that this shouldn't be considered a hasty lynch, just a hasty bandwagon up to L-1.

[Netopalis]

Excellent points about Gyro - I still do find him to be incredibly scummy, as per my previous posts. I would be perfectly happy with either a Malpa lynch (for reasons I've explained earlier) or a Gyro lynch, although I still think that Malpa is a better play today because we'll be able to analyze Gyro in a pinch, but we'll still have this same stupid argument again if we're trying to analyze Malpa. Plus, if Malpa was scum and they won, I think I'd be banging my head against a desk all week.

[Netopalis]

Foilist: Sorry, I've been rather busy lately and missed your earlier post. To which post of mine were you referring to? I went back over the last 4 pages of discussion and can't find anything similar to what you are describing.

[Netopalis]

I have to say that I'm leaning in that direction as well. Because Malpa is 24 hours away from another prod and thus replacement, I'm going to go ahead and move my vote back to Gyro as well. If Malpa posts again, though, and it's not good, this vote could switch back in a heartbeat.

Unvote, Vote: Gyro

Really, I think that either one would be a productive lynch today. One thing that I particularly don't like, though, is Gyro's resignedness. In my experience, that's an attempt on the part of the mafia to create sympathy and move the wagon elsewhere.

[Netopalis]

Well, you see....The problem is that the people who are scummy and the people who are easy votes are sets which largely intersect.

Further, I am not up for just lynching *anyone*. I have placed votes today on you, Malpa and Foilistic. I think that I have justified each of those. If you feel that one of my moves is unjustified, please let me know and I will restate my case against that party.

As for putting pressure on someone else....I don't really feel that anyone else merits serious scrutiny at this point. Crypto has been a solid pro-town player today and I now think with a fair amount of assurance that he is town. Xvart...I personally don't see a great case against him. I find him to be a bit of a null read. Same with Walrus. I could probably be convinced about any of these parties' guilt, but I have no independent case by which to accuse them, and thus, will not try to fabricate a case on flimsy grounds just to appear to be more independent or driven.

[Netopalis]

Will respond to 506 in one moment, but why are you voting him if you feel that it will lead to a mislynch?

[Netopalis]

In 506, I say that if Malpa is scum, we would have a hard time proving it. I fail to see how this says that all inactive players are scum or that all active players are not scum. It is true, I tend to go after inactive players because they are impossible to read, have an equal chance of being scum and because I feel that it is best for the site if lurkers are lynched. However, this does not exonerate or excuse anyone else.

[Netopalis]

Oh, I'd also like to point out....the above two posts make a strong case for a Gyro and Foilist scumgroup. It seems as if Foilist is getting angry at Gyro's play as ruining his own attempts to appear not-scum.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, I'm the 1-shot vig. So..there you go.

Incredibly convenient choice of claim....

[Netopalis]

Still, though...I guess we could always direct him to kill Malpa and see what happens. It might turn out to be useful....

[Netopalis]

Not really. It's been done in a variety of other games.

[Netopalis]

Wow. Yeah, good points, Raskol.

Gyro: You'd best come through with your ability tonight.

Everyone else: Directed or undirected vig from Gyro? I'd prefer the directed because, frankly, I don't trust his judgment all that well.

Unvote, vote: Foilistc

[Netopalis]

Agreed with Raskol.

Gyro, I don't trust your judgment because in the past you've been proven to not really know what's going on. You are always piggybacking your suspicions on those of another. I therefore think that it is in the town's best interest if we at least give you some guidelines so that you don't do something ridiculous.

[Netopalis]

I still like Foilist. His post at the top of the page screams scum getting annoyed with newbie partner. That being said, yeah, I'm hesitant to believe Gyro's claim. Raskol...For some reason, I get a strong pro-town read on him. Nothing really to back it up, but I definitely feel confident that he's pretty safe.


Also, Kikuchiyo, maybe I'm just an idiot, but I'm not entirely sure that I see a huge connection between Foilist and Malpa. Would you mind fleshing it out a bit more and being more specific?

[Netopalis]

Xvart: Did I imply that you were an idiot? If so, I apologize - I actually respect you greatly as a player, since you're one of the more even players here...although I can tend to be critical of specific plays rather harshly.

[Netopalis]

I think that, for all practical purposes, an SK can be ruled out. The game only has 12 players and there was no kill N1, meaning that the only reasonable guess for a SK would be Malpa..but I think that even he would have killed N1.

[Netopalis]

EBWOP: No second kill. Although I guess a doc protect is possible....

[Netopalis]

Uh....what?

[Netopalis]

At this point, even if he's not scum, the only way to proceed in this game is by lynching him. Lynching Foilist will give us reads on all players alive with the exception of Malpa, and it will give us a read by association there.

Well, all that and the fact that I'm almost positive that he is indeed scum. You just don't make the kind of posts that he has and end up as town.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and Crypto - what's your opinion on directing Gyro's kill?

[Netopalis]

Ok, I just ran the numbers. I created situations for a double night kill or a single night kill, with either 1 or 0 scum being hit by either the NK or the Lynch.

7 3 - Double night kill w/1 scum hit in lynch or NK
5 2
3 2 - LYLO
2 1 - LYLO

7 3 - Alternative version of above
5 2
4 1
2 1 - LYLO


7 3 - Double Night Kill w/0 scum hit in lynch or NK
4 3 - LYLO
3 2 - LYLO
2 1 - LYLO

7 3 - Single Night Kill w/0 scum hit in lynch or NK
5 3 - LYLO
4 2 - LYLO
3 1 - LYLO

7 3 - Single Night Kill w/1 scum hit in lynch or NK
6 2
4 2 - LYLO
3 1 - LYLO

Basically, it's like this. If we double kill tonight and are wrong, we are in LYLO. If we lynch wrong, we are in LYLO. Since the numbers are equally as bad either way, our best bet is to double kill tonight as 2 of the 3 situations are better than or as good as any situation with a single NK.

[Netopalis]

Oh, incidentally, these numbers indicate a worst-case scenario - no lynches of scum except in the tested lynch/night phase or in LYLO.

[Netopalis]

But if we kill Gyro, he's town and no scum is hit or there's a single night kill, then we're faced with choosing between Malpa and Foilist....Either of which would come out of this looking pretty bad. I think that we're honestly kinda screwed either way.

[Netopalis]

Note: I guess it IS possible in my above scenario that all 3 are scum, but I'm assuming that this game won't be that easy.

[Netopalis]

Aaaah! The voices in my head, they don't stop! You're all scum! YOU'RE ALL SCUM!!!!


*ahem*


Reread of the last 3 pages to follow tomorrow when I'm thinking a bit more clearly. Initial reaction: Go after Foilistic.

[Netopalis]

Mod: I'm reasonably sure that Foilist isn't self-voting.

Kikuchiyo: Do you feel that Foilist is town as well? Raskol? To me, both seem incredibly scummy, but it also seems as if Gyro's claim does have at least a shot of confirmability....An unlikely one, I'm sure, as if there is a Mafia RB in this game he will certainly be RB'd, and I understand that Mafia RBs are almost assumed to be in every game on this site. At least, there's been one in every game that I've finished on here....

[Netopalis]

Mod: Just checked, the vote on Foilist should be attributed to Crypto.

[Netopalis]

Raskol: I think that part of the problem is that, unlike JereIC, Foilist or Malpa, Gyro has really just agreed with everybody above him.

[Netopalis]

It shows that he's not willing to be a bit adventurous and risk death due to a conviction about someone's role. Scum rarely post extremely strong cases because they know the actual alignment of the player that they are attacking.

[Netopalis]

Just to correct two things earlier about game mechanics...(Huzzah for reading the wiki and knowing arcane Magic: The Gathering rules!)

1) Even if the Mafia kills Gyro tonight, his kill still goes through. Kills are resolved simultaneously, as it would be unfair to allow any one faction to have priority unless that were part of a special ability.
As I understand it, they generally resolve something like this:

Roleblocks
Protection
Kills
Information roles

with all actions in a given category resolving simultaneously.


2) Gyro or the Mafia's target could also be doc-protected, either by a mafia doc or by a town doc.

3) Xvart, rather than trying to guess who Gyro is going to kill, I'm guessing the mafia would just no-kill.

[Netopalis]

Not really. With 10 alive and 2 town kills, the next day looks like this:
5 3 (LYLO)

With 10 alive and 3 town kills, the next day looks like this:
4 3 (LYLO)

In fact, the 2 town kills situation is actually more beneficial to the mafia, now that I think about it, because Gyro WOULD have to pretty much be the next lynch if there was only one kill tonight.

Unvote, vote: Gyro

[Netopalis]

(Note: The above is worst case scenario, if Gyro actually is a one-shot vig and Foilist is actually town)

[Netopalis]

I guess my point is that Gyro's continued existence gives a great number of options to scum that they don't have with him here.

[Netopalis]

I think the case was pretty strong on him before. It's kinda why he was forced to claim.

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I'm having a great deal of trouble deciding between the two wagons right now. I'm going to

Unvote

and wait to hear from Crypto and Rhinox before making a decision. Today is a very important choice, and I don't want to rush into it.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, mod, while I'm thinking of it, it's Netopalis. Not Netapolis. Net

o

palis.

Still want to hear back from Crypto or Rhinox, but I'm probably coming down on the Foilist side. I will withhold my vote for now because I don't want someone else hopping in with a hammer.

[Netopalis]

Top 3 suspects? Foilist, Gyro and Malpa. I thought it was pretty obvious.

[Netopalis]

Kikuchiyo - I wouldn't rule it out...I think it's entirely possible, as it seems that Foilist started panicking after it seemed that we had made a connection between the two and has since tried to distance himself by any means possible.

[Netopalis]

Crypto: Odd comment. Care to explain?


Also, I've seen enough.

Unvote, vote: Foilist13

I feel pretty confident about that this time.

[Netopalis]

Rhinox: any updates? I thought you said you were going to get something up quick?

[Netopalis]

Yeah, I'm convinced. Let's do this....Although I'd still like to hear from Rhinox.

[Netopalis]

I still want to hear from Rhinox first....

[Netopalis]

He already claimed vanilla.

[Netopalis]

Ugh. Couldn't we have waited a few more posts to hear from Rhinox? Would it have really hurt that much?

[Netopalis]

Oh, right. For some reason, I was thinking we were at 9. My bad.

[Netopalis]

I posted it too early. Insert this here:

Ugh. Couldn't we have waited a few more posts to hear from Rhinox? Would it have really hurt that much?

[Netopalis]

Sophist? That's a bit extreme, isn't it?

[Netopalis]

Yeah, the avatar justifies flapper. And buttface, come to think of it. But claiming that he is willing to argue for any point just for the sake of argument and believes in a decentralized notion of truth which expresses the idea that nothing can actually ever be proven, only thought to be proven is a bit extreme, no?

[Netopalis]

Fair enough. I was joking anyway.

[Netopalis]

Ugh...I don't like any of this. I agree with Raskol that No-lynch is the best option, but beyond that, I'm starting to like Kikuchiyo as the mafia, mainly due to her lack of support for the no-lynch option, her policy of secrecy and her hammer on Foilist yesterday before Rhinox got to weigh in. It seems that she has a policy of trying to keep as little information circulating as possible, and killing Rhinox fits that pattern to a T. Not only does she prevent our hearing much of substance from Rhinox, it also prevents the town from gaining extra information from a nightkill...at least until someone pieces together the evidence.

[Netopalis]

WIFOM? Only slightly. I'm implying a general strategy which I think would be an extremely good one if you were mafia. WIFOM only applies when given two equal choices in a way that leads to circular reasoning; it does not apply to every question of motive and hidden agenda.

Also, really don't like Gyro's gunning for Crypto. Really don't like it. That being said, his recent posts are pushing him more town for me than not town.

[Netopalis]

Crypto: Because they fit with what someone of his profile would do in this situation - end up rather defeated and frustrated when the predicted results of the night happen. Perhaps I'm projecting a bit...but I could definitely see myself reacting the same way if I were a one-shot vig in his position, especially as a newish player on the site.

Also, if you're not sure of WH, why are you voting him?

[Netopalis]

Crypto: I said *DON'T* like. It seems like a poor play vs. trying to kill off WH or Kikuchiyo.

[Netopalis]

Raskol, you mentioned Kikuchiyo in your post as well. Would you mind giving us some insight into your current read on her as well?

[Netopalis]

Ugh. Just realized that I misread Crypto's question earlier in my post in which I accused him of misreading. I was going to say that I don't like the move because I think that there's a very strong town-read on Crypto in my opinion - certainly much stronger than that of other players.

[Netopalis]

Why the asterisks?

[Netopalis]

Also: Xvart, I noticed that you're online right now. What's your position on all of this?

[Netopalis]

More blocking of information. And I just posted a case - the connection between your hammer and the Rhinox kill. It all adds up with your play in this game, really - I'm growing more and more convinced. Your play on D1 is consistent with that theory as well - you only made 16 posts, of which 4 provide substance. You also promise analysis later but never provide it. It seemed rather as if you were trying to build a hype wagon against me based on the interchange that I had with Crypto. Yet another attempt to give the town a second day with no real information save a bit of false information from a MD debate between myself and Crypto. You would have probably wanted to lynch me D1, then lynch Crypto D2 based on that, since it was said at the time that such a discussion couldn't happen "unless at least one of us were scum."

[Netopalis]

...or unless his partners were Havingfitz and Walrus Helmet, in which case he might have gotten no help tonight. But I'm leaning towards going after Kikuchiyo, as I think the case is much stronger....I want to hear from everybody, but as of right now, I'm convinced to the point that I would feel confident in making a vote.

[Netopalis]

Really? I disagree. I think that I've been on the cutting edge and have been a productive member of all wagons that I have been on. Yes, I've jumped around from suspicion to suspicion a fair bit, but that's my nature. I commonly consider arguments from all viewpoints and paint them in their best light, then in their worst light to see if they hold up. The case against Gyro is a fairly weak one, but the case against Kikuchiyo is fairly strong.

[Netopalis]

Crypto, since you don't seem to like my earlier justification of my votes, here's a listing of my serious votes against players and the first times that I suspected them:

My serious votes:
Crypto (Oct 29) - At time, no votes. Justifications explained later in thread and independent of other suspicions.
Gyro (Nov. 3) - At time, no votes. Justifications explained in 3 posts which he gave meh responses to.
Malpa (Nov. 7) - At time, 2 votes. However, I had expressed sentiments againts him multiple times throughout the day and gave independent reasons for my vote.
Jester (Nov. 8) - Admittedly 4th vote. Yes, my decision was based on the arguments made by other people, but I was also strongly concerned about a deadline due to the lack of activity on day 1.
Foilist (Nov. 12) - At time of vote and first case posted, there was one vote or suspicious post against Foilist. That was largely due to a questionable post that he had made and was not accompanied by a strong case. Therefore, my case was independent of Raskol's lone vote.

[Netopalis]

Kikuchiyo: While I appreciate your positive comments, we both know that I played terribly on D1 of that game. I find meta reads to be largely useless in these games because I know that experienced players will be cautious about changing their play too much between games...Personally, I find little difference in the way that you played there and the way that you play in this game. That doesn't mean anything in my book.

I should also probably make a note about my thread about lurkerism in MD. That thread was NOT posted in response to THIS game. It was about Hellsing Mafia and 2 other games that I was in at the time (ongoing), in which players refused to lynch lurkers because they felt that they "might be town". Rather frustrating really.

[Netopalis]

I wish I had a croissant right now, since I'm getting buttered up so much.....You're convincing me more and more of your scumminess. I'm torn, really - do we want to no lynch or no? I could definitely see a mafia plan for a no lynch....perhaps you're a godfather and are expecting a potential cop to investigate you, then stop the lynch tomorrow....

[Netopalis]

I want to hear from some others on recent developments, but as of right now consider me committed to a Kikuchiyo vote - I'm not voting so as to prevent a quick hammer.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* Walrus is a scummy player, but his scummishness reminds me more of a newbie than as a mafia-aligned player. Of course, he could just be newb-scum. I would be OK with the lynch, I guess...but I really feel much more strongly about Kikuchiyo. I think that there's a much stronger case there.

[Netopalis]

Meh, I'd be OK with the lynch of Kikuchiyo, Gyro, Walrus Helmet or Havingfitz. I would not be OK with the lynch of Xvart, Raskol or Crypto. There's a significant difference. There are good reasons for lynching the first four, there are not good reasons for lynching the last 3. Unfortunately, this seems to be a game in which everybody's scummy.

[Netopalis]

...I'm inexperienced.

I'm also leaving tomorrow...so V/LA for 24 hours-ish.

[Netopalis]

That was supposed to be a : P not a : D

[Netopalis]

You know what....Screw it.

Vote: No Lynch

There's absolutely no way that a no lynch can hurt us. It is possible, though, for a Kikuchiyo mislynch to do so.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* You suspect everyone but yourself and Xvart. No real surpirse there. The fact of the matter is, there is rougly a 90% chance that we are in MYLO. There are only a few realistic situations in which we are not:
2 mafia total, no other anti-town roles: Highly unbalanced, in general.
2 mafia total, 1 serial killer: Highly unlikely given the single kill both nights.
2 scumgroups of 2 mafia each : Highly unlikely given the single kill both nights.


Realistically, we have 3 mafia amongst us. I'm not really sure what the detriment is to no-lynching here, Crypto.

[Netopalis]

Agreed. Your results, Xvart?

[Netopalis]

Unvote.

My vote put us at NL-1, and I don't want someone non-hammering before we discuss what Xvart has to say.

[Netopalis]

Share innocent results too. You may not be around tomorrow to give them.

[Netopalis]

You're the obvious kill tonight anyway, after that little exchange. You were probably the obvious kill anyway, given that nobody suspected you.

[Netopalis]

Hypo results: (Even though I'm not sure what it will accomplish)

N1 - Innocent, Crypto
N2 - Innocent, Gyro

[Netopalis]

Hey, I gave believable results. I question the usefulness of hypo-cop, but I gave believable results. I think that there is a significant difference between questioning the theory surrounding a questionable game play vs. being obstructive to the town. The fact of the matter is that if Xvart wasn't the cop, he wouldn't have embarked on that little Q and A with me and Crypto - he would have just said that he didn't mean to imply that he WAS the cop and would have moved on. Unless he is protected tonight, he will die - I am sure of this fact. The only way to get any useful information from his role is for him to go ahead and claim and give results, otherwise that information will be lost and will be completely irrecoverable in exchange for the one-in-a-million shot that everyone on the scumteam is a bloody idiot (I hate banking on the stupidity of the scumteam, in general) or else that there is a second protection role in a game of 12 people.

[Netopalis]

Ok, I'm going to make a confession real quick.

I absolutely, positively hate the paranoia that this site has towards "giving the scum information." The whole concept has probably been the downfall of countless towns that were so scared of putting information out in the open that the most important points were lost as the players were picked off. We can't give out innocent results, we can't encourage people who have all but claimed to go ahead and do it, we can't talk about who we think is being pro-town. The scum should have known from the start of this discussion that Xvart was probably the cop. Even if Xvart isn't the cop, he STILL would have been an excellent kill. I'm still failing to see what the value of Xvart holding back his copness is - I doubt seriously that role is the main thing that the mafia is looking at now, given the fact that there are so few players that are realistically innocent.

Honestly. We're in MYLO. I'm strongly considering urging a massclaim. The more information that we have out, the better. Please, Xvart, claim. If you didn't want to claim today, you shouldn't have thrown a giant loaf of bread down where others would only drop a few crumbs.

[Netopalis]

Well, there's one way to end this whole debacle. Treat Xvart's hypo-cop as an actual cop claim with actual results. Votes off Raskol, please, and no further discussion on a Gyro lynch.

Given this, I feel sure that we need to either go after Kikuchiyo or else go after a no-lynch. I'm torn, honestly..there's a lot of value to either decision.

[Netopalis]

Crypto: Let me try to put what Raskol is saying in a bit more definite terms...


No lynch, always hitting scum
5 3 - MYLO
4 3 - MYLO
3 2 - MYLO
2 1 - MYLO

Lynch, always hitting scum
5 3 - MYLO
4 2 - MYLO
3 1 - MYLO

Basically, the town has no mislynches left available. The town DOES have a no lynch available. There's only one day during which a no lynch is a decent idea. Therefore, it makes more sense to use this resource than to not use it.

[Netopalis]

Forgot that having Walrus as town means Neto must be scum. That's a tough choice.

How does this follow? I'm not sure I understand the reasoning here.


Obviously, I still support the no lynch. However, I would really like to hear from Gyro before we go into night...he's not posted in a while, and I'd like to hear who he suspects the most and why.

[Netopalis]

No time to put together anything substantive, I'm afraid - I'll try to post something either tonight or tomorrow. Suffice it to say that my trip took a bit longer than expected.

[Netopalis]

Alright....Firstly, let's make it clear that Xvart and Gyro are practically cleared.

While I don't normally like the logic that Raskol uses in his case against a Kikuchiyo lynch, it may work here. I would be willing to withhold a lynch against her in favor of someone else due to the high chances of finding scum.

As I said earlier, I would be perfectly happy with a Walrus Helmet or Havingfitz lynch. I don't particularly like our other two options, Raskol or Crypto. I could see a situation in which WH and Havingfitz were Kikuchiyo's partners and they bussed after everyone else had built a fairly strong case, since they knew that their standing meant that they would not be that persuasive in trying to move a case.

However, I still maintain that no lynch is the best option today. We will gain extra information from a no lynch and there is absolutely no way in which a no lynch will hurt us.

[Netopalis]

Interesting point that I hadn't considered, Kikuchiyo, although I still could see going after Malpa based on the fact that he would probably be lynched...He was looking like an excellent candidate.

As for your organizing the lynch...Meh. Scum could just as easily put something together like that in an attempt to gain town points.

Finally, it doesn't matter if Fitz or Walrus just hopped on or not - scum often present very convincing cases for their bussing targets.

Still, my position remains largely unchanged from my last post.

[Netopalis]

Well, let's look at some options:

Any player's death reveals to us alignment and earlier attitudes towards that player to build connections on.
The death of the following presents us alignment about a player whose alignment was seriously questioned by at least 2 players:
Havingfitz
Raskol
Walrus Helmet
Kikuchiyo
Gyro

The death of Xvart will reveal whether or not he was the cop and whether or not his results were accurate.
The death of myself or Crypto will reveal whether or not his arguments have been scum-driven and thus whether or not he is trying to frame someone.
The death of Gryo would reveal a great deal of information regarding how his claim and subsequent discussion was handled.

[Netopalis]

Also, note: 2 days from deadline. We need to decide whether we're no-lynching or not today.

That was a typo See latest vote-count for deadline

.

[Netopalis]

...and Havingfitz comes in with ample reason to go for a lynch today with that post. He basically admitted to not having read the game up to his signing in, going with the crowd and fails to understand the distinction between an earlier no-lynch vs. one today.

[Netopalis]

If Xvart is killed, it ends this whole debate over whether Raskol and Gyro are town or not based on his half-claim.

If one of the other players you mention is killed, we presumably get a second investigation - preferably against a scummier player. And what you say is generally true about lynches, but not about no-lynches, since the only reason to go for no-lynch is based on the night actions.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough. This is a good explanation of why we shouldn't no lynch today...

Unvote, vote: Havingfitz