Die, scum from my other game! Die!
Mini 872: Mafia in Belgrove - That's All Folks
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I've never been a fan of RVS, but I'm also not a fan of theory questions either, since I think both ahve the same vulnerability - they're all null tells.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Just a side note, as it's a personal pet peeve of mine...Kikuchyo didn't choose tolynchguy0, he chose tovote forguy0.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Well, to explain Owen's post, there's a character in the Agatha Christie novel named U.N. Owen who talks much like he does....My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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1. How many games of mafia have you played? - On this site, 4. I've played a lot of games on other sites, but I don't have an exact number.
2. Do you prefer Mafia or Town roles? It really depends on the game, honestly. In some games, I really enjoy the investigative process of trying to ferret out the scum....and in other games, I really enjoy playing against the odds. It largely depends on who else is on my team, be it town or scum.
3. What is your favourite power role to have? Cop. Vigilante is prone to hurting the town more than it helps, a doctor's usefulness is spotty at best and most other roles are so rare to have that it really doesn't merit a discussion.
4. What is your opinion on crypto’s call for a wagon this early in the game?
I think he was probably joking, and I'm lax to seriously attack someone over a joke.-
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For the record, I think it's a really bad idea to lynch U N Owen just because he talks funny. That may just be the worst reason for a lynch I've heard.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Ahem? "Blindingly suspicious" to not want to lynch somebody because they sound pompous or their writing style is a bit weird? I think that's a bit overstating your case, Ectomancer. If U N Owen gives us more to work with to claim he is scum, I'll be right there with you voting for him - I just think that this is an incredibly weak case that I would feel ashamed to support.
That being said, I should probably note that I'm a law student. I tend not to accuse someone of being scummy unless I have a pretty good reason for it. Gut and posting style don't do that for me - failures of logic, bad arguments and distracting comments do.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Ecto, you're right, I apologize - I meant to say Crypto. I also agree that if Owen doesn't post content he should be lynched - the usual tells still apply.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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You are all very silly people.
Jester: I understand what you're saying, but I feel that he's playing a character...thus being a null tell. We could get into a WIFOM argument over whether scum would be so blatant or not, but I think we need to reserve our opinions until we hear more from him.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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You don't have to justify a vote during the RVSunless you imply that there is a serious reason for your vote.Or if you're just hopping on a bandwagon. Which you are doing.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Crypto,
If you want a reaction, generally you want someone to post why they're innocent. Nobody accused Malpa of anything specific - therefore, how can he post a coherent case as to why he's not guilty of that? Your playstyle reminds me a lot of Franz Kafka's "The Trial" - people are expected to justify themselves against claims that they don't really understand or know about. If Malpa posts content andthenhe looks scummy, then sure, attack him for it and look for a reaction. However, he has not posted anything warranting your reaction. In fact, to me, it looks like you're trying to attack anyone who does anything that might possibly start a wagon in an attempt to just stay alive and end the day early. To me, that's rather scummy.
My vote stands on Crypto.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Oh, and also, Ecto - my earlier post in response to AFC should in no way be considered a defense of Crypto. Rather, it was an implied attack - he should have to justify it because he implied he had a reason. Likewise, AFC should have to justify it because he's hopping on a bandwagon.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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And the result should always, theoretically, be the same - "Why are you voting me! Give some explanation!"
Voting without a reason is a worthless play and should be discouraged.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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AFC: Honestly, I haven't found that scum attempt OMGUS that much - it's usually weak town. That being said, if you had said you were voting him because he OMGUS'd, I wouldn't have attacked you.
In re: Crypto, I still maintain that it's bad play, but I do appreciate the analysis of his play and understand what he was attempting to do.Unvote: Crypto
Jere: I apologize, I didn't mean to misrepresent the Owen wagon, but I would ask that you see it from my perspective...Here we have a player with 4 posts who names himself after a serial killer from a famous murder novel. All of his posts talk like that character - his statement at the start about wanting to kill us all is just in line with his character's behavior as well, so I don't think it should be considered a scumtell. I have to ask - as scum, what would he achieve by doing this?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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EBWOP: Ugh. In my last post, I meant to aim the 3rd paragraph to Jester not Jere. Sorry, I've been off my game as of late.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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AFC - Yes, but if you're going to call something scummy, you're implying that it either is a freudian slip or that it is something that would advance the scum's game. Therefore, attacking something as scummy then refusing to explain why it advances the scum's game by calling it WIFOM is rather silly, IMHO.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Ecto: To who was your post directed?
Crypto: For the love of all that is good and holy, give me some analysis to work with! "This is a stupid argument" is not analysis. It is a statement. Deconstruct it, tell me why it is bad, do SOMETHING. I can't respond to simple assertions such as "X is scum", "Y argument is bad" or "Z is helpful to town."
And as for the accusation that I have went with the flow, I feel rather the opposite - I've went against the flow of public opinion for most of the time - against Owen's lynch, criticizing your play and criticizing AFC.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Fair enough, although I think that what Crypto's post actually accomplished is better than what it intended to accomplish: He intended to get reactions from one player, but we've started getting reactions from a variety of them.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Crypto: First of all, "erratic" is not a vague term. It has a very specific meaning. According to Webster's, it is "Having no fixed course" or "characterized by a lack of consistency." In other words, I felt that your play was lacking in any reason at the time, because I didn't understand what you were doing. Now that you've explained it, I understand it but do not agree with it. My later post did not say that fishing for reactions was good, but that the results of your actions accomplished it better than what you originally intended, contrary to what Ecto was saying. Further, I think that his "acceptance" of Kikychio's argument for RVS was not really saying that he subscribed to that philosophy, just an acknowledgment of it being the best argument for the opposing position that he has read as of yet. Finally, my backing out was not in response to Jester's backing out, it was because I begrudgingly understood what you were doing. Had I been online before Jester, I would have posted the same thing and you would be attacking him for "going with the flow". Finally, the fact that I understand what you are doing does not clear you of being scum, it merely means that there was at least something resembling logic behind your play, which was the problem that I originally had with you - your actions made no sense because I did not know what your hidden motivation was.
Ecto: To explain a bit, I unvoted Kikuchyo because it was a random vote. I voted for Crypto because I felt that his play was erratic and illogical. I unvoted him once he explained himself. I apologize if this wasn't exactly stated in each of my posts, I'll try to be a bit more explicitly specific with each of them in the future.-
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Ah, I see. Yeah, I'm still extremely tempted to vote Crypto, as I find his play very scummy, but I wanted to reward behavior which explains actions by unvoting to encourage others to explain their play as well. I try to play the game in an orderly and organized fashion, and I find players who don't explain themselves to be extremely hard to read. They also usually tend to be scum. Like I said, though...Crypto is still high on my list.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Jester's post is...odd, but not what I'd call scummy, just because I've done similar things. There's one player in particular that is absolutely terrible at the game, but who I always try to help out by explaining why he's wrong....I still do vote for him eventually, but I like to give a warning to newer players. Although, with Owen's statement that he's played 5-6 games on here, I don't know whether we should consider him new or not.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Crypto: As for your erratic play, I guess I should have explained it a bit better. The following post numbers refer to posts read in isolation: 3,4, 7 and 8. - After your 8th post, I post the erratic comment. These posts represent drastic changes in opinion for no real stated reason. To me, at the time, it looked as if your play was lacking in any general direction and that you were just eager to lynch somebody. To me, that reeks of scum. The last two points about Owen and fishing are really differences in style - my style directly opposes them, but I do understand the theory behind them - I'll just agree to disagree on those points for now, since an argument over them would take several pages and would really go nowhere.
Ecto: I understand what a scummy statement is, but I feel that it's more important to tell the truth than to lie in an attempt to look "more town". Also, if you'll notice, Crypto is giving us more than enough to work with now - he's explaining his posts and reasoning, making logical criticisms of other players and is generally improving. Therefore, I consider my unvote to have achieved the desired effect - he has changed his actions in a way that is beneficial to the town. Honestly, the more I hear from him now, the less I'm suspecting him, since it seems that he actually does have a plan.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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I am not an alt, I previously played on a site called Acumencia which sadly closed down...it was a site for forum games like Mafia and other puzzles, but sadly it never really got to be that big. I also meant that there was a drastic change between post combo 3 and 4 and between post combo 7 and 8. Your first serious post didn't give a lot of meaning behind it, nor did your subsequent switch. To me, the two actions seemed to imply something that would be a general theme of your play. I'm pleasantly surprised to see that it's not.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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I didn't say that I don't suspect him now, just that his posts are moving me in the opposite direction because now he's posting stuff that makes sense. And no, but now that you mention it, he hasn't posted in a while...My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Oh, and Crypto...It's a tough question. Like I said, it's really not my style, but I have seen other players doing it, so I'm not sure. I think that posting votes without reasoning is anti-town, but I don't think reaction fishing is...One can be done without the other.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Not if done without posting unexplained votes. Yes, posting unexplained votes is scummy. I believe that I said that above.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Might as well send one to Walrus Helmet too, Mod.
IncidentallyFOS: Malpafor his lack of posting anything of substance. Note that this is completely unrelated to the prior wagon on Malpa.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Mainly, yes, that scum do it more than townies. I've been in a few games where scum do that, are challenged and then point to the reaction as a reason to vote. When that person gets lynched, they blame it on being the first day and come out smelling like roses.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I said it above - in the post immediately prior to yours, actually. I find that scum do it more often than townies do. Scum can use it as a tool to attack a pro-town player without any real justification - they vote them, watch for a reaction and then use either the concern or lack thereof to build a case.
A better way to reaction-fish would probably be to ask questions or wait for someone else to slip up before attacking.
In either event, though, I don't feel that reaction-fishing does that much as most players who have an idea of what they're doing will simply ignore any unsubstantiated claims and move on.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Additionally, do you mind if I ask why you're wasting my time asking me to repeat myself? You've done it twice now.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Ok, Crypto, I've said this three times now. Don't ask me to repeat myself again, because I'm not going to. It allows scum to make easy cases which lead to mislynches. Let me say it slower:
It
allows
scum
to
make
easy
cases
which
lead
to
mislynches.
And now in Russian...
Оно позволяет мафии сделать легкие случаи для того чтобы mislynch.
And, finally, in pig latin:
Itay alloways afiamay otay akemay easyay asescay whichay eadlay otay islynchesmay.
Can I possibly make myself any clearer, Crypto? Should I perhaps try looking to dead languages to make my points? Should I perhaps engrave my statements in gold, dip them in guacamole and deliver them to your doorstep with a plate of caviar and a pile of red snappers while dressed in a clown suit and singing the theme song from "The Facts of Life?" Would that make things easier to understand, Crypto?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Due to the fact that I only recently joined the site, I only have 2 completed games, and neither of these are a good indicator. Due to the current game rule, I can't link you to games in progress. Finally, I'm not going to spend hours poring over the newbie queue just to prove a point.
How does voting without a reason make the mafia's job easier? I should think it was pretty obvious. Was it found in this quote?
Or was it in this one?Mainly, yes, that scum do it more than townies. I've been in a few games where scum do that, are challenged and then point to the reaction as a reason to vote. When that person gets lynched, they blame it on being the first day and come out smelling like roses.
I said it above - in the post immediately prior to yours, actually. I find that scum do it more often than townies do. Scum can use it as a tool to attack a pro-town player without any real justification - they vote them, watch for a reaction and then use either the concern or lack thereof to build a case
Or maybe it should be found here?
It allows scum to make easy cases which lead to mislynches.
If you listen to Crypto, he'd have you believe that I'm ignoring the opportunity to clarify myself to the town. Really, though, that's not what he's doing. Essentially, he knows that if he asks me the same question over and over again, I'll object to it and that he could construe me to be seen as unhelpful.
Unvote, vote: Crypto
Allow me to turn the tables, Crypto. Why do you feel the need to make me repeat myself 4 times? I say 4 because I do explain this somewhat more obliquely earlier. I asked you this earlier, by the way, and you didn't really respond. Can you clarify this a bit for us? Can you make yourself any clearer? I'd really like to know. You see, I have this strange, incredibly odd fascination with requiringreasonsin order to act, and I like having them around. Humor me, would you? All I want to know is why you feel that asking me to repeat myself repeatedly and my subsequent getting a bit ticked over it is scummy. Just a little bit of information wouldn't hurt, you know?-
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Oh, and just in case I really wasn't explicit enough with the above three cases, it's because the following:
If we allow people to make attacks without reason, then we allow for unjustified attacks.
Any response to one of these votes can be construed as scummy - either action OR inaction.
Mafia know this and know that they can use it as a tool to get rid of a town player for free.
Ergo, it can be a tool of the Mafia.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Alright, fine. I'm sorry that I didn't justify my unvote well enough for you all, which is apparently a cardinal sin around here. I told you why I did it - you can agree with my motivations or not, but continuing to yell at me over it isn't going to magically make some other reason or justification appear out of thin air.
Right now, I do suspect Crypto again. I didn't for a little bit because he was starting to make sense, but now I think that he's continually nitpicking on minutae in order to get a lynch up and *not* because any of the stuff he talks about is actually scummy. I also feel that he's derailing the town.
Second pick: Gyro. Even though he hasn't posted much, both posts are basically attempts to provide discussion without actually saying anything. He essentially relates the state of the game with a small amount of commentary, never really going out on a limb to back up his opinions. He also seems to automatically go with whatever the current prevailing mood is.
Finally, maybe I am wrong about the reaction fishing thing. I am a fairly new player on this site, and the entire culture and method was much different where I played before. I still think that it's a bad play....and I think that, in general, bad play is scummy. That being said, since I've reiterated my reasons 6 times now, I'm not going to do so once again because, again, there will be no new reasons magically appearing out of thin air. It's not like I've been holding back any arguments.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Firstly, if you read the game that ABR and I were in together, you'll find that I was largely attacking him for votingwithout having read the thread, something which he openly admitted to on page two and never recanted. He intentionally played that game poorly. Perhaps I was colored somewhat by that game, but for me, it seems that logical play has always benefited the town.
In response to your list:
1) A vote switch alone is not an attack. What I am saying is that either reaction that the voted party gives will be construed as scummy and either jumped and lynched that day or used as justification for a later lynch, regardless of their alignment.
2) See above.
3) I'm not so much concerned about a quicklynch 4 pages in as I am coloring a townie as scum and slowly building a case over the course of the entire day.
4) See above
And I understand your point here, but I still maintain that, more often than not, lynches arising from random votes are mislynches which I suspect are at least partially orchestrated by the mafia.
Your argument breaks down here, though. You say that this is not scummy, but you also say that anything can be scummy.
Also, just because something is standard procedure for someone doesn't make it not scummy. Someone may just have a scummy playstyle, something which I feel that Albert illustrates in spades.
Finally, even if you disagree with my game theory, I fail to see how this disagreement = scummy.-
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I'm willing to drop it, since this is getting us nowhere. While I still think Crypto is scum, this entire discussion is wholly unproductive. Looking back, I do understand that perhaps my arguments weren't what they should have been. As I mentioned in an earlier post, what do you all think of Gyro? I think that a few of his posts are more than a bit suspicious....Specifically the way that he never actually says anything in the few posts that he does have.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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You know what, Crypto? Let's settle this like real men. With a chess game. Shall I start a thread in TWSOGMM?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Kikuchiyo: Continued discussion would be unproductive because we're derailing into theory discussions that won't really get us anywhere. The discussion was helpful up to the point where it turned into an argument about playstyle.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record....
You imply above that you want to FOS me. Why is that?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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A lot has happened between now and then, and I thought your reasoning may have changed. I'm not getting defensive and I'm not attacking you, I'm just asking you to explain yourself.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Ok, let me put it this way: If he FOSd me on page 6, there's no point on doing it again on page 8 unless something changed. I'm trying to get him to articulate his reasoning.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Gyro. Rather useless posts which sound mildly scummy means that even if it is a mislynch, it's not a terrible one.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Firstly, in defense of Crypto, I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the tendency of people on this site to vote for people or suspect them over jokes. I find it to be a null tell at best. Humor is not a scumtell.
I predictably do agree with a lot of other things by Xvart, though. I didn't want to bring it up myself, but it was pretty much as if Gyro said "I'd do this, but you'll flip out...", then I made a perfectly rational and calm question, which was followed by an accusation of flipping out. I'm curious as to what I could have done tonotflip out in his eyes there.
In re: Gyro: I only really got angry at one point during my discussion with Crypto - that is at the point where I had been asked to rehash the same point 4 times. I hardly think that it warrants a supposition that I would flip out at any instant to attack you. I also really dislike how you seem to be taking the backing up of a person's arguments to be scummy, regardless of whether that person's role is known or not.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis, you still think reaction-fishing like I did is anti-town?Is fishing for reactions scummy? Is posting unexplained votes scummy?What do you mean by "scummy"? That in your experience, scum do whatever action more than town? Or something else?...but why are unexplained votes anti-town/scummy? Also, what are the alternatives you would recommend for reaction fishing?Why/how does the function in and of itself negatively affect the town or positively affect the mafia?-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Crypto is being rather petty overall, I think....But we're not going to go down that road again. For now, I'm becoming increasingly convinced of Gyro's scumminess....Reasons stated in the last 3 posts I made in re: him.
Unvote, vote: GyroMy posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Why do you think he is scum?
Also: Crypto, no apology needed on language. I feel the exact same way.
Malpa: Post, die or be replaced. We want reasoning behind your suspicions, too.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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That's a bit hasty, don't you think? Not that I disagree - Malpa is an excellent play today, but shouldn't we hear what he has to say first, no matter how incomprehensible?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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In that case, fair enough...I can certainly understand voting and unvoting as a prod to do or not do a certain action.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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