Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[Furry]

*tackle hugglez*

Hey all

I read about half the game last night before I got too tired. Glad at least some of you are voting CA even though things likely have changed since then.

unvote

[Furry]

I'd love to dissect it and restate how you're wrong, but busted keyboard won't let me.

Something tells me if you find it hard to respond to a paragraph you are going to hate me in the next few days

*shrug*

ah well, I will get typing here soon anyways.

Also if someone can put up a reason why DJ is getting votes, and explain why DRK (who looks pretty town to me) is getting votes too, I would be much obliged.

[Furry]

Two things I should state now because of how much they annoyed me when I was reading this game, and proves that people need to learn a bit more about theory before they start trying to be cute.

1) Being "intentionally scummy"

There is never a good reason to be doing something like this. Period. When someone is acting scummy, any half decent scum will call them out of it. This includes self-voting, withholding information, intentionally lurking, anything like that. When you do these things with the intention of catching "over eager scum" or anything to that extent, you are just as likely, and actually more likely, to start going after town that is doing exactly what they are supposed to be.

I am always willing to lynch someone who is intentionally being anti-town for some perverse reason that they have come up with to justify it. The more you get on these people, the quicker they are to realize what they are doing is wrong.

2) Jesters!

There is no jester. There never was a jester. Any mod who puts a jester in a game, especially a normal game, should not be allowed to mod again. In the event a jester exists, you should lynch them, since they are essentially a scum role (They count as .75 goon iirc?). If you think someone is a jester, they are more likely scum. Kill them.

I will get onto why we should be killing off CA pretty soon here though. I would make a good bet that dead-CA means at least one of his buddies is on DRK-town wagon as well.

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their neighbor! Repeat! Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their neighbor!

The best way to do that is to switch these wagons around with some serious speed.

[Furry]

Vote ConfidAnon

Time for a magical multi part case

1) Refusal to take an early stance / ITS A TRAP

For the first five pages (and that is being remarkably generous by me) CA never did anything that remotely signified a stance on a player, as he skated the issue once, and backed down on what could of been a legitimate push. These occur in the following postitions

My DeathRowKitty vote was not fully serious. Right now we are still pretty much in the RVS.

"fully?" ok... what that means is it WAS in part serious. If anything is partially serious, you have seen a scumtell. If you have seen a scumtell, the RVS is over. Prolonging the RVS is a slight scumtell, since you are avoiding scumhunting when its readily available. But we have him abandoning a partially serious vote for another random vote later on.

Secondly we have

One thing holding me back: I've seen BigBear play as scum. He's competent, and voting No Lynch is horrible scum play.

This is just such a big fence sit its quite amazing. BB did something scummy, but he is a good player so its null, but its a scummy thing. What is this even? It just feels like calling someone scum and town at the same time, especially that last line.

Remember my stuff earlier about why people shouldnt act scummy? CA exploits this to perfection.

That possibility did occur to me, but I chose not to say anything because when a gambit like that is explained, then it becomes worthless.

@BigBear: Were these your intentions? WIFOM? Can you refute these allegations?

That will just lead to more WIFOM.

So he thinks its a gambit to get people to vote him for being scummy or something, which is why he never took a strong stance, he doesnt want to disturb the trap.

What does this trap accomplish though? Anyone can answer this but I want CA to specifically. If someone votes BB, why are they scum and not town? You vote scummy players as town. I would be busting this apart if I was around then, but instead we get people perpetuation what is a baseless 'gambit' or whatever you kids are calling it these days.

The second part shows that CA realizes its WIFOM though, yet seems to be playing along all the same. Some WIFOM can benifit the town, as it draws out scum more then town, or impacts scum more severly. This though is just going to be a death blow to the town. CA knows this, but wont let it go. In fact its all that he has contributed to the game.

~~~~Intermission #1~~~~

lets all go to the lobby..... lets all go to the lobby........

[Furry]

First thoughts on Furry: his quick vote for CA earns him some town points for me, but I'm getting some funky vibes right now. It almost looks like he's trying to buddy me a little right off the bat. Obviously, that's not necessarily a scum-tell, but it seems a bit fishy that (I think) he called CA out on a couple of things I've done too while potentially buddying.

If I think someone is town, im going to call them town. Sanjay is blindingly town, you are town, EC is probably town. Town reads are just as essential as scum reads are.

I am not going to respond in full to CA untill after I get the entire case on him up. However, I will ask him to respond to the last paragraph of my first case on him, which is a key point.

@looker - *nuzzles* thanks for avvy comment. Unfortunately I cant draw that well, but I have access to quite a few of them.

[Furry]

Bringing up a Jester = steering the town away from looking for scum, onto finding a hypothetical Jester that may not exist.
Bringing up a Jester = creating unnecessary speculation. This is the internet, we all mistrust each other enough as it is. Jester speculation begins all kinds of "should we really lynch him, he might WANT to be lynched" WIFOM.

Unless someone is refusing to lynch due to jester fears, the best course of action is to call them an idiot, point out that a jester is anti-town, and get the "jester" lynched. If I get a jester lynched, good. I did my part as town to kill off an anti-town player.

Remember, there is no such thing as jesters. Just overly scummy players.

[Furry]

Back from weekend festivities... the only one of the year where I can be me and get complemented by people. 51 weeks to go...

2) Push on EC

I don't know how he knows a godfather even exists. Honestly, half the posts in this thread aren't serious.

I don't like Far Cry's personal attacks, but I don't see anything scummy with him.

I'm just jumping on the Shrinehme bandwagon because I don't get good vibes from him.


Vote: Shrinehme

This vote does not seem protown at all. It practically screams bandwagon.

Unvote, Vote: EtherealCookie

First off... bandwagoning is one of the most pro-town things that can be done in the early stages of the game. On top of that there is no explaining for why there is any scumtell here, just that he is wagoning. Its a legitimate wagon, there is nothing bad about that.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not Jester. I'm just a guy who got swarmed with too much shit, said a few stupid things, and is in a deep pile of shit right now and is too busy to get out of it currently. Give me till the weekend, guys.

Appeal to emotion, js.

AtE is not scummy. Sorry. No one has ever explained why it is. I see CAs attempt, but it fails. Doubly to him using it as a conditional tell. The ignoring of BB putting him at a precieved L-2 getting not even a second thought is concerning as well.

[Furry]

AtE is not scummy. Sorry. No one has ever explained why it is. I see CAs attempt, but it fails. Doubly to him using it as a conditional tell. The ignoring of BB putting him at a precieved L-2 getting not even a second thought is concerning as well.

I would argue that when someone gets votes and uses AtE as part of their defense it is scummy, specifically when the AtE outweighs the argument.

Again, what is scummy here is poor/failure to defend oneself, not AtE.

[Furry]

Its still not AtE... thats almost as big of a crap tell as "overdefensive". I am much more willing to lynch players pushing those on a case then the pushed, they are that bad of tells.

[Furry]

Its still not AtE... thats almost as big of a crap tell as "overdefensive". I am much more willing to lynch players pushing those on a case then the pushed, they are that bad of tells.

I'm not understanding the point that this post is making. It's not AtE, I called it the wrong name, so I'm scummy? You worded it kind of funny, sorry for the confusion.

Ehhhh.... thats not what I think you think, or thought, or at very least acted on. Due to this...

I just simply missed your question.

I generally see Appeal To Emotion as a scumtell. It is a method used to avoid a lynch, and scum have the most motivation to avoid a lynch. It is true that townies do not want to be lynched either, but normally only newb townie's use appeal to emotion . . . and unless I am mistaken, EC is not a noob.

Which is you expanding on the "AtE" thing. There is no mention of 'avoiding defending onesself' or however I put it. This is an attempt to explain why AtE is scummy. And a conditional tell based on experience (something else I hate).

[Furry]

You said "poor/failure to defend oneself." Using AtE as a main part of your defense would definitely fall under that category.

AtE is a complete null tell. Not defending oneself, while at times appears as a by-product of AtE, is something completely different. Its besides the point though.

You use AtE as an early reason to vote, and then expand on it without mentioning failure to defend. That is completely different then what I have been talking about, and what you are trying to make it out as what you voted on.

[Furry]

All I need is your opinion, Furry, whether you believe this case to be realistic or not.

I still havent decided if I find this question insulting or not.

Yes I believe the case is realistic. With an expected two town, one scum wagon going on right now, and the votes spread as they are, I would put big big money on DRK being one of the town. With close votes, scum can easily control where wagons go, and they would have options to move off of DRK-scum.

It is much more likely that CA-scum or DJ-scum have all town on their wagon, and scum are trying to stop it from catching up to the top town wagon. This just looks like competition between town and scum wagons like I have seen in the past, and will likely see again. I would be willing to vote DJ over CA if it comes down to it, simply for the sake of making a point about defending a strong town read over a neutral read, but dont want to have to do that.

Regardless of my thoughts on the wagons though, yes my case is completely serious. If I was a day vig I likely would of fired coming into the thread. The early game from CA is bad, the vote on EC is bad, and other things that I have not got to yet.

@Others - Can anyone really mediate the whole AtE thing going on here? Its fallen into "im right", "no im right" at this point. I still dont see him considering AtE back when he used it what I previously described it as, but maybe im just being a little dense.

[Furry]

Furry

- Sorry if I missed it earlier, but did you ever explain your town read on DRK?

Formation of wagons is quite a big one. Most of the people I have had anti-town reads on are attacking DKR. DRK has been on wagons of people that I have anti-town reads on. I know thinking the same things are not completely indicative of alignment, but I trust my reads enough.

Also I think the jester thing is a really bad thing to make a wagon on. Jester speculation is stupid, not scummy. Trying to make it scummy and actually basing an entire case off anything jester related, is far more scummy.

So wagons + other reads + case on DRK = town to me, and I am willing to vote most anyone but DRK to stop that lynch

[Furry]

No not KoC... that wouldnt accomplish the goal too well. If you moved to CA, or we both moved to DJ that might work better. I guess it depends where the new replacements vote ends up.

[Furry]

No not KoC...

that wouldnt accomplish

the goal

too well

. If you moved to CA, or we both moved to DJ that might work better. I guess it depends where the new replacements vote ends up.

The purple part's funny to me in an off-beat kind of way.

Move to CA - I'm currently under the assumption that both CA and DRK are town.
Move to DJ - I don't know. DJ seems to be a great town target to me, because town are on his wagon already so you wouldn't look scummy if he flipped town. I think I'll stick with KoC.

Why funny? I always have my set of goal to accomplish, built around defending town reads and lynching scum reads. One of my goals is not to have a DRK lynch.

Best way to reach two goals is a CA lynch, but a non-town read lynch is better then a no lynch, or town read one. KoC vote detracts from both goal.

[Furry]

Already have done quite a bit of speaking on the CA wagon... but ok

I have covered his unwillingness to take a stance day one
his reaction over the "intentionally scummy" WIFOM
his really bad vote on EC
AtE stuff (someone else still needs to look at this)

all thats really left is the fact that he hasnt stopped talking about jesters for almost the rest of the game. Nearly every post he made since around the halfway point has been arguing over them, which really is not going to be productive at all, and should stop, yet never did. It took the place of scumhunting for him (the 'you talked about jesters, must be scum' doesnt qualify).

Like I said, more then willing to jump to a DJ wagon if it means not having a DRK lynch, but CA is the better lynch out of all three.

[Furry]

I dont think I stand any chance of swinging an 'other' lynch in five days. It also lowers CA and raises DKR lynch chances.

[Furry]

furry: why me over CA? i haven't exactly followed your train of thought, but i remember you questioning my wagon upon entry to the thread.

Its CA over you over DRK. If it came down to you or DRK, I would vote you without much thought. I would like a CA lynch much more, but there are other lynches (whoever replaced PB, shine) who also would be acceptable to me. The case on your predicessor isnt overpowering, which is what I was checking, but it is there.

We need to figure out the replacement/deadline deal soon though, so we know what needs to be done about wagons.

[Furry]

Deadline should be anywhere from 5 to 7 days from the time a replacement is found. Deadline should never be past 7 days from the original posted deadline. Rule two superceeds rule one. Thy be the laws of deadline.

[Furry]

Furry---not having time to push an alternate lynch is no reason not to make cases. If CA is truly your top suspect, then fine, but you shouldn't avoid pushing lynches just because you think you won't be supported. If you end up having to go with the majority to avoid a no lynch, fine, but do your best---sticking with easy bandwagons just because they're easy doesn't help the town, and makes people like me find you suspicious.

CA is my top pick. DJ is not my second pick, my second (and third) picks have no votes however. Im planning to stick on my top suspect, but with all likeyhood if shifts need to occur, it will be close to deadline and there will not be enough time to lay out a great case on a third party. If CA was not my top suspect I wouldnt of came into the game voting him. I am confident in my ability to shake things up when I have time to.

[Furry]

DRK should claim at this time tomorrow if we havent heard anything about the deadline. I still think he is town, but regardless of what role he is, late day moving will occur after a claim. I would rather us have time to at least analyze a bit before going to deadline.

[Furry]

DRK needs to claim soon. As of now we have just over 72 hours untill deadline, and there is a good chance I wont even be able to post the day of deadline so would like some extra time here.

I dont like a zazie wagon too much at this point. Zazie lurking is a town tell to me. Everytime ive seen him get lynched for it he was town.

We need to start orginizing a deadline lynch at this point. Yes I know how crude that sounds but its true.

[Furry]

@Furry
How many games have you played with Zazie?

Split personalities have played a few

I think he lurked out and got lynched in one of the invitationals though

[Furry]

DRK Claim.

Tomorrow I will do a evaluate my position in regards to possible lynches.

[Furry]

I think this is VC... this page needs one given vote movement as of late

don_johnson (2) - ZazieR Shrinehme
ConfidAnon (2) - DeathRowKitty Furry
DeathRowKitty (4) - ConfidAnon don_johnson BigBear Knight of Cydonia
Sanjay (1) - Looker
Zazie (2) - Raskol archaebob
KoC (1) - Sanjay

Deadline in little under 72 hours

[Furry]

Meta is normally something you supplement a read with, not base a read off of. Im going to do a skim of BB and BN/DJ to see where my vote gets moved too, but im thinking its going to be DJ at this point.

[Furry]

The fact that no one on the DRK wagon is making a strong push at this late stage of the game and instead is just letting it slide to the deadline lynch is really concerning me. All but ready to vote DJ at this point, just one thing I want to see happen first to reaffirm my thoughts about that lynch.

[Furry]

Im looking for one thing to happen before I move my vote. Im not going to say what it is so its avioded/intentionally done untill after it happens. At that point I will make my vote and explain what I was waiting for. If it doesnt happen by tomorrow night I will just vote anyways

[Furry]

One question (I'm SO self-centered): Does this happening have anything to do with...moi...? [Please say yes]

No... but if you want to imagine it does go ahead.

As far as I'm concerned CA is pretty much confirmed town.

Unless there's anybody who thinks that they can explain the motivation for a scum-CA to unvote like that two days before deadline, then I fully expect to see this wagon disappear.

Ehhh... maybe not confirmed town but I think it means that one of my reads are wrong. Once the vote moves somewhere there are more solid conclusions as to what it means. The DRK wagon is stalled and under attack though, given that DRK looks town, its going to look bad if he gets lynched for anyone on that wagon.

Once CA moves his vote I will have a better read on the whole scenario. Since it will be more obvious the entire goal of this move.

[Furry]

Going to read and post, some of us DO have a job you know. Also to breifly explain why a softclaim is bad

Name a role that does more of a merit to town as just "PR" then full claim *PGO*, well that one is supposed to be claimed post one but *Asetic* and that one really hardly exists and still might be a good early claim *Commuter* ok fine they exist but they are rare.

The reason its benificial for scum to claim just "PR" is they will not get countered. They do not have to worry about making up results. There is no way for them to trip on a claim if they never really made it. Scum will kill town power though, I doubt DJ saying "im a doc" or "im a PR" will give any different results for the night, but a doc claim is much more dangerous.

Enough theory, time to read

[Furry]

furry: waiting on your bullshit "i'm waiting to see one thing" bullshit. spew anytime.

Self-preservation against current reads. Between you and DRK, I wanted to see who was going to do what, and if staying alive or persuing a top pick ment more to you two. The current VC kind of kills a lot of what was happening, I fully expected to come back to a 4-4 with throwaway single votes, but its still worth noting.

Neither of you are moving your votes right now, which is a little disappointing as I hoped that someone would move to a small wagon and I could nail down a scum read. However I think the vote on you from DRK is far more legitimate, no one is pushing the DRK wagon, no one has for a while, I just think its there to coast to deadline.

Most of the rest of the discussion seems to be regarding a claim. Full claim is the right move, period.

Im still confused as hell right now over reads. If DRK and DJ are town, I think BB is scum. If DRK or DJ is scum, BB is likely town. This is from the constant "well if no one else..." mood of most players. Whatev's though, time to pull this game in a new-ish direction I think.

unvote
vote Raskol

Slap-dash case coming.

If DJ does not full claim in thier next post my vote is moving though.

Someone please bullet point a case on KoC for me, since im not seeing it.

[Furry]

Furry-Brand Qwick Case on Raskol

Stuff from PB

Unvote :
Vote: Sanjay

How do you know there are three scum?

I was thinking the same exact thing but I didn't want to bring it up, hoping maybe he'd slip again.

Continuing a null tell. 90% of minis have three scum, its not a slip in the least bit.

BigBear's self-vote bugs me.

Far_cry is making me nervous.

Far_Cry's play has been quite strange to me. During the RVS, I have been sitting back and just noting little behavior, and I didn't like things that I saw from Far_Cry thus far.

Far_Cry's post 59 and post 60 makes me a bit uneasy. I think it is a bit strange to failvote and then revote during the RVS. It's a vote that doesn't matter anyway..

Hollow suspicions. All he is coming up with for tells is "strange" and "feels wierd". Not what you try and push a case on.

PB completely drops FC for EC when he [FC] gets replaced (hard to really show this with a quote ok?)

So zazie comes in (for FC) and then PB decides to move to BN, following the player who he was convinced was scum, but is now active and loud (AAL players are favorites for scum to follow).

I'm going to

unvote ZazieR; vote brothernature

I'm pretty sure he's scum.

I've also got an

FOS DeathRowKitty

for his unvoting of CA. You seemed really adamant about voting Confid. Now to change your vote to a lurker is alarming.

Also, I'd like to

FoS ConfidAnon

because the inconsistencies which DRK pointed out are scary.

heh... BN is scum and DRK-CA are his partners apparently by this post. Everything from PB just changed. FC is now town, EC is just *poof*-a-fied or something... he is following the trends as much as possible.

Stuff on Raskol comin, hold on huns, we can swing this.

[Furry]

Raskol plays the opposite card of PB. He comes in and denounces the DRK-CA wagons, and pushes on the DJ[BN] wagon.

The Zaize thing pushes it over the edge for me though given that I dont think it lines up well with a suspicion of anyone that thinks DJ is scum. Zazie went to town on BN, so anyone thinking BN is scum shouldnt be voting Zazie.

Just noticed we haven't had a post from ZazieR in over a week, though he's active in other threads.

Vote: Zazier

Hopefully a bandwagon will give him some incentive to post.

This is bad. Lurker wagon, of the main pusher of your previous vote. Makes no sense. Especially this close to deadline.

Oh, and for anyone saying ZazieR has an excuse (the "La for school" in the signature)---check his activity in his other games. He has 25 onsite posts

today alone

. If that guy's V/La then I'm a flying raccoon.

So basically---ACTIVE LURKER OMG OMG LYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCH

Zazie plays like this. Have seen it happen, he gets in too many games and does massive post bursts. Anyways, its not active lurking, its not something you lynch on, I still say its argueably a slight town tell for him. I still dont understand the move, especially given the relation of zazie to BN.

Between KoC and BigBear I prefer lynching BigBear as he will leave the most connections behind and has been individually scummier on top of that, whereas my main point against KoC is his position on the wagon and his pushing of a weak anti-town-tell (jester spec) as sole reason for that vote. BigBear's got both of those plus extra.

Really??

So now BN wagon is abandoned, Zazie wagon is abandoned and he is moving on to the new hot topics, vaguely reminicant of his predicessor. I also love how his reason for BB over KoC is having more votes. If they had idenical votes who would be preferable?

unvote

vote: ZazieR

Kill it with fire.

No. Stop. This is couterproductive and scummy as hell. The wagon isnt happening, it goes against your previous reads, and is throwing away your vote.

Also, I'd just like to remind everyone how close we are to deadline.

Says the player who keeps abandoning legitimate wagons for a lurker wagon

I guess I don't care too much, though. I won't be around tomorrow anyway, so you guys can do what you like.

unvote

Die scum die. You take your vote off the player you came in voting, that you moved to the player attacking for lurking, that you temporarily moved to a third party, back to lurker, to third part, to original vote for not full claiming.

I cant follow this logic. There is none.

Now you are going to not vote with a close count, that puts it over the edge to me.

[Furry]

Can you show that Peabody was convinced Far_Cry was scum, Furry? He didn't even vote for him.

Yes

Post 111 – Why didn’t you join the discussion,

Peabody

? Also, can you elaborate on the random vote bit?

What do you mean by joining in the discussion? I felt that most of the RVS was just gibberish. I just decided to observe, and I found Far_Cry to be scummy. My vote on him was not random.

And he voted him in random stage, so the vote was already there.

[Furry]

Still waiting for DJ, if he posts without a claim you can just imagine my vote on him. This is likely my last post for the night, not sure if I get access at work tomorrow. Have to go recheck part of a topo section that I did today since there is a wierd looking jog in the sewer line and do some prelim stuff on an arroyo starting to threaten a line, but I might actually get some access before I get off work.

Worst case scenario I should get back two hours to deadline. So will move as needed then

KoC bullet point case?

[Furry]

Off-topic: That's some fascinatin stuff u got there with the topo and the arroyo and the lines. I've got absolutely no idea what you're talking about but it sounds nice.

I do land surveying for the county sewer department, have to keep mapping out the areas for new lines.

Im not countering the claim. Want to sleep on it. Breadcrumbs though?

[Furry]

Scum DJ could be trying to out a hypothetical cop by getting them to cc your claim right before he gets lynched. And if no cc happens, you will move into night. Then you could use wifom saying you didn't die because scum were thinking you'd be saved by a protection role, and use your now influential position to clear your buddies and lead lynches.

Actually any doc-cop combo with at least one scum PR made with the intention of countering it is bastardly as hell. Then again going into deadline with two players needing replacing is also bastardly as hell

@mod

- Is there ANY chance of a deadline extension, almost 20% of the game needs replacing right now.

After sleeping on it, I dont really like the claim too much. A regular cop in this setup really seems a little top heavy to me. Im not a huge fan of the sudden BB wagon (see previous arguements) and no one is following me on the Raskol push. DJ works well as a partner to him so

unvote
vote DJ

"]

Off-topic: That's some fascinatin stuff u got there with the topo and the arroyo and the lines. I've got absolutely no idea what you're talking about but it sounds nice.

I do land surveying for the county sewer department, have to keep mapping out the areas for new lines.

Im not countering the claim. Want to sleep on it. Breadcrumbs though?

O, so you're like a grown-up doing important stuff, huh? Niiiice. I can't wait til I turn 16, I'm going to become a super model.

And I doubt he can sleep on it because he says he's not going to be around tomorrow or something like that. He's going to disappear V/LA-style like ZazieR. Either way, I doubt you'll find any breadcrumbs. It just seems to have popped up out of the blue due to the votes and the deadline and all.

Im only 21... its just a job while im going to school. Makin me feel old here. Also what job can you have that 10 hour days? I didnt even start working 40 hour weeks untill junior year of HS.

Anyways.

I dont buy no breadcrumbs. You should always breadcrumb, hell if you can make it obvious while at the same time not obvious, its even better. It makes the claim more...

*sunglasses off*

dramatic

*sunglasses on*

[Furry]

i don't like furry's fail vote. reads like a deliberate scum move, and coupled with his set-up speculation when we are in a 12 player mini with one role claimed i would certainly bring him onto the list of suspicion.

You know me messing up a vote on you is only a scumtell if you are scum...

Also cop is always top heavy without some catch to it, I hate cops with a mighty passion.

unvote
vote DJ

This time with patented furry brand success

[Furry]

vote raskol

DRK wagon is very stupid now, he is obv-town. Like really obv-town. I had CA-DJ mixed up yesterday, but this one was right. DJ was pushing hard on DRK, DJ was happy letting DRK drift to a deadline lynch, DRK backed a DJ wagon over KoC, CA and Zazie wagons late D1. There is no way DRK is going to be scum.

If you want you can also look at the fact that late in D1 the two competing wagons were DRK and DJ since CA seemed to be slipping into the darkness. I dont think that I have ever seen scum let the top two wagons both be scum with no hard pushes on any other wagons. DRK scum would mean that scum were kicking back and letting scum get lynched when there were options (about half the game had a wagon). Again this just is not happening. I would almost bet the game on DRK-town at this point.

Also Raskol lynch looks sexier after the DJ/BN scum flip. This means that Raskol moved from a scum wagon to the pusher of said wagon, to never mention the wagon on his partner again. That is the better lynch for today.

[Furry]

Furry, can you show us any other games where you disbelieve cop claims automatically just because you don't like the role?

Ive played mainly open games. Every closed game is different, watching people you can usually get a slight feel for the setup. I actually am still surprised that there was a cop in this game. But I have defended a roleblocker and gunsmith claim (both correctly) and gotten scum who was claiming vanilla townie cop (KoC was in that game, and the mod)

[Furry]

O, and currently listening to one of my favorite songs (Ambling Alps), so I just wanted all of you to have a great day and live life to the fullest. You only have one. I'm just sayin

Trade you perspectives on life. Spending the entire day flagging for a stake job sure takes its toll on views of humanity.

Also 223... not a chainsaw.
Also people should vote who arent voting.

[Furry]

It's not a chainsaw exactly.

It's just that the comment seemed indicative to me of an attitude that didn't become a townie who just had someone lead a bandwagon onto him away from a known gang banger.

Are you picking up what I am dropping down, Furry?

It was a reaction to the "I am town" comment preceeding the vote. When I read it I had one of those *heh* reactions to it and just kept going. I may be wrong, but that comment would not of changed no matter who just got voted.

Also im really confused over the fact that you are almost calling him suspicious because he isnt suspicious of you.

[Furry]

Let me get back to that after he has posted a bit more. Remind me if I forget to.

[Furry]

Unvote :
Vote: Sanjay

How do you know there are three scum?

I was thinking the same exact thing but I didn't want to bring it up, hoping maybe he'd slip again.

Continuing a null tell. 90% of minis have three scum, its not a slip in the least bit.

BigBear's self-vote bugs me.

Far_cry is making me nervous.

Far_Cry's play has been quite strange to me. During the RVS, I have been sitting back and just noting little behavior, and I didn't like things that I saw from Far_Cry thus far.

Far_Cry's post 59 and post 60 makes me a bit uneasy. I think it is a bit strange to failvote and then revote during the RVS. It's a vote that doesn't matter anyway..

Hollow suspicions. All he is coming up with for tells is "strange" and "feels wierd". Not what you try and push a case on.

PB completely drops FC for EC when he [FC] gets replaced (hard to really show this with a quote ok?)

So zazie comes in (for FC) and then PB decides to move to BN, following the player who he was convinced was scum, but is now active and loud (AAL players are favorites for scum to follow).

I'm going to

unvote ZazieR; vote brothernature

I'm pretty sure he's scum.

I've also got an

FOS DeathRowKitty

for his unvoting of CA. You seemed really adamant about voting Confid. Now to change your vote to a lurker is alarming.

Also, I'd like to

FoS ConfidAnon

because the inconsistencies which DRK pointed out are scary.

heh... BN is scum and DRK-CA are his partners apparently by this post. Everything from PB just changed. FC is now town, EC is just *poof*-a-fied or something... he is following the trends as much as possible.

Stuff on Raskol comin, hold on huns, we can swing this.

Raskol plays the opposite card of PB. He comes in and denounces the DRK-CA wagons, and pushes on the DJ[BN] wagon.

The Zaize thing pushes it over the edge for me though given that I dont think it lines up well with a suspicion of anyone that thinks DJ is scum. Zazie went to town on BN, so anyone thinking BN is scum shouldnt be voting Zazie.

Just noticed we haven't had a post from ZazieR in over a week, though he's active in other threads.

Vote: Zazier

Hopefully a bandwagon will give him some incentive to post.

This is bad. Lurker wagon, of the main pusher of your previous vote. Makes no sense. Especially this close to deadline.

Oh, and for anyone saying ZazieR has an excuse (the "La for school" in the signature)---check his activity in his other games. He has 25 onsite posts

today alone

. If that guy's V/La then I'm a flying raccoon.

So basically---ACTIVE LURKER OMG OMG LYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCH

Zazie plays like this. Have seen it happen, he gets in too many games and does massive post bursts. Anyways, its not active lurking, its not something you lynch on, I still say its argueably a slight town tell for him. I still dont understand the move, especially given the relation of zazie to BN.

Between KoC and BigBear I prefer lynching BigBear as he will leave the most connections behind and has been individually scummier on top of that, whereas my main point against KoC is his position on the wagon and his pushing of a weak anti-town-tell (jester spec) as sole reason for that vote. BigBear's got both of those plus extra.

Really??

So now BN wagon is abandoned, Zazie wagon is abandoned and he is moving on to the new hot topics, vaguely reminicant of his predicessor. I also love how his reason for BB over KoC is having more votes. If they had idenical votes who would be preferable?

unvote

vote: ZazieR

Kill it with fire.

No. Stop. This is couterproductive and scummy as hell. The wagon isnt happening, it goes against your previous reads, and is throwing away your vote.

Also, I'd just like to remind everyone how close we are to deadline.

Says the player who keeps abandoning legitimate wagons for a lurker wagon

I guess I don't care too much, though. I won't be around tomorrow anyway, so you guys can do what you like.

unvote

Die scum die. You take your vote off the player you came in voting, that you moved to the player attacking for lurking, that you temporarily moved to a third party, back to lurker, to third part, to original vote for not full claiming.

I cant follow this logic. There is none.

Now you are going to not vote with a close count, that puts it over the edge to me.

What I had on Raskol yesterday.

When you consider flips, this just gets better.

This game needs a kickstart, like a Raskol wagon

[Furry]

*chuckle*

thats the spirit hun

would be nice is EVERYONE gave opinions on this in their next post. There are a few people who are walking quite gingerly around this topic

[Furry]

Feels like Raskol is a big LyALu fan.

Its actually not a lurker wagon at all. Just happens to be a wagon on scum that is getting replaced.

[Furry]

if he doesn't either replace out or start posting soon, i strongly recommend an instant bandwagon on his ass.

No

[Furry]

arc: do you have anything against zaz other than lurking?

I can answer for him

No

Read yesterday, if you think zazie is scum... well... read it again.

[Furry]

I know, thats why a lurker wagon on him is ill advised and really just distracts from the current point at hand.

[Furry]

would be nice is EVERYONE gave opinions on this in their next post. There are a few people who are walking quite gingerly around this topic

Maybe I was not specific enough on this. Some people are just kind of jabbering on about stuff and avoiding the Raskol push I made here. Forcing stances is a great scumhunting tool, people need to take a stance on this.

@looker - Im not too keen on a Sanjay lynch as I dont see it (he says, subtely asking for a case). If Sanjay was unlynchable, who would be your next pick?

[Furry]

Some people are just kind of jabbering on about stuff and avoiding the Raskol push I made here.

By using the word "jabbering," were you saying that there were players talking about nothing of importance and if so, which players specifically?

Looker, arch, fits... dunno where they stand on the wagon im pushing, dont like it either.

Also jabber because Mr. T is awesome, been watching some old A-Team

[Furry]

Looker, arch, fits... dunno where they stand on the wagon im pushing, dont like it either.

I am not suspicious of Raskol/EKT at the moment so I am not on the wagon you are pushing. But that could easily change as I have yet to do an ISO on him and am still intermittently skimming the 40+ pages prior to my joining the game.

When you do this remember that BN was scum

[Furry]

Hai

Deadline is in two weeks.

BB should move his vote, that lynch isnt happening.
Looker should put up a good case or move thier vote.

People should respond to what is presented on them as well.

Now to get ready for volleyball

[Furry]

I thought I did. I can't see any reason to move my vote.

*shrug*

I see sanjay as a more extreme deadline vote. There are multiple people I would rather lynch first, there are multiple people I would rather lynch him then. I just dont see myself voting him without it being a deadline scenario.

[Furry]

And, @ Furry: We may have to go to deadline, I don't know why I thought that was such a bad thing.

The thing is it seems like no one really is interested in that wagon. By stiitin on it doing nothing, you really are just avoiding the rest of the game since you have something to talk about, but it wont ever happen.

[Furry]

I don't think there

is

a rest of the game, Furry...

EKT wagon, KoC wagon and BB wagon. I can respect your opinion of another wagon, but to some extent you have to realize that it isnt going to happen without a lot of other things occuring first, so there are more efficent places to vote.

[Furry]

This is going to be one of those games where someone getting replaced makes the case on them go *poof* isnt it?

Look at the move from BN to BNs attacker.
Look at the him trying to push policy lynch over scummy lynch.
Look at his jump off DJ wagon to not voting.

The look at no one wanting to lynch him today.

If you need me I will be retching in the corner

[Furry]

Looker, my problem with lynching Sanjay is that he is a rather costly mislynch.

??

I don't see Sanjay as scummier than KoC, but i see KoC-town as way more useless than Sanjay-town.

Thats a little repetitive.

This is also a really wierd thing weve got going right now. If we arent lynching EKT... im not even entirely sure where my thought process leads next. I dont like a Sanjay lynch almost purely off my read of him D1, KoC is getting voted on by EKT, we will see on that one. Gut screams arch actually for my next pick, but I would vote BB over Sanjay and KoC.

I just really prefer a EKT lynch, nothing that happened near the end of yesterday points to him being town.

[Furry]

What is a "costly mislynch" as opposed to just a mislynch?

[Furry]

Im not really too sure that its the best thing to answer, as it can actually hurt my chance of a EKT lynch. If you read me close it shouldnt be hard to figure out (or at least predict), but there is a good chance that doing so will stop anyone on either of those wagons from ever leaving them.

[Furry]

Why are you putting stock in "What mislynch hurts the town more?" instead of "What lynch wont be a mislynch?"

If you want to argue one over another put up a case (this is me asking for a nice concise case)

[Furry]

College apps are (essentially) done, so I can now officially go back to putting off my school work in favor of mafia.

The aps are the easy part, although as long as you have decent grades and a few activites you should be fine. I only had a 3.8 with about half AP classes, one sport and one club and got into a good school. What school you shooting for?

Look at the move from BN to BNs attacker.
Look at the him trying to push policy lynch over scummy lynch.
Look at his jump off DJ wagon to not voting.

The look at no one wanting to lynch him today.

He wouldn't be a bad lynch, but right now i feel there are better, especially if KoC doesn't defend himself. Also notice that KoC had an anti DJ-wagon vote, (unvoted without explanation), and ended up not voting.

Raskol did much more direct defending of DJ though through an attempt at a Zazie wagon in a huge overblown reaction. This not only distracted from the whole DJ wagon, but also actively tried to surpass it with a new wagon. KoC didnt vote, but never made an attempt to get a different wagon.

[Furry]

Alright, so we're on the same page! Sanjay is scum! But, of course, the suspicions of Eleven, Cydonia, and Furry individually can't hold much wait; therefore, I propose KoC and Furry get some opinions out here so we can get to rollin'!

What opinions do you really want here?

Im just in a wierd spot. My top suspect apparently no one agrees with me on, and my second pick may actually stand even less of a chance as him to get lynched. Im basically left with third/fourth picks as the only viable wagons if I move, so I really dont want to at this point.

With impending deadline though its looking like its going to be a necessity to move however, which really sucks. I actually (if forced to go between KoC, Sanjay BB) would go with BB at this point, but THAT wagon (while not only being a third pick) appears to be stalling out as well.

Maybe this does mean the best thing I can do though is move to BB, have KoC come with me in self-preservation, and hope remaining scum contain my third suspect since its the only one who might be lynchable today.

I dont like being confined like this.

@KoC - It really isnt hard to mask anger/bitterness, im a great example of pulling that off. Just respond to the few points, make a bit of a case and maybe we can get out of what now is a slow and inevitable switch to that wagon.

@all - There are quite a few of you who are stalling a change that I see coming from you. This is not helpful with a deadline friday. We need the information now.

unvote
vote BB

I can explain this more later

[Furry]

1. BB - No one wants to lynch him, though
2. blah blah - Reason for whatever you're saying

With my vote (and the expected vote from semi on sanjay) its a three way tie. That lynch has support.

O, and

We need the information now.

but

I can explain this more later

?

You knew

somebody

was gonna have something to say about that.

I'm not trying to get you guys to say "Sanjay is scum", I'm just trying to at least get your opinion on not only what I'm saying but the probability of him being scum. Do you think it's likely, do you think it's not? It's not a trap or a trick, I promise. It's just a simple question.

Meeting someone for lunch in 10 minutes. So yeah, later. Signifying intent for wagons to move early is better however.

Also I dont think Sanjay is scum. Chances of me voting him today are near nothing.

[Furry]

Why I don't like Furry's post and vote against me.
-He gives his "top 3" suspects
-Votes his third suspect, while his first listed one is the leading wagon, his second suspect is in 2nd place for a wagon, and his third place (me) has 1 vote I think.
- While he votes me he suggests that KoC should also vote me for self preservation, and then suggests that remaining scum vote as well to "contain" me.
-Yet you say you don't like being confined to this idea.

I don't see how town would vote for their third suspect, while their first is actually leading a wagon.

Break it down...

-Point that does nothing but makes my points looks weak
-EKT has two votes (not leading wagon) and no one else seems interested in voting him. You have two votes already. If not EKT, I actually like an arch lynch, but that isnt happening either.
-I want KoC to vote you more then Sanjay, so will encourage it. Also I insinuated that semi was going to vote sanjay.
-I dont like being confined to a small range of actions. Thats my issue here, best move looks like it wont happen, second has no chance, so I am trying to get my third one to prevent anything worse from occuring.
-Annnnd again... EKT is not a leading wagon. Its basically a dead one, and the longer I push it, the harder it is to not have this be a KoC/Sanjay rundown. Third suspect is better then out of top three lynch.

[Furry]

I live near San Fransisco, it snowed here for the first time in basically forever, so ive been busy enjoying myself.

Going to be pissed if this turns into KoC/Sanjay so will get that stuff up on BB in an attempt to recitify the situation that is brewing. If this doesnt get fixed im going to have to do some serious research because niether of these wagons look appetizing to me.

[Furry]

I live near San Fransisco, it snowed here for the first time in basically forever, so ive been busy enjoying myself.

Going to be pissed if this turns into KoC/Sanjay so will get that stuff up on BB in an attempt to recitify the situation that is brewing. If this doesnt get fixed im going to have to do some serious research because niether of these wagons look appetizing to me.

- I'm going to be thrown for a loop if Eleven turns out to be your scum partner, Sanjay, because Furry and KoC seem to be openly competing for my suspicions.
- There's a pretty yellow butterfly outside my window. Maybe I should go outside and play with all the other kids for once...

Ive seen snow once before sunday, so I took the opportunity to enjoy myself. Getting on that stuff now though, I have about 20 minutes of free time.

[Furry]

Fairly fast rundown on why I like this BB lynch over either of the KoC/Sanjay ones.

I agree in the fact that EC is acting extremely useless (not scum hunting, joking around, and playing stupid). However, I can't wrap my finger on whether that is a scum tell or not.

Shrine writes this to you EC, and you respond with the next post. Is that all? You don't want to defend your case any more? Have you given up?

Aside from those two paragraphs above... no one really commented much on my last post... :/ so there wasn't much for me to rebuttal to... that I could see. I'm satisfied with my vote for the moment.

people to look out for however....
EC - obviously, not acting pro-town. Not really liking him that much. (somewhat a gut read.)
Far_Cry - Somewhat a gut read also. I feel that DRK had a really good post here, regarding the matter.

This is the first suspicion from him that obviously comes after the end of the RVS. There were a few times where he went back and forth coming out with some point, before he reverted back to jokes. This is basically "I suspect the top two suspects on gut", with a vote on EC for putting someone at L-1 (not a tell, if I need to get into it I will).

Much later, he says that EC was not scum, but he just wanted to pressure him instead. That cuts down his suspicion list to "FC on gut from DRKs post". Whole lotta solidness (if thats a word) in those suspicions. The only person he has left is scum he has gut and blame outs on already.

Then comes the pressure on BN/DJ and things get fun

wait... what's the case on DJ at the moment?

He replaced BN. So the case from me against him is the same as the case from me against BN, which was:

Zazie, could you expound a bit on why you voted for brothernature?

-The observing, while not discussing.
-Talking when being called out.
-Vote against Nook.
-Dodging my questions.
-The observations regarding EC
-And the general active lurking when posting.

I guess I just don't know how I feel about that though. That seems to fit with his play style. (aside from the vote about nook, and the obsv regarding EC.) He was rather scummy in the last game too, and we should have lynched him for some of the same stuff that's listed here.

Deadline is still 10 days away, why don't we hold off for the moment, and look else where.

Well wow. Massive defense for BN on meta, which he wipes the entire case away with and tries to move it (to me).

Uhm, correct me if I'm wrong, BigBear, and this is just what I got from my readthrough, but... didn't DRK start the Jester speculation? Because from what I read, DRK made a comment alluding to 3rd parties, then later clarified he was thinking of Jesters when making that comment. So... uhm... explain?

I don't recall him clarifying that he was specifically talking about jesters, I just remember Confid and DRK fighting for several pages to find out who actually started it. I didn't really think that DRK was implying it at the time, although, if he was, then yea, it's obviously scummy. Why I figured that Nook really brought up the jester speculation, is because his remarks didn't seem to connect (at least at first glance), or didn't seem to come from directly from DRK's comment.

If you could show me where DRK said that he was eluding to a jester, that would be helpful.

Then he tries to get DRK lynched instead once nook/me goes nowhere

You're right. I should Unvote: Vote: ConfidAnon, But I was also in the not voting category....

Also, do you mean that I'm not asking questions? and that is why I am scummy?

Bandwagon

FoS

-I was the third vote on you, why are you/were you so worried?
-Bandwagons are quite normal.
-You do realize that I am no longer voting you.

And lets not forget the CA wagon.

So we have an attempt to push me (town), DRK (likely town) and CA (town) all over BN/DJ. Thats hitting on every single wagon, quite literally probing every possible way to get DJ off the block and someone else on at this point.

Oh yeah Raskol too

Getting scum vibes from Raskol based on this post. Feels like fence sitting. Like he needs the details of both wagons so he can vote on one accordingly. He does this (IMO) so he doesn't actually have to come up with a case.

So getting back to it... BB votes DJ when its inevitable.

So quick D1 recap
-Little strong suspicions
-Calls BN town on meta
-Would rather lynch nook(me)
-Would rather lynch DRK
-Would rather lynch CA
-Would rather lynch Raskol
-Votes DJ

No sense is made from this

[Furry]

I'd be playing in snow if I were you.

Im a little old to be going crazy in snow, but my reading spot up on Mt. Diablo is really pretty right now (although really cold)

[Furry]

I'd be playing in snow if I were you.

Im a little old to be going crazy in snow, but my reading spot up on Mt. Diablo is really pretty right now (although really cold)

That sounds beautiful. I've always wanted to ascend a mountain, and I forgot you were one of those things, those

grown-up

things,

yuck

! I'm gonna be like Peter Pan and NEVER grow old!

Im only in my early 20s... Diablo is only about a 4000ft mountain though, even the longest hike is just short of 20 miles round trip. Near the coast though you can see for quite a ways, so its a good relaxation area.

@BB - You jumped it around with what sure looks like intention to save DJs hide day one. You were on every competing wagon.

[Furry]

Swell.

If someone intends to hammer me, let me know. I'll claim.

Problem here is deadline rule. Even if I vote KoC with fitz, you still get deadline lynched.

I should have a final answer tonight as to the whole KoC/Sanjay thing, but more then ever I want that Raskol/EKT/DKU lynch, and would be willing to swing that one.

Will even kick it off!

unvote
vote danakillsu

[Furry]

And don't call me sweet. I'm a guy now, damn it.

Im still gunna call you hun, hun. People are too uptight about that stuff

Vote: dankillsu

Okay, you can vote for this guy today or you can vote for him tomorrow, but unless you can think of a real good answer to the question in my last post, get this guy and then get KoC.

Good Man!

Blatant Un-Self-Preservation is displayed in this post, which does infact back up my early read of sanjay-town. I slightly lean to a KoC vote at this point, but would still be overjoyed with a very quick wagon move

[Furry]

Well, it's nice to know I'm backing up your previous town read on me, but give me a little more credit.

I can totally fake blatant un-self-preservation as scum.

Ah but see, its a huge gamble at this stage of the game with one scum down. Not only does it need to work, but unless you are gettin bussed hard, it likely means that scum will lose flat out. So im taking it as a town tell.

Its like claiming vanilla. I have completely called people right when they claimed it when faced with a lynch, because it can be a town tell if you know how to read it (and it can always be a town tell if its backing up a town read)

@KoC - We are lynching Raskol/EKT/DKU again, please come back

[Furry]

@KoC - We are lynching Raskol/EKT/DKU again, please come back

Two votes=/=a lynch. You'll have my vote if a DKU lynch becomes more likely than a KoC lynch.

You move your vote, KoC moves his vote, and it is.

[Furry]

Request Prod On: archaebob and KoC

Second this... I think we can get a

DKU (4) - Furry, Sanjay, KoC, DRK
Sanjay (4) - BB, Looker, semi, DKU
KoC (2) - AB, fitz

within 24 hours if everyone is active.

From there AB and fitz get to be the deciders.

@KoC - You obviously prefer a DKU lynch to a Sanjay lynch, there is no longer a need to self-pres vote Sanjay as the DKU lynch can happen. Please join us.

@DRK - DKU wagon is back as shown above. Please join us.

@fitz - BB who you think is scum prefers the Sanjay lynch to a DKU lynch. Please join us.

@AB - Bussing your partner would get you some nice brownie points. Please join us.

~~~~

This can happen.
This should happen.
This had better happen.
This just needs to happen now.

[Furry]

What's motivating you to make such a drastic change so late in the day? You couldn't do this earlier? I'm having a feeling that

you're making a mistake

something's up with all this.

Because im that sure that im right here. I tried this more then once earlier to no avail, but a new opportunity showed when the slot that had really been flying under the radar showed scummy again, and had a whole lot of support in the wings.

My ideal move resurfaced, and im going to take it.

I find it interesting how you're pressuring other players to vote your way. This will be interesting if DKU is lynched.

Even moreso if he's not scum, in which case, Furry, I'd have to press pretty hard to get you out of here so I'm hoping you're right.

I know im staking more then I intended on this at the start of the day, but its the right thing to be doing, and I think its more informative then the KoC-Sanjay wagons. Even the move over is worth the information if it takes another day to get DKU lynched.

If he's replacing Knives, then he can still be

your

partner in my book, though I won't press the matter. The only fruitful thing I can honestly do right now is see what happens and how it happens for future reference because only God knows what Furry's up to.

I know exactly what im up to and save KoC not voting (which is annoying) its going exactly as planned. It took too long, but its back on track.

@KoC - Why Sanjay over DKU? You were on the EKT/DKU wagon for most of the day.

[Furry]

KoC, now is NOT the time to have a change of heart. The lynch that you were on for most of the day is happening now, and we need you back on it.

arch needs to move is vote in his next post

[Furry]

KoC, now is NOT the time to have a change of heart. The lynch that you were on for most of the day is happening now, and we need you back on it.

arch needs to move is vote in his next post

Just what I like in the mornings, a Furry Meltdown. Anybody else want some?

This is not a meltdown. That comes if DKU doesnt get lynched.

If arch doesnt move his vote by deadline make sure you lynch him in the next two days.

[Furry]

Now votes are tied. KoC has no reason to not be moving his vote.

This will be the most awesome D2 ever if DKU gets lynched

[Furry]

arch needs to move is vote in his next post

Yeah k whatever, I just noticed this. Not really sure who you think you are, but meh, I guess you got what you wanted.

Can I ask why this mattered to you?

You were throwing your vote away when it was either going to tie or put someone over the edge. It was essential to see who you were backing.

[Furry]

KoC wagon wont happen. Its already proven that town will go for a DKU one over it so I wont move back to it since unless I can get someone from the Sanjay wagon off that wagon, he gets lynched.

Also Furry's Theory of Vanilla (TM) says -

In the event of a player claiming vanilla town in the face of deadline, statistically the chance of them being town increases at a rate that if there is a secondary feasable lynch, the second player is more likely scum then the one claiming. This stems from Furry's Theory of Self-Preservation and Furry's Theory of Town Assuredness.

[Furry]

Actually I have used it very accurately in the past, its all about seeing through which VT claims are from town and which are scum trying to make use of the theory

[Furry]

Furry, you don't seem as sure about who the scum are as I am.

How come?

Im sure on DKU. Im not as sure on who else would go with him. I like my two very strong town reads, and my decent town read. So its DKU and then one of the others, his lynch should tell me who

[Furry]

Here ya are. The reasons that we should be lynching DKU based entirely on his predicessors actions

Unvote :
Vote: Sanjay

How do you know there are three scum?

I was thinking the same exact thing but I didn't want to bring it up, hoping maybe he'd slip again.

Continuing a null tell. 90% of minis have three scum, its not a slip in the least bit.

BigBear's self-vote bugs me.

Far_cry is making me nervous.

Far_Cry's play has been quite strange to me. During the RVS, I have been sitting back and just noting little behavior, and I didn't like things that I saw from Far_Cry thus far.

Far_Cry's post 59 and post 60 makes me a bit uneasy. I think it is a bit strange to failvote and then revote during the RVS. It's a vote that doesn't matter anyway..

Hollow suspicions. All he is coming up with for tells is "strange" and "feels wierd". Not what you try and push a case on.

PB completely drops FC for EC when he [FC] gets replaced (hard to really show this with a quote ok?)

So zazie comes in (for FC) and then PB decides to move to BN, following the player who he was convinced was scum, but is now active and loud (AAL players are favorites for scum to follow).

I'm going to

unvote ZazieR; vote brothernature

I'm pretty sure he's scum.

I've also got an

FOS DeathRowKitty

for his unvoting of CA. You seemed really adamant about voting Confid. Now to change your vote to a lurker is alarming.

Also, I'd like to

FoS ConfidAnon

because the inconsistencies which DRK pointed out are scary.

heh... BN is scum and DRK-CA are his partners apparently by this post. Everything from PB just changed. FC is now town, EC is just *poof*-a-fied or something... he is following the trends as much as possible.

Stuff on Raskol comin, hold on huns, we can swing this.

Raskol plays the opposite card of PB. He comes in and denounces the DRK-CA wagons, and pushes on the DJ[BN] wagon.

The Zaize thing pushes it over the edge for me though given that I dont think it lines up well with a suspicion of anyone that thinks DJ is scum. Zazie went to town on BN, so anyone thinking BN is scum shouldnt be voting Zazie.

Just noticed we haven't had a post from ZazieR in over a week, though he's active in other threads.

Vote: Zazier

Hopefully a bandwagon will give him some incentive to post.

This is bad. Lurker wagon, of the main pusher of your previous vote. Makes no sense. Especially this close to deadline.

Oh, and for anyone saying ZazieR has an excuse (the "La for school" in the signature)---check his activity in his other games. He has 25 onsite posts

today alone

. If that guy's V/La then I'm a flying raccoon.

So basically---ACTIVE LURKER OMG OMG LYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCHLYNCH

Zazie plays like this. Have seen it happen, he gets in too many games and does massive post bursts. Anyways, its not active lurking, its not something you lynch on, I still say its argueably a slight town tell for him. I still dont understand the move, especially given the relation of zazie to BN.

Between KoC and BigBear I prefer lynching BigBear as he will leave the most connections behind and has been individually scummier on top of that, whereas my main point against KoC is his position on the wagon and his pushing of a weak anti-town-tell (jester spec) as sole reason for that vote. BigBear's got both of those plus extra.

Really??

So now BN wagon is abandoned, Zazie wagon is abandoned and he is moving on to the new hot topics, vaguely reminicant of his predicessor. I also love how his reason for BB over KoC is having more votes. If they had idenical votes who would be preferable?

unvote

vote: ZazieR

Kill it with fire.

No. Stop. This is couterproductive and scummy as hell. The wagon isnt happening, it goes against your previous reads, and is throwing away your vote.

Also, I'd just like to remind everyone how close we are to deadline.

Says the player who keeps abandoning legitimate wagons for a lurker wagon

I guess I don't care too much, though. I won't be around tomorrow anyway, so you guys can do what you like.

unvote

Die scum die. You take your vote off the player you came in voting, that you moved to the player attacking for lurking, that you temporarily moved to a third party, back to lurker, to third part, to original vote for not full claiming.

I cant follow this logic. There is none.

Now you are going to not vote with a close count, that puts it over the edge to me.

Also I cant speak for KoC. I thought there was no chance he was scum with DKU at the start of the day, I still think its low but it has definantly grown.

If you get lynched over DKU even AFTER I got someone who I didnt expect to wagon him to join, im going to be livid.

[Furry]

That unvote/vote will make DKU the deadline lynch as during that post the VC was temporarily 5/4.

Im wondering if DKU even noticed that someone had flipped cop. I obviously still want that lynch, but its worth hearing his "result" out even if we are going to lynch him.

For someone who asked - I dont ever remeber seeing two sane cops in one game. I have seen more then one with odd sanities, or multiple investigation varient roles (watch, track, hide, WD etc), but never two sane cops.

Im giddy happy right now though that my instincts were right.

[Furry]

That unvote/vote will make DKU the deadline lynch as during that post the VC was temporarily 5/4.

Im wondering if DKU even noticed that someone had flipped cop. I obviously still want that lynch, but its worth hearing his "result" out even if we are going to lynch him.

For someone who asked - I dont ever remeber seeing two sane cops in one game. I have seen more then one with odd sanities, or multiple investigation varient roles (watch, track, hide, WD etc), but never two sane cops.

Im giddy happy right now though that my instincts were right.

What instincts, Furry?

Scum read instinct. I play by gut then look through the thread to back up my read. Also instinct that DKU was lynchable at the end of the day.

[Furry]

You didn't do that on your own. Give the rest of the town (and a certain scum) some credit, eh?

Yeah, I know. Im just proud that I didnt go with a "meh I can get him lynched tomorrow" attitude and go with a lesser suspect.

[Furry]

I can answer for him since this is something most mods do not like answering due to adding WIFOM, ive been in a game where a mod really screwed up by getting involved and basically cleared a player:

Any player may claim real or made up results. There is no role that I know of that gets results it cant claim. Closest thing is amnesic cop which doesnt get results to start with. DKU, claim away.

[Furry]

Or even simpler -

"Read your role - If you ARE a cop and there is no restriction, there is no restriction"

[Furry]

Need to do some thinking after the last two flips basically dashed all possible scenarios I had planned out.

I still think that DRK-Semi are town, and really dont like this push against him. This holds especially true since so few people think he is scum, that a flip on a wagon opposing him wouldnt do much to clear more

So....

Scum are in AB-BB-Sanjay, I doubt that fitz is scum, but he isnt in the town category that other are, looker is in this grey area too, but closer to town then fitz for things I will point out later if needed.

@Sanjay - What is your role name? Your win condition?

[Furry]

Nothing against paraphrasing. Also you already said you role name is 'Vanilla Townie' right?

[Furry]

The fact that I have him as my second strongest town read by a whole lot

[Furry]

No, I said my role was vanilla townie.

So your role name is "Resident?"

[Furry]

Furry, why are you not being more careful about rule 4?

Run answers by the mod first if you insist.

Rule 4 doesnt seem to say anything about claiming your role name though.

[Furry]

The only thing that I think is a tell on sanjay is that he claimed Vanilla Townie instead of Resident, even when I pressured him on it he didnt flinch on it. As much as this is more the mod catching scum then at least me, its a strong tell to claim the wrong thing. Also I guess its a good lesson on modding practices

Vote Sanjay

EBWOP: That first "win" should say "when". See what I mean?

what about wynne?

[Furry]

*snuggle*

[Furry]

As much as this is more the mod catching scum then at least me, its a strong tell to claim the wrong thing. Also I guess its a good lesson on modding practices

Do you have any good reason to think that scum didn't receive a copy of the vanilla role? Either posting a sample PM or sending one to scum is standard practice and it would be a pretty big mistake by the mod to have not done so. Kreriov's been a good mod and I find it more likely that Sanjay was playing to his values than that Kreriov a major modding mistake.

No you are somewhat missing the point. There are two scenarios that I see

1) Sanjay is town, for some reason he decided to claim VT isntead of Resident. It would be like you are a Mason that doesnt know alignment of a partner so you claim Neighbor. They ARE the same thing, but one is fundamentally the correct claim
2) Sanjay is town, and did not know town wincon/VT name. He made the logically sound VT claim (covers Vanilla Town/Townie, two most common things), but didnt know this game doesnt have VTs.

Its not that I see 2 as absoltely obviously what happened, but more 1 as not happening at all. Sanjay claiming the wrong thing is just so much more improbable then Sanjay not knowing or forgetting his role name.

[Furry]

Why do you think I clarified that vanilla town was the role I was claiming and not the role name, Furry?

Because you dont go around claiming "hey I work with other guys and go around trying to find who has been killing people" instead of saying "im a cop who talks with other cops".

If you are VT that is slightly different, you claim what it really is. This is just looking like an unfortunate scenario where mod messed up and it turned an uphill fight into a lost cause.

And im the only feline here I think

[Furry]

Furry: Why is it yesterday you thought my vanilla town claim made me townier than a bag of chips but you just remembered today that the PM said resident?

Missed this, Mr. Feline.

No I just elected that its better not to comment on it for good reason. I also will continue not to comment on it, for good reason.

[Furry]

What we have here is a failure to communicate

Why do you think I clarified that vanilla town was the role I was claiming and not the role name, Furry?

Because you dont go around claiming "hey I work with other guys and go around trying to find who has been killing people" instead of saying "im a cop who talks with other cops".

If you are VT that is slightly different, you claim what it really is. This is just looking like an unfortunate scenario where mod messed up and it turned an uphill fight into a lost cause.

And im the only feline here I think

You don't quite get what I'm getting at. When you asked me "didn't you already claim vanilla townie as your role name" I was clear on the fact that I was claiming the role vanilla townie and not the role name vanilla townie in my answer.

Claiming resident would of been a better move if you are town. If scum did not have the role, it likely would of nearly confirmed you. If scum had the role, to 'confirm' you, they would have to claim resident. There is no reason not to claim resident that I can come up with. At all.

But given you said previously that the only scummy thing you've noticed about me is this business, I don't really understand your vote on me.

Its a huge tell really. My entire theory about an AB-DKU paring got shot to hell yesterday, I have reason to belive that looker and fitz are at least 50% shots at town odd wise, DRK and semi are basically town. Its you-AB-BB right now.

If an AB wagon becomes a higher chance then a you wagon, then yes I will vote him. Chances of pairing are you-AB, AB-BB, you-BB, however you-AB are significantly higher then AB-BB to a point where AB having the highest probability pairing wise of being the right lynch can be discounted.

@DRK - On avatars alone, im more of a kitt-eh then you are. If you want I can find you a nice one though. My stockpile is fairly large.

Seriously though, the semi-wagon is going nowhere. I am not even sure its a deadline acceptable wagon to me in a game where majority is key. People on it should make better use of their votes. Im looking at AB in particular who is effectively throwing away his vote (again, I dont see semi getting more then three votes) while the person I think is his partner is under fire.

[Furry]

Then you haven't been reading the thread, Furry.

The fact that claiming resident would have practically confirmed me is exactly why I didn't claim resident. If not just for rule 4 reasons, but for general principles of the game reason. The game would seriously be ruined if I had autoconfirmed myself like that.

You missed that explanation? You don't like it? What?

I can see you arguing that alluding to lack of win condition or flavor is immoral, but claiming Resident when that is what your role says you are? That is in no way a cheap move, I think I the only hesitation I would have is fear of a PR saying "thats bull" and outing themselves

[Furry]

Im not going to change my vote unless its to AB, even then its not all that likely even if you disgregard ABs eventual vote of Sanjay for self-pres.

Also what game?
Also I take it you dont want me to find you an avatar? I can even let you pick species... gender... fame...

[Furry]

You left in the middle of a conversation, Furry.

I'd like to complete it.

kay

What?

You just said that claiming resident would nearly confirm me.

How is that not a cheap move?

Resident is a role name. Not claiming resident as one is effectively lying about your role. Im actually shocked you didnt get countered, or at least pressured by someone over this.

'Nearly confirm' may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not claiming your role name is not playing to your win condition as far as im concerned. Playing to your win condition while being nowhere near breaking a rule isnt cheap.

[Furry]

Im not going to change my vote unless its to AB, even then its not all that likely even if you disgregard ABs eventual vote of Sanjay for self-pres.

Also what game?
Also I take it you dont want me to find you an avatar? I can even let you pick species... gender... fame...

You got Nazi kitties? What about political assassins? Try espionage and double agents, too...

I got generic military for sure, dont think nazi and its mostly other animals there. Not quite sure what you are looking for on the others though... assassins creed type stuff and ones in spy gear? Maybe, I would need to do some sleuthing for that

[Furry]

@looker - Here is some stuff. I have more black and white if you want that instead, but most color images are big and I dont want to resize all day long. Most more obvious military stuff doesnt look good avatar sized anyways.




@Sanjay - I have no clue what 'conginative dissonance' means. Not a big word person. What would you of done if DKU claimed resident?

[Furry]

@looker - Maybe you can get something out of this pic? I dunno why but its one ive always liked quite a bit. Will look for what you requested sometime later.

@Sanjay - I have no clue what 'conginative dissonance' means. Not a big word person. What would you of done if DKU claimed resident?

I mean you are believing contradictory things. DKU claimed vanilla town, and yet you are acting like claiming vanilla town in this situation is something town wouldn't do. I know that the fact that one town player does something isn't proof that it isn't a scumtell, but I really don't understand why this tell is so convincing to you given the circumstances.

If DKU had claimed resident, I would be more inclined to believe him. I suppose the mafia might have been given fake claims so it wouldn't autoconfirm him, but him claiming resident would definitely have made him more townish than anything else he said.

I am adament about it because I can not belive one, let alone two people would claim that. It would never cross my mind to claim Vanilla instead of Resident. I may be looking at this from only one angle, but it looks so pretty from this angle.

So you are saying that DKU claiming Resident and Vanilla Town would of elicited the exact same reaction to you? What is DKU was at L-1 and Player X who you though was just as scummy was at L-1. DKU claims Resident and X claims Vanilla, who do you vote then?

[Furry]

I think im starting to get the thought process actually here

I need to look at AB again

[Furry]

O, and
@ Furry: Consider that pic eternally stolen. Much appreciated.

Dont worry hun, I snagged it from someone already. Im not an artist but I do love the art. FA always has a lot of good stuff either way.

Once semioldguy responds to it, Furry, I'd really like to hear your take on my case against him.

Will do.

Before I get to far into why I like one, what are your opinions of an AB lynch?

[Furry]

Hey, Furry, would you by any chance have any ovaries...?

Last time I checked I didnt

Fun way of asking that question though

[Furry]

I have some heeby jeebies about archaebob in this game because he was relatively mellow and unaggressive, which is more in keeping with his scum game, though that could be explained by the inaccessibility of this thread so it is by no means conclusive.

EtherealCookie, archaebob's former identity, was a distant memory. I guess the whole playerslot is due for a reread.

I suppose from a policy lynch standpoint it's a good lynch, but it's not really policy lynch time what with us only having one mislynch left. Plus I think from an objective standpoint, with two votes on me guaranteed town, I'm probably a better policy lynch.

So you would be up for the lynch? This seemed kind of vauge about it.

[Furry]

FA is furryaffinity, which is an art site (although some sections are NSFW, you just have to know your way around it.)

I like the piece though just because everyone has slightly different interpretations of it, which to me is a key element of something like that. Now we are way more off topic then should be in a game though, even though the game appears to just be at a standstill.

[Furry]

FoS no lynch

More tomorrow when im not posting from a party.

[Furry]

You shouldn't post at parties...you should party at parties...u should post from your boyfriend's bedroom.

Was my party and it was winding down. My group of friends does this given that while most of us are pretty detached from family (Its true what they say that we do almost make our own little families) some of us still go there for the big day. Anyways, it just means I should be able to get a few posts in today.

Im a big supporter of a no lynch here though. When there are no obviously town people, its not going to just accomplish the inevitable. I do want ABs replacement to show up and read the thread first before we do anything. Also if we are no lynching, tomorrow is the massclaim and not today.

[Furry]

Who knows the cons of massclaiming today and no lynching tomorrow?

If we massclaim we dont nolynch pretty much period*

Mass claim followed by no lynch allows scum to make a optimal kill as they know everything (roles, action history, peoples views) as opposed to percieved role information and publicized views. Even if we massclaim, scum botches a claim and gets lynched, then we no lynch, scum STILL get the optimal kill scenario.

*I can think of a few situations where a no lynch work, but given flipped roles in this game I doubt one will occur.

[Furry]

I actually dont think that its a good idea to be doing that untill we decide if we are lynching or not. Its just unnecessary information to be giving out. Sadly I think most of you can guess my list (or at least have no one more then one spot off). I dont support doing it unless we are lynching though, and if we are doing it, and we are lynching, it comes before a massclaim.

And yay the holidays are over. No more wierd family interactions.

[Furry]

I would prefer a no lynch all the way

[Furry]

What the wannabe kitty said

Vote No Lynch

[Furry]

Yeah we are waiting for AB before we do anything, but I felt putting visable anti-action to a lynch was the best thing right there. Not slowing the increasing push for a lynch as opposed to a no lynch would of been a bad thing, and putting my paw down with a vote directly accomplished that.

If NL gets to L-1 im unvoting untill an AB replacement shows obviously, although there could be some fun theory discussion from no lynching before a replacement shows.

@DRK - Im a tiger avy sporting tigers skin using furry. I think ive got you beat in the kitty department.

[Furry]

So, while waiting, please enjoy this cool song.

-Love BB.

This and this and this are better. *sig lyrics luv*

[Furry]

The daykill was totally legit. I just daykilled Furry for calling me a wannabe kitty.

Wait is this really serious?

[Furry]

Well that was a fast vote. I think its a bit premature to be voting at this point. Right now I like a BB vote the most though.

More interested on analyzing my town reads though. I have a very strong DRK-town read, a strong SOG-town and after some claims I can elaborate on my Looker read.

Unless ive screwed two town reads, which I normally am good with, BB has to be scum. Still im not voting this early though.

[Furry]

Hey looker, can we start with you for massclaim? I actually do have a reason for this.

[Furry]

Well either way I want lookers actions. I think there is something in there that can confirm someone

[Furry]

Actually hell this may be the most ill advised thing possible, but I am pretty sure that DRK is town. This eliminated the DRK-SOG and DRK-me pairing

vote SOG

@DRK - Post and then I will unvote

[Furry]

wow really?

[Furry]

Well anyways, if SOG was scum and I die, Looker got targeted by KoC N1 I think. Some food for thought at least

[Furry]

I choose to cling to hope that I didnt just throw away the game

[Furry]

I will say this: Furry tricked me subconsciously. In the QT in another game, Furry stated that he'd not had a mafia role in however long a time period he stated - I fell for that subliminal mind game. Good job, Furry, and, SOG, I'm pretty sure you're pissed.

I actually havent been scum where I didnt replace in forever. Ive logged around 20 games that I didnt replace into, have been mafia once and third party once.

When I replace I end up being scum much more often

Dont really mind QTs being posted here

---

Main thing though that was missing for scum was a VT sample. If I knew VT was resident, I would of played D2 differently which kind of put me on edge a bit for the first part of D3. Mostly because it stopped me from being able to claim VT.

[Furry]

Wow, I just got back and am quite disappointed. Furry and DRK were very obvious to me once archeabob was gone, they were on all the lynchwagons. Yes, going against the Sanjay wagon on the day he wasn't lynched is a slight scum tell, and much more helpful to scum in a situation between two townies being lynched.

Im on about every wagon in most games, because if I dont like the wagon, I can almost always shut it down or at least put up an alternative. Being off wagons is actually a bit of a scumtell to me since I dont have to justify a hop that way.

[Furry]

I do have to say I had a lot of fun in this game though. I made this account to loosen up and just enjoy the social aspect of the game more and this one has been the high point since most people decided to play along to a certain extent.