Please expand.Papa Zito wrote:I feel like I can read AGar at this point in my career...
Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over
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Nice to meet you, too, VP Baltar. My name's crypto and I'm proud to say that this game has officially gone into overdrive.VP Baltar wrote:
Your noobness is showing, better tuck that in.crypto wrote:One of {AGar, ODDin, VP Baltar} should be lynched today for not being on the Sando wagon.
Interesting that you assume "noobness" instead of scumminess. If by "noobness" you mean inexperience, it's clear just from my join date and from the fact that this game requires at least two completed games that I'm not new to Mafia. If by "noobness" you simply mean idiocy/mediocrity ... same deal. Why are you so quick to distinguish my comment as idiotic rather than as scummy? Why jump to the "non-alignment-indicative idiocy/mediocrity" conclusion as opposed to the "scum pushing for a wagon on anyone from a set of three players while staying vague about his own reads so that he can give whichever potential wagon seems the most popular a boost for an easy mislynch" conclusion?
ODDin, I think "accusing" is too strong a word. It's just probability. If I don't have any confident scum reads, I'll carve out a smaller pool of suspects that I'm pretty sure I'll find at least one mafioso in, and then I'll reanalyze the players in that pool and vote for the scummiest.
I've completed three games that use the three-man mafia setup. Two times out of three, at least one mafioso hasnotbeen on the day 1 mislynch wagon. I scanned a handful of finished mini normals to make sure I wasn't kidding myself, and in most or all of the ones I looked at, not all scum were on the day 1 mislynch wagon. Maybe I'm wrong, but in the vast majority of games this seems to be the case.
I didn't vote for AGar solely because of the scum-off-the-mislynch-wagon theory. I think he's scummy on an individual level. ODDin is suspicious to a lesser degree. I'm not sure what to make of VP yet. I'll have to reread.-
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You guys are missing the point. It's easier (for me) to find one mafioso out of three than to find one or two or three out of six or seven.
Hmm, okay, I typically make it more than four posts before resorting to the usual methods, but whatever: You're an idiot. Stop being an idiot.ODDin wrote:Regarding crypto: there are the things you said on Raskol, and I agree with you on them. I admit to not seeing it myself, but when you pointed it out, you have a point.
Another issue is crypto's crap argument on the Sando wagon. I want to hear more from him to try to decide whether he was completely clueless or whether he was actually attempting to fabricate weird ass arguments.-
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ODDin, what are your reads on AGar and VP Baltar?
It's not about that. I trust my ability to hit one goon out of a pool of three players a lot more than my ability to hit one or two goons out of a pool of six or seven players.ODDin wrote:It has no mathematical basis (the chances to hit scum randomly in each group are equal at best)
it contradicts the logic of the game - not being on a towie wagon is not a scum tell, and if anything, it's a town tellFOS: ODDin.You know that's wrong. Oh, and I didn't call it a scum tell. I'm saying I find it very likely that there's scum among the three of you.
I didn't say it was hard to keep track of eight people. I'm saying that typically it's easier to pick scum out of a small group than it is to pick scum out of a big group.The game isn't large. Currently you only have to keep track of 8 people - even this isn't so hard.
Wanna reveal those ways, O Mighty One?And even if it is difficult for you (seeing that you replaced in pretty close to the deadline), there are MUCH better ways to choose a group of people to focus on.
You're still being moronic.Instead, you're making a really lame excuse as to why you're choosing a specific group of players to focus on.
You just said that. Also, you're still being moronic. Also-also, I already said that wasn't the primary reason for my vote for AGar. Also-also-also, I didn't say I suspected any of those three players. I already told you "accusing" was too strong a word. Stop misrepresenting my posts and/or stop being a terrible reader.So, yes, I think you're making up bullshit reasons to vote and suspect people, which is scummy.
Why can'tIs my coming vote OMGUS? I'll let everybody else be the judge of that.Ibe the judge of it? Anyway, yes, hopping off your super-awesome Troll/PZ soapbox to vote for me because you think I'm mathematically deficient and scum-hunting illogically is 100% OMGUS. It's especially delicious when you ignore Raskol all game and then suddenly claim to have had an epiphany about Baltar's points versus him.
I think this needs more emphasis. You go from finding my math/method flawed and stating indecision about whether or not I'm just a bad player to voting for me ... because you find my math/method flawed. And then you essentially admit that what you're doing may look like OMGUS, but you don't even bother arguing to the contrary. Wait a second. You didn't actually bring up any new info to support your vote, other than the fact that I'm adamant in my stance. ODDin, you've built a truly rock-solid case against me. I'm ashamed for having ever challenged you; you are clearly the superior scum hunter.
Meh, I just want to know what he's seeing in AGar that makes him think AGar's town, and what sorts of things he's noticed AGar-scum do that AGar hasn't done here. I'm more interested in AGar than PZ at the moment.charlatan wrote:You're calling PZ out for not explaining reads, but apparently not expounding on them yourself, either.-
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"If anything, it's a town tell" isNo, I don't know it's wrong. Also, I said it isn't a scum tell, and you apparently aren't saying it's a scum tell either. So how is this wrong, exactly? Notice that I didn't say it's a town tell - though it might be under certain circumstances.vastlydifferent from it's a town tell "under certain circumstances." (Yes, "If anything, it's a town tell" was my issue with what you said.)
Well, I'm trying very hard not to actually call you a moron or an idiot and rely instead on adjectives, but yes. I know from experience.I see that calling me a moron / idiot is a favourite defence tactic of yours. This is gonna get you places.
False. You're either (a) misconstructing what I said, (b) really bad at reading, or (c) unaware of what the wordThe fact that you limit your search to 3 peoplesearchmeans.
False. Pretty clear I'm calling AGar scummy. I could have worded that better.you aren't even accusing or calling scummy
False.3 people who are the only people you're looking at at all.
Oh. When I entered the game you were just completely limbo and had no decent scum reads. My mistake. I understand now.1) I unvoted PZ for reasons which had nothing to do with you. There was miscommunication between us, I didn't understand some of the things he was saying, the issue was clarified (thanks to OJ), I realised that in light of the clarification my vote on him as very weak, I unvoted.
Then you are chronologically challenged.4) It does feel like you're OMGUSing me, however. Very much so.
To discredit me? *shrug* I don't really care. I'm not interested in pursuing a case on you at the moment. If I did I assure you my case against you would be much more ... existent.6) Still, it escapes me how voting you would help me if I were scum. For crying out loud, I'm the only one voting for you. I have more votes than you.
If you expect me to take you seriously, stop attacking my apparent inexperience (which is stupid anyway since I seem to have played more games than you have, Mr. Math Genius, and since experience doesn't matter one bit in the first place) and start attacking my apparent scumminess. Stop pulling stuff out of your ass while your at it.-
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I can examine all players and still focus on a small group. I'll certainly give a little more focus to that group when I'm short on time.ODDin wrote:crypto - you're full of shit and you're contradicting yourself. If you're NOT limiting the scope of your scumhunting to only 3 people, then the whole thing with "it's easier to search for scum among 3 people than 6" loses its point.
No, I saidWhen I talked about you accusing people / calling them scummy, I obviously referred to the 3 people you mentioned as a group. You mentioned AGar separately, yes, but you included myself and VP in those who should be lynched.oneof you should be lynched. There's a significant difference. Again, stop twisting my words.
It wasn't an accusation. And ... oh, copypasta. You just don't get it, do you? No, I saidYou only "accusation" of VP remains to this point that he wasn't on a townie wagon D1, and yet he's one of 3 people you believe should be lynched today.oneof you should be lynched. There's a significant difference. Again, stop twisting my words.
Sure. I accused you before and then voiced a stronger accusation after. Whatever floats your boat, ODDin.Regarding chronology, you've begun accusing me much more severely and actively AFTER I expressed a desire to vote for you.
I was unaware I need a case for a suspicion.Also,
So, you FoS me based on a nonexistent case?crypto wrote:I'm not interested in pursuing a case on you at the moment. If I did I assure you my case against you would be much more ... existent.
I'm not tunneling and I'm not inventing lame excuses. If this is all you still have to say then shut your fucking mouth because you're wasting your time and my energy.I'm attacking you for tunneling and inventing lame excuses for tunneling.
Yes, actually, I read/skimmed twenty-one pages in one night to replace into your precious fucking game, which you weren't even fucking participating in a week ago, with four days to your precious fucking deadline. I had zero reason to build a case on AGar when (a) he was already a popular lynch choice and (b) I wanted to walk the line between him and Zorblag as my top suspect before Zorblag posted his long-awaited analysis. If you really feel the need to make me, crypto, build a case on AGar, then I will, but I see zero motivation to do so.While we're at it, have you read the game at all? You've barely said anything of substance regarding the entire game.
Also, refer to my first post. No, wait, don't. You'll probably insist that I just flipped to a random page and quoted some random line to make it look like I was actively participating, despite my evident interest in AGar.
See above. Also, ease up on the rhetoric. It makes my eyes bleed.Are you, perhaps, just happy to argue with me with idiotic one liners that go nowhere hoping it'll make you look very active and then we'll forget you didn't bother with actually reading the game or commenting on real stuff?
What about it?Also, I like 544 by Zorblag.-
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VP Baltar wrote:I really hate that you're saying "I don't have to contribute because the person I want to get lynched is already likely". I mean, if that's not a scum mentality, I don't know what is.
I want your case on Zorblag before he posted please.VP Baltar wrote:So, what's your point? I don't have to probe anything about you to have a feeling about your play in this game. It's not like I'm pushing for your lynch without putting out a case. If I feel you have been scummy enough that I want you lynched, I'll bring a full case. Don't worry.
Omgosh, crypto, you suck so much!AGar wrote:I do now. Crypto.
lolHis general attitude since coming in has really rubbed me the wrong way.
*bangs face on keyboard till forehead splits* I posted my source of info. It's experiential. You're trying to construe it as me making an incredibly stupid scum slip, and that premise is incredibly ... well, stupid.The information he is so confident in having just shouldn't be there. His assurances that scum are amongst myself, ODDin and VP isn't something I think he'd be so confident in without information.
Oh, so you thinkThis highlights the bulk of what I want to address: how are you so sure that a scum player was on the wagon AND not on the wagon? How can you be sure that all three weren't on it, or that any of the three were? Got extra info for us?allscum were either on or off the Sando wagon?
Will try to get some AGar points up tonight. Sort of lacking in motivation at the moment.-
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Go back and read. I was very clear about why I think what I think.Yep. I'm trying to construe you that way. Damn right. Because it looks that way.
Again, go back and read. But if you agree with me that all three scum weren't either on or off the wagon, then why is it even a problem for you?Uh, no. I was questioning your information and how you were so sure. Nice try though.-
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Much more rushed than the Sando wagon, IIRC.Ojanen wrote:crypto, how would you compare that wagon to the Sando wagon in terms of deadline rush?
Did you read the complete game before deciding to concentrate on the off-wagon voters btw?[/quote]
I've read some of it and skimmed the rest.
FOS: Papa Zitofor the AGar part of post 580. Not sure what to make of the flip-flop. Could be busing if AGar flips scum, but then I'd be disappointed if AGar didn't lynched, so ... meh.
I do agree with PZ to a degree about ABR. Disagree about Ojanen.-
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All right, Captain, here's my case:VP Baltar wrote:@crypto 557-the two posts you quoted from me do not show a difference of opinion in the least. As a replacement, especially into a suspicious slot, you have an obligation to prove your towniness to me. A case on alleged suspect Zorblag would help that. Get chopping or get lynched.
Too many questions, too few stated suspicions. General bad feel to his style.
Satisfied? Wait, no, don't answer. Building a case versus not building a case on a player is not alignment-indicative, as far as I'm concerned, especially when I really am not interested in pursuing that player.-
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I didn't really think "Captain" was a serious insult.VP wrote:Well, that's at least better than what you had before. Also, why do you insist on trying to insult every single person that questions you?
I know you did. Reading the thread is not a town tell, PZ. Going from hardly mentioning or interacting with me to accusing me simply because I posted aPZ wrote:I just reread the thread. You really are playing a scum game atm.verygentle/hesitant FOS of you (while still agreeing with some of what you said) has piqued my interest, though.-
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You are scum because you only started posting content around 10 posts into your iso., because after that you still posted very little content, because you OMGUSed ekiM, because you OMGUSed me, because you played the newbie card, because your vote for ODDin was horrible ("Seemingly empty vote to start off a day"? – lol), because of your "You guys should be pressuring me more!" deal, because your spiel about how you found Sando suspicious even after his flip is a load of contrived BS, and because I don't believe your suspicion of ODDin computes with your newfound suspicion of me and general neglect of ODDin following iso. 29.
Oh, and I HIGHLY doubt you would've posted iso. 30 if you really think ODDin is scum.-
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That said, I feel a little guilty for the lack of instant gratification in the above post.
It sucks. I'm really not getting a gut feeling for this game. Hopefully I'll shit out something decent post-reread.
It still irks me how PZ said AGar wasn't playing like scum but then admitted he wasn't playing like town, either, after I badgered him over and over for specific reasons (which he didn't really give, IIRC) and proceeded to hop on the wagon. So for now—
Vote: Papa Zito.-
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I'm fine with claiming, I guess. I understand my play's beenprettyreally lackluster so far. That said, I am a little pissed off—and a little disturbed and suspicious—that people want to dive right into claims without any discussion. You guys really have NO leads?
I claim the entire state of Vermont.
(Finally got around to printing out day 1. Rereading it whenever I get a few minutes.)
Scien, why do you want to vote me?-
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No, the state of mind just irritates me.Do you really want me to explain why I want you two to claim earlier rather than later?
Should claim TODAY now that Troll's basically waved a flag over his head that says "PR."I will ask one more question about the claim stuff. If we are only in Mylo, why claim a day early? If we have a power role, why take away a night of his? Really asking Zorblag here, since he suggested this stuff.-
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Ramp, your case on Scien?
And guys, hi, I already claimed.
I'm leaning toward having charlatan or ABR claim, due largely to ekiM and Amished. But I still want to finish my reread and get some stuff out of the way before we move forward.
Oh, and I'm not really a fan of mass claims, but I hate no-lynch at least as much. Whatever.-
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Zorblag, what is your role's official name (PM)?
Okay. Anally reminding everyone not to confirm/challenge the validity of PZ's role. Please and thank you.
PZ, I'm pretty sure there are some basic setups out there with one or two power roles that the mod could punch in at the last minute. It doesn't have to be all vanilla.-
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If someone contradicted him I'd have beenVP Baltar wrote:
So, who would have been scum out of that to you? I don't see why you would expect someone to contradict him if your PM says the same thing.crypto wrote:Yeah, well, mine's also town. I was hoping someone would contradict PZ, but retrospectively that would be a really stupid move.considering—italics are key as I believe some mods do vary VT PMs—charlatan and whoever contradicted PZ.
I'm still not sure about this. I like Zorblag's argument that if charlatan's faking then this isn't LYLO anyway, but I think there's a VERY HIGH likelihood a power role was killed (why the flying feck would you kill ODDin?), and Sando might've been a PR who didn't get the chance to speak up, though I'd have to look back because I can't remember how active he was in the moments before he got lynched.
Blah, I guess that's what Troll's getting at with his criticism of PZ's "mountainous" defense.
What Troll said. Crypto no have Raskol's first role PM.Scien wrote:Crypto, did you ever claim your first role?
Whoa. Not liking the VP/Troll tag team here. Your (plural) line of reasoning okay, but I find PZ throwing items into the mix (a) outlandishly imaginative and (b) not worth the risk. If he was lying, why wouldn't he just say he was bulletproof?Baltar wrote:Also, upon further reflection, he is likely lying about the bulletproof vest. I don't see a mini normal being allowed to have "items" instead of roles. Doesn't really seem normal to me.
For PZ-scum, charlatan's point a few posts back (which obviously has ended up sprinkled through VP's and Trolls' arguments) works best for me:charlatan wrote:I'm inclined to think that an actual townie's move would probably be to try and display how I'm scum instead of arguing about the setup. Hell, I wrote a half page on why I targeted who I did and why I claimed when I did, which he should be trying to rip apart. Or to fight for his own innocence, as silly as it may seem, to avoid getting lynched.-
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Sorry, I was unaware that limited access is a scum tell. If you look, I haven't posted in any of my games for a day or two. I would have voted for PZ, though. Balt, I find your argument sort of flimsy considering I've been probing and suspecting PZ for some time now, when other players haven't.
That said, if Ihadgotten the chance to post yesterday I'm not sure I would've voted then and there. The Baltar-Zorblag push still gives me a sour feeling. But if PZ flips scum, I'll feel a lot better. If he doesn't, charlatan's an auto-lynch anyway so it doesn't matter (assuming—or rather hoping to God—that we aren't in MYLO).
But yeah, come deadline I'd have to go with PZ. He just hasn't defended himself adequately, and charlatan-scum absolutely wouldnothave had to fake-claim in order to get a mislynch today. Hell, there were several relatively easy lynch targets, myself included, and if anything I think a fake claim would've been an obstruction. Even if charlatan did fake-claim, I'd think he/she/it would frame an easier target than PZ and avoid the whole "Tracking PZ makes no sense, therefore you are scum!" insanity. There's really no plus for charlatan-scum to choose PZ over me or maybe Scien or . . .
Oh, and back to PZ, I still find his AGar meta and day 2 flip-flop incredibly scummy. AGar wasn't playing like he does as scum . . . but then PZ admits he isn't playing like town either, and uses that to push the wagon. Lollery.
I'm still not grasping this game very well on an intuitive level. It's irritating to have to go back and reread isos. over and over to force out a read on a particular player. I guess that'd make sense if there are only two mafiosi, but I really don't see that happening (shrug). Guess I'll do yet another reread of some sort tonight.
For good measure, despite the hammer:
Vote in spirit: Papa Zito.-
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Wow. I apologize to everyone for my absolutely atrocious play this game, especially since I replaced in. I don't know what the hell was wrong with me; I was just completely out of it and getting any solid town/scum reads at all was a damn chore. Just bizarre. Without a doubt my worst game on this site. -_-
Ojanen had me 100% fooled all game. She and Scien were the only people I had written off as town. Charlatan was almost as convincing until I did a meta of him and saw that he was capable of making pro-town-looking text walls as scum. While I was doing my reread I found ekiM much more scummy than I did during my first read-through, but charlatan's claim ... I don't even want to think about it. ABR was the only mafioso I was even close to being right about.
Yecch. Sorry for the vacuous play, guys.-
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