Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[Sanjay]

(That was not me responding to BigBear's posts directly)

[Sanjay]

What's scummy about the case is, it came up nearly out of no where, and most of your points against me where in the first 10 pages, why did it take you 30 pages to get to them? Your case against me, is similar to your defense against my case against you. If you follow that. Basically, there was a large gap between my actions, and your case, all the while you were still active in the game. It felt that you were trying to derail DJ's wagon near deadline. While My case against you was rather delayed, it was because I was inactive. now you are blaming me for not bringing the case up earlier, and that's pretty much your defense against my case, that i'm scummy because I didn't bring it up right away. I can say the same thing against you. I'm just saying.

I have explained why my case came late, and you have explained why my case on you was late, and you have explained why my case on you was late. If I have a problem with your explanation, how is it relevant that there is this similarity between our cases. I'm just saying.

Also, if you policy lynch people for jester speculation, why haven't you given Furry any trouble? Bagel bites, man. Nook did just as much jester speculation as DRK did.

Negative. DRK brought up the Jester Idea. Nook appeared to be clarifying, in some sense. Though you could pin him with bringing it up, I still feel that DRK heavily hinted at it.

Not a big deal because I guess I can believe you misread the conversation as town because it seems like everyone did, but I'm almost certain nook started up jester speculation independently of what DRK said.

How was DRK's wagon ridiculous?

The people voting on it were doing it for lazy reasons and I felt like the justification for voting for DRK, a player I felt was relatively pro-town, was pretty lousy.

Uh, so because I incorrectly assumed that you actually read the thread, somehow I'm in the wrong?

I just don't understand why you were surprised that I wasn't voting for you.

Because I lead a bandwagon towards you away from scum? Do you not recall the reason you are voting for me now?

It's not baiting. It's INCORRECTLY ASSUMING YOU AREN'T TERRIBLE.

So I didn't fall for your trap?

It's not a trap to assume that town-BigBear would act like I would expect town-BigBear to act.

Also, what did that have to do with the post you linked to?

It is what I felt was baiting i think.

I guess so. I wanted to see what would happen if I called for a bandwagon. If you want to call that baiting fine.

I can see reasons why a town power might want to soft claim instead of full claim.

I disagree, a "town" player soft claiming and refusing to full claim at L-1/L-2 is scummy in my eyes.

That's not a disagreement. That's an irrelevant statement to my point. Easy mistake, I know. How does you thinking that conflict with me seeing reasons why a town power might want to soft claim? Hint: It doesn't.

I can see reasons why a town power might not want to full claim, because if they actually are town power, it only really helps the mafia. I guess general best practice is for town power to full claim, but that doesn't change the fact that I understood the perspective DJ was faking.

No, because at L-1 soft claiming is a way for scum to persuade town into keeping them alive for a night. If town were to be at L-1 they are more likely to full claim in hopes of the town believing them, and if they have several investigations completed, or actions that would make sense, the town would be more likely to keep them around. I've seen more scum soft claim at L-1 then town. The only time I really soft claimed was early in day 2 in Day Night Mafia, then I claimed shortly after. But generally as town I full claim right away.

BigBear, whether I am town or scum, please assume that I am a rational person that has some reasoning behind what he is saying.

YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT SOFT CLAIMS, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU DID NOT VOICE THEM ON DAY 1, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SITUATION.

If you don't understand why, ask.

So you probably have some insight into what KoC is trying to pull here, right? We are all kind of in the dark about this so if you want to explain that one, that would be solid.

Why do you think that I know what's going through his head? He's practically going AWOL. [/quote][/quote]

Well, what did you think KoC was doing when you approved of it?

Your endorsement of his behavior probably isn't scummy, but it was really anti-town.

Just like town-BigBear, I feel like archaebob has special reason to mistrust me. I hardly think two people constitute everyone.

Does this deal with Meta?

Yup. I broke archaebob's heart once.

sure :X whatever?? (What does TLDR mean :X)

TLDR: Too Long, Didn't Read. I like to summarize my points after a really big post sometimes. Makes everything more readable.

Was your point that you are scum?

I don't know because I only read pages that have lynch scenes on them.

That's a nice hasty generalization there. And i can prove you wrong. Just look at This post.

I was making fun of you for your claim that you only read page 41. How did you not get that? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way)

Because a week is so long to remember that someone tried to vote for you for extremely scummy reasons.

Why even vote? Because DRK asked you to? The deadline lynch rules made your vote entirely irrelevant.

Besides, page 41 is a really wacky page. You are telling me that reading that didn't make you the least bit curious to look back a page to see how we came to that?

This all just seems so implausible, BigBear.

1. It is, especially if I didn't read page 40 right away.
2. Yes, I was unaware of the deadline rules, and there was no way another lynch was going to occur.
3. How is it wacky? Nope, I wasn't curious. If I looked at page 40, i would have been mostly concerned with the case against DJ, not you.
4.It's really not. You just don't want to believe me.

BigBear, you are asking me to believe you are a very anti-town player. Tremendously anti-town. Should I not consider that implausible?

If you had brought this up a week ago, you'd have a relatively good case against me that would happen to be wrong. I wouldn't be suspicious of you for that. I really don't see what is inherently scummy about my day 1 post against you as you implied, but duh duh duh, I've been over this a thousand million times that I wouldn't be suspicious of you if you had come out of the gate swinging at me.

It's just that you used a bunch of EARLY day 1 activities (first 10 or so pages) to build a semi case against me, and used it 30 pages later. It just seems fishy to me, and like you were trying to derail the DJ wagon.

So when are you going to start reading day 2? Tomorrow I guess?

Sanjay, what is your case against Eleven?

Basically, Raskol's unvote was very weird and while less successful than me, I'm kind of suspicious of him for trying to lead a competing bandwagon away from DJ. Read my posts for more information.

Before you accuse me of hypocrisy, it's not like I have ever pretended that leading a competing bandwagon away from scum wasn't a scumtell.

Also, scum may just resort to a screw you attitude to try to avoid lynch

I half expected to see a KoC Post there.

So what are you suggesting? Zazie's replacement is scum with DJ?

Was this a mistake? I believe semioldguy is Zazie's replacement. Otherwise, clarify?

So, in loo of recent events, do you mind reiterating your case against me? That I may shoot it down... again.

Don't remember this happening the first time.

Life Lessons from BigBear

1. Whenever player A put a case against player B, Player B will always think it's shit.

Is this supposed to apply to me? I don't think your case against me is shit. I was saying it happens to be wrong and I am suspicious of you for how late it came.

Though actually,

Unvote

I had a breakthrough.

[Sanjay]

BigBear lying about not having read day 1 until like ten minutes ago, while implausible, is just as implausible from a scum perspective as a town perspective. If he is scum and he was aware of my case against him all along, would he really wait so long on voting for me? Why wouldn't he just go after me right away?

As implausible as it is, I have to admit that he is probably telling the truth, that he didn't read the thread when voting, that he's tremendously anti-town, and unfortunately, town.

Dang.

Plus all this obnoxious righteous indignation bullshit he is giving me is giving me a town read on him.

[Sanjay]

KoC, it's a little early to make that judgment, don't you think?

Stop being so ridiculously anti-town.

[Sanjay]

Good one, Looker.

But it's true besides. Deadline is on Friday. No reason to make a "well I got to save myself" vote now.

Thoughts, KoC?

[Sanjay]

I'd be happy to respond to specific questions you had a problem with, but in general, most of my questions did not result in strong reads so I wasn't inclined to strong follow-up.

semioldguy, respond to this.

Here are some question marks if they help:

?????????????????????????????

[Sanjay]

Concerned about me being lynched today? Not really. It certainly could happen, but I'm not that worried about it.

Concerned that KoC is being very anti-town? Definitely.

Concerned I might have been wrong about my town read on KoC? Possibly.

The expected town response to "I see why you have been anti-town but could you please stop it" is to stop it. I don't know what's up with that. And his vote was kind of self-preservation-y. So I don't know.

But if I have to vote KoC to save myself I'm certainly going to feel a lot better about it.

[Sanjay]

Oh, I forgot we need to get a claim in and everything before we lynch. I guess we do need to go into deadline mode right now.

Everyone needs to get posting like a mofo right now because it would be really solid if people actually commit to some real votes this time.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, there are a lot of people who aren't too enthusiastic about my wagon.

Maybe actually bring up some examples to support your case? It might help you out.

[Sanjay]

Fact is, if you think BigBear is likely scum and you don't want to elaborate on this secret parroting and adding no content that I was doing, I don't really see your case.

[Sanjay]

Here are the things I see you have posted against me:

So far Sanjay is my top suspect. On day one I really dislike how he seemed to mediate the argument between DeathRowKitty and ConfidAnon. To me it looks like scum trying to keep a fight going between two players while he doesn't really take a stance on the issue the whole time he remains a part of discussing it. When that issue was later he-hashed with replacements coming in, Sanjay did a little more fence-sitting on the issue. Sanjay also does a lot of parroting and following throughout the game.

Also not wanting to lynch the soft claim at the end of yesterday as well as not wanting the full claim?! Seriously?! (could say something similar about Looker, but have gotten better vibes from her thus far)

Early on in my read I was thinking to myself what exactly you had contributed. When I looked back, it looked to me as though you had contributed very little despite your large amount of posting. You don;t really bring much original content and most of what you do is ask questions with little to no follow-up as to reads on the answers (to be fair, a good portion of your questions didn't get answers due to flakiness this game so far). I see this behavior as scummy because it gives off the appearance of being helpful (asking questions) without really being all that helpful yourself.

Here are some things I ABSOLUTELY DON'T SEE:

Me not adding much content to the game.
Me doing a lot of fence sitting.
Me doing a lot of following in this game.
Me doing a lot of fence-sitting on the issue of ConfidAnon vs DRK when the issue was rehashed.
How asking questions isn't helpful anyway. I had very good reasons for most of my questions.

Maybe I'm too close, but someone seriously read through the thread and concentrate on me and see if semioldguy is full of garbage.

[Sanjay]

Oh, I also don't see me doing a lot of parroting in this game either.

[Sanjay]

You shouldn't have to comb through the thread to find these things.

You already talked about them.

[Sanjay]

Hey, Sanjay,
Are you hoping for a last-minute wagon on Semioldguy or are you just trying to get him to move his vote?

The former would be nice but I have no hope for the latter. If semioldguy is town and telling the truth, he seems quite committed to the wagon. If semioldguy is mafia, I don't expect him to admit "yeah, everything I was saying was BS. My bad".

Are you hoping that, if you point out flaws in his speculations, that you'll somehow encourage other people to drop their votes on you?

Given the people voting for me, no.

Are you hoping that by pointing out SOG's speculation flaws that you'll encourage others to vote your opposition?

Not really my primary aim.

My main motivation is I've recently ISO read myself since semioldguy accused me, I really don't see where he is coming from, and I think he is BSing.

I think it would help the town if he backed up his arguments, especially if I end up being the lynch today.

[Sanjay]

I'm guessing you're not familiar with sting maneuvers, are you? Either way, what will come will come.

This applies to you, too, y'know.

Is there something you'd like me to expand on, Looker?

[Sanjay]

So Furry, one of the reasons you are suspicious of me, is because I spread my votes around?

You missing some life lessons, BigBear?

[Sanjay]

Is it not scummy if it isn't close to the deadline, BigBear?

[Sanjay]

Oh? How would you have phrased it?

[Sanjay]

Is it not scummy if it isn't close to the deadline, BigBear?

Yes?

Ok, you know when there is a high likelihood of Player A being lynched?
After that point in time happens, there really isn't much turning back (except for when there are two likely lynch candidates) , At that point, if I had been throwing my vote around like nobodies business, then yes, it would have been scummy.

This is just not correct, BigBear. When there is a low likelihood of scum being lynched, that is

exactly

when I would expect scum to play to benefit their scum buddy.

You disagree?

[Sanjay]

Oh? How would you have phrased it?

Is it scummy when it is close to deadline?

Not only did you answer the easy question and ignore the scumhunting question, but your answer to the easy question was wrong.

What the heck?

[Sanjay]

Bummer.

[Sanjay]

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

I don't really know who my favorite lynch is right now now that I'm not too passionate about BigBear. But I am fine with this one and it is probably the only one I'm going to get.

My thoughts on BigBear: He doesn't respond to my defenses and he doesn't really respond to my attacks, or to Furry's attacks. He's being really anti-town and I wish he'd stop. I don't know if that adds up to him being scum or what. I kind of feel like he better be or what the hell is up with him, but I kind of feel like it is what the hell is up with him.

KoC has been even more unhelpful, and I definitely can see KoC flipping scum. If he does, it

probably

clears BigBear, because it seems really weird for all three scum to pile on DRK day one.

[Sanjay]

Swell.

If someone intends to hammer me, let me know. I'll claim.

[Sanjay]

Oh, you're here, semioldguy?

[Sanjay]

I've been talking smack about you.

You gonna take that?

[Sanjay]

You are at L-1, two days before deadline... is there a reason you wouldn't claim?

If I'm not going to be today's lynch, there's really no reason for it.

I suppose if it goes to deadline I got to 5 first so I will be, but I don't see your point.

[Sanjay]

danakillsu, tell me more about my marvelously suspicious ways.

[Sanjay]

I don't know anything about danakillsu's opinions.

[Sanjay]

How?

I wasn't honestly claiming to know all three scum. Why wouldn't I back off?

[Sanjay]

Yes, I would.

But if I'd act the same way regardless of me being scum or town, I don't see why it is scummy.

[Sanjay]

Oh? Why?

[Sanjay]

Because I don't know anything about danakillsu's opinions I don't know how committed he is to my vote.

Duh?

[Sanjay]

I mean, semioldguy, do you honestly think his reasons for voting me are very good?

[Sanjay]

Ignoring my question for a reason Sanjay?

The point that you don't know anything about danakillsu's opinions doesn't seem like a valid reason for why you think you might not be lynched today. If you think it is you'll have to explain it to me because I don't see it.

Besides, get out of my face with that "ignoring my question for a reason" jibber jabber.

Even if you didn't understand my answer, it was still obviously an answer to your question.

[Sanjay]

Excessive?

[Sanjay]

Fine.

What do you think about danakillsu's reasons for voting me?

Skip that one?

[Sanjay]

He replaced in for Knives, Looker.

And it looks like he's your new best friend.

[Sanjay]

Well, I'm not claiming unless someone intends to hammer.

[Sanjay]

Aw, that's sweet, Looker.

Honestly, I'm not too optimistic about persuasive arguments and overlooked details given the people on my wagon. None of them strike me as very easily persuadable. Pretty sure I'm going to be the lynch.

But I don't see why I should be lynched now unless there is a sixth person who wants me lynched. There's no reason for a town to wait unnecessarily, but we have plenty of reason to wait. I'd like to write up my reads on everyone (not that they are definitive, just to give you guys something to talk about), and we have a player who just subbed in who hasn't provided opinions on anyone but myself.

[Sanjay]

I'm not so sure danakillsu is automatically scum just because he was in on my lynch.

If Knight of Cydonia is scum, then yes, I see danakillsu's actions as being blatantly protective of his scumbuddy, but otherwise I think a better explanation is that danakillsu is just really new to scumhunting and he isn't very good at it.

If KoC is town, I think scum-danakillsu would more likely not get involved.

And I'll call anyone sweet I want, damn it.

[Sanjay]

Huh.

I just thought of something.

What would compel danakillsu to vote before he even read the thread?

Because that probably is what happened.

[Sanjay]

Vote: dankillsu

Okay, you can vote for this guy today or you can vote for him tomorrow, but unless you can think of a real good answer to the question in my last post, get this guy and then get KoC.

[Sanjay]

Well, it's nice to know I'm backing up your previous town read on me, but give me a little more credit.

I can totally fake blatant un-self-preservation as scum.

Looking to hear more from dankillsu.

[Sanjay]

Oh? How come all your scumtells were from page one?

[Sanjay]

Sorry, all your scumtell. Typo.

[Sanjay]

Request Prod On: archaebob and KoC

[Sanjay]

I think you are a bit mixed up about who DKU's most likely scumbuddy is.

[Sanjay]

^^^^

That was to Furry, of course.

[Sanjay]

Actually, BigBear, I mean to do a little pressuring other players to vote my way myself. You got a problem with that?

[Sanjay]

Why danakillsu is almost certainly scum:

I speculated that danakillsu has not read the thread prior to voting for me:

This is based on:

1) As of the vote: this was a 55 page, largely unreadable thread. havingfitz still hasn't totally caught up. It is totally unrealistic to imagine danakillsu read the thread that fast.
2) When I asked him why he thought I was scummy, the one and only reason he could came up with was from the random voting stage.
3) When his reason is scrutinized, he becomes tremendously defensive:

I think I see what's going on here. Sanjay is mafia. I call him out. He tries to get excessive amounts of explanation out of me because that's supposed to be a tell that we're both mafia. That way he thinks he can take me down with him. That's pretty sneaky.

Read the thread starting from danakillsu's entrance to the thread to that post. Did I try to get excessive amounts of explanation out of him? I think I was very open ended. Heck, my first question to him was "danakillsu, tell me more about my marvelously suspicious ways." I didn't even ask for reasons.

Ask yourself if his explanation for my motivation makes sense or looks like panicky, newb-scum OMGUSing

.

By the way, if danakillsu was voting based on some gut read and an incomplete thread read, I gave him ample opportunity to say so. And yet, when I speculate that he hasn't actually read the thread, he says that that is "totally unfounded". He has read the thread.

This is a lie. It's just not possible for him to have read the thread this quickly, and if even he had, why did it look so much like he went searching for reasons AFTER he voted, AFTER I asked him why he thought I was scummy?

I think the reason for the lie and the reason for the vote is that danakillsu is scum and is protecting scumbuddy KoC with his vote. It just makes the most sense to me.

I really don't see how any of anybody's case against me matches how good this is.

[Sanjay]

Still prefer Sanjay to any other vote. DKU is close behind, though.
Do not appreciate current mentality of town, which seems to be "If SJ is scum, KoC is bussing scum... if SJ is town, KoC is still scum." Seems like certain people have already decided they want me lynched, regardless of alignment. These people should be watched.

This is COMPLETELY in conflict with KoC's previous posts.

KoC loved an eleven lynch. Iso read the guy.

[Sanjay]

It's probably because of something scummy that's come up since KoC voted for me.

After all, why would he claim his vote for me was strictly about self-preservation if he had other reasons for his vote.

What has surfaced since that vote, KoC? Were you swayed by DKU's arguments?

[Sanjay]

Sorry, Fitz, but I'm very much committed to Sanjay at this moment. Fidelity is key

I'm touched. You rarely see that these days what with all the drive-through chapels and text-message divorces.

But there really just isn't any explanation for:

1) Why danakillsu is pretending he read the entire thread and the only thing that jumped out at him was me in the RVS.
2) Why KoC suddenly doesn't want danakillsu's lynch.

[Sanjay]

Hypothetical town Knight of Cydonia:

Right now, danakillsu is caught in an obvious lie. It is RIDICULOUSLY unlikely he read this entire thread and the only thing he noticed about anyone is me claiming something implausible during the random voting stage. It is pretty unlikely someone thinks that's a good case. And anyone with a scumdar worth a lick should be able to plainly identify flailing scum right here. I don't see how danakillsu is not scum.

You previously were very down to vote EKT and have moved from this opinion after his replacement has acted more scummy than ever. Unless you explain why, your mislynch is absolutely assured tomorrow.

If I am town, which I am, you are acting in a way that will secure two mislynches, mine and your own.

I'm not asking for you not to vote for me. You can't take me at my word that I'm town.

I'm asking you to provide ANY REASON WHATSOEVER for your recent change of heart.

[Sanjay]

Rest of the town:

Let's recall how KoC reached his delightful eleven knives vote. You can reread this portion of the thread, or follow it along with my commentary. Your choice!

Step 1: Furry declares that we should insta-bandwagon Raskol.

There's also a case against Peabody and Raskol here. It's not damning as the stuff against danakillsu, but if you are troubled that newb-town is besmirching what was previously a clear playerslot, take a read.

Step 2: I'm like, YEAH WOO BANDWAGON CHOO CHOO.

I haven't received any flak for this, but in case this bothers you, basically Furry really appealed to my sentiments when he asked to "give this game a kickstart".

Step 3: Oh, who should show up to stop us? Why, it's KoC, here to stall that wagon.

KoC's post is very strange. For a two reasons. Here they are:

1) He justifies everything Raskol did, yet still concludes he is scummy.
2) He cites "voting BigBear instead of KoC" as something scummy Raskol did.

Step 4: I press KoC over the next several posts.

I misinterpreted KoC's posts to mean "yes, there are scummy things about Raskol, but I'm not suspicious of him." I'm glad I did, because I think it encouraged KoC to take this anti-Raskol stand.

Step 5: KoC takes an anti-Raskol stand but suggests we wait for the replacement.

Oh, I wonder what answers new-Raskol will have for Raskol's play.

Step 6: EKT enters, votes KoC and doesn't answer for Raskol.

An entirely reasonable position for EKT to take. He's not a mind reader. If KoC can't explain Raskol's actions, why should EKT be able to?

Step 7: Knight of Cydonia votes EKT.

You might be thinking: Isn't this a bit early to be busing? Probably. But I think the threat of an instant-bandwagon on his scumbuddy, I think, freaked KoC. Not many people besides Furry and I posted in between Furry's proposal and KoC's vote. It would have been difficult for him to have gotten an accurate read of the situation and he probably thought the situation was more dire than it was.

[Sanjay]

For example:
-

Sanjay

- Avoided DJ wagon D1, choosing instead to prosecute Bigbear and is now, D2, learning from his mistakes and bussing KoC like hell.

- If Sanjay pops town: I'd be willing to pursue a BigBear or DeathRow lynch.

- If Sanjay flips scum: I'd be willing to pursue a Furry, Dana, or KoC lynch.

This is just all wrong.

If I am today's lynch and you don't go after DKU and KoC tomorrow, Looker, I'll be pretty disappointed in you.

[Sanjay]

Okay, you keep working the "trying to give the scumsters a glimmer of hope" angle or whatever it is you're doing.

I'll keep pointing out how they have no chance in hell.

DKU and KoC:

EVEN IF you can get me lynched today:

1) DRK will have your number.
2) Furry will have your number.
3) havingfitz will have your number.
4) BigBear seems like he'll be very interested in the case once I'm out of the way.
5) archaebob hasn't weighed in by I'm pretty sure he'll want you gone.
6) semioldguy hasn't weighed in but I'd be surprised if he doesn't like this case, if not now then when I flip.
7) Looker

might

have your back.

Game over. Town wins.

[Sanjay]

Hey, danakillsu. How's that reread coming?

It's been six hours since you last posted, you must know the thread by heart by now.

Also, if you still want to play townie, what do you make of KoC's completely unexplained change in position? Doesn't that seem odd to you?

[Sanjay]

Ha ha.

DKU's case against me is stronger than the one KoC has been letting on.

[Sanjay]

Good one.

[Sanjay]

Knight of Cydonia, more like Actively Lurking to Avoid a Fight of Cydonia. (I know you all appreciate clever wordplay, but please, hold your applause. A vote for lurkerscum will suffice.)

[Sanjay]

I think I've got you figured out, Looker.

[Sanjay]

So, power people, what are you plans for tomorrow? And by power people, I mean you power posters so concerned with the outome of Day 2.

I'm not so sure I'm concerned any more.

[Sanjay]

Well, you should be. It's part of your responsibility as an active member of this town. You haven't given up hope, have you? It's not over yet. Whose to say I won't change my vote at the last minute? Was

that

what you had figured out?

If I say yes, will you still do it?

I know you wanted to be inscrutable to everyone, but being inscrutable to everyone but me isn't bad either.

[Sanjay]

Thanks archae!

[Sanjay]

Vanilla town.

[Sanjay]

archaebob, a danakillsu wagon is more hilarious than a KoC wagon because KoC looks absolutely ridiculous not being on a danakillsu wagon.

Plus I don't think this town moves wagons that quickly.

[Sanjay]

I think there are some big problems with that theory, Furry, but I don't think now is the right time to debate them.

[Sanjay]

Furry, you don't seem as sure about who the scum are as I am.

How come?

[Sanjay]

What other explanation do you have for DKU's vote?

What other explanation do you have for KoC suddenly not being so excited about this wagon once it got real?

[Sanjay]

I think if you reread the thread, you'll find KoC was quite forced into his opinion on EKT, and that EKT probably was under the impression that he was replacing into way more pressure than he was actually under because of our little bandwagon.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy: I'm really looking forward to seeing if your read on the situation has changed.

DKU: BigBear requested you claim.

KoC: Still waiting on that explanation of what the heck you were thinking.

[Sanjay]

Hey, Looker.

I notice you're still voting for me.

Nothing's changed then, right?

Oh well, I really thought you were going to turn around but I guess I was wrong.

[Sanjay]

WHAAAAT????

Looker, I didn't even notice!

[Sanjay]

For comedy's sake at least, we should wait to hear who DKU's position investigated last night and what the result was.

I really don't see KoC's sudden change in position as anything other than a scumbuddy helping another scumbuddy out (hint: KoC, come in and explain that to us), but on the crazy off chance that DKU is town, it would be solid to have that information.

[Sanjay]

He means mafia.

[Sanjay]

DKU, did you read the thread or not? Why did you lie about that?

[Sanjay]

Oh, hey KoC.

[Sanjay]

Do you want to explain why you weren't down to vote DKU before or do you want to nightkill yourself?

[Sanjay]

Uh, what?

[Sanjay]

Have you read the thread, semioldguy?

[Sanjay]

How you are unhappy with the lynch of someone who:

1) Pretty clearly didn't read the thread.
2) Fake claimed cop.
3) As scum explains KoC's totally bizarre actions better than anything KoC has come up with.

[Sanjay]

We'll talk tomorrow.

[Sanjay]

Of course you don't. Silly me.

[Sanjay]

Vote: semioldguy

So hard.

Why is it that when everyone else was going "danakillsu is obv. scum, woo hoo" you came in, absolutely sure of his alignment, and started blaming people for the lynch?

Why was it that you didn't decide to come tell us about danakillsu's obvious innocence until AFTER the dude was lynched?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Also, I think it is time for you to stop avoiding the question and ask for you to actually back up your claims about me (like that I was doing a lot of following and that I added no content to the game). This is something that you have been QUITE reluctant to do.

[Sanjay]

What is that, the twentieth time you've dodged my request to back up your case against me?

Should we celebrate?

Why weren't you keeping up with the thread? Was a deadline 5-5 split with one of the vote getters being your chief suspect not exciting enough for you?

[Sanjay]

Also, your reasons stink.

How come you think not voting for a soft-claimer is scummy, but fake claiming isn't?

It seems like you are being very selective about which anti-town actions are scummy to you.

[Sanjay]

Give me a break, semioldguy. I did look for motivations as for why danakillsu's actions were anti-town. I absolutely did.

KoC turned out town, but without you knowing that KoC was town, I don't see why my explanation for danakillsu's actions weren't at least plausible. But no, here comes semioldguy, before danakillsu flipped, before KoC flipped, immediately trying to cast blame on people for the wagon.

And as for your "why didn't you press me during twilight" accusation:

1) If you happen to be town, attacking you during twilight decreases the possibility that you are nightkilled.
2) The chance of me being nightkilled after spending all day at L-1 seemed pretty slim to me.
3) With you coming in acting absolutely sure that danakillsu was town, it seemed pretty likely that you wouldn't be nightkilled either.

It was enough to me to get you to admit that you read the thread so you couldn't pull some shenanigans today.

Explain why you were sure danakillsu's motivations were coming from a pro-town perspective.

[Sanjay]

Why weren't you keeping up with the thread? Was a deadline 5-5 split with one of the vote getters being your chief suspect not exciting enough for you?

I was very busy and had another game that required more attention, which is now over.

You mean three other games, right?

[Sanjay]

Why weren't you keeping up with the thread? Was a deadline 5-5 split with one of the vote getters being your chief suspect not exciting enough for you?

I was very busy and had another game that required more attention, which is now over.

You mean three other games, right?

Sorry, I misread. Just two other games.

MY BAD.

[Sanjay]

We should.

[Sanjay]

For what reasons, Sanjay, other than your own preservation?

This is a big question, Looker.

[Sanjay]

It requires a big answer.

Hold your horses.

[Sanjay]

A bullshit case on DKU?

You seemed pretty interested in it yesterday.

[Sanjay]

I know you did, Looker, and I'm sorry it didn't work out. If it makes you feel any better, you are very likely going to get your wish today.

semioldguy is likely scum because:

1) Him busting in yesterday after the lynch trying to cast blame on everyone seemed to imply to me he had foreknowledge of danakillsu's alignment. As far as I could tell, semioldguy was the only one who wasn't interested in the DKU case (Well, neither was KoC, but that's understandable).
2) He thinks I am scummy for not wanting to vote for DJ because I thought he was a townie playing anti-town and yet is totally comfortable assuming DKU was a townie being anti-town. I don't understand the inconsistency.
3) His ducking out when I asked him what he thought of DKU's reasons for lynching me and popping back in after the lynch was ridiculous and he had plenty of time to stop in here at some point.
4) His reasons for not wanting to explain his reasons for voting me baffle me, and have not been consistent. This new "I'm not going to explain myself until someone else seems interested in the reasons" thing is entirely brand new and wasn't there yesterday.
5) This somewhat repeats some of my previous points, but I don't understand where semioldguy's reads are coming from. He's the only one who wasn't at least interested in the DKU case. He had a gut scum read on me

before

he even read the end of day 1, something that really doesn't happen very much, regardless of my alignment.

[Sanjay]

archaebob, you didn't really strike me as a very gut driven player and I don't seem to remember you expressing a strong town read on me yesterday.

Tell me about that.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, you are coming at me with some really dubious theory.

Twilight is a terrible time to scumhunt. What pressure was I supposed to exert on you in twilight? Fear of a lynch? You lurk away from questions in the middle of the damn day, you could easily do it in twilight if the question looked too hard.

If you are scum, would you rather I fully explain exactly what I am going to come after you with before the night starts so you can talk about it overnight? That's silly.

Also, this:

No, I meant one. That's what I wrote and that's what I meant. I am playing in three total games (now down to two), but didn't contribute to any but one in the whole two day absence in this game.

is straight-up false. You know we can look at the posts you made in that time period, right?

[Sanjay]

danakillsu and his predecessors felt very town. The way the wagon had built up did not feel town at all. I also don't think it likely for a scum counter-wagon would have generated that quickly so close to deadline. I am certain that wagon was backed by scum.

Why? Which players, do you feel, acted inconsistently?

Also, surely you've seen a hastily created deadline wagon hit scum before, haven't you? I don't understand how the fact that the wagon formed quickly gave you this much certainty.

I agree that Raskol mostly felt town and that Knives felt town. I'll give you that.

Because you look at events and not motivations or context. Or you do look at motivations and context but don't understand them from a town's perspective because you are not town. This has been explained. It has been noted that you continue to ignore the explanation and have yet to even attempt refuting the point, just merely repeating yourself will not make it true.

This doesn't make any sense even as an accusation. I don't understand town motivations because I'm not town? What? By all means flesh this one out because it should be a laugh riot.

What point would you like me to refute? That I tried to start a wagon to drive votes away from DJ day one? You got me. I did. I also explained my motivations behind doing that. What do you have a problem with exactly?

The wagon went from zero to lynch in two days. Two days in which I had not opened the thread. When was this plenty of time exactly?

When two days equaled 48 hours, I think.

I have explained my reasons. Just because you keep asking for them doesn't mean I haven't posted them. I have, and you can still feel free to go back and look at them. I don't need to drag up additional reasons when the existing ones are enough. It's like saying to me "keep bringing up points against me until you get to the weak ones and ones I can easily swat away." You haven't come up with reasonable pro-town explanations for doing what you've done in my existing accusations.

Well then DUH DUH DUH talk about what is unreasonable about my pro-town explanations. How are they unsatisfactory?

Why didn't you bring this up when I asked you about it earlier?

Here is where I ask
Here is where you answer

Are you saying that if you don't know where someone's reads are coming from that it makes that person scummy? If not, then this isn't a valid point.

If the person refuses to explain the reads, yes.

[Sanjay]

I'm going to drop the "you participating in other games" argument if we need to discuss ongoing games to do it.

I really don't understand why this game didn't deserve at least a cursory glance on the two days before deadline as it seems like you are claiming. If you aren't scum you are a surprisingly disinterested townie.

By the way, what was my scummy motivation for not scumhunting in twilight, semioldguy?

You who seem to care so much about motivation haven't really fleshed that one out.

[Sanjay]

My read on Furry is townish but it isn't my strongest town read. That's probably DRK and then you.

I don't understand exactly why if he thought Raskol and Knives and DKU were scum KoC being scum wasn't super obvious to him, so I am a little wary.

[Sanjay]

RE: Twilight as a terrible time to scumhunt...

I thought the point of the matter was ensuring a future scumhunt. If not now, then when. How did you ensure that you would be around today? I thought that was the inquiry; however, if not, I can honestly see twilight as a bad time to throw out newfound accusations and for the reason stated - Scum QT Talk.

Even if both scum were on my wagon, I had three townies voting for me yesterday. I find it pretty unlikely that I would be nightkilled, especially after I claimed.

Besides, if I had been nightkilled, I doubt semioldguy would have gone without scrutiny today.

[Sanjay]

Right here

[Sanjay]

Probably not.

So is not scumhunting ideally a scumtell now, semioldguy?

Whether I am town looking for a lynch or scum looking for a mislynch, I don't see your point here. Either way, I might have been better pressing and catching you off balance.

What's your case?

[Sanjay]

Oh, I don't want to answer that one.

[Sanjay]

Read the rules, Furry.

[Sanjay]

What don't you like about the push against semioldguy?

[Sanjay]

No, I said my role was vanilla townie.

[Sanjay]

Furry, why are you not being more careful about rule 4?

[Sanjay]

I do insist.

[Sanjay]

Because it has been requested....

Sample PM

You are a resident of Falls Church. No way will you allow some gang bangers from the Left Coast to invade your peaceful, law abiding town!

You have no powers other than your voice, your vote, and your keen sense of justice. Good luck cleaning up your town!

Confirm in thread here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12433
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess I should have been more specific in the PMs, but standard win conditions apply, i.e. you win with your faction whether alive or dead.

This is why I didn't claim role name yesterday and why I was reluctant to claim win condition today. It would auto-confirm me to anyone who had the vanilla PM if I said "Um, I'm not sure what the win condition is, it doesn't really say".

This isn't a theme game.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, I answered your initial accusations within the first few pages of you making them and you haven't commented on why the answers weren't sufficient.

What am I deflecting?

[Sanjay]

Because that would be cheating, semioldguy.

[Sanjay]

Using the role PM to my advantage.

[Sanjay]

That's not the kind of shenanigans that should be going on in a normal game, semioldguy.

[Sanjay]

I think the fact that a win condition was omitted and the ambiguousness of the rolename count as structure.

semioldguy, the kinds of things Furry asked me to claim would be game breaking.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy's case against me as I understand it + the places I have answered him.

semioldguy's reason: Mediating between DRK and CA looked like scum trying to keep a fight going (Post 1173).

My response: Given both CA's seeming unreasonableness and DRK's defensiveness, it was difficult to take a strong stance (Post 1178).

semioldguy's reason: I did a lot of fencesitting on the DRK vs. CA fight when it was rehashed. (Post 1173).

My response: I might not have responded to this one actually. I really don't see where this happened. semioldguy, help me out?

semioldguy's reason: I do a lot of parroting and following this game. (Post 1173).

My response: I just don't see this. I have told semioldguy as much in (Post 1331).

semioldguy's reason: Not wanting to lynch the soft claim and not wanting to lynch the full claim was ridiculous (Post 1173).

My response: I explain what I was thinking right after (Post 1175).

semioldguy's reason: Early scum read (Post 1182).

My response: Not much to respond to this, but I must say it piqued my curiosity (Post 1183).

semioldguy's reason: I don't bring a lot of original content to the thread and just ask a lot of questions with no follow up. Seems like scum faking content.

My response: I ask where he is seeing this (Post 1272. When he doesn't answer, I ask in a much stronger fashion (Post 1331).

Also, if I might add something else, this is definitely not something I do or would do as scum. In this town on day one it would have been so damn easy. Maybe I'm just messing with my meta so I can use this defense or something, but the big question would be: why?

And then there's some stuff about not scumhunting during twilight which I really don't quite get either. semioldguy, explain how this is scummy. PLEASE.

WHAT THE HELL AM I DEFLECTING?

[Sanjay]

What am I deflecting currently?

[Sanjay]

Who do you think asked for the vanilla pm to be posted, Looker?

[Sanjay]

In all honesty, I'm guessing you; however, are you aiming to use this fact as evidence of your towniness? That, within itself, comes off as a worthy scum tactic, similar, in grade, to bussing. Do you agree?

No, it's not evidence of my towniness. I'm just saying that your accusation of this being a "half-ass attempt to manipulate recent events" is off.

[Sanjay]

Crap, which makes sense. Why would you want to give the PM to scum? Why would you want to show it to people who already had it?

Sanjay: Why didn't you just do what I did and crumb if you're town? What was the initial intention of all this?

Because finding scum based on them not having the vanilla PM is bogus and should not be in a normal game. Confirming town based on them having the vanilla PM is bogus too.

I don't understand the second question, Looker.

[Sanjay]

Because I needed to have the vanilla PM be common knowledge to talk about it.

Otherwise I couldn't explain why I didn't want to answer Furry's question.

[Sanjay]

Are you saying that if you don't know where someone's reads are coming from that it makes that person scummy? If not, then this isn't a valid point.

If the person refuses to explain the reads, yes.

I'd like to inform you that you are wrong. It is not always pro-town to come forward with everything. For instance, if I have a very effective read to catch scum or tells on a certain player then I can continue to use it to catch scum. But if I share those read with the scum or that player, then they become aware of it making that read/tell much less useful. Other times it's helpful to build a wagon without giving reasons to get information about who hops on the wagon and how the wagon forms. Not giving reads could help to hide one's role as a cop so that they are not outed. I could go on if I need to. There are many pro-town reasons not to explain reads.

Fortunately for you, being wrong isn't a scum tell. Unfortunately for you, there are plenty of other things you are doing that are.

This is not what is happening.

I am asking you to explain the scumtells YOU HAVE ALREADY CLAIMED.

How is it pro-town for you to say you see these scumtells and when I ask you where for you to entirely ignore my request?

[Sanjay]

Why do you think I clarified that vanilla town was the role I was claiming and not the role name, Furry?

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, PLEASE stop dodging my questions.

[Sanjay]

I'm not hearing that. I'm glad and am more than appreciative you brought it up, but I'm not hearing that. I believe Sanjay is opportunistic enough as it is and it'd be inopportune for us to conjure up excuses for him. He will say what he will say but let's not be the ones to give him something to say. He's smart, he'll figure something out; he'll figure some kind of way to deflect all of your votes.

DRK didn't make up anything.

Me playing to my values or whatever is the explanation I already gave.

[Sanjay]

As far as I recall, the only claim before mine was DJs.

[Sanjay]

Here and here

[Sanjay]

Here and here

Also, I said one of your explanations was insufficient: here.

[Sanjay]

As far as I recall, the only claim before mine was DJs.

And DKU?

I thought he claimed after?

[Sanjay]

Furry

: Why is it yesterday you thought my vanilla town claim made me townier than a bag of chips but you just remembered today that the PM said resident?

[Sanjay]

Given the nature of the vanilla townie role PM, I didn't think claiming resident was appropriate.

[Sanjay]

All I'm reading is blah blah blah blah blah.

You aren't pressure voting me. You don't have a guilty on me. You aren't trying to hide your secret scumtells because you've already said

what

you thought was scummy. You just haven't shown me

where

. I legitimately don't understand why from a town perspective you are being so reluctant to elaborate on your reasons for voting for me.

You have said I parroted a lot. You said I asked a lot of questions without any real follow-up. I challenged you to show me where I was parroting and to ask me to explain the questions you thought were just noise. Why not?

Your challenge that I haven't been considering people's motivations is both irrelevant and wrong. It is irrelevant because town or scum, I do a pretty good job of figuring out where people are coming from, and actually, it is probably easier if I already know their alignment. It is wrong because I have been considering players motivations for doing things. I didn't vote danakillsu because he voted for me for stupid reasons and I didn't think he read the thread. I voted danakillsu because I thought that from a scum perspective he had more reason to vote for me for stupid reasons and not read the thread. I didn't vote DJ because though his actions were anti-town I just thought he was a bad player.

The reason I asked you which players you felt acted inconsistently is because I think it is very relevant to whether merely being on the DKU wagon is scummy. Several players expressed that they would rather not have me lynched, and I think it would be weirder if I had gotten lynched yesterday.

But here you come in and act like people are scummy for being on a quick wagon. Who isn't considering motivations now?

I think you knew danakillsu was town and I don't think you had sufficient reason to. My theory about DKU and KoC was good, even if it was wrong, and you went out of your way, before nighttime, to declare how scummy everyone on the wagon was.

What's the strategy behind doing that anyway? Why would a townie, during twilight, come in and say "everyone but me is scummy"? Wouldn't that make it less likely scum would nightkill from the DKU wagon? That's bad play from town.

As far as me defending myself goes, please be specific as to what explanations I have given aren't sufficient, believable, or what scum motivations you think are more likely. If you are town, there is a fair bit of you misunderstanding me. Let's end that.

As far as why I think you are scum, here are some points.

PLEASE RESPOND

I think the reason you came up with a whole bunch of other reasons for voting me besides my DJ vote was because you didn't want to appear like you were just bandwagoning off other people's reasons and like you were doing your own scumhunting. That is why I am suspicious of you for not fleshing out

your

reasons for voting me.

Declaring "this whole wagon is scummy" and "this wagon is scum driven" is scummy. At the very most, there were only two scum lynching DKU. Most of the people on the wagon were town. You are trying to make more people look scummy than you can justify. That wagon was majority town. I think scum are more likely to declare everyone scummy like that.

You not only defended DKU's innocence, but you defended the idea that DKU read the thread. Even with DKU flipping town, I still think that's a little ambiguous. I think you would be more inclined to believe DKU had read the thread if you knew DKU's alignment than if there was doubt. There was very good evidence to believe DKU hadn't read the thread. It was more than just the time from him replacing in to him voting.

[Sanjay]

Furry: Why is it yesterday you thought my vanilla town claim made me townier than a bag of chips but you just remembered today that the PM said resident?

Missed this, Mr. Feline.

[Sanjay]

BigBear, stop being a terrible scumhunter.

[Sanjay]

Miss you, archaebob.

[Sanjay]

Why do you think I clarified that vanilla town was the role I was claiming and not the role name, Furry?

Because you dont go around claiming "hey I work with other guys and go around trying to find who has been killing people" instead of saying "im a cop who talks with other cops".

If you are VT that is slightly different, you claim what it really is. This is just looking like an unfortunate scenario where mod messed up and it turned an uphill fight into a lost cause.

And im the only feline here I think

You don't quite get what I'm getting at. When you asked me "didn't you already claim vanilla townie as your role name" I was clear on the fact that I was claiming the role vanilla townie and not the role name vanilla townie in my answer.

Whether I was scum or town, I definitely knew about the vanilla town flavor before the role PM was posted.

Whether I had worked that out from danakillsu or I had worked that out from my actual role PM, that's up to you to decide.

But given you said previously that the only scummy thing you've noticed about me is this business, I don't really understand your vote on me.

[Sanjay]

Yeah, that plan is terrible, Look.

Since I had my breakthrough and you no longer became a mystery to me, I've lost my interest in voting you. I didn't need that hint to know you are probably town. We don't really have a mislynch we can afford to throw away on someone that is unreadable anymore anyway. If we did, I'd be voting archaebob.

[Sanjay]

Then you haven't been reading the thread, Furry.

The fact that claiming resident would have practically confirmed me is exactly why I didn't claim resident. If not just for rule 4 reasons, but for general principles of the game reason. The game would seriously be ruined if I had autoconfirmed myself like that.

You missed that explanation? You don't like it? What?

[Sanjay]

What?

You just said that claiming resident would nearly confirm me.

How is that not a cheap move?

[Sanjay]

You left in the middle of a conversation, Furry.

I'd like to complete it.

[Sanjay]

You left in the middle of a conversation, Furry.

I'd like to complete it.

kay

What?

You just said that claiming resident would nearly confirm me.

How is that not a cheap move?

Resident is a role name. Not claiming resident as one is effectively lying about your role. Im actually shocked you didnt get countered, or at least pressured by someone over this.

'Nearly confirm' may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not claiming your role name is not playing to your win condition as far as im concerned. Playing to your win condition while being nowhere near breaking a rule isnt cheap.

Bullshit.

Look at that role pm.

Before danakillsu flipped I wasn't even sure if resident was a bit of flavor or my actual rolename. But I knew that if I claimed resident I would be taking advantage of having the vanilla role PM, which is absolutely 100% shenanigans. It ruins a game.

Anyway, danakillsu claimed vanilla town too. You are undergoing a whole lot of cognitive dissonance to make this work, Furry.

[Sanjay]

@Sanjay - I have no clue what 'conginative dissonance' means. Not a big word person. What would you of done if DKU claimed resident?

I mean you are believing contradictory things. DKU claimed vanilla town, and yet you are acting like claiming vanilla town in this situation is something town wouldn't do. I know that the fact that one town player does something isn't proof that it isn't a scumtell, but I really don't understand why this tell is so convincing to you given the circumstances.

If DKU had claimed resident, I would be more inclined to believe him. I suppose the mafia might have been given fake claims so it wouldn't autoconfirm him, but him claiming resident would definitely have made him more townish than anything else he said.

If he didn't get lynched because of it and that pissed off the mafia, when the mafia complained about it in endgame I would agree with them strongly.

[Sanjay]

I agree with that.

I got really bad vibes from SOG's twilight talk, but I can't guarantee he's scum and it doesn't seem like I'll be getting him lynched anyway. And if I do get him lynched by some miracle and I'm wrong, it's pretty bad news tomorrow.

Looker is going to be so happy.

I think waiting for the archaebob replacement if possible would be stellar though, and so would waiting for SOG to respond to my case on him. After that, I would like other people to comment on my case on him.

That is, of course, if we hear from him before twilight.

[Sanjay]

Looker, the deadline is the 23rd.

You'll have my lynch in time for Christmas no matter what we do.

[Sanjay]

I really don't see why SOG is uninterested in this game. His top suspect is posting buttloads of material to analyze. It's a scumhunter's dream come true.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, probably.

[Sanjay]

What? No, that is the exact opposite of what I said.

I would vote X.

But I think claiming resident in that situation would be wrong. I'm sure people might do it, but it ought not to be done.

[Sanjay]

Once semioldguy responds to it, Furry, I'd really like to hear your take on my case against him.

[Sanjay]

I have some heeby jeebies about archaebob in this game because he was relatively mellow and unaggressive, which is more in keeping with his scum game, though that could be explained by the inaccessibility of this thread so it is by no means conclusive.

EtherealCookie, archaebob's former identity, was a distant memory. I guess the whole playerslot is due for a reread.

I suppose from a policy lynch standpoint it's a good lynch, but it's not really policy lynch time what with us only having one mislynch left. Plus I think from an objective standpoint, with two votes on me guaranteed town, I'm probably a better policy lynch.

[Sanjay]

I'm not enthusiastic about the lynch of someone I really have nothing on but some meta info when I have what I feel like is a good case on someone else, especially when it is our last mislynch.

[Sanjay]

Merry Christmas, Looker.

[Sanjay]

There were some things I wanted to see happen before I got lynched that I didn't get to see happen, but that's okay.

BigBear and semioldguy will have to get off their asses tomorrow.

A little interested in the timing of Furry suddenly being interested in other lynches out of nowhere. Can't help but think it might have something to do with my answer to this?

[Sanjay]

Well, I'd lie about it if I was mafia just to frustrate your scumhunting a little, but if you can trust me, yes, I was town.

A reminder to Looker:

I know you really dig wagon analysis and figuring out who is scum by figuring out who is supporting who, but just remember after I flip that the day 2 competing wagons were town vs. town, and you shouldn't give people too much town credit just because they defended a town player.

[Sanjay]

There are a few specifics I'm not really getting at here either, but there was something I was really interested in seeing if semioldguy would do today that if he doesn't do tomorrow you should ask him about it.

[Sanjay]

Ha ha, good job, guys.

DJ, way to make the thread so unreadable that the town basically gave up.

[Sanjay]

Looker, don't worry about being wrong. I was wrong too. Wrong about DRK, wrong about semioldguy and wrong about DJ.

You were a blast to play with and I'd definitely love to play with you again.

Furry and DRK, you guys were pretty fun to play with too.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, why didn't you ever get on Furry for his softclaim? That was a big thing for you, wasn't it?

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, I waited all game for you to post.

[Sanjay]

It happens.

I'm sorry I tunneled against you and got Looker looking your way.