Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[TeWuicah]

Being the second to last person to post, I think it's clear I am not a morning person.

Just btw, I can kinda be a morning person, can't sleep past 9 or so if im tired and go to bed late, usually up between 7 to 8 otherwise :p

Claiming to be a morning person already? Obvscum!

Vote: smashbro_of_the_SSS

[TeWuicah]

First of all, I apologize for not posting since page 1. Been really busy lately, I'll try to make it up before the day is over.

About fallen's gambit: Seems to me this was doomed to fail from the start. First of all, saying it's a gambit is a sure-fire way to make everyone tread carefully. Second of all, the whole reasoning behind the gambit is flawed and almost completely WIFOM:

Hmm.

Unvote Deer

. The idea behind putting Deer at (originally, before the unvote) was to catch everyone off guard. If someone jumped off the second I put deer so close to a lynch, I'd lean towards them being town. If anybody simply ignored it and pretended that there wasn't about to be a player lynched D1, I'd assume they're scum or at least not pro-town. If anyone actually quicklynched, obvscum. It didn't work for a few reasons, unfortunately, although I am pretty convinced of rzhang's scumminess. I'll do a full reread when I have time.

A scum could have easily wanted to leave that bandwagon, to get some townie cred. And a townie could have easily stayed on it, because it was only at L-2 and nobody would hammer him in anyway, and it was a pretty much random bandwagon to begin with.

Moving on to more recent posts...

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role.

You were trying to accelerate discussion. I get that. But you were going about it in a pretty dangerous and irrational way. Instead of intentionally casting suspicion on yourself, you could have made an attempt at RQS which would most likely have had a similar effect, only you would not look incredibly scummy.

Point is, it's not a good idea to make a random crazy move to get discussion going. It may get some discussion, but it will ultimately just complicate things for everyone.

i really am itching to elaborate on this, but i really feel it is inappropriate because that game is still in progress. all i will say is that i disagree, it is not always right to lynch all liars. some scum are smart, and to find them you must deceive them, and in some circumstances deceiving them also means deceiving everyone else until after the scum has fallen for the trap and things can be cleared up.

You are right in that theoretically there may be a chance for a townie to fakeclaim and win the game, but such chances are very rare and must be considered carefully. Not at all like your earlier example, you can't just fakeclaim when you're about to be lynched in order to save yourself, as the benefit of you living is not worth the risk of the real power role having to counterclaim. Regardless, I also agree with the policy of lynching all liars.

P.S. Can you please make an effort to capitalize? I can't believe I'm the only one getting a headache trying to read your posts.

[TeWuicah]

Yes, I am attempting to shed light on certain things but still mask certain other things. Again, this is not necessarily scummy. It is just not my style to play completely transparently or truthfully, it is boring and uncreative. This game is about manipulation of information.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Yes, on some roles and especially scum, you are going to have to lie and manipulate, but I don't think it's to town's advantage to needlessly complicate the game. For town, that is most players, I think gaining trust is far more important than trying to manipulate people.

Nothing I've seen so far suggests strongly to me that you have scum interests in mind though, so I'm going to let you do your thing and see what, if any, results you get. At the very least you should make this game interesting.

Water_Foul (4) - 55% Because honestly I have been lurking some, sorry i will try to be more active

Am I the only one irked by this? The only time I've seen someone evaluate themselves they turned out to be scum. I see no reason why town would ever need to evaluate themselves.

I just completed a game where one of the scum had done a comprehensive player assessment in which he included himself. Don't recall if he rated himself slightly scummy or not.

Would both/either one of you explain why this would be a scum tell, other than a few anecdotal examples? I agree that it's a strange and perhaps dumb thing to do, but I don't see why that would make you guys think he's scum.

[TeWuicah]

Also, who's your top at the moment te?

Can't say I have a particularly strong suspect, but due to his recent posts I'm quite happy with my vote on SSSS. This post especially:

*sigh* I meant you're actions did nothing to help my plan. It honestly hurt it, seeing as all attention was drawn towards you afterwards, so nothing was gained.

I get that. But you're saying that you're neutral. If you are town, instead of focusing on that, try and redeem yourself instead of saying "Well, I can't prove it to you." You aren't getting lynched within the next real-life day or more, (at least, not if the town has *any* commons sense), so get out of the hole you dug. I meant giving up on anything useful. All you're doing is saying "I'm not scum but I can't prove it. Oh, and I did everything useful with FA's gambit."

Nope. I'm just trying to figure out how you think you're helping in the least bit.

I mainly didn't like the top paragraph, since I'm getting the faint smell of him saying "well, it was a good plan for us as scum, but unfortunately it got screwed up." This

As to why I unvoted, I didn't have any good reason to vote Deer, as I had no suspicions on him, but I did not consider the gambit taking place.

so, I will

vote: rzhang86

for the same reasons as the others, and the fact that he seems to be acting like he controls the game already, something scum practically are, since they know everyone else is town.

HE IS AT L-1 DO NOT VOTE AGAINST HIM YET

For starters, saying you vote for him "for the same reasons as the others" is very noncommittal, and as far as I can tell people did have different reasons for voting.

As for him acting like he controls the game, it seems more like his playstyle to me than actual control. Given that everyone finds him various shades of suspicious, he doesn't have nearly as much sway over people as your post suggests.

Also, what makes you think scum know everyone else is town? This is still a closed setup. You claim rzhang has more information, but it seems to me it is you who has more information.

Your final sentence is also pre-emptively covering your ass. You're okay with putting him at L-1 for a pretty flimsy reason, but should someone hammer him, you're already distancing yourself from your vote? Does not compute.

[TeWuicah]

I'm saying that I vote for the same reasons as the others, because I agree with the other reasons given, i just don't want to write them down again.

But you should write those reasons down or at least quote some kind of justification for your vote. Otherwise, if pressed later on, how are we to know exactly why you voted for him? Remember that it happened in this case too: You were asked why you thought rz had more knowledge, and you were unable to find anything that supported your claim. Don't make vague statements like that, you will only be asked to clarify.

Other than that, I'm getting town vibes from your reply. I was more curious as to how you would respond when pressured than honestly suspicious, anyway. Hey, so long as everyone else is pulling off gambits. I see no point in having my vote on you anymore, so...

Unvote

@all.....do you think rz asking for replacement is frustrated town or cornered scum? (I realize there may be other reasons besides these two [ex. RL issues] but between the two choices I provided...which do you think is more likely?)

Honestly both explanations make some sense, but despite my earlier thoughts on him it does make me lean more towards scum. I wouldn't want to use replacement as evidence of anything but him asking for replacement is in sharp contrast of his earlier confident play, which makes me think it was just desperation play.

FA getting replaced soon after could also hint that they are scumbuddies, who want out because their misdirection play backfired. There's no strong reason to think so right now but should either one of them flip scum it's something to consider.

[TeWuicah]

right now, rz is not my top suspect anymore, but I'm still going to keep an eye on his slot. I have a couple other suspicions, but I'll keep most of them to myself for now, since I dont want scum to be able to clean up their act if they see suspicion on them.

I understand where you're coming from on this, but I always have found this argument to be bogus. Townies need to scumhunt and show their suspicions - keeping them to yourself helps nobody.

I agree that if you have something you want to point out in someone's post, you should go ahead and do it, but if it's nothing specific and mostly just a gut feeling, then I guess it would be alright to keep it hidden for now, if you think it could be beneficial. But be sure to come out with it reasonably soon, while you still can.

For the people who aren't voting....do you have a primary suspect? Are you engaged with the game?

In light of recent posts, I'd say waterfoul. But I'm very perturbed by how long fallen angel and especially rzhang have been essentially out of the game because of the replacement trouble and am not ready to vote for anyone until I hear more from their replacements.

water_foul:

In more than half of your posts, you mention your own inactivity/lurking (!!). You keep apologizing and apologizing, and even claim that we shouldn't see your lurking as lurking. Why are you being so overly defensive about something no one has pressured you on? If you are so nervous about being accused of lurking, why don't you post something relevant? Or are you just trying to hide?

[TeWuicah]

TeWuicah, do you find lurking a scumtell?

Not necessarily. I think it depends more on the circumstances. Which are, in water_foul's case, highly suspect. The simplest, and therefore the most likely to be correct reason for him to be lurking and then being nervous about lurking is that he has something to hide.

[TeWuicah]

Also,

mod

: Pretty sure Nobody Special needs a prod.

[TeWuicah]

Vote: Nobody Special

. Lead by example! People need to start voting instead of being so noncommittal.

Agreed. I was hoping for quicker replacements, but doesn't seem to be happening.

Vote: water_foul

See my last two posts for reasons. You haven't answered any of my questions. Lurk much? Speaking of which:

mod:

water_foul needs a prod. Also, in your vote count Sucrose is voting for two different people.

Syke: My bad! I update votecounts from file. My mistake.

[TeWuicah]

Does anyone else think rz replacing out (or FA for that matter) compounds suspicions that were already on them?

I already answered this, but I'll elaborate on it since no one else seems to have any questions. I found rz's play unconventional and interesting, but I hadn't yet decided whether it was scummy or not. So kind of yes, with the information that he would decide to request replacement, it looks a lot scummier.

If you suspected rz before he bailed...are you willing give rz's replacement a clean slate? For me the answer is no....whic h is why my vote is still on him.

Obviously not a clean slate, but I would very much like to hear what he has to say.

So. I have a proposition. You guys should all join the smash wagon. Why? Because wagons are good. Wagons make stuff happen. Do it. You know you wanna.

Sounds like fun!

Unvote, Vote: smashbro_of_the_SSS

[TeWuicah]

Why are you willing to bandwagon someone you find town?

Because I also dislike when people come from a long hiatus only to post that they have nothing to post about. What's more this game seems pretty devoid of life and I came here expecting to have to make an attempt at RQS to get some discussion going. But when I saw your proposition, I figured that jumping on that bandwagon would serve the same purpose, so I suppose I got lazy there.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with him having four votes now though, especially given that his most recent post mimics my thoughts on jbernier3* and also because I may not be able to check this thread in the next 24 hours or so, so I'll

Unvote

.

*I don't find him my prime suspect, but I've noted his relatively low content posting and opportunistic vote jumping all over the place. Might be his playstyle, but it strikes me as odd.

[TeWuicah]

He's only at L2 and you're uncomfortable? Isn't the point of voting him to pressure him to talk more? How is that achieved if you so easily back off the wagon?

Yes, because several things(deadline looming, jbernier going after him hard and activity spiking) made me think that a lynch on SSSS was not impossible in a pretty short timeframe. My vote on SSSS was not a seriousvote, it was more of an attempt to probe the game as it was dead quiet. So I didn't want a lynch on him before I had a better chance to look over the game again and see if there's a better candidate for a lynch.

- Te has generally followed where the votes are going all game and has not initiated any bandwagons. Possible parroting and attempt to blend in background..

*shrug* I thought I had a decent case against water_foul before he got replaced. Is it my fault no one jumped on that bandwagon?

OH DEAR GOD TEXT

Good stuff. After reading this and a reread of the game I could get behind a SSSS lynch, but Nobody Special is just too quiet. He's posting just enough to avoid a prod and most of it has no content. Surely there's something to post about now that the replacements are in?

Vote: Nobody Special

@mod:

Your votecount still has rzhang although he's been replaced. Could we have an exact time on the deadline?

11:59 PM MST Sunday and that was mostly due to people giving me votes for him after he left, fixed.

[TeWuicah]

To be fair, he's being really quiet in all his games as of late.

As of late meaning what, exactly? I mean, he posted in this game just yesterday, yet added nothing relevant.

[TeWuicah]

In all games I'm in with him, his recent posts have been infrequent / relatively low content.

So your argument is that his inactivity doesn't count as proof of his alignment? Fair enough. I still think it's anti-town, and if he can't put in any content at all then he's better off replacing out.

Also, so it's clear:

SMASH IS L-1 RIGHT NOW

Who's the fifth person voting for him? Vote count says he's got four votes and it takes 6 to lynch.

[TeWuicah]

Look again. Vote count has Sucrose voting for SSSS.

[TeWuicah]

Can't really blame you on that one. Mod's comment there has made things pretty confusing.

I don't see any other errors in vote count that haven't been pointed out already, so it seems like Dragonfly and SSSS are at L-2, and Nobody Special at L-3.