Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Sotty7]

I'm catching up in chunks here. Hoping to be caught up by tomorrow.

[Sotty7]

Ack. We got caught in some crazy storms here yesterday so I'm not caught up yet. Deadline is coming up, any chance of an

extension mod?

[Sotty7]

Okay, my weekend was a lot busier/stormier than expected, sorry about that. Anyway, I have read all the game now but it has turned my brain into mush. I'm hoping working though the player list with some ISO's gets me on track.

I think a lot of it all has to do with just how long the game as a whole spent on Tasky's questions and if they were rolefishing or scummy or whatever. It really was so over discussed at times it gave the scum a lot of good places to hide. It certainly bogged down the thread a lot and I was surprised with how quickly the Tasky wagon just evaporated into nothingness as soon as one person spoke up about it.

So naturally, with the quick abandonment of this wagon I became interested in it and decided to look closer. At the peak of the Tasky wagon we had four people voting for him. vezokpiraka, Oso, diddin, Super Smash Bros. Fan. Oso, in my mind had the real case on Tasky, he spots the contradiction and attacks it. Tasky however doesn't strike me as scum from the whole RVQ deal, just the tone of his posts and how he questions and follows up on everyone. It feels like true scum hunting to me. Oso comes to agree with this and unvotes Tasky because he starts to think that this is just how Tasky plays and isn't him trying to set a trap.

Then we get a knock on effect of vezo and diddin unvoting in pretty quick succession. Vezo's unvote is the scummiest to me. Just quotes Oso's reasoning and unvotes because he agrees. No added thoughts or analysis provided and to me looks like newb scum bailing on a wagon before attention is directed his way.

My feelings surrounding Vezo are further justified when you look at his contributions to the game. His first post and initial vote for Tasky is based of a lie:

I'll answer 6 only.
Usually people who want to end RVS by not saying "End the RVS" are scum.
Asking subtle question to end RVS = scum in my experience.

vote Tasky

When in all actuality Tasky had said he was making these questions to get out of RVS quickly, exactly what vezo was accusing Tasky of NOT doing.

now... since I'd actually like to get out of the RVS fast, I'll ask some questions for you to answer...

Note vezo posted his accusation right under the post where Tasky says this. Vezo does late back away slightly from his statement, claiming joke. I'm not buying it.

So you're giving tasky the noob pass but you're voting for me because of sheepping?
You sure you're not scum with Tasky?

After vezo unvotes, Friend is right there and votes him and I agree with how he said vezo was sheeping. vezo counters with this post which is striking to me because he had

just

unvoted Tasky himself basically because of the newb card Oso presented.

Based on the way Tasky has posted so far, if his questions are some sort of scum gambit, I am not seeing it.

This accusation and vezo's unvote don't add up or even work together at all. He is angry at Friend for doing something he himself is doing. Seems redundant and suggests that vezo had no idea why Oso unvoted Tasky in the first place, despite posting that he agreed and followed him.

The whole “ninja'ed” thing is null though. When I post and it pops up some else already posted I will often just post anyway and read the comment after. I mean it really doesn't matter. The 6 minute thing is also extremely weak and I was very suspicious of KageLord for pushing that. He does redeem himself as the game goes on how ever.

Wagon analysis.
We have tasky and friend. One who got a wagon formed on him at the beginning and one who defended him. KageLord - the one who is pushing a wagon on me for out of game reasons. We may have all the three(?) scums here.

I will

Vote KageLord

I really don't like his last few posts. He comes as incredibly scummy to me.

Vezo then OMGUS votes KageLord, which wouldn't be so bad if he had bothered to actually talk about what happened. Just “I don't like his last few posts” which is about as non committal as you can get while voting for someone. He once again calls Tasky scum despite having unvoted him earlier and throws Friend in their as another OMGUS move.

He tries to argue that the sheeping point against him is “useless”... um not really. You have done extremely little in this thread when it comes to scum hunting. I see a lot of active lurking, not breaking down your thought process and just fake attempts at scum hunting. I don't sense any urgency, just a lot of statements with very little attempt at digging beneath the surface.

= = = =

The next player on the Tasky wagon was diddin. He answered Tasky's questions and actually followed Oso's reasoning with his vote onto the wagon with the whole contradiction is scummy mindset.

Also, FoS:Vezopiraka for that backpedal.

I'm not sure I should be voting Task, as some other people said, he's pretty new, and I doubt noobscum would have such an elaborate plan. From my experiences, noobtown tend to want to be as helpful as possible and end up looking scummy because of it. That, and noobscum often will freak out and start flailing with only a few votes on them and start fiailing, while Tasky has kept his composure pretty well.

unvote

diddin

when you accuse vezo of backpedaling what

exactly

are you talking about? Because you pretty much do the same thing as him with your Tasky unvote, only you happened to use a lot more words. For clarity's sake you sheeped Oso and then “backed away” after he unvoted. Where is the difference?

The post after this we get diddin voting for vezo for post 92, which I agree is scummy and probably vote worthy at that point in the game. However in his next post he unvotes.

L-2 this early? I think we really need to take a look at this wagon, as it took off way too quick.

unvote

diddin

Why is L-2 a big deal to you? What was so quick about the wagon?

I also he states that we should look at the wagon but doesn't actually do that himself or mention it ever again. Fake concern is fake. Also scummy.

True Oso, but all of that was written before he saw Vezo's post explaining why the post took particularly long to write. However, KageLord doesn't unvote afterward, which makes it seriously look like he's grasping for straws here.

FoS: KageLord

Above is more sheeping of Oso by diddin. Why isn't anyone noticing this?

Post 161 by diddin on SSBF is actually pretty good and I agree with it (more on SSBF in a moment.) He later puts his vote on SSBF and his reasoning isn't really that bad I just happen to think vezo is scummier than SSBF.

diddin

who are your top three scum suspects?

= = = = =

SSBF is the last Tasky wagonee I wanted to look at. He was the only one that kept his vote on Tasky for a decent amount of time.

1. not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy

No, not answering RQS questions is not scummy, it's a personal choice. Later on, when you're actually asking questions that actually contribute to the game, ignoring it constantly is scummy, but choosing not to answer RQS questions isn't scummy. This is why having a mixture of RVS and RQS is the best way to start a game IMO.

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

I like the case on Tasky so far.

Unvote, Vote: Tasky

At that point, the case on Tasky was A)role fishing (which is seems SSBF agreed with.) and b) The Oso contradiction. So when SSBF says he likes that case, that is what he is talking about. I like Friend's question here asking SSBF to explain the case in his own words. SSBF responds with an ISO read which suggests that he was actually thinking about the case rather than just jumping aboard the wagon. In my mind he wins a couple of town points here, but it would have been better if he had laid out clearly, all his reasons without having to be asked for them.

After this he starts to get into bad territory. Defending someone is not a scum tell. If I see weak or bad attacks on a player that I don't agree with I will defend them, I would expect every townie to do the same. There are sometimes where defending a player is scummy (chainsaws have been discussed), but you really have to judge each situation individually.

Only scum deal in absolutes so SSBF's instance that no one should ever defend anyone hits my scumdar hard. Even more so when he makes this post.

Smash, Chainsaw Defenses aren't a scumtell unless the person someone is defending indireectly is confirmed scum. So attacking people for chainsaws D1 is just lol.

So are you saying we should ignore chainsaw defenses on other people if we don't know the people's alignments? I'd rather let people know about them now so people will more likely be able to pick up on them if Player A attacked Player C while defending Player B and Player B flips scum then ignore it until Player B flips scum.

Cop with a town result on someone.

Unless it's in a Newbie Game or in an Open game that doesn't have Serial Killer/Mafa Godfather/any role that turn up innocent although they are not town-aligned, you cannot fully trust your town investigation. Even in a game without anti-town roles that turn up innocent on investigations, there can be different variations of Cops. You could be insane, which means that you actually got an Innocent on a scum. There is no guarateen that your Innocent investigation is true in most circumstances.

Masons.

You cannot rule out the possibility of Masons being part of a scum factions as well. Maybe unlikely, but it can happen. Scum Masons can lie about there alignments as well.

That would just be boring.

And that's worse then intentionally self-voting during the scum hunting stage because?

Feels like he is already trying to discredit any possible power roles we might have in the town. There is paranoid and then there is

paranoid

. I think this is slightly ridiculous in all honestly.

Unvote

Tasky's play resemble's a townie a lot more. He is finally contributing to the game and making stances. I'll still keep a close eye on him, thought. For example, I thought his ISO of diddin and vezokpiraka contained some unecessary information, especially the points where he passes them off as null tells, those can be cut off unless he has something worthwhile to say about them. Looking forward to hearing more out of the slot.

I also need to re-read the thread to see if I can bring anything else to the table and mention who I think should be the play for ToDay.

@diddin: ISO: 9: Why have you decided against defending your actions that I brought up against you?

He finally unvotes Tasky and returns to the safe netural zone.

SSBF

the deadline is seemingly around the corner why has it taken you so long to back off Tasky when you really stopped pushing his case awhile ago? What are you doing to help us reach a lynch?

= = = = =

So this post kinda grew as I went a lot, here is a TL:DR (too long: Didn't read) section

• The Tasky wagon fell apart way too quickly and it caught my attention.
  
• Oso's vote on Tasky looked good to me. As did the way he unvoted and reasoned himself away from the wagon. Didn't feel forced, felt like a natrual progression.
  
• Out of the people that were on Tasky's wagon at it's peak, vezo is the scummiest for his lack of any contribution.
  
• diddin also sheeped Oso hard, but very few people picked up on it
  
• diddin's concern over vezo being at l-2 was extremely fake
  
• diddin's SSBF vote is actually good
  
• SSBF started off pretty well but fell off with his ABSOLUTE scum tells that just don't work in the real world of scum hunting
  
• SSBF doesn't seem to be scum hunting right now.

Vote: vezo

The scummiest to me. diddin and SSBF have their scummy moments and their good moments so this vote is an easy one.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I think Oso and Humble's little back and forth feels like a town v town logic fight to the death. I will need to re-read that whole section to clear my mind, but that is my initial reaction. Others I haven't mentioned yet are pretty inseparable in my mind and I will have to take time and look over the ISO's to get working opinions. Hoping to do that some time tonight, or maybe early morning.

Still hoping we get an extension, there is plenty to chew on as far as this game goes. I would like just a day or so more time to try and digest.

[Sotty7]

diddin, I had a couple of questions addressed to you in my post. Are you going to answer them?

[Sotty7]

When I'm referring to vezo backpedaling, I'm referring to his voting on Tasky, then when the instigator of the bandwagon unvotes, he jumps off the wagon with just an "I agree." I'd say the difference is I actually posed my own insight on my unvote where vezo just blindly agreed.

True. I still find you slightly hypocritical for this though. You both basically unvoted for the same reason and to cast suspicion on him from your position is pretty weak in my eyes. You look better for giving more insight, but it is negated by your attack on vezo.

L-2 tends to be a big deal to me early in the game because D1 tends to generate the most discussion we can use for the future. I never want to rush a lynch D1 because I always feel there is more to discuss D1.

But what makes L-2 different from L-3? Normally the tipping point would be L-1 where either you ask for a claim or someone unvotes because they don't want a lynch that fast. This isn't a newbie game, the likely hood of a quick hammer is somewhat low. I see you listed vezo as one of your top three I would have thought keeping him high in the vote count would have been something you wanted (pressure=information) your unvote strikes me as an attempt to possibly buy town cred. One, because of the reasons mentioned as far as L-2 go, but also because you suggested looking at vezo's wagon but then you didn't do that. Why not?

I'll come back to your three scum suspects later, I still need to ISO a couple of people.

= = = = = =

I have a question for everyone:

at any point, up until the last page or so, did you ever think that SSBF was even a remote possibility for a lynch today?

Not until recently no. I still don't think he is the best lynch for today.

= = = = =

This day is too swingy.
Anything can happen and everyone may get lynched.

Here get some pressure if it's needed. My vote is still on kagelord but xvart apparently wants some help.

Unvote
Vote Quadz

You doing some work of your own in this thread would be a good place to start. Do you even find Quadz scummy?

[Sotty7]

xvart I'm not sure I am understanding you as far as the first part of that post goes. You are saying that even though quadz is voting for SSBF now, you think the vote is weak and lacks substance so points to bussing?

[Sotty7]

quadz starts off the game very neutral. Understands the “Tasky is scummy” situation but doesn't agree. I wonder quadz, did you find anyone scummy for pushing that line of thought?

He spends a little while not voting and seems to be feeling the game out until this:

BANDWAGON ON Q21!!!!!

Aww, crap. Too late.

Anyway, I agree about vezok.

I'm glad KageLord noticed the time differential between vezok's post and SSBF's; that was well done.

Vezok's very first post was an immediate vote on Tasky for "subtly" ending RVS, which was a scum-tell to him. However, Tasky very clearly pointed out he was attempting to end RVS:

now... since I'd actually like to get out of the RVS fast, I'll ask some questions for you to answer...

Far from subtle, hm?

He also said he thought quicklynches could be beneficial, and has provided close to none of his own opinion. (Of course, this early in the game, that's not really a big deal.)

I think right now, he's the scummiest-looking player, so...

VOTE: vezokpiraka

The bold part is the most striking to me. quadz, do you still think the time difference in between the two posts is a good point in the vezo case?

His case on SSBF does seem to come from nowhere, but he said he did a re-read and re-reads are when you would hope new info comes up. But after the case he does little to push his vote. SSBF's post after quadz votes him makes no mention of the vote or case on him. He just totally ignores this. Then quadz ignores the fact he is being ignored and we get a lot of nothing. That just doesn't seem like a townie reaction to me. Your vote gets ignored so you carrying doing nothing that has anything to do with your top suspect? Feels fake.

[Sotty7]

The reason I haven't looked at the vezo wagon is I think analyzing wagons is something to do after a flip.

L-2 this early? I think we really need to take a look at this wagon, as it took off way too quick.

unvote

I'm sorry but those two statements don't match up to me.

[Sotty7]

The only problem is his logic for voting SSBF is not sound compared to the other cases he's made; and he sure goes out of his way to say he's up for other lynches but thinks SSBF is scummier.

Can you show me the "other cases" quadz has made?

[Sotty7]

Why do you feel the need to apologize?

It's a turn of phrase, but nice attempted deflection back at me.

Anyways, as I said earlier, I don't like D1's ending quickly because I think you can get a lot of information off of them. I said WE need to take a look at the wagon, not just myself. I personally don't do wagon analysis's until after flips, but that doesn't mean that other people don't.

Well no one did take a look at the wagon that I remember. Why are you not up in arms over that? Your unvote seemed to suggest that you thought scum was driving the wagon and that veszo could be town. (If not, why the unvote?) Why don't you look at wagons until the flip? What do you think about my analysis's of the Tasky wagon?

I'm also with q21 in the fact that you are basically asking other people to do the work, it's scummy.

= = = = =

You're right, SSBF did ignore me. However, that wasn't a pressure vote. That was a "this guy is scummy, so I'm voting him" vote. If he didn't respond, then that's his choice to ignore it. I saw no need to push him into responding to it; what would I have said? "Hey, SSBF, I voted for you! Aren't you going to comment on it?" I'm sure that would have looked much less scummy.

Okay. Tell me, outside of your vote what are you doing to get SSBF lynched?

= = = = =

@ SSBF:

What do you think about quadz's vote on you? Why didn't you initially comment on it?

@ q21 and xvart:

What's your opinion of vezo right now and the wagon on him?

What happened to Oso?

[Sotty7]

...I asked you a question. Here is another, are you even reading the thread?

[Sotty7]

Yes I do.

Yes you do... What?

= = = = =

@ q21 and xvart:

What's your opinion of vezo right now and the wagon on him?

If I have to I'll vote him before deadline. A vezo lynch is better than no lynch. I still want more KageLord votes, though.

That's not really an opinion on vezo though is it?

= = = = =

Okay. Tell me, outside of your vote what are you doing to get SSBF lynched?

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

But you're also not pressuring or questioning him at all. It's like you have pulled a chair up next to him and are just staring at him waiting for something to happen. Pressuring people is the best to get scum tells to drop. The waiting game rarely works if at all.

= = = = =

I'd like to have more input from sotty regarding quadz (I'm aware you spoke a bit about him). What do you think about my case?. q21's opinion would be interesting too.

The biggest thing that came out of my iso read of quadz, in my opinion at least, was his vote on SSBF and then BOTH players pretty much ignoring it afterwards. His answers since haven't been compelling either. Still I am finding players like vezo and diddin scummier at this point.

Once I have caught up with the posts I have missed I will take a look back at your case on him in particular.

= = = = =

For someone who stated numerous times that I was scummy, he hasn't really brought much to the table as explained below.

As for why I didn't intially comment on it, I was trying to come up with a decent response to it, but could not think of one. At least I finally got it done.

Actually, it looks more like you were ignoring it, hoping it would go away and I backed you into a corner and had to answer.

So yeah, not good.

= = = = =

@sotty7

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

The key point of your case is quadz lynch preferences, I'm not sure why you think this is as strong as you seem to be making it. For one, it is day one, it doesn't take much to push someone to the top of my suspect list over another. I still think the fact quadz voted SSBF and then both of them ignoring the vote afterward is stronger than your interpretation of his top three suspects.

I am becoming open to the fact that vezo is a likely lightening rod. I have never played with him before but have modded him once. I could switch over to quadz, but it would be for the whole vote situation, not for your case study one.

= = = = =

I am going to say that I don't like the talk of bussing that is floating around already. I'm more about actually getting a scum flip

first

then looking at those possible situations.

Unvote, Vote: diddin

I find his unvote of vezo very scummy and his explanations for it just don't sway me away from the that belief and in fact made him look worse. By saying that he expected other people to look at the wagon (doing the work for him.) and then not ever mentioning said wagon again, is all very fake. He is also sitting in the back ground as much as he can. Feels like he is trying to hide behind the discussion.

I am open to switching over to quadz but I am going to

request a vote count

to see where we are right now. There is a decent case on quadz but I'm not convinced he is as obv scum as some of you seem to be.

[Sotty7]

Humble, your case on quadz is pretty good. He has been wishy washy and slow to commit, very timid to make any kind of waves. It is suspicious, I agree.

IMPORTANT

Homework: search quadz in ISO and look for the names Kage and vezo. Vezo is voted by quadz after agreeing with Kagelord. Vezo is repeatedly signaled as the scummiest person so far until ISO 21 where he votes against SSBF (causing a 3-3 tie vezok-Kage)

As other suspects, he mentions Vezok, Kagelord and xvart. Kagelord had never been mentioned before (save that agreement against vezok). Suspected for the first time, now that Kage is tied against vezok (whom quadz was voting).

If this doesn't seem extremely fishy... I don't know what does.

Are you saying that he is sheeping here? Also I'm not getting what you are driving at as far as the 3-3 tie with vezo and Kage goes. I'm not making the connection on how that is important.

[Sotty7]

quadz apparently doesn't favor vezok lynch over kage. He just wants to avoid nolynch.
lame.

Please, explain why this is lame. I'll take a mislynch over a nolynch on Day 1 every time. At least we get some information this way. Even if I'm to be lynched, that's all right; at least I'll be giving town information to work with in subsequent Days.

You took this out of context I think. Humble was trying to say your progression of suspicion on Kage/vezo/SSBF didn't add up (a similar point to the one xvart has been making and the more I look at it the more I see what they are driving at.)

EDIT: I see later Humble says pretty much this himself.

The people who were on my wagon, for one. You can bet that at LEAST one scum, probably more, is on it. They know that I'm playing scummily, and so will be a pretty easy lynch, so voting for me is relatively safe. I wouldn't be surprised if every scum is voting for me at the end of the day, if they aren't already (assuming I'm the lynch).

You agree you are playing scummy so if that is true, why is it scummy to be on your wagon? I'd like you to point at particular people that are voting for you that you believe are scum.

= = = = =

The VT claim at lynch -2 pushes me more towards placing my vote on quadz. Combine that with his last couple of posts where he is so

sure

the scum are voting him and yet won't say

who

.

[Sotty7]

diddin's has provided such little content today and now he jumps on the quadz wagon with very little reasoning of his own. Makes me skeptical on dropping the hammer.

[Sotty7]

If you want a larger summerization of vezokpiraka's scumminess, I'll provide it.

Then provide it. You seem to think that there is still time to lynch vezo, so why wouldn't you post this case to convince people to come onto your preferred lynch?

@xvart: Going deeper into "what if quadz08 flips town scenario"

How likely do you think it is quadz will flip scum?

[Sotty7]

I will hammer in the morning if no one else has anything else to say. The mod is in Australia isn't he? We really need a deadline timer going here.

[Sotty7]

Tazaro have you read the whole game yet? Who are your top three suspects?

I just found out something by browsing the forums a bit: Friend didn't replace out of all of his games when he replaced out of this one? Panicking scum or just too many games?

What's your opinion?

Here you are just asking the town to comment first before you commit to a position. Scummy.

Vote: diddin

His quick unvote of vezo at lynch-2 is horrible. He states “we should look at the wagon” because it built to fast. This suggests that he thinks a) vezo is likely town and b) there is scum on his wagon. However diddin

never mentions this wagon again

. When questioned about it, he just says that it's because he doesn't do wagon analysis until after the flip. He wanted other people to do his work for him. But it all just smacks fake to me because of his lack desire to see anyone talk about this wagon. I think it was a weak ploy to win town points.

He also did very little during yesterday, jumped onto quadz in a opportunistic manner and his first post of the day is, surprise surprise, non committal.

I don't like the weak suspicion on Humble, going to need something much more solid than "he could be smart scum."

[Sotty7]

Why do you assume that by rereading Humble I want him lynched? I think he's town and just want to reinforce my read. I don't just ISO people that I think are scum.

Well, who do you think is scum? That would be a good place to start.

I'm not unhappy with vezo as a competing wagon at this point. He has been plenty scummy in this game so far. I am just more conviced that diddin is scum.

[Sotty7]

And another. Yes, I said vezo was a weak player in this game. That's why he's easy to use by scum to divert attention.

So you don't think vezo is scum in the least?

= = = = =

The quadz wagon has already been analyzed in detail, I see no need to just repeat what others have already said. I don't ever recall telling people I was going to analyze the Quadz wagon, correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you agree completely with what others have said about the quadz wagon? What parts in particular and why?

Tasky: Votes vezo for not answering his questions even though he said they weren't important. This is the contradiction Oso pointed out early on that led to votes on Tasky.

But is it scummy?

Friend: Votes for vezo for sheeping on Oso. This is where the bandwagon starts to kick off.

And... What exactly?

KageLord: This is the vote I dislike most on the wagon, mostly because he's trying to use the fact the posts were 6 minutes apart to justify vezo sheeping with SSBF. Really looks like he's grasping at straws here.

Okay, I agree with you here. The timing thing is bad.

Well you have made some attempt in analysis the wagon at least, but there is just as much information instead of actual analysis. You do nothing to comment on the first two votes which is almost half the wagon. Also I see nothing in there that suggests you couldn't have done this post

yesterday

. You even call quadz vote horrible despite the fact we know he is town now. Why did you say you wanted to wait till we get some flips to produce a post that made zero comment on actual flips?

= = = = =

I saw Oso comment on the fact Tazaro's hammer demises his town read on that slot, but I don't understand it. Someone was going to hammer, whether it be Kage, myself or Tazaro, someone had too. When the hammer was being asked for so close to the deadline, why is it scummy for Tazaro have thrown it? Yeah he thought the slot was town, but in a deadline situation lynch is better than a no lynch. It would be different if there was a week till the deadline and he came in and threw the hammer. But that wasn't the case.

Welcome Aranneas. Good to have another seemingly active player. With that said can we get a

prod on Humble?

I don't think he has posted since the new day.

[Sotty7]

Sotty? Can you confirm or deny anything in diddin's claim?

Just skimming I noticed the claim and I can't confirm anything diddin said. Gonna read what I missed while I think over this claim. Gut says "JK neighbor" isn't very normal.

[Sotty7]

Oso

, just to clarify here, you no longer find Tazaro's hammer scummy?

And another. Yes, I said vezo was a weak player in this game. That's why he's easy to use by scum to divert attention.

So you don't think vezo is scum in the least?

How should I know?; his game play is VI.

This isn't a very good answer. What do you normally do with VI's then?

= = = = = =

Ok yeah I saw where he missed where KageLord was going to hammer, the hammerpost still looks like an attempt to buy town cred.

I don't understand this line of thought. Say Tazaro is scum, why would he try and buy town cred for hammering a townie? That doesn't add up. Unless you are claiming that hammering to prevent a no lynch is where he is buying the town cred. The fact is that he still hammered a townie, there is little to no town cred to claim here. The point is weak.

= = = = = =

If Tazaro continues to defend vezokpiraka in the magnitude he's doing it, depending on vezokpiraka's flip, it is really going to bite him in the back later on. The main defense Tazaro uses on vezokpiraka is playing the meta and VI card for him and I don't buy the defense, especially when another person is doing it for them. Further establishing the potential connection between both of them is that Tazaro is hardcore defending vezokpiraka. Take notes here as if vezokpiraka flips scum, Tazaro is probably scum as well (Tazaro is still possible scum even if a vezokpiraka town flip happens, since he is scummy independent of vezokpiraka's alignment).

What is scummy about Tazaro independent of vezo?

= = = = = =

Wait a minute, the "neighbour" thing is believable, but the "town jailkeeper" isn't necessarily true.
And I'm willing to bet the "neighbor" thing is used by the mod because at least one of the three neighbors is scum. Or else you could be called masons that may or may not have power roles.

OR the mod put three townies as neighbors to have them doubt each other and lessen the power of giving the town a direct masonary. Basically, it comes down to out guessing the mod and I don't want it all to come down to that.

I have played as a neighbor once before in this game. Basically what happened is that the mod threw in two pairs of neighbors, one pair was made up of two townies (myself and imaginality) and the other was one townie and one scum. The scum LOVED the fact there was neighbors because it did nothing but cause confusion in the town.

The best test for a neighborhood is asking the other neighbors what they think of each other. I managed to read imaginality as town in that game because there is a certain frankness about night talk and I just got a strong read off him. I would like diddin's other neighbors to claim their reads of him ASAP.

One thing that does give me pause for this claim is the way Humble and Oso went at each other yesterday. Seems out of place really for a neighborhood unless there was no trust at all. This is all kinda WIFOMy because I don't see scumdiddin outing his whole hypo scum team like that.

So I want to know specifically what the neighbors think of diddin. Was the JK role discussed in thread at all.

Vote stays for now.

[Sotty7]

If I were scum, what benefit would I have from claiming a provable power role? I may very well be the only protective role in the game. I would be safer claiming VT if I were scum since the flip of another protective role could possibly lead to my lynching.

How are you provable?

[Sotty7]

Claim your results.

[Sotty7]

And you hit it on the head, there is zero amount of trust in the neighbors night thread but alot of that can be logged off to Poirot not having access/limited access during the night and we were minus the third neighbor but I got a generally positive feeling from diddin. He didn't seem to be cadging or evasive or manipulative in anything we talked about. Didn't try to hatch any plots is what I'm saying.

The only thing that struck me as off is that he asked if we should hide our neighbor status if forced to RC. But seeing as how we are a group, even if unconfirmed with each other, not so much off that it worries me too much. The 'semi-informed minority' is a cool thing and it's natural to want to conceal that where possible.

Unvote

Okay this is what I was looking for, you seem to trust him, if only a little bit so I am willing to swallow that. With his claim and no counter, it makes the most sense to me that he protected me from a kill and so is probably telling the truth.

= = = = = =

What is scummy about Tazaro independent of vezo?

Obvious I hated Tazaro's hammer as he just came by and said "Oh, here's the hammer even thought I know the person is probably going to flip town.". Even if it's close to the deadline, a person who genuinely thought he was scummy should have hammered, not a person who has no opinion on anyone's alignment.

His justification for his hammer on quadz08 is very weak. He tries to use static to determind that it will most likely be a mislynch, which is a given since after all, Mafia is a game of the uninformed majority trying to get rid of the informed majority. However, when it comes to scum hunting, static and evidence supporting scummy behavior do not mix with each other. Him treating it as an informational lynch isn't a much better reason either as every lynch we should attempt to hit scum and we cannot afford to lynch someone purely for information.

He suggested that since mislynches usually happen Day 1, we should think that we got a mislynch coming. I really dislike this mentality. Town should never treat Day 1 as a probable mislynch Day, they should put forth all efforts toward finding scums on that day just like in later days, less information or not.

Tazaro's play is scummy independent of vezokpiraka's alignment. He'll look a lot worse if vezokpiraka flips scum.

This is all well and good if Tazaro was in the game since the start. He wasn't. He came in and hammered right near the deadline, no matter how you try and spin this it isn't scummy. There were no other viable wagons, little to no time to push anyone else up what did you expect him to do? I have also explained why the hammer isn't scummy during my discussion with Oso, what do you think of that?

I think you are pushing a very weak case here. His fluff posting his scummy, his not reading the game is scummy and these are things you don't even mention. The hammer is probably the one thing that isn't scummy about his play so far.

= = = = = =

Won't lie, I kinda skimmed Humble's big post on Ara. I'll come back to that later.

My vote would be on vezo right now. Waiting on him to finish his claim. No idea why he hasn't just freaking claimed his results right away. When you claim, this is what you DO. Feels like stalling.

[Sotty7]

Ah screw it. I will claim anyway. Now I am just more suspicious of you and Sotty.

If you didn't want to claim your results why ask the town if they wanted you to or not? It's counterproductive. It is also noted how quick you were to spew your results even though you “didn't want too”.

Double post: By the way, claim KageLord, you've been outed. And it's interesting you targetted diddin's neighbor Oso.

Interesting how?

I have seen mafia watcher a few times before but I wouldn't class it as common role. Jail keeper on the other hand is becoming more a more common these days, at least in my experience. A lot has happened and I think I will need to re-read a few times to process it all a figure out where my vote should go.

[Sotty7]

So... You don't actually have a case on me? Weak vote is weak.

[Sotty7]

You lynch me and I flip town that doesn't tell you a thing about diddin's role at all. You don't seem to think I am scum, so why are you suddenly embracing the POE?

[Sotty7]

And to answer you, I think it does. I repeat, there are too many PRs, in my opinion, in this game if you are not scum.

I don't get it. What do all the power roles claimed so far have to do with me being scum or not? I have claimed no role.

Maybe ignoring the claims at this point and just going with the players that aren't claimed is the better play, I don't know. Any suggestions?

Have you tried scum hunting? I'm serious here, who is the scummest person to you? Pressure them. Vote them. Right now you are costing by on the “claims” and distancing yourself from your vote on me by basically saying you don't think I am scum. It doesn't add up to me at all.

= = = = = =

Unvote, Vote Tazaro

I tipped when he unvoted diddin, then FoSed diddin in his very next post. Its just the culmination of an endless stream of self contradictions, not paying attention to his own posts - let alone others', fluff and nonsensical conspiracy theories. He has to go.

Care to weigh in on all the claims at all?

[Sotty7]

We have 3 claimed PRs. All of them have true claimed (at least that is premise I am going on) there was no NK. Therefore diddin claim of jailing you didn't keep you from being killed, it prevented you from killing someone.

This makes

no

sense. If you believe the power roles have “true claimed” why do you suddenly LEAP to the conclusion that I was blocked from making the kill? AKA, if you believe there is a town watcher, JK and ??? why does that mean I was the one doing the killing? Why can't it mean that I was just sat at home being

protected

? The power roles claiming have nothing to do with me or my role. You are really reaching bad here.

Tazaro shouldn't be claiming until he is at lynch -1 and someone is willing to hammer.... Geez.

Vote: q21

In the background, done very little. Avoided commenting on the claims. Feels like scum laying low. Oso's vote on me is also looking very bad to me now.

[Sotty7]

Oso, I don't see what you are driving at all. Calling me stupid doesn't help me see your point. Me being jailed is a separate event from the other "power roles" one has no baring on the other. They are interdependent events In my mind you are using faulty justification to vote me.

[Sotty7]

Guess I am stupid, I see no sensible reasoning there at all.

[Sotty7]

Unvote, Vote: Oso

He is trying to run me out on a POE but is now some how convinced that he knows who the scum targeted last night. It's all shaky reasoning with no basis in fact outside his own assumptions. Also has zero consideration for possible scum power roles. If everyone who has claimed a power is telling the truth, don't you think the scum would have some counter to that?

[Sotty7]

The reasoning of what it's all about is: There wasn't a nightkill AND sotty7 was claimed by diddin to be jailed.
Now, do you guys want to take diddin's claim with a major mafiagoon-sized grain of salt or not? What do you say about this question, Sotty7?

Dude that has been the case since diddin claimed the other day. diddin himself doesn't think I am scum.

Explain to me why I wasn't protected, and then explain why the amount of power roles that have claimed today have anything to do with that.

[Sotty7]

In one post vezo says don't rush the wagon and in his very next he votes Ozo. Can you explain the change of opinion vezo?

[Sotty7]

Wow, I had no idea that was the hammer. I would have preferred much more discussion around Oso in particular some input from q21 who has done VERY little this game.

Oh, one thing this:

Not at insult. My baiting her with a accusation that she is being deliberately dense to draw me into further discussions to perhaps get a back pedal on my part or something she can use to give herself some wiggle room. I'm not biting that hook.

This is the first time you're calling Kagelord "she". This looks like further attempts to get a violent reaction or something. Not nice.

I went back and checked to make sure I hadn't inadvertently done that.

That was directed at Sooty7 who, I believe, is a woman. Married to the player zackrulzes if I read right in one of the non-game threads.

Yes, I am a woman. With no gender icons on this board yet I don't bother to correct anyone who refers to me as a “he” or “him”. It would get too tiresome really what with there being no girls on the internet and all that.

[Sotty7]

I am back and catching up.

[Sotty7]

Okay, so Kage's flip does point towards Oso town. I'm not willing to lynch him any more.

My suspects right now are diddin, q21, Aranneas. I am struggling to believe all the power roles claimed are town, diddin looks even scummier to me if whoever vezo saw last night is actually a doc because that would be another plausible reason for why there was a no kill on night one.

I'm still kinda out of it, will need to re-read some more to figure out where I want to place my vote.

Mod: Can we get a prod on Aranneas? He hasn't posted since day opened

[Sotty7]

xvart, why are you suddenly confidant I am scum?

I think we are going to be heading very quickly into mass claim here. Oso, are you saying you want vezo to claim his result and then you will claim yours? I'm not exactly sure where you are heading with the above post but if that's the point then I am behind you. I'm willing to believe Kage got an innocent on you, he was outted yesterday and if he had a guilty he would have just come out with it at that point.

[Sotty7]

My only issue is that now vezo knows he can't lie and squirm out of this and he will have to tell the truth. This plan will only work if Vezo isn't a watcher, but we already pretty much know he is because of the result he gave yesterday when it comes to Kage.

[Sotty7]

Well I am a roleblocker. I have blocked diddin on both nights which is mostly why I couldn't confirm if he blocked me or not. I didn't buy his JK claim and still don't considering I could have easily blocked the night kill on night one.

All these power roles can't be town. It is too freaking ridiculous.

Vote: diddin

[Sotty7]

No it wouldn't. Just because I am a town roleblocker doesn't mean diddin couldn't be a town JK. Keep in mind this was on day one. Things have progressed well since then, I think diddin has to be a scum JK.

I am also someone that likes to hide my role when I have one. I will only claim if needed, like just now. I don't breadcrumb. The only exception to the rule is the cop guilty/innocent crumbs.

[Sotty7]

That's out guessing the mod though isn't it?

Looking at this set up, I can already see that this mod isn't one you can predict.

[Sotty7]

Why would I be thinking about claiming when you attacked me? Sure, I would have claimed if I reached lynch-1 but not before. I prefer to debate points, in my mind claiming should happen when you are in danger of being lynched and there is no way out of it. Then you claim your role so the town has all possible info before lynching. I know not a lot of people buy into this thought process as proven by this game, but that's how I play. I'm a little old school like that.

There was no part yesterday that I felt in any danger from your attack Oso because it was so bad and just ignored a chunk of what could have happened. You stretched it to suit your conclusion on me instead of looking at everything objectively. However if the town had picked it up and ran with it I would have claimed. To me, your reasoning was very poor and it felt like you were attempting to rid the town of me because you were worried that I could have been seen as a confirmed townie that was protected. So instead you attacked me. Your scumminess yesterday doesn't stop diddin from being scummy, but the set up continues to confuse me.

Why else do you think I was talking about mass claim today? I am starting to believe we have

very few

straight VTs in this game.

[Sotty7]

I'm not the mod, I have no idea who blocked the kill.

To speculate, I think it was me. diddin tried to kill me and when it failed claimed scum JK because he was being run up.

[Sotty7]

Am I lynched yet?

[Sotty7]

Well damn. I had this whole thing planned out but I guess I should forget it now. This game has a crippling set up, quite annoying.

[Sotty7]

Thanks for all the praise I seem to be getting in this thread. Makes me feel all warm inside at least I was doing something right.

As for the plan, there was none, it was just me blustering. I basically did one thing I hate to do and that was lurk. I knew I was caught out so I didn't want to drop any big tells to my buddies so I waited until I was hammered and started to moan about the set up. I kinda wanted to give vezo a little towncred by doing this I don't think it worked that well.

This game was all about the town power roles which is normally games I hate to play, I prefer good old fashioned scum hunting. The group of players in this one actually made this a really fun game add onto that the mods great flavor. I don't think I had played with most of this player list before I replaced in, but I would defiantly like to repeat this experience.

As for the scums pre game talk, I read the QT before starting to read the game, but after reading that plan I wanted to run away as far as I could from it all. Thankfully they didn't pull the trigger, but I even PM'ed the mod about my fear of even looking at the first page!

P.S: Humble I'm a female, just an FYI

[Sotty7]

XD She can convert me any day.

I did have fun screwing with the dead townies in the QT . All games should have dead topics, makes keeping up with everything once your dead much easier.

[Sotty7]

I think vezo has it confused, the mod wanted whoever was killing to be the one to send in the role PM, I don't think it was limited to the GF.

The town was massively over powered IMO because it would have taken some real luck to win this game for the scum team, not skill. Pretty sure the cop was sane since we did have a GF.