Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[q21]

Um... *sneaks in the back door*


I've just read through the thread and absolutely none of it has managed to stick in my head... Probably has something to so with it being 0:30 and having spent the whole day melting my brain with Thermodynamics calculations of doom.

Er...

Vote: q21

For his blatantly, if inadvertently, lurking through the first 5 pages of the game.

[q21]

Aw.,... and we had a 2 vote bandwagon going and everything...

[q21]

ITT defending people is a scumtell

I'm not saying Tasky is or isn't scum, which Jay doesn't seem to get. I'm saying he was NOT rolefishing with his RQs. Nothing more, nothing less.

The suspicion on Tasky stemmed from the rolefishing accusations. By trying to invalidate that you are trying to invalidate the suspicion on Tasky, ergo you are defending him.

Also, I agree with Oso that the 6 minute time discrepancy is about as null as they come. Worth a question or two maybe, but nowhere near the pressure Kagelord has put on it.

Vote: Kagelord.

My badwagon obviously wasn't working out, its time for a Kagelord wagon.

Just a reminder: you need to unvote before you vote again. I know it's a not a big thing, but to keep the rules consistent throughout the game, your vote will not be counted if your vote is already on somebody else and you haven't unvoted first.

[q21]

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

Bullshit. There are situations where it is not. Situations where it is even a towntell. You're trying to turn a circumstantial point into a concrete one. It won't work.

[q21]

Mod:

I'm voting KageLord.

Also, vezo's OMGUS is noted.

[q21]

Oh...

Unvote, vote KageLord

Thanks vezo, your vote was still OMGUS, though.

[q21]

I've just read through the thread and absolutely none of it has managed to stick in my head... Probably has something to so with it being 0:30 and having spent the whole day melting my brain with Thermodynamics calculations of doom.

Er...

Vote: q21

For his blatantly, if inadvertently, lurking through the first 5 pages of the game.

Are you trying to make a joke out of not being around because it is scummy and you hope to negate that? The fact that you have read the

entire five pages

and you have no better place to put your vote than on yourself is shocking.

It is not scummy that I missed the first 5 pages because I hadn't even seen my role PM yet. Yes, its a little pathetic that I didn't notice the new PM... but not scummy. That read of the game was made when my brain was completely fried, very little stuck so instead of voting completely randomly or posting nothing I did something with the potential to evoke some interesting reactions.

Town see someone self vote in their first post (even after 5 pages) and most of the time they'll laugh a little and move on. Scum on the other hand feel they need to jump on everything and as a result they jump on that self vote. On its own its hardly enough to condemn anyone, but your response and SSBF's earlier was enough to catch my attention.



@ KageLord: Some good points in 157 and you show that your suspicion of vezo is maybe more than just the ISO 5/6 thing. However, you still put way too much emphasis on that point so it still feels like you're reaching. It might be worth more if the terms noob pass and noob card weren't so common around here.
Also, 3 scum is the the case in the overwhelming majority of mini normal games. It's not a rule, but its highly unusual for it to be anything else.

[q21]

It is not scummy that I missed the first 5 pages because I hadn't even seen my role PM yet. Yes, its a little pathetic that I didn't notice the new PM... but not scummy. That read of the game was made when my brain was completely fried, very little stuck so instead of voting completely randomly or posting nothing I did something with the potential to evoke some interesting reactions.

Interestingly enough that you didn't mention any of that in your initial post. Yes, I believe you that you didn't see the role PM. Also, you honestly think that self voting five pages in is more productive than just saying, missed my role pm, read the game but didn't get anything because my brain is fried. Expect more later; or something along those lines? My point is that from my perspective it is an honest mistake to miss a role pm. But scum would have more of a reason to justify it or catch themselves before anyone else can call them out on the behavior, which is exactly what you did.

I did mention most of it. I said that I'd read the thread and not much had stuck, I even said it was because I was melting my brain with work all day (sorry, didn't say frying. You'll have to forgive the inconsistency of my terminology). True, I didn't point out that I was fishing for reactions, but saying that outright would kinda defeated the purpose.

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Town see someone self vote in their first post (even after 5 pages) and most of the time they'll laugh a little and move on. Scum on the other hand feel they need to jump on everything and as a result they jump on that self vote. On its own its hardly enough to condemn anyone, but your response and SSBF's earlier was enough to catch my attention.

Seriously? You think someone self voting on page five when there is actual scumhunting/discussion going on would just be laughed off? That's laughable, and now you are reaching to try and make those that called you out on it

appear

to be the scum. The fact that you are softly trying to build a case or a level of suspicion on the people calling you out on the self vote is suspicious; and if I wasn't so

Lets analyse the responses to that self vote... 9 out of 11 players other than myself moved on without so much as a comment (maybe they laughed, maybe they didn't; I don't know, I don't have little cameras at everyone's computers to see if they're laughing). 2 out of eleven people called me out for it. Even if neither you not SSBF are scum, those numbers still prove that most townies paid it very little mind.

Bullshit. There are situations where it is not. Situations where it is even a towntell. You're trying to turn a circumstantial point into a concrete one. It won't work.

Alright, show me situations where it is a towntell. Not even a nulltell, a towntell.

Cop with a town result on someone. Masons.

Town see someone self vote in their first post (even after 5 pages) and most of the time they'll laugh a little and move on. Scum on the other hand feel they need to jump on everything and as a result they jump on that self vote. On its own its hardly enough to condemn anyone, but your response and SSBF's earlier was enough to catch my attention.

I got on to you because that self-vote was completely unecessary. We were already starting to hunt for scum, so the self-vote was completely unecessary. All you needed to do was to say "Hi, I'm here, will post tomorrow", and I would understand.

That would just be boring.

[q21]

SSBF - Your rebuttals of my examples are technically possible, but scum Masons are incredibly rare in normal games and if you have an town result as a cop the best thing to do is believe that until you have verifiable reason not to. The crux of the matter is that there are (many) situations where those examples hold up just fine which means that your statement that defending is always a scumtell is false.

And that's worse then intentionally self-voting during the scum hunting stage because?

You say "worse" like I'd actually done something bad.

[q21]

Person A attacks Person B who is attacking Person C, so technically person A is chainsaw Defending person C. however, that chainsaw should not be a ground for voting person A unless person C flips scum. IF person C would be to flip town, would you still be suspicious of person A?

Logic in a vacuum like this rarely works well in mafia. Person C could flip town and Person A could still be scum who was looking to buy town-cred. With defending and chainsaw defending each occurrence needs to be looked at and judged individually based on the nature of that defending and the situation in the thread at the time.

At this point in the game I don't read anyone as having defended anyone else in such a scummy way.

[q21]

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Nice deflection back on me. I obviously read your post, and the only thing relevant to the game is the fact that you self voted (and your "justification").

So then why ask me about why I didn't include things if those things weren't relevant? (despite the fact that I did include some of them)

Lets analyse the responses to that self vote... 9 out of 11 players other than myself moved on without so much as a comment (maybe they laughed, maybe they didn't; I don't know, I don't have little cameras at everyone's computers to see if they're laughing). 2 out of eleven people called me out for it. Even if neither you not SSBF are scum, those numbers still prove that most townies paid it very little mind.

So, hypothetically if only two people catch a scumtell it is invalid?

No, I didn't say that. If only two people catch a scumtell then its up to those two people to bring it to everyone else's attention. Thing is, selfvoting like that isn't a scumtell. My point was not that I thought 9 players missed my self vote, I reckon everyone saw it (its a kinda obvious thing), but that most of the other players figured it wasn't worth calling me out on.

[q21]

Busy until Monday. Will catch up then and post.

[q21]

Just because my vote doesn't have a unique reason of its own doesn't mean that it doesn't have nay substance.

[q21]

I did.

[q21]

What do you mean your vote is still on KageLord?

[q21]

The reason I haven't looked at the vezo wagon is I think analyzing wagons is something to do after a flip.

L-2 this early? I think we really need to take a look at this wagon, as it took off way too quick.

unvote

I'm sorry but those two statements don't match up to me.

This, is a very good catch.

Explain yourself, diddin.

[q21]

The reason I haven't looked at the vezo wagon is I think analyzing wagons is something to do after a flip.

L-2 this early? I think we really need to take a look at this wagon, as it took off way too quick.

unvote

I'm sorry but those two statements don't match up to me.

Why do you feel the need to apologize?

Anyways, as I said earlier, I don't like D1's ending quickly because I think you can get a lot of information off of them. I said WE need to take a look at the wagon, not just myself. I personally don't do wagon analysis's until after flips, but that doesn't mean that other people don't.

The word we is inclusive of the person who says it. This means that when you said "

we

really need to take a look at this wagon" you were including yourself among those to needed to analyze the wagon. If you'd meant that people other than yourself needed to do the analysis you'd have said "you really need to...".

That, of course, excludes the fact that wanting other people to do work you yourself are not willing to do is pretty anti-town all by itself.

[q21]

@ q21 and xvart:

What's your opinion of vezo right now and the wagon on him?

If I have to I'll vote him before deadline. A vezo lynch is better than no lynch. I still want more KageLord votes, though.

[q21]

Humble I FoS'd Kage a while back when Oso first put heat on him, even though now, I think I'd put q21 up there because he still hasn't said why Humble is scum and Humble is on my town list.

Please point me to where I have ever stated that I think Humble is scum.

[q21]

@xvart - Patience. I wanted to read some more of your post about quadz before commenting.

Looking back at that post 296, I think I like your reasoning. The discrepancy in his order of suspicion (mentioned in 296 and 274 before that) is scummy. I had to check for myself that those reason are indeed the primary ones for his vote on SSBF; Quadz states quite clearly that that is the case in 200. I'd like to note also that I dislike this post:

So... IMHO, jay is either being REALLY dumb, or telling the truth. I'm leaning towards really dumb.

Any player with brains should know that in a normal game, having a role (especially an investigative one) that can be used before N1 is remarkably rare. In fact, I don't know of any roles that CAN investigate before N1. Unless the mod decided to try something new out (which I don't

think

is standard procedure in normal games), jay is making things up.

Here are my options:
A) Jay is a day-cop, who's telling the truth, albeit stupidly.
B) Jay is a lyncher, who's going about it remarkably obtusely.
C) Jay is a jester, which isn't a huge stretch after that post.

Whatever the case may be, his method of producing that information was quite foolish, methinks. I'm unsure what to think of his alignment, but I do find it possible that he could be a jester... or a mafia-aligned bomb? Or some such thing.

Please explain, jay.

Where he goes about offering possible explanations for a post which I'd be surprised even jay himself can explain properly. Why exactly he's doing it, I don't know. Maybe he's trying to take the heat of a scumbuddy who's just done something stupid. Maybe he's trying to post something that looks like meaningful content, but isn't. Either way, I don't much like this post.

Unvote, Vote Quadz

Yes, yes... I can here the parrot and sheep noises already.



Another point, xvart. I understand your reasoning for why you think quadz and SSBF are scum together. There is, however, also the possibility that you and quadz are scum together. He's picked up on some things he can make a half-decent case on SSBF with (note, only

half

-decent. It has a ways to go before it reaches properly decent). He's scum and he wants to lynch SSBF-town, so he runs with what he has; he puts vezok at lynch priority 2 because its the easy choice.

Then, as the good player you are (and I get the impression from your posts that you are a good player) you point out the hole in his case despite being his scumbuddy. The hole being that the same reasoning applied to SSBF applies to you too. quadz realises he can't not suspect you at all, but you're his scumbuddy and he doesn't want you lynched. So he tacks and extra (and rather lame) reason onto his suspicion of SSBF and then tacks you onto his lynch priority at 3 - where he'll probably never have to act on it.

Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but maybe not. If he's suspecting two people different amounts for the same things it follows just as logically - of not moreso - that he's partnered with the one he suspects less than with the one he suspects more.

[q21]

[

Tazaro

: I understand he replaced near the end of the deadline, but that didn't mean he should have immediately hammered quadz08. He gave no explanation on why he found quadz08 scummy.

I said I did not suspect quadz08. I made it clear that it's an information lynch.

Okay, so you approached it as an information lynch. What information were you expecting it to reveal? What information did it actually reveal to you?

[q21]

Top 3 scumspects:

1. SSBF
2. quadz
3. vezo

KageLord is a close fourth.

Here is your scumlist from yesterday... Why was SSBF at the top of that list? More importantly, he seems to have completely dropped off of your scumlist today. Why? Especially in light of this:

xvart, tasky is v/la for a while if I recall correctly.

I'm happy voting quadz if we can lynch SSBF tomorrow.

unvote, Vote: Quadz

My best guess is that a scumbuddy of yours (maybe SSBF himself, maybe not) told you to back off him last night.

[q21]

Forgot to copy this into the Post Reply window of my last post...

Good. We lynched obvious scum.
Two more to go. I bet money on SSBF and diddin.

You say I am a weak player.
Scum always try to force a mislynch on me.
If diddin flips town tazaro should be the next to go.

This is a direct contradiction. First you say "SSBF and diddin are obv scum," then later you say "if diddin flips town tazaro should be lynched next."

Seems REALLY opportunistic because there are a handful of people who are suspicious of Tazaro and you can just bandwagon with them even though you said SSBF is obv scum.

That is not a direct contradiction. He didn't say SSBF and diddin are obvscum; he seems confident about it, but does call them obvious. In the second post the does then call diddin town, he accounts for the possibility that he's town. At worst its a little (and I emphasise little) contradictory - calling it a "direct contradiction" is exaggeration. And is scummy.

[q21]

You know why i was suspicious of SSBF, I posted a case on him a while back due to his "Defense is a Scumtell" thing. I think he's acted a bit more town and he's on my neutral-scummy list now.

See I don't buy this. Your attitude of "voting quadz if we can lynch SSBF tomorrow" and you're barely even mentioning his name today... just don't correlate and that lack of correlation isn't explained by this post. When did he have time to act more town? Over night? Because I don't see anything super townie in his opening posts of the day that could so radically change your mind.

Unvote, Vote diddin

q21: what is your opinion on vezo?

That he's VI and that that could be hiding a scum. If it comes down to me having to hammer him at deadline I won't hesitate, but I don't see the point in joining in the pressure on him because he's just going to sprout more VI-ness.

[q21]

BTW That's L-1

Claim.

[q21]

Unvote, Vote Tazaro

I tipped when he unvoted diddin, then FoSed diddin in his very next post. Its just the culmination of an endless stream of self contradictions, not paying attention to his own posts - let alone others', fluff and nonsensical conspiracy theories. He has to go.

[q21]

The A2E isn't going to win you any points.

[q21]

I read through the beginning of the game, looking at the Tasky wagon as a starting point because we now know he's town. I think there's scum on there. At its climax that wagon looked like this:

Tasky - Vazo, Oso, diddin, SSBF

Vezo - Claimed and proven watcher. Not necessarily proven town, but I'm leaning strongly that way based on the claim.
Oso - Was on the wagon for valid reasons and got off for valid reasons. I see nothing amiss with his participation on this wagon. Add that to the fact that I think his play as been townie overall and I'm not interested in pursuing his lynch.
diddin - Jailkeeper claim. It could be scum RB, but I'm not feeling that. I'm against lynching the claimed JK today. (interestingly enough, my stances on Oso and diddin mean that from a game setup standpoint I don't mind a Humble lynch. Will have to reread him to see if I'm also fine with it from a play standpoint.)
SSBF - Only one left, so off to look at his play

ISO: 4 Performs a major contradiction. At the top of the paragraph, he said it was just for him to get a sort of a personality profile. In his response to jayfl383, he said that not answering the questions were scummy. See #43 for more information about the contradiction.

It was not a major contradiction. It wasn't even an obvious contradiction. It was nowhere near as clear cut as you make it out to be here. Oso wrote more than one post trying to explain how this contradiction worked. SSBF is inflating the point.

ITT defending people is a scumtell

I'm not saying Tasky is or isn't scum, which Jay doesn't seem to get. I'm saying he was NOT rolefishing with his RQs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Defending people is a scum tell, period. Defending a person establish a connection between you and that person you're defending. If the person you're defending flips scum, this can help people catch you if you're scum. If you're town, it's going to make you look bad. And it does not matter how you defended Tasky, it is still a scum tell.

The now infamous point about defending people being a scumtell. It's worth nothing that something he seems to consider such a blatant, clear cut scumtell didn't make it into his answer to Tasky's questions about how he'd go about finding scum. He then goes on to defend this erroneous position almost rabidly. An example being:

Smash, Chainsaw Defenses aren't a scumtell unless the person someone is defending indireectly is confirmed scum. So attacking people for chainsaws D1 is just lol.

So are you saying we should ignore chainsaw defenses on other people if we don't know the people's alignments? I'd rather let people know about them now so people will more likely be able to pick up on them if Player A attacked Player C while defending Player B and Player B flips scum then ignore it until Player B flips scum.

Cop with a town result on someone.

Unless it's in a Newbie Game or in an Open game that doesn't have Serial Killer/Mafa Godfather/any role that turn up innocent although they are not town-aligned, you cannot fully trust your town investigation. Even in a game without anti-town roles that turn up innocent on investigations, there can be different variations of Cops. You could be insane, which means that you actually got an Innocent on a scum. There is no guarateen that your Innocent investigation is true in most circumstances.

Masons.

You cannot rule out the possibility of Masons being part of a scum factions as well. Maybe unlikely, but it can happen. Scum Masons can lie about there alignments as well.

That would just be boring.

And that's worse then intentionally self-voting during the scum hunting stage because?

Refutes all the examples I gave him, despite those examples being perfectly relevant.

Quadz08: Reading Quadz08 in ISO, #258 feels like AtE. He admitting to having a problem with his play style instead of actually making a decent response to Poirot's case to him with Poirot made in #252. I also find it odd that despite him attacking vezokpiraka, that he's currently going after me. He showed us more evidence that vezokpiraka was scum then I was, yet has a vote one me.

I also wasn't a fan of his defense of diddin as it made him look hypocritical when calling me out for "defending is a scum tell."

. The case against Quadz08 is decent as well. Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

The bolded makes no sense. quadz calls you out for your claim that defending people is a scumtell and quadz defends someone. There is no hypocrisy there, there is the complete opposite, consistency. If he'd been the one to say "defending is a scumtell" and then defended someone, that would be hypocrisy. SSBF is trying to look like he's adding something to the quadz case that was going on, labelling something hypocrisy because it hypocrisy is a scummy buzzword - not because that's what actually happened.

@xvart: Going deeper into "what if quadz08 flips town scenario":

1. What would that say about me and diddin, since we're considered by you quadz08's scum partners?
2. Who would be your third lynch candidate?
3. Would you analyze the bandwagon that you've created for scums?

I do not see a townie raising these questions before a quadz town flip. Especially not a town who has (however superficially) claimed some suspicion of quadz himself. I find it much more likely that you knew what his flip would be because you're scum and you know who's town.

Vote SSBF

Scummiest person still breathing.

[q21]

I don't understand Oso's contradiction. I don't want to defend Tasky here because I think he's pretty scummy anyways, but I still don't get it.

UNVOTE: SSBF
VOTE: Diddin

Jumping all over that came off as quite opportunistic.

Doesn't want to defend Tasky. Okay. Right. Lets look at some of his following posts.

Guys, take a look at Tasky's join date, posting style, etc. Now tell me, do you really think he's good enough to subtly rolefish like that as scum? Cause I really don't.

@KageLord: how would scum find out a cop/doc through Tasky's questions?

Defending Tasky.

SSBF: Tell me what the case on Tasky is, in your own words.

Defending Tasky.

SSBF. Think about it, now. I'm not defending Tasky on anything else except the rolefishing accusations, because I do NOT think Taskyscum is capable of thinking "hm I'll try and out some PRs with these RQs" in a million years. .

Defending Tasky.

Says he doesn't want to defend Tasky and then... defends Tasky. Its like he doesn't actually want to call Tasky town because that might serve to decrease his targets for a potential mislynch, but he knows he can look involved if he weighs in on the Tasky situation. What he ends up doing is getting caught between the two.

...


Oh, Good Lord! I'd forgotten how much Humble writes. I'm not going to half read him and a whole read would take more time than I have right now. That will have to wait until a later time. From memory his plays has been fairly town - but maybe he's just using lots of words to obfuscate his scumminess. Jury is still out on him for me.

[q21]

SSBF: I'm not going to argue every point with you. For the most part I've made my points and you've made your rebuttals, people can make up there own minds. There are, however a couple I'd like to mention.

The bolded makes no sense. quadz calls you out for your claim that defending people is a scumtell and quadz defends someone. There is no hypocrisy there, there is the complete opposite, consistency. If he'd been the one to say "defending is a scumtell" and then defended someone, that would be hypocrisy.

SSBF is trying to look like he's adding something to the quadz case that was going on, labelling something hypocrisy because it hypocrisy is a scummy buzzword - not because that's what actually happened.

Bolded: Are you ignoring the part where I called him out for using AtE and not doing a very good job with his case on me? So you're saying that I added nothing to quadz08's caes then?

The AtE was barely that and you were wishy-washy about calling him on it.
As to the other part, what you wrote was :

I also find it odd that despite him attacking vezokpiraka, that he's currently going after me. He showed us more evidence that vezokpiraka was scum then I was, yet has a vote one me.

Sentence one,: there's nothing wrong with suspecting two people at once. Sentence two: I disagree, he'd attacked vezo at one or two points along the way and he had also back off vezo for one or two points along the way; you, he set out specifically to make a case against.

I also noticed that all your evidence is from Day 1/very early Day 2. Given that I'm your top suspect, I was kind of hoping that you would provide more recent examples of why I am scummy. Your case on me is dated.

The vast majority of your day 2 play is characterised by: Attacking Vezo; attacking Tazaro; attacking vezo and Tazaro together. There is also a bandwagon analysis right at the beginning of the day which is decent, but indicative of intellect more than alignment.
The point can be made that you're only going after the easy targets, but that point is lessened by the fact that going after Tazaro is mostly a null tell. His play warranted pretty much every attack levelled against it and was worth every vote on him. People on his lynch are just as easily town targeting scummy play as scum targeting the easy mislynch.

The only point worth raising among your attacks on Tazaro is this one:

And Tazaro, for the love of god don't replace out. You replaced in for a person who would be V/LA for too long to play the game, for you to replace out via request would be disrespectful to the game. I'd rather have you lynched today.

His replacing out might have filled a town spot with a more reasonable player. Reads like you're scared that if he is replaced by a reasonable player you lose your easy lynch.


Moving on.

@q21

Says he doesn't want to defend Tasky and then... defends Tasky. Its like he doesn't actually want to call Tasky town because that might serve to decrease his targets for a potential mislynch, but he knows he can look involved if he weighs in on the Tasky situation. What he ends up doing is getting caught between the two.

Dude... Do you even remember why you guys were going after Tasky? You were going at him because Tasky had asked some questions and that was supposed to be a mild attempt to end the rvs (which according to vezok, meant scum).

What you're doing is terrible. You're dismissing the whole context of situations and going for the A did B -> that must be a scumtell.

In context there was little to no reason to believe Tasky was scummy outside of the issues raised around those questions. Friend was defending him with respect to that, but still made sure to say he still thought Tasky might be scummy.

Oh, Good Lord! I'd forgotten how much Humble writes. I'm not going to half read him and a whole read would take more time than I have right now. That will have to wait until a later time. From memory his plays has been fairly town - but maybe he's just using lots of words to obfuscate his scumminess. Jury is still out on him for me.

I try to be as clear as possible. If you want to ask me anything about the game and want me to be brief just say so. Anyway, Humble may be smart scum... I seem to remember that... If you feel I'm deliberately obfuscating my posts somehow please point to me where and why.

@q21

: Yesterday you voted diddin for the L-1 and asked for a claim. Next you voted Tazaro and left. Why is diddin town JK and not anything else?

read through the beginning of the game, looking at the Tasky wagon as a starting point because we now know he's town. I think there's scum on there

Another non-statement. Scum, is likely to be in the waggon. Also, you were on the waggon too. What about it?

You dismiss players just because they claimed something? Their motives do not matter?

diddin - Jailkeeper claim. It could be scum RB, but I'm not feeling that. I'm against lynching the claimed JK today. (interestingly enough, my stances on Oso and diddin mean that from a game setup standpoint I don't mind a Humble lynch. Will have to reread him to see if I'm also fine with it from a play standpoint.)

Of course you don't. Based on what arguments would you lynch me?

Firstly, I didn't say you were obfuscating I said you may be. On the weekend I will reread you and I will decide one way or the other. Then, if there are instances, I will bring them up.
Secondly, I was not on that wagon. At no point on Day 1 did I vote for Tasky.
It would be too strong to say I 100% believe diddn's claim, but I'm not interested just now in lynching the uncounter-claimed protective role. I don't think Oso is scum. These views give me reason to want to reread you as in this situation I need to think you may be scum from both the standpoints of the setup and your play. If after a proper read of you I have genuinely no valid reason to suspect you I think I'll go back to suspecting diddin.

SSBF - Only one left, so off to look at his play

Oh my... Do I sense you're pulling "Thea Aran stunt" against SSBF? Look at everything he posted and try to find something scummy about it in retrospect?

The worst thing is that many of the things you say now, you had the opportunity to say in the past and didn't.

Maybe in game time I had the opportunity, but in RL time I didn't.

[q21]

I will get to Humble Poirot's post about me and my bandwagon analysis tomorrow. I got way too caught up in Marathon Day and a Marathon game is coming up. However, I will get those done tomorrow among other things if I find something I want to bring up. However, I do want to get to q21's point against me.

The AtE was barely that and you were wishy-washy about calling him on it.

The AtE is where quadz08 complains about his wishy-washy play style. While it isn't exactly clear-cut, it is still there.

Also, as I'm assuming you're calling me wishy-washy about my AtE attack on quadz08, I'm not seeing it. I thought I made it pretty clear that I didn't like the AtE from him.

Here is your comment about quadz AtE;

Quadz08: Reading Quadz08 in ISO, #258

feels like

AtE. He admitting to having a problem with his play style instead of actually making a decent response to Poirot's case to him with Poirot made in #252.

Saying it "feels like AtE" is pretty much the definition of wishy-washy.

The vast majority of your day 2 play is characterised by: Attacking Vezo; attacking Tazaro; attacking vezo and Tazaro together. There is also a bandwagon analysis right at the beginning of the day which is decent, but indicative of intellect more than alignment.

To be honest, you did a lot less Day 2 then I did. All you really did Day 2 was attack diddin and attack Tazaro. If you want me to name off every single thing I did Day 2, I will.

I know you did more than me on day 2. I know I also targeted diddin and Tazaro, like you did. That would be most of the reason I didn't attack your day 2 play.

@q21: How come you were able to interact with the game more Day 1 then Day 2? I don't remember you announcing any sort of V/LA's Day 2.

I'm currently busy with my final Chemical Engineering Design Project at university. I haven't bothered to announce any V/LA because its difficult to predict when I will or won't be too busy to play mafia.

Unvote, Vote Sotty

Right now, lynching Sotty is more interesting that lynching SSBF. Or rereading Poirot.

[q21]

@q21:

Why are you voting sotty? You are giving no explanation whatsoever.

The explanation is simple, didn't think I had to spell it out. I agree with what Oso said. Now, in light of xvart's claim I am even happier with my vote right where it is.

I agree that massclaim of the remaining players should happen before the lynch and since I'd like to see this lynch go down sooner rather than later I'm a VT, and in all honesty I'm feeling a little left out in this game.

[q21]

Yes.

[q21]

Vote xvart

Maybe there's a jailkeeper

and

a doctor... but probably not.

[q21]

Vote xvart

Maybe there's a jailkeeper

and

a doctor... but probably not.

That's all? Good, consistent with your lurky play. Noted. You're trying to give town no information at all with your posts, right?

I need to check your voting record but I think you've been silently in every lynch waggon without much explanations.

Another thing I find funny is how you never mentioned protection roles before.

On other news, is SSBF scum to you? Connections with Sotty? Xvart?

Yes, I've been on every lynch wagon. quadz was a good Day 1 lynch. Tazaro deserved to die for his play. Sotty was scum.
No, I don't think I've mentioned the protection roles yet. That fact is, however, null as it doesn't contradict any of my previous play and it is a perfectly valid point all on its own. We have one confirmed protective role and one claimed one. Short of bastard modding (which should not happen in a mini normal) the not confirmed one is be scum.

[q21]

@q21: Ok. Let's assume xvart flips scum. Any ideas for a third partner? Now let's assume he is town. Same thing.

xvart flips scum the other scum is either vezok or SSBF
xvart flips town the scums are you and vezok/SSBF

[q21]

charter, the lyncher talk comes from the slightly unhinged aggression your slot has shown toward HP during the course of the game.

[q21]

@q21: Ok. Let's assume xvart flips scum. Any ideas for a third partner? Now let's assume he is town. Same thing.

xvart flips scum the other scum is either vezok or SSBF
xvart flips town the scums are you and vezok/SSBF

Why would Humble be scum if I flip town? If I was an outside observer and I flipped town doctor, I think that would validate Humble as town. And what are your justifications behind SSBF or Vezok being the other scum in both scenarios?

If you flip town then Humble's night action plan begins to look like the perfect plan to get both diddin (JK) and you (doctor) out of the game in the space of one night and one day. I gave reasons why I though SSBF was scum yesterday, his hesitancy around lynching Sotty doesn't help his case. Vezok is simply scummy and given that I feel Oso's is town vezok as the other half of a watcher/tracker pair is more likely to be scum.

Each day scummier, my friend. You still want to give no info?

Why? Give REASONS for your statements. Why did Vezok claim xvart actioned on me if he was his partner? Why is SSBF scum?
If you think SSBF is scum in almost every situation, why not vote him and manipulate watcher, doc and trackers actions?
How am I scum if xvart flips town? How am I scum with SSBf or vezok(And sotty)?

Each day less interested in what you think HP. And I don't have any actual information to give.
Why are you scum if xvart flips town? See above. Why is SSBF scum? See most of my posts yesterday. How much support would there be for lynching SSBF? Not enough when there is another lynch (xvart) I like just as much, if not more, that actually has a chance of going through.

[q21]

If you flip town then Humble's night action plan begins to look like the perfect plan to get both diddin (JK) and you (doctor) out of the game in the space of one night and one day.

Can you explain this plot to me? I'm not following you. When was this plot hatched and when would it be executed?

The night action plan HP proposed left diddin completely open to nightkill. Every other PR was protected in some way or another, either directly where the kill would have failed, or indirectly where the scum would be caught. No one raised any issues with this because diddin was scummy. Then diddin dies. Today xvart is in a crappy place if he's town because despite my substandard play and vezok's general scumminess - and even the fact that SSBF is from a game play perspective scummier - xvart is still among the best lynches.

That, of course, falls on its ass if xvart is scum, which I think more likely. Hence the location of my vote.

[q21]

Um... there's a vote count four posts um, HP.

[q21]

...meant to say 4 posts up...

[q21]

charter - I protected Oso last night.

SSBF - why did you wait so long to claim?

The fact that Vezok justifies a vote on Oso without including the fact that he is a claimed tracker is highly suspicious.

From my perspective,

confirmed not mafia players

include:
charter (this player slot has basically been ignored all game; why would he be trying to get involved if he was scum and could easily coast to end game?)
Humble (doc protected on N1, no kill N1, possible lynchee)
xvart (doctor, protected Humble N1, no NK N1)

Unconfirmed alignments:

vezok (watcher)
Oso (claimed tracker)
SSBF (claimed VT)
q21 (claimed VT)

We should lynch Vezok today. If he flips town (unlikely), Oso is scum, and gets lynched tomorrow in LYLO. Then we have to decide beteen q2t and SSBF for the remaining scum. Maybe I'll save someone again, which would then confirm another player (unless they target me and I don't protect myself). Or, I save Oso (pending Vezok scum flip) and he tracks either SSBF or q21 and we get a result or no result, then know who the remaining scum is.

Thoughts?

xvart.

xvart.

My problem reading this post and others dealing with this your 'plan' is that you don't seem to account for what happens if you die. As a town doctor that should be one of the fist things you consider. I get the idea of using Oso to choose between myself and SSBF if we got a vezok scumflip... but if that lynch doesn't hit scum... what then?

[q21]

He's already been hammered.

HP, xvart, SSBF, Oso.

[q21]

From Cell:
I'd like to hear people's suspicions before Oso reveals his target.

xvart, q21, SSBF.

I'll post tomorrow from a decent keyboard.

Why?

[q21]

Vote SSBF

Someone go find a hammer.

[q21]

VICTORY!

My apologies for the lurkiness... this game took place during my final year chemical engineering design project - hardest project of my life by a million miles. I started out behind and just never managed to get into the game.

I was right about SSBF, though, but wrong about xvart.