Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Game Over!)

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/confirm

Hopefully this goes better than last game.

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EBWOP: maybe I didn't see it in the rules, but is there talking during twilight?

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EBWOTP: my bad, just saw it in rule 8.

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Vote: Fugitive

Well stated.

Vote: Fugitive

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I'm not going to bother voting Jack. That's just TOO obvious. Plus, I highly doubt that his role PM didn't explain his role.

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EBWOP:

Total posts: 3849

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@MvK: I can answer that.

He's longing for RVS to be over.

Preview edit: hi pie!

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Also, scum's first instinct if they see someone who might be a traitor is not to vote for them.

@HC: yes, I think it's that obvious. For an experienced player to post something like that is very obvious. I don't think that anyone would actually believe that he was a traitor even if I hadn't posted that.

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vote:DemonHybrid

Quickest V/LA for 2 days ever.

Mod: can we have a vote count?

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sorry I haven't been able to post today. Been busy.

DH: I think he's neutral. I agree with esuriospiritus that he seems to be trying a little too hard to scumhunt, but I don't know how sure of a scumtell that is right now. it is day 1 after all.

TL: He's my scummiest read yet. I agree with everyone that he's overreacting. I also like how Pie comes closer to using meta in his case than DH does and he doesn't even mention it. FoS: TheLonging.

Pie: I don't like the wagon on him right now and have a bad feeling about some of the people on it. Same as DH in that he tries to scumhunt almost too hard, but not to as much of an extent.

Jack: neutral. No way to tell at this point. lol'ed at 169.

I don't have as solid of a read on anyone else right now.

Kov living in a different time zone noted. Is there anyone else that has a different time zone from most of us?

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TL, I know you have a bit of a temper/get a little carried away sometimes, but something about it this time seems... off.

That's closer to using meta than what DH did.

On DH, my bad, I misread what you said. I was going off of your "paint the portrait of a scummy person". It seems to me that he is taking small things and turning them into big scum-tells.

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Mostly DH for reasons I said before. I feel like most of your wagoning is for pressure, which is good (of course I could be wrong). I can't get a clear enough read on Fugitive or Jack's votes for very similar and obvious reasons. It's more of something I'm noting for later.

Late EBWOP: I meant 171 of Jack's posts that made me laugh.

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Day 1 is always bad for me. I usually cannot get a solid read on anyone because most cases are based on 1 thing that someone did. Therefore, I'm never confident in my reads and use a lot of FoS's instead of votes day 1 and overall don't come off as confident.

On the Pie wagon: I had remembered more people making a big deal out of little things and calling him scum. I had forgotten how Jack and Fugi had voted and how you seemed to have voted for pressure.

I just realised that I still had my RVS vote on. UNVOTE: Fugitive.

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Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

*headdesk*

FoS: DemonHybrid

@friend: He's my scummiest read, but none of my reads are solid enough for a vote right now.

Can someone give a case on Pie? I'm really not seeing it.

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12 pages and you don't have reads enough for a vote?

It's how I play on day 1. I never vote on day 1 unless I am pretty confident that someone is scum. You'll notice that, in the same way that I haven't called anyone scum and voted for them, I also have yet to call anyone town.

For the record, my FoS on DH is stronger than my FoS on TL.

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Right now, I think that one of {TL, pie, DH} is scum. Right now I'm leaning towards DH, but I'm not sure.

Also, Fugi's meta is very simple and can be tested. Townfugi dies night 1 and scumfugi doesn't.

Well what

would

you do with them?

I'm intrigued by the solid town read on Jack, DH.

I just have a good feeling about him. He's staying out of the way, yet contributing just enough to keep discussion going geared towards hunting scum. He seems to know what he's doing and has a plan, and although if you take his posts at face value and see them as anti-town, you'd be missing the point of his play. Also, none of these reads would be possible without him. I think he's doing exactly what a townie should do. Compared to Kov and r2r, who post when called out solely + making weak contributions and then melting away. They're afraid to challenge whereas Jack's been pretty ballsy with his logic challenges. Jack is fine this game. Those bothered by him are scummy/newtown.

1. Jack is much more experienced than me or, from the looks of it, Kov. I know that, at this point, I wouldn't have the guts to do what he did at the beginning of the game.

2. The reason I'm bothered by him is that there isn't any way to tell whether he is town or scum because he posts so little. You can't honestly tell me that you have a solid read on him at this point.

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1. Yes, it was a joke.
2. Generally, with experience comes confidence. When you're less experienced at something, you are slightly more hesitant to do something different because you're afraid that it might be way off base from what you're supposed to do and that people might be suspicious of you for it. That's what I meant by the fact that I didn't have the guts.

@TL: It won't be a main point in my case, it's just what I think based off of how much finger pointing is happening. I think that you all have done at least 1 thing that is scummy, so each of you has a point in your case. I'm not just saying that because "odds are that at least one of the top 3 suspicions of the town are scum" because I know that's not true.

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@DH: You missed my original point, which was that Jack is more experienced than I am, and is therefore more confident than I am. You took that to mean that I "have something to hide".

On your point, we had this debate in SHM3 with METALfootball, and I'm starting to agree with him to an extent. You people all seem to think that the town answer to a wagon is to not care about it, or that you should somehow not defend yourself against suspicions because "only scum care about getting lynched". I don't agree that town should prevent their lynch just as much as scum should, but I do agree that allowing a mislynch because it's the "town thing to do" is against your win condition.

@Friend: He seems to hop on the largest bandwagon and seems to be calling everyone scum.
Pie
me
Kov
Friend
TheLonging
esuriospiritus

It just seems like he's pointing fingers around for the sake of looking more pro-town.

...Oh, and this post:

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

As was said earlier on the page:

scum want town to end day 1 with as little information and reads as possible

He also says his scummiest read is Pie when (from the looks of it), all he did was voice his suspicion of Jack (something to note if DH flips scum, maybe they planned the whole RVS thing in the QT?).

I like my case on DH, so I'll go ahead and VOTE: DemonHybrid.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the case on Pie as I still don't see it.

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1.

@DH: You missed my original point, which was that Jack is more experienced than I am, and is therefore more confident than I am. You took that to mean that I "have something to hide".

2.

On your point, we had this debate in SHM3 with METALfootball, and I'm starting to agree with him to an extent. You people all seem to think that the town answer to a wagon is to not care about it, or that you should somehow not defend yourself against suspicions because "only scum care about getting lynched". I don't agree that town should prevent their lynch just as much as scum should, but I do agree that allowing a mislynch because it's the "town thing to do" is against your win condition.

3.

@Friend: He seems to hop on the largest bandwagon and seems to be calling everyone scum.
Pie
me
Kov
Friend
TheLonging
esuriospiritus

It just seems like he's pointing fingers around for the sake of looking more pro-town.

...Oh, and this post:

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

As was said earlier on the page:

scum want town to end day 1 with as little information and reads as possible

He also says his scummiest read is Pie when (from the looks of it), all he did was voice his suspicion of Jack (something to note if DH flips scum, maybe they planned the whole RVS thing in the QT?).

I like my case on DH, so I'll go ahead and VOTE: DemonHybrid.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the case on Pie as I still don't see it.

1. Woosh. Confidence has nothing to do with being town. You need confidence if you're scum because you have something to hide. So yes, you saying that you'd need more confidence before you start contributing looks scummy.

2. Metametametametametametametameta
meta

meta

I never said that one should allow themselves to be lynched if they're town. I said they shouldn't be -afraid- to be lynched. Not being afraid and being confident are two wildly different things. Not being afraid and not wanting to die are two different things. You guys are generalizing everything.

3. Cool, except that I never suspected esurio and I think Friend is town now. I never called Haschel scum, nor MvK. I said "I could see Twomz as being scum" and never said that I outwardly think that he is. I never thought Fugi was scum, just neutral. Me calling Jack scummy was at the beginning of D1 an*INSERT DEAD HORSE BEATING HERE*

Also, I never voted TL, so I can't see how I hopped on that bandwagon. I was the first to vote Friend (and the only one if I recall). The only one to vote Kov. I voted for Pie after I was absolutely sure that I felt that he was scum.

Insert Credit to continue.

1. I don't mean that I'm not confident enough to contribute, I mean that I'm not confident enough to pull off a gambit like Jack did.

2. What does that have to do with meta? I said nothing about your playstyle. I don't even remember if you were in that conversation. Me mentioning a previous game does not make it meta and therefore useless. This has to do with gameplay in general.

I'm not afraid of getting lynched, I just don't think that it would benefit the town right now. I don't know where you got that I was afraid of getting lynched to begin with.

By the way, "You guys are generalizing everything" is in itself a generalization.

3. "calling everyone scum" was a hyperbole. I still think my point is somewhat valid. However, I will take back 2 things on this:
1. esurio: I thought you were one of the people suspicious of him for finding Pie town. My bad.
2. I thought you had voted TL. You sure call him scum a lot.

*digs in pockets*
aww man, I'm out of quarters

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EBWOP: I think I may have figured out my problem on day 1.

I seem to get better reads on someone by interacting with them, and I don't post enough on day 1. Therefore I can't get good enough reads on people on day 1 because I don't interact with people enough. I'll keep this in mind in future games.

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I didn't say it was. I was just saying that he seems to be suspecting people for the sake of suspecting them and looking more pro town.

That's not all my case is based on either. Way to only read half of my post.

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Huh. I like ortiz's case on Twomz. He's lurking because Jack is, allegedly, but that certainly doesn't make it okay (for either of them). Twomz appears to be of the opinion that it's okay for him as long as he's admitting that he's lurking. ??

TL's defense wasn't particularly convincing to me, though. Vote stays where it is. :<

Nope, don't care if people attack me for it as long as they attack Jack for it as well.

Jack is V/LA (I think he's actually V/LA this time).

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I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself? Worked pretty well, didn't it?

Yeah it did. Voting for someone else intentionally just to get someone to be suspicious of you in a way that you can call scummy? What kind of crazy person would pull such a gambit.

Congrats Kov, you got DH to contradict himself twice.

@DH: While you're at it, do you want to reply to the rest of that post where I voted you a few pages back?

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EBWOP: quote fail

I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself? Worked pretty well, didn't it?

Yeah it did. Voting for someone else intentionally just to get someone to be suspicious of you in a way that you can call scummy? What kind of crazy person would pull such a gambit.

Congrats Kov, you got DH to contradict himself twice.

@DH: While you're at it, do you want to reply to the rest of that post where I voted you a few pages back?

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@ortiz: thank you far better stating what I was trying to say earlier about DH posting suspicions of everyone just to be suspicious of them and seem more pro-town.

I think Twornz is suspicious but I like my read on DH better and I think that DH is a much bigger threat.

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What is it with people and L-1? L-1 isn't the only time to claim/hold off on voting and wait for a defense/defend yourself more.

(see: D1 of SHM3)

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@ortiz: kind of like what I said 2 pages ago?

I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself? Worked pretty well, didn't it?

Yeah it did. Voting for someone else intentionally just to get someone to be suspicious of you in a way that you can call scummy? What kind of crazy person would pull such a gambit.

Congrats Kov, you got DH to contradict himself twice.

@DH: While you're at it, do you want to reply to the rest of that post where I voted you a few pages back?

Thanks for ignoring me DH. I really appreciate it.

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@DH: Please finish replying to my post. Escpecially this part.

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

This is the most anti-town post all game and what caused me to really be suspicious of you in the first place.

On Kov: If I'm understanding him right, he was never really suspicious of TL. He voted for a large bandwagon just to get you to contradict yourself because you found Jack's wagoning OK and his wagoning not OK.

Shorter version of above: it has NOTHING to do with TheLonging.

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EBWOP: it's also the fact that you pulled a gambit early in the game and got frustrated with people who didn't believe you, then found someone else to be scum because they pulled a very similar gambit. I made a post about it earlier. It's nearer the top of the page.

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DH: Here's my problem:

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

I completely disagree with this. Kov's reason was to make you contradict yourself. I have yet to see Jack's reasoning for voting Pie. You've been defending Jack all game, you should be able to point out his reasoning for voting Pie.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

The first time you posted this, I wasn't going to use it against you, because I thought you were just misguided. I'll try to explain it for you.

Lynching for information is TERRIBLE for town. We (Me/Fugi) used that in SHM3 to finish wagons on townies when they were almost lynched but people were afraid to finish the wagon. (Note: We were scum) "Lynching for information" is what you say when your case isn't strong enough by itself so you throw that in there at the end. Trust me, I've done it a million times. You saw what happened when townies actually listened to that crap.

Question for you:

What's the case on Pie? Last thing I saw about him being scum was his suggestion of a policy lynch of Jack? I swear I've seen it asked a hundred times and I haven't seen a solid case posted. Linking me to an already written post is fine.

It was also the fact that you implied that you wanted him lynched (I believe) within the next 24 hours. I can even sort of understand lynching for information, especially since you gave examples of said information (although I think we never get the info from a lynch that we think we will), it's the fact that we will get WAY more information from letting the day play out, and you wanting to get the day over as quickly as possible is anti-town.

Good luck on getting the case on Pie. I've been asking for it since page 12.

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EBWOP: it's also the fact that you pulled a gambit early in the game and got frustrated with people who didn't believe you, then found someone else to be scum because they pulled a very similar gambit. I made a post about it earlier. It's nearer the top of the page.

Reading comprehension....

Like I said: A few people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe Kov's.

I'm talking about post 480. Try reading that.

Mod: vote totals please

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He was V/LA for 24 more hours. You suggesting to just lynch with the info we had implies to me that you wanted him lynched before he came back (within the next 24 hours).

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He was V/LA for 24 more hours. You suggesting to just lynch with the info we had implies to me that you wanted him lynched before he came back (within the next 24 hours).

That's why I mentioned the option of waiting for a claim instead of saying "Let's just lynch pie without a claim".

With your EBWOP, you seemed to be pushing for the lynch to happen sooner rather than later.

Gonna go read your case on pie now.

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With the number of times he's brought it up, he's beating beating a dead horse

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At least you don't have a post restriction.

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I'll say it again: a flip NEVER gives you as much info as you think it will. The only time last game where we actually caught scum from a flip was Mitch, and I don't think anyone will be that stupid this game.

By the way, you'll never convince me that that post was town, even if (a big IF) you flip town.

I don't like that last part either, but I don't see it as a scumtell.

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I think Parama is using Fugi's account.

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[3] InflatablePie: Jack, Fugitive, TheLonging [L-5]
[3] DemonHybrid: ready2rock, ortiz1193, InflatablePie [L-3]

...

@Kov: post 535 is HC's reasoning (from looking at him in iso), but I agree with you that I don't like esuriospiritus' reasoning at all. If you don't have a solid read on someone, don't vote for them. Don't base your decision only on who other people are voting for.

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I'm not sure whether I like a Twonz lynch right now. I don't have a very solid read on him at this point, I think we have bigger fish to fry, and his lynch won't give us much information at all.

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@Friend: By "bigger fish to fry", I meant that he has the least impact on people in the game, as he has done almost nothing.

@ortiz: Nice catch. I'm still calling a DH/Jack scumteam if one of them flip scum.

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Just so you know TL, it you change your vote to DH and no one else changes their vote, DH will be lynched at deadline.

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@Kov, Twornz: If a Jack lynch won't happen today, who else are you suspicious of?

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According to the clock on my computer, the deadline is exactly 53 hours from now.

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This is getting complicated.

Preview edit: even more complicated...

I actually think that the best lynch at this point is one of the claimed neighbors. I think you know which one I want to lynch.

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while being half of the game amirite

He's made -some- good points. He's had a LOT of heat on him, you have to admit, and with everyone picking apart everything that he says, he did pretty well in a defense.

You, of all people, should know how frustrating it can be.

Don't completely clear him. He plays good scum.

On that subject, don't completely clear anybody.

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Can someone please explain to me why Parama is using Fugitive's account this game?

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I like my vote too, but I really don't like how Fugitive refuses to explain anything he does.

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EBWOP: it frustrates me.

Too much going on at once.

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I said I founhd it frustrating, I never said I found it scummy.

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OK, I thought you were incorrectly mocking my reasoning. Fair enough.

That's 6 votes for the deadline extension

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What about MvK's play? He seemed pretty town to me.

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lol at DH not replying to ortiz's entire post because he doesn't have a case.

lol at DH thinking ortiz is scum because he disagrees with his read on me.

Preview edit @ortiz: the game I played in with neighbors had 2 town and 1 SK, IIRC

@Fugi: we don't need any more claims on day 1.

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What about the part about him having a better read on Jack now?

What about the part about TL softclaiming a PR and not wanting to out it?

etc.

You basically ignored the rest of his post except the last part.

I never said is was all about me. I just found that part of your case funny because being wrong is a scumtell as much as being right is a town-tell.

People voting for you all game=me.

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I post when I have something to say, not when I have to say something.

Did you READ Ortiz's reply to you?

Also, by your logic, you're making a deflection.

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Ortiz, I expect every post from now on to have an up-to-the-minute status of your read on Jack.

His first reply to you, a few paragraphs on the last page. You can't miss it.

I meant your "deflection" on me.

Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Day 1)1 ... 36, 37, 38
Mini 999 - Isolated Mafia (Game Over)1 ... 17, 18, 19

I'm starting to see you in a better light.

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Why I put "deflection" in quotes. It was like my "deflection" in *ongoing game*

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Sorry. Still a little unhappy about it.

ANYWAY, you still haven't responded to the whole of ortiz's reply to you.

...the one I've accused you of not replying to in whole 3 times.

...Post 913.

Also, still waiting for Friend's thoughts on all of this.

AND waiting for Twornz to say exactly what have him a better read on Jack.

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EBWOP: what made him have a better read on Jack.

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@DH: My first mafia game on here had a 42 page day 1.

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holy overreaction.

I'm not even sure Jack meant that in a negative way.

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The difference is that this has lasted 2 weeks.

I'm not sure that Jack is twisting words though, and I don't think others have either.

inb4 you angrily disagrees with me.

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Still confused

Now that you find Jack town, you can't lurk anymore because you don't have an excuse.

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I want to hear esurio's thoughts on this before I post my thoughts, particularly about the possibility of and all-town neighborhood.

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@ortiz: his last post is on page 26, 8 days ago.

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Oh, I forgot to mention:

FoS: everyone on scorehero in this game. They all know Fugi always dies N1 and wanted to continue the tradition.

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With what both of the neighbors have said about the other being town reduces the chances slightly of one of them being scum, but we can't rule it out. If one of them is scum, I could very much see the motivation in saying that they're town and not to go after them. It would definitely put the target off their back.

That said, I'm calling it about a 50/50 chance of one of them being scum (much less than what I thought yesterday).

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@Pie: my point in that last sentence is that at the end of day 1, I was almost certain that one of them was scum. Now that DH has flipped town and each of the neighbors think the other town, those chances have gone down for me.

@TL: Why are you voting Kov? He's getting replaced.

[ready2rock]

Isn't there a thread in the queue for this purpose?

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/prod

From what I know of this mod, I highly doubt he would put a jester in the game.

Friend has done way more than me.

@TL: Why me? (granted, I didn't look at your last few post, so if you posted reasons before, just let me know what post it was.

My family is over right now, so I probably won't post again until tonight.

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@Sebguer: I thought someone might point that out when I posted it. Let me explain it further.

Scum's first instinct (assuming that there was a traitor) would be to not vote for them because they want to have the traitor on their side and not lynched (obv). After they thought about it a while though, they would either A) vote for him to appear more town or B) not vote for him and come up with a better reason to not vote.

Town's first instinct is to vote for them because "lol confirmed scum". After looking at it a little while and seeing that he is an experienced player, however, they would most likely hold off on a vote because (like I said) it's just too obvious for an experienced player to do.

I think that that post was in reply to someone else's thoughts on what scum's first instinct is in that situation

...or maybe I'm just way off here. I still think that scum are more likely to not vote than to vote, but are not more likely to not vote than town are. Does that make sense?

I'll read Twornz in ISO and see what I think about a wagon on him.

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Notes on Twornz:
Doesn't understand Jack's gambit
AtE to Pie
Wants to hammer at the end of the day (I don't like this at all. I can see scum's motivation (allows him to bus without looking suspicious, and not hammer if he flips town), but I really can't see a town motivation for doing this)
Is suspicious of Jack (this helps what he did the rest of the day make sense, but doesn't excuse it). Case is so-so.
Says he doesn't like planned lynches (I like this post)
Using what others are doing to excuse what he's doing (I don't like this)
Keeps bringing up claiming (almost as if he's daring us to ask him to claim)
Joins the DH wagon
Sees Jack in a better light because of his comment on how many pages the game is (???)
Talks about the possibility of neighbors being scum (I think I asked him this and I liked his response)

if anyone needs a post number for any of these let me know.

In the end, I think that Twornz is neutral-scummy, which is a better read than I have on anyone else, and I think a wagon on him would be good right now (at the very least, he might actually post something).

UNVOTE: if I had a vote
VOTE: Twornz

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AtE: it just seemed like you were trying to say that you were someone that played similar to him to please him and make him suspect you less. I could see those posts coming from town or scum though.

The day was dragging out on page 9? That's when you first brought up hammering to end the day.

I don't think Jack has posted that much more today, and if he has, it's only because he isn't on V/LA.

I know what you were trying to do with your active lurking, but it wasn't the only time you did that.

"So, I'll just wait for a bandwagon to build and then hammer to end the day. No one really seems to care that much."

Lot's of game theory posts instead of content posts.

Par for the course Day 1 sadly .

Implying that because no one else is doing much, you don't need to do much either.

On claims: "If y'all get something better than 'man, twomz is scummy, let's wagon him' I might be tempted to claim." ~ post 632
"I wonder if a claim from me would nail DH into a coffin or not?" ~ post 848.

m looks a lot like rn. He called me ready2roll.

[ready2rock]

UNVOTE: Twornz
VOTE: Twomz

[ready2rock]

-I'm not saying that comparing you this game to how you usually play day 1 is scummy. I did that myself day 1 and am in the same boat as you in that situation. You seemed to not want to try because no one else is trying, which is like a child saying "he started it".
-A claim is not the only reason to wagon. It's not the reason I joined your wagon.

[ready2rock]

Not unless you post a really good case, especially since he claimed tracker.

[ready2rock]

Don't forget that we can still talk during twilight.

After his replies, he's still neutral-scum in my eyes, so we'll see what he flips.

[ready2rock]

Oh hey it's a new day!

*reads*

[ready2rock]

VT here.

@ortiz: What made you think I was town? Was it meta?

[ready2rock]

ortiz, what made you think I was town?

@DH: I wasn't quite sure what you were saying D1 and Fugi posted NO reasoning.

Any tips on being better as town (since I haven't ever gotten scum)?

[ready2rock]

OK, I thought that you had read me as town before you replaced in or something.

Everything is much more obvious when you know the setup

ortiz: can you explain exactly how you slipped? Maybe having it explained in a different way will help me see it.

Lesson learned in this game: don't ever trust ortiz again.

[ready2rock]

OK got it. Thanks ortiz.

I really need to work on getting better scumreads. I guess I don't have the right mentality when I'm scumhunting.