Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Game Over!)

[InflatablePie]

Vote: Friend

1) Player A claims mafia, setting a trap for someone to vote him.
2) Player B falls for it and votes Player A.

Anyone could see that's what Jack was doing. So technically, the one jumping on an easy target is, in fact, Friend: the person voting for Player B.

---

Now's the time to mention to the other players that many of us know each other from another place. Hello Fugi, r2r, Demon, MvK and TL. And soras.

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FoS: r2r

for answering another player's questions.

[InflatablePie]

Vote: Friend

1) Player A claims mafia, setting a trap for someone to vote him.
2) Player B falls for it and votes Player A.

Anyone could see that's what Jack was doing. So technically, the one jumping on an easy target is, in fact, Friend: the person voting for Player B.

Let's think about this. If anyone could see what Jack was doing, shouldn't DemonHybrid be considered scummy for voting Jack in the first place? I don't know if DH is experience enough to recognize gambits and other such plays, so Jack would be

his

easy target.

I figured DH would see how obvious Jack was being, so I didn't think of this. I see where you're coming from, but I think Friend is more opportunistic.

[InflatablePie]

Is it just me, or are the quote boxes... different?

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I figured DH would see how obvious Jack was being, so I didn't think of this. I see where you're coming from, but I think Friend is more opportunistic.

So, you're fine with DH voting Jack, but not fine with Friend voting for DH using the exact logic that you gave for voting Friend?

This is getting confusing.

I don't find DH voting Jack scummy.
I find Friend jumping onto an easy target scummy.

It may be similar logic, but it has to do with timing as well.

[InflatablePie]

It's too obvious for scum to say "Hey, let me jump on someone who claimed Traitor and throw myself out into the open!"

Yet someone voting the person falling for an obvious trap... that's more scummy in my eyes.

[InflatablePie]

It's too obvious for scum to say "Hey, let me jump on someone who claimed Traitor and throw myself out into the open!"

This is WIFOM, really. Have you played any games with Demon?

Actually, yes, one which just finished. About 6 of us know each other from another site, where this game was held.

Demon's not this stupid.

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Does that make sense to anybody else?

Kind of, but I woke up an hour and a half ago so I'm still a little "ehh".

Also, revelation.

Unvote

. I know I usually go on about having votes down especially early game, but real vote TBD.

[InflatablePie]

And

FoS: TL[

for answering my question back there. Stop that.

[InflatablePie]

...seriously?



Well, I can't decide between DH and Friend. Friend is still seeming a bit odd, but DH is now saying he knew jack was being stupid the entire time (aka "nice cover!") and countervotes look a bit odd too.

hrm

I reject these two candidates and substitute my own!

Vote: Twomz

No other thoughts?

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k

Unvote

Vote: DemonHybrid

I can't tell if Fugi is still RVSing or not.

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I can't tell if Demon is being sarcastic or not.

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Or yours is off. I like to think I'm on the right track.

At the very least (out of all of your guesses), can you explain why you think DH, the person I'm voting, is town?

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... but you won't, I'm guessing.

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v/la for 2 days

vote:DemonHybrid

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It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Still want to hear from Twomz, as this debate will probably keep going for a while and I think he should offer his thoughts on it now instead of "waiting till it's over". Since he only answers questions directed at him: Twomz, what are your thoughts on DH vs Friend?

Preview edit: 3 new posts in the time I took to write this up? For the love of Cthulu...

[InflatablePie]

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Oh no, I used you as an example!

I don't suspect you at all. Read again: "Going by your (Friend's) logic, I'm surprised that you aren't keeping an eye on IP"

So...hmmmmm.

I must have misread in that case. Sounded like you were trying to say, "hey look IP's doing *blah* but you never mentioned him; why aren't you suspicious of him but you're suspicious of me" the way it was worded.

You mentioned you "could have gone after [me] there" in that post as well. Elaborate? And go ahead and define interesting while you're at it.

[InflatablePie]

Can't decide where to stick my vote... so I'll

Vote: Jack

for bad play for now.

I forgot to

fos:twomz

last night.

[InflatablePie]

Jack, I can't tell if you're:

- trolling
- actually scum
- town reaction testing

...but at this point, it's starting to get on my nerves for some reason.

[InflatablePie]

TL, I know you have a bit of a temper/get a little carried away sometimes, but something about it this time seems... off.

Did anyone else notice this besides Friend? In the post where TL puts Demon at L-2:

I'm not giving out my town reads, but I would like to nominate DemonHybrid for scum godfather. Will you be willing to bet that? I would, at the most.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this? I do.

He "elaborates" here:

I don't know, just at best (maybe he's scum trying to play bad so that if he doesn't get lynched today, when he gets investigated (if there is such a role) he'll turn up innocent and people will be less suspicious of him?). I am strongly of the belief he is scum, but maybe godfather (Hey I've seen that type of play before) or regular goon?

...and starts discussing the possibilities of goons and 'scanners' (cop, etc.). Dunno bout you guys, but this kind of setup speculation early D1 = scummy to me. Possible rolefishing mentioning a cop and only mafia know for sure what roles they have.

Unvote, Vote: TL

Then there's him casting suspicion on anyone that suspects him, such as Jack (who I wouldn't mind a lynch of either at this point) or esurio, which doesn't make him seem any more townie.

Demon, you might as well admit now that you didn't try and make a gambit of your own by "falling" for Jack's gambit.

However, my feelings on you are sliightly improving.

Why did you pick Kov over your other scum picks?

I'd like to see if his inexperience shines through. I know TL and IP from past games...I'd much rather target the weak link.

Protip: Voting for pressure doesn't work when you reveal you're voting for pressure, y'know.

[InflatablePie]

IP, what is your case on Jack?

He's just playing extremely anti-town, although obviously, and at this point if he's going to barely contribute while being blatantly anti-town, I think a policy lynch is in order.

[InflatablePie]

So if someone's being anti-town on purpose and not contributing to discussion at all, essentially active lurking... we're just going to ignore him and let him continue doing so? Instead of lynching this person, who is acting scummy? Makes perfect sense.

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Okay, I could understand the traitor reaction test thing, but at this point I'm not seeing much (if any) content coming from Jack at all, just blatant active lurking. People have brought up that he's acting suspicious and he's continued to do so.

He started the discussion, yes. So what? I've started discussion before as both town and scum; it doesn't mean a single thing. Starting discussion =/= contributing to it.

[InflatablePie]

He started the discussion, yes. So what? I've started discussion before as both town and scum; it doesn't mean a single thing. Starting discussion =/= contributing to it.

Have you contributed to discussions as both town and scum?

Your purported western-centric ethos is scummy btw.

Yes, I have. To my knowledge.

Can you rephrase this; I honestly have no idea what you mean.


If you notice, my vote is on TL. I don't like his overdefensiveness and his Godfather/setup speculation comment. I simply said that I wouldn't mind a lynch of Jack, but apparently I'm getting no support (HURR). I would rather have a TL lynch ATM. Now, I just finished a large game where so many people lurked, scum and town alike, and I think people need to start adding content and I am seeing damn near nothing from Jack. Why in the hell does everyone think he's so obvtown all of a sudden? Because he claimed traitor?

P.S. - Funny how I'm the only one suspicious of Jack that he hasn't counter-voted/FoS'd, though.

[InflatablePie]

P.S. - Funny how I'm the only one suspicious of Jack that he hasn't counter-voted/FoS'd, though.

Jack Post #4 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:38 am
unvote, vote:Inflatable Pie

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

Yeah, Pie is definitely scum. Those reactions to the forming bandwagon were scummy as hell.

I'm starting to get agitated with people who don't listen to reason. Or who don't think active lurking is scummy.

[InflatablePie]

*sigh*

[InflatablePie]

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

So why is it funny that I didn't "counter-fos" you?

Because you've done it to practically everyone else in this game that's been suspicious of you... except me. It's... funny.

[InflatablePie]

Oh, he never changed his vote. Wow.

Well, that explains that.

[InflatablePie]

Consider me V/LA till Monday. Working double shifts tomorrow and Sunday, probably won't have time to post.

[InflatablePie]

Everyone give a yay or nay on lynching pie please.

... Nay?

So, I'll just wait for a bandwagon to build and then hammer to end the day. No one really seems to care that much.

This is a joke or something, right? Making sure.

Which people on the wagon do you have a bad feeling about?

Can I answer this? Jack, obviously, and Fugitive. They're both holding back their views and not really saying much. Gives me odd vibes at the least; especially with Fugitive as I've been in many games with him and have never seen him play like that.

Going to sleep. Consider my

48-hour V/LA (@Mod)

in effect.

[InflatablePie]

Posting during my V/LA because I woke up early. I still work from 12 - 10 PM Eastern (roughly) and I'm running on three hours of sleep, so I don't know about posting later tonight, but we'll see.

especially with Fugitive as I've been in many games with him and have never seen him play like that.

Unless you've been in games with him where he was scum and he was like this, it's not a tell. And even then, I wouldn't call it a sure thing, as people's metas can change.

It's not quite a tell, but he is acting strange. The last few games I've been in with him, he has either been extremely helpful and talkative (large game, about 20+ people) or has been kind of scummy via tunneling on people (11 or less player games) as town. This time, he's giving off random reads while slightly tunneling on me. I don't recall seeing Fugi saying X is town/scum without giving SOME SORT of explanation. He's not quite scummy yet, just... weird.

@Pie: Do you find what Jack and Fugitive are doing scummy inherently? Why or why not?

Jack's being anti-town on purpose. I think this is scummy. I have said this before. Fugi is more of a nulltell I admit, but weird to me (see: above).

EBWOP: OH, Pie lying about my meta noted also. He's definitely scum.

I'm not lying about your meta. As scum in SHM3 (ScoreHero [.com] Mafia 3, for the rest of you), you were talkative and manipulated the town into selfdestruction. As town, you acted like Parama and tunneled certain or made crazy gambits/softclaims. This is a slightly different Fugi than I am used to, in both cases. I don't remember your actions in Furry offhand, as I know I personally act a little different on here than the games we usually play together, so I can't comment on that.

Unvote

Vote: InflatablePie

.

Do I need to explain how this is a bad vote? Comes with seemingly no reasoning other than to jump on a wagon. Keep in mind that I find TL suspicious already and even have a vote on him.

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1).

This is terrible logic as well. It's okay to lynch townies, guys, it's just D1 and statisctically happens anyway! No. Just... no.


I can confirm that r2r plays cautiously as town, if my memory serves correct. I do not have any memory of finished games where r2r has been scum though, so I can't compare meta in this case. Not that meta always works anyways.


So far, there seems to be two groups of players here. Those for my lynch and those against my lynch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the two groups:

For:
1. DemonHybrid
2. Fugitive
3. TheLonging
6. Jack
10. Friend

Against:
5. Twomz
7. Kov
9. ManfredvonKarma
11. ready2rock
12. esuriospiritus

Not counting myself, of course. It's funny, because it's an even split. I'd like to note here that Fugi suspects Twomz/r2r (finding esurio misguided) for "defending" me/being opposed to my lynch, but does not comment on Kov or MvK at all. Kov in particular stands out to me, because he's used odd logic when talking about how he's opposed to my lynch, yet Fugi hasn't commented on him at all.

Oh, and:

@Mod: Please prod Haschel Cedricson.

He hasn't posted since RVS.

[InflatablePie]

Top 5 suspects: TL, Jack, Kov, Fugitive, r2r.

TL for that setup speculation and overdefensiveness.
Jack for being purposely anti-town. I realize that he has been posting slightly better since his vote has been on me, although some of his posts still just read odd to me.
Kov for his fencesitting-ish post about me way back there.
Fugitive simply for having a different attitude this game, to be honest. Definitely not high up on my scumlist, but I'm keeping an eye out.
r2r is just a gut feeling / process of elimination from some people I find to be leaning town ATM.

That order sounds about right.

[InflatablePie]

You asked me to provide a top 5, when I only have 3 or so solid suspects at this time... and then proceed to tear me apart for doing so. I can't say I didn't see this coming.

Pie: DH isn't on that scumlist

Because he's not one of my suspects.

If you want to do the meta dance, then we can do the meta dance, just so I can put you in your place regarding meta. In my experience with Fugitive (skimming games that he's been in and playing with him), short, sarcastic and blunt responses means he has nothing to defend. He's been town in the games that I've seen when he's done this. When he posts very long, helpful, involved responses, he's been scum. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Fugitive.

This means ABSOLUTELY nothing regarding this game. He's neutral-town to me, emphasis on the neutral. Past games should mean -nothing-, if very little (like extremely obvious confirmed scum tells).

I agree with Fugi being helpful as scum. He's also helpful as town, as I do remember a few walls of texts and long arguments with one user in Furry mafia.

Regarding this game, Fugi mostly gives off reads with little to no explanation, which is the part that's bugging me. All but (about) four of his posts before he voted me have been "Pie is scum" - look at him in ISO. He's turning tunnel-visioned.

Pretty much spot on. The fact that Pie has used meta against me as a reason for suspicion,

placing me in this top 5 scum candidates should probably qualify for a policy lynch right there

. Policy aside, he's likely scum, so he needs to be noosed up now.

Friend's reads are pretty much correct. Though I would change the placement of 3 people.

I say your meta seems different so I'm keeping an eye on you, and this qualifies for a policy lynch? Wow, Fugi.

Those bothered by [Jack] are scummy/newtown.

I'm neither, so you're gonna have to explain yourself here. If not now, remember to do it postgame.

[InflatablePie]

For the record, I want TL lynched before Jack, for sure.

Top 5 suspects: TL, Jack, Kov, Fugitive, r2r.

Kov for his fencesitting-ish post about me way back there.

Wow, what?

Where did this come from? It sounds rather familiar.

All of a sudden after so long, Kov is a suspect for the same reason I suspect him for (and after no one else said anything about him)

I mentioned here I was finding Kov odd. Does no one read my posts? Oh, and Demon, it's not always scummy to agree with someone, depending on the situation. If someone's mimicking everyone else for a long period of time and contributes no original thoughts, then that's scummy. I noticed his post and pointed it out accordingly.

@IP:So why do you think I'm scum because I took a neutral stance? since when was that a scum tell?

When you sit on the fence about an issue/discussion in mafia, it makes it seem like you're scum waiting to see which side is the better one to take. You can then go back and cite that post as evidence for either side. Neutral stance =/= fencesitting - the former can be taken by townies, but when you both cast suspicion and defend the same person in the same post, that's scummy.

[InflatablePie]

Vote: Fugitive

This is not an RVS vote. He's really dangerous as scum. We should all keep an eye on him..

Maybe I'm missing the obvious sarcasm/joke in "this is not an RVS vote", but this is crap logic.

I don't know, just at best (maybe he's scum trying to play bad so that if he doesn't get lynched today, when he gets investigated (if there is such a role) he'll turn up innocent and people will be less suspicious of him?). I am strongly of the belief he is scum, but maybe godfather (Hey I've seen that type of play before) or regular goon?

I have already explained why this setup speculation is scummy.

is that an omgus fos on me jack? I love you too, just don't let your ego get in the way, kinda like when I pinpointed you and Soc as scum in that marathon game

*Jack FoSes everyone*

oicwutudidthar

You just can't provide reasoning for your FoS... hell you haven't done that for any other vote/fos. Oh well.

Casting suspicion back on Jack because Jack FoSed him.

esii (that's what I am calling you now) says I am mjaorly overreacting, he agrees with people, yet only uses a FoS. hmmmmmmmm. Do you find DH more scummy than I now?

Unless I'm reading this the wrong way, he does this to esurio here as well.

Pie is scummy when he acts pro-town. That's his meta. He's also town when he acts pro-town.

Unvote

Vote: InflatablePie

L-2, Pie claim, someone lynch already! Too bad the wagon switched to Pie though, I was ready to claim.[/quote]

- This is fencesitting, too. Why even mention this? It's a useless statement.
- Already said this is a bad vote.
- The last part confuses me, but TL coming in out of nowhere and trying to rush my lynch is scummy as all hell.

I joined the BW because I thought it would be fun *snip* BTW if Pie flips scum, r2r goes tomorrow. If Pie flips town, DH goes tomorrow.

This not only confirms TL is blatantly bandwagoning, but he also tried setting up lynches - not always scummy, but definitely not pro-town. Bravo.

What he did at the beginning of D1. He obviously is more pro-town now than he ever was before, but scum who turn pro-town are still scum, is he not? There's uh, pretty much whole cases back there.

>whole cases
>beginning of D1

[InflatablePie]

Whew. I think I'm done.

Any questions?

[InflatablePie]

EBWOP just in case:

Unvote, Vote: TheLonging

Yeah, my tags broke. I'm not voting myself.

[InflatablePie]

Demon: Okay, so Kov is lurky and fencesitting. We agree on this. I don't get why it's so bad that I agree with you on something. Especially since Kov hasn't made a ton of posts either, so it's hard to offer original views. There are people on my wagon who have gone along with views of the others, do you suspect them a bit?

Post 347: TL admits to using "he's good as scum so let's lynch him" logic (I forget the fallacy name here). Also, that We Made You parody made ME feel embarrassed. =/

355: blatant bandwagon admission again, as well as overreacting (dur). Can't we lynch him up?


Everyone on my wagon should restate their reasons for voting me, so I can clear some things up. Please?

[InflatablePie]

Fugi: Pretend that I'm not in this game for just one post (ex. don't use "connections" to me as reasoning). Who are your other top suspects?

[InflatablePie]

Everyone on my wagon should restate their reasons for voting me, so I can clear some things up. Please?

[InflatablePie]

@Friend

- Like I said, Fugi is not high up on my scumlist, I just have leaning townreads on many of the players and only a few scumreads. I've noted that I'm just keeping an eye on him for now.

- The main reasons why I think TL is scummy is for the overreacting, blatant bandwagoning (in this case is scummy, although I concede it can be a nulltell) and that weird godfather comment. Some of my lesser reasons might seem like a bit of a stretch, but my case makes sense to me.

- I suppose policy lynch was a little harsh or bad choice of words. Either way, I don't think Jack is town right now, so I don't think I am taking this "risk of Jack flipping town". There's a bit of a difference in my eyes for wanting to lynch a player that's being blatantly anti-town and someone outright saying it's okay to lynch townies on D1.

[InflatablePie]

I'm posting on no sleep. ^5

Haschel, what do you mean TL's godfather comment is "an act of subtle powerrole direction"? I don't understand this part, although note that I do appreciate your support on the TL wagon.

[InflatablePie]

I'm so glad I have the next two days off (work). Sooooooo very tired.

Quick skim: Glad to see oritz is here and being active. He makes good points about a Twomz wagon, but I don't feel like joining it right now; still have some gut townie vibes from him plus there's bigger fish to fry and whatnot. Kov's vote looks odd, to say the least and he's jumped up a few places on my scumdar. TL's defense doesn't really persuade me much either though, so my vote stays. oritz gave a better comment on the "TL talking about GF = PR direction" thing that Haschel did, even if it's a bit of a stretch imo.

I think that covers most of what's been posted.

[InflatablePie]

Unvote, Vote: Kov

Yeah, his TL vote and the post after it are odd, and I'm getting scummier vibes from his latest post (deflection, plus the last two sentences are just... what?). I'm okay with this.

[InflatablePie]

EBWOP: Especially with the switch to Jack after he gets flak for his TL vote, or so it seems.

Also, did you guys know that TL was at L-1, not L-2 earlier? Yeah, me neither.

[InflatablePie]

Meanwhile, Kov is now at L-2. /triplepost

[InflatablePie]

I fail at math. Keep thinking it's 6 to lynch for some reason. D:

[InflatablePie]

Kov is actually making sense now. It took me a minute, but I understand what he's getting at.

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

By the way, Jack had a reason for voting me? Is that what you're saying? Because I've read him in ISO and I can't see a post where he's given reasoning at all. Well, there's one where he says something of mine is scummy, but I honestly don't know what he's saying in that post, so... yeah.

Just saying, every time I check the thread I think how funny it would be to toss a hammer if someone gets to L-1. Take that into consideration when waiting til there to claim .

I don't get it. Explain the joke.

Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process.

That said,

FoS Twomz

. (b' ')b

[InflatablePie]

So many walls, I'll read through them over the course of the next hour or two.

Friend had a case on me here for whoever asked. Can't speak for the others.

Preview Edit: Add another 20 or so on to that timer...
Preview Edit Again?: you postwhore :<

[InflatablePie]

Sigh DH... I THINK you know what I'm talking about, you're just not making the connection. I'm not going to waste further time.

FoS: DemonHybrid, InflatablePie

Do we have a scumteam here? 2/3 I bet

WAIT

DH WAGON IS FINALLY TAKING OFF?

FUCK YES BEST THING EVER <33333

*snip*

PIE IS THE LEAST SCUMMY OF MY TOP 5 SCUM READS. *snip*

[InflatablePie]

Pie; scumreads change over time.

...over the course of 10 hours/26 posts? And I made only one post during this time?

To be honest, I was expecting you to argue that I am still scum and "bussing my buddy". Instead, you just went ahead and did a total 180 on your view of me.

I don't get it.

[InflatablePie]

A) I really don't feel like reading through all these mini-walls even though I said I would, tbqh, unless there's any important new content stuck in there. I'm lazy and a quick skim makes it look like you guys are going back and forth on the same thing(s) pretty much. Anyone with any sort of case on me in one of those walls (DH?) should summarize it. Give me the most important points, questions, or whatever and I will respond to that ASAP.

B) oritz defending me/trying to buddy up to me... noted. Definitely noted.


Hasch, I read that as Kov saying "DH is still scummy but I'd rather have a Jack lynch" since he says he was expecting a Jack wagon - he doesn't say anything about "catching" people in the second post. And your second point is a bit nitpicky on wording. I can see where you're coming from, though.

However, I wouldn't mind a TL lynch either. The sudden change of heart he had on me when he wagoned DH up there is still bugging me, among other things. I'll reread tomorrow afternoon or night and see if I can find any DH/TL connections - can't think of anything off the top of my head at 5AM.

[InflatablePie]

Unvote, Vote: TL

- yeah, not liking that wagon vote after all.

DH, if TL is so obviously scummy, why isn't your vote on him? You should know that lurking isn't a scumtell on its own. Your post implies that you find Kov most scummy for lurking over everything else. So why isn't TL higher on your list of suspicions?

Being that I'm equally suspicious of both of these players now, it also comes across to me as Vote: Townie/FoS: Buddy.

Fugi really needs to stop tunneling and actually look at other players. I know I have discussed Albert B. Rampage's article on "focusing on scum" with you and others in IRC, but there is a fine line between focusing on someone you think is scum and tunneling. You think I'm scum? Fine. List your other suspects at least.

[InflatablePie]

So you'd rather lynch based on possibility than probability, from your POV? And obviously =/= "obviously".

PEdit: This still kinda contadicts your point about how "obviously scummy" TL is.

[InflatablePie]

Unvote

By the way, while two people have voted for you, I wasn't wagoning on you just to wagon like you're making it out to be. I had reasons and I've pointed out my suspicions on you in the past. And I don't know what trope you're talking about.

By chance, did you leave any breadcrumbs at all, TL?

@DH: My vote made him tied with you, close to a lynch or not. He jumped into a candidate slot, so I can understand the claim a bit. It still does seem odd, hence why I'm thinking it over, but I notice that scum claim more towards close-to-lynch and townies usually claim earlier on (WIFOM etc). Lynching PR claims D1 usually doesn't end well though. Leaning towards town for now.

Guess I'm back to

Vote: Demon

, then.

[InflatablePie]

That took about 5 attempts to post due to preview edits, btw.

Can someone re-present the case on Kov? A few people have pointed out supposed slips/contradictions but I'm still not seeing them... maybe I'm just being daft.

PEdit: DH, while you said TL is not the lynch for today you've also spent a damn good portion of the day saying how scummy he is without moving your vote to him.

[InflatablePie]

Still seems like you were pushing for TL's lynch/wagon harder than you were for Kov's though.

[InflatablePie]

That's another reason I'm not liking the Kov wagon - one of my scumreads is on it and is now pushing for it.

Friend is pushing it too, but I'm getting a neutral leaning town read on Friend ATM.

[InflatablePie]

Just because you're not voting for someone doesn't mean you're not pushing for his lynch, DH.

EBWOP to my DH joining the Kov wagon comment:

"But Pie! You called TL out for not thinking it was scum bussing scum! Why don't YOU think DH is bussing Kov?"

DH pushing for the Kov lynch the way he is doesn't seem like scum bussing. It's either scum pushing for a townie lynch or very confident town. I'm leaning towards the former.

Forgot to mention this: for someone that doesn't mind lynching for information DH, you're also pushing for someone who hasn't added as much content, or many reads. What information on other players do you think would we gain from a Kov lynch?


Going to note here, that at the moment Jack will probably not be lynched (unfortunately) as everyone seems to want to focus on the bigger players - me, DH, TL, etc. (in terms of adding to discussion anyways). Now, Kov and Twomz have both been seen as lurky/suspicious by some people and both have their vote on Jack. On one hand, scum would want to leave their vote off of a major bandwagon; on the other, scum obviously like to bandwagon to cause town lynches.

Personally, I'm kind of bothered by Twomz and Kov here, as I'm leaning towards the former reasoning. This is one thing causing me to consider Kov as a lynch candidate, possibly Twomz as well. Also worth noting that I doubt that both Twomz and Kov are scum together, by the way. It's possible one or neither of them are, but not both.

I still am leaning towards Kov being newbtown as I still can't see the cases in lurking/"contradictions"; Kov's defended himself against the latter.


Oh, and I'm just going to quit acknowledging Fugi if he say [close to] nothing but "Pie is scum" in every post. If that's okay with everyone. At first, I assumed he was tunneling to see my reaction to this 'pressure', but now it's getting to the point where it's just plain irritating me because he refuses to offer any other thoughts. Fugi, I'd like to ask you in the nicest way possible to "cut the shit". I want other scum reads. That IS what you're implying, because as far as I can see, you refuse to divulge any of your other scum reads, if you have any.

</rantslashbigpost>

PEdit: Okay, you're giving a bit more information. That's good. Who are your other scum reads, however minor?

[InflatablePie]

esii's reasoning for the BW vote is odd. Keeping an eye on him.

HC either is nitpicking or lacks reading skills, dunno which <_<

Twomz is acting... weird. I'm leaning towards scum the more he posts, tbh. Threatening to hammer at L-1 no matter what (although I know a player that does this, especially as town) is slightly scummy, and him still pressing for the Jack lynch seems off. Anyone else have thoughts on Twomz?

[InflatablePie]

I like the pressure on Twomz. However, I don't want Slippery "Kov" McSlick over here getting away.

You have a habit of keeping your vote on someone but pushing for someone else's lynch. You did this with TL, too.

[InflatablePie]

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

This week on "inside the mafia play book" we have special guest DemonHybrid, who will explain to our viewers how to poison the well

without looking scummy and anxious

to discredit a vote from a townie.

Town vs. town.

^ I'll just leave that there.

Since you're offering other thoughts now, I'll acknowledge you. Remember the first game we played together? Someone suspected me and I said "I guess you don't really have a case on me", pushed a wagon on him and everyone found that scummy the next day, so I got lynched and I was scum? The one thing that everyone said "gave me away" as scum once the day ended? Yeah, DH basically said the same thing here. Trying to make someone look bad so their vote appears bad - poisoning the well, as Jack put it. Why do you think DH is town, again?


In other news, the possibility of Jack/DH both being scum is becoming less and less as of late, unless Jack is trying to go for a bus or something, but that would be stupid with Kov being close to lynch earlier.

[InflatablePie]

EBWOP: or with the alternative Twomz lynch building up.

[InflatablePie]

Before this post, try to find the alleged attack on Jack's character. It's Where's Waldo without Waldo!

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

[InflatablePie]

DH/Pie/Haschel

I win?

Uh.


DH, that reminds me. Epic Question Dodge can also fall under this category, because you're attacking Jack for his posting habits, fact or not, and using them to seemingly discredit his vote.

[InflatablePie]

I bet your tune would be different if I was like "I'm extremely sorry, but I believe that you have overlooked my question. I believe that you are innocent, but would you mind responding to my inquiries for my own curiosity?"

TBH, most likely, had you phrased it differently I would not have brought it up. But Mafia is mostly about what people say and how they say it. The way you worded it came off as more of an attack. I don't care how you "meant to say [this]" or whatever; it doesn't really change anything at this point.

[InflatablePie]

Because when you say something that I find scummy due to phrasing, but then say "NO WAIT I MEANT TO SAY IT LIKE THIS" it definitely doesn't help my view of you.

[InflatablePie]

Twomz, Kov and TL need to place votes on one of the top 3 sometime in the near future. Deadline is in what, two days? We need to come to a decision and no one seems to be budging.

I could be convinced to join the Twomz wagon if a DH lynch becomes out-of-the-question, but I'd really rather lynch DH today.

[InflatablePie]

Just finished reading 30->32, gonna read 33 and see if I see anything other than DH calling me town.


Now, it's quite possible that all of the neighbors are town if they're told they aren't confirmed-town. I watched a game that finished recently off-site (with soras as the co-mod, no less) that had a Godfather in the scumteam but no cop. It's entirely possible that the three neighbors can be town AND have there be another PR if the neighbors are paranoid about their buddies' alignments... even if their paranoia isn't true. Hope I explained that well.

As for DH's claim... obviously he's a neighbor (unless a 3-man-scumteam just outed themselves but that would be beyond retarded), but that doesn't clear him of being scum. His recent buddying up to me, calling me town and such now that he's close to a lynch doesn't sit right with me. No one's given a great case on a Twomz lynch since I asked someone to convince me, either.

Reading things over.

r2r: Actually, I feel that I play really bad as scum a lot. Seriously, when you have a little while look back at all the games I was scum that you know of (my wiki has a few on-site ones). Maybe it's hindsight/low self esteem, but you and the other "SH crew" praise my abilities as scum too much. <_<

But yes, no one's completely clear, of course. Already commented on DH's sudden towncall of me, too.

[InflatablePie]

EBWOP: First sentence is referring to pages, and I'm going to be a bit P/C and apologize if I offended anyone with my use of "retarded". I'm in a weird mood today.

[InflatablePie]

DH: Right, because scum need to think carefully about what they say so they don't get caught in a lie. I can kind of see where you're coming from there, Still, town does that too, due to either just being town, or not wanting to be wrong due to lack of information. So posting carefully can be towntells or scumtells (someone told me at the end of a game offsite that they killed me, as scum, because I was PRtelling by being cautious with my posts).

I'm not sure if I want to try and outguess the mod/meta the mod, and think it's a possibility of the neighbors being all town, or stick with a solid scumread. The former's not always a good choice, but...

argh

TL:

You start a conversation you can't even finish it
You're talkin' a lot, but you're not sayin' anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed

Say something once, why say it again?

[InflatablePie]

You know what, fuck it, my common sense is yelling at me not to outguess/meta the mod.

Vote stays.

[InflatablePie]

I thought it was the same post. o_O

Make shorter posts/use less quotes so I actually read them plz kthnx.

[InflatablePie]

TL:

You start a conversation you can't even finish it
You're talkin' a lot, but you're not sayin' anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed

Say something once, why say it again?

PSYCHO KILLER
Qu'est-ce que c'est?
fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa better

RUN RUN RUN RUN, RUN RUN RUN AWAAAAAAY

Oh oh oh OHHHHHHHHH AY AY AY AY AY WOOOOO

[InflatablePie]

^That guy with the glasses is right. *sad trombone*

Explain how it's "obvious" then, Fugi, because I re-huh-hee-huh-heally don't see it.

I should stop with the tropes now.

[InflatablePie]

Saying "unvote or I'll claim" is tantamount to claiming a PR, which would was incredibly stupid to say if you actually are one, Fugi, so at this point a claim from you wouldn't persuade me one bit about DH or change my mind on you. I'm willing to go as far as to say you're probably actually vanilla looking for reactions judging from how you've done gambits like these before (if memory serves). I don't like TL's sudden unvote.

Call me stubborn; I'm not changing.

[InflatablePie]

Upon a few seconds of pondering, claiming anything right now is fucking stupid of you, if you are PR or Vanilla.

This falls under AtE, as well.

FoS: Fugi

[InflatablePie]

It's not OMGUS if I have a reason for doing it when I have a reason (that also is unrelated to me). Although after you've been calling me scum for the whole game, I can't say I didn't expect that.

PEdit: AtE doesn't always mean scum, true. I'm suspecting him because claiming early with no pressure and either outing himself OR raising the chances of scum hitting a PR at night (depending on his claim), among other possible repercussions, is scummy.

PE2: And when I call out TL for his unvote, he puts it back on DH. Why do you keep doing this?

[InflatablePie]

Ignore the odd parenthesis in my post. Should read something like:
It's not OMGUS if I have a reason for doing it (especially when I have a reason that also is unrelated to me)

Otherwise it looks like I'm being redundant.

[InflatablePie]

And look at all the people still not taking a stance on it, yet (unless I missed something) keeping their vote on someone who won't be lynched .

[InflatablePie]

Oh no wait you voted DH back there.

my b.

Any further comments then, Twomz?

[InflatablePie]

Vote: Deadline Extension

If only for the mod's problems with his computer, plus 3 days of discussion can't be bad, etc.. I've already made my decision and I'm not changing my mind, though.


Friend's post seem a bit weird to anyone else?

[InflatablePie]

Weird in what way?

"Weird" as in it wasn't really content. You kinda flip-flop on DH (although expressing a slight town lean by the last part) and say you'll have to think about esurio/oritz. Doesn't really contribute much, is all. Any useful thoughts?

[InflatablePie]

So, since we have a 3-day extension, I'm not going to be posting until tomorrow night or Saturday morning/night (deadline's now Sunday at 11:59 EDT, right?), depending how I'm feeling. Because I am having the worst fucking night ever and I really can't handle mafia shit right now. So technically, 24-48 hour V/LA.

Off to go calm down and enjoy my day off tomorrow. Apologies if anyone's waiting on an answer from me or anything.

One piece of content, @TL's recent post after a preview: nope.

[InflatablePie]

TL: The reasoning of "he tunneled Pie yesterday and died so this means Pie is scum" is WIFOM.

The odds of all neighbors actually being town is *possible*. Thought this briefly for a minute yesterday and now DH's flip has brought me back to that possibility... however, if I had to pick between the two left, I'd go with oritz. And actually, I think I'll do that now.

Vote: oritz

His first paragraph in 1005 bugs me, especially with the minor AtE at the end. It's like he's trying to buddy up to esurio or something to try and convince us not to lynch him. Don't know how to explain it exactly... And the "stupid townies claiming PRs for no reason makes me rage" comment bugs me, too. If oritz flips town, though, I will definitely consider the possibility of all-town-neighbors, because esurio is not scummy in my eyes.

[InflatablePie]

I'll reread later to bring up a better case on oritz, but:

a) Don't see how it goes with the Fugi kill. Fugi softclaimed a PR, that's probably why he was killed. WIFOM all you want, but I've been scum many times before and killing someone who is so highly suspicious of you is usually regarded as a bad move. Hell,

you

even waffle a bit here and doubt your own reasoning, which weakens your case.

2) I asked him to provide other thoughts. That's all. He did; I unvoted.

[InflatablePie]

Jack, esurio's misguided. He's most likely not scum.

Between Marathon Day, work, and other things (won't be here most of the day, for example), I haven't been posting as much. I'll reread/build a case on oritz whenever I get the chance. (b' ')b

With a doc dead and a claimed tracker, though, I'm inclined to believe that one of the neighbors is scum. It'd be too townsided for all three neighbors to be town, even with the paranoia factor, IMO.

r2r: Obviously, either one of them is scum or they're both town. 50/50. Which of the two are you leaning towards being scum?

[InflatablePie]

Its best to lynch one of the neighbors today isn't it? When DH flips scum it should clear me/esurio.

Yet now once DH has flipped town, the chances of there being a scum neighbor drops drastically, eh?

I asked earlier if it was possible for there to be 2 neighbor scum and got no response,

so I'm assuming there's 1.

It seems unorthodox for there to be 2 doesn't it? I will repeat that I've never played with neighbors before and the wiki page I read didn't give too much detail. So yes I am assuming there is one scum neighbor max. I'm sure you'll tell me that's a scumtell.

Call it nitpicking/tunneling, but the bolded seems like a slip. Like he knows there's one scum neighbor. A stretch, yes, but he says "one

max

" later in the post. Just something that caught my eye.

I love how everyone says "Twomz is scummy" and keeps their vote on someone else. I think ~4 people have said that. Completely reinforces that Twomz is scum in my mind. Similar to "FoS: Scumbuddy, Vote: Townie"

And he just forgets this and goes along with voting for DH and now me. There's also the fact that oritz was defending me a lot D1 (I noticed this) and that's been bugging me more than anything. And now he's trying to get me lynched? Then he'll say "oh shit, looks like I was right D1" when I flip town.

Not the strongest "case" ever, but I just woke up and skimmed through real quick. Maybe I can find something more concrete later. A lot of these points make sense in MY mind; it doesn't help that esurio is obviously town in my eyes and I still think there's one scum neighbor.

@oritz: Thoughts on HC and esurio? Curious.

@Friend: Fugi also softclaimed a PR, if you didn't notice his post back there. I thought he was a VT (mentioned this) and was hoping scum would think the same, but I guess not. Nightkills are WIFOM, too. But thanks for the vote.

@Mod

: Try messaging players/mods you've played with before if you can't find any replacements?

[InflatablePie]

*sigh*

Unvote

- I have to rethink this.

Why do you think there has to be a scum neighbor?

Because even with the suspicion factor, I highly doubt that there would be three town neighbors in the game. It just seems too... powerful. Why do you think all the neighbors HAVE to be town? I mean, besides the "I am town and I think esii is obvtown" thing - look at it from an outside view.

[InflatablePie]

EBWOP: Glad to see we have an active player in that slot, btw.

[InflatablePie]

On Twomz: I've had my eye on him for a while. He's been kind of lurky and fading in to the background, which is not scummy in and of itself (nulltell really) and has made odd posts like where he says he'll hammer whoever gets to L-1. And this post that I don't think r2r brought up, where he basically says he didn't want to be on what he thought would be the major wagon. Sketchy, much?

The one thing that really bugs me though, is the fact that once someone starts suspecting him (r2r), he rushes in to defend himself. When defending yourself so strongly is the most content you've put into any posts in the game, something's up.

Vote: Twomz

Since we haven't had votals in a few pages, I believe this leaves us with something like:

[3] InflatablePie: ortiz1193, esuriospiritus, Friend
[3] Twomz: Sebguer, r2r, InflatablePie
[2] esuriospiritus: Twomz, Jack
[2] Kov: Haschel Cedricson, TheLonging

But we should wait for the official VC because I fail at math.

[InflatablePie]

Look, I don't want to lynch a claimed PR. I think there's an okay chance he's fakeclaiming, but today is NOT the day to lynch him when we have scummier non-PRs that need to be dealt with.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[InflatablePie]

The thread's open? Thought the deadline was earlier.

brb reading

[InflatablePie]

*later (same thing)

[InflatablePie]

k so after a skim

HC voting TL really seems off to me, like everyone else here. TL's countervote doesn't look good at all though, and I've still had the thought in the back of my mind that TL was scum since I was suspicious of him before his claim.

Wondering why everyone thinks I'm scum now, though.

[InflatablePie]

*facepalm*

My mistake.

[InflatablePie]

Personally, I don't get the sudden suspicion of HC... not helping this HC/Pie theory going around, am I?

I'm gonna go reread him in ISO.

[InflatablePie]

Vote: Haschel Cedricson

... Wait...

[InflatablePie]

...I missed that. Durr.

Was Lelouch not evil enough of a picture?

[InflatablePie]

I want to be adamantly clear about this: I will have every right to speculate. Unless this game will turn into Follow The Tracker/Cop, there has to be a roleblocker (I've never been in a game without one). I want to also make this adamantly clear: I believe Kov and DH are scum (or one of them), but neither one is a roleblocker. I'm guessing Pie might be.

*proceeds to push the fact that I am most likely the roleblocker for the rest of the day*

LOL'D SO HARD

Who told you the setup?

[InflatablePie]

esurio, if you liked DN, go watch Code Geass. It's Death Note with robots. Basically. <_<

[InflatablePie]

1. I still don't know why anyone thought Pie was scum on Day 1.. he had done nothing

^