Mini 1046 - Murder in the Desert (Game Over!)

[Socrates]

Hey folks, how are things?

I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet. Parama, you have a good head on your shoulders, even when you're scum. Who should I vote?

[Socrates]

Actually, Socrates has a bad habit of always following my lead, even when I'm scum. See: NY114.
Admittedly, I caught 2 of the 3 scum on the other team in that game so

Anyways, Xine is teh scum.

It's not exactly a "bad" habit when it leads to dead scum. You might have been scum, but following you was still the right play.

I quite like 342.

vote:Xine

[Socrates]

Parama and Slaxx arn't scum buddies.

[Socrates]

At first the Xine wagon was cool, but now its popular so it sucks.

Setup speculation is so totally not a scum tell it's not even funny. It is a new player tell, and possibly even a mild town tell in the current site meta.

unvote

[Socrates]

I misspoke, my apoligies. I meant night kill speculation.

Welcome Socrates, why are you so sure that Parama and Slaxx aren't scum buds?
Parama: If I have this straight, your current case on me is entirely based on Bub buddying to me, is this correct?
I am trying to figure out why scum would kill CES, it seems that it would be easy to rally the town into lynching him, with his active lurking ways... so, who has reason to kill him? His suspect list included myself, Oso, and Boberz. of those 3, Oso actually did make an attempt to lead a wagon on him, and got nowhere, perhaps leading him to believe the opposite of my previously stated hypothesis, and thus choosing him for a night kill? hmmm... too bad this is not something Socrates can respond to. who else has thoughts on the night kill choice?

Parama and Slaxx aren't scum buddies because Slaxx was not happy with the fact that I turned to parama for direction. Furthermore, the way he characterized it says a lot about how Slaxx views parama himself (He see's him as a leader of the town, not something a scumbag would describe one of their buddies as).

[Socrates]

apologies*

[Socrates]

I got the exact same read on Xine's last post. The latter three lines said absolutely nothing.

Vote: Xine

This guy is scum.

What happened to your town read? You are willing to abandon it for one little mis-step. (One that is not even actually scummy, I might add).

vote: WOMC

[Socrates]

I am just a typo machine today.

You are willing to abandon it for one little misstep?

[Socrates]

Xine/Socrates scumbuddies seems painfully obvious now.

Socrates is in panic mode and is desperately trying to save his buddy from a lynch.

Characterizing dissent from your wagon of choice as scummy? I look forward to seeing you flip scum, scum.

[Socrates]

I'll just leave it up to the rest of the town to decide.

Are you bussing?

Fuck, you're bussing. That's why you are so smug about this.

I hope the town isn't stupid enough to give you town cred if Xine flips scum.

[Socrates]

The Xine wagon grew way too fast over reasoning way too poor for any reasonable person to believe that there wasn't anything disingenuous about the wagon. I liked the case Parama laid out enough for a placeholder vote while I got my bearings in the game, and truth be told, if the wagon had simply gone to L-1 based off of that, I would have been totally fine with it. BUT. The fact that the wagon exploded based off of what I consider to be the flat out stupidest scum tell on the site, with the specific people joining (Charter should know better. Last time we were scum together, he, as scum, attacked a townie that had speculated on the NK in just such a context. WOMC had just claimed to have had a town read on Xine and abandoned it completely unceremoniously. DH... well, lets just say I have a low opinion of DH and leave it at that.) made it so that I could not in good conscience support that wagon.

Does this make Xine town? Not really. My whole point is NOT that NK speculation is a town tell, but that it is a NULL tell. Now, I would have been inclined to call Xine town based off of the context of the wagon, but the way that my favorite pick for scum on the wagon (WOMC) approached it (He is waaaaaaay too certain that Xine will flip scum. Especially for someone who just had a town read on her) makes me reconsider that it might be a bus.

Now, when I take off my "Socrates is always right" hat and step back, I can see how someone might think that I look like Xine's scumbuddy, but I have just walked you through my train of thought and I am not going to go against my instincts purely to avoid looking scummy. That's what scum do.

[Socrates]

"Low opinion". Right >_>

And what do you think of Xine's vote on Slaxx, sir Always-right-a-lot?

It's awful random. It's interesting because it is obviously not a self preservation vote because then she would have voted WOMC who already has a vote, so I don't get what the devious scum machinations she would be exhibiting with such a vote, but the town reasoning is completely opaque as well since she didn't deign to explain herself.

So.... *shrug*.

Oh, and you haven't responded to a think WOMC said other than your flip-floppy unvote.

What else should I have responded to?

[Socrates]

So, *shrug* to what seems to be a little bit of a softclaim? Why would anyone want to lynch a potential softclaim?

There are a number of players on site that lynch all soft claims on general policy. Especially in the context that Slaxx did it (as a response to suspicion).

Here we go with sucking up to Parama.

This is simple framing and interpretation with no logic to back it up. There is no way to respond to this kind of thing other than to say "No, you are wrong."

So. No. You are wrong.

A minimal observation. This appears to help the town, but Socrates already admitted to sheeping with Parama, which means he thought Parama was town then else he wouldn't be sheeping which reasons out to that there is no reason to establish a disconnection between Parama and Slaxx since the Parama part is redundant. Feel free to ask for clarity if needed.

Once again, this simply isn't true. I indicated multiple times that I sheeped him because I think he is a strong scum hunter, not because of any town read on him.

The scuminess in Xine's post is obvious, as others would point out. My original read of Xine wasn't that strong, and Parama has a tendency to tunnel hardcore, so that partly influenced my views.

And now about the style, Socrates now speaks with unwavering conviction, giving urgency to the purpose of dissolving the wagon as fast as possible, yet at this point, he has not even read the thread, and is clearly bullshitting to try and save his partner.

I've said multiple times that I think the "obvious scumminess" is stupid, and I think you realize this and are deliberately over inflating the magnitude of the scum tell to justify your stance.

And yes, I am certain you are scum. Frame it however you would like.

The panic feeding need to action pulls through in the voice of this passage. This feels like English class.

Yes, this is just like English class. In English class, people pull interpretations out of their ass with no real evidence behind those interpretations.

And now for perhaps what stands out as the most concrete scummy post. Earlier, Socrates hopped off the wagon and hinted that he thought Xine was town (scroll back up to see the end about night kill speculation), and now he turns his view around again in order to drive his desperation case. Lastly, the last sentence is the bad kind of AtE.

I already explained my train of thought here. AtE is a buzzword that I give no weight to whatsoever.

[Socrates]

This is simple framing and interpretation with no logic to back it up. There is no way to respond to this kind of thing other than to say "No, you are wrong."

So. No. You are wrong.

Once again, this simply isn't true. I indicated multiple times that

I sheeped him

because

Unvote, Vote: Socrates

You are clearly misunderstanding something. I sheeped parama upon entering the game. There is no disputing that. WOMC claimed that I did it to suck up to Parama, which is false. I did it because I think Parama is a strong scumhunter.

Also, are you saying that AtE is okay to use because you don't like to discuss it, or....?

AtE is one of those things that people just throw around a lot without it really meaning anything. I simply said it would be dumb to give WOMC town cred if Xine flipped scum. There is no appeal to emotion there.

Preview Edit:

Explaining my vote a little bit more:

You can't say that he's a "strong scumhunter" and that you're sheeping him and then say that WOMC is wrong about you fully believing he's town. That's foolish either way, whether Parama is scum (you're fully believing what scum wants you to believe) OR town (because it's hypocritical). Neither is pro-town.

DH, I disagree with you vehemently and passionately. Being willing to follow other players when they put forward strong arguments is a skill more people should learn, but this is a playstyle thing. I can link you to a game where I have done this as town before, if you want.

[Socrates]

Socrates, do you think standardized national testing (SAT/ACT/AP) for English is legitimate?

Nope. It makes my blood boil. Sometimes it weirds out my friends with just how angry it makes me.

[Socrates]

Sorry I didn't make my vote clear, point still stands however.

DH, I disagree with you vehemently and passionately. Being willing to follow other players when they put forward strong arguments is a skill more people should learn, but this is a playstyle thing. I can link you to a game where I have done this as town before, if you want.

First off, people should learn to keep their OPTIONS open and take everything in. To just sheep those who put good arguments out is a recipe for being made to look like a puppet after said person flips town, if they are town. You realize that's how scum who are actually competent at the game are able to make town think that they're lynching someone who deserves it...like 3 or 4 times in a row, right?

I disagree, but this is something more suited to mafia discussion than here.

Second, I'm not interested in "what you did in the past when you were town". That was then, this was now. I was watching Casino Royale last night, the part where Mathis tells Le Chiffre what his tell is so that he is able to exploit Bond by faking the tell and steal his chipstack. Just because you do something one time doesn't mean it's always going to be the case.

Thats fine, but the point is that I can indisputably prove that I believe what I am saying, and while that doesn't make me town, how can you seriously claim that it makes me more likely scum?

[Socrates]

It was the context.

You're saying "You don't know whether or not Parama is town and you aren't sucking up to him" after agreeing with him and admitting to sheeping (which would only make sense and would be smart if Parama was confirmed town).

This does two things for you:

1. It makes you seem like you ARE keeping all of your options open by saying "Parama COULD be town or scum, I dunno"...
2. ...but then you say "...but he's a good scumhunter, so I'm going to do what he says." Hello, townie points, my name is Socrates!

You're agreeing 100% with the person that makes the most sense without further reasoning, but want to be regarded as the person who's keeping their options open...AFTER the fact, no less.

Good job, you have applied a scum motivation to my actions. What you have utterly failed to do is prove that that is more likely to be true than the reasoning that I have provided.

That makes it NULL.

I'm growing gradually more and more paranoid that DH is chainsawing on behalf of WOMC. I want to hear from some other people.

[Socrates]

I actually fail to see more reasoning from you other than "I think Parama's a good scumhunter, so I sheeped him. And I'm not sucking up to him. And he could be either town or scum."

So once you actually provide reasoning that is more likely to be true than what I posted, it's indeed scummy to me.

*headdesk*

I'm done with this, because you are clearly not interested in actually listening to what I am saying.

If anyone else has any questions, I will gladly answer them, but DH is officially on [ignore] for now.

[Socrates]

Not much I can respond to in that. All I can say is that is how Oso plays, I guess.

I can say that his low content is understandable when you remember why he replaced out of the game:

Oso requested replacement during the night due to extra responsibilities at work. Socrates has agreed to replace him. Everyone, say hello!

Hardly surprising that he put off posting content a lot if work was sucking up all his time.

As for the comment about him being around since 2008, one look at the number of posts he has made should re-contextualize that. He might have been around for a while, but he hasn't played that many games.

[Socrates]

I'm not seeing how WOMC and Bub's interactions don't fit within scum distancing.

If WOMC is scum, then DH is almost certainly his scum buddy, but if WOMC is town, then nothing less than a cop investigation would get me to vote DH.

The discussion of Xine's claim is reminding me of this post by Ythill (Ythill is Xine's husband, unless I am mistaken.) Particularly the last point. In my mind, the claim is mostly null.

Charter, I find it weird that you are considering letting Xine live when I have vivid memories of you stubbornly refusing to let a cop claim live on the grounds of information, especially considering how much weaker a tracker is than a cop.

Slaxx is doing way more work than he would need to be doing if he was scum. Yea yea effort =/= protown, I don't care.

[Socrates]

I don't lynch people for information. I pushed hard for that lynch because he was scum, his claim was bullshit, and I was sure he was scum. Here, I'm not as sure.

I know you don't. Thats why I thought post 457 was weird.

Off the top of my head, I could see Soc and Xvart, since Soc is just being generically scummy.

Anything for me defend against?

I could see myself on the Xvart wagon if WOMC has officially stalled.

[Socrates]

Boo. As promised:

unvote, vote:xvart

PREVIEW EDIT: I think this is L-1?

[Socrates]

Boo. As promised:

unvote, vote:xvart

PREVIEW EDIT: I think this is L-1?

Ohai there you have a reason to be doing this?

Sure. The case Slaxx put forward on Xvart was a good one and the avoidance tell is one that resonates with me personally. As I had previously indicated, if support for the WOMC wagon had died down I would be wasting my time sitting on it and I considered a Xvart vote to be an acceptable alternative lynch to WOMC.

Screw it, shower to think --->

unvote vote Socrates

Prob the way to go for today.

Any reason other than the Xvart vote?

Slaxx's attitude about the Xvart wagon is hard to parse, and I think it would ultimately be a fruitless endeavor. If he is scum and truely believes that a xvart lynch would make his death inevitable, then derailing the xvart wagon is really the most reasonable long term strategy for him, but if he is town and his scum read of xvart truly is waning, then it would be hard for him to do anything else in good faith and he is caught between a rock and a hard place. I am going to stick with my previous read of him and say he is town.

As far as how I feel about the Xvart lynch right now, I don't think his responses to the wagon building on him sufficiently justifies the way this wagon is falling apart.

Partial gut, partially because I can't put a scum motivation (especially with Soc) into your last couple posts. I don't know why as scum you would be trying this hard to frame me. I mean if you're scum all this effort you put into the lynch was wasted, because I had/have hammer for a short period of time, I think. There was nothing else for you to do as scum except keep your mouth shut, because the more you talk the more it would clear me and incriminate whoever is left. Plus when you pointed out the thing with me directing the track I think thats way more likely to come from town.

The response to this is simple. Xvart is the third person TODAY to have been put at L-1, so why would scumXvart feel that his death would be inevitable? Furthermore, if he WAS to talk his way out of being lynched, the most viable way to do so is to spin a wagon off onto another player, i.e. you.

The fact of the matter is, if Xvart was scum, I can't see him acting in any way other than the way he is right now, other than explicitly giving up, which, as I said, he would have no reason to do.

[Socrates]

Soc, if xvart is scum, who do you think 3rd mafierz is?

I personally don't get why the WOMC wagon died the way it did and would like to see a bullet put through his skull. (Admittedly I didn't read his last wall post and probably should.)

If I am wrong about WOMC, I would probably need to review my reasons for abandoning the Xine wagon and Xine herself, and there are also a couple of other players that I keep forgetting are in the game (Boberz, lowell) that I should probably really take a look at one of these days.

[Socrates]

Everyone in this game named Slaxx is town, everyone wearing a Professor Layton avatar is not.

I have it on good authority that the latter is false.

This last day has been a rehash of the previous days.

[Socrates]

Don't have time for anything anything of substance.

Townie.

[Socrates]

So by defending ourselves, I guess you mean make a case for our own townness? Okay.

When I replaced into the game, I deliberately and loudly sheeped a vote off of Parama, something I have done before, and always for the same reason: to help me get my bearings in a game. If you are curious what I mean when I say that, such stunts tend to generate discussion about the relevant parties and I can find out very quickly how a lot of players feel about each other. Any possible accusation that I did it in order to avoid scumhunting or the like should have been quickly dashed by the fact that I almost immediately unvoted as the Xine wagon grew.

Regarding that unvote, I already explained that the best I could:

The Xine wagon grew way too fast over reasoning way too poor for any reasonable person to believe that there wasn't anything disingenuous about the wagon. I liked the case Parama laid out enough for a placeholder vote while I got my bearings in the game, and truth be told, if the wagon had simply gone to L-1 based off of that, I would have been totally fine with it. BUT. The fact that the wagon exploded based off of what I consider to be the flat out stupidest scum tell on the site, with the specific people joining (Charter should know better. Last time we were scum together, he, as scum, attacked a townie that had speculated on the NK in just such a context. WOMC had just claimed to have had a town read on Xine and abandoned it completely unceremoniously. DH... well, lets just say I have a low opinion of DH and leave it at that.) made it so that I could not in good conscience support that wagon.

Does this make Xine town? Not really. My whole point is NOT that NK speculation is a town tell, but that it is a NULL tell. Now, I would have been inclined to call Xine town based off of the context of the wagon, but the way that my favorite pick for scum on the wagon (WOMC) approached it (He is waaaaaaay too certain that Xine will flip scum. Especially for someone who just had a town read on her) makes me reconsider that it might be a bus.

Now, when I take off my "Socrates is always right" hat and step back, I can see how someone might think that I look like Xine's scumbuddy, but I have just walked you through my train of thought and I am not going to go against my instincts purely to avoid looking scummy. That's what scum do.

I still feel this way, by the way, and I still feel that WOMC looks really scummy in its context, something that I will get to later.

Anyway, the back and forth that I had with DH involved a lot of us talking past each other and I think it is very obvious that we have fairly different views on the game of mafia. I commented at a later date that I only thought that DH could be scum with WOMC and otherwise would almost have to be town, and this is because of this back and forth, which a scumDH almost certainly wouldn't have bothered to engage in unless I was threatening his scumbuddy. Though that is a pretty moot point now, since he isn't a roleblocker, and a scumtracker wouldn't have targeted Xine, and I am having a hard time coming up with any other pro-scum role that would have targeted a townie without killing them. So barring a desperate gambit from a Xine/DH scumteam, he is almost certainly town.

After the tragically short lived WOMC wagon died down, I decided that pushing it further would have been a waste of time and energy and determined that xvart was a pretty good lynch anyway. The case that Slaxx put out, while short, was a good one and I still don't think that his reactions to his wagon growing were very pro-town. In the end it turned out that I was wrong, but 5 other people were wrong as well.

My posting is on the downswing lately, but that is site-wide. School is kicking my ass right now and I haven't been able to invest much in mafia other than for my modding duties.

On that note, a detailed post on why WOMC is scum and needs to die posthaste to come later.