Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[nhammen]

confirminating

[nhammen]

That you actually took my joke as an attack of some sort and are attempting to rally a defense makes it look like you have something to hide.

Not seeing this defense rallying myself.

Cool that you quickly jump wagons, though. Of course, it doesn't really matter at this early stage. Perhaps I'll wait for the others before doing anything else.

Cool that you comment on Thor's wagon jumping, but not DemonHybrid's double wagon jumping. Why was Thor's jump from singer to you worth more comment than Demon's jump from Devon to singer to you?

Go read Devon again. He openly admits that his vote is for "revenge" reasons when he votes DH. This is while an active bandwagoning is going on. Newbie scum would probably have commented on the bandwagon - either hopping on it, trying to derail it for town points, or trying to start up an actual counter to protect a buddy. Instead Devon is focused on making a joke with his friend, and making a joke using language that has negative connotations. Methinks the newb would not have acted this way if having the dastardly role of scum. Therefore; likely to be town.

Maybe a very weak town tell. Determining what action newbs will take is always a risky gambit.

@Far_Cry - why are you posting so much in order to say that you're not saying anything?
Seriously - thus far you've commented that redtail is taking things a touch too seriously (???)
You also commented how we shouldn't get out of the RVS just yet (because, yknow, RVS is *so* pure and valuable if people aren't expressing opinions and votes).
Finally you've just kept saying how we need more people to weigh in all while not weighing in on anyone or putting out a single vote (despite believing RVS is worthwhile)

Agree completely.

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

Aaaaand defensive.

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

At the same time as refusing to talk yourself.

[nhammen]

I must admit I am a bit surprised at how hostile people have been to Far_cry. Even if he was being hypocritical by asking people to talk more or to say more substantive things (without doing so himself), I don't think this kind of hypocrisy is a scum-tell, nor even a sign of poor town play. It seemed like an innocent comment to get people in general to talk more given that we still have yet to hear from people at all so far. Moreover, in mafia I think that even banal comments such as "talk more" can have interesting consequences, and I think that it is right to conclude that the things Far_cry have said so far, as inconsequential as they may seem at face value, turned out to yield things of importance (namely, the defensive reactions to him by Thor, and some of the comments by nhammen). [I recognize that this last sentence is a shaky argument, so nothing should hinge upon it too much]

But getting back to the point, I guess my question for Thor is: What makes Far_cry's hypocrisy a scum-tell, rather than simply bad play-style? I ask this from you since you voted for him, rather than simply calling him in out on it. Nhammen agreed with your claims, but did not place a vote, so my question is not directed at him (though he is free to weigh in on it).

I actually have seen similar play to Far_Cry's before (wanting more info, but not doing anything to provide it), and I usually regard it as a newb-tell rather than a scum-tell. On the other hand, his join date is over a year ago, and this does not quite match. His comments may be more scummy when combined with later information.

nhammen- Who do you find more suspicious: Thor, Nexus, or me?

This early in the game, it is tough to find the difference between levels of scummy. Thor's attacks remind me of my play as scum in my most recent game. But he has also been the most active participant, and I can easily see pro-Town motivation for his play, so there is no way I am voting him. Nexus' comment on Thor's jumping but not on Demon's is odd, but not scummy by itself. I would have liked an answer to my comment though. He seems to have completely ignored it. You have been playing in a very newb way, but you have over a year on site. Something's not adding up. But I would say that you are the most scummy of the three, by a hair, or by epsilon, or whatever you prefer.

Andrigan: What do you think of Thor?

I was initially worried that he might be scum trying to quickly implant many small seeds of suspicion about people and let them run their course (against innocent townies). However, he has followed up on many of those seeds (instead of deflecting and planting more) which leads me to believe that instead he is planting traps for scum to fall into, rather than deliberately planing seeds of suspicion against townies.

So very true. But why are you drawing attention to someone else's traps? If you identify them, shouldn't you let them lie hidden, to see if they catch someone? Also, why were you looking for traps in the first place?

Have you addressed yet why you find my shift so 'hoppy' and DH's shift not worth mention? Someone asked this earlier and I thought it was a good question.

I'm wondering if he missed my question or what. Very curious. I would almost say suspicious.

[nhammen]

nhammen: I was too focussed on Thor because he was the one that caught my attention first. I don't know why I didn't address Demon either.

Sorry, I missed the question first time around.

This seems honest to me.

Ok, reasonable ideas about Thor, and I'd see how his actions could be interpreted as town or scummy. But tell me, why do you find my play "newbie?"

You didn't want people to take things too seriously in RVS, and you wanted to refrain from commenting until there was enough information available. At the same time, you were not adding new information to the game until pressed to do so. This is how I played as a newbie, and I have seen many newbs play the same way.

BTW I a seeing a lot of this hypocrite argument over and over again, and I'm not liking the way it has been brought up to the exclusion of almost everything else so far. Not that theres much else to talk about... But still, something about this is bothering me.

Thor, stop being dumb. I see no reason why there needs to be a wagon before everyone's contributed, unless there's been an absolute, 100% scumslip, which Far_Cry has not done IMO. And don't recruit me like a little weasel. You're starting to remind me of a player I reeeaaally don't like.

You do realize that you are doing the exact same thing Far_Cry did?

Well, I didn't specify the traps I was referring to. But I will mention some that have already sprung since there is nothing to spoil anymore, namely the one in which he tried to get an early wagon going during RVS. I don't really see it as a problem to mention them if the traps are already out in the open for people to see (and Thor already admitted himself that he was searching for newb scum).

In response to your next question, I am looking for traps because the way I find scum is a mixture of town-hunting plus scum-hunting. If I can identify town like behavior, then I will be less suspicious overall of that person, unless shown otherwise. This narrows down my choices to select for scum (again assuming nothing else changes).

Thank you for answering my questions. Town hunting is a good strategy. However, I can easily see scum motivation for some of the comments you have made about Thor, and this post is not enough to make up my mind if those comments were honest Town or misleading scum.

No. You're just asking him to set up people for NKs and lynch targets during the day. Anyone who posts lists of "least townie to most townie," or anything likewise, will instantly be on my bad side, for doing the work of scum for them.

This idea has been proven false. Most good players do not believe that this is the case. However I don't want theory discussion to bog down the Town. I'm just going to say, that if I think that a Town list would prove to be useful in this game, I will not hesitate to post one.

I missed it since I only saw the latest post as was responding to it. I would not hold some players to one standard and others to another. That seems a little hypocritical, don't you think? But you do seem to be taking it personally, and/or making it seem like that was intentional. What makes you think that I wasn't responding to the posts together, but only quoted the more demanding one?

Wait what? So you missed seeing the first example of this, but then said that his argument was bad because maybe you did it on purpose, and he had no way of knowing? what the.... Also, I am now noting your making sure everyone knows how you are definitely NOT a hypocrite after all that long discussion about hypocritical behavior being scummy. Its almost like you were worried that people might see it that way, and decided to head it off beforehand.

VOTE: singer

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

Early claim noted. In this case, I see it as a Town-tell, for various reasons I will not go into. Disagree about Nexus. Your keep an eye on comments are slightly OMGUSsy, but since your prime suspicions are neither one on your wagon, this is ok.

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

The way this town is going I'd actually have just expected you to sit at L-2 for about a week while people debated if my references to my beard are scum or town motivated.
It's a town tell, in case anyone was wondering.

Quite true. More reasons to see this as a Town-tell.

I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

Why is my vote 'devil may care' and Far_Cry's vote is 'understandable'?

Good point.

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

The most convincing argument against Far_Cry is contained right in this quote. Almost has me convinced to vote him rather than singer.

[nhammen]

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

This is a stupid reason to vote for me. Had I not already told everybody that my vote was placed solely for the reason to promote discussion. I have no need to unvote, because the desired result of my decision has not been produced yet.

I find this game pitiful. No wants to do shit, no one wants to say shit. Instead, we are resorting to voting each other for some ridiculous reasons. I have yet to find one good case against anybody, one that's reasonable and makes sense. Here, we have jimfinn, who mind you, has been actively lurking, going out and calling me scum trying to spring up activity. While it is true that I said it would be ridiculous to vote and then unvote so soon (and it would be), he failed to notice that the reason of my vote was just for the sake of actvity, and then goes around and twists the meanings of my actions.

Now I would like you to tell me who's scummier. UNVOTE: DemonHybrid, VOTE: jimfinn

Except that you specifically stated that the reason you were not unvoting was because "it would look ridiculous". This is what jimfinn's attack is based on. And nowhere have you refuted that this is scummy. Even though you make mention of it in this very post. In fact, you seem to have actively twisted his case to be "because I unvoted". Bad Far_Cry. Bad.

What? No. I wasn't saying his argument was bad at all. I was just wondering why he didn't think that was a possibility. I didn't like the fact that he thought I was so blatantly trying to make one person "look scummy" (or whatever he thought I was doing) and not someone else. The whole hypocrisy thing... If you're looking for a scum tell in that, you won't find one.

And does him not seeing it as a possibility matter? Why did you pick up so much on this one question of his that you had to respond so thoroughly to it? What about his posts gave you the idea that he thought of your slot in this way? Why did

you

specifically make mention of hypocrisy after it had been discussed ad-nauseum?

Oh ya, and what do you think of singer and redtail now?

Just curious, but I'd like to know why these two are chosen from among everyone.

Right now I think Far_Cry is suspicious, as well as Redtail, for reasons that other people have already mentioned.

And what about these reasons do you agree with? What about these reasons do you disagree with?

Yes, I'm talking about Jack.

Consider the fact that I consider Jack one of the best players I've interacted with on the site and my commentary makes perfect sense.

How do you see it *not* computing?

It would've made a lot more sense if you explained your high regards towards Jack

before

you proclaimed that. Also, kinda sounds like you're trying to be pro-town. Just sayin...

I um waht?? Too pro-Town to be Town?

Unvote if any, Vote: Thor665

I would agree with singer. You're being horribly anti-town now with the sarcasm and terrible responses.

!?!??!

Quite frankly, I think I answered those last two posts with *exactly* the level of serious concern and consideration they deserved.

Agree 100%

[nhammen]

Please replace me as well - I don't have time for this right now, and I'm not going to keep wasting everyone's time.

Please understand Devon's situation here, we've all been really swamped with work and personal problems, I've been lucky enough to find time to post but not everyone is that lucky.

Come back when you have the time, you're very welcome to join another game with me in the future, Dev =)

He's replacing out. Is there any reason for you to say this?

@nhamman - what's the case on singersinger again? I see scumminess there but I have to wonder why the guy *sheeping* her "case" is not as worthy for a vote?

Well, at first it was just her attempts to portray you as scummy for little to no reason, and her defensiveness (both for why she commented on one thing but not a similar one, and the premature defense of that post), which are both small tells but were still enough to boost her above other players. Then she voted you for... I'm still not sure what she believes the case is, because I see none.
As for your second question, I saw Town-tells from Demon. This could just be really bad play.

@nhammen...anyone "trying" to be pro-town, means they're not. If "you" were actually pro-town, "you" wouldn't have to try, know what I mean?

First of all, show where he is "trying" instead of "doing". Second of all, I have, and usually do "try" to be pro-Town when I am Town. So your logic fails in any case.

@nhammen: I will try to reply to your posts tomorrow, when I have more and time and will be thinking better.

So is this going to happen at some point?

The buddying I am referring to is from this quote:

@Thor, I'm not voting DH because I'm deciding between him and signer. The "case" against you is so absurd that, if I didn't know better, I would consider it RVS.

The emphasis here seemed a bit stark for me. Even though I believe Thor is town, I'm not sure the case against Thor that Redtail is referring to is totally absurd or deserving of quotes around the word. This kind of certainty would seem characteristic of a cop had it been day 2, and the cop had already received a town reading for the person. Since it is day 1 and no cop investigations have taken place, I find Redtail's dismissal suspicious (as scum trying to score town points).

What part of the "case" do you find to have any truth to it? What part of the case do you believe has any possibility at all of indicating an anti-Town alignment?

[nhammen]

Devon's spot is still scummy because of lack of reasoning and increased neutrality. I'm waiting to see what her replacement does.

Ok, let me get this straight. You've been defending her to no end, regardless of people telling you it doesn't look good, and now she's on your scum list? Like...is this to distance yourself, or what?

Bad argument singer. Looks like you are just trying to pin something on him rather than making a decent case.

I really don't agree with your defense. You can't possibly think it's a good idea to speak for someone else in this game. Or have you forgotten who your true allies are in this game?

What does this comment mean? Who are your true allies singer?

singersinger - questions, she doesn't notice them because she doesn't read, or she thinks she can dodge them. See quoted text below for questions I'd still like answered.

Agree. I'm pretty sure I asked some questions as well.

Unvote: singersinger
Vote: DemonHybrid

Something's going on here.

Define something...

Unvote, Vote: singersigner

Thor put it quite nicely. I still find Thor scummy, but you just pulled ahead in the lead.

So you decide to change your vote in response to that?? I'm not getting this.

[nhammen]

Well, deadline is tomorrow. I will not have time to read up on the last page today, so I hope I get on before the deadline hits. Also, we should decide if we are lynching singer or not, and if not, we need to request a deadline extension.

[nhammen]

The comments from redtail, sotty, and Admiral are quite good. Lots of information there. Could be useful on later days.

Herro! I am about to go out in a bit and I have not yet had time to do a detailed reading. I understand that this might draw suspicion on me, and I'm not sure why Andrigan did not roleclaim, but I am a miller.

A question for you: where exactly did you learn the strategy of claiming Miller on Day 1?

@nhamman - are you against the singersinger lynch?

No, I am voting singer because I find her to be the most scummy, but I saw that someone was trying to start up a Far_Cry wagon and wanted people to switch. I was just saying that there is no way this is happening without a deadline extension.

[nhammen]

Prodded catching up... grad school is not conductive to mafia play, and forgetting about the game really isnt. Will try to post soon. Might be 4 hours but should be within 1.

[nhammen]

A question for you: where exactly did you learn the strategy of claiming Miller on Day 1?

To be perfectly forthright: I have a friend (real life) who plays on this board but is NOT involved in this game. I asked him, generally, if it's a good idea to claim miller early in a game without giving him many details of the game. He said it was not unusual. I didn't want to explain exactly cuz it sounds sort of sketchy to do so; I should maybe not have put much effort into defending my action.

You asked him if it was a good idea? So you already knew of the strategy then. Where did you FIRST learn of this strategy?

@nhamman - but if you want to lynch singersinger for being most scummy why would you try to get an extension so people could lynch Far_Cry?

Three reasons: First, there is nothing wrong with more time to talk. I find this to be a good thing. Second, I am not so arrogant as to believe that my opinion takes precedence over other peoples' opinions. If others wanted to switch, then I have no problem with that. And third, I didn't try to get an extension: I said that if a switch was going to happen, we would need an extension. I was just surprised by the fact that the deadline was so close.

So, after the singer flip, my first thought is that maybe the late switch attempt was driven by scum. So, was Admiral trying to kill the wagon? If so, he was too late to do any good, and a good player would realize this. Not sure. It doesn't read like trying to kill a wagon. One action doesn't mean too much. But I'll note it here, in case it proves to be important later.

Oh, you know what would be cool?

If Far_Cry is town (or scum and there are 3 scum), we lynch Nexus. Cause singer defended him every time she talked about him and blamed his play on "oh, he's new".

I um what? If there are clues that Nexus is scum, why don't we consider lynching him? Why do we have to go through someone else first? I'm really left feeling uneasy about this post. Lining up lynches and such. However, I think this is more bad play than scummy. That may just be me being too sure of my earlier Town-read.

Redtail is most likely town as he made a good case against singer that was instrumental in her lynch.

Scum can make good cases too. Especially when they know that the case is true. Not that I currently think he is scum, but I definitely don't have a Town read on him yet.

That leaves:
Far_Cry - bad day 1 play
jimfinn - lurking
Nexus - disappeared

Given jimfinns seemingly miraculous reappearance at the beginning of day 2 after a week long absence, and his apparent desire to eschew discussion in favour of a quick-lynch, I will...

vote: jimfinn

I'll have to reread jimfinn. Shouldn't take too long. Actually, I just did that. And there isn't enough there to make a read.

Oh, you know what would be cool?

If Far_Cry is town (or scum and there are 3 scum), we lynch Nexus. Cause singer defended him every time she talked about him and blamed his play on "oh, he's new".

That sort of stuck out at me. She mentioned a couple of times that his "pattern" of playing wasn't so great, but he's only had one game or something, so you can't really establish much of a "pattern." Seems sort of a weak way to defend someone, and it doesn't seem like she'd take so much care to defend a townie who might be an easy-ish lynch to sell. She also at some point chides Nexus for not being so great at playing. Pretty interesting.

Thor strikes me as pretty townie because of Singer's vigorous attempts to cast suspicions on him.

Agree with both the points about Nexus and the points about Thor. In fact, I agree enough that I am going to

VOTE: Nexus

I'm still here, I don't even know why I disappeared. I apologise.

I'd also like to say that I didn't ask, or indeed want singer to defend me. It was annoying me that she was, and it is a good plan of hers-when she flipped, get the town to chase after who she was defending.

So yeah, I have had no desire to be associated with singer at all.

I am sooo surprised that you don't want to be linked to known scum. This completely convinces me that you must be Town.[/sarcasm]


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[nhammen]

I'm sorry, but I may have to ask for replacement. I'll find out soon, but I think I wont really be able to post even as much as the small amount I have been, for the next two weeks. And two week is too long for a V/LA. I'll try and find a replacement for myself when I have time, if it is needed. I was kinda hoping that grad school would not get in the way as much as it has. Maybe I can find someone who is willing to be only a temp replacement for the next two weeks. I'll see.

[nhammen]

Soon after my last post, my computer died, so I can't even find a replacement for myself.

MOD: requesting replacement

If my computer gets fixed in two weeks, and whoever replaces me is ok with me coming back, I can do that.

Also, I saw the claim, so I should UNVOTE: .

[nhammen]

Hey guys. Sorry I had to replace out. Grad school has been giving me a really tough time, and then my laptop's hard drive died. Anyways, I'm glad our team won, even after I replaced out. When I saw that shotty replaced me, I felt really bad, but it all worked out. My favorite part is the comment from the scum QT: "nhamman goes away and I get shotty, wonderful scum wet dreams like this don't happen every day." After I got my computer fixed, I checked back about once a week, and if I saw that shotty needed replacing, I would have jumped back in in an instant.

[nhammen]

@nhamman - but if you want to lynch singersinger for being most scummy why would you try to get an extension so people could lynch Far_Cry?


No whammy, no whammy...

Vote: singersinger

This should have been a clue that you were scum. This was you trying to make it seem like my vote for singer was not something I really wanted to do. And you hammered before giving me a chance to answer. I should have figured it out.