Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[el simo]

/confirm

[el simo]

And from now on I will for ever associate you with the attitude of that guy in your display picture.

[el simo]

Right off the bat I think TheLonging is probably town. Just because I think scum would pay more attention to the rules regarding pregame (since they can talk beforehand) and he would have known not to vote.

I think this is probably reading a bit to much into it. I've played a game as scum where I even forgot that I was scum.

[el simo]

Hi slaxx

lynch that guy who has never been lynched before. gogogo

This would be funny if I didn't get it every RVS of every game I play lol.

[el simo]

Retro the information about from the RVS often won't give us much but the information gained from the discussion that takes place because of the nonsense that goes on during the RVS gives us plenty.

[el simo]

You just completely ignored what I said, well done.

[el simo]

Thanks to his sig I Wikistudied El Simo and found out he is an alt, not just some newb.

Vote: Benmage

^Guaranteed scum right here

I registered on the site early 2006.

[el simo]

el simo who is your alt..or main?

The point of an Alt account is so that the previous meta is gone. Revealing his real identity will go directly contradict the purpose of an alt account.

El I live in New Zealand so that is GMT +12.
I've been on the site for four or so years and have had many accounts so I can't give an exact number but my guess is over 30 or so.
I've recently just ended my work contract as well so I have nothing but time all day to post, so don't mind me if I'm posting after every other post. I don't got much else to do.

It seems like el simo believes that discussion stemming from the RVS is useful. If that is the case, why don't you participate in the RVS in order to generate said discussion?

I been waiting for nice, plump bandwagon to plop my vote onto. How ever having to answer your question now defeats any purpose my bandwagon vote might have had so I might as well just go a head and

vote: ICEninja

for that. You make me sad.

You do make a good point about Retro, I feel it could very well be a slip. After playing in as many set ups as I have I really don't have a clue what to expect from my minis any more. Which makes me feel, maybe it is his lack of experience that led to him making such a confident guess?

Well the piece of the puzzle is this: I highly doubt one scum would shoot down an initial town read coming from a townie on their scumbuddy. Especially this early in the game. I'm not saying El Simo and TheLonging can't be partners, I am just saying its actually a pretty decent initial tell. Neither have done anything particularly scummy, so we'll leave it be for now.

Do you agree with my point though? And what does this tell you if Longing is scum?

@Sweep case on Slaxx; If Slaxx was gonna buddy me, he would make it much less hella obvious. The fact that he said 'I'm right' is evidence enough to prove that he was joking because there is no way he could know he is right on the second page. My only other game there was a player who was telling people to follow him without giving reason and town called it a towntell.

I have numerous problems with this. Firstly, scum don't intention buddy with their partner, mostly because it is a bad strategy but also because scum buddying is almost a natural reaction. You know who your partner is and so you take to him kindlier, you agree with him more to try have his opinion favoured hopefully manipulating the town to believe so as well, to try push false bandwagons, etc. Saying "he wouldn't

make

it" anything when referring to buddying is pretty null and void. Secondly, your argument is a logical fallacy. You are essentially say, "that is so obviously scummy he can't be scum." It is equivalent to saying, you are so townie you have to be scum.Lastly, you can't make this statement with out honestly believing that we are going to buy it. For all we know that could be exactly what you want us to think, this is called WIFOM, more commonly known as catch 22 in the real world (you are the one not from these forums, right?), and in my experience this has almost always lead me to scum. This coupled with your possible slip mentioned earlier in this post makes me rather suspicious of you right off the bat.

I feel I don't need a random vote any more. I've found a better place.

unvote, vote: Retrospective

[el simo]

Retro, you seem a little confused. There is about one line in that post that actually refers to what I said, the rest is irrelevant WIFOM nonsense.

To address that one line, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I never said that you claimed something you didn't. I stated that what you claimed was akin to what I said. You said, "If Slaxx was gonna buddy me, he would make it much less hella obvious." In other words, what he was doing is so 'hella obvious' that he can't be scum. This is a logical fallacy and full of WIFOM.

I am voting you for based on my experience with scum and this argument. The rest of you what rambled on about has nothing to do with me and is just more WIFOM.

I disagree with el simo who is attacking them for this.

I haven't done any such thing. But I agree with you about his jumpy defence and his excuse about scum numbers.

[el simo]

because scum aren't that stupid.

Don't ever do this.

[el simo]

Scum is confident

STOP DOING THIS

@el simo; Play in games are not set in stone. Players alter how they do thinks all the time. It's time you consider the entire game around you, not just very basic tells. Town uses advanced logic just as much as mafia. Instead of dismissing the argument, look at the arguement and make a decision. The act of using logic on typical mafia mindset isn't a scumtell and I find it a bit amusing that you seem to think it is.

You've lost the plot buddy.

[el simo]

You do know why I'm voting you, right? Because so far you've only defended yourself from a whole lot of things I didn't say.

[el simo]

Third Vote Count of Day 1:

[0] Benmage - [

diddin

]
[1] Slaxx - [TheLonging]
[1] Elleran - [Sweep]
[1] ICEninja - [Benmage

, el simo

]
[2] Sweep - [Elleran,

ICEninja,

Slaxx]
[2] Retrospective - [ICEninja, el simo]
[1] TheLonging - [Jase]

Names in

strikethrough text

indicate unvotes.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to achieve a lynch and to end Day 1. Deadline for this day can be found here.

Because you went on a tangent about scum buddies and other nonsense that I wasn't accusing you of. I was attacking your logic, not your actions. You realize this, right?

[el simo]

The only reason I responded to your explanation was to show you how it was wrong. I don't care who your buddy is, that's not why I'm voting you. Here, I'll quote myself again.

I am voting you for based on my experience with scum and this argument. The rest of you what rambled on about has nothing to do with me and is just more WIFOM.

I should note that 'that' argument includes WIFOM arguments.

[el simo]

I agree with the analysis that El Simo made about your post but I think the analysis is not about the correct point. El Simo, you seem to be confused with the nature of the argument I was making against Slaxx. I tried to make the point that he was buddying up to Retro and that this meant that either Slaxx was scum trying to gain a town allie or a null tell. I did not suggest that they were both scum. Here we are left with two very contradictory positions, Retro is looking very scummy with his defence but then from the original set, Retro should be town and Slaxx scum.

You all seem to be very confused about my case. It has nothing to do with who is who's scum buddy. I don't care about Slaxx and I haven't even mentioned him once in my posts, so where you guys keep getting this thing where I think they are both scum I don't know. I'll say it again, like you just said now, my case is based on the logic tht Retro used, this means his poor defence, just as you have pointed out in that quote.

el simo: You're arguing that all or most scum would stay low, be stupid, and lurk/not do anything useful while the rest of town argues with each other.

stop that

I haven't said any such thing. I've just told you to stop being stupid and assuming things about scums level of play. You are trapping yourself in your own little world of WIFOM and that is poor town play. Not only will it distract you (as we have already seen) but it's also a commonly used scum tactic so if you are town it makes you look incredibly suspicious.

1. el simo - He misunderstood the point I made about Retro as previously detailed. He makes a good narrow point about Retro and his use of WIFOM.

I would just like to reitterate. I have NOT misunderstood your point (I don't even know what it is). I was attacking Retros logic, as I've said so bloody many times now I'm getting tired of it. I haven't made one mention of who is scum buddy is and I don't really care just yet. I haven't even called him scummy yet. You guys seriously need to read over my post again because it seems none of you did and are just reading Retros response to my post which had nothing to do with my post and are just assuming I said what he said I said when really I didn't. This is really frustrating.

Why did you assume that ICE was using a gambit?

You younger players will probably not realize this but the RVS has been used as a tool for this sort of thing for as long as I can remember. You all continually say how useless it is and how any information provided from it are all null tells, but look at how much discussion it has yearned and look at how much useful information we have gathered from that. To say that the RVS is full of null is to say admit that you are a moron. It's as easy as that.

So far I think el simo has a bit of vetern syndrome and isn't actually listening to anything I say.

This is because you haven't responded to anything I've said. Just stuff you think I've said. Where you've gotten all this stuff from I have no idea but it wasn't me.

vote someone FOR A RANDOM VOTE.

There is nothing wrong with this.

Now then, someone pointed out sweeps rather baffling statement that Ices bandwagon was some sort of gambit. This is significant. Sweep is probably my top pick for scum because of it.

It's also entirely plausible. Consider, for a moment, how he even stated in his post that he was trying to move us out of the RVS. Did he not accomplish this with that post? Has he not generated a bunch of reactions and discussion? Do you think he really was serious about his read when he moved votes two posts later?

[el simo]

Retro, if you think those are walls of text, you ain't see nothing yet.

And there is no point in pressure voting if your vote doesn't not seem absolute. Am I correct to say that you are suspicious of him based on the tone that you read his posts in?

---

Seeing as you still miss my point, I will make it as clear as crystal. I've also picked up some more things so I'll throw them in too.

First of all, there is the three mafia slip. This is pretty self explanatory. For a guy who's never played a mini game before you were pretty sure about the number of scum, Slaxx didn't even mention numbers in his post so why you brought that into equation in the first place is curious. I think it is a lot more likely that if you weren't sure, being new to MS, you would've said "because you know who ALL the mafia are" and then perhaps asked how many there were.

Then as soon as you are accused of scumbuddy you slip straight into WIFOM. I'm going to explain what WIFOM is to you because I don't think you realize. WIFOM stands for Wine In Front Of Me and it derives its name from a scene in the Princess Diaries where the antagonist and protagonist confront each other in a test of silly wits. The villian sets two goblets of wine on a table, one is poisoned, one is not and the hero must choose who's to drink. His line of thought would go something like, "well obviously he'd poison my drink, so I should take his, but maybe that's what he wants me to think? So I should drink mine, but maybe THAT'S what he wants me to think so I should drink his." It's an endless argument that is commonly used by scum in many situations and is terrible anti town because it will always lead us on a wild goose chase and waste our time. This is why scum use it and this is why it's bad for the town. If you are town stop doing this sort of thing, not only is it bad logic but it's not going to save you and will only put you in more trouble. In the real world it is also referred to as a catch 22, deriving its name from Joseph Heller's brilliant novel Catch 22.

I digress. So after you are accused of buddying and so you slip straight into a scummy defence, "If Slaxx was gonna buddy me, he would make it much less hella obvious. " Which is EXACTLY what scum would want us to think! And so begins the endless game of WIFOM.

The "too townie" argument derives from the same statement. What you have said is that because it was so obvious, it can't possibly be scum buddying. This is just incorrect and a huge stretch to make in your defence. Stretches like this are scummy because scum have to stretch when they've been nabbed.

THAT is why I was voting you. Not because he said "I'm right" or you guys were joking around in the RVS I really couldn't care less about that. I'm not attacking the actions you took but the logic you used to defend yourself.

To add to this is your over reaction to my accusations and you unprovoked, "I'm not scum" claims.

[el simo]

@ el simo; Then there really isn't much more to argue. It's getting to the "OMG NO UR WRONG" state of this argument. Your whole case for me can be summed up into one thing: Playstyle. You're unfamiliar with the way I play, so you immediately amuse I'm scum. We obviously have a different opinion on how players play. Have you forgotten this is my second game in this meta? It's also a bit ironic that your whole case against me is is literally "I don't think you're arguments are good enough" when your argument isn't any better and completely baseless. It's one thing for your type of argument to be the cherry on top of a a bunch of actual damning points, but this is your whole case and is actually a bit amusing. Either pick through my play with a fine tip comb and try to find something LEGITIMATELY scummy, or pick someone else to tunnel on. It's gettin' old.

And this is the last time I will address my

"scumslip"

because it's bullshit and if you're gonna vote on that, then you deserve to lose and I'll welcome it as a ticket out of this game. Sure I could've left out the number three. Why don't you focus on that more and ignore what's going on around you more. Real impressive play.

Playstyle is not an excuse for scummy behaviour. I'm not going to treat you any different because you are new. If you wanted that treatment you should have signed up for a newbie game, who knows maybe I'd have been your IC.

[el simo]

DH replaced in?

This game just got that much better

How about you do something for once.

[el simo]

Nice AtE and OMGUS btw.

[el simo]

If you can't even keep your emotions in order you shouldn't be playing this game.

[el simo]

Siiigh nice ad hominem btw.

[el simo]

I've given those, but mr veteran here likes to tunnel and not address anyone else in the thread other than me.

Yah because I've been trying to pry a response out of you that actually confronts what I said about you. I wasn't going to stop on you until you gave me a proper response to what I was actually accusing you of, not the nonsense you gave me instead. But now that I've made it as clear I can it seems you don't have one and instead just choose to cry, so my vote will stay on you until I find someone better.

[el simo]

Geez DH, way to label your read through. Now I know exactly who said what!

I agree with your read on diddin. Sweep and ICE I am going to have to reread.

I've given those, but mr veteran here likes to tunnel and not address anyone else in the thread other than me.

Yah because I've been trying to pry a response out of you that actually confronts what I said about you. I wasn't going to stop on you until you gave me a proper response to what I was actually accusing you of, not the nonsense you gave me instead. But now that I've made it as clear I can it seems you don't have one and instead just choose to cry, so my vote will stay on you until I find someone better.

This just says you're not reading because I've answered every little "omg i don't like how you play" argument you've thrown at me.

You're really bad at reading tense.

Diddin, nice parrot. You're helping DH out a lot with that post.

Will reread later for reads on ICE and Sweep.

[el simo]

You also have a poor memory because:

Perhaps I drew the wrong conclusion

and then after that you still missed my point. When you finally DID get my point, you just cried and said I'm stupid.

[el simo]

When you need to read through 7 pages, you don't bother with the labeling...

Just skim through. Like me. =3

Try rereading an 140 page mini for the endgame analysis..

[el simo]

Also, it's true, your post number has been higher than ICE's but the overall value of your posts have been much lower. His arguments have been his own. Almost everything you've said this game has been recycled from something that ICE or el simo has said. That's why I'm a bit confused why Slaxx said you were valuable to town because you're pretty much just a summary el simo and ICE.

This is a very interesting point and I will have to reread him for this. I'm sorry I didn't get it done yesterday, but quite honestly, it's cause I was playing WoW.

El simo, what do ya think of Eleran?

I will add this to my reread.

Retro, I don't even know how to start with you. I'll add that to my reread.

[el simo]

ICE: Has come under a lot of pressure for his 'weak' cases. Was given a lot of strop because of his first post, attacking someone during the RVS. What gives away his intentions in this post is the comment he made before he commented on Retro. "and that the only way the RVS becomes helpful is when someone makes a vote or accusation that isn't actually all that random." He then goes on to make an accusation that isn't random and isn't misplaced imo either. To me this is a valid reason for his vote and it definitely did bring us out of the RVS. I don't see anything scummy from this. He was also attacked because of building a "weak case" against Retro based on the slip. How ever notice that he didn't vote you because of the slip, he voted you after you tried to defend your slip. He, like me and a few others, didn't buy your defence. This isn't scummy to me either. Has also been attacked because he is lurking, but to me it looks a lot more like inactivity as to lurking. The few posts he did make were good posts where he brought new content to the discussion, not just posting every now and again saying sorry I'll post later and then just parroting information. I definitely don't find him scummy, but he hasn't posted enough for me to book him as a townie yet either.

---

Diddin: Posts are few and far between and don't contain much information. Hasn't provided anything new to discussion and as DH said is just parroting. This quote made me want to cry:

After a full readthrough I find the slaxx/Retro buddying to be too blatant to come from scumbuddies. If one of them flips scum the other is probably town tbh.

There is so much wrong with this I'm almost sure I don't even have to explain myself. Not only is the logic full of fallacies but it's a real poor attempt to clear someone in the event of a scum flip. If Diddin flips scum I'd be a lot more suspicious of Retro and Slaxx. He has the time to suck up to DH but doesn't have the time to do a proper read on the game and provide us with some more insight. His last post was just blatant copy cat. Very scummy read.

---

Sweep: Got a bit of pressure for his random generator vote. I've done this before as town myself so it doesn't strike me as very suspicious. I know ICE attacked him for it but when I did it as town I also got attacked for it so that doesn't really make me suspicious of ICE either. I maintain my views about ICEs vote. If I recall correctly he was accused of parroting, but he was the one to bring up the Slaxx/Retro buddying. Not that I agree with him that they were buddying, but he definitely wasn't parroting this information and I can see how he came to this conclusion, so it doesn't strike me as suspicious. It also gave me a great opportunity to get some reads on Retro, which I'll get to later. Just like ICE and Retro did, he got confused about my case against Retro. I believe this is mostly due to Retros reaction to my vote, which lead them to believe I was voting him for the reasons Retro stated, which I've made clear several times now that I most certainly was not. It's from his fourth post where he starts to smell to me. Posts are short and irrelevant, starts parroting information, does a really poor iso and all the players, but I think he improves after that. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was the one who first claimed that ICEs vote on him was a gambit? If so +town points for him. His defence is claimed to be weak but he raises some very good points. You can't read into tone of posts because these are things you make up in your head. To get an unbiased read you HAVE to ignore any sort of emotion you might associate with someones post when you read them. This is something Retro clearly struggles to do and I think it is confusing his read. His last part of his last post sums up my feelings pretty well about Retro, but I'll get to that later. My read on Sweep isn't clear, I've seen some scum but I've also seen some town. Neutral for now.

---

Elleran:This was easy. Elleran is guilty of a classic scum tell I call actively lurking. It's when scum post often enough to not get prodded, but posts always contain very little information, mostly just parroted, and lots of I'm sorry I'll post later. It's an easy way to go by unnoticed and to get the town arguing between themselves. Very scummy read.

---

Retro: Oh boy... Seeing as I've discussed you so much this is only going to address your last few posts, beginning with #173.

This posts shows me that you seem to firmly believe that I am voting you because of your playstyle. You need to grow up here and realize that playstyle is not an excuse for poor logic and scummy behaviour. It's like an artist saying, "oh but that's my style" when he is being criticised on something he's done wrong. WIFOM is not a playstyle, logical fallacies are not "advanced logic" that I don't understand, they are well documented errors in arguments that are often used by scum to try make cases out of nothing or try defend themselves when they can't. You also did not address my points because everytime you tried to defend yourself you got so hung up on the scum buddy relationship mentioned by Sweep that you seemed to forget why I was even voting for you. You didn't address my accusations against your logic and when I finally pin pointed it you just gave up, had a cry and called me stupid. This IS scummy. It's called an attack on the player and it is used by scum to try discredit someone's argument by demeaning the person who made it.

As for post #190, I can give you my views on the rest of your reads if you want, but until requested I'm just going to focus on the ones that bother me.

Your reads are biased. You can not say that someone is town because they think you are town and that someone is scum because they think you are scum. Not only is it full of WIFOM but it makes it oh so easy for scum to manipulate you. Now scum know how you think and know that if they want to lose a vote the best way to go about it is to tell you they think you are town. Through out the post you constantly complain about how we find your slip scummy, but this is not the truth. As we have said numerous times, it is your defence of your slip that we found scummy. No one had even voted you until you tried to defend the claims made against you. You also claim that Slaxx felt less townie to you because he took too long to say your slip was a null tell. This is another logical fallacy called burden of proficiency, which is when a player doesn't live up to the expectations held of them and are therefore viewed as scummy.

Oh yay, your read on me.

You claim my arguments are canned, that I've come into this game with prepared cases and I'm trying to make them fit. I would love to know how you can make this read on someone, it seems to be something that is very difficult to prove and incredibly subjective as it could be said about anyone really.

You claim I'm using buzz words to disregard peoples arguments. That I'm trying to discredit the source of the entire town. I would like you to quote me to prove that I'm am discrediting the entire town. There will be consequences if you can't, but I can only get to that after you've quoted me.

You claim that you DID answer all my accusations. This is a blatant lie. The made ONE statement that was relevant at the beginning of your first defence, the rest of it had nothing to do with what I said. You even stated so yourself that you came to the wrong conclusion about my posts. The ONLY time you addressed me was after I had poked you round enough where you didn't actually address the arguments and just instead said I was wrong. Again, I would like you to quote yourself where you answered my points about your use of logical fallacies, because not once you did. You just repeatedly talked about your relationship with Slaxx and the RVS which had nothing to do with my case.

You also repeated use words like, "sorta" and "sometimes" and "kinda" to try and refute my points against you. This is nonsense, you have clearly displayed text book tells and to say they "sorta kinda" fit something that scum do "sometimes" is rubbish. These are well documented, classic scum tells. To disregard them as something scum "sometimes" do is to disregard the entire history of mafiascum.net and many other sources of mafia. I find it unbelievable that instead of trying to refute the arguments made against you, you just tell us that these undeniable scum that have been well used and well developed through the entire history of this game, is just not scummy and is instead "straight forward discussions about typical scum behaviour that shows me and Slaxx aren't buddies" which AGAIN goes on to complain about a point that has nothing to do with my case on you.

You constantly refer to the wiki as if it doesn't mean anything, but what you don't realize is the only reason I linked the wiki was because you weren't addressing my arguments and that made me think that perhaps you didn't know what WIFOM was and hadn't heard of these logical fallacies. I was NOT using it to back up my argument, I don't need to, everybody knows about WIFOM and can name almost all the logical fallacies listed in the wiki, I linked it for YOU so that you could stop rambling on and would address my accusations. You even go as far as to try discredit the wiki! The mafiascum.net bible it self! You are absolutely correct that it is a written by users, this means if someone writes something that isn't wrong someone else is going to go in and fix it. The wiki is full proof and I challenge to make a thread in mafia discussions proving that something in that wiki is wrong. I am 100% certain that you will be shot down in every attempt.

You now try to flip it back on me, and claim I'm not responding to you. And this is absolutely true, because I'm not going to respond to something that is completely irrelevant to me. You did NOT address your use of logical fallacies, you just continually rambled on about your relationship with Slaxx and the RVS, both of which have nothing to do with my case.

You also claim that I used WIFOM to argue against you. This is incorrect, there is nothing WIFOMy about scum not conscientiously realizing they are buddying up. I actually laughed at this trying to figure out your line of though, "but scum would WANT us to think they don't conscientiously buddy up with their partners!"

Also, the difference between you and those quotes you made, you're trying to defend yourself with this nonsense, they're not. They were also pretty small one liners that added to their cases, they weren't their entire cases like yours are.

---

Now to summarise.

My initial vote on Retro was more of a pressure vote than anything and the only reason I left it on him was because he had not yet addressed my argument on him. But his continual over reactions, inability to address my case and continual use logical fallacies to not only defend himself but to clear others as townie as well has made my vote a bit more firm. I'm leaving it on him for now but quote honestly it could easily swing over to either:

Diddin, what stood out to me more than his lurking and parroting was that quote I posted above. If he flips scum I am definitely going to place an irremovable vote on Retro.

And Elleran, typical scummy fence sitter. This tell has proved to be very accurate for me in the past. My strike rate with this tell is second only to something else which I won't mention because I look forward to catching scum with it later.

---

Everybody else: Town reads on DH, neutral on Slaxx, Iamnobody, Benmage and Jase need to post more.

---

Siigh more posts were made as I wrote this. I will address those later.

Mod ~ Fixed a hr tag.

[el simo]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

[el simo]

EBWOP

I am the most suspicious of Sweep at the moment because of his last post where he implied that ICE was town even though he hasn't supplied any evidence to support this. I think this might have been a bit of a slip. Perhaps Sweep as mafia knows that ICE isn't a partner. If you look at the tone in his last post its pretty obvious that he doesn't think ICE is mafia.

This is a good point. He did seem pretty sure that I'm town, and hasn't said anything about actually having a town read on me. had he mentioned something to the effect that he found my posts to imply town that is one thing, but he simply made the assumption. This is to be considered.[/quote]

This is wrong. In post #123 he clearly states:

The case against me was utter crap by ICE and must have been a gambit to draw out some scum looking for a bandwagon.

For once I actually don't like this from simo. I feel like Retro has indeed responded to everything we have brought forth to him to the best of his ability. I do believe he's responded as town Retro would have. This doesn't wipe away our points against him, but you're definitely being more aggressive than need be.

I would like you to quote where Retro has addressed his use of logical fallacies, prior to #156 where he finally addresses it by calling me stupid.

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

[el simo]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

100% yes.

Care to explain?

[el simo]

Oh absolutely I agree, for the most part. WIFOM on it's own doesn't amount to much (I have one exception that I'm keeping for later). But the thing about this specific situation is a) there is a lot more to him than just WIFOM and b) the WIFOM was his defence before anybody even accused him of using WIFOM. To me a WIFOM defence (that is, before being accused of it) is as good as saying, you know what you're right, you've caught me I'm scum, gg.

[el simo]

Cause i thought you accuse and vote him in post 71, and his defense than comes in post 74...I am also not aware of yet, or recalling the other things he is guilty of.

Aah. I accuse him of WIFOM in post 71 regarding his WIFOM defence in #69.

I think perhaps we misunderstood each other. You were talking about someone who uses WIFOM and then is accused of it and has to defend using more WIFOM, or someone who accuses some of WIFOM defend from another argument and then uses it to defend further?

[el simo]

Siiigh ignore that post.. I need a break.

[el simo]

Slaxx I will gladly vote Ell if the times calls for it, but right now I think we have a lot more things to discuss and I think my vote is better placed else where.

[el simo]

I am not appealing to anyone emotionally

You're appealing to the town out of anger.

[el simo]

I don't get how being angry at someone who is tunneling is appealing to the town. I get how its emotion. I don't get how its manipulating anyone else's.

"then I would encourage the town to take a STRONG look at you tomorrow"

[el simo]

I play mafia to have fun. And to be completely honest, I'm considering dropping out because this shit isn't fun. I'm sure you guys are gonna use that last statement to twist your way into yet another bullshit argument saying I must want to quit because I'm scum, but at this point, I'm finding it hard to even care what you guys think of me anymore. And to be completely honest, the only reason stopping me from dropping out now is because it would be unfair to whoever takes my place because all of you have it ingrained into your minds that I'm scum. If I do decide to drop out, I'd appreciate it if you guys would give whoever takes my spot a chance. I'm going to give it another day, but I'm sorry to ICE and slaxx if I do leave.

Do you drop out of every game when someone calls you scum? Alignment regardless this shows an enormous lack of maturity. You made a commitment to this game and now you want out because it isn't going the way you want it to. Grow up before you /in for your next game please.

I'm going to urge you to take the same neutrality that you made that first paragraph with when you read the rest of this post.

My first post on the defensive was #69. Normally I would make a joke about the number, but I'm really not in the mood.
[One thing I just noticed from rereading, Ell didn't like me saying ICE was town so soon. Improbable scumbuddies seeing as I doubt mafia would have a problem with town clearing their partner.]
I defended Sweep's case on Slaxx because I thought it was terribad. I know you guys don't want me to make playstyle arguements. But on EM games, the first minute or so it is usually just a chatroom where people mess around and crack little jokes with their friends. After that it usually starts getting serious. [At least for day starts]. This is consistent with my play with Slaxx as you should probably see. Anyway, his argument saying that Slaxx was hardcore buddying I felt was premature and simiply wrong. I explained it to the best of my ability. Perhaps my logic was wifom, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Saying that Slaxx was scum buddying me was wrong and I needed to get the point across. Moving on...

This is all fine and dandy. But you need to realize even if your WIFOM is true it is still bad for the town. You can not use logic like that with out distracting the town. This is why I found it scummy.

On my second day on this site, I was looking around at the mafia discussion and there was a topic that was centered around if you're town do you tell the truth even if it isn't the best argument. The general concenus was yes, and this is exactly what I did. I responded to ICE to the best of my ability. You may not like it, but I was fooling around and made an assumption, that was all that there was.

The part we don't like is the part you said you were fooling around. Had you claimed something that was as confident as your first guess there wouldn't have been a problem. It's the backpedal that makes it seem like a slip. This can't be argued anymore than it has as it is subjective to each persons read I guess.

Next one was post #74.
There's nothing to improve upon here. I was correct in my arguments and I still stand by everything I said.
Same goes for #95, I explained my first hard townread here as well.

#74 was fine until you started talking about your relationship with Slaxx, that has nothing to do with me case. I mentioned that in my post.
#95 I agree with the first point of 95 but I don't like the rest of it. You defence of TL is wifomy (how do you know scum TL doesn't want you to think that? etc) and you tell me that your use of fallacious arguments is advanced logic that I don't understand. That is nonsense and doesn't address my argument against you.

The rest was just meaningless bickering between us as to if my case was full of wifom and why you were positive wifom is scum's game. I still disagree with you. Anyway, I'm not exactly seeing how my defence was so weak. Perhaps I should've sat there and thought on how best to answer the scumslip argument. But I went with truthfulness.

It's more so that it wasn't relevant to my case. The only time you came close to arguing my points was when you said that I didn't understand your advanced logic.

I keep seeing the same words come up over and over against about why I'm so scummy, it's generally saying that I use wifom and that you guys feel my defense was weak. Perhaps it's because I wrote it and knew exactly what I meant, but I don't see how my defences could lead to a scumread. I honestly believe that mafia saw town pushing on someone and hopped on.

It is because WIFOM is scummy. You HAVE to come to realize this if you wish to continue playing on this site, if you don't you will get pegged for it every game you play that perhaps isn't a newbie game.

Retro, believe it or not, when I initially placed my vote on you it was no more serious than ICEs first vote. The only reason I kept it on you for so long was because you didn't address my case against you and instead insisted on talking about scum buddy relationships that wasn't relative and held no bearing on my argument. The longer this went on the more you stuffed up. I don't want you to replace out because I know you'll join another mini and you'll get pegged for the same thing. You HAVE to understand, that maybe these types of arguments were ok on your last forum but from what I've seen mafiascum.net is the pinnacle of mafia performance and over here this type of argument just doesn't hold. Every game I have EVER played I have always attacked WIFOM and have had a very good success rate with it.

I will unvote you because I feel everything that can be said about the matter has been said, and because I don't want you to replace out of the game just to go and do the same thing in another game. I'd rather you learn here.

unvote:

If you still refuse to listen and continue to use fallacious arguments I will put that vote back on, because it is a scummy thing.

If you are town, I suggest you take my advice seriously and stop before posting anything again and think to yourself, "Would he as scum want me to be thinking that?" Because chances are if you can answer that in the affirmative it's gonna be suspicious.

At this point I'm more suspicious of Diddin and Elleran anyway. Retro has been consistent enough with his scumminess for me to know that it is more likely alack of experience on MS.net than it is scum trying to manipulate us.

For now I'll leave my vote off, I can't really decide between the two just yet.

[el simo]

Also, I like the idea of ranking everyone 1-10 about their scummiest. Anyone else interested in trying it....Without a wall of text? I'm not ready to try it yet. It's difficult to digest 11 pages sometimes.

Nothxplz.

Gives scum to much info for their night kills.

[el simo]

Retro thats the great thing about saying you have a gut scum read on someone

A) You don't have to explain it
B) You dont have to commit to it

That's why it is scummy.

Haven't really been following the bickering going on lately will catch up on Slaxx vs Ell tomorrow morning.

[el simo]

I'm not going to defend myself because bandwagons during RVS arent scumtells.

Saying this COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of the RVS.

More later making lunch,

[el simo]

Rereading over TL and Slaxx, I remain unconvinced that Slaxx is scum. Slaxx' Sweep vote was obviously fishing for reactions, he placed the third vote in quick succession on someone with no reason after talking about a completely different subject. I've done this thousands of times and in fact was about to do it until ICE called me out on why I wasn't voting where I had to reveal my intentions. If anything, Slaxx gets town points for this.

Having said that, this makes it an obvious RVS vote, which makes TL's case on ICE pretty hypocritical and thus scummy. Having different standards for other players to yourself is a sign of scum looking a bit too hard. He claims ICE is scummy for pushing a weak case so early (albeit obviously just a push to get us out of RVS) yet his cases are even weaker.

Regarding Ell and did, Ell has improved his game since we applied the pressure, diddin has not.

vote: diddin

[el simo]

Quite simple really, I thought he was scummy for active lurking. He is now posting a lot more, thus less scummy. I'll have to reread his cases though I didn't really give it much thought at the time - was looking for something else.

[el simo]

You

are a great scum lynch for the day.

Anyone else notice this? Other than that I maintain my position that Ells game has picked up. Bad case =! scummy! We put pressure on him for actively lurking and he started posting more. If he continued to lurk than I'd have voted him but since our pressure got the desired results I don't see why I should vote Ell.

Quite simple really, I thought he was scummy for active lurking. He is now posting a lot more, thus less scummy. I'll have to reread his cases though I didn't really give it much thought at the time - was looking for something else.

He was called out for active lurking. You'd think he WOULD pick up the posting if he got some heat for it.

Naturally. That doesn't make his improved post rate less scummy.

Also it bothers me that you would vote without truly looking into a player further than just post count.

It shouldn't. If someone's lack of a post count is why I found them scummy, posting more would make them less suspicious.

Might switch to Ell depending on a few things.

Way to be vague and set up a band wagon vote.

Ugh. I'm getting so tired of people going on about Ices RVS wagon. It was a pretty standard move. Just shut up about it and go do something useful.

Anyways, I'm still waiting on TL.

Now here is someone that's gone by largely unnoticed. You are about just as guilty as Ell when it comes to active lurking, your saving grace is that your content has been better, but it is still minimal.

unvote:
vote: Jase

Until I can make up my mind about diddin and Ell.

[el simo]

We put pressure on him for actively lurking

We? Who is this "we"? I put a vote on him for quite a few reasons, and none of them were active lurking. Did you read my case against him? How do you feel about it?

Myself, Slaxx and numerous other people who had posted that he was definitely scummy.

Quite simple really, I thought he was scummy for active lurking. He is now posting a lot more, thus less scummy.

Naturally. That doesn't make his improved post rate less scummy.

Before him posting more made him less scummy. Now it doesn't? Please explain this contradiction.

Believe it or not, this is just a slip up on my part. Even now as a read over this I originally typed that you are confused and that both of these quotes say that he is posting more and thus less scummy. I just tried to think about what I mean to say instead of less scummy but nothing that makes sense come to mind lol. But I meant when I wrote that how ever is that just because we applied pressure doesn't discount for the fact that he is posting more now and therefore less scummy.

Until I can make up my mind about diddin and Ell.

You know, actually reading Ell's posts instead of counting them might give you a better idea of where you stand on him.

I have read it and I'm not sure where I stand about it. Give me some time.

[el simo]

EVeryone's bagging me about not making my mind up about Ell, this is mostly because I don't think the case on him is all that solid. For instance:

I had voted for Slaxx because of his angry responses. It was a real reason that I have evidence for. (just check Slaxx's posts recently prior to my vote on him)

How does having angry responses equate to scum?

How does voting someone for being angry equate to scum? <- this is what I don't get and why I haven't placed my vote on her. Her case is bad, but I've seen plenty of bad cases in my time here. TL's case was just as bad as Ell's but no one is voting him and calling him out as scum. You are voting her based on something that is entirely subjective and may appear inconsistent depending on each players varying views. I will vote Ell if I think the case on him is solid, until I come to a conclusion about him, you're not getting nada from me and I'd rather vote Jase to get him posting more.

[el simo]

How does voting someone for being angry equate to scum?

Because it's bad reasoning?

So why haven't we hung up Retro yet? Or most of the other players in this game? Bad reasoning doesn't make someone scummy, it just makes them bad.

[el simo]

You just contradicted yourself in one sentence, well done.

[el simo]

^ for diddin

[el simo]

it didn't seem to strong, but I don't see anything else more appealing.

Mmm scum points for Ben.

Making lunch I'll post my final thoughts on Ell when I'm done.

[el simo]

"It's not for the poor case," "he flopped off an OMGUS and moved to an

even worse

case."

Eliminating your contradiction, you are voting him for an OMGUS. Hardly grounds for a lynching.

There are two things in ICEs post that I agree with, that is the back peddling and the inconsistency/double standards. The rest of it is about a poorly thought out case and a bunch of what is imo are misunderstanding which I think are null tells. I feel everyone who is voting him for having bad reasoning are hypocritical and by their own logic should all be lynched for voting someone with bad reasons. Someone who parrots others and places a quick vote or hammer on someone is scummy. Someone who puts the first vote on someone based on poor reasons is just not a good mafia player (not meant to be offensive Ell, just trying to differentiate).

How ever, having double standards for myself and Slaxx is inconsistent logic and as I've said before in this game inconsistency is scummy. The backpeddle on his vote for Slaxx is also of concern. He obviously had little faith in his case. Also, what everyone else seems to miss is what I think was a scum lynch. "You are a great candidate for a scum lynch today," doesn't make sense to me coming form a townies mouth. Scum want to lynch townies, so why is diddin a good candidate for a scum lynch?

I'll hammer when the time comes, but until I'd rather keep my vote on Jase. He needs to post more.

[el simo]

IAmNobody has posted way less.

Want to hassle him too?

This is fitting together so nicely.

Sure do but I only got one vote, so until the hammer, it's staying on Jase.

I'm not going to put my vote on Elleran until he makes another appearance.

el simo; I'm gonna summarize your last post.
First two setnences: You guys are so wrong
First big paragraph: ICE is sorta right but Ell isn't mafia and you guys are all wrong
Second big paragraph: Ell is mafia but everyone is still wrong

At this point, I'm pretty sure Elleran is a mafia power role. I feel like you're giving up on defending Elleran, but trying to save yourself with defending your old case.

This is a nice misrep.

it didn't seem to strong, but I don't see anything else more appealing.

Mmm scum points for Ben.

Making lunch I'll post my final thoughts on Ell when I'm done.

Got more on this?

Sure do. You just read through the entire game. You didn't find anybody else scummier? You have nothing to say about any other people? You are happy with just lynching Ell even though it doesn't convince you too well just because nobody else appeals more? In situations like that I tend not to vote rather than vote the biggest bandwagon.

[el simo]

Why Jase and not IAmNobody?

Mostly because I'm expecting him to be replaced.

[el simo]

Pressure him all you want I'm am fairly certain we'll see him replaced before he even realises you were trying to get him to post more.

[el simo]

El simo, in post 350 you say you’re willing to hammer El? Is that true?

I am also curious about this.

No actually, I wouldn't hammer, it was all just a ploy!

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it?

Anyway, I actually feel he has sufficiently explained his double standard on aggressiveness. ICE seems to feel that it hasn't be explained sufficiently but I disagree. In fact I believe you are being quite misleading here. After rereading I realised Ell referred to me as aggressive, he referred to Slaxx as serious and fiery with the serious part reading to me as an obv Batman joke/reference (ie not that serious). You interpreted this as aggressive and we all just sort of went with it but I feel their are distinct differences. Fiery clearly implies what Ell has explained, at that being more so of his mood and 'tone' of posts, where as aggressive implies more so style of play. This matches Ells explanation just perfectly and I feel there is no double standards being played here. I actually struggle to understand your point on this matter and fine your misleading use of the word aggressive quite scummy. Scum points for ICE!

For me this only leaves the scum lynch statement and back peddling, which leads me to taking back my statement that I would hammer Ell. I no longer feel confident in his lynch and I feel we're being pulled by the end of the nose here just a little bit. I will have to do a reread on ICEs case later this evening to see how many other misreps there are.

[el simo]

I love how you are only paying attention to people who attack Ell and easy targets like Jase. It makes me feel so warm and fuzzy and RIGHT inside.

And you aren't?

I don’t like el simo’s wishy-washy passive play. He talks about thinking between diddin and Elleran while basically placing a holding vote on Jase. One vote doesn’t do anything…one vote isn’t pressure; it certainly doesn’t show an interest to lynch or real pressure when you claim it as a pressure vote.

Jase do X (x being post more)
Jase does X
Vote gone

It’s not very impressive play. Instead of taking a harder position he does the easy thing of saying he’ll hammer….If he wanted to hammer why not just vote? Basically if others showed a stronger interest you set yourself up for an easy hop on.

As a more experienced player you should know one vote isn’t pressure. Claiming it a pressure vote virtually nullifies what you’re trying to accomplish. Not to mention there are also other less-contributing guilty parties.

Unvote vote el simo

How lovely. Note that I never said it was a pressure vote. I even called him out as being scummy. He still isn't giving us much so my vote is still on him and Ell has defended himself sufficiently from the strongest thing we had on him which was the double standards. I'm not lynching someone because they regretted a stupid vote and they said someone was a good candidate for a scum lynch.

[el simo]

Oh and this/

[el simo]

IE: Ben just misrepped what I said and what wishy washy and used them as reasons to vote me.

[el simo]

EBWOP:
IE: Ben just misrepped what I said and what wishy washy means and used them as reasons to vote me.

[el simo]

You are about just as guilty as Ell when it comes to active lurking

Elleran: ...actively lurking.... Very scummy read.

Seems like a pressure vote to me. As the only reason why you're voting him is because you want content.

Really?

Which is the main reason why we're on at L-1 right now.

But we're not at L-1??

MOD: votecount plz?

Yes! The wiki returns! Also, just because you're not changing you're vote doesn't mean you're not being wishy washy. You're doing the exact same thing as described in the wiki but with yours words rather than your votes. Ben didn't misrep anything. I feel like I should iso how many times you've said that his game.

I've voted two people this entire game. The wiki specifically refers repeatedly unvoting and voting a player through out the day, or with your 'interpretation' repeatedly changing my mind about him, which I've done once. I stated my reasons why I found him scummy and he's refuted them all pretty damned well. I specifically explained myself in each situation and so far no ones disputed anything I said about it, yet it is still wishy washy?

Oh and this/

Lol, I've never seen this link but my use of the term was similar to that of being noncommittal rather than vote hopping.

Then I'd rather you say noncommittal rather than wishy washy, just to avoid confusion in the future plz.

[el simo]

And if we are at L-1 it refutes Bens case all together. He claims I changed my mind about hammering because the case wasn't picking up steam, but if he is in fact at L-1 then pretty much Ben has no case on me.

[el simo]

The fact that Slaxx seems to think we are at L-1 but still agrees with Ben baffles me.

[el simo]

Dude, I didn't say any of that. What the hell are you trying to do exactly?

What?

[el simo]

Check your quote tags.

Oh that was a Retro post, weird. I didn't change any of the tags in the quotes.. How did they come up with your name?

Sorry everything I directed at Slaxx was meant for Retro. Geez no surprise here, I was quite shocked to see that logic coming from you tbh, Slaxx.

In that case, what are you thoughts on Ben and Retros case?

[el simo]

Nope.

[el simo]

And what logic? I quoted some of your posts where you very clearly stated you were voting him so he'd post. There's absolutely no debatable logic about that. You lied and now you're trying to push a reason into your old vote to justify yourself.

No, you're wrong, in both areas. As usual, you're talking about the wrong point. The logic was referring to how you think I'm doing what the wiki says about being wishy washy, just with words instead of votes, not the pressure voting thing.

As for the pressure voting thing. GEEZ RETRO, THINK FOR ONCE IN THIS GAME. I clearly stated suspicion of Jase, that I was voting him on the premise of actively lurking. WANTING SOMEONE TO POST MORE DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT SUSPICIOUS OF THEM OR THAT MY VOTE IS JUST A PRESSURE VOTE, IT JUST MEANS I WANT THEM TO POST MORE, YOU KNOW, SO I CAN GET AN ACCURATE READ ON THEM. I STILL want Jase to post more and I won't move it until he posts more, and even then, unless he gives me reason to believe he is not scum in those posts, my vote will remain.

[el simo]

So my point on you simo is accurate. Your one PRESSURE vote is worthless. It doesn't do anything on its own, and any worth or persuasion it might've held is completely diminished when you state your just waiting for him to post more.

One can demand content and still do something worthwild with their vote.

Moar simo votes.

Like vote a bandwagon you aren't even convinced by?

[el simo]

And it's NOT a pressure vote if I am voting him based on my suspicions. You can't twist this. He is actively lurking, this is scummy, thus I vote.

[el simo]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

[el simo]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

IE putting a vote that puts someone at L-1 during RVS to fish out reactions and move on from RVS. Not putting your vote on someone because you find them scummy. Wanting them to post more is just a by product of your suspicion.

[el simo]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

IE putting a vote that puts someone at L-1 during RVS to fish out reactions and move on from RVS. Not putting your vote on someone because you find them scummy. Wanting them to post more is just a by product of your suspicion.

Is this an example? Could you provide another example of a pressure vote because I have never seen an rvs wagon brought to L-1 just to end the rvs.

See: my last game. I was the wagon too.

[el simo]

ICE just gave me some lovely information to work with, but before I get to him I will answer Ben and Sweep.

Sweep I had an answer t your question but I realized i caught me with my own logic. So instead of arguing a losing battle I'll admit the pressure aspect of must vote. How ever, unlike Ben implies, the pressure was not the reason for my vote and was only a by product of my suspicion. This is why I claim it isn't a pressure vote.

There is not much else I can argue. I can argue technicalities with you all day (such as the incorrect use of the term wishy washy) but at the end of the day I was non committal.

So what it comes down to is Bens word over mine. Either you think my intent to hammer was scummy or you believe it for what it really was, which was what I posted it as. Regardless of your views between me and Ben, there is absolutely no way you can believe what ICE has said, for I will now reveal how much crap he has been throwing around for the second time today.

Firstly, there was the Retro case. That had some decent steam, and some really good points. Retro refutes some points, but is simply incapable of answering to others. The case pointed Retro at having a good likelihood of flipping scum, and still does. Nothing changed between then and now, and yet simo seems to have completely forgotten the case. He unvoted Retro simply because Retro AtE'd and complained his vote off of him. I unvoted Retro because I found another player who I felt was scummier. Simo hasn't had a single case against anyone since he unvoted Retro.

I unvoted Retro to focus my attention else where, my views have not changed about him and he is still my favourite lynch today.

Now he's had this

wishy-washy

(don't try to tell me through the wiki that you haven't been) stance on Elleran. First Elleran isn't posting much, and simo votes him for active lurking. It was a pressure vote, because as soon as Elleran started posting, despite the fact that it was horribly scummy, simo unvoted. Simo obviously hadn't really read Elleran's posts very much, because simo had no clue what his opinon of Elleran was.

This is where the fluff starts. For starters, the only two people I have voted all day have been Retro and Jase, with a vote on diddin holding while I read up more about Ell. Not once have I voted Ell, so not once have I unvoted him either. Where you get this lovely information from, I don't know, but as I showed earlier it isn't the first time you made stuff up in your cases. I quick ISO read will reveal this to be the real truth.

Then he decided that he'll hammer Elleran later. He didn't tell us why, or talked about what he agreed with or disagreed with, despite a large amount of pressure on simo to do so. Finally he states that one of my points against Elleran is weak or invalid or something, and therefore the entire case against Elleran is invalid, and continues to pursue Jace.

He then continues. Apparently I never explained my statement, nor did state who I agreed with or who I disagreed with. This is absolute bollocks. I read through ICEs case and made a post with it, stating what I did and what I didn't agree with and THAT is when I came to the conclusion that I found Ell scummy enough for my hammer, but Jase had posted just before and I noticed his activity levels were some what lacking, so I decided to park my vote there until I could get a better read from him. See post #350 for this. Not only that but I repeatedly stated to the town why I found their cases weak. See post #339 for example.

He's held his vote on Elleran until Elleran started posting. Regardless of the content, simo unvoted. He now has his vote on Jace, and has declared that he wont unvote until Jace puts forward some arbitrary posting quota. Later, simo puts in a stipulation that Jace needs to post something to make him feel like he is town in order to get the unvote. This was clearly not the case with Elleran.

More lies, I didn't even vote Ell and it is another lovely misrepresentation. The reason why I didn't vote Ell is because yes, he posted more, and at first I just went with that and put my vote on Diddin, but in my vote I even stated that this was a placer vote until I got a reread on them. When I did finally reread I stated my conclusion and said I would hammer when the time comes. It is only fair that I hold the same standards towards Jace, so naturally I will review his content once his starts posting more and use that to come to the conclusion. Until then, he stays scummy.

Why is there a discrepancy in the way simo is treating Elleran and Jace? He felt/feels that active lurking is scummy. Simo obviously feels that Jace's active lurking is the single most damning scum tell in the game right now, because his vote on Jace is

obviously

not a pressure vote, guys. It's a weak L-6 vote on a low post count player attempting to get him to post more and will be removed once said player makes some decent posts.

No, it is a vote that is based of my suspicion of his, "I'm going to post only just enough to not get replaced" activity level. I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it.

The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

This is compounded by the fact that he's ignored my inquiry about his current feelings on Retro.

Huh? When did I do this? Why is it scummy?

Either or, there has not been a word of truth from this post, and it alone is enough to warrant my vote. ICE has clearly made up a lot of rubbish about me in order to gain the towns favour and vote, appropriately hopping from the last biggest band wagon to the next and has done it for the second time today. I am surprised no one else noticed this yet.

vote: ICEninja

[el simo]

Retro, you on a roll buddy. Not a good one either.

Sweep I had an answer t your question but I realized

i caught me with my own logic. So instead of arguing a losing battle I'll admit the pressure aspect of must vote. How ever, unlike Ben implies, the pressure was not the reason for my vote and was only a by product of my suspicion.This is why I claim it isn't a pressure vote.

There is not much else I can argue.

I can argue technicalities with you all day (such as the incorrect use of the term wishy washy) but at the end of the day I was non committal.

I bolded for emphasis.

In my last game I saw ICE doing something similar to this when he was mafia. What you're doing is confessing to scumtells that other people have called but trying to shine them in a different light. I'm going to post the quote where I explained it because it applies here as well.

Because I know it annoys you guys at mafiscum, I try to keep my EM references to a minimum. I know its a different meta and all, but there are some similarities, after all its the same basic game. There's a tell that me and my friends coined (Hira might have heard me use it a couple times before) called the Self-Incrimination tell. Essentially what this is when mafia agrees with the argument made against them and then saying why it doesn't fit this particular game. Something along the lines of "Yeah, that was scummy but _____" or "Normally I would agree with you, however in this game it is actually ______". When I play EM, whenever I see sentences phrased like that I almost always vote the person that said it.

This is exactly what you did in the first two paragraphs of your latest post. You're cornered by some scumtells and you don't have a way to argue your way out of them anymore. So you switch tactics and agree with BOTH of them. Go reread his quotes and look at the bolded parts.

What else do you want me to do? Keep on arguing? Even though I've just got caught with my own logic by Sweep, proving their point? No Retro, a good townie knows when to give in. Something you obviously haven't learned.

I unvoted Retro to focus my attention else where, my views have not changed about him and he is still my favourite lynch today.

Hmm...
I cannot see a town motivation to stop putting pressure on someone that you think is the most scummy. If I am truly your favorite lynch, I should be your vote. You've said time and time again that Jace is just a weak vote and that you'll unvote him if he starts being more active. What could town gain from voting a weak suspicion over his strongest? Anyway I look at this, I just see mafia testing the waters and seeing if they can get an easy lynch.

Oh really, how funny, because you were the one insisting that I do it, claiming I was too tunnelled. Besides, this statement is no longer true. I favour ICE for todays lynch,..

No, it is a vote that is based of my suspicion of his, "I'm going to post only just enough to not get replaced" activity level. I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it. The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

Now I found this extremely interesting. You specifically named two people and then said "rest of town." This is a variation of the Self-Incrimination tell I mentioned earlier. Sometimes mafia will see arguments that town are making and can't help but agree with them because they are right. And because they are speaking truths, mafia feels obligated to clear them. However, this shakes up my view Sweep. :/

I've been attacked for saying that before, I can link you to games where I have been accused of being scum for saying that exact thing as a townie. Using that as a tell is ridiculous. You forget this game is roleplayed in a town, and even though mafia are scum they are a part of the town, referring to the rest isn't referring to ones role pm it's referring to everybody in the game as a whole.

[el simo]

I also urge you, Retro, and the rest of the town, to seriously look at ICE before placing a vote on me. That many blatant lies in an accusation is inexcusable. I look forward to hearing his defence because I struggle to see how someone is going to defend themselves after being caught like that. I honestly don't see the town would want to lynch anyone else today, not after that post.

[el simo]

Why is ice scummy for making the case? It looks like only a dressed up OMGUS to me.

Because he lied repeatedly?

[el simo]

Yay for triple post.

Your whole case against ICE is that he said you voted when you did not. Instead you said you would vote which is basically the same thing except a safer move for you because you didn't have to commit. This huge lie that you're manufacturing is bullshit. For a veteran, you sure suck at making good cases.

No you're just reading it biased because your buttsore that I think you know diddly squat about this game. It's funny because it's true, we know this because you have the same attitude towards Sweep who thinks the same thing about you.

And saying that I'm manufacturing the lie is bullshit. I can't make it up, he blatantly said things that weren't true and is now covering them up by saying opps you're right, oh well you're still scummy, probably even more so because you didn't vote! Woolah!

And stop appealing to my experience to try demean me. I've never once used it to gain leverage against you and quite frankly I'm getting sick and tired of your little school boy rants. I sincerely hope you mature up before starting your next game.

I unvoted Retro to focus my attention else where

And what have you been doing with that attention? Instead of finding more reasons to lynch the person you think is scum, you've completely ignored him and started lurker hunting.

I didn't realize lurker hunting was scummy. Regardless, I focused on Ell. Found him scummy at first, but he refuted the points raised against him and made me realize a misrep on your behalf, so I retracted my statement about hammering him. I don't find him scummy any more and I won't voting him today unless he does something to convince me he is scum. I'm not going to vote someone after I've changed my mind about them just because I said would.

This is where the fluff starts. For starters, the only two people I have voted all day have been Retro and Jase, with a vote on diddin holding while I read up more about Ell. Not once have I voted Ell, so not once have I unvoted him either. Where you get this lovely information from, I don't know, but as I showed earlier it isn't the first time you made stuff up in your cases. I quick ISO read will reveal this to be the real truth.

Oops you're right I made a mistake. Your previous pressure vote was on diddin, not Elleran. You made a statement somewhere that Elleran was improving under our pressure, and that you had stated he was scummy for active lurking so for some reason I thought you had a vote on him.

Your words and implications, however, still say the same thing. It is weaker because you didn't vote and unvote, but your intent towards him was the same.

No I said he was posting more and therefore was less scummy. More fluff from you.

Apparently I never explained my statement, nor did state who I agreed with or who I disagreed with. This is absolute bollocks. I read through ICEs case and made a post with it, stating what I did and what I didn't agree with and THAT is when I came to the conclusion that I found Ell scummy enough for my hammer

Then your statements didn't line up with your actions. You declared Elleran scummy enough to hammer, but not scummy enough to place at L-2? How does that make sense?

Where did I say I didn't find him scummy enough to put at L-2? My vote was already on Jase and I felt that I hadn't received the information I was looking for, I didn't see reason to move it. I stated intent to hammer because I did - at that time - but there was no need for me to move my vote off Jase, so I didn't. More fluff!

More lies, I didn't even vote Ell and it is another lovely misrepresentation. The reason why I didn't vote Ell is because yes, he posted more, and at first I just went with that and put my vote on Diddin, but in my vote I even stated that this was a placer vote until I got a reread on them.

Again, yes, this is my error because for some reason when you accused Elleran out for active lurking I thought you had your vote on him, especially considering a lot of your accusations are for active lurking. Even so, my conclusion does not change, and is just weaker.

Saying opps doesn't make you less scummy. You lied about something repeatedly to fluff up your case. You did the same thing to Ell about his double standards as well, which everything seemingly felt appropriate to ignore when I posted. This is scummy.

No, it is a vote that is based of my suspicion of his, "I'm going to post only just enough to not get replaced" activity level.

As Jace already pointed out, he's posting plenty. He doesn't present a ton of content, but he's definitely posting a lot more than you seem to imply he is. I'd say his content is on par or better than diddin's, who you've unvoted.

Out of all his posts, half of them are repeating himself or just a statement that isn't commenting on anything about the game.

appropriately hopping from the last biggest band wagon to the next and has done it for the second time today. I am surprised no one else noticed this yet.

2 things. Firstly, I've been the first one to make a comprehensive case on Elleran, Retro, AND yourself, so don't claim that I am hopping from bandwagon to bandwagon. I'm the one taking them from suspicion to full blown case. Secondly, you were right there with me on the Retro wagon and decided my case against Elleran was good enough to throw down the hammer should he be put at L-1.

[/quote]

Yeah easy enough to do when half the town has called him scummy. My case on Retro had very little to do with what you said. We agreed on one point, the rest was my own. Your case on me now, minus all the lies, is pretty much exactly what Benmage said, just drawn out. And I didn't decide your case on Ell was good enough, I repeatedly called it weak. I agreed with two points, of which one I felt was defended against adequately and also showed was more fluff nonsense from you.

Why is ice scummy for making the case? It looks like only a dressed up OMGUS to me.

Because he lied repeatedly?

lol did you just ignore his last post?

He very obviously wasn't making stuff up.

Posts take time to make.

Because he lied repeatedly?

Claiming that I 'lied repeatedly' after making a mistake that you voted for someone is a stretch. Considering the context, it isn't an improbable mistake to misremember your not voting Elleran.

Nobody else had trouble remembering. In fact, that is what the case against me was about. That I wasn't voting, that I was being non committal.

I posted this on Saturday, and it was never responded to.

Simo, who do you actually find scummy, and why? You dropped off the Retro wagon because he AtE'd you off, you don't seem to have much faith in the Elleran wagon, and you've more or less admitted that you're going to unvote Jace once his post count meets some arbitrary standard you have. As far as I see it, you don't have any real presence in this game at the moment, and I'd say that's scummy.

I forgot to talk about this in my response when you asked about my statement about your opinions of Retro.

Sorry I was away during the weekend.

I find Retro scummy, I find you more scummy, and I find Jase scummy for now. If his analysis of all the players are as thoroughly in depth as his one Ben, he'll probably be getting my vote tomorrow, assuming I make it that far. I'm pretty suspicious of Ben but I want to stay quiet on that for now, I don't want him to adapt his game according to my read on him.

[el simo]

I see a lot of long posts..I'll get in here later, is that floating "

" a mistake, extra, or misquote or something in your last post simo?[/quote]

Mistake.

Then why even mention it El Simo?

Why not? He isn't getting anything from it.

[el simo]

By telling him I'm suspicious of him? How does that make sense?

[el simo]

Mod:

I should probably have mentioned this when we started the game, but I am going to South Africa for a month from the 23rd of October. I'd like to remain in the game and not be replaced, but I'm not sure if you'll allow a month of V/LA.

[el simo]

Yes but I'm not quite sure I want to spend my first trip home in 10 years playing mafia scum. :\

[el simo]

I guess I'll have to deal with the issue when the time comes.

[el simo]

ICE, be an IC.

I just died in the game I was an IC in.

It's the IC curse. If you don't get lynched you'll get night killed.

[el simo]

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[quote="player][b]text goes here[/b][/quote]

[el simo]

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[quote="player"][b]text goes here[/b][/quote]

[el simo]

Simo is scummy by association with Elleran. Not too sure how Benmage vs Simo will play out and more results from that will affect my read of him. If Elleran flips town for some reason that is a good point in favor of town Simo, however.

You should read the last newbie game I IC'd. It's still on going, so I can't say too much. But I was night killed so it's ok for my to say I defended and prevented the lynch of a claimed cop when literally the entire town thought he was scum, I was town. Read it here/ I won't let someone who I don't think is scum get lynched.

[el simo]

more results from that will affect my read of him.

Naturally, that way you save yourself from taking a stance and can just follow the wagon.

[el simo]

I already have a stance on you. I just think that more responses between you and Benmage will help shape out my stance a little. Plus an Elleran flip would help, hint hint.

Then say it. Withholding information doesn't help us and puts you in a scummy light.

I already said my stance on simo is scummy due to association with Elleran. An Elll flip today could change that, obviously.

But this isn't what we're talking about. You said you'd make up your mind on the Ben vs me case when there has been more posting about it. That stance that you have taken is irrelevant to your comment about me and Ben, so my point stands.

[el simo]

And Jase, quite obviously, Benmage is scum.

See how easy it is to say something and then not explain anything?

[el simo]

I understand the non-committal tell but I still don't understand what is scummy about someone defending themselves adequately. It's like you expect me to be stubborn and anti-town by sticking to my word even though I've changed my mind.

[el simo]

I never declared it adequate and I never said you said that and I wasn't defending myself from your accusations. Well done at addressing nothing.

[el simo]

Oh I see that comment now. I was referring to Ell. I was suspicious of him so I was going to lay down the hammer when the time came, until then keeping my vote on you. How ever, before the time could come he adequately defended himself from the accusations made against him that I thought was scummy. That is why I retracted my statement about hammering, because I don't think he is scummy any more, which is why everyone else thinks I am scummy.

And as for what you didn't explain:

Now then, I think Ice has something on Simo.

His repeated cries of bullshit are in turn bullshit. His defense reeks.

These are both very vague statements. Show us that ICE is onto something, show us that my defence reeks. Don't just tell us. That is what I was trying to get across with the Benmage statement.

And lol no I'm not panicking. I'd go as far as saying I'm fairly certain I won't be lynched today ^ that is why I was worrying about being replaced.

To explain why: I understand that being non-committal is scummy, but it's not like I haven't explain all of my actions as I've taken them. Essentially my scum tell is based on ignoring everything I've said and just looking at the fact that I said I would hammer and then went back on my word. You either going to believe that it is scummy or you are going to believe that I took my actions for the reasons I stated when I made them. If the majority of the town thought I was scum I would've been lynched already, it's been plenty of time since the tell was revealed. If I had just said I wanted to hammer and then said I wasn't going to hammer with out any reason then sure lynch me I'd have done the same, but I didn't. Ell told me why I was wrong and I agreed. Easy as that.

[el simo]

And by the by I'm a boxer, I take nasty blows to head on a daily basis.

[el simo]

The problem I"m seeing right now is if we vote Elleran and he flips town, I feel like everyone will autoclear el simo. I can remember countless times I went full out against a lynch on a townie to appear like I wasn't mafia. What's to prevent el simo from have doing the same? You guys talk about wifom like it's taboo, except this is a very real legitimate concern. No matter which way Elleran flips, I think el simo is mafia and needs to be lynched.

Retro, for once you are correct. Nvm your WIFOM statement, just clearing my name because of he is town is WIFOM.

Also it annoys me to no end how much el simo tries to discredit everyone. He makes gross exaggerations to the ineffectiveness of all cases against him, however if you ignore his post and actually read the case they all have substance to them. Look through the game, he's done this countless times.

You also enjoy making vague statements. Show us this, don't just tell us. It is all too easy for me to tell everyone that you are scum with out a doubt or that I've clearly visited Venus, but showing everyone these things, different matter.

The biggest problem I have against statements like this is that they don't give you an opportunity to defend yourself. This in fact does make these sorts of statements scummy. What better argument for scum to use than one that can't be defended against.

[el simo]

Difference being Retro, I'm not using logical fallacies to defend myself.

[el simo]

Difference being Retro, I'm not using logical fallacies to defend myself.

In fact, other than ICEs constant fluffing up of nonsense, I'm not defending myself from anything. Benmage. I can't say I haven't been non-committal, the evidence is there. The question is whether it is scummy in this case or not. I explained each of my actions as I took them. I told the town why I was doing what I was doing and no one had a problem with it. You are either going to take them for what they are or you are going to ignore the content and just look at the actions.

See that is the difference Retro, I'm not trying to defend myself (at least, not from Benmage, if you honestly believe ICEs nonsense than /facepalm, his case is exactly what Benmages is, just with a bunch of not true stuff added in ie fluff) with well renowned and fallacious arguments. It's just what it is with me. You either believe Benmage or you believe me. How ever you DON'T believe ICE cause he has trouble differentiating between what actually happened and what he thought happened.

As for your last post, give it up Retro. You were wrong as not only I but many others in the town have said. You can't disprove the wiki. WIFOM is scummy, there is no special circumstances for you. You are trying to say something the entire history of this site itself proves is wrong. If I had been winding you guys up with a bunch of Catch 22 statements to try and defend myself then maybe you'd have a foot to stand on, but I'm not and you did and you really just making yourself look silly. What you struggle to realize if that if you want us to read your defence and not call you scummy for using WIFOM, the only other responses that we could have given would've been more WIFOM. That is how it works and that is why it is anti town. I honestly feel like I'm writing to a brick wall sometimes.

[el simo]

Meh, if a el simo/sweep lynch doesn't get steam, I guess I'll vote Elleran.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Benmage (so don't have a hissy at me). This is a no no. It's all fair and well to vote someone you don't have all that much on, but to try lynch them with that vote is another thing. If you are voting with the intent to lynch, you either vote someone who you think is scummy or you don't vote at all. None of I guess this and I sorta kinda feel that so maybe yeah ok.

[el simo]

El, I recall you saying "oh I might hammer" on the El wagon. Difference now please, because that is a huge double standard.

Siiigh have you read anything that has gone on between myself, Ben, ICE and Retro? Lol...

[el simo]

Yeah, and I don't buy any of the crap explanations given though.

Look, you can back pedal and defend it all you want, but whats done is done. Point is, you said I might hammer but I am not voting him. Instead you pressured someone else, but you still left that window open. Is that not correct?

No this isn't correct. I said I WOULD hammer when the time came based on his double standards and back peddle. But he defended himself from the double standard and made me realize that ICE was wrong and throwing fluff around when he accused Ell of this and so I retracted my statement as I no longer found him scummy. This is the case against so how you think I have been scummy and don't know this I'm not sure lol.

[el simo]

No. No no no. No no no no no no. Thats not what I am saying. I am asking how what you did AT THAT POINT IN TIME is different that what you just scolded Retro for doing.

Oh. Care to elaborate a bit more? I don't see anything similar about myself and Retro. I scolded him for using WIFOM and other fallacious arguments to defend himself. I don't see where I have used WIFOM or anything like that to defend myself.

[el simo]

No. No no no. No no no no no no. Thats not what I am saying. I am asking how what you did AT THAT POINT IN TIME is different that what you just scolded Retro for doing.

Oh. Care to elaborate a bit more? I don't see anything similar about myself and Retro. I scolded him for using WIFOM and other fallacious arguments to defend himself. I don't see where I have used WIFOM or anything like that to defend myself.

Sorry, haven't woken up yet. Just barely finished breakfast lol. You were referring to to voting someone you don't intend to lynch right?

[el simo]

I see. Easy. I thought Ell was scum (at that time) so I said I would hammer, until then I wanted my vote on Jase, but I wasn't hopping on a bandwagon that I am wasn't convinced by that had intentions to lynch. My vote on Jase was because I was genuinely suspicious of him. Retro just said despite not being all that convinced that Ell is scum he'd vote for him if myself or Sweep doesn't pick up he'd hop on the Ell wagon and go with him for today's lynch. Mighty difference imo.

[el simo]

Eh it shouldn't matter. Too much WIFOM.

[el simo]

But what about him saying I said things I didn't? What bothers me about him is that his case is it's just what Ben said, except instead of reading through my posts and seeing what I actually did and say, he says things he apparently "thought" I did and said instead of proving actual quotes. His case is based of things I didn't do. Benmage is right, ICE is not. Too many mistakes just to sweep it under the rug as an oopsie daisy.

As I said before, the reason I didn't vote him is because I didn't feel I needed to. I was suspicious of you as well and had statement my thoughts on Ell, as far as I was concerned the Ell thing was over for me. I said I thought he was scummy and I said why and I said I would hammer when the time comes, but until then I'd rather have had my vote on you.

So my next question is, Jase, why is this scummy? I have two people who I am suspicious of, I've stated intent to hammer one, why do I need to vote him yet? We all know I'm suspicious of him, I just said I would hammer. Why can't I work on my other suspect while we wait for votes and discuss Ell further?

Note: I'm not trying to use this to defend myself, I know the answer, I just want more from Jase.

Not really....

Flips change a lot of things about a lot of people. Far from WIFOM, and you should know this.

I disagree, but I don't feel like arguing theory, so unless you want me to post more let's just leave it at that.

[el simo]

I said I would vote Elleran if I'm not gonna let town no lynch if they need my vote. I'm still strongly in favor of voting el simo or Sweep. I said what I felt which is I"m not getting a huge scum read on Elleran.

Oh sorry, I'm not sure how I didn't get that from this:

My very slight scumread on Elleran is mostly just a lack of towntells.

Meh, if a el simo/sweep lynch doesn't get steam, I guess I'll vote Elleran.

[el simo]

I don't know what to do about this game. All I see is "you're wrong", "no u", and simo feeling like flips don't change anything (which is horribly incorrect in my experience).

My experience involves things like a dead cop, who spent his last day relentlessly pursuing someone he thought was scum based on little evidence. Naturally when we found out he was the cop we lynched who he was targeting the next day, only to lynch town. The WIFOM involved in this is too much, maybe later on down the road when we have 9 dead bodies and more evidence to go off, sure, but day 2? nothx.

I just don't see anything scummy about Jace or why he warranted a vote when other lurking players did not. Simo really seemed to do everything he could to stay off that Elleran wagon despite the fact that there was good evidence, and simo declared Elleran mildly scummy for good reasons. So when Elleran came in and made a defense that tried to explain how he was talking about something completely different than diddin, I just didn't understand how anyone could buy it but simo did.

Eh this is wrong. For starters, I repeatedly said that I disagreed with that part of your case. That is not why I was suspicious of Ell. It was purely for the double standards and back peddle. Once he explained the double standards I realized they were never there and rather just another invention of yours, I decided I wasn't suspicious of Ell anymore. I've said this many times now.

I made a case about simo, and was incorrect in my recollection of whether or not simo had voted Elleran because of his statement of something to the effect of "Elleran's play improved when we placed pressure on him" and stating that he would hammer Elleran if the time came but preferred to pursue Jace.

I'll say it again, I never said that.

At this point in time, I don't feel like Elleran flipping town clears simo. However, Elleran flipping scum very very seriously damns simo, and would more or less confirm my suspicions of him. Simo's flip won't really tell us about Elleran or anyone else.

If this does happen I'd like to remind you all about the game I linked earlier, where I defended the towns #1 suspect to my death because I didn't think he was scum.

I think simo is scummy because of how he read and partially accepted my case on Elleran, but somehow managed to agree with Elleran's defense of "I thought he was talking about something else". When I presented a case on him, simo attempted to discredit the entire case on the base that I thought simo's vote was on Elleran for a short while when it wasn't. This changed very little about my case.

More lies, this isn't at all what I said. Every time you have attempted to quote me or say I did something, you have been wrong. PLEASE reread me, I haven't said these things you claim, I never was suspicious of him about diddin at all, I wasn't ever talking about his defence of your diddin claims, I repeatedly said that part of your argument was weak and that I didn't agree with it. I also never voted him. How no one has managed to see this I don't know. You have repeatedly misquoted me and saying I've said things and have taken stances about things I didn't, this coupled with your lie CAN'T be one big misunderstanding, and if it is I then dare you to keep your case on Ell, because it is relying on the fact that you think HE couldn't have misunderstoon DIDDIN so badly. You are either lying or just as guilty as Ell is based on your own logic.

[el simo]

I should also mention that either of those conclusions are scummy, if you are lying well that is obvious, if you have truly misunderstood me than you are a hypocrite and hold double standards for others and yourself.

[el simo]

For starters, I repeatedly said that I disagreed with that part of your case.

Yes I've said that numerous times. But those parts aren't what this quote was referring to.

made a defense that tried to explain how he was talking about something completely different than diddin, I just didn't understand how anyone could buy it but simo did.

My point was that I didn't have to buy the defence, because I didn't buy the offence.

You agreed with the part of my case about double standards and backpedaling. You've said so. I'll quote you if I must. Those are the "good reasons" I'm referring to.

Yes, I've said that and I've also said that one of those points was proved wrong.

I'll say it again, I never said that.

You didn't? I'll quote you, then.

Regarding Ell and did, Ell has improved his game since we applied the pressure, diddin has not.

I can't remember this. Regardless, I'll admit I was wrong about this one. You still have many other quotes to give us how ever, I'll list your false statements at the end of this post.

[quote="ICEninja"

I'll hammer when the time comes, but until I'd rather keep my vote on Jase. He needs to post more.

Pretty sure you said that.[/quote]

Never said I didn't.

[quote="ICEninja"

More lies, this isn't at all what I said.

It isn't? Did you or did you not agree with the part of my case about Elleran consisting of backpedaling and double standards? Did you or did you not spend about 3/4ths of your defending post stating that you never voted Elleran and that I'm lying? Do you or do you not realize that you not having voted doesn't really change much about my case against you, except strengthening my position that you've not touched the wagon with a 10 foot pole?[/quote]

Yes but that quote has nothing to do with backpeddling and double standards. It was specifically about Ell and diddin which I repeatedly said was nonsense and a null tell. You CLEARLY said that I agreed with his defence regarding diddin. This is a lie. Why would agree with something that is defending from something I don't agree with? Other than calling it bogus I didn't even comment on the confusion like you seem to insist.

[quote="ICEninja"

I never was suspicious of him about diddin at all, I wasn't ever talking about his defence of your diddin claims, I repeatedly said that part of your argument was weak and that I didn't agree with it.

You're right. I know. That is why I've been saying, in just about every instance, that you've agreed with

part

of my case. Not the whole thing. So that means I'm acknowledging that you didn't agree with all of it.[/quote]

This is NOT what you've been saying. Here is my list of your lies.

First Elleran isn't posting much, and simo votes him for active lurking.

It was a pressure vote, because as soon as Elleran started posting, despite the fact that it was horribly scummy, simo unvoted.

Then he decided that he'll hammer Elleran later. He didn't tell us why, or talked about what he agreed with or disagreed with, despite a large amount of pressure on simo to do so.

Finally he states that one of my points against Elleran is weak or invalid or something, and therefore the entire case against Elleran is invalid, and continues to pursue Jace.

He's held his vote on Elleran until Elleran started posting. Regardless of the content, simo unvoted.

You declared Elleran scummy enough to hammer, but not scummy enough to place at L-2?

So when Elleran came in and made a defense that tried to explain how he was talking about something completely different than diddin, I just didn't understand how anyone could buy it but simo did.

I think simo is scummy because of how he read and partially accepted my case on Elleran, but somehow managed to agree with Elleran's defense of "I thought he was talking about something else".

And for lolz:

When I presented a case on him, simo attempted to discredit the entire case on the base that I thought simo's vote was on Elleran for a short while when it wasn't.

Everyone one of these statements are not true and I challenge him to prove that they are.

I have a problem with simo pointing us to a different game where he defended a townie everyone thought was guilty. Specifically (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that it was a newbie game. As an IC you'd be pretty much obligated to try and refute a bad case against a player. It's also WIFOM, "Hey guys, I did X in this other game and I was town. There's no way I would do the same thing this game as scum"

I can link you to a newbie game where I wasn't the IC (hadn't told them I was an alt yet) and did the exact same thing.

Oh he beat me to it.

Far from it.

[el simo]

Shit just stuffed my quotes up major, EBWOP coming.

[el simo]

For starters, I repeatedly said that I disagreed with that part of your case.

You agreed with the part of my case about double standards and backpedaling. You've said so. I'll quote you if I must. Those are the "good reasons" I'm referring to.

Yes I've said that numerous times. But those parts aren't what this quote was referring to and so this changes nothing.

made a defense that tried to explain how he was talking about something completely different than diddin, I just didn't understand how anyone could buy it but simo did.

My point was that I didn't have to buy the defence, because I didn't buy the offence. Regardless, this is still a lie.

You agreed with the part of my case about double standards and backpedaling. You've said so. I'll quote you if I must. Those are the "good reasons" I'm referring to.

Yes, I've said that and I've also said that one of those points was proved wrong. This doesn't change your anything.

I'll say it again, I never said that.

You didn't? I'll quote you, then.

Regarding Ell and did, Ell has improved his game since we applied the pressure, diddin has not.

I can't remember this. Regardless, I'll admit I was wrong about this one. You still have many other quotes to give us how ever, I'll list your false statements at the end of this post.

I'll hammer when the time comes, but until I'd rather keep my vote on Jase. He needs to post more.

Pretty sure you said that.

Never said I didn't.

More lies, this isn't at all what I said.

It isn't? Did you or did you not agree with the part of my case about Elleran consisting of backpedaling and double standards? Did you or did you not spend about 3/4ths of your defending post stating that you never voted Elleran and that I'm lying? Do you or do you not realize that you not having voted doesn't really change much about my case against you, except strengthening my position that you've not touched the wagon with a 10 foot pole?

Yes but that quote has nothing to do with backpeddling and double standards. It was specifically about Ell and diddin which I repeatedly said was nonsense and a null tell. You CLEARLY said that I agreed with his defence regarding diddin. This is a lie. Why would agree with something that is defending from something I don't agree with? Other than calling it bogus I didn't even comment on the confusion like you seem to insist.

I never was suspicious of him about diddin at all, I wasn't ever talking about his defence of your diddin claims, I repeatedly said that part of your argument was weak and that I didn't agree with it.

You're right. I know. That is why I've been saying, in just about every instance, that you've agreed with

part

of my case. Not the whole thing. So that means I'm acknowledging that you didn't agree with all of it.

This is NOT what you've been saying and is NOT what I was talking about. Here is my list of your lies.

First Elleran isn't posting much, and simo votes him for active lurking.

It was a pressure vote, because as soon as Elleran started posting, despite the fact that it was horribly scummy, simo unvoted.

Then he decided that he'll hammer Elleran later. He didn't tell us why, or talked about what he agreed with or disagreed with, despite a large amount of pressure on simo to do so.

Finally he states that one of my points against Elleran is weak or invalid or something, and therefore the entire case against Elleran is invalid, and continues to pursue Jace.

He's held his vote on Elleran until Elleran started posting. Regardless of the content, simo unvoted.

You declared Elleran scummy enough to hammer, but not scummy enough to place at L-2?

So when Elleran came in and made a defense that tried to explain how he was talking about something completely different than diddin, I just didn't understand how anyone could buy it but simo did.

I think simo is scummy because of how he read and partially accepted my case on Elleran, but somehow managed to agree with Elleran's defense of "I thought he was talking about something else".

And for lolz:

When I presented a case on him, simo attempted to discredit the entire case on the base that I thought simo's vote was on Elleran for a short while when it wasn't.

Everyone one of these statements are not true and I challenge him to prove that they are.

I have a problem with simo pointing us to a different game where he defended a townie everyone thought was guilty. Specifically (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that it was a newbie game. As an IC you'd be pretty much obligated to try and refute a bad case against a player. It's also WIFOM, "Hey guys, I did X in this other game and I was town. There's no way I would do the same thing this game as scum"

I can link you to a newbie game where I wasn't the IC (hadn't told them I was an alt yet) and did the exact same thing.

Oh he beat me to it.

Far from it.

[el simo]

My very slight scumread on Elleran is mostly just a lack of towntells.

Meh, if a el simo/sweep lynch doesn't get steam, I guess I'll vote Elleran.

[/quote]

[el simo]

5)You declared Elleran scummy enough to hammer, but not scummy enough to place at L-2?
You keep saying that Jace was scummy, but all you had on him was active lurking. I don't know if you noticed, but Elleran hasn't stopped doing that.

Fair point but not why I quoted it. You said I declared he wans't good enough for L-2. This is a misrepresentation made from my actions, not what I declared, because I declared until I'd rather have my vote on Jase.

6)So when Elleran came in and made a defense that tried to explain how he was talking about something completely different than diddin, I just didn't understand how anyone could buy it but simo did.
You stated that this part of my attack on Elleran is fluff. That must mean you agreed with what Elleran said, because if you didn't then you agreed with what I said, and found him suspicious for it. The only other option is to not believe Elleran's excuse for his "mistake" but not find him scummy, which I don't see as possible.

No it doesn't mean I agree with Ell it means what I said and that is was a null tell.

7)I think simo is scummy because of how he read and partially accepted my case on Elleran, but somehow managed to agree with Elleran's defense of "I thought he was talking about something else".
Elleran's defense was crap. The fact that you found it satisfactory is in itself enough for me to suspect you. I'm not lying here.

But I didn't even comment on his defence about diddin.

So out of 7 things here, almost all of them come to me believing your suspicion on Elleran came out to a vote when it didn't. While I realize it was a slight misrepresentation, as I've said many many times,

it doesn't change my case much at all

. You haven't done much to refute my case, you've just called me a liar because I made a mistake. You too forgot something you said earlier. I probably should have checked if your "suspicion" on Elleran amounted to a vote or not, but regardless of that vote or not my case holds true.

One point I conceded. I wasn't lying, I just forgot that you did indeed briefly discuss those things.

I make mistakes sometimes. So sue me. I'm not lying.

You haven't proved one quote to be true here. And if you truly aren't lying, then you are a hypocrite for constantly saying Ells defence on diddin was crap. He said it was a misunderstanding, this is exactly what you are claiming now. Double standards much? Either way, lying or massive miscommunication, you are scummy.

[el simo]

2)It was a pressure vote, because as soon as Elleran started posting, despite the fact that it was horribly scummy, simo unvoted.
Change pressure vote to just putting pressure without a vote, and replace unvoting with deciding Elleran was a null read.

Also, still not true.

[el simo]

Because his only points that have any substance = what Benmage said which is an argument that has already been settled, almost 10 pages back.

[el simo]

And YOU are ignoring the fact that he has either delibarately lied and misrepresented what I said to add substances to his case or is a hypocrite holding double standards for himself and by his very own logic scummy.

[el simo]

Also, Retro, please tell us, what are those valid points and why are they scummy? This isn't an attempt at a defence it's me trying to get a read so don't cry about this being a poor defence.

[el simo]

And Retro realize me claiming he is a liar / hypocrite isn't me defending myself. It is me attacking ICE, so stop with the my defence is just saying no he is wrong argument. You've said it about everything I've said this entire game and it's getting pretty old.

[el simo]

And you realize all you do is tell me I'm wrong instead of telling me why?

[el simo]

Retro, did you read any of the exchange that just happened between me and ICE... Really..

As for his partner, who knows who cares let's just lynch ICE and deal with that tomorrow.

[el simo]

If you mean my next two suspects, how ever, then it's you and Jase.

[el simo]

Content.

[el simo]

/dodgy glance at Elleran.

Yeah this IS starting to get suspicious. He loses the heat and disappears. Scum points for Ell. Woolah wishy washy accusations here they come.

[el simo]

/dodgy glance at Elleran.

Yeah this IS starting to get suspicious. He loses the heat and disappears. Scum points for Ell. Woolah wishy washy accusations here they come.

You're so back and forth on him.

I gave him scum points, big deal. Benmage has millions of these from me.

[el simo]

Yup, just calling it as I read it.

[el simo]

Fair point but not why I quoted it. You said I declared he wans't good enough for L-2. This is a misrepresentation made from my actions, not what I declared, because I declared until I'd rather have my vote on Jase.

I suppose it was a bit of an inference based on how you aren't voting for someone you say is suspicious, and who doesn't post much. Yet you vote Jace and literally don't give us anything about how he's scummy except his post quantity, and some extremely vague statements about how he's scummy. Your vote was very obviously not doing anything, so you very clearly spoke to me that you weren't interested in Elleran's wagon moving forward.

So then say this instead inferring things.

No it doesn't mean I agree with Ell it means what I said and that is was a null tell.

Well it seems like you agree by proxy or something. I'm not going to argue this point because there's no reason to, and it isn't really telling of your alignment anyway.

So why did you bring it up when you made your case on me?

But I didn't even comment on his defence about diddin.

You said my point on him was null. And you did comment about his defense on other points (suggesting that he successfully refuted my points). That's good enough for me.

But that isn't what you said. You specifically referred to his defence on your diddin accusations that I did not comment on and said was a null tell.

And if you truly aren't lying, then you are a hypocrite for constantly saying Ells defence on diddin was crap. He said it was a misunderstanding, this is exactly what you are claiming now.

You shed weak suspicion on Elleran early, calling him out for active lurking, and have placed a weak lurker hunting vote. It isn't much of a mistake to forget between shedding light suspicion and placing a weak vote. Have you seen that error Elleran made? I read it 4 times and I still couldn't understand how he could have possibly arrived at the conclusion he did. That isn't a double standard at all. Multiple other players feel like the mistake I made was perfectly honest considering the situation, but no one has said any such thing about Elleran's error.

But it is much of a mistake to misrepresent me so many times so drastically.

Oh, and when asked why you still find Jace suspicious, you give this statement:

Content.

Wow. Your vote on him really was strong, huh?. Not only is he posting enough to not be active lurking, which is why you've voted him in the first place, he is now providing "content" that is...scummy? Who knows, you haven't actually said anything. Perhaps you're voting him because he is putting forth content? Judging by the case you've put forward against Jace, how are we supposed to even know what you find scummy about him?

The fact that you stuck to this vote on Jace and continue to hold suspicion on him for so long despite your vote on me, plus your refusal to actually give reasons to be suspecting him, is just horribly scummy.

Geez did everybody become sarcastic assholes when I left or something? This comment is really stretching for something here. For starters trying to read what my intentions were from a one worded post and then calling it scummy is just... Really? You honestly believe that? Quite obviously I'm withholding information here, I'm still reading him. I tell him what I'm thinking and he can adjust his play accordingly. Squirm more buddy.

[el simo]

Yes plz flip ICE.

[el simo]

Slaxx you are posting but you are not commenting on my case on ICE. Input please?

[el simo]

What do you think about his lies/statements that were not true?

[el simo]

You're overstating things quite a lot. It was all within one post, so it isn't as if I made the same mistake repeatedly. I was just continuing with the same one chain of thought. Also, it wasn't a dramatic mistake at all because, as I pointed out oh-so-many times, you voting him or not voting him really didn't change anything about my case.

They were taken from every post you tried to take a stab at me. Not just one.

Then why are you acting like you're surprised that I'm attacking you for this? I'm not an idiot for calling you scummy. You're withholding information. I called you out on it in a melodramatic way, but my point is you've either held your vote or a place holding suspicion on Jace for an extremely long time without anything better to say about him than "he's active lurking" and "he's posting scummy content". I'm honestly glad you voted me, because at least now your vote is doing something productive, as opposed to being this worthless L-6 attacking a player who doesn't have any case presented against him to defend.

Because I didn't think that you would go as far as to take a one worded post and make it look scummy to try discredit me and add more to your case. And why am I so scummy for voting Jase for actively lurking? I said the exact same thing (but didn't vote as I was in the middle of the Retro thing) about Ell but nobody had a problem when I said to him, now all of a sudden I accuse someone who is guilty of the same thing and every dick tom and harry calls SCUM OMGH SCUMSUCMSCUMSUM. If I'm scummy for accusing Jase I should be scummy for accusing Ell but everybody was fine with my accusations then. More double standards much?

I'm going out soon so I'll have to post later. I'm quite astounded by some of the remarks made.

[el simo]

Okay so 5 pages overnight. I still want a lynch on Retro because of the past and because of his immature playing of the game. My second suspect has to be currently Simo who I see as running around his own tail trying to confuse everyone by re-refuting each point made against him by ICE, arguing over theory (which is leading us astray) and flipflopping around the shop who to vote. Saying this I still want a lynch on Retro.

How am I trying to confuse everyone? How have I been arguing theory? Arguing theory is like trying to say that this tell isn't scummy. I haven't been doing that. I've been arguing cold hard facts, or more so, the lack there of. How you can think I am the one trying to confuse the town when I have just proved that ICE is a scummy liar or a scummy hypocrite, I honestly don't know. Did you really read the last 5 pages, or did you just say you did and guessed the outcome? I mean come on, he even agreed with me!

[el simo]

Asshole mate missed his bus so I had to delay plans.

So why are all of his arguments/tells so unfounded?

There is nothing unfounded about logical fallacies, actively lurking and misrepresenting the truth to make someone look scummy. These are the foundations of my three cases and you have done nothing yourself to show me I am wrong, instead you just constantly fout nonsense about how I just disagree with every and have unfounded cases. Rubbish. I tell you the same thing I told Jase, don't tell me, show me.

He is currently sure the two people I see as the most town are mafia. I stated very early in this game that el simo continuously discredits whoever he's debating and rather talk about theory rather
than actual things going on in this game.

I have only argued theory with you, because you refused to accept scum tells as scummy, and this was only after I presented the facts about you. To say I only argue theory is bullshit.

(The canned case where he brings the discussion outside of the game rather than discussing the game) Now that it's directed at you, ICE, you should be noticing this. All he cares about right now is that you said he voted when he didn't. This is a perfect method to disregard your whole case and focus on the one fault in it, even if the case still stands now that the fault has been corrected he still hasn't let it go.

Have you read anything that has happened recently? How can you say this and honestly believe it? I just proved to the town how bloody often he has misrepresented the facts, saying I said things I didn't and took stances I didn't, as well as the vote. You either are incredibly stubborn, or just haven't been reading, because ICE himself has conceded this. The fact that you continue to try defend him after he has already pleaded guilty, is just, I don't know Retro, do you hate me that much?

I don't find him getting off Elleran's wagon as scummy though because I had the same thought process. However I think his reasoning for

not

joining the Elleran wagon was extremley telling. el simo devoted a whole post to why Elleran was scummy and how he would hammer her, but then said "I'm going to vote this guy now".

This isn't true either! I didn't do that, my vote was already on Jase and I said I didn't see reason to move it. And I didn't devote a whole post to him either, I gave him a paragraph in a post.

[quote="And Jace's content per post has been more rich than most players here. (He reminds me a lot of this player named Seol.)[/quote]

Lol yeah right. He has made vague statements about who is scum and offered no explanation of why. This is not good content.

It seems like el simo pulled the Jace supicion out of his ass and stuck to in until someone caught on.

But it is the exact same reason why I found Ell scummy in the first place. Why is Jase being pulled out of my arse but Ell wasn't?

I think this is because he saw Jace as an easy target because his post number wasn't all that high. simo then switched his vote to the person who caught on first; ICE. When I look through el simo's play, I don't see much scumhunting. I'd say 9/10 posts he's provided this game have been centered at discrediting someone rather or focusing on one minor detail that doesn't really pertain to the game rather than actual scumhunting. When he flips scum, everyone he's discreditted is going to loook much more town in my eyes.

This is stupid WIFOM and wrong anyway. ICE wasn't first, Benmage was. ICE just took what Benmage said and added a bunch of things that I DIDN'T do to his case to make it look like there was actually something there.

You claim, Retro, that I devote all my time to discrediting people and do no scum hunting. You claim that I am constantly arguing theory instead of arguing facts. You claim that all my cases have been unfounded. You thinks I am arguing theory with ICE, when I have been clearly arguing his gross misrepresentation of the truth, something he himself has admitted (bar not to the extent that I say so) and yet you STILL argue that he is correct. You also claim I didn't want to vote Ell and instead voted Jase. These are all not true. Stop telling the town shit like this, show it to us. Quote me directly and prove that I have done these things. You can't, because I didn't, and now after I make this post watch your reply be "he is just trying to discredit and argue theory blah blah unfounded all he is doing is saying I'm wrong blah blah."

I understand why you would think I'm scummy, Benmage raised valid points and there is no defence from them other than what I have stated (that is you either believe what I said when I made the actions or you believe Benmage). But what ICE has said has been consistently false. He took Benmages case and coated it in a large layer of sugar and presented it to the town as fact, and Retro has been there along side him constantly claiming that I am just saying "no you're wrong" and you all seem to follow them like bloody little children following the piper. You guys remember what happened at the end of that story? All the children were killed. If you want to prevent this from happening I strongly suggest that you go back, actually read the exchanges and make up your own mind about what has happened. I mean hell he even just admitted that those points of his weren't the facts and then tried to downplay them like a small mistake, but the truth is he made multiple lies (or what ever you want to call them) in multiple posts, trying to add more to Benmages case on me and at the same time trying to refute my case on him. How the town does not see this, I honestly don't know, it's beyond me.

[el simo]

Maybe now but not at the time of my post.

[el simo]

As in, post where I originally made the statement.

[el simo]

Also I'm pretty sure I did reply to that, let me check through my posts.

[el simo]

Eh will do it later gtg.

[el simo]

It was pretty obvious when I read his and yours post before rereading his response that it was a simple misstatement. Why would anyone make such a blatant lie, and then attempt to push it when anyone could clearly do a fast iso of yourself or of the votecounts and see that you didn't vote Elleran. This was obviously a misstatement and for you to be suggesting otherwise is a massive grasping at straws and scummy as shit. I can't believe at this point I am going to have to still read 5 more pages and you aren't dead.

A simple misstatement 9 times in three posts all accusing me of doing things I haven't done? Benmage your response is outdated. I have a guest over so I can't respond in full just yet.

[el simo]

Whhh Whhh What??? You unvote your favorite lynch target to put attention elsewhere?? Why would you ever want to detract attention from you favorite lynch target? Moreover for what purpose/ why did you/ who did you feel the need to focus on(yes this may be repetitive, please answer).

He was my favourite lynch at the time of posting yes and I wasn't trying to take attention off him, I was simply focussing mine else where to get a read on other players as well. And the town in general. Other people were posting other arguments that I had completely ignored. I pretty much reread every player during that time and posted my thoughts on them.

I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it.

The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

Yeah, you're suspicions are based on his lack of participation. Thus your vote is parked there until he adequately participates. So yeah...this is a pressure vote which you s.p.e.l.t out the get out of jail free card, or how he can easily alleviate any suspicion you have........ Posting. Look out, god forbid he didn't simo probably wouldn't do anything anyways. One, side, wasted vote causing so much pressure Jase's way. (sarcasm in those last two lines for those who didn't realize it)

Why is my pressure vote on Jase scummy but my "pressure" on Ell not? They were both guilty of the same thing. Would you rather me not vote someone who I was suspicious of? Would you prefer to me just to park it on a bandwagon that I'm not convinced by? No Ben, I thought Jase was suspicious so I voted him. Saying my vote was useless doesn't prove anything, my vote on ICE is the only one atm, is that useless too? Should I just switch over to Ell so you can all be happy that my vote is doing something you deem useful, regardless of my thoughts?

Either or, there has

not been a word of truth

from this post, and it alone is enough to warrant my vote.

Now this seems like a misstatement to make your counter sound a bit stronger.

Yeah strings of lies like that tend to make me say these things.

Hmm...
I cannot see a town motivation to stop putting pressure on someone that you think is the most scummy.

QFT

Fair enough. However, do I know person A is the most scummy when I haven't read anything on Person B, C, D, E, F, G or anyone else for that matter? This is what I did and why I did it.

Oh really, how funny, because you were the one insisting that I do it, claiming I was too tunnelled. Besides, this statement is no longer true. I favour ICE for todays lynch,..

Did Jase ever satisfy

his lack of contribution

your "suspicions"?

Why is ice scummy for making the case? It looks like only a dressed up OMGUS to me.

^QFT, and yes Retro summarized it nicely in 452.

No, he didn't. There is a lot more lies than just the vote. I have shown this and proved it and ICE has admitted it himself. To keep on arguing that he was right is just arrogant and stubborn.

And saying that I'm manufacturing the lie is bullshit. I can't make it up, he blatantly said things that weren't true and is now covering them up by saying opps you're right, oh well you're still scummy, probably even more so because you didn't vote! Woolah!

It was pretty obvious when I read his and yours post before rereading his response that it was a simple misstatement. Why would anyone make such a blatant lie, and then attempt to push it when anyone could clearly do a fast iso of yourself or of the votecounts and see that you didn't vote Elleran. This was obviously a misstatement and for you to be suggesting otherwise is a massive grasping at straws and scummy as shit. I can't believe at this point I am going to have to still read 5 more pages and you aren't dead.

I've already responded to this, but I'll say it again, you don't make so many misstatements so many times about so many things. It is far from a simple misstatement.

Regardless, I focused on Ell. Found him scummy at first

See.. this is where the misstatement stems from. This idea, and anyone could get your original words if you like and show you what Ice said in context was truth. You stamping around on your feet going LIAR LIAR isn't persuading anyone. You were torn between diddin and El, and voted diddin. What Ice said in regards to you and Ell was true.

What? He read that statement and because of it thought I voted Ell? I don't see it.

. I stated intent to hammer because I did - at that time - but there was no need for me to move my vote off Jase, so I didn't.

Because your vote on Jase was so effective (more sarcasm)

Does the effectiveness of it change anything? I'm not going to not vote someone I am suspicious of because my vote will be ineffective. Ben you still have a lot to catch up on, but I must say I surely am disappointed in you. To have claimed to be the best player in this group I was sure you would see through ICEs blatant misrepresentations, but apparently not. Even though he has admitted it. Funny.

I don't know Retro, do you hate me that much?

Yeah.

Excellent, let your feelings get in the way of your thoughts, wonderful town play.

el simo; post 307 is where you start talking about Elleran vs Diddin for scum.

Wrong, I started in my reread quite a while before then.

Post 325 is where you where you say "idk about elleran so ima vote jace 'cause his post number is low"

No this is wrong. In post #325 I say that I maintain my position that Ell's play has improved. I never said I don't know what I think of him, I also disagreed with the case on him. How ever, my vote on Jase was for exactly the same reason as my initial - and at the time of posting - only suspicion on Ell. Why is my vote on Jase scummy but my case on Ell wasn't?

[Please note this is also the part of the game where you weren't even reading Elleran's posts and you just looked at post count.]

And again, no, this was the point in the game where I had just reread Ell and decided that he wasn't scummy. Here, I'll even quote myself:

Anyone else notice this? Other than that I maintain my position that Ells game has picked up. Bad case =! scummy! We put pressure on him for actively lurking and he started posting more. If he continued to lurk than I'd have voted him but since our pressure got the desired results I don't see why I should vote Ell.

Elleran defends on 377. You voted Jace 52 posts before Elleran even attempted to defend himself. Saying I made up these numbers is ridiculousness. You were extemlely hypocritical especially because you were voting for lurking. You stopped pressureing Elleran the second he posted even though he said next to nothing of value

I didn't need to wait for his defence, I had already decided that I disagreed with Ice, as stated in that very same post that I voted Jase.

however when Jace posts you're still confident he's scum. Yeah, you're right! I'm not sure where anyone is getting this double standard argument from. And I just realized this now but between diddin and elleran you voted diddin. Once Elleran was getting a huge amount of heat and people stopped learning on diddin, you picked Jace out of nowhere. Everytime you were at a cross road between Elleran and another player, you always picked the latter.

When did I say I was confident that he was scum? I said he was my next most suspicious player, after ICE and you.

And picked him out of no where? I voted him for the exact same reasons that I was suspicious of Ell in the first place. AGAIN, why is this scummy, when my suspicions on Ell wasn't?

[el simo]

Anywho Retro, you are being just as bad as ICE here with your constant flouting of nonsense things, claiming that I said and did things that I did not. You really making it hard for me to decide between you and ICE.

[el simo]

Slaxx I must be honest, I have no idea what your case on Ell is.

ICE, I understand what you mean, when I said you admitted it I never meant to imply that you admitted to the consequences of them, just the fact that you were wrong in the way you presented my in those posts. I don't feel it is as simple a matter as you claim, but that is subjective, although I struggle to see how other people can take your side on it. But the fact that they deny it happen altogether is what annoys me.

About Jase, I haven't gotten to writing about him yet, I'm sure you can see how I've been pretty busy, what between you, Retro and Ben. I feel the matter is coming close to being settled so I will write up on Jase soon, but first I'd like to see more content from him so I can confirm/refute my ideas. Same goes for Benmage.

[el simo]

Yep, it's pretty hard to find in the 27 pages too, mind giving me the # of the post?

[el simo]

Simo, you yielded that the "pressure" aspect of your vote on Jase was a by product of your suspicions. Is that correct?

Yes

Which means the rest of our assumptions that it was a pressure vote, was accurate because your vote maintained aspects of what an accepted "pressure" vote looks like. Is that also correct?

No, at least, not intentionally. My vote was on him because I found him suspicious, not because I wanted him to post more. My desire to have him post more stemmed from my suspicion of him, it was the not the purpose of my vote as you have implied.

Anywho, Ben, I think you should know, in case you've missed it during your reread, that I concede that your points on me are correct. My actions were non-committal and there was a pressure aspect to my vote (although not the intention of it). I can't argue against this. This is why the town will either believe my actions for what they were as I explained them when I made them, or they will believe them for what you say which is that I had scummy intentions when I made those actions. I can't really argue against this and if the town lynches me for this then so be it.

I can how ever, argue against ICE, because he made up multiple untrue 'facts' about me to try an add to your case Benmage, this is why I find him scummy. It wasn't just one post and it wasn't just about the vote. As I showed he did it numerous times about numerous things, extending back to his case on Ell and his comments about the double standards. When I argued with him, I wasn't doing it with the intentions of trying to clear myself from your accusations, I did what I did and I can't change that whether you read it as scummy or not is up to you, when I argued with him, I did it to show how he was being scummy. I think you will come to see this with the rest of your read (as I believe you are only up to page 18?). If the town lynches me based on ICEs accusations, which are just exactly what you said + incorrect statements about me trying to make your case more substanstial, well then, I can't do much other than hope that you will learn from my death and heed my words more carefully tomorrow and lynch ICE or Retro.

[el simo]

Mmmm I didn't just admit to them, I admitted them on page 18. And also you are glad you made the mistake, as if I was only focusing on your vote. But I wasn't - and you did a lot more than just mistake the vote. So I don't get why you are so glad about it. In my experience I've never seen someone misrepresent the truth so much and not be lynched.

[el simo]

Yah I can't argue there, his flip would give us more info. But at this point in time I am not convinced that he is scum, so I'm not willing to lynch him, not just for more information.

[el simo]

Oh boy..

[el simo]

Eh, glad to see votes on ICE but Smit I think you got it there for the wrong reasons bud.

[el simo]

Now I'm stuck in a shit position, because I defended Ell from a crap case against him, when some valid points are raised that I agree with people are just going use that to make me look scummy.

[el simo]

OH MY GOD SMIT DID SOMETHING GOOD <333 NOW, IF MORE PEOPLE BESIDES SMIT SUPPORT A LYNCH ON ICE, CAN WE DO IT NOW

You seem desperate to lynch me, and yet there is significantly more steam on your second suspect. You wouldn't happen to be trying to keep a scum buddy alive, would you?

Why should he vote his second suspect over you? You were just grinding me about unvoting my main suspect to look at other players, but now you want TL to do the same? Aye?

[el simo]

Now I'm stuck in a shit position, because I defended Ell from a crap case against him, when some valid points are raised that I agree with people are just going use that to make me look scummy.

It was scummy. Are you confident in an Elleran lynch all of a sudden? From this post one would conclude you expect Elleran to flip scum.

Not at all, it's just I feel as if the town are pressuring me into keeping a townie stance on Ell because of the recent events, despite what happens afterwards. I wouldn't move my vote from Ell but the recent points mentioned by ICE

are

valid points.

I think it's interesting how much el simo is buddying benmage. ICE and I are absolutely wrong AND scum and complete morons for thinking he is mafia. However, he refers to Benmage an a very different way. I brought up the self-incrimiation tell earlier and simo is admitting to EVERYTHING ben has thrown at him, and just reflecting with saying "But really it's this..." The reasons why this is so hypocritical is because we're essentially saying the same thing.

This is because Benmage hasn't lied about my actions or used fallacious arguments to defend himself or accuse other people. I've said it numerous times and will say it again, Benmage stated his case, I denied one aspect (still do) but the rest of it I accepted as their (talking way back 10 pages ago) is nothing that can be argued against. I didn't vote Ell, I did go back and forth between him, I was non-committal. ICE then took this, added a bunch of stuff that didn't happen, and when I told him they didn't happen you refused to look at my posts to see that ICE was talking bum and then just tried to refute my case against him by saying all I'm saying is that he is wrong, even though he was quite clearly was. Not only this but you started talking bum about me too! Absolutely I am going to say you are wrong, you are telling the town I did stuff that you can't quote me on because I didn't do them. And neither of you are morons, you just play with your emotions instead of your brain.

[el simo]

As for the self admittance fact scum tell part, I disagree. What did you expect me to do? Argue that I wasn't being non-committal? Aye? How? I did what I did, Ben said it was scummy, that is all there is to it and it is up to the rest of the town to decide on who they agree with. There is no possible argument I could take up with Ben on this. To have tried to say that he was wrong is to do what you did and try and say WIFOM isn't scummy. I'm not as stubborn as you Retro and as I said earlier, a good townie knows when to stop. For me to argue would be futile as there is nothing I can say on the matter other than I took my actions for the reasons I explained when I took them. The rest is up to the town to decide.

[el simo]

ELLERAN I KNOW YOU ARE A GUY BUT FOR SOME REASON WHEN EVER I TYPE ABOUT YOU I TYPE SHE AND HER AND THEN GO BACK AND EDIT MY POST AND I'M NOT REALLY BOTHERED ANYMORE SO I'M JUST GOING TO LEAVE THE SHE'S AND HERS IN THERE.

Eh I disagree with most of that Slaxx. It isn't her statements that bother me, it's the fact that she does nothing, ever. One could say this is because she is busy, but I doubt that. If she was busy she wouldn't be reading the game so closely. We know that she is doing this because as soon as someone mentions her name and puts a vote on her she pops out of no where and addresses the statement, then returns straight back to her lurking. This is what bothers me about her.

[el simo]

I"m at a friend's house doing an overnight starcraft II lanparty :3

Anyway, if I can't have an el simo/sweep lynch, I'll settle for Elleran.

Unvote; Vote: Elleran

Let's see the reactions.

Also my case against DH still stands. obvious mafia is obvious.

And you guys called me wishy washy?

[el simo]

Eh sorry just remembered his unvote of me was a joke.

[el simo]

Meh, when you say it like that, I agree and think "MUST LYNCH NOW". But this is about the only thing I agree with el simo on this game, I think that Elleran's responses weren't great, but they never screamed mafia to me... I just see someone who isn't providing much. Granted, what I see doesn't indicate alignment at all. My very slight scumread on Elleran is mostly just a lack of towntells.

Meh, if a el simo/sweep lynch doesn't get steam, I guess I'll vote Elleran.

Eitherway I find it disturbing that he is willing to lynch someone based on these premises.

[el simo]

You're both wishy washy.

If Ell flips town, which he won't if there is any decency in the world, then I'll reformat my whole line of thinking.

Mmm imo if he flips scum, it's not for the reasons you outlined in your last post. His posting habits are a lot more telling then his 'cases'.

[el simo]

How have I been arguing theory?

I have only argued theory with you

Hmm..

Taken out of context and out of time. That quotes is referring to about 20 pages ago when I was attacking Retro, not to your statement when I was attacking ICE. I never argued theory with ICE like you said.

As for the self admittance fact scum tell part, I disagree. What did you expect me to do? Argue that I wasn't being non-committal?

I don't believe you admitted to being scum. I was, however, interested to see how you would react to such a question.

Eh sorry this was referring to Retro.

simo, why do make the mistake that Elleran is female? I mean I'd understand if he had that name and an avatar of a female anime character or something, but women don't play starcraft. It is a scientifically proven fact.

The name Elleren strikes me as female.

Mod: I don't feel the strikes get too cluttered, it's easy enough to look at the numbers and the names that aren't stroked out and figure out what's going on.

[el simo]

If anyone has some really good evidence why we should lynch someone other than Elleran, then bring it forward. Otherwise, I think it is time to force a claim then hammer.

Yah, see: my case. ;P

[el simo]

It's late, I'm tired, and not much has happened in the last few pages. It looks like an Elleran lynch is inevitable, so I want to hold my thoughts until tomorrow when we have a few flips. K?

No, not really. You haven't posted your thoughts on anything recently and have contributed shit all and I don't like the sound of you going all WIFOM on us based off the night kills. Your posts are all "so sorry I'm too busy/tired/scummy to make a post I'll do it later k?" I'm honestly willing to lynch you just on this alone. At least Ell tried to explain why she isn't doing anything.

[el simo]

I just don't wanna waste my time posting a ton of stuff when a whole lot of it could become irrelevant based on what happens over night.

I will say that I am still primarily suspicious of Elleran and Sweep.

How will anything you've noticed become irrelevant because someone is going to be killed? This is rubbish.

[el simo]

Eh I thought Ell was at L-1 lol.

[el simo]

simo...really..still voting jase?

No?

[el simo]

:@Mod: my vote is on ICEninja.

[el simo]

Dang...I was trying to speed read the few pgs I was behind in. Oh wells. If I missed anything major, let me know tomorrow. I won't bother reading now, unless I live through the night.

I'd be surprised if anybody on my wagon is killed tonight, I'm sure you'll be appropriately fine in the morning.

[el simo]

Dang...I was trying to speed read the few pgs I was behind in. Oh wells. If I missed anything major, let me know tomorrow. I won't bother reading now, unless I live through the night.

I'd be surprised if anybody on my wagon is killed tonight, I'm sure you'll be appropriately fine in the morning.

You're right, all us scumbuddies were teaming together to lynch you. We never had any valid arguments.

Yeah, because that is exactly what I said and or implied.

[el simo]

That you'd be alive in the morning?

[el simo]

That you'd be alive in the morning?

Just because I was voting you....?

Essentially.

[el simo]

Because the majority of the town have already expressed suspicion of me, I think tomorrow will end with my lynch, I think scum will keep people on my wagon alive. <- I understand this is WIFOM, but no more than it is to assume that you are going to be the one killed tonight. I'm not using it to attack anybody, accuse anyone, defend myself, or anything. It's just an observation that has no affect on the game.


inb4retrolol

[el simo]

Because the majority of the town have already expressed suspicion of me, I think tomorrow will end with my lynch, I think scum will keep people on my wagon alive. <- I understand this is WIFOM, but no more than it is to assume that you are going to be the one killed tonight. I'm not using it to attack anybody, accuse anyone, defend myself, or anything. It's just an observation that has no affect on the game.


inb4retrolol

If you were worried about this why in god's name would you say it? Here, mafia, this is what you can do to win. I mean seriously. I can't see a town perspective.

alsowifomlol

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... ront_Of_Me

^ The above link makes me automatically town.

You really are thick sometimes Retro. I will answer that first sentence tomorrow.

---

OMFG WIFOM isn't scummy guys geez its just advanced logic that you don't understand duuuh unvote vote retro man I hate you so much ffff!

[el simo]

I wouldn't be telling scum how to play if you're town, simo. Then again, if you were scum you could use this to your advantage.

Again, will answer Retro tomorrow.

[el simo]

Mod Edit: REDACTED.

Since I never specified it in the rules, I'm going to let you know of it now: Do not post in the windows where the thread is open at night for edits to the OP and such. Once is a warning, twice is a modkill.

[el simo]

Mod Edit: REDACTED.

Since I never specified it in the rules, I'm going to let you know of it now: Do not post in the windows where the thread is open at night for edits to the OP and such. Once is a warning, twice is a modkill.

Sorry the post was literally made right after yours, check the time, it didn't even give me the somebody posted before you warning.

Ell flipping scum is a pretty big point in favor of myself and Slaxx being town, among other people.

Orly?

vote: diddin

Ten "slaxx" points to who ever guesses why.

Simo, what changed your mind towards the end of day 1 that Elleran was indeed scum?

A post by Slaxx that made me realize he was ONLY posting when pressured.

Although ecstatic with the outcome of yesterdays lynch, I realize how it makes me look in most of your eyes, I'm almost expecting my lynch today, as I was at the end of yesterday when I started to suspect Ell again, and with me leaving for a month in less than a week it is most likely the wisest thing to do. But we got a week of discussion until then so let's not start hopping on wagons just yet.

[el simo]

Agreed, except I'm definitely above Retro. He was pussyfooting around the Elleran lynch, but gave in anyway.

Yeah had diddin not tipped us off I would've started here.

[el simo]

For the record, el simo will not be receiving a warning for night-posting - initially because it was left out of the rules, and now solidified because apparently I ninja'd him and the lousy serer didn't even bother to tell him.

Votecount tonight or tomorrow.

<3

We're not going to lynch anyone within a week. If you want to see a trainwreck after scum was caught d1, go read mininormal "Murder in the Desert". No, I've learned. I am taking my time. My sweet ass time.

I just fear for any potential replacement of mine. Either way I will fully commit myself to this week

[el simo]

I gotta go to work but i just wanted to say that el simo is so bad at this game its funny. Im about 95% everyone you've ever fosd this game is town. You're either mafia or just a liability to town.

LOL ignorance is bliss init Retro?

---

I don't like some (?) people have cleared diddin for not moving off the Ell wagon, mostly because he comes out day 2 saying that he is now confirmed for lynching Ell. Anybody too busy trying to clear their name off WIFOM like that instead of trying to catch scum dings a bell with me, which is why I voted him just earlier.

Retro may have a point about Sweep and I'm going to have to invest a reread on him to confirm some points seeing as we've seen how ICE and Retro like to bend the facts to make their cases fit more cosy.

I have no idea what to think of Smit, I've never seen a noob give up so easily. Perhaps he is disheartened that his buddy is dead? Who knows, as Ben would say I'm not even going to get into that wine.

If TL doesn't start posting more actively he is going to be getting my vote too.

I still don't like Jase. His posting habits are still terribly inactive and his content is regurgitated junk. About the only thing that he has produced himself is a push on Ell to post more, which isn't exactly ground breaking townie stuff, seeing as that was pretty commonplace for everyone at the time. He is honestly just as guilty as Ell was of actively lurking. People keep arguing that he is posting more content but it has all been clearly parroted information. I made a note about his content yesterday but didn't say what because I wanted to see if he'd actually come up with something on his own with out anybody noting that he has just been repeating information, but he didn't.

---

I'm honestly struggling to figure out where to aim today. Retro has been consistently poor with his logic, but the consistency makes me feel it is a lot more of a inexperience type thing, he also has had a few nuggets tucked away between his constant jibber jabber. I find it hard to believe that ICE can make so many mistakes and then just brush it aside as a mistake, and NOBODY else finds this scummy. TL's activity level makes me want to cry and Diddins WIFOM makes me want to cry more. I think the only place I feel confident and comfortable placing my vote at this point is on Jase. [bUnvote.[/b]

Vote: Jase

[el simo]

EBWOP

Unvote,
vote: Jase.

[el simo]

How you can say this and not notice Sweep is baffling to me.

I still don't like Jase. His posting habits are still terribly inactive and his content is regurgitated junk. About the only thing that he has produced himself is a push on Ell to post more, which isn't exactly ground breaking townie stuff, seeing as that was pretty commonplace for everyone at the time. He is honestly just as guilty as Ell was of actively lurking. People keep arguing that he is posting more content but it has all been clearly parroted information. I made a note about his content yesterday but didn't say what because I wanted to see if he'd actually come up with something on his own with out anybody noting that he has just been repeating information, but he didn't.

Also he was the only one who followed me on Sweep and made arguments of his own. Selective reading?

Lol go through his posts and quote all his own original content, then maybe you will see my point.

Oh and saying how you want to cry twice in your post is NOT "very Rambo-esque of you". IJS.

First Blood Part One bro. Regardless, this post just proves my point about you. You purposely disagree with everything I do because I think you're bad. You're constantly trying to nab at me and belittle my arguments by demeaning me. Stop letting your emotions get in the way and play the game for the sake of the town, not your own appearance.

Slaxx, comparing Retro to Smit is like comparing apples to oragnes. Retro actually has shown that he is intelligent, Smit is yet to do that.

[el simo]

I'm not sure what to think of him. I mentioned earlier that his weak resolve might be due to scums crap position but that isn't something I want to get into at all. His logic has been poor and his votes bad, but poor logic doesn't mean scummy. I am fairly certain he just has no idea what is going on. His very first post proves that he is pretty incapable at this game, as he straight insists on ignoring all the pages and content and votes no lynch, nobody in their right mind would do this, regardless of role. Taking into account his join date, I honestly feel he is an easy mislynch for scum.

@Retro: I've already stated that I am going to reread Sweep based on your accusations.

[el simo]

I think it is a bit harsh reading that much into IAmNobodies four posts.

[el simo]

Another reason why my vote will stay on Slaxx. Next Elleran, sweep and el simo.

AKA Vote: Townie FoS: Scumbuddy. Classic scum tactic.[/quote]

This is a fair point.

[el simo]

Smit those implications are your own, not mine.

[el simo]

Seriously, wtf does this even mean: "AKA Vote: Townie FoS: Scumbuddy. Classic scum tactic."

You used a common scum tactic on a player who you only mentioned like once before. AKA you're scum.

If you read earlier, yes I've played a very lazy game, but that does not mean I haven't picked up on other player's notes.

What does that have to do with his tell?

[el simo]

Nothing, but uuummm, still don't understand the tell ....

Move on here, nothing to see.

The tell is saying that you tried to distance yourself from Ell by suspecting him but never actually doing anything to lynch him.

Unvote,
vote: Smitser.

Squirm more.

[el simo]

What did it more for me was his reactions to the votes. I expect most noobs to cry, AtE and and give up asking to be lynched. This coupled with Diddins find is enough for me.

[el simo]

Eh that was in response to DH.

[el simo]

I guess since Diddin post pictures and DH posts Youtube videos I need to find another outlet through which to express my opinions.

Try dance

[el simo]

Anyways, as of right now I'd like today to end with a Simo lynch I think. His actions towards Ell speak to me of distancing. Astoundingly obvious distancing. To put it in the simplest terms I can manage he said he'd hammer Ell, but he didn't place a vote, and later said the reason was because he was not convinced by the case. Offering to hammer someone but refusing to vote them because "You don't find the case on them convincing" seems like a helluva contradiction. He never gave a satisfying answer for why he did that, and I suspect that is because the only solid explanation he could offer is something to the tune of "I did it because I'm playing towards the same win conditions as he was".

Lol get it right. I didn't hammer her because she refuted the reasons why I found her scummy. I didn't offer to hammer despite not finding the case on her convincing, this is rubbish. I offered to hammer her because I found her scummy for three reasons, she took my biggest reason which was her double standards, told me why she wasn't holding double standards, made me realize ICE was wrong, so I took back my intent to hammer. There is no contradiction. Maybe if you posted more and actually read the thread you'd know this instead of making up false quotes and misrepresenting my actions.

[el simo]

OH right I forgot to mention - the reason why I was going about the night kills yesterday evening was to try and introduce some WIFOM into scums night action choice process. Not sure what outcome it had last night - if any at all. Eitherway I'm pleased with the nights results.

[el simo]

Ok so, that still leaves you offering to hammer, but not placing a vote. I can't think of a legitimate reason for that. You say you had the intent to hammer, but you didn't place a vote. You say you had the intent to hammer, but you didn't place a vote. You say you had the intent to hammer, but you didn't place a vote. That's the part I have a problem with. Any explanation why you needed to be the hammer dropper?

Yup I wanted my vote on you.

[el simo]

It's a little concerning how fast these wagons are moving.

[el simo]

Also, my wagon had most heat at that point in time. What would you have all thought of Ell if I had been lynched and I flipped town?

[el simo]

Also, my wagon had most heat at that point in time. What would you have all thought of Ell if I had been lynched and I flipped town?

So you're saying that Elleran didn't vote you because we would be more suspicious of him later IF you flipped town, so instead he allowed himself to be lynched day one? Is that seriously your argument?

What, no? Where did you get that from? Would you have been more suspicious of Ell had I been lynched and flipped town?

[el simo]

From what? You are accusing me for something Ell did.

[el simo]

That's NOT what I'm saying. I would've thought having a townie defend Ell to his own death would've given him points for townie. I don't see why me being town makes him scummier. Regardless, the point doesn't matter if you think me flipping town makes him look scummier.

[el simo]

He's right. Why would he not have hopped on your wagon? Its not like he thought you were town (because he knew your alignment).

I realize you can't defend yourself from that, so why don't you give two FoSs and legitimate reasons why you FoS those people? I am waiting on Sweep's too.

I've already done this.

[el simo]

Yup because everyone else on the Smit wagon all voted for their absolute own reasons and wasn't agreeing with diddin.

[el simo]

Are you dumb? Not even giving me a chance to claim? Placing what may have been the hammer vote based on the actions of another player? You constantly spouting WIFOM that he was trying to get me to survive, well here is some WIFOM for you, how do you know he didn't make those comments about me to try and set up a mislynch after his death? EVERYTHING you have said about me today has been completely subjective and has been complete WIFOM. At least from all this, Retro, when I'm dead and gone you will realize why WIFOM is such a anti town thing, because it's just sent you all on a wild goose chase. If you are town Retro, I seriously suggest you /in for some newbie games. If you are scum, well done at playing dumb, you've got the rest of the town fooled.

I'm at L-1 btw. And I am VT.

[el simo]

Well, see, the thing is, El Simo.

A) That was deflection

No it is inconsistent logic on your part.

B) You just argued about the speed of your own wagon as a defense but you were more than happy to hop on the Smit wagon.

My wagon was a lot quicker and went further.

[el simo]

Oh how convenient Retro doesn't buy the other side of his WIFOM argument.

[el simo]

Slaxx I really don't think it's going to work.

[el simo]

No offence to Elleran, but Elleran didn't do anything to suggest he could think this far ahead.

This coupled with my case against you yesterday has me next to positive you're mafia.

Oh which am I btw? Scum or town?

YOUR case on me? You mean that post where you took what Benmage said and then added stuff I didn't do to it?

[el simo]

What?

Sure it will. I have an awesome persuasive personality.

No I mean Sweep.

[el simo]

Eeeh you're not getting what I'm getting at.

[el simo]

I can't - not with out giving it away. :\