Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[Retrospective]

/i exist.

Hey guys, this is my second game on this site but I'm familiar with the concept of mafia from EpicMafia. If you play there (hi richard & slaxx) you probably know me as LOLUMAD.

Things you should know about me:
-From my experience from my first game (on-going), my tells are very different from what ms'ers are generally used to. Cut me some slack and give me a chance to explain myself, and I promise I'll try to make sense.
-As a general rule, I post multiple times daily. If you don't know where I stand on a topic, I'm probably mafia.
-Apparently I like text walls. Sorry if that's an issue for anyone here.
-I will try to fully explain all of my tells on each person very frequently. However, my reads will be pretty fluid as more content is introduced. If you don't believe me, check out Mini 1050.

Looking forward to playing with you guys!

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IV: Do not talk about this game outside of this thread or mod-provided QuickTopics, even with people who are dead or not in this game. Do not discuss or reference ongoing games in this thread. Both are two-strikes-and-you're-out (modkillable) offences.

>.<

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I referenced an on-going game in my first post. Except the game /just/ ended.

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So how do these setups where no one knows each other's roles work? If someone claims a pr that isn't in the game we still have to guess if they're scum or not?

Also I'm a firm believer that random voting is pointless. I understand that people are gonna argue theory saying that its the best way to get the game going and it tells a bunch of about the character of everyone playing. But in my opinion, the information from random votes is almost just as reliable as the votes. When you see me vote, it'll be because I think that person is scum.

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I refuse. >:[

However, I somewhat agree with your super super premature read based on one post from TheLonging. If I had to point at someone that I wouldn't be voting in a random vote, it would be him.

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I disagree. Almost all reactions to random votes are null tells based on how new the player is. For instance in my first game, I flipped shit when my friend had two random votes on her in the very beginning of the game because I thought everyone was just auto lynching her 'to get the game started'. Anyway, I quickly learned that no one takes RVS seriously and everyone just bandwagons. People in random votes vote for

random

reasons or for the sake of voting with others. None of any of this is indicative of alignment.

Anyway, I agree with discussions in early game, I just think that there's so many null tells involved in Random voting that its just a waste of time.

RVS or no RVS is pretty much a matter of personal opinion. And just how I feel that random votes don't indicate alignment, neither does my disapproval in random voting.

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You just completely ignored what I said, well done.

Thanks

For the record, I only saw Matt's post.

And how do you figure? What has our little argument over random voting told you about alignment thus far?

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Because you already know all three mafia?

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Nope. Retro you're pretty good at picking up hints and I already know your style of play so I would prefer you not answer the question. I want to learn something new about somebody.

Can I at least get one point for effort though?

And sounds interesting, I'm game. o.o

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You get unlimited slaxx points because I already know you're a good scumhunter. And I will know your alignment by the end of the day, and you will know mine too. Its just come from months of playing EM with you.

This means if one of us gets NK'd the other is probably mafia xD (like always)

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xD You know its true!

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el simo who is your alt..or main?

vote iceninja

wannabe sub zero.

Now this is a good reason for voting someone!

Benmage is 100% town.

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@ICE; I'm not sure if it's just because you're in a aggressive mood, but I'm noticing a very big difference in your play between this game and last. You were much more passive in the last game (especially this early). Considering that you were mafia, I'd say this is a good sign. :>

I've already answered most of your questions in my first post. I'm in Central Time Zone, GMT - 6. (Daylight saving time isn't factored in.)

Retro doesn't know much about closed setups. He's obviously never played in one before, and he definitely doesn't know how many scum are going to be in the game. Yet he specifically stated that there were 3 mafia. How would town know how many mafia are in this game? An experienced MSer may be able to make an educated guess based on past experience with closed mini games based on how many players there are, but I don't think Retro has the experience at all to be able to say without hesitation that there are 3 mafia. Very interesting indeed.

After I typed that up I wondered if I was right. I made the assumption that there would be three. Our last game, ICE, there were two mafia with nine players so I assumed the extra three players their would be another mafia. Am I wrong? I feel like the game would be a bit unbalanced given the fact that no one knows each other's roles with four mafia.

As far as your read on Sweep is concerned, I dismiss his play thus far as typical RVS. I'm interested to how he reactions to the pressure though.

@Slaxx; I guessed it, but I had help because I was reading your other game where Socrates made the same connection as you did.

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I thought you didn't want me to answer.

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@ICE; I'm not sure if it's just because you're in a aggressive mood, but I'm noticing a very big difference in your play between this game and last. You were much more passive in the last game (especially this early). Considering that you were mafia, I'd say this is a good sign. :>

Uhh... I don't know what to say about this. Maybe Ice simply learned from his previous game and is now a better player. I wouldn't let go suspicion so easily.[/quote]
I'm not saying he's automatically town. I'm just noting the change. His playstyle is significantly different. He's going much further on a limb. This has me leaning town on ICE for the time being.

@Sweep case on Slaxx; If Slaxx was gonna buddy me, he would make it much less hella obvious. The fact that he said 'I'm right' is evidence enough to prove that he was joking because there is no way he could know he is right on the second page. My only other game there was a player who was telling people to follow him without giving reason and town called it a towntell.

@ICE; I'm actually not sure how to refute this. You're wrong on it being a scumslip because I'm not scum. But it was exactly that, a slip. I was joking around with slaxx not really thinking about the setup. I was just messing with him beause he was trying to make a scumhunting point and I guessed an answer that was obviously not the reason he was looking for. And this isn't a very good defense against a scumslip case considering a scumslip case centers around a slip when scum isn't thinking, but this is the best I can do. I didn't know there was a possibility of four mafia because I didn't really consider it. I think this is a bad reason for voting because you and I both know it can have just as easily been a null tell from me messing around with Matt as a scumtell.

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Note: Sorry for the wall of text, but if you're gonna suspect me you should probably get used to it. >.< I typically have a lot to say.

Wow, this is much less fun when everyone is suspecting you D:
Alright let's see if I can get you guys to stop voting me.

First, all of you guys are taking slaxx and I messing around way too seriously. He wasn't literally saying he was right, he was joking. I think this should be obvious given that no one is sure in a RVS as an RVS is a *gasp* RVS. I was excited I was in a game with slaxx and we were messing around, that's over now. All you guys are tearing apart everything I say for any possible molecule of a scumtell and now I'm not in a joking mood :<
Something to keep in mind: If you look hard enough, you'll always be able to find someting that somehow can tie into a possible scumtell. (Except so far I don't see how any of you can say I scumtelled except maybe my guess regarding the number of mafia) You guys need to look at the big picture not every minute detail. I learned this the hard way because I tore someone's ISO apart looking for a way to convince town to vote him, and I had a very persuasive case even though he was town. >.>

Alright, time to get you guys to go bandwagon someone else!

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el simo; You put words in my mouth that I ever said. Or at least you interrupted what I was saying incorrectly. I wasn't saying slaxx did anything "that was so obviously scummy he couldn't be scum." This is because I think he hasn't done anything scummy at all. I was saying that I disagree with RVS and he was saying "but I'm right, trust me." There's nothing indicative of scum anywhere about that. Telling me to follow him because he was right on a RVS was obviously a joke. (I'm actually surprised you guys aren't understanding this) I was defending Slaxx because Sweep took an obvious joke for a scumtell. Also, I have a tendency to defend players when I feel that an arguement against them is weak or just out right wrong. I also seem to do this more for people I like, ie. Slaxx. Ask ICE, I did it for the first 4 pages in our last game. So there was no WIFOM about that. (Gah, I hate that word 'cause everyone uses it to describe anything other than the most rudimentary logic) So I believe your argument about be defending Slaxx as my scumbuddy falls.

Your whole case is based on Slaxx and I being scum. But you know for that to work, would Slaxx have to be scum too? From my experience with Mafia, (which is actually quite a bit, I'm pretty good at EM) Mafia rarely rarely addresses their partners. Or wants to know what their partners are saying, or questions the logic of their partners unless they are bussing. Another thing mafia partners never do is try to convince the other to vote with them. It is mafia's natural tendency to avoid their partner because they do not want the others to draw a connection between them to. Now go and reread all of the interactoins between Slaxx and I. This doesn't fit into that formula at all. It's actually pretty blatantly the opposite.

Lastly, I'm not saying that slaxx is town (Well, kind of because my read on him is townsided so far) but I a slaxx/me scumbuddy team is impossible. The fact that I'm not mafia at all adds to that fact as well.

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Gahh, more poeple are posting in the little Post Review thing

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@slaxx; In all the games that you've been with me, have you ever seen me make a slip?

I think legimate scumslips happen later in game, this early in the game mafia should be reading and double reading all their posts to make sure nothing they've said is scummy.

Alright, now that you're done, reread what I said with the idea that "Hmm, maybe he's telling the truth" Then read the thread (Oh, c'mon, it's short) and tell me if you still think I'm mafia.

[Retrospective]

I just caught up. As far as the me guessing the number of mafia, they're not much more that can be said. You either think it was a scumslip or not. I did my best to explain it, it was a spur of the moment type thing. Considering there is no way for me to prove to you my train of thought, there is also no way for anyone else to prove I 'knew' the number of mafia because I was mafia. I'd appreciate if people would stop talking about this because I feel dumb and that it could easily go both ways and is essentially a nulltell.

Anyway, I find myself disagreeing with almost everything that TheLonging posts, however I think he's town from the fallacious logic that everyone is telling me not to use. He's doing a lot of stuff I couldn't see scum doing. Scum is confident, yes. But not usually this early. I think he started a vote as a reaction test and jumped on the first person who followed in the RVS. His case is bad, but I have a town feeling on him because it's so wrong. He's also not following in everybody's footsteps by fos'ing completely different people than anyone else. Expect this read to be fluid because I can see mafia jumping on an easy target in much the same way. Over all townread on him. I suppose you could put this in the gut read section.

@TheLonging; RVS's are generally meaningless. Mafia will gladly vote their partner because their partner is in no real danger. Clearing someone because they were bandwagoned first is terrible. Same can be said for who followed first.

@ICE; Dropping the number of mafia argument, do you still have a scumread on me? If so, why?

@el simo; Play in games are not set in stone. Players alter how they do thinks all the time. It's time you consider the entire game around you, not just very basic tells. Town uses advanced logic just as much as mafia. Instead of dismissing the argument, look at the arguement and make a decision. The act of using logic on typical mafia mindset isn't a scumtell and I find it a bit amusing that you seem to think it is.

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k

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You do know why I'm voting you, right? Because so far you've only defended yourself from a whole lot of things I didn't say.

How do you figure? Which points have I left unrefuted?

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Well, maybe I'm confused but, the 'tangent' I went on was directly refuting your case. You mentioned how my actions were inductive of scum buddying with a scumbuddy. You used slaxx and I as your example. I then explained how Slaxx and I couldn't be scumbuddies. I'm sorry if I didn't word it how you'd like. However, you are misleading the situation

again.

I haven't ignored any of your points, and if I have then it shouldn't be too difficult for you to specify what they are. Stop speaking in generalities, you're trying to make me sound scummy without providing any actual context.

It's 4:30 AM here, I'm going to bed. Will reply more tomorrow.

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Yes they can, but really, do you expect scum to lead a BW on their own scum? I mean, from the VERY first vote on them? And that picked up FAST. 3 or 4 votes sure, but do you realize what the people voting for Sweep were doing? They just voted and latched on to Ice.

Honestly? Yes. There's no negative repercussions of voting your partner in a RVS. RVS is just that, random. Players do whatever they want because it doesn't generally matter and almost all of it is dismissed because it's sole useless. (This would be the reason I don't participate) Sure, once in a great while someting from an RVS can be useful but should never be the only reason why you're clear or suspect someone.

But Ice voted for Sweep OUT of RVS. He used a case on Sweep based on RVS votes really. That's kind of, you know, STUPID at best.

You know he's changed his vote since then, right?

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Politics, the economy? What more do you want me to say?

Bandwagons in RVS are not tells.
I think Retro is suspicious not because necessarily because of his absolute -> fuzzy (Although it is part of it) but also because of his explanation and defence being so weak.
Benmage is trying to play us.
The case against me was utter crap by ICE and must have been a gambit to draw out some scum looking for a bandwagon.

I have thought more than most players in this game already.

Why did you assume that ICE was using a gambit? This concerns me a bit because you seemed to have skipped over the possibility of him being scum. For this to be true, ICE would also have to be reasonably sure that you were town as well. Upon rereading, it appears he wasn't. This is an interesting reaction and I will probably bring this up later.

@Sweep; Do you think I'm scum or not? I can't tell.

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@Sweep; I just ISO'd you, and I don't see where you gave your read on ICE.

@TheLonging; Still think Sweep is clear?

@ICE; You mentioned that I'm a might jumpy, however you know this is how I play. My last game should be evidence enough of this. Foilist thought I was mafia and I went into all out war with him. My read on you is still townsided, but it worries me that you would use something that meta dictates I do as town as a scumtell.

I think at least one of the people currently voting me are mafia. Mark my words, mafia is gonna start voting me because they feel I'm a safe lynch now that I already have 3 people voting me.

So far I think el simo has a bit of vetern syndrome and isn't actually listening to anything I say.
I think that ICE is focusing on one sentence I made when Slaxx and I were messing around way too much and I'm curious how I rate on his scum-meter now.

I am the most suspicious of Sweep at the moment because of his last post where he implied that ICE was town even though he hasn't supplied any evidence to support this. I think this might have been a bit of a slip. Perhaps Sweep as mafia knows that ICE isn't a partner. If you look at the tone in his last post its pretty obvious that he doesn't think ICE is mafia.

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At this point I don't like ICE's vote on Sweep based on RVS. At the time there was discussion just starting to go on and of all things he decides to skip a random vote to vote someone FOR A RANDOM VOTE.

VOTE: ICE

This is the like the third time this has been said. I'm not seeing how this is all that scummy. Can you explain?

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@Sweep; I just ISO'd you, and I don't see where you gave your read on ICE.

I think that ICE has a current pro-town read. I have mentioned reasons before. #125 and #123

Okay, you just confirmed what I thought was scummy. In #123, what the first time you mentioned him and you seemed to automatically think he was town. Also, #125 doesn't count all you said was "ICE: Done".

Let's get some OMGUS up in here.

Vote: Sweep

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You younger players will probably not realize this but the RVS has been used as a tool for this sort of thing for as long as I can remember. You all continually say how useless it is and how any information provided from it are all null tells, but look at how much discussion it has yearned and look at how much useful information we have gathered from that. To say that the RVS is full of null is to say admit that you are a moron. It's as easy as that.

You misunderstand why I think he's mafia. I'm more concerned with WHY and how absolute his read was than what it actually was. I think Sweep is mafia because of the tone of his arguments. When you read his arguments, its easy to see he is taking a very very 'ICE is town' attitude. To the point that he even said that ICE's actions against him were a reaction test and not real. How could he know this? His level of certainty is what concerns me the most. I'm sorry, but I always think who is fos'ing me is mafia first. Because I think to myself "How could this person actually think my play is scummy? He must be making this stuff up because I am so obviously town." Such is human nature. So now you have to wonder, why did Sweep instantly assume ICE was town? Two things could be at work here.
First, Sweep could be mafia who knows that ICE is town because he's not one of his other partners. And in a sense slipped that ICE is absolutely town. [This one is more likley]
Or secondly, Sweep and ICE could both be mafia. Perhaps ICE's case against Sweep was to put some early pressure on Sweep in order to make it look like he suspects his partner in case he needs to bus.

.
The general gist of it is that he has no doubt in his mind that ICE is town and there's no way to be this certain this early. Especially giving that we have players voting ICE because they think he's mafia. It would be difficult for someone to get a damning scumread on someone at the same time another player all out clears someone. Also do not let him say, "I didn't all out clear ICE" because it is very clear what he truly thinks of ICE when you read his post. (Especially the one about the gambit.) At this point in time, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with my vote.

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I haven't made one mention of who is scum buddy is and I don't really care just yet. I haven't even called him scummy yet.

You have to see how one could draw the conclusing that you suspect Slaxx and myself from your post #71.

Firstly, scum don't intention buddy with their partner, mostly because it is a bad strategy but also because scum buddying is almost a natural reaction. You know who your partner is and so you take to him kindlier, you agree with him more to try have his opinion favoured hopefully manipulating the town to believe so as well, to try push false bandwagons, etc. Saying "he wouldn't make it" anything when referring to buddying is pretty null and void. Secondly, your argument is a logical fallacy. You are essentially say, "that is so obviously scummy he can't be scum." It is equivalent to saying, you are so townie you have to be scum.

Perhaps I drew the wrong conclusion, but I'm not the only person who drew the same conclusion so my defense again this argument isn't actually bad.
But anyway, excluding the Slaxx/Me team argument that I guess I concluded incorrectly. You're saying my reasoning for thinking Slaxx is town is wrong. And thus I'm scum? I hate to break it to you, but I'm not the only one who has used logic similar to that already this game. And there's been more than 3 (again, I assume) people that used it. Are they all scum? It's not possible. So at least one person who's used my logic is town. Therefor your fool proof logic argument obviously doesn't have as much merit as you're giving it. Am I missing more? Sorry, if you think I'm dense, but I need you to say your arguments against me clearly, or I will have trouble refuting them.

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Ok with everyone mentioning retro I'm going to read him. Fuck walls.

This worried me a bit. I still think he's overall town though.
And I'm sorry if you don't like my walls of text, but I have a lot to say and this is the only way I know to communicate and explain to you my thought process. If anything, me spilling my guts to all of you should make me easier to read.

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@Elleran; You managed to post and tell us why you've been busy. And I buy the excuse, but you got to give us something. Showing up and saying that you generally disagree or agree with arguments and then not saying which arguments they are is nothing short of active lurking.

@Slaxx; Thanks. ily. I've been trying to say that for a while and apparently it's not coming across correctly. There's absolutely way to tell from that statement my alignment. It's a nulltell and you guys need to move on.

@ICE; I know you're a good player, so it bothers me that you're still fos'ing me. Actually based on your last post, I'm not quite sure where you stand anymore. But no matter where it is, I can't see how you can justify pointing the figure in my direction any longer.

I still have a lot of null reads. A lot of the less outspoken users are blending together for me. I'm gonna have to ISO.

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@Mod; Jace is voting Sweep, not TL.

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@ el simo; Then there really isn't much more to argue. It's getting to the "OMG NO UR WRONG" state of this argument. Your whole case for me can be summed up into one thing: Playstyle. You're unfamiliar with the way I play, so you immediately amuse I'm scum. We obviously have a different opinion on how players play. Have you forgotten this is my second game in this meta? It's also a bit ironic that your whole case against me is is literally "I don't think you're arguments are good enough" when your argument isn't any better and completely baseless. It's one thing for your type of argument to be the cherry on top of a a bunch of actual damning points, but this is your whole case and is actually a bit amusing. Either pick through my play with a fine tip comb and try to find something LEGITIMATELY scummy, or pick someone else to tunnel on. It's gettin' old.

And this is the last time I will address my

"scumslip"

because it's bullshit and if you're gonna vote on that, then you deserve to lose and I'll welcome it as a ticket out of this game. Sure I could've left out the number three. Why don't you focus on that more and ignore what's going on around you more. Real impressive play.

(@ice/slaxx; I feel like I'm turning into foilist but for christ's sake!)

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My read on el simo is kinda eh. I feel like someone who has been playing for many years and over 30 games and such should be a better player. Or at least be able to find something more damning or know to move on. This is making me lean mafia on the sole fact that his arguements are wrong and if he was as good as he ought to be, he would have at least one good point on anyone else in this game. I'll post more on him later, right now my judgement is as clouded as his is.

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Nice AtE and OMGUS btw.

I must be mafia.

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Oh no! D: Was that another slip. Keep it up simo, you're on a roll!

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I'm just annoyed because I think it so fucking obvious I'm town and I can't tell if simo is thick skulled or mafia.

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I've given those, but mr veteran here likes to tunnel and not address anyone else in the thread other than me.

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So far I like DH. :O

I actually know how DH plays though because I stalked a lot of Slaxx's game with him (? for some reason I thought you were a girl, sorry! >.<) in it.
Anyway, welcome! I know you're active, so it should be fun.

[Retrospective]

I've given those, but mr veteran here likes to tunnel and not address anyone else in the thread other than me.

Yah because I've been trying to pry a response out of you that actually confronts what I said about you. I wasn't going to stop on you until you gave me a proper response to what I was actually accusing you of, not the nonsense you gave me instead. But now that I've made it as clear I can it seems you don't have one and instead just choose to cry, so my vote will stay on you until I find someone better.

This just says you're not reading because I've answered every little "omg i don't like how you play" argument you've thrown at me.

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@ Sweep; You couldn't have re-read too hard because I went into dept why you were mafia. Jace and DH posted less, but throughly explained as well.

Also, it's true, your post number has been higher than ICE's but the overall value of your posts have been much lower. His arguments have been his own. Almost everything you've said this game has been recycled from something that ICE or el simo has said. That's why I'm a bit confused why Slaxx said you were valuable to town because you're pretty much just a summary el simo and ICE.

and lol, I'm not even gonna refute your last statement as its a matter of opinion and I'm sure many would disagree wtih you. Also, you're scum. Also why the unvote if you were already voting me? Just for dramatic effect?

Big post incoming.

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Alright, time to go through my reads. A lot of my arguments are going to be based on people's interactions and reads with me. As both mafia and I know I'm town this is a significant way for me to look for scum. I understand that until you are sure I'm town a lot of these arguements carry less weight. So just save/bookmark this post or something for later, because I think it will be important later on.

I always rank my reads from 1-10. 1 being absolute scum, 5 being neutral and 10 being absolute town. (You will very rarely see me go above 8 and below 2)

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DevilHybrid:

I really like how he outlined the thread. This method made it very easy to see his stances on everything that happened and actually took away a potential advantage he had. Since he was joining late, his points could start midday and skip over potentiality suspicious actions. Mafia could also have taken advantage of the situation because he could have easily read through the game and picked the most scummy person to vote. He could follow with the rest of the town and not generally make a splash, and do what mafia does best. But instead, DH made several new arguments and statements that were his own. he also agreed and disagreed with several aspects of the game from various players. Seems like geuine scumhunting to me. So far so good. The main reason why I think DH is town is because I am the easy mafia target. I have several people putting pressure on me and he could have easily just said "I agree." I think if DH were mafia aligned, he wouldn't have supported me and said it wasn't a slip, especially when everyone else was saying it was. This shows he's actually bringing his own thought into the game and not just following the easiest target or agreeing with town. So far I have a very solid town read on him. -- 8.

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TheLonging:

TL is more tricky because I can see both a mafia and a town motivation for his play so far. However, there are parts where I think he made blatant towntells and thus he is my second highest town read right now. His instant hard attack/clear could be one of two things. 1, he could be mafia who was trying to latch on to any possible scumtell as early as possible. 2, he was town who felt like he set a trap for mafia and successfully caught two mafia, thus clearing someone. I disagree with his logic, but I think I can see where he is coming from. I think if he were mafia, he would've jumpped at the idea of a town making a statement that with a bit of tweaking could be put into a scummy light. (ex. Sweep, el simo)
Now on to the towntell's I have on him.

If I understood his arguments correctly, he is completely confident that ICE is scum. (This would be the reason why he thinks Sweep is town.) When ICE made then switched his argument to me, TL disregarded it as scum pushing on someone else. I cannot see this action from a mafia perspective because it puts you in a scummy light to blatently ignore posts and arguments. However, TL did it because he felt that there was no way that ICE could be telling the truth.
Secondly, TL cannot be Sweep's partner. The blatant buddying/defending is much too strong. Scum buddies try to make other's view their partner in positive light, but they also attempt to hide their connection. You'll usually see narrow buddying and a lot of not addressing each other. Or in the case of bussing, a sudden shift in the attitude toward that target that makes it quite obvious. -- 7.

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ICEninja:

So far I think his play has been pretty townsided. He overly aggressive stance in early to late RVS makes me think he is town just because I spent two weeks playing with him and I feel like I have a pretty good handle on how he plays. He's playing much more recklessly and doesn't seem like he's afraid to get his hands dirty. This is almost a polar opposite from last game where he was gentle and timid with almost all of his voting and reads. As far as his case on Sweep goes, I don't think it was that strong, but I absolutely don't think there was anything scummy about it. I somewhat agreed with it, but I wasn't feeling sure enough to vote on the matter yet. With this alone, I would probably rank him around a 7. However, there are things that worry me.

Retro is blatantly refusing and ignoring the logic set by other players. In my eyes, I feel like town is more likely to do this than scum during the early stages of the game, because scum doesn't like being singled out. Town is more likely to stick to their true beliefs.

To me this seemed like a pretty strong (an accurate ) read, however the next post his views on me flipped a 180. I don't think the "slip" that is utter bullshit should have had this much of an impact on his first town read.
I'm looking forward to seeing how he responds to the new advancements in this game and will refine my read on him after he does so. -- 6

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Slaxx:

I started out the game with a very strong town read on Slaxx. The way he was already eliminating scumbuddy teams and trying to get people to discuss logic long before RVS was over gave me this read. But since the beginning I feel like his play has steady became less and less town. I started to doubt his alignment when he was worried over my slip. I feel like he knows me well enough that he should have posted that it was a null tell looooonngg before he did. At this point in time, his vote is a means of lurker hunting. This is something, I've seen mafia do in my last game. It gives the illusion of scumhunting and looks like the person is interested in discussion. Without seeing who he really suspects, I have a hard time getting a solid read on him. [My read on him will solidify once I see him in action as I am pretty familiar with his play style] At the start of of this game, I would've given Slaxx and 9. However, due to recent events I'm feel less secure about him. He is still townsided though. -- 6

[Something I noticed about Slaxx that I'm trying not to let affect my read because its really subjective: I noticed that he generally seemed happy when the game started. I know Slaxx dislikes mafia and if he were mafia he would already know his partners and know I was not one of them. I think he would've started the game in a less flamboyient manner if this were the case.]

--------

I'm going to skip over my null reads because they haven't posted enough for me to get a clear read on them. I will elaborate on them further down the line.

--------

el simo:

The best way to describe my read on el simo is confused. I'm confused because after reading, I can pin a mafia motiviation on just about everything he's done this game, however almost everyone in this game has said he is town. I'm going to go into why I think he is mafia but I would very much appreciate if someone could explain just what el simo has done to make everyone so sure he is town. I must be missing something big, because I don't see it at all.

el simo's play this game has in my opinion is fake. His arguments and his cases seem completely canned. This is a phrase we used to use in debate for a pre-packaged case that you bring into the round and try to make the topic fit into it rather than build a case over what's particularly is happening in the topic. I read this as a hard scumtell because town is concerned about FINDING scum, whereas mafia is concerned about MAKING town look like scum. Canned cases are used to make the illusion of real scumhunting, but when you really examine in dept it becomes pretty clear there's no real scumhunting going on.

First, his case:
el simo's case this game has been a mix of disregarding arguments for buzz words (Wifom, AtE, OMGUS) and bringing the round into his wiki link.
He keeps taking arguments made by various people and saying that their invalid because it fits into one of the buzz words that he likes to use so much. This is classic discrediting. He's trying to discredit the source of all the members of town. Another example of him discrediting town, is the fact that he keeps saying that I haven't refuted his case or completely ignored his points when if you actually read the arguements, you can see that I in fact have not ignored any of his points. It's an endless circle of him discrediting my arguments and then saying that I haven't responded.
Let's look at his case in more detail. He is saying that due to the arguments I made regarding Slaxx being town, I am doing something that his wiki says mafia

sometimes

does. He's stated his case various times and it's always been exactly the same. "The logic you are using sorta kinda fits into this wiki that says you could be mafia, so /vote." First, my arguments haven't been filled with this massive amount of wifom that makes them unable to follow. They've all been pretty straight forward. I discussed human nature when playing mafia. I explained how typical mafia plays and how Slaxx and myself have not fit into such definitions. Perhaps you guys at mafiascum consider that type of logic WIFOM and so therefor an autoscum argument, but you're simply wrong.

Now let's look at the target of his case; me.
If you reread, you can see that el simo was largely playing it safe until someone came under a considerable amount of early pressure. ICE started the pressure and sudenly el simo pops in with his canned case that is backed by a wiki! Wow, impressive! Perhaps the fact that wiki's are user written and are not always correct is just a myth! Anyway, el simo never really responds to anything I say other than the classic discrediting the source and then restarting that I sort of fit into his wiki. The main reason why you can tell that his play is fake is because so many other users have used arguements that would fit into this canned case, but he hasn't sprung it on them. He's just trying to keep the focus of the game on me and his out-of-the-game link and away from legitimate scumhunting.

Time to post some quotes. When reading these, ask yourself why we all aren't mafia.

I highly doubt one scum would shoot down an initial town read coming from a townie on their scumbuddy.

Firstly, scum don't intention buddy with their partner, mostly because it is a bad strategy but also because scum buddying is almost a natural reaction. You know who your partner is and so you take to him kindlier, you agree with him more to try have his opinion favoured hopefully manipulating the town to believe so as well, to try push false bandwagons, etc.

Yes they can, but really, do you expect scum to lead a BW on their own scum? I mean, from the VERY first vote on them? And that picked up FAST.

After a full readthrough I find the slaxx/Retro buddying to be too blatant to come from scumbuddies. If one of them flips scum the other is probably town tbh.

That's just a few, but this is getting too long.

Another thing to note; el simo has not once commented on any of my reads on other people. He is just concerned with me and keeping attention away from actual scumhunting. If all of you weren't unified with a towntell on him, it would be a toss up between Sweep and el simo for who gets my vote. -- 4-2

--------

Sweep:

This is way too long and I've already on over this in dept. Something to add to my other case everytime you've put pressure on anyone it's been at a safe distance and on someone who is either other pressure or is lurking. You're afraid to get your hands dirty. -- 2

--------

I just realized I forgot Jace. I feel pretty good about him too. I'll explain my read on him and the others tomorrow. (These big games are crazy!)

Reads:
DH: 8
TL: 7
Jace: 6-7 (explain later)
ICE: 6
Slaxx: 6
Eleran: 5-6 (explain later)
diddin: 5
iamnobody: 5
Benmage: 5
el simo: 4-2
Sweep: 2

--------

I have an 18 page paper due tomorrow for college and I'm only on page 5. I'm going to try to have enough will power not to read anymore of this thread or post today. Wish me luck. >.>
I've given you all I have time for today, good luck.

PS, I don't have time to proof read it, I"m sorry if its difficult to understand.

[Retrospective]

Wow, I have no life. Alright good luck guys.

Slaxx, I feel like I didn't put enough love into your section so ily man.

[Retrospective]

I shouldn't be posting becuase I should be working, but does anyone else think Sweep defense right there is incredibly weak? The funny thing about it is if you read the thread he took some of the stuff out of order to make it appear like I "OMG I THINK UR MAF CUZ U VOTE 4 ME LET ME FIND REASON 2 PROVE IT" when really it's pretty obvious I was suspecting him by the content of my posts prior to my vote. I also find it interesting that he tried to defend el simo, but never actually explain why el simo is town. Just that I am wrong.

Anyway, weak defense is weak and also recycled much like everything else he's said this game. Sweep, honestly, you're just making this easier on me.

[Retrospective]

For this next part, consider this as alignment neutral because I'm not trying to prove my case anywhere here, this is just a guy who signed up to play a mafia game talking to the others who did as well.

I play mafia to have fun. And to be completely honest, I'm considering dropping out because this shit isn't fun. I'm sure you guys are gonna use that last statement to twist your way into yet another bullshit argument saying I must want to quit because I'm scum, but at this point, I'm finding it hard to even care what you guys think of me anymore. And to be completely honest, the only reason stopping me from dropping out now is because it would be unfair to whoever takes my place because all of you have it ingrained into your minds that I'm scum. If I do decide to drop out, I'd appreciate it if you guys would give whoever takes my spot a chance. I'm going to give it another day, but I'm sorry to ICE and slaxx if I do leave.

--------

Back to the game.

What's so infuriating about this game is perhaps I didn't answer one argument quite up to standards, but I've caught an endless wave of grief for it. To make matters worse, players are latching on to this one thing and not even looking at the game around them. I told my exact train of thought in all of my defenses. And I feel that the players (town and mafia alike) are trying despertly hard to make me fit into perceived scumtells. It's getting to the point that I don't even think you guys are taking notice to my arguments.

Anyway, I'll try yet again.
Apparently I've been defending the wrong arguments with el simo. I'm going to try to right this wrong, but I've been defending and refuting exactly what I thought he has been arguing against me. So I went back to reread and try to figure out just what the hell you guys are talking about on my scummy/weak defenses and I still don't see how any of you could draw that conclusion. But I'll try my best to support my claims.

My first post on the defensive was #69. Normally I would make a joke about the number, but I'm really not in the mood.
[One thing I just noticed from rereading, Ell didn't like me saying ICE was town so soon. Improbable scumbuddies seeing as I doubt mafia would have a problem with town clearing their partner.]
I defended Sweep's case on Slaxx because I thought it was terribad. I know you guys don't want me to make playstyle arguements. But on EM games, the first minute or so it is usually just a chatroom where people mess around and crack little jokes with their friends. After that it usually starts getting serious. [At least for day starts]. This is consistent with my play with Slaxx as you should probably see. Anyway, his argument saying that Slaxx was hardcore buddying I felt was premature and simiply wrong. I explained it to the best of my ability. Perhaps my logic was wifom, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Saying that Slaxx was scum buddying me was wrong and I needed to get the point across. Moving on...
On my second day on this site, I was looking around at the mafia discussion and there was a topic that was centered around if you're town do you tell the truth even if it isn't the best argument. The general concenus was yes, and this is exactly what I did. I responded to ICE to the best of my ability. You may not like it, but I was fooling around and made an assumption, that was all that there was.

Next one was post #74.
There's nothing to improve upon here. I was correct in my arguments and I still stand by everything I said.
Same goes for #95, I explained my first hard townread here as well.

The rest was just meaningless bickering between us as to if my case was full of wifom and why you were positive wifom is scum's game. I still disagree with you. Anyway, I'm not exactly seeing how my defence was so weak. Perhaps I should've sat there and thought on how best to answer the scumslip argument. But I went with truthfulness.

I keep seeing the same words come up over and over against about why I'm so scummy, it's generally saying that I use wifom and that you guys feel my defense was weak. Perhaps it's because I wrote it and knew exactly what I meant, but I don't see how my defences could lead to a scumread. I honestly believe that mafia saw town pushing on someone and hopped on.

-------- (How did el simo do the horizontal rule? each time I do it just says "[hr][/hr]" in the preview.)

I'm going to address the responses to my post, and add a few things now.

@Jace; My townread on you is pretty simple. I feel that you are actually scumhunting. I feel this way because while you do not post that often, I agree or see logic in everything you've said. However, just because I feel like you are actively and legitimately hunting for scum doesn't mean I agree with all of your reads. I especially like that you followed my logic on Sweep as I am very certain he is mafia and I feel like people are overlooking my arguments simply because I'm under suspicion. I also like that you're questioning my townread on you. This is something that I would consider more of a townsided request. I understand that you don't like my reasons for my read on TL, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. Sure, it's harder to prove with my line of logic, but this early in the game I have to speculate when there isn't as much hard evidence.
I have a question for you as well.
From what I can tell, Sweep and I are your number one and two top suspects. Does this mean you think that Sweep and I have been bussing piratically from the beginning of the game? Or are they they two separate and unrelated reads? If Sweep flips mafia, how will this effect your read on me?

@ICE; I'm more secure with my townread on you for quite a few reasons. I really like that you said that your gut points to town for me because I feel like it absolutely should as you have seen me play before. I feel like I've played identically to how I always play town and is one of the reason why I am so frustrated. I just have some players here (el simo) who really likes to tunnel. Also upon rereading I picked on someone that I find very unlikely to be your partner. If Elleran gets lynched today and flips mafia, it would almost clear you in my head. You said that your vote remains on me because you think that logic toward me points to mafia. Could you be more specific or is this just the classic argument that everyone is mimicking about the scumslip refutation? And do you honestly think there is more pointing to me for being scum than someone like Sweep? -- 8

@ el simo, my first section of this post is dedicated to you and your arguments on me. The reason why I still think your case is canned is because it is unbelievable generic and I feel that it could fit many other users than me. Now that I stopped really caring if people think I'm scum, I started thinking more clearly. I think I got a better understanding on your case on me. I still think you are mafia sided, but I'd move my number to a solid four as I'm pretty unsure. I still think that for someone who thinks he as good as you think you are would find a much more incriminating case and against someone who was actually mafia if you were indeed town. Also from what I can tell you fos four people; me, slaxx, diddin and elle. However, I don't understand your case against slaxx and I feel that you're more of just following everyone else with elle. You also said something that really bothered me.

Diddin, what stood out to me more than his lurking and parroting was that quote I posted above. If he flips scum I am definitely going to place an irremovable vote on Retro.

For someone who has been all about the correct type of logic, this strikes me as extremely hypocritical. Under no circumstance should your vote be irremovable. Especially if you think you've found a scum team this early as you've previously stated that this would be a scum team is slaxx/diddin/me. After thinking about this for a bit, I could easily see mafia saying this, then busing their partner to build up their town cred. Then use the bus and your new town cred to lynch a town member. This is actually my biggest worry about your right now because I feel that it is pretty consistent with your play because almost none of your case against any specific player have been strong. -- 4

@diddin; I'm glad that your stance on me has changed and I feel that you are voting correctly. I had a null read on you until el simo's latest post. I can see this as a setup for a bus. Also I find it strange that your stance changed in favor of me after el simo made this accusation. As if you are trying to make a team between us a bit more obvious. Keep in mind this is not a strong read and I will never vote unless I"m sure. This is no where near enough for me to justify a vote. In response to your post regarding my delay to put down a vote, This is a habit I've picked up from EM because votes there mean much more. If you're being voted, it's likely going to stay that way and there is a very slim chance you will be able to get out of a lynch. There is also no such thing as 'placement votes' as there are here. -- 5-4

@DH; your first post in this thread was very good and insightful, but since then all I've seen from you has been largely fluff. How are you feeling about the new material and where do your reads currently stand? (I'm talking more on townreads because you've already stated a lot of your scumreads) -- 7

@TL; While I think you're town, your play has been pretty terrible. If you are as certain as you seem to be with ICE/slaxx being mafia, you should be able to find more material that isn't solely based on RVS. Until you find a reason why these targets are scummy that hasn't been based on the part of the game that has RANDOM in it's name, I'm going to have trouble taking your arguments seriously. -- 7

@Elle; I'm trying to remember why I felt she was more town than my other null reads. I think it had to with her early game arguments over the functions of RVS. She is moving more and more mafia aligned for several reasons. First, simo seems comfortable with saying that he thinks she is mafia, but not with voting. This has been noted and if one of the pop up as mafia, I think town should pay a lot of attention to this. There is a very noticeable difference between the bandwagon on Elle and then bandwagon on me. This has also been noted. -- 4

@Benmage; His play is leaning town. I like when he argued with simo's logic on me even though (i think) he previously stated that he finds me scummy. This seems like he's actually trying to take part in the town scumhunting. -- 6

@Sweep; So far you have been and still are my strongest scumread. You seem to not understand the concept of recycled arguments. Going through the game and finding quotes that support arguments that other players have made is not bringing new material to the table. "I haven't been using recycled arguments, see look I put quotes in this post. See new material!" You cannot answer a mimicking accusation with saying you added more material to your latest post after the accusation had already been made. I especially like the part that you miscred me by saying my case on you is a OMGUS. It was blattently obvious that I had real reasons for voting you, and I've given these reasons thoroughout this game. I read this as you grasping at straws. I'm looking forward to this "wider view" that is coming tonight. -- 2

@Slaxx: I am starting to agree with his reads more and more which is usually something that happens when we are both town aligned. I also noticed where it was really important for el simo to falsely accuse Slaxx of using EtA. (Discrediting town again) For el simo to be discrediting town, Slaxx has to be town. -- 7

[Retrospective]

@el simo; I'll try to use WIFOM less but it takes a huge role in my scumhunting because I consider what mafia would most likely not do. I know that there is some element of uncertainty here, but I don't build my reads solely on this. I use these types of arguments as a base and when more content that I can use is released, I wrap it up in a nice little bow. I appreciate you unvoting me, but I still have a scumread on you. However, I feel like we've been beating a dead horse and I'm going to try to focus more on the other players.

@Jace; I asked because the phrasing in one of your lastest posts gave the impression that you fos'd us as buddies, and I wanted clarification. I understand that my read on TL is based on a lot of things that are specific to only me. However, at least you know I have reasoning and I'm not just randomly throwing out townreads.

@Sweep; thanks for the hr tip. Nothing much to refute here. I see you just elaborating on topics often long after people have been discussing them. I still think you're making recycled arguments but we will see what happens in your upcoming post. I'll will post a evaluation on your upcoming post.

@Iamnobody; We need much more content from you. I have absolutely no read on you and it bothers me.

@Elleran; Sorry for calling you a girl. D: Why did you write your whole case about Slaxx and then vote someone else?

[Retrospective]

@Mod; Typo on Slaxx, should read two votes. You also have Elleran listed twice. (Once under Slaxx and once under me.) And both el simo and iamnoob are not voting.

Mod ~ Should all be fixed now.

[Retrospective]

I agree with Elleran on one point. Wall of Texts are a pain sometimes. It's hard to keep track of what is going on.

As for how I'm leaning. I'm reading Retro as Town, but Slaxx I'm not as sure about. I'm leaning towards Scum with him though.

Why?

[Retrospective]

Hmm the scumteam that DH and Slaxx outlined is interesting. I'm much less sure on iamnobody just because he's of the lack of context.

@Elleran, What is your read on Sweep? I haven't seen you address or analyze his play at all. I mentioned something earlier about mafia often not adressing each other. This fits nicely here. I'm gonna go ISO both of them and see if they've ever directly responded to each other.

Can you explain what you see between the three of us that you mentioned? I don't see how I'm connected to Sweep and Iamnobody at all. The only time I mentioned Sweep was in my RVS vote and Iamnobody is nowhere to be seen in my posts.

This pretty much confirms what I'm talking about. Elleran is even commenting that there has been no connection between Sweep and himself. Very possible that it is mafia avoiding each other. [Not sure how to tie this in, but I noticed when Elleran was lurking a bit, he aplogized to Sweep, not town]

[Retrospective]

Gahh, Slaxx ninja'd me on the mafia avoiding each other bit. D:

[Retrospective]

Here goes a triple post. -- Don't hate me D:

I just clt-f'd Elleran's name in Sweep's ISO. The name came up twice. Elleran was Sweep's random vote and the only other time he addressed him after that was to say "Elleran: Neutral, need more."

[Retrospective]

This is going to be a pretty quick post as I have a huge math test tomorrow and I've sort of procrastinated on studying for it. >.>

Anyway, I'm happy that you guys are starting to see that I'm town. It's interesting that Sweep still does not though. For someone who has consistently agreeing/following with all of el simo's arguments, he sure isn't following a big one. I think this is because he is scum latching on someone who was under a lot of pressure. When he hopped on the bandwagon, it was safe to follow because town (ICE at the very least) was leading on town. However, now that the suspicion is waning he's still bent on repeating old arguments. Sweep's last post was essentially "All that stuff el simo said that was scummy about you sure is scummy." And he added a bit about saying he's been voting me since the beginning of the game as if that improves the credibility of his recycled and old case. Seriously, he hasn't mentioned one thing that el simo hasn't said. Nor has he used anything to say that I've scum other than "my weak defense" and "omgwifom".

All of my previous arguements on Sweep still stand and I don't even feel like he's even refuted or defended these accusations properly. For the most part he's just faught fire with (recycled) fire.

To my case with Elleran and Sweep disregarding each other: Sweep has still yet to provide his stance on Elleran even though this is a big/recent topic right now. This is interesting because it's very obvious he is reading the thread as he is using current quotes for his (terrible) case on Slaxx. Something you should all note is that Sweep has not used any of Slaxx's quotes for anything that has to do with Elleran, only TL. Is there a particular reason why he is avoiding all things to do with Elleran?

@el simo; I disagree. I think that Elleran is much more likely to be scum between the two of them. You've said that Elleran has improved his play. Could you elaborate?

Something that has really bothered me is that Elleran made a whole post refuting Slaxx and saying that Slaxx was scummy, but then voted diddin out of the blue without giving more than a line to explain himself. It's making me wonder if there was a specific reason why Elleran didn't vote Slaxx. This is really the only thing holding me back from saying that Slaxx is outright town.

Depending on how I feel on this test, I may post again tonight in ~2 hours. If not, see you tomorrow!

[Retrospective]

*Here's me procrastinating*

At this point, I'm willing to vote Elleran or Sweep. I also touched on a couple of the arguments you just made in recent posts.

@ICE; could you look into Sweep as in dept as you did Elleran? Also what is your opinion of him after my last post?

@el simo; after ICE's post, do you still think diddin is more likley to be scum between the two of them? Also it bothers me that you would vote without truly looking into a player further than just post count.

Also after reading ICE's post, I just realized something. In my last post, I expressed a worry about Elleran making a case about Slaxx but voting someone else possibly trying to avoid voting mafia partner. However, Elleran's post talking about Slaxx being too confident no matter which way Elleran flips is not something I would expect to come from mafia who is getting bussed. This dissolves my worry Slaxx bussing Elleran. (<-- Is that still fallacious? -.-)

[Retrospective]

@ICE; In your last post you mentioned that Elleran referred to me a lot. (This didn't go in my last post because I wanted to ISO Elleran to see what you were talking about) You kind of misrepresented the situation. As far as I can see it, the only time he mentioned me was in relation to el simo. And what he said was that he thought EL SIMO was town but tunneling a bit on me. And at that time of the game, there was little else to post on as el simo and I were doing most of the posting. He also mentioned several other players in that same post. You say that he hasn't given his read on me since. However seeing as he hasn't given his read on most of the people playing in this game as well, I'm failing to see how this is strange.

[Retrospective]

I had voted for Slaxx because of his angry responses. It was a real reason that I have evidence for. (just check Slaxx's posts recently prior to my vote on him)

How does having angry responses equate to scum?

You know, actually reading Ell's posts instead of counting them might give you a better idea of where you stand on him.

lol'd and very much agree. I'm starting to wonder if there is a reason why el simo is ignoring Elleran's scumtells.

Retro, I've investigated your case on Sweep and Sweep himself, and I find merit in the case. However, I'd say Elleran is a lot scummier than Sweep at the moment. I'd put him roughly in the same neighborhood of diddin on the scumometer.

I disagree here for two reasons. 1. I think Sweep's play is the same/more scummy than Elleran. 2. I'm not seeing this scum read on diddin. The way I see it either Elleran OR diddin is scum, not both. And as far as that goes, Elleran takes the gold by a long shot.

Preview edit: I especially don't want to change my vote now because I'm not sure how close to the lynch we are.

[Retrospective]

I'm thinking about switching my vote to Elleran because Elleran's flip will tell us the most. If Elleran flips scum I'd pretty much clear Slaxx and diddin. And it would strengthen my fos on el simo and sweep.

[Retrospective]

I'm not going to put my vote on Elleran until he makes another appearance.

el simo; I'm gonna summarize your last post.
First two setnences: You guys are so wrong
First big paragraph: ICE is sorta right but Ell isn't mafia and you guys are all wrong
Second big paragraph: Ell is mafia but everyone is still wrong

At this point, I'm pretty sure Elleran is a mafia power role. I feel like you're giving up on defending Elleran, but trying to save yourself with defending your old case.

[Retrospective]

After I first read Elleran's post, I was getting ready to say, "Okay, I agree with you. You're the best lynch" and turn it into L-1. The whole post initially struck me as mafia trying to make a last appeal to town. The whole, "I will give myself up for the good of town" appeal. I've seen mafia do it tons of times. I actually went back up to quote the post and something caught my eye.

It bothers me that Elleran didn't claim a pr. I would expect mafia in this situation to do so. Especially because their is a pretty good likleyhood he could come up with something that wouldn't be cc'd. At the very least, it gives mafia a productive NK. I could see mafia doing this appeal to town later in the game when other options are exhausted but...

Meh, this doesn't warrant a change in votes, but I would like to know everyone who is currently voting Elleran's opinion of it.

I'm fixing to just label it null tell because it could have been a continuation of the last appeal to town, but eh. I dunno. In any case, I'm not ready to vote Elleran until I hear from the rest of town.

[Retrospective]

Anyways, it looks like the day is winding down. I like sweep as a lynch candidate. I've seen scum hold on desperately to what seemed like a sure lynch (in the case retro) and I think that's what's happening here. I would also accept diddin or ell.

Does this mean you think I'm town now?

------

Where did TL go?

[Retrospective]

Retro, what is "PR"?

Power role, sorry. (Like cop, tracker/roleblocker/doc)

@Jase
You say that "hanging onto a sure lynch" like I don't believe that Retro is scum, the opposite is true, I still think Retro is scum.

And this is why you're either an idiot or mafia. Because if you payed any attention to this game, it should be pretty obvious I'm not. You're holding on for dear life and your arguments don't even have substance.

[Retrospective]

Retro needs to turn down the OMGUS bias. By that I mean you have a consistent habit of finding everyone who suspects you as scummy. I have a strong feeling that should Sweep have made a similar move against a player that wasn't you, you wouldn't be quite so adamant about his lynch.

While this may be true, it doesn't mean the points against him are false. Just because someone is voting me doesn't mean I go pull stuff out of my ass about them. I want to win this game too, I'm not gonna lynch anyone who fos's me. I lynch who I think is mafia. I take a closer look at those putting pressure on me earlier in the game because they have my focus. I'm not voting Sweep because he's voting me. I'm voting scum and he's voting me because he's mafia that's out of other options. Given the circumstances of this game, it's not much of a surprise that he is continuing to push on me. He hopped on when I was popular. Now the bandwagon has died down, but Sweep devoted too much parroting to me. The only reason why he hasn't gotten off me is because he knows that people will find it even more suspicious if he suddenly drops his baseless cases. The only thing that he has going for him right now, is he is consistent. He uses the same words and phrases in each post that are somehow condemning to me.

[Retrospective]

I am not sure what to think about this. Surely even if a player does not follow the strategy you would expect from Scum, it does not change your stance on them. Scum can do whatever they want.

Did I say anything about getting people off Elleran? No. I even said we shouldn't. I noticed and wanted everyone's opinion. Good luck trying to twist this into a scumtell though.

Also your incessant mentioning of me "parroting" is not a reason to discredit me. (and not a reason why I am scummy because I am not parroting). You are so angry because someone suspects you and you think that being angry will help clear your name.

This is why I think you're dumb. I made two very large posts as to why you are mafia that have nothing to do with you consistent recycling of old arguments. Your style of defense and attempt to put suspicion back on me is just icing on top of the cake. Perhaps you should reread, because you're obviously confused.

[Retrospective]

Not done reading your post but

I mentioned this because DH mentioned that we may have been scums together. I was just addressing something that I noticed.

When was this?

[Retrospective]

@ICE; On a scale from one to ten, how sure of you that Elleran is scum?

We need more content from TL, el simo, DH, diddin and slaxx

[Retrospective]

Also, please respond to my first quote too (if it is not too "dumb" to answer).

It was. If you want to bring something new to the table go ahead. But I'm tired of running in circles with you. Find something new or you're not gonna get another response from me.

[Retrospective]

How lovely. Note that I never said it was a pressure vote. I even called him out as being scummy. He still isn't giving us much so my vote is still on him and Ell has defended himself sufficiently from the strongest thing we had on him which was the double standards. I'm not lynching someone because they regretted a stupid vote and they said someone was a good candidate for a scum lynch.

Hmm...

Now here is someone that's gone by largely unnoticed. You are about just as guilty as Ell when it comes to active lurking, your saving grace is that your content has been better, but it is still minimal.

unvote:
vote: Jase

Until I can make up my mind about diddin and Ell.

Seems like a pressure vote to me. As the only reason why you're voting him is because you want content.

Next!

I will vote Ell if I think the case on him is solid, until I come to a conclusion about him, you're not getting nada from me and I'd rather vote Jase to get him posting more.

Hmm...

I'll hammer when the time comes, but until I'd rather keep my vote on Jase. He needs to post more.

And again:

Sure do but I only got one vote, so until the hammer, it's staying on Jase.

You're right! How did we ever come to the conclusion that it was a pressure vote?! It's not like you stated that you were only voting him for content more than six times or anything. Silly us! What ever were we thinking?

--------

I agree that el simo is absolutely scummy. However, I am feeling a lot less comfortable with Elleran lynch. (Hense, why I asked ICE to tell me how sure he was) Which is the main reason why we're on at L-1 right now.

Yes! The wiki returns! Also, just because you're not changing you're vote doesn't mean you're not being wishy washy. You're doing the exact same thing as described in the wiki but with yours words rather than your votes. Ben didn't misrep anything. I feel like I should iso how many times you've said that his game.

--------

Anyway, I still want to lynch Sweep. But el simo is still a close second. Followed by Elleran or DH. DH has moved down on my towntells because he is really not providing that much. I understand that he's confindent in his lynch. But meh, I feel like he's going through the motions more than actually providing usual information.

[Retrospective]

Before Ben unvoted, we were at L-2. This is because I had not changed my vote to Elleran because I was unsure. What is confusing about that?

[Retrospective]

And what logic? I quoted some of your posts where you very clearly stated you were voting him so he'd post. There's absolutely no debatable logic about that. You lied and now you're trying to push a reason into your old vote to justify yourself.

[Retrospective]

Nope.

How in god's name is it not a pressure vote.

HI GUYS IM VOTING PLAYER A SO HE WILL TALK MORE BUT THIS ISN'T A PRESSURE VOTE I JUST WANT TO MAKE HIM FEEL UNEASY SO HE WILL VOTE AGAIN THIS IS NOT A PRESSURE VOTE BECAUSE I DIDNT USE THE WORD PRESSURE I USED OTHER WORDS SO NO IM NOT SCUMMY TY

[Retrospective]

Sweep I had an answer t your question but I realized

i caught me with my own logic. So instead of arguing a losing battle I'll admit the pressure aspect of must vote. How ever, unlike Ben implies, the pressure was not the reason for my vote and was only a by product of my suspicion.This is why I claim it isn't a pressure vote.

There is not much else I can argue.

I can argue technicalities with you all day (such as the incorrect use of the term wishy washy) but at the end of the day I was non committal.

I bolded for emphasis.

In my last game I saw ICE doing something similar to this when he was mafia. What you're doing is confessing to scumtells that other people have called but trying to shine them in a different light. I'm going to post the quote where I explained it because it applies here as well.

Because I know it annoys you guys at mafiscum, I try to keep my EM references to a minimum. I know its a different meta and all, but there are some similarities, after all its the same basic game. There's a tell that me and my friends coined (Hira might have heard me use it a couple times before) called the Self-Incrimination tell. Essentially what this is when mafia agrees with the argument made against them and then saying why it doesn't fit this particular game. Something along the lines of "Yeah, that was scummy but _____" or "Normally I would agree with you, however in this game it is actually ______". When I play EM, whenever I see sentences phrased like that I almost always vote the person that said it.

This is exactly what you did in the first two paragraphs of your latest post. You're cornered by some scumtells and you don't have a way to argue your way out of them anymore. So you switch tactics and agree with BOTH of them. Go reread his quotes and look at the bolded parts.

I unvoted Retro to focus my attention else where, my views have not changed about him and he is still my favourite lynch today.

Hmm...
I cannot see a town motivation to stop putting pressure on someone that you think is the most scummy. If I am truly your favorite lynch, I should be your vote. You've said time and time again that Jace is just a weak vote and that you'll unvote him if he starts being more active. What could town gain from voting a weak suspicion over his strongest? Anyway I look at this, I just see mafia testing the waters and seeing if they can get an easy lynch.

No, it is a vote that is based of my suspicion of his, "I'm going to post only just enough to not get replaced" activity level. I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it. The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

Now I found this extremely interesting. You specifically named two people and then said "rest of town." This is a variation of the Self-Incrimination tell I mentioned earlier. Sometimes mafia will see arguments that town are making and can't help but agree with them because they are right. And because they are speaking truths, mafia feels obligated to clear them. However, this shakes up my view Sweep. :/

Sweeps right at about a four now.

Unvote; Vote: el simo

[Retrospective]

I'm amazed at how little of that case you actually refuted. Most of your responses are basically "OMG NO"

I'm actually very comfortable with my vote. Let's get rid of that signature.

@Mod: You forgot to add me those voting el simo.

Mod ~ Fixed.

[Retrospective]

I also urge you, Retro, and the rest of the town, to seriously look at ICE before placing a vote on me. That many blatant lies in an accusation is inexcusable. I look forward to hearing his defence because I struggle to see how someone is going to defend themselves after being caught like that. I honestly don't see the town would want to lynch anyone else today, not after that post.

lol'd. This wasn't manufactured at all.

[Retrospective]

Yay for triple post.

Your whole case against ICE is that he said you voted when you did not. Instead you said you would vote which is basically the same thing except a safer move for you because you didn't have to commit. This huge lie that you're manufacturing is bullshit. For a veteran, you sure suck at making good cases.

[Retrospective]

Why is ice scummy for making the case? It looks like only a dressed up OMGUS to me.

Because he lied repeatedly?

lol did you just ignore his last post?

He very obviously wasn't making stuff up.

[Retrospective]

Why not? He's already voting you. You're just trying to make sure he doesn't commit to voting you.

[Retrospective]

Welcome Smitster! I'm new too, this is just my second game :D

Voting no one day one is damaging to town because instead of us collectively deciding to vote who is the most scummy and kill them. Mafia gets to target the strongest players and leave us with the scummy ones. Not using the miss lynch today will also lead us to another day where we'd be forced to vote no one again, giving mafia an extra kill. A thing to note is if mafia kills someone, they're 100% town. If we lynch someone, there's usually a good chance they're mafia because people don't place their votes for no reason.

Immediate feeling on Smitster: Town. That whole thing with asking how often mafia get's lynched and saying that it's unlikely we'll get enough support on who we want to lynch just strikes me as town. This could change with ore content but is unlikely to.

Also, what does IC stand for? Form context I guess it's someone who is helping to teach a new player?

[Retrospective]

Also, I"m kinda annoyed that ICE wont let the 3 mafia thing go. You're gonna have your foot in your mouth when this game ends. >_>

[Retrospective]

I'm new and I shouldn't have known that? I've played Mafia forever. Enough to asume that a setup should be balanced anyway

[Retrospective]

This is ridiculous, you can't just ignore stuff which has happened in the past.

It's okay. I wouldn't expect you to think rationally. GG, keep voting on this alone.

About El Simo, to me his "pressure" is not pressure at all and am not sure why no-one picked up on this earlier. Maybe because his aura is "too town". I think a re-read of his play is in order.

Wow. More recycled backwash! I read this as you being agreeable to town. This way you don't make a splash and if el simo is indeed scum, you said you agree! Good mafia play.

Elleran does make some excuses and apologies over his play indicating nerves over possible slips. (school, hamlet) but I don't have time now for a full analysis as I have been promising. Will 100% do it tomorrow.

This is you agree'ing with towns suspects. Wow you're three for three, you're such a great townie! Also your reason is pretty bad considering others have done this much worse. Elleran is scummy, yes, but for different reasons.
If anyone is guilty of apologizing over their play it's diddin. I was glancing through the thread today and noticed that he kept apologizing for how he was playing on multiple posts. Mostly he was referring to walls of text, but apologizing just the same. The weird thing is that I don't see anyone directing post criticism at him. He just felt the need to defend his posts...

[Retrospective]

I already have a stance on you. I just think that more responses between you and Benmage will help shape out my stance a little. Plus an Elleran flip would help, hint hint.

Then say it. Withholding information doesn't help us and puts you in a scummy light.

[Retrospective]

The problem I"m seeing right now is if we vote Elleran and he flips town, I feel like everyone will autoclear el simo. I can remember countless times I went full out against a lynch on a townie to appear like I wasn't mafia. What's to prevent el simo from have doing the same? You guys talk about wifom like it's taboo, except this is a very real legitimate concern. No matter which way Elleran flips, I think el simo is mafia and needs to be lynched.

At this point, I will be more than happy with either a Sweep lynch or a el simo. I feel like Elleran's flip will tell us much less than everyone is giving credit for. It's not like mafia plays by the book and will always support a town lynch.

Also it annoys me to no end how much el simo tries to discredit everyone. He makes gross exaggerations to the ineffectiveness of all cases against him, however if you ignore his post and actually read the case they all have substance to them. Look through the game, he's done this countless times.

I think Slaxx, DH and diddin should consider lynching someone else for today. I'm not saying Elleran isn't scummy but the majority of the reason why I fos'd him is because I could see him being Sweep and el simo's partner. I also feel like that at the point the Elleran lynch is at, any player can easily just say "I want to see the flip" and seem town enough. For this reason, Elleran's lynch is even less revealing.

[Retrospective]

You either going to believe that it is scummy or you are going to believe that I took my actions for the reasons I stated when I made them.

Funny. I said almost that word for word in my "poor defense" that you voted me for.

I'll dig up the quote if you guys don't believe me.

[Retrospective]

@el simo; Cool. You think I'm scummy for the WAY I typed it. You didn't even address what I said. This is another example of you discrediting cases instead of actually refuting them. This would be the point where you tell everyone that I am blatantly lying seven times and vote me.

[Retrospective]

Elleran's posting gets worse...He literally ignores most of the accusations brought against him, clams up, and hardly has progressed the game forward. Yet other people are unvoting him for other wagon targets that aren't being nearly as scummy. All I ask of Elleran is a case on someone and he can't even provide that. He just kind of prods Diddin. He is afraid to take any stance. This is not a hard lynch.

Meh, when you say it like that, I agree and think "MUST LYNCH NOW". But this is about the only thing I agree with el simo on this game, I think that Elleran's responses weren't great, but they never screamed mafia to me... I just see someone who isn't providing much. Granted, what I see doesn't indicate alignment at all. My very slight scumread on Elleran is mostly just a lack of towntells.

Meh, if a el simo/sweep lynch doesn't get steam, I guess I'll vote Elleran.

[Retrospective]

Hi guys, brick wall here :3

[Retrospective]

Oh. Care to elaborate a bit more? I don't see anything similar about myself and Retro.

I'm town.

Mod ~ Quote tags fixed.

[Retrospective]

I said I would vote Elleran if I'm not gonna let town no lynch if they need my vote. I'm still strongly in favor of voting el simo or Sweep. I said what I felt which is I"m not getting a huge scum read on Elleran.

[Retrospective]

good fight diddin. Except I already said I have no problem voting Elleran. He's just my third suspect rather than the first or second. Also I did a ton of scumhunting about Elleran when the wagon was picking up speed. You should probably reread.

[Retrospective]

I feel like el simo's whole defense/attack at ICE is 'OMG U LIED' and 'OMG NO U'

[Retrospective]

You're completely ignoring every point that has any substance and just posting everything that you can twist into saying you disagree on.

[Retrospective]

I'm not gonna sit here and restate ICE's case.

You didn't vote, good job. Still doesn't mean all of his points are invalid. I was just stating what I noticed.

So who are ICE's partners?

[Retrospective]

My suspicions haven't moved much this game, but I'll restate them for your sake, ICE.

el simo and sweep.

el simo because of a ton of little things. He's obviously not bad at this game. So why are all of his arguments/tells so unfounded? He is currently sure the two people I see as the most town are mafia. I stated very early in this game that el simo continuously discredits whoever he's debating and rather talk about theory rather than actual things going on in this game. (The canned case where he brings the discussion outside of the game rather than discussing the game) Now that it's directed at you, ICE, you should be noticing this. All he cares about right now is that you said he voted when he didn't. This is a perfect method to disregard your whole case and focus on the one fault in it, even if the case still stands now that the fault has been corrected he still hasn't let it go. I don't find him getting off Elleran's wagon as scummy though because I had the same thought process. However I think his reasoning for

not

joining the Elleran wagon was extremley telling. el simo devoted a whole post to why Elleran was scummy and how he would hammer her, but then said "I'm going to vote this guy now". Keep in mind that this happened BEFORE Elleran made the actual post defending himself. Jace wouldn't win a most post reward, but he has been more active than TL, diddin, Elleran and iamnobody and sweep. And Jace's content per post has been more rich than most players here. (He reminds me a lot of this player named Seol.) It seems like el simo pulled the Jace supicion out of his ass and stuck to in until someone caught on. I think this is because he saw Jace as an easy target because his post number wasn't all that high. simo then switched his vote to the person who caught on first; ICE. When I look through el simo's play, I don't see much scumhunting. I'd say 9/10 posts he's provided this game have been centered at discrediting someone rather or focusing on one minor detail that doesn't really pertain to the game rather than actual scumhunting. When he flips scum, everyone he's discreditted is going to loook much more town in my eyes.

Sweep. Well Sweep seems to only be capable of focusing on one thing at a time. To say he is tunneling is an understatement and I think that if he were town he'd care a bit more about what is going on around him. All he seems to do is quote me and say that what I'm saying is bullshit. Everytime he provides anything about any other player it's basically whatever the loudest person said on the matter. Another thing I've noticed is that Sweep has joined every bandwagon extremely late as if seeing if it would be safe. However, his reasoning behind why he is following is almost always outdated and word for word the reason why the other people joined the bandwagon. If he saw these reasons way back when they happened, why did he wait to talk about them? Why did he post 2-3 posts discrediting me before posting the old information about the other players? It makes absolutely no sense. Town wouldn't do this. My first suspicion grew on him when he implied beyond a doubt that ICE was town on like the second day. He didn't provide any case to support it it was just a matter of fact. In my opinion, he slipped. He knows that ICE isn't mafia and let that idea shine too brightly in his post. There was no way he could've been as sure as he was that ICE was town especially when ICE had put pressure on him at the same time. People were actually voting ICE at the time that sweep made the absolute statement.

The interactions between el simo and Sweep have also been interesting. Sweep is one of the few players this game that el simo hasn't discredited or even looked at. Every time Sweep posts it's as if he's a broken record, but el simo acts like he's posting the word of god and hasn't questioned it at all.

The reason why I am willing to lynch Elleran today is simply because of the interaction, or lack of interaction between Elleran and Sweep. It's also intriguing how el simo tryed to switch and bw to someone who was inactive prior to Elleran's defence while all the while saying "I'll hammer Elleran."

I still think the most likley scum team is el simo/sweep/elleran. And I fos them in that order.


Preview edit: Slaxx :/ I thought you said I was playing as I always play as town? I'm your fourth suspect? What ever happened to you agreeing with an Elleran/Sweep team? How the hell is Sweep just a neutral read?

[Retrospective]

Ummm... Smitster I think you've misunderstood me. Slaxx isn't anywhere close to my top three fos's >.<

And your last post just has me confused.

[Retrospective]

he is just trying to discredit and argue theory blah blah unfounded all he is doing is saying I'm wrong blah blah

[Retrospective]

I don't know Retro, do you hate me that much?

Yeah.

[Retrospective]

On a more serious note:

el simo; post 307 is where you start talking about Elleran vs Diddin for scum. Post 325 is where you where you say "idk about elleran so ima vote jace 'cause his post number is low" [Please note this is also the part of the game where you weren't even reading Elleran's posts and you just looked at post count.] Elleran defends on 377. You voted Jace 52 posts before Elleran even attempted to defend himself. Saying I made up these numbers is ridiculousness. You were extemlely hypocritical especially because you were voting for lurking. You stopped pressureing Elleran the second he posted even though he said next to nothing of value, however when Jace posts you're still confident he's scum. Yeah, you're right! I'm not sure where anyone is getting this double standard argument from. And I just realized this now but between diddin and elleran you voted diddin. Once Elleran was getting a huge amount of heat and people stopped learning on diddin, you picked Jace out of nowhere. Everytime you were at a cross road between Elleran and another player, you always picked the latter.

Can someone tell me how Sweep is so goddamn town? I really cannot fathom why you're not all up in arms with me. Take a minute and ISO him. I'm tired of hearing neutral. Freaking analyze his play. If you think he's town, prove it. Otherwise vote Sweep.

Time to make an example out of this.
Now that I've talked about el simo and and sweep being scum. I'm gonna vote hmmm....DH1

Unvote; Vote: DH

This is perfectly justified!

[Retrospective]

Guys, I know there are scumtells flying but until someone gets to L-1 and I will hammer, have no fear. But until then I'm gonna pressure DH. DH, how are you going to respond to this pressure vote that I'm pressuring you with because its a pressure vote?

[Retrospective]

btw guys this isn't a pressure vote

[Retrospective]

Guys, I know there are scumtells flying but until someone gets to L-1 and I will hammer, have no fear. But until then I'm gonna pressure DH. DH, how are you going to respond to this pressure vote that I'm pressuring you with because its a pressure vote?

With a witty response that's totally solid and logical with absolutely no scumtells whatsoever, no siree, not one bit. The most townish reply ever.

Obvious scum is obvious.

[Retrospective]

:< I'm mad that everyone reacted to Slaxx's paradoy but didn't react to mine :<

Anyway.

Unvote; Vote: el simo

[Retrospective]

I just ISO'd Sweep and I'm leaning toward town. His last post seemed to try to get the town away from theory arguments and get players back into the game. Although it was a short post, it gave me a strong town read; short and sweet. However, before the last post, I had a weak scum read on Sweep due to his seemingly contentless posts.

Um... You changed your read because he said that town should talk less about theory? Does this strike anyone else as unbelievably weak?

[Retrospective]

OH MY GOD SMIT DID SOMETHING GOOD <333 NOW, IF MORE PEOPLE BESIDES SMIT SUPPORT A LYNCH ON ICE, CAN WE DO IT NOW

You seem desperate to lynch me, and yet there is significantly more steam on your second suspect. You wouldn't happen to be trying to keep a scum buddy alive, would you?

Now TL is scum too?

More later, on hone right now

[Retrospective]

OH MY GOD SMIT DID SOMETHING GOOD <333 NOW, IF MORE PEOPLE BESIDES SMIT SUPPORT A LYNCH ON ICE, CAN WE DO IT NOW

You seem desperate to lynch me, and yet there is significantly more steam on your second suspect. You wouldn't happen to be trying to keep a scum buddy alive, would you?

Now TL is scum too?

More later, on phone* right now

Okay to continue what I was saying on my cell:

ICE, for the most part I agree with your suspicions. You've recently stated that you suspect a Elleran/el simo/Smit team. I agree except I would replace Smit with Sweep. I also think that you've been fairly town throughout this whole game HOWEVER your last post was unbelievably scummy. TL has been after you the whole game. Since the RVS where you went after Sweep. Him switching his vote is not something that should surprise you. To make matters worse, he was just voting your current vote. Is everyone who votes you automatically Elleran's partner? I feel like you jumped to a pretty big conclusion off of just one more vote on you. :/.

Gonna reread what I read on my phone and make a post on el simo soon.

[Retrospective]

I think it's interesting how much el simo is buddying benmage. ICE and I are absolutely wrong AND scum and complete morons for thinking he is mafia. However, he refers to Benmage an a very different way. I brought up the self-incrimiation tell earlier and simo is admitting to EVERYTHING ben has thrown at him, and just reflecting with saying "But really it's this..." The reasons why this is so hypocritical is because we're essentially saying the same thing.

[Retrospective]

Now I'm stuck in a shit position, because I defended Ell from a crap case against him, when some valid points are raised that I agree with people are just going use that to make me look scummy.

It was scummy. Are you confident in an Elleran lynch all of a sudden? From this post one would conclude you expect Elleran to flip scum.

[Retrospective]

I"m at a friend's house doing an overnight starcraft II lanparty :3

Anyway, if I can't have an el simo/sweep lynch, I'll settle for Elleran.

Unvote; Vote: Elleran

Let's see the reactions.

Also my case against DH still stands. obvious mafia is obvious.

[Retrospective]

Going to a play. Expect a post last tonight or tomorrow morning.

Oh and this is a bit more of an out of character thing than I usually comment on, but:
simo, why do make the mistake that Elleran is female? I mean I'd understand if he had that name and an avatar of a female anime character or something, but women don't play starcraft. It is a scientifically proven fact.

I've done this same thing. I'm not sure why, but Elleran sounds a bit feminine to me and whenever I talk about him I find myself writing 'her' and 'she'. I've had to go back and change them after rereading my previews too.

[Retrospective]

Alright guys this day is definitely winding down. We have 30 pages for day 1, which is more than a lot of newbie games (and even some mini games) run for in their entirety.

Elleran's lynch is the only one that I really see happening for day 1. It is the only one that has enough momentum to go through, unless someone brings up a really good point that we've all missed.

If anyone has some really good evidence why we should lynch someone other than Elleran, then bring it forward. Otherwise, I think it is time to force a claim then hammer.

I agree and he already claimed VT

[Retrospective]

Going to a play. Expect a post late* tonight or tomorrow morning.

Sooo, I have no clue what I was planning to say. >_> Nothing much is happening now.

btw, the play sucked.

[Retrospective]

lol Elleran is voting me now? xDDD

[Retrospective]

@Mod; Unless I missed something, Elleran isn't voting me
Also, I am voting Elleran not simo

[Retrospective]

What's our VC?

[Retrospective]

So it's twilight?

[Retrospective]

Dang...I was trying to speed read the few pgs I was behind in. Oh wells. If I missed anything major, let me know tomorrow. I won't bother reading now, unless I live through the night.

I'd be surprised if anybody on my wagon is killed tonight, I'm sure you'll be appropriately fine in the morning.

You're right, all us scumbuddies were teaming together to lynch you. We never had any valid arguments.

[Retrospective]

Because the majority of the town have already expressed suspicion of me, I think tomorrow will end with my lynch, I think scum will keep people on my wagon alive. <- I understand this is WIFOM, but no more than it is to assume that you are going to be the one killed tonight. I'm not using it to attack anybody, accuse anyone, defend myself, or anything. It's just an observation that has no affect on the game.


inb4retrolol

If you were worried about this why in god's name would you say it? Here, mafia, this is what you can do to win. I mean seriously. I can't see a town perspective.

alsowifomlol

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... ront_Of_Me

^ The above link makes me automatically town.

[Retrospective]

hope I didn't frustrate you too much, Elleran. If you were truly too busy to play this game, then I'm sorry. If you were scum and trying to lay under the radar, then let this be a learning experience for you in taking good stances as scum. I learned this the hard way myself. Retro and Slaxx know.

I was really busy. xD and it's okay, no personal feelings hurt.

lol When will mod come and flip me already?

Pretty sure Elleran is scum.

[Retrospective]

Its all WIFOM now Retro.

Its all WIFOM now.

By saying that word in your post you are automatically mafia. Expect el simo to start tunneling you.

[Retrospective]

SHIT I'll never get my sweater back D:

It seems like you are much closer friends with Elleran than you lead us to believe.
BUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Retrospective]

HOW DID YOU HAVE A SWEATER IN YOUR POCKET LOLLL

Deep pockets = large amount of money = cooperation = corrupt = scum

[Retrospective]

corporation*

[Retrospective]

I gotta go to work but i just wanted to say that el simo is so bad at this game its funny. Im about 95% everyone you've ever fosd this game is town. You're either mafia or just a liability to town.
We have another misslynch and two of smit, simo, sweep are scum. The order doesn't matter as long as they're all checked.

[Retrospective]

I'm having trouble deciding who I want to vote the most. (Between el simo, Sweep and Smit)

I'm having trouble reading Smit because he is inexperienced and doing a lot of strange things that could indicate scum, but could also just indicate a new player. His claim on day one is something that also slows me down from voting him. I know he's new, but if he's familiar with mafia at all, he should know to keep his claiming options open as mafia.

I suspect el simo for obvious reasons.

And I'm gonna go find my quote for Sweep because I feel like you guys haven't given him enough attention yet. He's absolutely been scummy. Also seeing as I'm almost positive that ICE is town, it just strengthens my case against him. This would probably be my favorite lynch for today. With el simo in a close second.

Sweep. Well Sweep seems to only be capable of focusing on one thing at a time. To say he is tunneling is an understatement and I think that if he were town he'd care a bit more about what is going on around him. All he seems to do is quote me and say that what I'm saying is bullshit. Everytime he provides anything about any other player it's basically whatever the loudest person said on the matter. Another thing I've noticed is that Sweep has joined every bandwagon extremely late as if seeing if it would be safe. However, his reasoning behind why he is following is almost always outdated and word for word the reason why the other people joined the bandwagon. If he saw these reasons way back when they happened, why did he wait to talk about them? Why did he post 2-3 posts discrediting me before posting the old information about the other players? It makes absolutely no sense. Town wouldn't do this. My first suspicion grew on him when he implied beyond a doubt that ICE was town on like the second day. He didn't provide any case to support it it was just a matter of fact. In my opinion, he slipped. He knows that ICE isn't mafia and let that idea shine too brightly in his post. There was no way he could've been as sure as he was that ICE was town especially when ICE had put pressure on him at the same time. People were actually voting ICE at the time that sweep made the absolute statement.

I'm actually in a really great mood right now. I just realized that at least 2 of my fos's were right. And I could be dead on with 3/3.

[Retrospective]

Oops. I forgot to add the rest of my quote. The part talking about scum teams.

The interactions between el simo and Sweep have also been interesting. Sweep is one of the few players this game that el simo hasn't discredited or even looked at. Every time Sweep posts it's as if he's a broken record, but el simo acts like he's posting the word of god and hasn't questioned it at all.

The reason why I am willing to lynch Elleran today is simply because of the interaction, or lack of interaction between Elleran and Sweep. It's also intriguing how el simo tryed to switch and bw to someone who was inactive prior to Elleran's defence while all the while saying "I'll hammer Elleran."

With that in mind, I feel comfortable placing this vote.

Vote: Sweep

(I'll BW any of the three, but for now I'm steering toward who I think is the most scummy. Also I think you guys are gonna apply enough heat on el simo that you don't need my pressure on him as well.)

[Retrospective]

I also think that diddin, DH, slaxx are looking very clear. When ICE, Jace, Ben and I had all switched to el simo. These fhree stayed on Elleran. If any of them were mafia, they would have had ample time to hop off the Elleran wagon without anyone noticing. The fact that they didn't says town to me.

ICE is also looking clear to me, but for his involvement against el simo and Elleran rather than where his vote was placed when all the arguments were going down.

With all these almost certain towntells, I feel like we're sitting on an autowin with the misslynch alone. I don't think we even needed the town pr save/late mafia. Oh that reminds me, everyone in this thread has been largely active so I am seriously doubting the late mafia thing. Question: If one mafia is afk, can another still send in a kill? Or do they all have to do it for it to be successful?

Sorry for a bunch of small posts. I keep realizing I meant to say something else.

[Retrospective]

@ICE and those concerned: My vote will say were it is. If you don't like it, tough. I have never insulted anyone and I apologize to DH.

To be honest, I don't know what's what. I have no explanations and I've already claimed. The rest of my game will be on gut feelings and others thoughts. If you think that's lazy, tough.

MOD: remove me if you wish.

Smit. I assume you want to win so why don't you help us help you? We need to know where you're coming from. If you're indeed town, wouldn't it be better for all of us if you were not lynched? Think about it.

[Retrospective]

How you can say this and not notice Sweep is baffling to me.

I still don't like Jase. His posting habits are still terribly inactive and his content is regurgitated junk. About the only thing that he has produced himself is a push on Ell to post more, which isn't exactly ground breaking townie stuff, seeing as that was pretty commonplace for everyone at the time. He is honestly just as guilty as Ell was of actively lurking. People keep arguing that he is posting more content but it has all been clearly parroted information. I made a note about his content yesterday but didn't say what because I wanted to see if he'd actually come up with something on his own with out anybody noting that he has just been repeating information, but he didn't.

Also he was the only one who followed me on Sweep and made arguments of his own. Selective reading?

Your post can be summarized as: I want to lynch everyone but Slaxx, DH and Sweep. >_>

My stance about your play still stands. Everyone you seem to suspect, I see as town. (Not including this post as you've just fos'd almost everyone in the game)

[Retrospective]

Also if I remember correctly, most of us agreed that either Elleran OR diddin were scum. Not both.

[Retrospective]

Oh and saying how you want to cry twice in your post is NOT "very Rambo-esque of you". IJS.

[Retrospective]

How you can say this and not notice Sweep is baffling to me.

I still don't like Jase. His posting habits are still terribly inactive and his content is regurgitated junk. About the only thing that he has produced himself is a push on Ell to post more, which isn't exactly ground breaking townie stuff, seeing as that was pretty commonplace for everyone at the time. He is honestly just as guilty as Ell was of actively lurking. People keep arguing that he is posting more content but it has all been clearly parroted information. I made a note about his content yesterday but didn't say what because I wanted to see if he'd actually come up with something on his own with out anybody noting that he has just been repeating information, but he didn't.

Also he was the only one who followed me on Sweep and made arguments of his own. Selective reading?

Lol go through his posts and quote all his own original content, then maybe you will see my point.

That doesn't take away my argument. Even if what you're saying about Jase is true, why have you yet to make a similar response to Sweep? You're sitting here repeatedly voting one, and taking no notice to the other. Who has done the exact same thing and is at least (in my opinion, more) scummy than Jase.

Oh and saying how you want to cry twice in your post is NOT "very Rambo-esque of you". IJS.

First Blood Part One bro. Regardless, this post just proves my point about you. You purposely disagree with everything I do because I think you're bad. You're constantly trying to nab at me and belittle my arguments by demeaning me. Stop letting your emotions get in the way and play the game for the sake of the town, not your own appearance.

This part was a joke -- That's all it was. No attack at all.

Slaxx, comparing Retro to Smit is like comparing apples to oragnes. Retro actually has shown that he is intelligent, Smit is yet to do that.

Aww. :3

[Retrospective]

Wow.

Honestly, that's all I've got right now. Wow.

Logic says Smit is obvscum, gut say's he isn't. I generally follow with my logic as opposed to my gut, but I'm not ready to see Smit lynched quite yet. I'm a little concerned about how Slaxx declared that the Sweep wagon needed to stop, but is now seeming to push a Smit wagon quite hard (calling others to vote him) which may result in a very short day 2. I'm not against lynching Smit, but there are a trio of players who have literally not posted yet, and I do not want them flying under the radar.

This was my post I didn't copy/paste it from someone else's shuddup.

[Retrospective]

Minus the part ICE said stuff about Slaxx.

This wagon has caught a lot too much steam.

Look at the Elleran wagon, it was on again, off again and it was very slow. This is a sheep fest.

[Retrospective]

Not buy really, lets just lynch simo.

I'm for this

In all honestly, I think the most incriminating evidence against Smit is the fact that he followed in iamnobody's footsteps in defending Elleran/attacking Slaxx. Pretty much the only thing preventing me from voting right now is how fast you guys followed. Elleran took three weeks. This feels like it's taken 3 hours.

[Retrospective]

Ok so, that still leaves you offering to hammer, but not placing a vote. I can't think of a legitimate reason for that. You say you had the intent to hammer, but you didn't place a vote. You say you had the intent to hammer, but you didn't place a vote. You say you had the intent to hammer, but you didn't place a vote. That's the part I have a problem with. Any explanation why you needed to be the hammer dropper?

Yup I wanted my vote on you.

What exactly did that accomplish? Especially if you were going to turn around and hammer Elleran?

[Retrospective]

Back from my semi V/LA. Skimmed everything since the new day start and until I do more rereading I'm definitely in for a Sweep lynch.

I don't really see SimoScum right now, even though he avoided Elleran for a while, I don't think that there would be two competing wagons on scumbuddies without EXTREME bussing. But IIRC, Elleran never said too much about the competing simo wagon at the time it was at its peak.

That is an odd point. Why wouldn't Ell try and push a competing wagon on a townie, but rather say/do almost nothing about it....??

I agree with Ben here and would like to add that Elleran didn't push on el simo's lynch hardly at all. If I remember correctly, his vote stayed on diddin. (From my point of view, diddin is the town Elleran was trying to push toward.) Anyway, Elleran did give the el simo wagon his approval, but he added nothing and didn't post anything that would incriminating el simo. This is very intersting because I would think scum would jump for joy at another wagon forming and try to have the wagon pick up speed. The fact he didn't do this doesn't speak well for el simo. I think Elleran offered his limited approval in case el simo was lynched as scum, Elleran could have at least said he also supported the lynch.

I'm not sure what to think of him. I mentioned earlier that his weak resolve might be due to scums crap position but that isn't something I want to get into at all. His logic has been poor and his votes bad, but poor logic doesn't mean scummy. I am fairly certain he just has no idea what is going on. His very first post proves that he is pretty incapable at this game, as he straight insists on ignoring all the pages and content and votes no lynch, nobody in their right mind would do this, regardless of role. Taking into account his join date, I honestly feel he is an easy mislynch for scum.

I couldn't agree more. But we need to get rid of VI's earlier than later. I think we're in the position as said to be able to lose at worst a VT at best a scum. I always have trouble reading VI's as noobtown or noobscum...but do you even trust his ability with his vote in a scenario like lylo.

Its clear if he's town scum won't NK him. (yes more wine)

This is a good point and I hadn't really thought of it that way. Based on his voting patterns, it would be dangerous for him to be around at lylo... I just feel like it has too much support to be a legitimate lynch. Especially with how fast el simo hopped on.

--------

Hey, Sweep! Anything to add?

--------

I still feel like the scum team is el simo/sweep but I am more willing to vote Smit AFTER we discuss for at least a day or two. I'm not rushing a lynch on anyone.

[Retrospective]

I ISO'd to check.

Elleran's voting:
1. Sweep in RVS. (Seperation tatic? http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... g_patterns)
2. On to Slaxx. After he was called on it he switched to
3. Diddin. The voted stated here for me majority of the game, finally near getting lynched and while el simo was getting a lot of heat Elleran...
4. Unvoted -- It stayed like this until the Elleran wagon was absolutely going down

The final vote count shows Elleran on me, but I just ISO'd to check and this wasn't the case. Elleran did not vote me at any point during the game.

What you need to take away from this is that Elleran never voted el simo. Why would this happen if el simo was town and Elleran's key to survival?

[Retrospective]

I hate living in GMT as every day when I wake up I have 5 pages of content to read, I then am forced to make a longer post than I would normally like to as other people can spread content over lots of posts whereas I have to combine mine into one. I am simply overwelmed.

My first observation is that there seems to be a few votes on me simply stemming from what Retro C+P'd from previously. Firstly, I do not like his attack for the reason that he does not use quotes to back up his points which in my eyes seriously weakens any case as it forces us to make assumptions but with that aside here is a more direct response.

Do you want me to quote everyone of the posts you've made? They all fall into this. Why don't we let people ISO you and decide from themselves? Then you can defend your WHOLE game.

All he seems to do is quote me and say that what I'm saying is bullshit. Everytime he provides anything about any other player it's basically whatever the loudest person said on the matter. Another thing I've noticed is that Sweep has joined every bandwagon extremely late as if seeing if it would be safe.

Do you not agree you logic was flawed? Accusing me of jumping on bandwagons is just a blatent

lie

I only voted for two people in the whole of day 1, you and Elleran. That is as far from joining every bandwagon.

However, his reasoning behind why he is following is almost always outdated and word for word the reason why the other people joined the bandwagon. If he saw these reasons way back when they happened, why did he wait to talk about them? Why did he post 2-3 posts discrediting me before posting the old information about the other players? It makes absolutely no sense. Town wouldn't do this.

A direct contradiction to the accusation of tunnelling, make up your mind as to why I am scummy.

You're kidding right? Every time someone was under suspicion you were there (extremely late) to say that you agreed. You did this on el simo, Elleran and me but didn't vote either el simo or Elleran until the final hammer. Again let people ISO you and they'll see this is the case. You tunneled with your vote on me, all you added was that you didn't like my logic and then you copied other people's cases against other players. You were only brave enough to vote people who had big bandwagons on them previously. Elleran and I are both evidence of this.

My first suspicion grew on him when he implied beyond a doubt that ICE was town on like the second day. He didn't provide any case to support it it was just a matter of fact. In my opinion, he slipped. He knows that ICE isn't mafia and let that idea shine too brightly in his post. There was no way he could've been as sure as he was that ICE was town especially when ICE had put pressure on him at the same time. People were actually voting ICE at the time that sweep made the absolute statement.

Please provide Quotes to back this up, from my viewpoint I simply asserted it was such a crap case and it is acknowledged (now) that Ice does not make as crap cases as that (well, maybe not but the case was really really crap.) hence it must have been a gambit. I was describing it as a null tell rather than town as you suggest.

Oh really? Then why is it in you next post you said ICE was town? And don't even try, it's pretty clear that you thought he was town.

I have a strong feeling now even after all I have posted suspecting you that this is town on town and we both need to look at the wider picture.

I don't.

--------

At this point I think all three of them have to go, I don't care the order. Let's just get this done.

[Retrospective]

Also, my wagon had most heat at that point in time. What would you have all thought of Ell if I had been lynched and I flipped town?

So you're saying that Elleran didn't vote you because we would be more suspicious of him later IF you flipped town, so instead he allowed himself to be lynched day one? Is that seriously your argument?

[Retrospective]

Also, my wagon had most heat at that point in time. What would you have all thought of Ell if I had been lynched and I flipped town?

So you're saying that Elleran didn't vote you because we would be more suspicious of him later IF you flipped town, so instead he allowed himself to be lynched day one? Is that seriously your argument?

[Retrospective]

Why did that post twice? :O

[Retrospective]

@el simo; You are saying that Elleran didn't vote you with everyone because he would've been under more suspicion if you flipped town. Well you know what? He would've been ALIVE. We wouldn't have our second misslynch. No scum would pick their own death over looking slightly more scummy. There were two things that were going to happen. Either your lynch, or Elleran's. We now know Elleran was scum. Your arguement is "He would've been more scummy." You doesn't matter if you're scummy when you're DEAD. This line of defense is terrible.

[Retrospective]

We really need a VC because I want to put my vote on simo.

[Retrospective]

That's NOT what I'm saying. I would've thought having a townie defend Ell to his own death would've given him points for townie. I don't see why me being town makes him scummier. Regardless, the point doesn't matter if you think me flipping town makes him look scummier.

For the sake of argument, let's say you're town. (You're not, but that's beside the point.) Elleran would not have cared if you were lynched. Lynching town is good for mafia. He would've jumped on your lynch. Instead he UNVOTED and sat back and watched the votes pile up. Elleran had no reason not to follow along.

So why didn't Elleran follow? Why did Elleran pick his own death over his own personal survival coupled with as you say town's lynching? Mafia is concerned with survival so obviously your survival meant more to his win condition than his did.

You know, screw it. I'm confident enough, if this hammers you so beat it.

Vote: el simo

[Retrospective]

Not buying it. I say someone hammers.

[Retrospective]

No offence to Elleran, but Elleran didn't do anything to suggest he could think this far ahead.

This coupled with my case against you yesterday has me next to positive you're mafia.

Oh which am I btw? Scum or town?

[Retrospective]

I want to know purely for my own amusement.

[Retrospective]

No offence to Elleran, but Elleran didn't do anything to suggest he could think this far ahead.

This coupled with my case against you yesterday has me next to positive you're mafia.

Oh which am I btw? Scum or town?

YOUR case on me? You mean that post where you took what Benmage said and then added stuff I didn't do to it?

No, the one I made in day one. With all the Elleran/you connections. Like how every time you had to pick between elleran and other player to vote, you always picked the other player. Stuff like that, I had a lot of them. I can quote it if you'd like.

[Retrospective]

Whoops.

Unvote;
Vote: el simo

I am very confident of an el simo/sweep team.

Ill post more tomorrow when im on my computer

[Retrospective]

Its no different than the thats too scummy or thats too obvious fallacy. Its the same flavor of ice cream, it just has different toppings.

Except Ben was the first person on my wagon and has repeatedly stated that he finds me scummy. Why does he have to rehash his old arguments to vote me?

Siigh, if Benmage flips scum I will openly admit that I have played terribly and have been off my game, after having defending Ell. Anywho back to immigration laters.

What about me? Why don't I count? D:

[Retrospective]

And I don't find Ben scummy at all.

I think the evidence against el simo is so damning that it doesn't really require a reason to vote him.

[Retrospective]

oh and @ICE; I'll gladly make that case. But I'm a bit busy right now and seeing Sweep hasn't even been able to grace us with this presence I feel that it is rather unneeded.

Btw, I'm feeling a bit of rage that everyone agree's with my fos's d2, but no one listened to me d1.

[Retrospective]

Oh one more thing. Now that el simo is on the chopping block it seems that everyone is outting much more suspicion toward Sweep. If he is the more common denominator, I'm perfectly fine with lynching him first.

[Retrospective]

How were my cases shaky yesterday? My cases today are almost idetical as I'm using mostly my cases from day one to base them. You guys just didn't pay any attention >_>

Especially if I called the three mafia team day one, I get at least one I told you so at the end of this game.

[Retrospective]

@ICE; I was never against an Elleran lynch. I even help build a case on him in the beginning. I felt like there were bigger fish to fry. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we lynch mafia, but I would have rather lynched el simo/Sweep yesterday as they are probably the mafia pr's.

[Retrospective]

Wow I missed a whole page when I caught up. Lemme catch up for reals

[Retrospective]

Eh... I can't believe I'm saying this but simo begging for Jace to be noticed as he is being lynched strikes me as town. However his whole lynch me attitude is pissing me off. Isn't it against the rules to play against win his win condition? If he was so adament for his lynch, he could self vote which makes me think he's mafia trying to wifom his way out. Talk about a tone chance. Yesterday I was a moron for suspecting him, today he wants to be lynched...

I'm going to appease Slaxx because I feel like Sweep is just as good of a lynch. I also want to see how long this self-sacrificial attitude el simo is playing lasts with a tad less pressure on him. I can always switch back, but let's see what happens next.

Unvote;
Vote: Sweep

[Retrospective]

@ICE; I was never against an Elleran lynch.

And that is why I used the phrasing "tolerated, but didn't push". Why did you state that as if I claimed you were against it?

I'm really torn about simo's martyr play. It could very well be a scum gambit, but I'm not sure. I'm inclined to agree that we need to get rid of him. We have too many VT claims right now, and they need to start dying sooner than later. I'm inclined to lynch Sweep today because I think he's really scummy, but at the same time lynching simo is a logically sound choice.

Once again, if Retro can manage to show via quotes where Sweep has done the things Retro claims, and that Sweep is just as guilty of what simo claims Jace is guilty for, then we've got a decent likelihood of having the whole team. I'm getting chills considering the possibility of a perfect game.

I stated like that because that's how I interpreted it. I'm uncomfortable with you trying to put a justification on your townread on me. I'm only town if Sweep is scum? If he's town, I'm scum for not being overjoyed about an Elleran lynch when you too switched to el simo? Granted, I don't think Sweep will flip town, but you should never give justification like that. It leaves a safe place for your vote for the next day, as well as mafia to sheep you.

I'm feeling kinda lazy right now. I'll probably do it tomorrow.

Here's a question though: I set the base on Sweep. Why can't anyone else ISO him and say what they think? I know I've lead the lynch here, but you guys should actually contribute to the lynch as well rather than sheep me.

The stuff you should look at is him talking about ICE's 'gambit'. Then followed by his reads on ICE without a case despite him saying he gave one. Then look at how unproductive he was throughout the rest of the game. Any arguement he's made you can find roughly a page or two before he says it. He also gives his concent for both an el simo and a Elleran lynch, but very very very very late and never follows through with a vote.

If all of you guys can't be bothered to look I guess I'll put the case together tomorrow. But I'll be slightly disappointed that you guys are just waiting for someone to hand you scum and can't look for yourself.

[Retrospective]

LOL i spoke too soon, I love you slaxx.

[Retrospective]

Now that I read it, it doesn't have many of the points I made in my cases. I'll add more to it tomorrow after school.

[Retrospective]

Well it seems I'll be making this case. Because I'm doing it, I'm gonna do it right. This is going to very long. I'm also going to quote my old points I made in previous posts to show you that I was right way back when, and I did provide context before as well. Well here goes.

Oh, I'm also going to quote Jase as he was the only one who followed my train of logic on Sweep during day one. [This is part of the reasons I think Jase is so town.]

One more thing, read all the quotes. The real meat of the information is there.

--------

Random Number Generator picks random number 8!

Vote: Elleran

VOTE: Sweep for prizes.

Gonna pull an el simo and post this here: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... g_patterns
Very possible to be the separation tactic, but not incriminating by it's self.

------
It is more incriminating, however, when you realize that Sweep didn't address Elleran at any other point in the game.

The following posts are two posts apart. (Posts 123-125)

Politics, the economy? What more do you want me to say?

Bandwagons in RVS are not tells.
I think Retro is suspicious not because necessarily because of his absolute -> fuzzy (Although it is part of it) but also because of his explanation and defence being so weak.
Benmage is trying to play us.
The case against me was utter crap by ICE and must have been a gambit to draw out some scum looking for a bandwagon.

I have thought more than most players in this game already.

1. el simo - He misunderstood the point I made about Retro as previously detailed. He makes a good narrow point about Retro and his use of WIFOM.
2. Iamnobody - Inactive
3. diddin - neutral, waiting for proper analysis.
4. TheLonging - You have been jostling me for more and more information to confirm or deny your suspicions, what are your suspicions, please make them public. I don't like the stoneclad confirmation that ICE is scum when the crap in the accusation is so obviously crap that it is only there to draw a reaction from the blind.

5. ICEninja - Done

6. Slaxx - I have made a post about Slaxx and my suspicions about his initial banter but am not sure what to make of it, since then he has offered no valuable insight apart from a a small cryptic clue.
7. Retrospective - Done

8. Elleran - Neutral, more needed

9. Sweep - Me
10. Benmage - Done
11. rewq455 - Inactive
12. Jase - Inactive

The accusations brought against me by ICE sum up to a RVS vote, please try to tell me that someone serious would try to form a case of a RVS vote. It does not add up.

My read on you Retro is scum currently due to the reasons stated previously.

So, VOTE: Retrospective

@Sweep; I just ISO'd you, and I don't see where you gave your read on ICE.

I think that ICE has a current pro-town read. I have mentioned reasons before. #125 and #123

#123 - The case against me was utter crap by ICE and must have been a gambit to draw out some scum looking for a bandwagon.
#125 - (From TheLonging's analysis) I don't like the stoneclad confirmation that ICE is scum when the crap in the accusation is so obviously crap that it is only there to draw a reaction from the blind.

Put these together and you get the picture as to why my read on ICE is clean so far, The accusation is so obvious that it is only a real accusation to the blind.

This is incriminating for several reasons. First I'll focus on the the clearing of ICE, then we can look at him denying it.

Why did you assume that ICE was using a gambit? This concerns me a bit because you seemed to have skipped over the possibility of him being scum. For this to be true, ICE would also have to be reasonably sure that you were town as well. Upon rereading, it appears he wasn't. This is an interesting reaction and I will probably bring this up later.

Well I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure Ices 'case' was a pretty standard RVS escape wagon. Not some an attempt at some sort of crazy scum finding masterstroke. It's silly to attack him for it like some people have, but equally as silly to go 'Hey nice job there townie McGuee'. Either way your explanation of his actions suggest that you either know that he's town, or you want us to think he's town when he's not. One way or the other you come off suspicious.

My first suspicion grew on him when he implied beyond a doubt that ICE was town on like the second day. He didn't provide any case to support it it was just a matter of fact. In my opinion, he slipped. He knows that ICE isn't mafia and let that idea shine too brightly in his post. There was no way he could've been as sure as he was that ICE was town especially when ICE had put pressure on him at the same time. People were actually voting ICE at the time that sweep made the absolute statement.

Sweep completely eliminated the chance of ICE being scum even though ICE built a case on him and voted him. He was almost instantly sure that ICE was town. The reason why this is incriminating is because I think it was a slip as well as one of the moves he has already shown that he likes to do. (Appeal to attacker, read slaxx's post)

Hold on this is where it gets better. I think it's pretty apparent you can tell Sweep's position on ICE. So now read this.

My first suspicion grew on him when he implied beyond a doubt that ICE was town on like the second day. He didn't provide any case to support it it was just a matter of fact. In my opinion, he slipped. He knows that ICE isn't mafia and let that idea shine too brightly in his post. There was no way he could've been as sure as he was that ICE was town especially when ICE had put pressure on him at the same time. People were actually voting ICE at the time that sweep made the absolute statement.

Please provide Quotes to back this up, from my viewpoint I simply asserted it was such a crap case and it is acknowledged (now) that Ice does not make as crap cases as that (well, maybe not but the case was really really crap.) hence it must have been a gambit.

I was describing it as a null tell rather than town as you suggest.

Oh really? Then why is it in you next post you said ICE was town? And don't even try, it's pretty clear that you thought he was town.

I don't feel like I should have to say anything as it speaks for itself but if you missed it go read his quotes. Something doesn't belong, huh?

--------
Next we'll look at how he followed BW's late but never added anything of value.

Sweep added nothing to the Elleran wagon but let's see how many times he promised content.

I am not going to comment on Ice's post until I have my own ideas on Elleran.

Thoughts on Ell coming next post.

Then is his only post analyzing Elleran.

Elleran does make some excuses and apologies over his play indicating nerves over possible slips. (school, hamlet) but I don't have time now for a full analysis as I have been promising. Will 100% do it tomorrow.

Go check the thread, everyone had been saying it for pages. Also if you read my post after it I showed how this tell isn't even being used on the person who did it the most, diddin. [Don't worry, diddin, I don't suspect you.]

Sweep only mentioned el simo three times.

Every time I find myself reading a post by el simo, I find myself agreeing with the well structured and logical arguments which he presents, my only criticism would be that he has been quite narrow in his analysis. Mainly focusing on one or two players. His argument about Retro is very well developed but his argument on "a classic scum" (Elleran) can be summed up in the space of a few paragraphs. The disparity between the lengths indicates that he has spent a lot more time targeting Retro than Elleran even though he thinks that Elleran is more suspicious.

This is when el simo was leading and everyone was taking turns saying he was town (much to my frustration)
Then after awhile you guys start to see el simo in a scummy light and this is Sweep's only other post about el simo before day 2 after this:

About El Simo, to me his "pressure" is not pressure at all and am not sure why no-one picked up on this earlier. Maybe because his aura is "too town". I think a re-read of his play is in order.

Again we had pages of saying that his Pressure wasn't pressure before Sweep said this.

Okay so 5 pages overnight. I still want a lynch on Retro because of the past and because of his immature playing of the game. My second suspect has to be currently Simo who I see as running around his own tail trying to confuse everyone by re-refuting each point made against him by ICE, arguing over theory (which is leading us astray) and flipflopping around the shop who to vote. Saying this I still want a lynch on Retro.

Hay that sounds familiar too!
Both of these serve as a way that he can say he offered his consent without actually providing anything.

Now for me:
el simo and ICE attacked me for the stupid three mafia thing. (Now would be a good time to say "I'm sorry, Retro, it really wasn't a slip. Sorry for drawing it out and being annoying.") They also didn't like my defense to it, quickly after Sweep joins the BW.

My read on you Retro is scum currently due to the reasons stated previously.

So, VOTE: Retrospective

He didn't state any reasons previously. ICE and el simo did.

--------
Now we're gonna look at how much of a broken record he is. And I'll point out where everyone else stopped voting me and where Sweep continued. (Jase did most of the work for this section)
His post on page 8, #192 is too long for me to quote, but read over it and see if you remember hearing all those arguments before. I'll give you a hint: ICE and el simo.

Retro: I have constantly pounded you and it is evident why after reading the thread. Your arguments consistently contain huge logical flaws and whereas your original action was not very scummy, these huge holes are (as detailed extensively by el simo) extremely damning.

THIS IS WHERE OTHER PEOPLE STOPPED VOTING ME.

He then quoted some random section of one my posts and said "Another logical flaw."

Have you considered for one second that your logic is consistently flawed? Because I agree with simo, does that mean that my argument is any weaker? I agree with Simo because I have read the same things as you, I have read the same defence that he has and come to the same conclusion. You are just trying to discredit me by repeating the same argument that my material is recycled when the truth is that my argument is stronger as I am not the only one who thinks it.

Are you defending the fact that your defences contain logical flaws?

Also your incessant mentioning of me "parroting" is not a reason to discredit me. (and not a reason why I am scummy because I am not parroting). You are so angry because someone suspects you and you think that being angry will help clear your name.

Okay so 5 pages overnight. I still want a lynch on Retro because of the past and because of his immature playing of the game. My second suspect has to be currently Simo who I see as running around his own tail trying to confuse everyone by re-refuting each point made against him by ICE, arguing over theory (which is leading us astray) and flipflopping around the shop who to vote. Saying this I still want a lynch on Retro.

Now I'm going to post some of Jase's arguments:

Anyways, it looks like the day is winding down. I like sweep as a lynch candidate. I've seen scum hold on desperately to what seemed like a sure lynch (in the case retro) and I think that's what's happening here. I would also accept diddin or ell.

@Jase
You say that "hanging onto a sure lynch" like I don't believe that Retro is scum, the opposite is true, I still think Retro is scum.

Yeah, you're not scum because you're town right? That dispels my suspicion then. Yep. Well sort of. Actually not at all. I didn't say I thought you were town pushing a bad wagon. I think you're scum who's still trying to get what must have looked like a guaranteed lynch at first. How in any way does 'I think he's scum' refute that?

Sweep: Why are you so adamant that retro is scum? Your case against him from what I can see is that 1. He reacted poorly to early pressure and 2. His arguments are flawed. Is there a part I missed? Why does this make him more scummy than anyone else.

Sweep because early on retro was one hell of an easy target. Now it seems sweep is still holding on to a possible retro lynch for dear life. He hasn't tried to sell the wagon at all nor is he actively pursuing retro, but he still has him as his top suspect.

It's pretty easy to see that Jase has a point when you can see how early other's stopped voting me because I stop being their top suspect. It's curious why Sweep had so much to say just about me and literally no one else.

--------
Stuff on other players:

In my reread, I noticed that Sweep attacked Benmage a little bit. This seems to be the only thing he did himself without following other players. He attacked Ben's actvity and Ben saying that he was vet without adding much content in the beginning of the game. I hope this gives those thinking a Sweep/Ben team pause. Seems unnessary for someone who only provides recycled garbage to focus his attention on his partner without the help of someone else. Plus he never focused on Elleran so I don't see a theme here.

Through skimming through the game again I realized just how much fire there was between diddin and Elleran. There really isn't any way I can see this kid being mafia.

-------------
Before I made this post, I had slightly forgotten how much I suspected Sweep. el simo is scummy, yes. But please can we lynch Sweep today? This paired with my two cases prior to this post and Slaxx's post I'm not quite sure how you guys could justify not following me.

[Retrospective]

That long enough for you guys? rage rage rage.

[Retrospective]

Now go ISO me and read my last three exchanges with Sweep about my previous case. With all these quotes to back me up you guys should finally see the light.

[Retrospective]

Did he not read my post? I did all the work for him...

[Retrospective]

You do sound very sure that I am scum, I am looking forward to your reaction once I flip town.

My arguments are crap, my play is poor, my activity is poor. Pull the trigger..

You can not justify playstyle as an excuse to scummy behaviour as if you do then you will never be scummy. It is the weakest defence in the book bar from I am town because I am not scum. Sarcasm in this case is a sign of anger from Retro who is feeling the pressure of the town and is a good indication of his current feelings. I am not sure where people are getting "no original thought" from when I spent a good time reading Retro's iso to lift quotes for my post. This just seems a way to discredit the thoughts I make (and everyone else who made them) when you should be concentrating on the thoughts.

lol gg.

[Retrospective]

See simo, Im right. I was right yesterday, I will be right today, then tomorrow we can lynch Ben and I can have a perfect game.

Hey, I was on Sweep all of yesterday >:O

[Retrospective]

When Sweep flips mafia it pretty much clears Smit, Jace and me.

It's interesting to note the difference in el simo and Sweep upon pressure. They both said "fine, lynch me" but el simo claimed, gave a dying fos and also claimed.

Sweep has done none of the above.

[Retrospective]

Um. what the fuck?

Why haven't you read it? I'm not really sure what to think.

What the hell is the town motivation to ignore a post that other people are obviously paying a lot of attention to?

[Retrospective]

Unvote

I'm waiting for Ben to give his piece.

Plus I sorta wanna hammer him because I did all the work :3

[Retrospective]

How mad would everyone be at me if I just went ahead and hammered?

[Retrospective]

Well looking back I see DH was on ell fairly early, but he did little to push the case. It's difficult to pull any alignment info based on the flip. He could have pushed it just enough to avoid having the obvious lack-o-connection tell, but just because he could have doesn't mean he did. Oh well the Smit thing is still a nice tell.

So DH what's your excuse?

Also while I'm calling people out for dissapearing.

Longing: HEY where did you go? What do you think about DH, eh, Longing? Are you even still here? What are your opinions on sweep simo and ben? Why aren't you posting? Who do you think we should lynch today? Who do you think we should lynch tomorrow.

I also think that diddin, DH, slaxx are looking very clear. When ICE, Jace, Ben and I had all switched to el simo. These fhree stayed on Elleran. If any of them were mafia, they would have had ample time to hop off the Elleran wagon without anyone noticing. The fact that they didn't says town to me.

[Retrospective]

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Oh well Sweep is likley scum.

I'm mad I'm not voting him though so.

Vote: Sweep

Now he's extra dead.

[Retrospective]

Hey guys notice how Smit just did exactly what Ell did?

What do you mean?

[Retrospective]

@el simo; Before you go and get replaced. Sorry we didn't get along well. I was immature and so yeah.

[Retrospective]

I think he said that if Sweep is mafia you shouldn't be fos'ing him, and if Sweep is town just lynch him.

[Retrospective]

DH, could you go into further detail at how my attitude is terrible? I'm kinda confused.

[Retrospective]

@el simo; Before you go and get replaced. Sorry we didn't get along well. I was immature and so yeah.

No worries I was probably a little harsh myself, if anything blame JDodge for instilling these ideals about WIFOM on me.

I still think that WIFOM isn't 100% fallacious and has a large impact on the game. But I can see how it's less reliable, but when is anything about scumhunting 100% reliable?

[Retrospective]

I didn't know DH thought I was town yesterday. :O

I figured people still suspected me.

[Retrospective]

No this is classic bussing, Slaxx.

[Retrospective]

Shit i said that outloud

[Retrospective]

I was feeling a bit uneasy when Smit came and hammered but all of the discussion after the hammer has just reinforced my towntells on everyone. Except maybe diddin, but that's just because he hasn't posted.

[Retrospective]

Actually that makes sense ICE, sorry. I forgot we were even in twilight >>

We'll see about smit tomorrow. If Sweep is scum I'm gonna lol if smit is mafia. But I highly doubt it. If Sweep flips mafia its more or less Ben or El Simo, maybe TL.

There's no way there is a Sweep/smit team. There's so much pointing away from it. Just look at how confident Sweep was in a smit lynch.

[Retrospective]

The problem with Smit is I can't really find anyone I could see him being a partner with other than DH or maybe diddin. And I have those guys almost absolutely cleared for different reasons. So I'm having trouble seeing smit as scum at all.

[Retrospective]

Nice hammer retro.

Hey bro, Nice counting slaxx. How's the egg?

Simo: "Hey guys notice how Smit just did exactly what Ell did?" --- "Not to mention the opportunistic hammer" ---

"I would laugh if we got the vote count wrong and Retro just hammered"

Nice counting but I feel you knew.

--- " The dooming tell for Ell was how she did nothing until someone mentioned her name, ie purposely lurking. Smit just completely flew under the radar for quite a few pages and as soon as someone (name: Jase) mentioned him he comes back with a scummy as hammer."

Vote Simo

Richard got the vote count wrong. YOU were the hammer.

And I'm kind of mad. My case against Sweep was completely legitimate. Otherwise you guys wouldn't have followed me. It's not like I made the shit up. He did ALL of that. I don't understand why a townie would play so poorly.

I don't know who I suspect next. His flip really threw me off. The only thing I saw from yesterday is that ICE kept saying if Sweep flipped town we should lynch Smit. I thought this was odd because no one else was setting up for Sweeps town flip. Butt ICE is dead.

Also, so all we've seen are VT's and a goon die. Shouldn't we have at least one investigative role? After two days do they honestly have NOTHING?

[Retrospective]

@Slaxx; You don't have to defend your position on Sweep yesterday. Or else everyone else would have to as well. That kid was scummy and he deserved to be lynched.

I'm haven't made up my mind on who we should focus on today. The obvious choice is Smit. I just don't want to have a day that is as short as d2 was.

Anyway, I'm not gonna ISO Smit until later or at least until someone brings forward a bunch of stuff. My interest level for this game when Sweep flipped town plummeted.

My read on Jace has liquiflied a bit but is still in town.

I admit I giggled when ICE died because it means simo was wrong again. And I'm not sure where I would rank simo. There are some towntells he pulled yesterday, but I'm not sure if that was just me favoring a Sweep lynch or if they were actually significant. If Slaxx is mafia then he deserves to win because I think he's town.

I still don't think there was a bus d1 with DH, Slaxx and diddin. Especially diddin. But I'm not sure where I stand on Jace/simo/smit/ben

[Retrospective]

Erm is this game just full of VTs?

[Retrospective]

Meh. I'm trying to care what happens next in this game. Sweep being town just ruined this game like completely.

Who does everyone think Smit's final partner is? It seems like everyone alive was ready to vote him yesterday except me and ICE. ICE is dead so that just leaves me. Think I"m his partner?

Also trying to think from mafia's point of view. ICE said a million and one times that Smit should be lynched should Sweep be town. Sweep was town and then ICE miraculously dies. Smit is obviously new at this game, but do you think he would kill the person that was pushing for his lynch? It seems more likley that he's an easy lynch and mafia set it up further by killing ICE.

I'm still in favor of a massclaim. There was a save yesterday and we should have some investigative role. That leaves 3 clears does it not? It would significantly narrow down our list of suspects and force mafia to have to cc today if they're going to cc at all. Seeing as this game is dying, I really don't see the downside. So what if it outs the prs mafia has only killed one person and they were town. They can't kill all of us before we find the last two mafia.

[Retrospective]

I am still here and still content on a smit lynch. El simo may be the last scum. Though now I'm not sure. I guess I'd say diddin if I HAD to pick one.

Why?

Actually, why for all three? And what do you think of massclaiming?

[Retrospective]

The three clears I was referring to were the doc, the saved and the investigation role. Any added reports or just a bonus.

I still think we should massclaim.

And if you're refraining from claiming because you're afraid of mafia attention, you just softclaimed hardcore. It's not like mafia wouldn't catch that.

[Retrospective]

Thats what Im sayin bros. ^^

Plus if we have 3 PR claims IMO all 3 of them are clear, or at least 2, because 2-3 is standard mininormal.

We already have two VT claims, if both of them are town, then yeah...mafia has a great shot at PRs tonight and I dont wanna take that risk.

This is a good point.

If the claimed VT's are town, mafia already has like a 3/4 shot of hitting a pr. It's better for us to know before it happens.

[Retrospective]

I believe it. I'm glad that I was right about both of you.

I'm going to claim last. I have my reasons as I'll explain upon claiming.

[Retrospective]

Alright. I was going to wait for a investigative role to claim so I could say "I roleblocked you! You're mafia!" and vote for reactions but I wasn't expecting Hider. (I had to ask Slaxx what that role even did.)

Anyway, I think we have autowin.

I'll roleblock someone who claims VT, DH tells us his target. If he picks scum only he will die and we will know who to lynch. Doc can be on me and we can just go at it. Slaxx will probably be clear.

I have a question, should we not use this ml? I haven't counted it out but it seems like mafia can get two kills and if we lynch town and then two town dies I feel that we could be in a very bad place. Also is there a chance I was wrong about the number of mafia at the beginning of this game? If mafia can kill twice would it still be balanced with three people as mafia?

[Retrospective]

Eww I didn't finish my thought.

Slaxx will probably be the clear at lylo.*

[Retrospective]

Also I don't think mafia has a stalker role because they should've gotten at least two stalks and with Smit claiming VT and Sweep and el simo claiming VT is seems like they would have had enough stalks to hit a pr last night.

[Retrospective]

I'm Town Roleblocker, DH.

I thought it was obvious when I said "I roleblocked you!"

[Retrospective]

Lemme check.

[Retrospective]

I can vote and speak during the day and I can prevent a night action by night.

Also, I can go look for my post, but I implied that this was absolutely a doc save somewhere yesterday because I knew there couldn't be a jailkeeper/roleblocker in the same game.

[Retrospective]

I'm just a VT. Did Retro ever claim who he RB'd?

Oh! My bad.

I didn't role block anyone. Both nights. In EM it's considered poor play to roleblock before only one mafia left. Because you could easily stop investigations or doc saves.

I'm going to pick a VT to be on tonight now that I know who the people I should NOT role block are.

[Retrospective]

Right. It's a nightly action then.

So, lets wait for TL, Jase and Benmage.

o.o what else could it be?

[Retrospective]

Right. It's a nightly action then.

So, lets wait for TL, Jase and Benmage.

o.o what else could it be?

I've been a town RBer before. I've had 2 blocks only. I was just curious if there was a certain restriction.

Ohhhhhhhh, nope. It doesn't say anything like that.

We're waiting on Jase and TL, right?

[Retrospective]

I'm just a VT. Did Retro ever claim who he RB'd?

Oh! My bad.

I didn't role block anyone. Both nights. In EM it's considered poor play to roleblock before only one mafia left. Because you could easily stop investigations or doc saves.

I'm going to pick a VT to be on tonight now that I know who the people I should NOT role block are.

Weird...I don't think I've seen a RB willfully choose not to RB. I've never been one, but when I was a jk I utilized the role like a RB seeking to stop nks.

JK is different because it serves as a doc. Me RB'ing someone doesn't do anything except stop their night action but if there is more than one mafia the kill still goes through. (Right? Or at least that's how the mechanics work at EM) I saw that I could only do harm by using my night action.

[Retrospective]

I've never been in a game where Mafia had more than 1 nk...let alone a mini.... why after seeing 0 kills n1 did you not use it? Plus isn't blocking 1 kill better than letting 2 go through?

I'm not sure what you're saying.

When I was taling about mafia being able to double kill I was referring to DH's hide death. And I can't stop a kill so why use my RB when it could only hinder town? What about that is confusing you? It may not be what you're used to, but that doesn't make me wrong.

[Retrospective]

Retro, do you have any completed games on this site?

One and I was Jailkeeper actually.

I assumed killing mechanics worked like they did in EM. I've never been mafia in forum mafia, so I just made the assumption.

In that case, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I wasn't using the full potential of this role.

[Retrospective]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15202

[Retrospective]

I'm confused. Why would you pick him?

[Retrospective]

That sounds legit because Richard is from EM and thats how things work on EM. I still believe Diddin's doc claim too. Here is what we can do:

We have simo's replacement confirm the mason
We lynch simo
If he flips scum, Jase is last mafia
If he flips mason, Jase is another clear.

DH needs to find out if hiding behind mafia kills him or not.

Right now one of DH and Retro is mafia if jase is legit. Where is no way a mod would put two roles that if they visit scum they die in a game. That could lead to mylo on d1. (9/3-1 mislynch=8/8-2 bad visits=6/3-night kill=5/3=mylo).

I support this, but I want simo/replacement to post first.

And you left Smit out of your equation completely.

I don't know who I believe more between DH/Jase.

@TL; you're picking between the wrong people. DH/Jase roles wouldn't work together, not DH and I.

Actually now that I think of it after three pr's claimed mafia's best play would be to claim VT, not Mason and work it like the EM game mechanics.

Looking more closely at DH's claim it clears someone we already know to be clear and then clears TL... Hmm. I'm actually leaning toward siding with Jase.

@Slaxx; Do you think Richard would've done the math to figure that out? It seems like with all the pr's in this setup, would be more balanced to have two roles that could die from their own night actions. And if they did, town would have know about the mylo because of the number of deaths. I think they could both exist. However if this is the case mafia would HAVE to be smit/Ben.

[Retrospective]

So, if you ignore DH's and Retro's plays and look at them at face value, who do you think is town/scum? DH has been consistent town throughout this whole game for me, so I believe his claim.

Just realized something! It's weird that you don't seem to believe DH's role because it clears you, but rather that DH's play has been consistent. Looking back over the game, how do you figure? Consistence isn't a measure of how town someone is, but even if it was how has DH been more consistent than me? I believe up until today I've fos'd the same three people the whole game... So by that logic, it should be me that you support.

This just strikes me as odd. It seems like TL doesn't believe the claim and felt the need to find another reason to clear DH. This is awkward because he both implies that Jase will be clear and that he used something that doesn't measure town to clear DH. And it's not even something that DH has done the most this game.

Someone tell me what you think so I know I'm not just looking too deep into things.

[Retrospective]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Mason

Read that. It doesn't say anything about mason's dying upon visiting mafia. However, that is exactly how they work in EM. This pretty much confirms Jase in my eyes.

If we can rule out both Jase and DH's roles being in the same game together, I think this is now the best lynch.

Vote: DH