Mini 1105: A Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Zdenek]

Hi. I'll read the thread and let you know what I think within the next day or so.

[Zdenek]

I'll start off by commenting on the new Ross wagon as LlamaGod asked. I agree that it is unlikely that someone would lie about seeing another person online, so I am going to say that either he made a mistake or is telling the truth. I think neither of these options tells us anything about his alignment. While it's true that scum would like to hide behind "but we caught him lying, so we had to vote him," townies could also use this reason to vote someone while scum just sit by and watch. Anyway, I'm going with null on the incident in general.

If there is anything else anyone wouldd like me to comment on, please ask.

Here are some people who caught my eye.

Agar: puts Mute at L-2 for quoting an IC, and in this post there is a bit of spaghetti flinging (accusing Mute of pseudo IC'ing and a scumbag freaking out, I think that since Mute is fairly new, his "mute is over reacting because he is aware of the sincerity of the pressure on him" argument is unreasonable). There's some protown fluff. He says that there is a "major inconsistency" in the RossWilliam's, I saw dizzle online argument, but never says what that inconsistency is. I think this is him using an incredibly exaggerated argument to cast doubt on Ross's argument.

Ellibereth: I don't like the no vote at the start of the game. I see it as avoiding conflict. He presents a false dilemma and points it out. He also posts a lot of fluff.

I think Mute's been pretty scummy because of the no lynch vote at the start of the game, unvoting under pressure, pro-town banter, the L-1 vote. I also don't like the mutual unvote between Rob and Mute.

pappums rat: I don't like how he got on to the Mute wagon at the start of the game. I can't see how he couldn't have considered getting on the wagon, so the way he chose not to and then changed his mind at the request of Tasky feels unnatural. I don't like the unvote of Mute when rain enters the game.

RobCapone: He's been guilty of "showing up when his name is called," he's made some pro-town banter. However, his attacks on Agar and Ellibereth show active scum hunting.

RossWilliam: Fluff posting at the start of the game and what felt like playing dumb. I think the fact that he unvoted Dizzle makes his attack on Dizzle seem insincere.

At the moment, I don't think Ellibereth, Pappums Rat or Rob is scummy enough to be lynched, but I wouldn't object to lynching mute. I'd be surprised if there wasn't one scum in RossWilliams and Agar, and I think Agar is scummier.

Vote Agar

[Zdenek]

VP, could you explain how the killing of Agar could have been done to save Jerbs?

[Zdenek]

I'll repeat myself: VP, could you explain how the killing of Agar could have been done to save Jerbs?

[Zdenek]

If the scum had an ability to kill the leading wagon and thought it would end the day.

Under the assumption that this was a scum killing, which I think is unlikely in the first place, I think it is much more likely that scum killed Agar to ensure a Jerbs' lynch (since he was the competing wagon at the time), than the scum didn't understand their role and killed Agar to try to save Jerbs.

Zdenek is looking rather obviously like Jerbsbuddy #1.
He didn't mention Jerbs when catching up despite Jerbs being more important than most topics.
He was on Agar's wagon, which looked like a counterwagon to protect Jerbs.
Now he and Jerbs are both trying to use the pretty much ridiculous suggestion that scum were responsible for the daykill to protect Jerbs.

I didn't mention everything in my catchup post. In my read through, I didn't find too much remarkable about Jerbs. I have in my notes that he made a useless post and a post that seemed too logical.

I have never suggested that scum used the day-kill to protect Jerbs. In fact, I was actively questioning VP about this suggestion.

[Zdenek]

I want to lynch LlamaGod today.

- LlamaGod random votes, and then does nothing until he points out that Ross is at L-1, and he does this again a few posts later. I often find this sort of pro-town act coming from scum.

- LlamaGod, votes Jerbs for making an overly logical post. I agree that this is a scum-tell, but he makes a pretty good case against Agar too, see his ISO 9.

- I know there is a good chance this isn't a big deal, but in his ISO 9 he says,

The following looks like lining up an RW mislynch for after a Dizzle mislynch.

This is a possible scum slip; how does he know they are both mislynches?

Notice that he calls for the lynching of Agar or Jerbs in his ISOs 9 through 12. Bussing a scum buddy, while pushing a townie lynch is a common scum tactic.

Then there was the daykill, and Agar flipped town.

I think Llama'd painted himself into a corner after Agar's flip. Considering the time left, it was unlikely that anyone other than Jerbs could have been lynched, so LlamaGod decided to bus Jerbs harder.

He says in ISO 14:

Zdenek is looking rather obviously like Jerbsbuddy #1.
He didn't mention Jerbs when catching up despite Jerbs being more important than most topics.
He was on Agar's wagon, which looked like a counterwagon to protect Jerbs.
Now he and Jerbs are both trying to use the pretty much ridiculous suggestion that scum were responsible for the daykill to protect Jerbs.

Point one, LlamaGod was pushing hard for the Agar' wagon, but as soon as its convenient, it becomes a counter-wagon to protect Jerbs. This is an incredibly convenient change of heart over a wagon that he was pushing.

Secondly, I never said that scum were responsible for the daykill, and when I called Llama out on this, he ignored me, and continued to try to line up my lynch for today. If he didn't read my post, he's scummy for not trying to figure out players alignments and if he read it but ignored it, he's scummy for not being honest about the arguments he's using.

Finally he makes it clear that he wants Jerbs to claim, asking him to in two posts in a row, I see this as possibly in game communication between scum buddies.

Vote LlamaGod

[Zdenek]

in other news, zdenek's 'case' on llamagod is just awful

Care to say why?

[Zdenek]

alot of seemingly pro-town things can come from scum since they are trying to emulate town, but this dosent mean that acting pro-town is scummy

I am not saying that acting pro-town is scummy, just that the way LlamaGod was acting protown can be scummy.

llamagod had to vote for one of them, and just happened to vote for scum. your point?

Read my post, I made my point a few lines down.

he doesn't. this is a good way for scum to get another mislynch, so llamagod was pointing out that this may be the case. he never said he 'knows' this to be the case

Do you think he would be stupid enough to say that he knows this to be the case? My point is that the statement was unqualified.

agar flipped town. this can lead one to come to these sorts of conclusions based upon interactions with other players. its not like he started pushing jerbs harder. agar was gone, so there was only one viable lynch at the time.

This is fluff and misses the point.

or he wanted jerbs to claim? what kind of communication could go on between them from jerbs claiming?

Why ask twice? (I am considering saying that we need Jerbs to claim is asking). Scum will ask their buddy to claim, in the hopes that they will get the message and fake-claim.

Rain, I think that most cases in mafia are riddled with speculation.

lol at RobCapone's meta read.

[Zdenek]

Yeah. I took a gap halfway through reading this game with no notes. Swap Tasky and Rob on my list of reads.

I've been lynched essentially for changing a read from town to null, and no one has anything to say about Empking swapping his reads two people on whom he had strong, opposing views?

Pappums, I don't know what game you're playing, but the specifics of what people say and do are important, and in your most recent response to my case on LG, you completely ignore the details of what is going on. It makes me feel as though you have no interest in determining LG's alignment and that you are only interested in arguing with me.

Vote Pappums

[Zdenek]

lohoooooolz. idk what game you are playing, mate. how exactly did i 'ignore the details of whats going on'?

Let's review:

alot of seemingly pro-town things can come from scum since they are trying to emulate town, but this dosent mean that acting pro-town is scummy

I am not saying that acting pro-town is scummy, just that the way LlamaGod was acting protown can be scummy.

llamagod had to vote for one of them, and just happened to vote for scum. your point?

Read my post, I made my point a few lines down.

he doesn't. this is a good way for scum to get another mislynch, so llamagod was pointing out that this may be the case. he never said he 'knows' this to be the case

Do you think he would be stupid enough to say that he knows this to be the case? My point is that the statement was unqualified.

agar flipped town. this can lead one to come to these sorts of conclusions based upon interactions with other players. its not like he started pushing jerbs harder. agar was gone, so there was only one viable lynch at the time.

This is fluff and misses the point.

or he wanted jerbs to claim? what kind of communication could go on between them from jerbs claiming?

Why ask twice? (I am considering saying that we need Jerbs to claim is asking). Scum will ask their buddy to claim, in the hopes that they will get the message and fake-claim.

Rain, I think that most cases in mafia are riddled with speculation.

lol at RobCapone's meta read.

1. its basically the same thing.
2. i read your post, including a few lines down, and i do not see your point. what was it exactly?
3. how is it unqualified? he was pointing out that this could be the case. there is nothing scummy about it.
4. no its not, that is the way i see things.
5. idk. maybe. i suppose it is a possibility. i dont see it though.

1. It is "basically the same thing" is basically my point. LlamaGod was trying to act townish by letting everyone know what the vote count was at, and he did it twice in a row. This is an easy thing to do and it is non-confrontational. Not every pro-town thing has these qualities, so these two things are not basically the same. I think that "trying to act townie" is a fairly reasonable scum tell, and I think that it is unreasonable to suggest that any two ways of acting townie are basically the same.

2. Here is my point:

Bussing a scum buddy, while pushing a townie lynch is a common scum tactic.

3. Go back and read LlamaGod's post, and show me where he qualified his prediction. Hint: he didn't. This is hardly the main point.

4. I disagree. I think statements like:

agar flipped town. this can lead one to come to these sorts of conclusions based upon interactions with other players.

is fluff because you are stating something that is obviously true.

[Zdenek]

LlamaGod is copying Empking to a point that I would say is ridiculous, and obviously scummy.

Vote: LlamaGod

Here are the relevant posts:

This is a primary reason I find it extremely likely one or both of Rob/Zdenek is scum.

LG states his reads.

Town
1.Robcapone
9. Rosswilliam

Leaning Town
10. Zdenek Dizzle
12. Ellibereth
7. Llamagod (FakeGod and Llamarble hydra)


Leaning Scum
11. Vigilante Ventriloquist Carrotcake
3. Rain Mute

Scum
8. Tasky - His change of heart regarding Jerbs ewhen Jerbs was lynched.
13. Pappums rat - Jerbs was busy distancing him.

Vote: Tasky

Empking states his: notice Rob is town and Tasky is scum.

Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, . . .

LG says that Rob has a town feel.

Yeah. I took a gap halfway through reading this game with no notes. Swap Tasky and Rob on my list of reads.

Empking changes his read on Rob to scum.

Oh this is really good, I didn't get it the first time. Rob claims he thought VP was bussing a buddy even before the lynch (implying a fair amount of certainty of scumJerbs) but didn't see any convincing case on Jerbs.
VOTE: Robcapone

LG follows suit.

Vote: Zdenek

Rob's last post screams town. Zdenek's on the otherhand scream bandwagoning, subtlly attacking scum.

Empking votes me.

Zdenek seems scummy due to being on the wrong wagons, attacking me today, not mentioning Rob when he's the main topic of discussion (hoping he'll get lynched instead, I'd guess), not mentioning Jerbs substantially yesterday, Jerbs' interaction with Dizzle looking like scum trying to get a buddy to post more...
I would believe Ellibereth/Zdenek/Jerbs since Ellibereth seems like the type to be fully willing to bus.
My other head thinks Elli is scum and is unsure about Zden; thinks he may be misguided town.
We need more RW here. He was caught either being wrong or lying and needs to explain himself and contribute more.
Unvote; vote ZDENEK

LG follows Empking again.

[Zdenek]

Uh, this
"Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, . . ."
Is a LAUGHABLY OBSCENE MISREPRESENTATION because in the rest of that post I make a case against Rob.
THE NEXT WORD AFTER THAT QUOTED BIT IS "BUT"

It's not a misrepresentation and the fact that the word but is irrelevant. I contend that you are changing your reads to match Empking's, but that you are not so stupid as to so severely alter your read on someone from scum to town in a single post.

[Zdenek]

BS!
You accuse me of finding Rob town on grounds of that post, quoting that line for "proof."
THE ENTIRE REST OF THAT POST IS A CASE AGAINST ROB, AND IT CONCLUDES WITH ME SAYING I FOUND IT REASONABLY LIKELY ROB WAS SCUM. EVEN THE REST OF THAT SENTENCE SAYS I FIND ROBS ACTIONS MORE CONSISTENT WITH SCUM THAN WITH TOWN. So how is "but" irrelevant???

You are trying to argue that at the time of this post I thought Rob was town and that I changed my mind after EmpKing posted, which is utterly false. And how would that be scummy anyway? Listening to other players' (especially townreads) ideas and taking them into consideration is part of playing well.

I think you were in the process of changing your reads to match Empking's, knowing full well that you couldn't do it in one post. That line at the beginning gives you an excuse in case anyone ever called you out on your changing your reads.

I am trying to argue that you are scum, who already knows Rob's alignment, and have chosen someone to copy reads from. I have seen scum copy reads from other players in the past, and I think you are doing it here, especially since you didn't call Empking out on his original set of reads which differed so much from yours or when he later changed them.

[Zdenek]

Where does "already knows Rob's alignment" come from??

It's in contrast to you saying that I am arguing that you thought Rob was town.

and the absurdity of accusing me of being a "read-copying-scum," (I've never heard of such a thing, unless you mean sheeping which I clearly have not been doing)

Here is an example:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14673
nopointactingup is scum, who I don't think I would say is sheeping, but who makes sure that he is in pretty close agreement with Simenon, a TP, for the entire game.

My post where I vote Rob after rereading Tasky's post literally comes the minute after Empking decides to flip his townread on Rob to a scumread.

This is not a contradiction to my argument. You could have easily had the response prepared in advance (and been grateful to be able to use it quickly), considering that it was in agreement with your earlier reads.

Fails to mention Jerbs in his "I just got here this is what I think" post when Jerbs was a primary lynch candidate.

At the time I entered the game, Jerbs had three votes on him, and was hardly a primary lynch candidate. He was only a primary lynch candidate after Agar was killed. Moreover there wasn't much to comment on.

All he says during the Jerbs wagon->lynch is essentially that "if the scum made the daykill then Jerbs is probably town."

I was asking VP about his reasoning about the Agar kill, which I found completely bizarre, and that statement is taken out of context. Note I never suggested that scum made the day-kill.

As far as the discussion about my first post is concerned. I said that I am going with null on the incident

in general

, meaning that independent of the details, I don't think such and incident says anything about the player's alignments; however, I think some of the particular details are important though. I was concerned about Ross because of his lack of interaction with Agar, who was pushing for his lynch.

[Zdenek]

Anyway, since there is no interest in lynching LG, I'm going to drop this subject after this post, but I still think my concern of him is warranted.

To respond to his last post addressed to me:

I still don't understand. - I don't see how that is possible, and view you asking this question as a scummy attempt to muddy the waters.

HAHAHA! I actually laughed out loud at this. You are now accusing me of being scum preparing differing statements in advance so that I can agree with a particular townie as necessary. WHAT POSSIBLE PURPOSE WOULD THIS SERVE??? - I am not accusing you of preparing differing statements in advance, I am accusing you of having wanted to respond to Tasky's catch, but then not responding to it when EmpKing stated having a scum read on Tasky, and then using that response after EmpKing revised his reads.

this is what made me decide to vote zdenek. the bolded words are just ridiculous and sound like flailing scum. zdenek has not been able to quell my suspicions that i have had on him, and his defence of himself just keeps putting him in a deeper hole. he is now at l-1 and i would like him to claim.

The last time I was called flailing scum, it was by Empking in KGB mafia, which just finished, and it was after I'd pointed out what I thought to be a scum slip and in fact turned out to be an attempt at in game communication between scum, so I don't hold these accusations of flailing in very high regard at the moment. I'm sorry that you disagree with me about LlamaGod, but I think he's scum. At the moment, Ellibereth has said that he wants a claim post Ross' replacement showing up, and if you all still want me to, I'll claim then.

I'll have time to re-read tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Tasky was already voting me, so that's not a hammer.

I'm a hider. I didn't hide behind anyone last night.

Ellibereth may very well be scum (i'd put her third myself) but so is Zdenek and with Zdenek its not just the active lurking but the scum based misquotings.

I don't think it's reasonable to characterize my play as active lurking, and the only thing you could possible call a misquoting is the thing about LlamaGod saying that Rob has a town feel, and frankly I don't think that's a misquoting even if you disagree that he was trying to change his opinions to match yours.