Mini 1122: Mafia.Exe Game Over

[Neruz]

VOTE: Ant_to_the_max for great justice!

[Neruz]

(double post!)

UNVOTE:
this game is gonna be easy, obv scum=bgg1996, GreyICE, DeathRowKitty

I'll (re)-place my vote in about 12-14 hours from now

That is a mighty big finger to be pointing this early don't you think?

why thank you, but really it's not the size of the finger that matters so much... wouldn't you agree?

Despite what you may think,

size

does matter.

[Neruz]

Your first post was a completely random vote that ignored everything happening in the thread and your next one is yet another waste of space avoiding commenting on anything happening in the game. Place a real vote, give a read, contribute in some way or die.

It's page 2,

nothing meaningful has happened in the thread.

[Neruz]

Given that scum has been caught in the first two pages of RVS before, yeah. Every single thing that happens is meaningful.

You realise that one of the three scum you 'caught' was

yourself?

[Neruz]

Given that scum has been caught in the first two pages of RVS before, yeah. Every single thing that happens is meaningful.

You realise that one of the three scum you 'caught' was

yourself?

I've read this like three times, and each time it becomes a tad more bizarre. What did you think you were saying when you posted this?

Hai guyz,

scumz is da guy who voted No Lynch

, da guy on LA, and da guy who hasn't confirmed and iz probs flakin. BB in 12 to see if which is the easiest target.

Vote: No Lynch

I thought i might have missed something, but that was the same post in which you voted Xine, soo...

[Neruz]

Oh, wait, that post was sarcasm.

Oh hey, suddenly all this Xine pressure makes sense. Wow i look dumb now.

[Neruz]

I apologise for not making sense, to make it up to you i will join the wagon and vote Xine on your behalf.

VOTE: Xine

Also because i dislike people who make dramatic declarations like that.

[Neruz]

If scum has been caught on day 1, why can't meta be used on day 3? Makes perfect sense! :B

[Neruz]

I

meant

page 3.

[Neruz]

Yay, someone other than me mistook sarcasm for serious

[Neruz]

Uh, what's wrong with using meta?

It's a bit early to be trying to work out inconsistancies (or consistancies) in someone's meta, especially considering most of what we have so far is RVS and therefore, well, RVS.

[Neruz]

Early claim is early.

Also; Hiraki, why do you keep poking Nathanael for ignoring you when you havn't actually asked him any questions?

[Neruz]

Meta is best used as a reason to justify initial suspicions. If someone is typically overaggressive while scum, then meta is a good reason to poke them a bit if they're being overaggressive in a game.

[Neruz]

I find it incredibly amusing that you accuse me of making throw away remarks since that vote, when you quote one of those throw away remarks and take it seriously.

I voted Xine because i didn't like his early sweeping declaration, as you would have noticed if you'd read and quoted the entire post instead of only the part that you felt like reading. I havn't said much of content so far because there hasn't been much to say. Hiraki and Nathanael appear to be having a little slap fight, bgg pulled an early claim that is either painfully newbie town or very clever scum. Llmarble makes a good point about the early L-2 Vote, but i'm getting more of a town vibe from bgg.

Xine, on the other hand, has gone into

massive

lurk mode, posting only twice in the last two pages and providing no content at all in any of her posts. Her last post, in fact, consisted of asking other players their experience. She has consistantly failed to respond at all to all the people voting her and appears to just be hiding and fervently hoping that if she ignores it hard enough, it will all go away.

Based on that and what i'm seeing from the rest of the players so far, i see no reason to move my vote. In most cases any questions or pokes i would have done, someone else got there before me, which is just par for being in Australia and thus out of synch with the rest of the western world timezone-wise.


Nice attempt at manufacturing a case on me though, i'll give you a point for trying.

[Neruz]

Ack, above post is talking to [Redacted] by the way. Forgot to quote him.

[Neruz]

I have more content than you Xine, in fact i think that's the first post from you that has any content or relevance to the game so far.

1) I'm not afraid to die

You're thinking about it wrong. I don't give a wooden nickle if you're afraid to die or not, i

do

care if you're afraid that the town will do somethin suboptimal. Lynching a town player is

bad

, it is to be avoided, because the town does not win by lynching the town.

Are you playing to win Xine? Because if you are, you're playing for a scum win.

[Neruz]

I guess that's a matter of opinion. a long day one is surly optimal for town. but I do like the way you think, hey everyone, let's go with Neruz's plan and lynch scum!

It's a good plan. I find it to be most effective.

[Neruz]

I'm getting a pretty strong town vibe from bgg. I don't really see any indication that what we see on the surface (a somewhat confused newbie) isn't what is actually there.

Barring him suddenly coming up with an elaborate ruse or plan or revealing deep and complex reasoning behind his actions, i'd say he's safe to dismiss as 'probably town' for now. We have plenty of free lynches yet if someone decides that he just must be an incredibly cunning scum running an elaborate scam.

[Neruz]

Lots of vote-hoppy, a couple of pertinent questions and a bit of nonsense.

I'm not getting a particulary strong scum vibe off the measly 6 posts he has made, the vote hoppy could indicate someone amusing themselves with the RVS, or it could indicate a scum looking for a wagon that sticks. The lurking could indicate a townie somewhat out of his depth or a scum hoping to avoid notice now that the Xine wagon has been located.

Reasonable chance of being scum, probably worth poking a bit, although Hiraki's attempts so far have met with consummate failure.

[Neruz]

The only things you should claim early is miller (always) and sometimes Paranoid Gun Owner (I guess, wouldn't mind some opinions on that one).

I've always personally been of the opinion that PGS should claim at 1 lynch before lylo. Although that risks town PR's getting killed by the PGS, that can partially confirm said PGS and there's always the chance that scum will hit him.

But you don't want him to wait until lylo because someone might target him the night before and then the town loses the game.


I'm not to hot on the Xine wagon anymore, Nathanael just confirmed his vote on Xine for her realising that bgg did do something rather scummy.

On the other hand, bgg is looking less and less newb town and more and more newb scum with every post. He does claim that he will come up with 'proof' that he is not scum after today, which sounds a hell of a lot like a PR softclaim, but i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see what this 'proof' is tomorrow. We can always lynch him day 2.

And on the gripping hand, Surprise_Carcinogen, My Milked Eek and Ant_to_the_max have all dived into lurker mode. Ant hasn't posted since the 13th.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ant_to_the_max for lurkery.

*Poke*

[Neruz]

It's the 15th for me, i'm Australian remember.

[Neruz]

You clearly have Nath covered my man; no reason to tunnel on anyone is there :3

[Neruz]

Neruz thinking "Is bgg softclaiming??" when bgg has already hardclaimed seems very odd to me as well.

Yeah, i know, but this:

I should come up with proof I'm not scum after today.

Sounds a hell of a lot like a PR softclaim. I don't see how a townie can come up with proof of innocence in a single night.

[Neruz]

You clearly have Nath covered my man; no reason to tunnel on anyone is there :3

But one vote won't make scum crumble and fold.

It's day 1, you're not trying to make him fold, you're trying to make him crinkle a bit around the edges. You poke him a little bit, find a crack or inconsistancy, poke a little harder, find some more cracks. If you find enough cracks and make a convincing case, you might get a few people to join you.

You don't apply pressure with the vote; the vote is to get his attention, you apply pressure with questions.


If it makes you feel any better, once i finish poking these lurkers i'll come back and join you with Nath, although marble is making a very convincing case against bgg. While i'm personally leaning more towards bgg town, i can see a possible reason to free lynch him just to get him off the table, since his situation is getting a little wifommy.

[Neruz]

I've never seen scum fold on Day 1 from anything less than a heated wagon on their face.

The purpose of the questions is to find cracks in the person's responses, scummy things you can point at and build a nice shiny case to convince people like me that you're right.

I'll be glad to vote Nath, if you can convince me he's scum.

[Neruz]

I've watched scum fold day 1 from the suggestion that there might be a day cop. Panic can set in quite quickly.

A day cop seems kind of unlikely in a Mini Normal, but then again a claimed day cop with a result on scum applies the same 'about to get lynched' pressure that a powerful bandwagon does, so my point stands.

And cases are frequently bullshit. You're as likely to catch scum from one post as you are from a big shiny case.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, as far as i can tell you've basically just said that there is no point looking for concurrant inconsistancies and errors in a person's play.

I don't recall ever calling Neruz town (and you linked the wrong thing anyway)

well, you keep buddying up to him like you knew for sure he is town.
faillink. I wanted to link this post.

DRK isn't buddying me, I'm conceding that the points he is making are valid and we're having some entertaining banter. Is there something wrong with having fun while playing a game?

If i was buddying DRK, i'd be agreeing with what he said and following his lead, which i am not. Every time two people agree on some points is not buddying.



Ant! Nice to see you, i'll keep the whole Monday\Thursday thing in mind. I would reccomend you at least try and post once every 24 hours, even if the post is "I'm really busy right now so i won't be able to post something useful until tomorrow." At the very least that ensures that we know you

are

there, just not able to respond right now.

I also see Surprise_Carcinogen is back, but My Milked Eek remains AWOL.

Pokity poke My Milked Eek, it's posting time.


Given all that, i shall UNVOTE: Ant_to_the_max and VOTE: Nathanael for reasons that i shall now explain.

Why exactly would it be a very bad thing for the town to lynch him now? I've heard plenty of reasons why my own reasoning was wrong, which I will grudgingly admit to, but I haven't heard much on the side of benefits to the town to leave him alive.

There is actually one perfectly good reason to not lynch bgg right now and that is this post;

I should come up with proof I'm not scum after today.

He has claimed that he will have proof that he is not scum after today. Therefore we should hold off lynching him today even if it is only to see what his proof is tomorrow. If he is unable to provide proof that he is not scum tomorrow then we will have a direct contradiction from him, which is a powerful scum tell.

Thus i shall vote Nathanael. I'm not quite sure he's the best lynch for today, but he's shaping up to be a pretty good one and is definitely better than bgg.

Nathanael's voting pattern concerns me. His first three votes are clearly RVS and should be treated as such, but his fourth vote for Xine came in after RVS was mostly over and was

blatantly

nothing more than hopping on a wagon. I'm also disliking his interactions with Hiraki and later DRK; he doesn't appear to actually be responding to questions posed to him so much as trying to deflect them away and his logic in a couple of answers (such as the reason why he feels voting No Lynch in RVS is scummy) is questionable at best.

He also seems far too attached to Xine being scum. No-one so far has given off anything that can definitively be said is a solid scumtell so far, there is little reason why town would be attached so strongly to one player. This is doubly suspicious because he only started voting Xine for the wagon, yet is now attempting to justify that vote. Vote first, justification later is a very typical scum move as it means that if no-one notices your vote, you don't have to justify it!

The deflections are really concerning me, every time i look at Nathanael's ISO i notice more places where instead of answering a quoted question, he deflected it with a question of his own.

Nathanael:

A question for you. Why,

exactly

, do you believe Xine to be scum? What are your reasons? What posts do you feel show scumtells from Xine and why? Please be specific.

[Neruz]

Wait, now you're saying you

won't

have proof?

If you cannot prove that you are not scum, why did you say that you could?

[Neruz]

UNVOTE: Nathanael
VOTE: bgg1996

If you cannot do something, do not say that you can. I dislike contradictions.

[Neruz]

Exactly, how could you possibly have hard evidence? So why would you say that you

should

have something you

cannot

have?

I was willing to wait until tomorrow to see this evidence of your non-scumminess, but now that you yourself have admitted that no such evidence or proof will exist, at least not from you, i no longer see a reason to wait.

[Neruz]

We have plenty of free lynches left, we can always lynch Nath if bgg does end up flipping VI.

[Neruz]

And just to clarify for anyone who wasn't paying attention, bgg is now at

L-1

[Neruz]

If someone does a thread check, they'll find me in several ongoing games, one in the mini theme forum, two in the mini normal forum that are ongoing.

Tell me about that again, Xine?

ok, I checked, you seem to be a good enough player and fun to be in a game with, but if you were trying to make some kind of point, I missed it.
what do you mean, tell you about that again? scroll back up and re-read my post.

on SC, she seems rather eager to follow other people's leads, and sheep votes

my vote is staying put, I still think it's in the best spot.

I like to stick people outside their comfort zone on day 1. It makes for interesting reactions. RVS is way too predictable nowadays.

In a related note, it has been my personal experience that the people who do this are typically scum. Admittedly my pool of evidence is not really large enough to draw a proper conclusion, but it is a point i feel should be made.

[Neruz]

People who play aggressively are typically scum... okay. I'm... unsure as to what to say to that.

My experience is scum usually lurk and are cautious.

No, people who push other players really hard on day 1 in an attempt to make them uncomfortable are,

in my experience

, scum. Typically i suspect this is because they are trying to make a town player slip up and give them some leverage.

There is no 'typical' scum play, you see all kinds, but i have very rarely witnessed a highly aggressive player on d1 being town. This may well be because of a skewed sample space, i'm not sure. I just thought it was something to think about.

[Neruz]

[Redacted]: Lurkers are a pet peeve of mine. It seems like every game i decide to -not- poke the lurkers somewhat frequently, they turn out to be scum coasting to victory.

[Neruz]

So tell me GreyICE; how would 'my experience' contain a game i was not in?

[Neruz]

So tell me GreyICE; how would 'my experience' contain a game i was not in?

I'm pointing out the observation was totally ridiculous.

And, since I'm bored and tired of this nonsense, you were in these two games, yes?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=11658
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15547

You'd call Nacho's play defensive in the first one?

Now compare it to the second, and compare the number of passive-aggressive attacks and fence sits he pulls in the second.

What are you even basing this meta on? If you say Parkie and Andrew, I'm just going to laugh.

Hm, actually i'd forgotten about that first game with Nacho. Oh well, call it knee-jerk paranoia to an ongoing game then.

I think you're really overreacting to this GreyICE; i just thought it was something to bring up, that i have often (although apparantly less often than i thought) seen early hyperaggression from scum. I wasn't attacking you or insinuating that you were scum, but your reaction to me seems way out of magnitude which leads me to think i might need to re-evaluate you.

[Neruz]

Neruz is defiantly putting himself on the line to defend bgg. this indicates to me that they are not scum together. GreyIce is very defensive, almost jumpy? I reiterate my willingness to hammer, should the vote swing that way.

Um. What? I'm trying to lynch bgg for blatant anti-town behaviour.

The instant he made this post:

Have fun at my funeral.
I'll let you know now, though, I will be laughing in my grave after the guy that you lynched because he claimed to be VT...
...Turns out to be a VT.

He lost all newb-town credit he had. That is not a newb-town post, that is a newb-scum post.

[Neruz]

Maybe it is just me, but does the town really (usually) learn anything from nightkills? Usually it is just "oh...there goes our <insert power role>" or "oh...there goes the most pro town person"

A lot can be learned from night kills, but it can also be very touch and go sometimes too. Usually 'smart' scum go for safe or obvious kills, but sometimes that can actually put them at a disadvantage, which can potentially lead to getting a lot of information out of very little.

A nightkill also eliminates a potential suspect so long as there are no confirmed townies on the table (and at this stage there arent).

[Redacted]'s post here is really good though. Enough contradictions there for me to feel better seeing him go

Um, for a start i've already refuted that post, for an end there are no contradictions there. Redacted is accusing me of distancing myself, not contradicting myself.

FoS: Ant_to_the_max

for a nonsense vote.

[Neruz]

Is greedling still playing?

Hm, good catch, i missed him entirely.

@Mod: Can we get a prod on Greedling?

He hasn't posted for what looks like 5 days.

[Neruz]

Two primary reasons: First you contradicted yourself by claiming that you would have proof of your innocence tomorrow, which you cannot provide due to your townie claim. Second for the aforementioned threats.
The rest of your play could also arguably be pointed to, but could swing either was as newb scum or town; it's the two main points that lead me to believe the scum side.

[Neruz]

a) why do you think I think you are scum? Yes, this is a serious question I'd like you to answer.

You don't. You think you can get a wagon going on me and lynch me.

b) I'd still like you to provide with the links to those questions I didn't answer you claim in post 160.

I'm not actually sure, i just did a quick ISO and all it revealed is that you havn't been posting much at all, it's been too long since i made that post. I suspect i was talking about the thing with you and Hiraki, as you basically spent most of your early interaction with him dodging his posts.

c) define "free lynch".

A free lynch is any day where lynching a town player does not lose the game for the town. Hence 'free'.

d) was there ever a moment you thought it could be a reasonable possibility that bgg had in fact the claimed "proof of innocence"?

I didn't know. I knew that he had claimed townie, but i left the possibility open to that being a fakeclaim to mask a power role. He claimed that he would have proof of his innocence the following day, and as there were other scummy players around i felt there was no reason to lynch him until he provided this proof. He later confirmed his townie claim and stated that because of that, he could not have proof of innocent, which removed my reason to not lynch him.

So to answer your question, i didn't know. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Neruz on why people being aggressive D1 are scum:

No, people who push other players really hard on day 1 in an attempt to make them uncomfortable are,

in my experience

, scum. Typically i suspect this is because they are trying to make a town player slip up and give them some leverage.

You're a retard, i've already gone over this. If you cannot be bothered to read people's posts then don't fucking play mafia.

Neruz on why he left the BGG and Nath wagons as they picked up speed even though he had been expressing suspcion of them.

Lurkers are a pet peeve of mine. It seems like every game i decide to -not- poke the lurkers somewhat frequently, they turn out to be scum coasting to victory.

Hurray for cognitive dissonance!

If this was real life Mafia i would actually punch you for being pants-on-head retarded right now.

cognitive dissonance

–noun Psychology .
anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves strongly of one of his or her habits.

A:

Nothing you quoted in those posts is contradictory or incompatible.

B:

So you've learned how to read minds now have you?

[Redacted] re-hashing old arguments and tacking on fancy words to make them suddenly look legit noted. Hello scumtell.

Neruz yet agian discussing theory rather then the game and still making sure that he distances himself from every statment he makes.

There is no 'typical' scum play, you see all kinds, but i have very rarely witnessed a highly aggressive player on d1 being town. This may well be because of a skewed sample space, i'm not sure. I just thought it was something to think about.

In a related note, it has been my personal experience that the people who do this are typically scum. Admittedly my pool of evidence is not really large enough to draw a proper conclusion, but it is a point i feel should be made.

How is this distancing myself? Seriously? This is me making a personal observation, a personal observation

that i myself admit is probably not accurate or reliable.

Did you fucking miss the part where i said,

right fucking there in the post you quoted

, that my pool of evidence was not large enough to draw a proper conclusion.

I'm aggressive towards Neruz we get musings about how aggresive D1 players are usually scum.

No, you only get that if you're scum looking for an easy lynch.

GreyICE catches Neruz lying during his musing about how people being aggressive D1 are scummy and how does Neruz respond?

Hm, actually i'd forgotten about that first game with Nacho. Oh well, call it knee-jerk paranoia to an ongoing game then.

I think you're really overreacting to this GreyICE; i just thought it was something to bring up, that i have often (although apparantly less often than i thought) seen early hyperaggression from scum.

I wasn't attacking you or insinuating that you were scum, but your reaction to me seems way out of magnitude which leads me to think i might need to re-evaluate you.

In future i will remember that i am not ever allowed to forget things or become predjudiced against them. I will be an emotionless robot who never makes mistakes. Beep beep boop you're a fucking retard beep.

[quote="[Redacted]I still disagree with a BGG lynch atm and will be making a post about DRK on Monday and then a general summary post about everyone hopefully Monday evening but it might be Tuesday morning before I can get it done.[/quote]

So wait, you had enough time to write all that about me, but not enough time to write something about DRK? Wow, i see you have a really convincing pile of bullshit here.

If bgg wasn't being even more retarded than you, i would be voting you right now.

HoS: [Redacted]

for obvious and blatant bullshittery.

[Neruz]

Bah, stupid broken quote tag. Can you fix that mod? Looks like another ] is needed after [Redacted] at the start of the line.

[Neruz]

In other words, yes I am stupid, but you still have to answer my stupid questions.

No, i don't. Hiraki has already pointed out how stupid you're being, if you like i can do the same; you're stupid, your 'question' is stupid. I have answered why i voted you and why i believe you to be scum already, in fact i'm fairly sure i've answered that stupid question twice now.

Also, if questions are stupid, that probably only means that the person asking them is stupid. Stupid people aren't any more likely to be mafia than smart ones, and while it may make it more likely that they are scum, it is not a good idea to suspect somebody based purely on how

"

f*cking retarded

"

they are being.

Mafia typically hide behind stupid questions because they have to make up their scumhunting. Mafia cannot actually scumhunt because they are the scum, therefore they have to

create

scumtells, which typically comes across as stupid and\or retarded questions, often re-hashing points that were already made and carefully laundering quotes so as to make their fabricated case look convincing.

I'm sick of your bullshit and i'm sick of [Redacted]'s bullshit. You clearly have no clue what the hell you're doing; to call you a newbie is an insult to newbies everywhere. Why you're playing this game and not learning how to play mafia properly in the newbie games i don't even know, but i suspect it may be because you are actually braindead and\or fucking with us. I don't know which and i don't care.

At this point i would actually lynch you even if i had incontrovertible proof that you were town, just so i don't have to read another one of your mind-numbingly stupid posts.

GreyICE, you might want to make your bandwagoning slightly less blatant. I know my explosion makes me look like an easy lynch right now, but it's going to look real shitty for you when i flip town, because that vote right there is so opportunistic it hurts.

I would scream at you for that bullshit about thinking aggression on day 1 is a scumtell, but it's clear at this point you've already decided what i said for me, and i'm all screamed out, so i'll just make it short and sweet.

Fuck you, scum.

[Neruz]

You would like me to change my play style to suit your opinions? No, I'm me, I play like I play.
you seem very emotional, especially when you are being scrutinized. bgg got pretty emotional at L-2, and now Neruz is getting emotional under scrutiny as well, then, you vote Neruz for...being emotional. Am I alone in finding this interesting?

My explosion has nothing to do with the votes and everything to do with running out of patience for the stupid bullshit pouring out of of bgg and Redacted.

[Neruz]

Now as to my Neruz vote, it's not because he's acting emotional. If he was the sort of player (Fate, whoever) who liked to fly into rages and stuff, yeah, that would be fairly typical. Okay, Fate has more style, but you know what I'm saying. Neruz, this entire game, has been eminently rational... until he's attacked. Then he starts screaming at his attacker and calling him names? Insulting his intelligence and belittling the case?

Go take a look at Mini 1107. I run out of patience with stupidity extremely quickly.

[Neruz]

For fucks sake, for the last fucking time i wasn't saying that aggresive play is anti-town, i was saying that my personal experience has been that

people who push other people outside their comfort zones

have tended to be scum, i said this because i believe that in general, pushing people outside their comfort zone generates just as many false positives as real positives, as people who are outside their comfort zone

are uncomfortable

.

When i think i've found scum, i latch on and push as hard as i can, i don't just float around pushing people to see how they react, which is just plain opportunism at it's finest.

You

are the one who decided that i was panning all aggressive play everywhere under all circumstances as anti-town, rather than making an observation that a specific kind of aggressive play has, in my personal experience, often come from scum players trying to make cracks in town players (by making them uncomfortable) which can then be blown up into fake scumtells to get them lynched.


I need to go listen to some waterfalls before i strangle something.

[Neruz]

Putting me outta my comfort zone is easy, just be bgg.

Okay, I still hate the bgg wagon. It just has gone too long without a counterwagon or counter push from anyone.

What the hell is this bullshit? Do you not see the counter-wagon

sitting on me right now

,

the one that you yourself joined a dozen posts ago?

[Neruz]

bgg only has 4 votes, i had the same until you pulled off. If there isn't a wagon on me, then there isn't a wagon on bgg. You don't get to have it both ways.

[Neruz]

At this point i would actually lynch you even if i had incontrovertible proof that you were town, just so i don't have to read another one of your mind-numbingly stupid posts.

I sincerely hope that you are kidding. Please, let you be kidding. Please tell me you are kidding.

I am not kidding, i believe that reading your posts may actually be causing me permanent brain damage.

If you honestly don't know why

threatening the town

is anti-town, then i don't know what to say, because i don't speak idiot.

Are you even going to answer these questions?

No.

Did you even read this post!?!

Also no.

I am afraid i blacked out half-way through reading the line that started with "The reason is because", i suspect this may be because you once again said something retarded about my claiming all aggressive play everywhere under all circumstances regardless of rhyme or reason was a scumtell and everyone who is ever even slightly aggressive in any way shape or form should be lynched immediately with no further questions asked, but as i have no memory of the incident i cannot be certain.

If my suspicion is correct, please apply a belt sander to your face with judicious force until all the stupidity, misplaced condescension and blood is removed from your system.

[Neruz]

If you are not going to answer my questions

[

Are you even going to answer these questions?

No.

even read my posts

At this point i would actually lynch you even if i had incontrovertible proof that you were town, just so i don't have to read another one of your mind-numbingly stupid posts.

I sincerely hope that you are kidding. Please, let you be kidding. Please tell me you are kidding.

I am not kidding, i believe that reading your posts may actually be causing me permanent brain damage.

ಠ_ಠ

[Neruz]

I don't know about that, Neruz has declared willingness to lynch someone he believes to be town to remove an annoying player. I thought the plan was to lynch scum, wasn't that your plan, Neruz? I've seen enough to have reached a decision
VOTE: Neruz

WHERE DID I SAY THAT? POINT ME TO THE LOCATION WHERE I STATED THAT I BELIEVE BGG TO BE TOWN!

You know what. Fuck bgg, this wagon isn't going anywhere because apparantly only a handful of people think that

threatening the town

isn't a scumtell.
That post, right there, from Xine, is nothing short of pure distilled scumhop. The fact that she had to

make up

something i said in order to justify voting me and the fact that what she did make up was so transparently bullshit leaves no room whatsoever for town motivation.

UNVOTE: Bgg
VOTE: Xine

You scummity scum scum.

[Neruz]

At this point i would actually lynch you even if i had incontrovertible proof that you were town, just so i don't have to read another one of your mind-numbingly stupid posts.

This is what she was referring to.

Yes, i know. Notice the part in that quote where i said i believed you to be tow-

OH WAIT I DIDN'T.

[Neruz]

You might have a point, but Xine goes on to say this:

I thought the plan was to lynch scum, wasn't that your plan, Neruz?

Which implies that i am currently going against that plan and voting someone i believe to be town just to remove an annoying player.

Which i am not.

What you're seeing here bgg is called

implication

, it's an extremely common and powerful scum tool and if you are town then you appear to have fallen right for it.


Unfortunately, i blacked out again while trying to finish reading the rest of your post. I suspect similar reasons to the last time.

[Neruz]

I honestly can't tell with bgg anymore. I'm finding it almost impossible to believe that he isn't an alt account that is just trolling this entire thread as there is a point where i am just no longer able to suspend my disbelief; we went past that point a short while back.

That post by Xine though, that i am familiar with. I've seen that kind of post many times before and it is always an extremely powerful scumtell: Look for the people who make up excuses to hop on the wagon, because there are your scum.

If you decide to answer my questions, depending on your answers, I will reweigh the evidence against you, and may decide that you are indeed town, given that there is evidence that you are, or lack of evidence that you aren't in your responses.

There are no questions in that post you idiot.

[Neruz]

When did i ever say i give enough of a shit about you to go looking for your damn questions.

If you want me to answer some questions, point to the questions, don't just go HERP DERP I THREATEN YOU WITH ANSWERING QUESTIONS OR I VOTE YOU and expect me to go looking for them. I don't care enough about your shit to do so.

[Neruz]

Why would newb-scum be more likely to make that post than newb-town?

Because threatening the town is anti-town.

With me claiming VT, what reason could you possibly have for believing that I had proof, regardless of what I actually said?

None, i should have just voted you for blatantly lying, but i decided to be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt. I have regretted that decision ever since i made it.

Did I ever re-hash points that were already made?

You've spent almost the entire game asking stupid questions, with the occasional not-so-stupid question thrown in through sheer luck. So you havn't had a chance to re-hash any points, because as far as i can tell you didn't make any until about half a dozen posts ago.

Did I ever launder a quote?

Nope.

Does that make me any more likely to be scum?

Yep.

Does that make it okay to lynch me?

Absolutely.

Do you have any other significant reason other than an over-exaggerated poorly-quoted eleven-word sentence?

Obviously not.


Consider yourself humoured, enjoy it because i won't be doing it again.

[Neruz]

Why do i get the feeling that the bgg who posted this:

Also, if I'm not mistaken, this will be the first time I've actually played as a vanilla townie. (In my more inexperienced games, all of the roles had an ability)
Good luck using meta on me.

And the bgg who posted this:

That's what you get for trying to be nice in a game of mafia.
In mafia you have to think logically. You cannot merely trust people on a whim, excepting some subconscious feeling of general scumminess, you have to weigh the odds and decide rationally which is good and which is bad.
Do you have a disorder that makes you misunderstand people?

Are two entirely different people?

For the last time, there is a big difference between have hard evidence and come up with proof.

*COUGH COUGH*

proof

–noun

1.

evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true

, or to produce belief in its truth.

—Synonyms

1.

confirmation, demonstration, corroboration, support.

See evidence

. 3. examination, assay. 18. firm, steadfast.

*COUGH*

[Neruz]

Neruz. What do you mean in #355?

Like with the two different people. I'm not getting what you mean.

I'm not

completely

sure myself. The first few pages of the game, bgg came across as unbelievably stupid with a light dash of newbie. Now i'm getting a lot less blind idiocy out of his posts and a lot more newbie; maybe i'm just overthinking things, but it really does feel like bgg's swapped out for a different person half-way through the day.

Either that or he's an alt who was fucking with us.

Sorry,

have

and

come up with

was what we were looking for.

Makes no difference; as a townie you

cannot

provide evidence or proof of your alignment. So it is literally meaningless to nitpick on the have or the come up with parts, because

both

are lies.

[Neruz]

Interestingly, i decided to take a look at Newbie 807, bgg's other game. I'm not getting a whole lot out of it, but i do think it's interesting to note that in that game, as scum, he quickly put someone (CDB) to L-2 during RVS with no explanation for his vote and later backtracked hard on it, providing a whole bunch of reasons when pressured about it.

Obviously this might just be how bgg plays regardless of alignment, but it is probably worth keeping in mind for future days if he survives.

[Neruz]

It's gonna take you a looooong time at this rate MME. Better speed things up if you want to catch up and not be behind the whole game.

[Neruz]

Dunno about MME or SC, but i'm pretty sure there's at least one scum in Xine, Redacted, GreyICE and Nathaniel. bgg comes off as scum in one post, and town in the next so i'm not sure what to do with him anymore.

[Neruz]

Um, yeah, i'm with GreyICE on this, at the very least even i can see that your 1(A+B) is wrong; my name is mentioned in the scummy section explaining why Xine is scummy; because she is wagoning on me. He then goes on to add that Xine is also scummy because she expressed willingness to hammer GreyICE in this post.

2 is silly; although Xine putting Greedling as scummy is also silly; Greedling has lurked far too hard for anyone to have any reads on him whatsoever. Lynching him for lurking would be 100% fine, but declaring his alignment based on the two posts he has made is rediculous.

3 just sounds like you're whinging about a lack of explanation.

4 is more lack of explanation.

5 is yet more lack of explanation.

6 is discussing bgg. Nothing more needs to be said at this point in the game.


So considering half of the points of contention you brought up were due to Llmarble not going into an in-depth explanation of his choices, but only

certain

choices (i note you didn't demand an explanation for why GreyICE is town, or Redacted is unsure etc etc), one was blatantly incorrect, one was reacting to a lurker and one was bgg, that entire post you just made Hiraki looks to be even more contentless than the one you quoted.

I might even go so far as to say that entire post is a waste of text. All you've successfully done is point out that Llmarble didn't explain every single one of his reads, which is pretty normal for that kind of 'these are my reads on everyone' post.

[Neruz]

I take it inredibly personally; you have gravely insulted me sir. I am throwing down the gauntlet and challenging you to a duel! Choose your weapons.

[Neruz]

Honestly, i'm about 40% sure that bgg is an alt account trolling the game. I cannot explain his actions as anything else.

[Neruz]

Nreuz

Is my name

really

that hard?

[Neruz]

Not really Naruz, I get it right every time.

HA. You spelled it rong!

icwatudidtheire

[Neruz]

I do believe you are scum.

And i don't believe that.

What is the support against against Xine? Or at least, where can I find it.

His vote on Neruz is pretty awful, especially his reasoning.

Not to mention, his lack of activity after that vote isn't too extraordinary either. But that's a small tell, the big emphasis is that vote.

Xine's a 'she'

[Neruz]

I'd probably have to take it to a coinflip if the mod confirmed bgg as town.

[Neruz]

Dunno how our esteemed moderator is going to handle the deadline, but it does look a bit like we're going to hit a no lynch.

I also don't think it's even remotely coincidental that Nathanael, Xine and bgg are all on my wagon.

[Neruz]

I also don't think it's even remotely coincidental that Nathanael, Xine and bgg are all on my wagon.

what exactly are you trying to say here?

I'm trying to say that i am extremely sure at least one of, and possibly two of the three i mentioned are scum.

[Neruz]

Clearly i was really unclear about what i meant, despite repeatedly clarifying.

What i'm distinguishing between is just pushing everyone and seeing who falls over, and pushing players who you believe to be scum. Hence my comment about distinguishing between different types of aggression; what GreyICE (i think it was GreyICE) was doing looked and sounded like he was just opportunistically pushing people outside their comfort zone to look for cracks he could hold up as scum tells; a tactic i very commonly see from scum in leiu of actual scumhunting because it looks like scumhunting at a glance.

At least, i'm pretty sure that's what i was trying to say, it's been ages since i made that post.

[Neruz]

Yeah sorry Neruz, I know you've been over that point before, but I'm trying to understand your relationship with GreyIce. In my readthrough, you accuse GreyIce of basically being really suspicious and bandwagony after they vote for you, and then when GreyIce at the slightest provocation unvotes you and then jumps on Xine, you seem to more or less just let it go. This is back around page 12 or 13. I don't see how GreyIce's vote for Xine, at that point in the game, was less suspicious really than their vote for you. That, combined with GreyIce's refrain that, without explanation, they think you're innocent has me very concerned that, even if you're not a mafia team, GreyIce was trying to play you by poking you, clearing you, then trying to get you on their team (which seems to have happened, with your vote on Xine over, basically, what I take to be a misunderstanding).

You'd have to ask GreyICE why he thinks i'm town; i would assume it was my angry explosion that did it.

I havn't dropped GreyICE entirely, but i feel that both Xine and bgg are better scum candidates at the moment.

I'm not sure why you keep referring to GreyICE in plural though.

I guess I am the failure kitten in question. I think Xine actually had a fair point in critiquing Neruz for what he said and the direction his posts were going. It was starting to look like his vote and critiques for bgg were coming more out of sheer rage, which would certainly be anti-town, if not downright scummy. That being said, I can still see why there was a backlash on Xine, considering what bgg has done this game that, if not justifying Neruz's position on bgg, certainly made his position sympathetic.

Part of it was and still is; that is the only reason i am not voting bgg right now. I recognise that a lot of the problems i have with him are shrouded in my dislike for him and thus my judgement is clouded. I personally still think he's either a VI or an alternate-account troll, either of which makes him an excellent candidate for a free lynch and i will gladly join the wagon if the deadline looms and Xine's wagon isn't going anywhere.

It is the contradiction between bgg's early play and his current play which leads me to consider the alt-acc troll possibility, which honestly looks more and more likly with each post he makes.

[Neruz]

Yeah, it was the 'they', if you're going to include Llmarble in something, make sure his name is in there too, since the paragraph made no mention of him, the 'they' is both incorrect and wierd.

[Neruz]

Typically if i quote a post, that's the post i mean

[Neruz]

Link me to at least two games you played where this tactic was used by the scum team.

That may be rather difficult, due to the vast majority of my games being on IRC.

[Neruz]

Come on Xine, you're not bgg, stop acting like him.

[Neruz]

I'm getting more of a high vibe than a drunk vibe from her.

Alternately, she's just decided to be crazy today.

[Neruz]

Why has everyone i know suddenly gone insaner than usual? Is there something in the air?

[Neruz]

and for some reason, before I typed that, I thought you'd believe the first was more likely >.< Damn it.

Heh, this actually made me laugh


Not sure about Krazy and i'd have to do a read of MME and Ant, none of those three players have done anything to really get my attention, which probably indicates they're lurking a bit.

[Neruz]

With the exception of Krazy who's just too new to the game to have any solid reads on yet.

[Neruz]

Yeah, i know, you said you were going to do a gut read, so you did a gut read.

Gut reads can be handy to start with, but you need a little more than that to get votes

[Neruz]

...

Ok, if you're a Rena alt i will be a sad Neruz.

[Neruz]

Since when was Frog a woman?

[Neruz]

Since it said Gender: Female under your name and you claim to be Frog, who was male last time i checked. ._.

[Neruz]

Treacherous amphibians are no buddies of mine!

[Neruz]

Well, scum do lie, and you are apparantly guilty of LIES AND SLANDER.

Therefore i shall put you down as a 'maybe'.

[Neruz]

You lied about your gender, evil conniving frog that you are. I should have known!

[Neruz]

I'm pretty sure this entire page and a small chunk of the last one was not game-relevant.
A quick glance over your ISO doesn't seem to have anything jump out at me. The friction with GreyICE is the only noteworthy thing that really struck me, and i remain unsure as to his alignment.

Atm, i'd say you're more town than scum, but no strong reads either way.


I'm not sure about Krazy, my gut seems to be really suspicious of him; something about the way he's been going so far strikes me as scummy, but i can't put my finger on exactly what.

[Neruz]

Nah i'm pretty sure none of that is game-relevant. The drunk parts

might

be, but that's a big might.

[Neruz]

Yes, you should.

[Neruz]

drk=town

An excellent and informative post that clearly indicates both your opinions and why you are not scum.

[Neruz]

Alright, so in order to clear up confusion, [Redacted] is being replaced by himself!

Hehehe.

[Neruz]

You know what, i'm not going to rise to the bait this time. This time i am goint to calmly ignore you completely.

[Neruz]

I am saddened by the fact that Xine apparantly needs bgg to make extremely bad posts in order to justify her vote upon me. Getting desperate are we?


And no bgg, 2. is not a contradiction. 2 is me pointing out that i dislike you so intensely i would actually play against my win condition to remove you from the game if the opportunity arose. It is a remark unique to you and completely seperate from the rest of the game. The same is related to 1.
Yes bgg, i actually dislike you so much i am willing to waste a perfectly good lynch on ensuring i never have to speak to you ever again.

3. i have already gone over so many times it's starting to cause me pain. I don't know how you managed to do an ISO of me and miss that entirely, unless it was deliberate of course.

I was referring to the comment about me saying that you would all cry.

This comment does not exist, anywhere, you made it up to make yourself look good. I find it more than a little suspicious that you managed to do an ISO of me and

still

had to make shit up to support your case.

5. Made me giggle :3

[Neruz]

Ok.

So how exactly does a quote from Surprise_Carcinogen apply to me?

[Neruz]

I never even quoted that post, in fact i'm pretty sure i never even referenced it. The word 'cry' does not appear in any of my posts, inside or outside of a quote.

If bgg was doing a big casey ISO thingy on S_C, i could understand the cry thing, but i fail to see what it's doing in a casey ISO thing on me, considering as far as i can tell it is pretty much entirely unrelated to me.

To conclude; what Hiraki said.

[Neruz]

What I ACTUALLY said was that Neruz quoted the actual post, and said that it was threatening town, which he did do.

No. No i didn't.

I have quoted S_C exactly precisely once, in #160, and it was not that post.


So, i repeat: What exactly does that post have to do with me and why are you referencing it in the big casey ISO thing?

[Neruz]

Yeah, i'm still not seeing it. The 'I will be laughing in my grave after the guy that you lynched because he claimed to be VT... ...Turns out to be a VT.' line is pretty much a textbook example of a passive-aggressive threat and Appeal to Emotion. Which was already established.

And isn't what i was asking.

Allow me to clarify further:

(Also notable is that somebody (I forget who) said that I said “You are going to cry at my funeral.” (Neruz quoted the real post and declared it threatening town) I did not. I said that I was going to laugh.)

Why is this in the casey ISO thing about me?

[Neruz]

I vote me.

[Neruz]

I'm not playing the game, so it's rules don't apply to me.

[Neruz]

Is it just me, or are you and Xine consistently defending each other?

[Neruz]

He's trying to lynch Xine at the moment, but i wouldn't say he's tunneling her.

She might be defending me to buddy me, so that you lynch me after you lynch her.

I'm pretty sure that implies you think Xine is scum.

[Neruz]

I'm mostly voting Xine for a combination opportunistic votes, poor reasoning and lurking which just screams scum.

[Neruz]

Well, to be fair, the poor reasoning is mostly related to her desperate attempts to justify her opportunistic vote.

[Neruz]

And she is lurking; a sort of wierd mixture of real lurking and active lurking. It's also worth noting that she was the third vote on the bgg wagon and the fourth vote on my wagon with extremely poor justification and she herself outright admitted that she lurks.

Also, bgg keeps defending her despite all this, i'm not sure exactly what it means, possibly that bgg is scum and is hoping to score some town cred if we lynch Xine and she flips town, but it's definitely worth keeping in mind.

Got a few other lurkers too, it seems like awhile since we last heard from TBM and Krazy has gone all lurky as well, which is

extremely

suspicious as he got off to a pretty solid start, jumped on the bgg wagon and then that was the last game-related info we heard from him.

[Neruz]

Got a few other lurkers too, it seems like awhile since we last heard from TBM

...Uh-huh that special kind of lurking where I post at least every 48?

it seems like awhile since we last heard from TBM

it seems like awhile

seems

seems

[Neruz]

You know, 24 pages on Day 1 is pretty crazy now that i think about it.

[Neruz]

I do believe you are scum.

And i don't believe that.

Ok, I'd really like if you stopped dodging my question:
I believe you are scum (this is a fact). Knowing this, why do you think I believe you are scum?
I'll tell you more: I believe Hiraki is scum with you.
Why do you think I think he is scum?
And I'll add one more question: why don't you believe I believe you are scum?

Nath, shouldn't you be, I dunno making a case against Hiraki etc. rather than letting the people you accuse make your case for you?

It's easier for scum to let other people do their work for them, he thinks asking these questions makes him look like he's cleverly scumhunting (He's not).


Wow, actually, i just ISOed Nathanael. Not only does he have a fairly low number of posts, but

he never actually made a case on me.

He made a case on both Xine and bgg when he seriously voted them, and even made something on GreyICE when he voted him, but he voted me at the end of his post, as sort of an afterthought.

He listed me as Null #156 and then went ahead and voted me in a PS in #272, prompting me to make his case for him.

His next post at #399 is even better, since he claims that he based all his scum reads on his town read with bgg, and he lost that town read and now has to rethink his scum reads.

Notice how despite that, he still thinks i'm scum. In fact the only part of his read that actually changed was that he feels Xine is no longer scum and Hiraki is null.

Yes, you heard me right, in his 'updated' list, he lists Hiraki as null with bgg.

Notice how his next post promptly accuses Hiraki of being scum with me.

Notice how Nathanael

still

has not provided any case or reasoning on me. Or Hiraki. And the only thing he's provided for his reasoning as to why S_C is so scummy is #184. Apparantly stating that bgg was flailing a bit and overdoing it is incredibly scummy and grounds for being third on Nathanael's list.


I'm surprised i missed all this, Nathanael managed to successfully fly below my radar, Xine has

nothing

on Nathanael.

UNVOTE: Xine
VOTE: Nathanael

So Nathanael. Since i've told you why i think you're scum, how about you tell me and everyone else why you think i'm scum. While you're at it, explain why you think Hiraki is scum too. Or would you rather dodge this by asking a pointless question?

[Neruz]

How the hell can you not be in the phase where you convince people that someone is scummy. We're at page 24 already, while it is still Day 1, we have 24 pages of content (well, probably closer to 20 if you remove the sillyness) and you're still 'uncertain'?

Be more wishy-washy and fence-sittery please, it makes you look worse.

[Neruz]

Why is Nathanael a stupid lynch? From where i'm sitting he looks like a damn fine bet for scum.

[Neruz]

I'm not seeing that at all; i'm seeing someone who refuses to state a case on the person he is voting, instead trying to look 'smart' by providing little tidbits and asking questions as if he's pretending to be some sort of intelligent mentor figure leading his protege to the correct answer and then wussing out and claiming it's all uncertain and he's still trying to find out who the scum is when called on it.

"I think you're scum, now you tell me why i think that." Is really rediculous and i'm actually annoyed at myself that i missed that earlier and just put it down to Nathanael trying to be clever, i was half right; it -is- clever, but it's clever scum, not clever town.

[Neruz]

I mean

seriously

, look at #592, that is

such

a blatant cop-out. "Oh i'm not making a case on the person i'm voting because i'm not sure who's scum."

[Neruz]

Notice how despite that, he still thinks i'm scum. In fact the only part of his read that actually changed was that he feels Xine is no longer scum and Hiraki is null.

Yes, you heard me right, in his 'updated' list, he lists Hiraki as null with bgg.

Notice how his next post promptly accuses Hiraki of being scum with me.

______________

Scum -> Neruz=Hiraki>PR (since he replaced S_C)=Xine>bgg=Llama>Krazy=A_t_t_M=MME>TBM=DRK=GreyICE <- Town

He lists Hiraki with you..... at the top of the list.

I was talking about his second list in #399, which i linked in the post you quoted. Please ensure you actually read the reference material so you know what's going on and don't say something stupid.

I'm not seeing that at all; i'm seeing someone who refuses to state a case on the person he is voting, instead trying to look 'smart' by providing little tidbits and asking questions as if he's pretending to be some sort of intelligent mentor figure leading his protege to the correct answer and then wussing out and claiming it's all uncertain and he's still trying to find out who the scum is when called on it.

"I think you're scum, now you tell me why i think that." Is really rediculous and i'm actually annoyed at myself that i missed that earlier and just put it down to Nathanael trying to be clever, i was half right; it -is- clever, but it's clever scum, not clever town.

Don't make me make a case why he's town, you'll annoy me and I hate making cases someone is town. I didn't have to make one for Mafuyu, don't make me break my streak. 592 is town.

I'm sorry GreyICE, i'm just not seeing Nathanael as town.

[Neruz]

Yes, Krazy hasn't exactly been asking the best questions, but at least he explains the reasoning behind his actions.

Why does he need to hand out information about how he thinks and how he catches scum? That helps the scum.
Why does he need to make a case on why someone is scum? Once he knows who scum is, he assumes the logic will be clear to everyone else.

This is just terrible. If we operate like this it becomes

impossible

to scumhunt because scum can just vote someone and then reasonably expect everyone to not question them at all because the logic should be clear to everyone else.

I have made it apparant that the logic is not clear to me, and the logic obviously isn't clear to you either, because you think i'm town but Nathanael thinks i'm scum. So you're actually contradicting yourself there GreyICE.

[Neruz]

Jesus christ i hate this game.

[Neruz]

I'd support a Krazy lynch; i thought something about his play didn't sit right with me and this day has gone on

way

too long already.

[Neruz]

Jesus christ what the hell is going on now.

[Neruz]

Wait now bgg is admitted that he deliberately tried to appear 'newbish' because he didn't want to die?

I.. Words escape me...

[Neruz]

Hey!
That's not the only reason!
And it's not like I deliberately played badly or anything. Also, by appearing to be a bad player, assuming the mafia Nks the smartest one, I'd be pushing somebody stupider to die in my place.

And didn't I already tell you all of this? Or at least that part.

[Neruz]

I havn't said anything because i have nothing to say, beyond the fact that Mute has also successfully managed to look incredibly scummy and Nathanael has cemented my belief of his scummitude with his last post.

Apparantly i'm destined to have absolutely no town reads this game, but then again it's still Day 1 so who fucking knows.

[Neruz]

I'd be alright with either a Xine or bgg lynch,

possibly

a Krazy or Mute lynch, but that would be dependant on their reactions to being wagoned.

[Neruz]

Well, y'know, we won't get those reactions without actually wagoning them....

So go wagon them, there's thirteen people in this game, you don't need me for the wagon. I'm quite comfortable voting Nathanael for now.

[Neruz]

The hell was that?

[Neruz]

If GreyICE is casting me as a Paladin then he's on some serious shit and needs to cut the rest of us in.

[Neruz]

Dude, Krazy, we all worked out

very early

that bgg is pants-on-head retarded and anti-town, but for whatever reason the rest of the town doesn't seem to be sufficiently interested in removing him to do so, and Xine somehow actually thinks that lynching him is not a good idea at all which is patently absurd.
So bgg confirming that he was

deliberately

playing badly and was thinking of nothing more than self preservation and basically playing a classical scum game with an insane twist is merely icing on the cake at this point.

Good luck getting this town to do anything other than froth at the mouth and flail wildly at the walls.

[Neruz]

That reminds me, hypothetically, have the cops had a chance to investigate yet?

fgsfds

[Neruz]

why are you so stupid?

[Neruz]

GENTLEMEN I HAVE DECIDED THAT BGG IS SCUM, THEREFORE WE SHOULD VOTE XINE BECAUSE THE SCUM WONT EXPECT THAT AND WILL HAVE NO PLAN TO COUNTER IT.

also nathanael is fuzzy, fuzzzy

[Neruz]

Fuck you and your vig bait GreyICE. We're lynching him,

now.

I've had it up to here with his shit and i'm sick of it.

bgg1996
This lynch
All votes
Final Destination

VOTE: bgg1996

[Neruz]

bgg is throwing up a massive smoke screen, at this point i honestly don't care what his alignment is; i

cannot

play properly with him in the game. Almost every time he posts i'm sent careening off into nonsense and i start uselessly questioning everything i know.
bgg is a liability to the town regardless of his alignment and the sooner we get rid of him, the better. If his play wasn't so blatantly anti-town i would just write him off as a VI and ignore him, but he's making that pretty much impossible and every now and then he does something which proves that he

isn't

a VI and is just pretending to be one, which is not only incredibly scummy but is also incredibly anti-town.

He's admitted to deliberately acting like an idiot so as to protect his own skin, that's more than scummy enough for me even without the rest of the anti-town nonsense.

[Neruz]

Good, we can lynch them all tomorrow, after we've gotten rid of bgg and i can concentrate on this game without having my thought processes derailed twice a page with crap like #726

[Neruz]

Never heard of a 1-shot PGO before, different, but at least you claimed at the right time.

[Neruz]

Oh well. Second scum now most likely Neruz because of my brain turning back on

So where's the vote then?

[Neruz]

VOTE: Krazy

If Krazy flips scum, i am 100% ok with you trying to lynch me tomorrow GreyICE, if he doesn't, we'll know you're scum. Both of you are pretty good candidates, but you've got a more convincing case; Krazy's roleclaim is

way

out of place for a cop claim and is suspicious in and of itself.

[Neruz]

It has not been my experience that town cops typically out themselves after their very first guilty inspection unless a doctor is known to be in the game. Claiming your inspect results at the end of the day if it looks like things are going against you or if you are trying to kick your wagon into gear are very typical town cop acts, claiming a guilty right at the start of the day and then letting everything ride on that is, again in my experience, a scum play, not a town play.

The other thing going against you is the way GreyICE has tied you to me; it'd be a really dumb move on his part if he were scum, much dumber than i know GreyICE to be as a player, but it's right up his alley for crazy town gambits.

[Neruz]

"if he flips scum, go ahead and lynch me!"

Try reading again marble, i said that i'm fine with GreyICE

trying

to lynch me.

[Neruz]

Huh. If Xine is scum, then Neruz is almost certainly not, because I cannot believe that we got two scum wagons to 5 votes, that just never goddamn happens.

Dear lord do I owe this game a readover now that I don't have to make pants-on-head reads and get at least one vote by end of day.

Yes Grey, you do. Game is now srs bsns, off with the pants hat and on with the srs hat.

[Neruz]

Don't like him very much at ALL.

So, that's where I am. I'll warn you all though, I have never ever successfully called a scumteam on day 1, and I doubt I did it here, even with two flips to help me.

I'm pretty sure this is an inverse form of the 3 for 3 fallacy there Grey

[Neruz]

Bullshit TBM is town, if Krazy flips scum, TBM just became my no.1 choice for scumpartner.

[Neruz]

One-shot is not a modifier allowed in normal games.

Paranoid-gun owner is not a role allowed in normal games.

This is just flat out wrong.

#

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

* Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
* Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
* Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
* Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
* Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
* Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
* Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).

...

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Non-Sane Cops, Blanks/Quacks, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Scum Masons, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.

One-Shot and Paranoid Gun Owner do not violate

any

of those rules. The fact that you managed to link to the wiki page in question

and still get it wrong

is pretty impressively bad.

[Neruz]

And Krazy, if you thought GreyICE's claim was impossible in the ruleset, why didn't you, oh i don't know,

call him out on it

instead of trying to hold it back like some kind of trump card?

Seriously, every post you make makes you look worse and worse.

[Neruz]

Also also; in Normal games there is allowed be one new or variant role,

however

i cannot see how PGO would be considered either 'new' or 'variant' as it's a very well known role, even if it was considered 'new', normal games can still have one new role in them.

So basically Krazy, your entire point about Grey's claim is complete nonsense. Flail harder.

* Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.

"with the exception of missed night chances" != "death by targeting a random player"

No Krazy, random elements means things like 50% modifiers. If PGO was not allowed, it would be listed as a role that is explicitly not allowed, it is not.

If there was a PGO, I feel like it would almost certainly have to have been revealed at game start.

You can feel like that all you want, but the rules do not require it.

And Neruz, what if GreyIce REALLY WAS a doctor? Should I call him out on his fake-claim just to draw attention to the fact that HE WAS IN FACT A DOCTOR?

What. The. Fuck.

Standard town logic would conclude that if a player lies about his roleclaim he is probably scum and at the very least should be investigated for it. If GreyICE

claims an impossible role

you absofuckinglutely call him out on it.

[Neruz]

Actually, i can clear this issue up immediately:

@Mod: Is the Paranoid Gun Owner role allowed in Normal Games?

[Neruz]

You know Krazy, if you'd just stopped talking and gone into hard lurker mode, you'd look

less

scummy than you do now.

This is going to be great for us after this lynch, because we'll probably be able to find your scumbuddies fairly easily by looking for the players who desperately attempted to distance themselves from your sinking ship, which is also on fire and being invaded by aliens.

[Neruz]

Jesus christ GreyICE is psychic.

[Neruz]

Now you're just being desperate, i know you're not stupid enough to think that was the intent behind that post, but by all means keep pretending you are; it makes you look worse.

[Neruz]

And Xine is no.2 chocie for scumbuddy.

Krazy, TBM, Xine is looking

really

good right now.

[Neruz]

Putting Krazy at L-1 isn't such a good idea since he can just selfhammer right now, killing discussion for the day and preventing us from accurately locating scum.

[Neruz]

Krazy: If you were

really

a cop, you'd be going after GreyICE, trying to lynch him. If later in the game you then died and flipped cop, we'd then be able to tell that you had a guilty on GreyICE due to the fact that you were attempting to lynch him.

But you didn't want to do that, because you know you won't flip cop.

[Neruz]

Also:

EBWOP: I died the night I got the guilty, since on re-read that was not clear.

This actually goes against your point; it doesn't matter if you immediately out guilties or not if you die on the same night that you get the result. Derp.

[Neruz]

You wait until it looks like things are bad or you have 2 guilties because there is no point outing yourself as a power role any earlier than neccessary. By outing yourself as a PR the way you did, if you were a Cop (you're not, but lets run with this for a sec) then the absolute best-case scenario is we trade 1 Cop for 1 Scum. Which is an alright trade, but could be

waaay

better.

Your entire play this day looks pretty much exactly like scum trying to pretend to be a Cop and doing what you think a Cop does without understanding why a Cop acts the way a Cop acts. Every post you make cements that appearance more and more; you're more interested in looking like a Cop than playing like a Cop.

[Neruz]

Why take that risk? You lose

nothing

by not taking that risk, so what you're claiming is that as a town PR, you took a completely unneccessary risk for no gain at all. Yeah, Town PR's do that all the time.

[Neruz]

Actually I came out on the hope that there was a doc in the game

And this is exactly why your claim is both bad and unbelievable.

[Neruz]

In fact, because this is annoying and starting to sound like bgg, allow me to point out exactly why your thought process is crap.

There is PROBABLY a doctor/protective role in this game

You cannot know this. In fact you have absolutely zero evidence to support this conclusion. So you're making this up.

If I do not out, I might be night-killed

Not a problem. Roles reveal on death remember?

If I out too late, it might come off as a desperate fakeclaim

Claiming early is

significantly

more suspicious than claiming later. Like, massively more suspicous.

However

, from the perspective of a scum player pretending to be a cop, i could absolutely see why you might come up with that thought process to justify your actions, which is exactly why you are currently the lynch target.

[Neruz]

mute wrote:

...Again, I call your attempt at bussing me. ...

hmmm....

Ooh, good catch.

[Neruz]

He seemed to understand the heart of the problem with me announcing my role fairly quickly,

but nevertheless wanted me to just stop talking for a while.

Wat.

[Neruz]

[Scum gambiting a cop claim to get you lynched would make sense if your PGO claim was true as they would have to trade one for one to kill you and by gambiting they get a mislynch and a one for one. However for your story to work they need to have roleblocked you, thus disproving your PGO status, there is absolutely no reason for them to initiate a one for one.

I've read this paragraph four times now and it still doesn't make any sense.

[Neruz]

BTW Mute voting me while thinking Krazy is fakeclaiming makes NO townsense.

Eh, convinced right here.

Vote: Krazy

What does the quote have to do with the vote?

The quote suggests strongly that Mute is scumbuddies with Krazy, because if Mute thinks Krazy is fakeclaiming, then he thinks Krazy is scum,

so why is he voting Llmarble?

[Neruz]

Oic, i retract my statement then.
Wups, i was actually the one who told him to unvote, my bad in accusing Mute for that there >.>

[Neruz]

On the note of Cops; from a balance standpoint they're really tricky. Guaranteed sane cops typically polarize the game very abruptly into forcing the scum to find and kill the cop ASAP. I'm not sure whether cops -have- fallen out of favour in minis, but i know a lot of players tend to dislike the role due to the result it tends to have on the game, especially in smaller setups (although tbh i consider anything over about 16 people unplayable, but that's a personal opinion).

[Neruz]

Yeah, i'm pretty sure PGO's being blockable is non-standard, but then again every mod seems to have his or her own way of doing things, so i'm not sure if 'standard' actually exists.

[Neruz]

GI. One point you made against me, is that town would not be motivated to wait on this flip. I really don’t agree with you POV on that. Here is a situation where we will either lynch scum, or a town power role. This seems to me an important enough decision to wait for more information to work with while making it.

O_o

Um...

No?

We know for a fact that one of GreyICE or Krazy is scum, and given their claimed actions, Krazy is definitely the most likely scum candidate, why in the nine hells would we delay and give the scum an extra no-charge nightkill?

[Neruz]

QUICK SCUM, HAMMER KRAZY TO PREVENT US FROM FINDING HIS BUDDIES :B

[Neruz]

Actually it was a terrible game, the entire dead thread has been an orgy of rage at you two for the last two days.

Also scum took

forever

to get their quickhammer on, christ guys.

[Neruz]

Yes, the fact that Nath and TBM have taken so bloody long to lynch a townie was one of the many points of rage in the dead thread.

Watch out Mute; GreyICE is out for your blood, also you're forbidden from ever speculating about setup balance ever again.

[Neruz]

This was the first time I ever have. I normally don't bother with it.

That is because you are

terrible

at it and were amazingly wrong at every turn.

[Neruz]

Mute was tunneling so hard there was no way he was ever going to note vote marble. Remember; Mute is a

sniper

.

Also i don't really see any problem with us deadies posting here now; we know the game is over both because Mute claimed town and because Exe told the dead thread the setup

[Neruz]

What was the action-funny that would have confirmed TBMscum?

Scum RB was allowed block and kill at the same time. That's why your track on TBM caught nothing; Nath blocked and killed that night.

[Neruz]

It is a little abnormal; usually you're allowed one action per night and the RB is only allowed block and kill if he's the last scum alive.

[Neruz]

Personally i'm of the opinion that mods should always state what kind of action resolution they're using, just to avoid situations like with the RB\Kill thing.