Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[Empking]

Will read this later.

[Empking]

Town
8. mb53
7. WeaponsofMassConstruction *
11. DarthYoshi
4. q21

Null
1. KingTwelveSixteen
2. silavor
6. Saint
9. Zdenek

Scum
3. implosion
10. ICEninja
12. neko2086 *
13. Nameless

Zdenek: Thoughts on King12?
King12: Thoughts on Saint?
Sila: Thoughts on DarthYoshi?

Unvote

Vote: Namesless

[Empking]

Again with the full scumscales being posted...

Welcome, Empking. What do the asterisks on your scumscale denote? And, what about Nameless' play makes him the scummiest to you so far? And, why post the scumscale?

1. They're prods.
2. Gut
3. a) To remind myself b) to inform everyone else

[Empking]

All my reads are due to gut. And the only one I'm overly confident in is Nameless (who is no doubt about it bona fide scum) and q21.

[Empking]

All my reads are due to gut. And the only one I'm overly confident in is Nameless (who is no doubt about it bona fide scum) and q21.

Hello active lurking.

Hello attacking your attacker.

[Empking]

Empking--why is it important to inform everyone of all your reads, as opposed to, say, just your scumreads? And, why gut when you have over 250 posts of material to analyze? And, why are your definitive reads definitive to you?

1. Because I've just replaced in.
2. In depth analysis is just a way to feel confident in your fallacy filled reads.
3. Because they're ridiculously obvious.

FOS: King

- Ignoring my question, jumping on the Empking wagon rather than scumhunting, "Empking should have noticed the like 10 posts of people saying not to post the list of scum stuff and then not done what he did." which is just so filled with scumminess I'm not sure where to begin.

[Empking]

Neko: I findf that you can't get much from a first read through of the thread. You can get as bit (Like q21 is town and Nameless is scum) but not so much that I'd take too much care over what you get from that first read. Like now King is certainly scum.

Unvote

Vote: King

Zeroethly, neil's rep;lsacing out when taking into account meta reflects very poorly on him.

Firstly, he goes through his first two posts of the game without putting on a vote. This is a deliberately anti-town action and oner I would not expect from town.

Pfft, I read through the whole thing without looking at the last page and my biggest suspect was Neil

Thats just kinda lame.

Well gee this is a transparent ploy isn't it. Now who makes transparent ploys?

Bluh.
Forgot to point out my suspicions of mr. fingerprint avatar for his actions this game. (_over9000)
Namely, he hasn't done any.

VOTE:_over9000

Then he goes for a lurker vote. Gee he sure is scumhunting.

Neil does not exist. He is a figment of your imagination.
I am Neil. Neil is me. We are one.

Seriously I don't know what Neils problem was, (he was super wierd looking in his posts) but he is not here anymore. I am.

Stop your scum hunting right away!

Reading his posts, he's still attacking that lurker rather thasn doing any scumhunting. Yay!

@nameless: Wow, nice one. Theres like 3 different contradictions there.

Wow being a hypocrite (He accuses 9000 of parotting) and either buddying up or supporting his scum buddy. (The post suggests the first, the fact thaty Nameless is scum suggests the latter.). Theres like 3 different scum tells there.

And he goes back to his lurker WAGON as soon as he's worried Implosion won't be lynched.

Empking should have noticed the like 10 posts of people saying not to post the list of scum stuff and then not done what he did. He also shoulda explained his vote more.

This is him pretending to scuhunting. Do you know who pretendfeds to scumhunt? That's right! Scum.

[Empking]

Empking:

Firstly, he goes through his first two posts of the game without putting on a vote. This is a deliberately anti-town action and oner I would not expect from town.

Why is this deliberately anti-town? I haven't heard of replacing in and not voting as a scumtell.

Ooh, Darth Yoshi hasn't heard of it. My mistake then.

It slows the game down and reduces momentum. You should (almost) always (outside of lynch or lose) have your vote on someone. Itys a scumtell because there's an anti-town motivation but not a town motivation.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Nameless

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Nameless

There you go with the not explaining your votes thing again. And not responding to my posts.

Why is this post scummy?
1. IIoA
2. Refusing to put him out there.
3. No analysis
4. Trying to throw mud at a player for things that are a null tell at worst.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Nameless

There you go with the not explaining your votes thing again. And not responding to my posts.

Why is this post scummy?
1. IIoA
2. Refusing to put him out there.
3. No analysis
4. Trying to throw mud at a player for things that are a null tell at worst.

1. My analysis is that you should actually explain why you are doing things, instead of just moving your votes around wily-nilly with no justification.
2. I have no idea what that means.
3. This point is the same as point 1.
4. Not explaining your votes and refusal to answer questions about it even when called on it are null tells?

1. That's not analysis.
2. "Refusing to put himself out there" then.
3. "Not thinking about the game in depth" then.
4. No its clearly a town tell, that's what the "at worst" is there for.

[Empking]

EBWOP: only going off info up to the aforementioned point in the thread, ICE/mongoose/q21 are most likely scum. More later.

Wow, we're of complete opposite opinions.Are your town reads Nameless and King per chance?

[Empking]

Neko: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15876

[Empking]

4. No its clearly a town tell, that's what the "at worst" is there for.

What.

Apparently this post did not contain the full measure of my disbelieve in this statement. Here is a new post that should hopefully clear things up.

what.

What do you call an action with no scum motivation but with a town motivation? I call it a town tell.

[Empking]

The town motive is to lure scum out of their comfort zone it also helps trap players who are more interested in theory than hunting scum. (i.e you). he scum motivations you give are really awful. 1. It doesn't stiffle debate 2. Arguments are rarely scummy.

[Empking]

1. Wrong. I'm finding scum. People who are not you and I are talking about other things.
2. Unless made public then they can only be bad for the town if the player thinking them is town. That's obviously not scummy.

How does it lure scum out of their comfort zone?

1. Its unusual
2. They can't prepare.

Also, knowing the reason other players are voting for people tends to be kind of important for figuring out if they are scum or town.

This is just typical scum lying.

[Empking]

1. As the only player (other that ICE(?)) on the right track I kinda am.
2. Changing the goal posts much. Hmmm, who would do that? Oh, yeah, scum.
1a. Yes the newbie game teaching poor play.
2b. Town don't need to prepare.
3. I don't need to debunk the point. Its clearly false. Oh wait unless your saying that scum are honest about their reasons you're changing the goal posts yet again.

[Empking]

I suppose I should

actually

at least

start

to explain why I dislike that statement so much.

It is for the attitude that it implies.

The attitude that you are right, and everyone else is wrong. That you don't have to think critically of any of your beliefs or discuss any conflicting beliefs because "I'm right."
I despise that attitude. It has caused so much strife and discord. It shuts down any significant communication with the person who holds that attitude. You cannot argue, convince, or reason with somebody holding that type of attitude. The worst part is that most people with that attitude won't change even if shown wrong, the only way to remove it is a major, major wakeup call from reality saying that "No, you are wrong." Like life-shattering events type things here. Even then some people like that

still

won't change, and will stay stuck in their self-delusion forever.

That is why I dislike that point so much.

Nice AtE. By gosh you're heavy on the rhetoric.

Question; Why are you having this argument?

[Empking]

Question; Why are you having this argument?

Which argument? The ridiculous one that not explaining anything is pure townie or the one about attitudes that refuse any reasonable discussion?
If its the second one it is because I absolutely despise that attitude.

So you're not hunting scum. You're just gtrying to distract the town?

Well, who does that? Scum.

(This is my lsast post toweards you. I am still on the Nameless wagon, remember.)

[Empking]

Emp 249: did you see people's reactions to mb/my scumscales before posting this?

Yes.

Emp 273: serious question here, serious answer please - are you intentionally making your justifications for voting/fosing/everything/etcetera bad?

Look King is clearly not town. He's purposely active lurking, engaging in rhetoric to get the town to like him, lurker voting, wagon hopping (in a riduclously scummy fashion. Like stupidly so.) and all in all not even pretending to scumhunt. You might think those are poor reasons but that's because you're not very good at this game.

[Empking]

Also, If arguing with you is active lurking then you are doing it as well

How so? I argued with you to cement my read.

But I guess thast post was just OMGUS, nun huh you did it too and "I know you are but what am I".

Seriously, you're just ridiculous with saying I refused to answer that question. Implosion wanted to know something. He now knows it.

[Empking]

For all I know, Ice is the only one who has read any of my posts.

@ Nameless, you say you're "noticing me". How about an opinion about my posts? Any merit? If not, why? I get why you thought q21 was scummy, but I think what he actually was is lazy. He didn't answer questions, didn't do much. He thought if arguments were bad he could just ignore them. Lazy and stupid. Not much I can do about that, and I'm not suspicious of anyone's scum read on him for it. I am, however, suspicious that you're trying to coast through with just that. I don't think what you've pointed out on him is enough to be so confident my slot is scum, especially without saying a word about anything I've posted.

Did anyone even look at the timing of Ice's posts that I pointed out? No one else thinks it's scummy to go from finding someone mildly scummy for really weak reasons and then ready to lynch so quickly? (And then later lie about it and say you changed your opinion "over time" based on the arguments everyone was coming up with?)

1. People change opinons quickly all the time. That's not a scum tell.
2. People have faulty memories. Also not a scum tell.

[Empking]

Empking, when you replaced in, you named Ice as scum. Your response to my posts (and previous entire lack thereof) do not indicate in the least that you actually think he's scum. What did you find scummy about him in your initial read? Do you have anything else to say about all the things I found scummy?

Ima ISO your slot.

So Mongoose did almost nothing. No scum hunting, no analysis, no stating suspicions. He actively flew under the radar until he was replaced out. The only times he did say anything about other players, he qualified the statements in a way that looks like he was avoiding actually saying anything he would have to explain. (i.e. “q21 summed up what i thought perfectly so no real content here” and “I dont like how neil likes how many people jumped on him though, however it sounds like something I would say so I will let it be.”)

Empking’s entry into the game was interesting. He posted a full breakdown without giving any reasons whatsoever (and then when asked for reasons on Nameless he merely says “gut”. There’s been an awfully lot of content to simply be going with gut imo.) He put neko, Ice and Nameless on his scum list which was refreshing since no one else had poked at any of them much. If Empking is scum, my original read of the game was pretty off. He lists q21 as certain town, which I actually find bizarre since q21’s play was fairly lazy and unhelpful. It's interesting when someone declares your slot as obviously town. I find myself wanting to agree with his analysis because I know he's right about my slot, but if he's scum he knows everyone's alignment anyway so meh.

If an Ice wagon can't happen before deadline, I'd prefer an empking lynch over the other options.

Are people using that "there's beren an awful lot of content to be using gut" just to annoy me. Gut and "proper" analysis are just two different ways of analysing posts. In my experience gut is the more accurate method (for myself.)

[Empking]

Gut to question one and three. (OK, q21 was clearly playing to the town win con. I'll ISO Iece later.)

ICEninja was the first one to ping the scumdar. In his first post, he casts suspicion on WMC for what seemed pretty obviously a joke when I read it (I'll get into the later claim that it was a trap... later) and then once it earns him two votes, he backpeddles saying he only thought it was strange and he didn’t say it was scummy. This feels false since his post certainly intended to cast suspicion. Who cares if you SAID it was scummy? It was certainly implied. He also says “I'm glad others are noting that this is suspicious” which is clearly manipulation (and the result he wanted, obviously).

Not a scumtell.

Post 57 reads like scum distancing. Neko saying Ice is going to get on his nerves and that he’s making mountains out of molehills - distancing without attacking at all. Then Ice declares that Neko’s response to the “weak jab” reads as town.

Weak until one of them flips.

Ice then posts calling out mongoose for voting weapons without giving reason and then gives implosion a free pass for posting a scum list with no reasoning. Instead he focuses on asking why nameless was listed as scummy. If he were really scum hunting (rather than scum pretending to do so) I think he'd also have called out Implosion here. He also says he agrees with what neko is saying so he doesn't find him scummy. Since when is someone not scum because they agree with you? This free pass is very suspicious.

Since always.

So then ice says “I think Saint is mildly scummy due to his predecessor and partially because of his all over the place posting.” This follows Zedenek having added a vote to Saint. This is subtle wagon pushing and keeping yourself open to hammer a townie. Also, what is scummy about posting several posts the way he did, and how is it “all over the place”? Has this always bothered you, or are you just making friends with KTS? Or just looking for a reason to hammer a townie? Ironically, ice then posts again (so all over the place and scummy!) to add a little umph to his future Saint vote. Does this bring him up from mildly scummy, ice? You can probably vote him soon without looking too suspicious right? Check.]

The "There's a scum motive so its a scum tell" fallacy. The easiest explaination is that he's town who is being honest.

[Empking]

Oh, I didn't like ICE's attack of WOMC who (it seemed to me) what town helping the game along.

[Empking]

Also, If arguing with you is active lurking then you are doing it as well

How so? I argued with you to cement my read.

But I guess thast post was just OMGUS, nun huh you did it too and "I know you are but what am I".

Seriously, you're just ridiculous with saying I refused to answer that question. Implosion wanted to know something. He now knows it.

Ah, the "Its only scummy if someone else does it" argument. A classic.
That was a single accusation in a post that contained at least six accusations. Misrep.
You didn't answer the question, you used it to attack me. If you were actually answering the question you would have just said "yes" and left it at that.

[Empking]

Why am I scummier than Implosion? (After all I'm clearly not scum with Implosion as evident by the wagon. If Implosion was still the scummiest it clearly wouldn't be logical to vote me.)

Also, since you hate gut so much, I presume you've done some indepth analysis.

There was very little I liked about Empking’s entrance into the game, and he continues to not be very forthright: his #369 responses to Set’s questions still rely entirely on “gut” when we’re 15 pages in.

Why is that scummy?

(Actually howe isn't forthright. My read on Nameless is gut. I say that its gut.)

His case on KTS in #357—active lurking, lurker voting, vote hopping, all sounds like stuff he is doing as well, while pretending to scumhunt on KTS. I can’t imagine both playslots are scum, just because I can’t see scumbuddies interacting with each other like this, but at this point, I have to think one or the other is.

Actually, bugger this.

How am I asctive lurking?
How am I lurker voting (Seriously, WTF)?

Now give us some in depth analysis of how you know that I'm only "pretending" to scum hunt?

And part of the reason this feels

Seriously you complain about me using icky gut voting and then you talk about "feels". BS. Complete BS.

We’re 4-5 days from the deadline (for me in my time zone, it is basically four days, since the deadline is in the middle of the night), and, like other players have said, a no-lynch isn’t an option, so I agree that we need to come together on a wagon

That's just nonsense.

[Empking]

In order to make this readable I'll only tyalk about his most recent posts.

I'm not sure how to respond to Saint's posts. The thing is, I actually agree with most of his reads and content. But after looking closer, I don't like the way he's presented them.

"Z but also not Z" - Dol I need to explain it.

Hello active lurking.

Got nothing exciting to add today that hasn't already been said, so ...

I'm replacing out.

*headdesk*

This postsd are consecutive on his ISO. Yeah.

Saint, I swear to God I would lynch you right now if you had a wagon. If you don't see how your catchup was scummy then you have apparently not read pretty much everything anyone has had to say about you since you replaced in.

We all know how this is scummy.

THIS IS THE TOWN:

@Saint: A few things. First, why is neko SK? Isn't that a huge leap of logic and/or speculation? Second, why do you find my list and/or anything else scummy? I'm not sure if that's iioa, but it's something like that... giving reads and not explaining them. Also, mb "explained _over9000" in his ISO 4. It didn't "sell" me, it's just that _over9000's scumminess had already been explained in a previous post.

Whats with the sudden jokeyness? Perhaps it is you who is the serial killer! Since you seem so convinced there is one and once you mention your read for the SK your posting style changes to be much more jokey.

I do share in the other players’ questions of your read on serial killer neko—Implosion’s note that it is a huge jump in logic, and KTS’s as to why you are so convinced that there is an SK in the setup.

I’m also curious about your read on Mongoose—you say in #224 that he lurks as scum, but you also say in your very next post that you played with Mongoose and this wasn’t his scum play—but Mongoose has spent a lot of time lurking or just not being around (including, I would consider, the present moment, with him having checked in some time ago, but w/ still no content). This looks odd.

Wow, buddy much?

Again... Buddy much? And on a post I thought was complete crap too. Nice.

I'm not sure how to respond to Saint's posts. The thing is, I actually agree with most of his reads and content. But after looking closer, I don't like the way he's presented them. A couple of times he pads his posts out with meaningless promises or his belief in the town. The way he buddies up with people who agree with him is obviously excessive, and makes me wonder if he's not just borrowing ideas from and appealing to the more active players in order to appear town himself. I rather suspect the hostile reaction to my vote of neil (+ what DarthYoshi said in #238 re. his Mongoose read) is only for the sake of defending his own replacee's inactivity - which shouldn't be necessary if Saint plays well. And no, I don't know where the heck his neko = SK read came from either.

Saint, what causes you to believe that he is more likely to be an SK than scum with the information we have?

I see where Nameless is coming from with his analysis of Saint's tone, and will pay close attention to any further buddying that he does.

The rest of his posts thus far--I do not at all like how easily he claims mongoose and zdenek to be town. Call me scum for being "nervous" if you want, but blindly following others means you likely know something we don't.

Saint's newest post- how exactly is that a slip? I meant "what"-- over made a completely pointless request for q21 to explain his typo, and I couldn't (and still can't) imagine what he could possibly have been going after.

Seems a bit to eager to accuse anyone of anything. He also seems to just...ignore any scummyness his predeccesor had. Like, not ignore the suspicions, just flat out trying to explain away the stuff as if it was nothing at all, even when nobody is calling him specifically out on it.
Oh, just rereading and Saint asks Neko what his (saint's) read on Neko is about. How could anyone know whats up with someone elses read like that? Unless they can read minds or something...

Reeks of having too much information and of buddying.

An SK read, before there are multiple kills? This seems like a scummy attempt to distract the town from scum hunting or to seem pro-active and townie by looking for all sorts of anti-town characters.

Saint-- I really don't see anything suspicious with mb's asking why such and such makes him scummy. This is a completely legitimate question to ask. Possibly the most important one--people need to back up their claims of what is scummy. Also, I hate to be the fluff police (I really don't mind it when it's marginal), but does 264 merit its own post? That whole sequence of posts really doesn't amount to much. In general, the cases you are trying to build are attempting to be novel but are based on really inconsequential details (or no details at all), as though you're trying to appear to be helpful.

This is terrible. You just essentially said "I feel like you are all just pushing the scummiest looking player", and had an undertone that it is scummy to do so.

This doesn't even make sense. He is voting you because you "know" he's scum with implosion?

If you don't see how your catchup was scummy then you have apparently not read pretty much everything anyone has had to say about you since you replaced in.

Your play is getting more attention, and I can definitely see why. I'm prepared for some impulsive posting from you based on my previous experience with you, but posts like these are bad, bad, bad.

THIS IS SAINT:

Why are there still votes on me?

This is scum trying to mislead.

Aww, look at the cute little scumbuddies, aren't they adorable? (BTW, don't think I'm not noticing you either, Setael.)

Weak argumenty is

weak

scummy.

[Empking]

That you are paying way more attention to KTS despite your vote being elsewhere also makes your case on him look less than sincere.

Why would scum do that?

It isn’t nonsense. If we’re going to allow for L-1 rituals like claiming, blah blah blah, then we need a wagon in the next couple of days to have time for that. I’m not the only player noting that we need to come to a consensus soon (Ice in #348, Setael in #361, Pie in #363). I decided that if I'm going to say I suspect you as much as I do, I should be willing to vote for you.

It wouldn't surprise me if I've been in more games that all of those combined (even Setael). We do not need to wagon this early.

Letting people know your scumreads, sure, but all your reads?

Yers. Its called optimum town play.

because there is nothing for us to analyze—no reads, no slips, no nothing.

Seriously. You're moaning on one hand about me providing all my reads and on the other about providing no reads. (And of course there aren't slips. Slips are a newbie tell.)

My discussion with King has given me a 100% scum read on him. Can you say the same about me or Implosion?

[Empking]

Emp has provided one post, 357, with what I feel are reasons to legitimately vote someone. And I'm pretty sure a fair amount of those are made-up. Emp, can you provide specific cases where the people you are accusing have done the things you are accusing them of? It isn't acceptable to say "Hey guys, x is scum because of y, now all of you should find evidence to support what I said."[/quote

Provide me with a quote for how I haven't provided quotes for what's happening.

I don't believe this for two seconds. You were basically trolling him; there is no other way to put it. Even assuming you believe your game theory, you know fully well that the majority of players don't. Attempting to argue it in the middle of an ongoing game - where you have already been accused of not providing specific analysis - is never going to increase your townie standing. And when you start acting sarcastically towards the first player to disagree with you ... It's clear you were choosing to get a rise out of King.

This is just stupid.

King admitted that he wasn't trying to scumhunt.

I goty King to admit to not trying to scumhunt or to put ity into other words I got King to admit to being scum. What have you done today?

[Empking]

Post 25-37 are all talking to me. Why is he talking to me?

Question; Why are you having this argument?

Which argument? The ridiculous one that not explaining anything is pure townie or the one about attitudes that refuse any reasonable discussion?
If its the second one it is because I absolutely despise that attitude.

[Empking]

...

King admitted that he wasn't trying to scumhunt.

...

Lies, I said no such thing.

"I will ignore the quote where I admitted it. I didn't really think that one through."

[Empking]

Is that nice AtE me/ Because I've given a case on King and Nameless.

[Empking]

P.S. When I was arguing the big ridiculous case I was trying to figure out if you were merely playing teribbly or scum. That counts as scumhunting.

Really, I could have sworn it was:

Question; Why are you having this argument?

Which argument? The ridiculous one that not explaining anything is pure townie or the one about attitudes that refuse any reasonable discussion?
If its the second one it is because I absolutely despise that attitude.

King did not misremember that. He's lying to trick the town.

[Empking]

I'm going to claim in order for us to lynch the obvious scum rather than being shamelessly manipulated by them. Mason here. Now let's vote Nameless.

[Empking]

Yeah my theory was correct. Neko is the third scum.

1. He's on the scum-leading position on the Saint wagon.
But more importantly,
2. Neko is a good player. He is not playing like a good player because he can just watcvh this town self-destruct.

[Empking]

Yeah, I don't believe you. Nor do I see King lying about anything. It's also really funny how you're saying King is "100% scum", but you're not even voting him. Darth already pointed this out, though.

PEdit: lol

1. Why don't you believe me?
2. When asked why he was having an argument he said (in no uncertain terms) that it was not to scumhunt but because he didn't like the attitude I had. When called upon it he made up some cockamany excuse. Why don't you consider that a lie?

[Empking]

Ok, I honestly have no idea what you're even talking about anymore.

Ok, THATS what you are talking about.

Same post. Rhetoric rather than scumhunting.

Still you push the case on Nameless. Not me. Not the apparently 100% scummy person.

When Darth Yoshi compromises that's A-OK. When I do that's unambigious evidence of my being scum. Why the contradiction? Oh, yes. Because you're scum.

As previously stated, I only brought that thing up as a possible thing you could be talking about because I wasn't sure what you were talking about. The attitude thing had two posts about it and the second was immediatly after the first and did nothing but clarify why I hated that reasoning so much.
The reasoning being that you are right because you just are. The whole thing was me saying that that attitude and the actions and "reasoning" that result from it shove any and all debate straight into the ground and that you had better not be using those actions and reasoning to try and justify yourself, because no, that is not how it works. AT ALL. EVER. You have to give actual reasons other than "because its true" if you want people to believe you. Or be able to debate with you. Or say that you are right. Or really do anything at all.

To be more specific and helpful and whatnot I shall spell it out: the reason I made that big seperate thing calling the attitude terrible and useless is because I DESPISE that attitude. Otherwise I would have just made a single little point like: "Thats not how it works" or "Try giving a real explanation instead of just saying that you're right" or something like that. The reason I made the huge thing that could make that qualify as a seperate argument is because I so severly dislike everything there is about that attitude. Everything.

Or to put it into less passionate terms. "I was active lurking because I'm scum."

[Empking]

Mod:

We’re 4-5 days from the deadline (for me in my time zone, it is basically four days, since the deadline is in the middle of the night), and, like other players have said, a no-lynch isn’t an option, so I agree that we need to come together on a wagon. In that spirit…

Unvote. Vote: Empking.

[Empking]

Whats this thing about Darth Yoshi? Whats he got to do with this?

Its an illustration about how you're clearly not honestly scumhunting but picking and choosing in order to get a townie lynched without coming out of it as too scummy.

instead of attacking either of the other two people who you (apparently) have actual reasoning to vote for.

1. Who are they?
2. I've made a case on why Nameless is scum. Oh wait, that doesn't fit with your argument, no wonder you're ignoring it.

Sounds an awful lot like these two posts should be mutually exclusive.

Are you making stuff up or are you ignorant about what the word "slip" means (in the context of Mafiascum)? Honest question.

You still have not said whether or not your mason partner is going to confirm you.

Why should they? Can you give a scum reason for claiming mason?

How about: "I refuse to actually argue anything instead of being overly general and giving accusations that don't contribute to the debate at all because I'm scum."

I've provided cases on two players and provided conclusing evidence for you beiong scum. (Unfortunately it requires at least a couple of brain cells in order to see it.)

[Empking]

And, why would a town PR claim on D1 without any prompting when they are at L-2?[/quote

Because that is the optimum play in this sitiuation (Deadline is coming up). Now, why would scum claim mason?

Also, why haven't you examined my Nameless case (or my King case).

What about the full scumscale makes it optimum town play? Especially when based on gut?

1. It allows people to see when I change my reads.
2. Either stop going "Oooh, icky gut" or replace out and join another newbie game. I've provided far more actual analysis than you have.

Any number of reasons--distancing, bussing, plausible deniability--distracting the town by highlighting an "easy lynch" without actually having your vote on the player, etc.

OK. What of those do you think is the case in this game.

Then why isn’t your vote on him?

Why isn't your vote on Implosion?

[Empking]

This is rather an exaggeration. You explicitly said you were only commenting on my recent posts rather than making a full case, and you didn't explain / justify any of your points even before I refuted them.

1. All my points were explained and none were refuted.
2. Either quote where I said I wasn't making a full case or quote a resprcted sourse that says that cases must talk about every post their target has ever made.

Because your claim is meaningless if otherwise, if not scummy in itself since you should be able to back it up.

You want me to out my buddy?

And to avoid being lynched with a roleclaim that can't be disproved during the night, obv.

Avoid how many lynches?

[Empking]

ANSWER MY QUESTION

That's not a refution. That's you saying a bunch of random words without anyway to see if they bear any relationship tyo what I wrote. You're playing in a deliberately anti-town fashion with those "refutions".

[Empking]

Empking, I was assuming your last questions were rhetorical,

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever heard. Also not how KingTwelve rushed as fast as his littler fingers can carry him in order to defend Nameless irrelevantly.

Oh yeah, Setael, stop being an idiot. k thx. I'm not going to claim my partner. That's justy ridiculously anti-town.

If I'm telling the truth and claim my partner: We both die in successive nights. (Actually since you're a bunch of scum following sheep its more likely that I'll be lynched and

then

my partner killed.
If I'm telling the truth and don't claim my partner; Once I'm dead you'll have a confirmed town player which is essential to counter the overwhelming stupidity present in at least half the town.
Advantage: No reveal.

If I'm lying and you allow me to not claim my partner; I get lynched once its clear I have no partner. But while I live you can see my post for links eith my scumbuddies.
If I'm lying and you force me to claim my partner: I get lynched. Woo.
Advantage: No reveal.

Now when we couple that with the fact that no sane Mafiaso we'll claim a claim that will eventually get the lynched...

[Empking]

If Emp is indeed mason, btw, it would indeed be really stupid for the partner to be outed. I don't like the suggestions otherwise at all.

See told you Neko was smart.

you pegged me as scum based on gut as soon as you replaced, and now you are fabricating a story around it to make that read make sense, it seems to me

I pegged a lot of people as scum in my first post but I'd call them town at this point. You on the other hand seem to be playing as I'd expect scum to play. (Honestly, I actually had two theories. 1. You were scum. 2. The third person on Saint's wagon was scum. I wasn't sure which (and then I checked the thread and learnt they were the same player.)

But it's clear your read has already been cemented, so why goad him on?

I'm not goading him on. I was trying to get him offbalanced so he'd make a mistake. He made that mistake and at this point as good as claimed scum. That was worth my time.

[Empking]

Setael: Are you under the impression that we're on Htrae, the world without breadcrumbs?

[Empking]

Your mafia goon claims for two reasons (to out a power role or to get to end game). Which one I'm I doing?

[Empking]

Your mafia goon claims for two reasons (to out a power role or to get to end game). Which one I'm I doing?

Wrong, there is another reason. The goon knows he's gonna die anyway and claims in a desperate attempt to get a/several townies lynched before he goes. If he thinks he's gonna be lynched anyway theres no downside for the scumteam and it gives him a chance 'cause a/several mislynch'es. Though the several would probably only happen if the town was acting kinda stupid.

This is a load of scum tosh.

If we leave the goon for later then we 1. Have the best scumhunters still alive. 2. Have the more accurate players (for this individual game) still alive. That means we're more likely to get a lynch on another scum if we leave the goon for later.

[Empking]

Your mafia goon claims for two reasons (to out a power role or to get to end game). Which one I'm I doing?

Wrong, there is another reason. The goon knows he's gonna die anyway and claims in a desperate attempt to get a/several townies lynched before he goes. If he thinks he's gonna be lynched anyway theres no downside for the scumteam and it gives him a chance 'cause a/several mislynch'es. Though the several would probably only happen if the town was acting kinda stupid.

This is a load of scum tosh.

If we leave the goon for later then we 1. Have the best scumhunters still alive. 2. Have the more accurate players (for this individual game) still alive. That means we're more likely to get a lynch on another scum if we leave the goon for later.

...Are you recommending we don't lynch the first mafia goon we find?

Nice strawman. If I'm scum then I'm a dead man walking. If I'm town then I'm a massive boon (If just for my night kill drawing). In that (very specific case) we should wait.

And whats this about best scumhunters and more accurate players?

When they are alive town does better but those mean scum will very meanly kill them

[Empking]

I think Nameless covered that one--because there is no overt night action to confirm the role, so it is an easier fakeclaim.

Yes but what do they get out of it?

If I had to guess, plausible deniability, since you keep pointing out your vote is on Nameless despite a "100% scum read" on KTS.

Plausible deniability for what? Voting a player even though it didn't lead to his lynch or claim?

My vote isn't on KTS gbecause we near deadline. That "newbie game" line wasn't trying to mock you, if you think using gut is a scum tell then you're not ready for proper games.

[Empking]

In order to make this readable I'll only tyalk about his most recent posts.

I'm not sure how to respond to Saint's posts. The thing is, I actually agree with most of his reads and content. But after looking closer, I don't like the way he's presented them.

"Z but also not Z" - Dol I need to explain it.

Hello active lurking.

Got nothing exciting to add today that hasn't already been said, so ...

I'm replacing out.

*headdesk*

This postsd are consecutive on his ISO. Yeah.

Saint, I swear to God I would lynch you right now if you had a wagon. If you don't see how your catchup was scummy then you have apparently not read pretty much everything anyone has had to say about you since you replaced in.

We all know how this is scummy.

THIS IS THE TOWN:

@Saint: A few things. First, why is neko SK? Isn't that a huge leap of logic and/or speculation? Second, why do you find my list and/or anything else scummy? I'm not sure if that's iioa, but it's something like that... giving reads and not explaining them. Also, mb "explained _over9000" in his ISO 4. It didn't "sell" me, it's just that _over9000's scumminess had already been explained in a previous post.

Whats with the sudden jokeyness? Perhaps it is you who is the serial killer! Since you seem so convinced there is one and once you mention your read for the SK your posting style changes to be much more jokey.

I do share in the other players’ questions of your read on serial killer neko—Implosion’s note that it is a huge jump in logic, and KTS’s as to why you are so convinced that there is an SK in the setup.

I’m also curious about your read on Mongoose—you say in #224 that he lurks as scum, but you also say in your very next post that you played with Mongoose and this wasn’t his scum play—but Mongoose has spent a lot of time lurking or just not being around (including, I would consider, the present moment, with him having checked in some time ago, but w/ still no content). This looks odd.

Wow, buddy much?

Again... Buddy much? And on a post I thought was complete crap too. Nice.

I'm not sure how to respond to Saint's posts. The thing is, I actually agree with most of his reads and content. But after looking closer, I don't like the way he's presented them. A couple of times he pads his posts out with meaningless promises or his belief in the town. The way he buddies up with people who agree with him is obviously excessive, and makes me wonder if he's not just borrowing ideas from and appealing to the more active players in order to appear town himself. I rather suspect the hostile reaction to my vote of neil (+ what DarthYoshi said in #238 re. his Mongoose read) is only for the sake of defending his own replacee's inactivity - which shouldn't be necessary if Saint plays well. And no, I don't know where the heck his neko = SK read came from either.

Saint, what causes you to believe that he is more likely to be an SK than scum with the information we have?

I see where Nameless is coming from with his analysis of Saint's tone, and will pay close attention to any further buddying that he does.

The rest of his posts thus far--I do not at all like how easily he claims mongoose and zdenek to be town. Call me scum for being "nervous" if you want, but blindly following others means you likely know something we don't.

Saint's newest post- how exactly is that a slip? I meant "what"-- over made a completely pointless request for q21 to explain his typo, and I couldn't (and still can't) imagine what he could possibly have been going after.

Seems a bit to eager to accuse anyone of anything. He also seems to just...ignore any scummyness his predeccesor had. Like, not ignore the suspicions, just flat out trying to explain away the stuff as if it was nothing at all, even when nobody is calling him specifically out on it.
Oh, just rereading and Saint asks Neko what his (saint's) read on Neko is about. How could anyone know whats up with someone elses read like that? Unless they can read minds or something...

Reeks of having too much information and of buddying.

An SK read, before there are multiple kills? This seems like a scummy attempt to distract the town from scum hunting or to seem pro-active and townie by looking for all sorts of anti-town characters.

Saint-- I really don't see anything suspicious with mb's asking why such and such makes him scummy. This is a completely legitimate question to ask. Possibly the most important one--people need to back up their claims of what is scummy. Also, I hate to be the fluff police (I really don't mind it when it's marginal), but does 264 merit its own post? That whole sequence of posts really doesn't amount to much. In general, the cases you are trying to build are attempting to be novel but are based on really inconsequential details (or no details at all), as though you're trying to appear to be helpful.

This is terrible. You just essentially said "I feel like you are all just pushing the scummiest looking player", and had an undertone that it is scummy to do so.

This doesn't even make sense. He is voting you because you "know" he's scum with implosion?

If you don't see how your catchup was scummy then you have apparently not read pretty much everything anyone has had to say about you since you replaced in.

Your play is getting more attention, and I can definitely see why. I'm prepared for some impulsive posting from you based on my previous experience with you, but posts like these are bad, bad, bad.

THIS IS SAINT:

Why are there still votes on me?

This is scum trying to mislead.

Aww, look at the cute little scumbuddies, aren't they adorable? (BTW, don't think I'm not noticing you either, Setael.)

Weak argumenty is

weak

scummy.

[Empking]

Has anybody notyiced that King's last post can be boiled down to "I'm posting lots of words to pretend not to be scum." Let's pick three arbritary posts.

Post 21: Pie says he wants Empking lynched. Emp's post is responding to Setael's post, nothing really scummy here that I see.

Post 23: Set says Emp should say more stuff and asks the questions: Why did you think Ice was scummy at the start? What do you think of my case on Ice? What about his defense? Why do you think q21 is town?

Post 15: I say it does stifle debate and give an example, then point out that faulty arguments could get town killed and should be considered scummy. (since scum wants town killed.) I ask how it takes scum out of their comfort zone and mention that knowing the reasoning behind votes is important for determening their alignment.

These
1. They're not about my posts! He needs to ignore my posts in his PBPA of me!!! That's how much he can't pretend I'm scum.
2. IIOA

(You might be like "What about the rest of the post?" Those three quote revealed, without controversity, that he's just after trying to look good.)

And let's see a typical argument:

and because people who arn't me and him are talking about other things, which is false, the last 5 posts are only ours,

Do I need to explain why thing is LOL scum grasping?

Also, why is King making this case?

1. He's town and thinks I'm scum? Can't be. Its a given that if I'm scum I'll be lynched tommorrow. So he's just wasting his time.
2. He's scum and either wants me to claim my partner or get lynched? Yeah, this makes sense.
3. He's scum and wants to look like he's contributing? Also logical.

King: Any explaination I'm misssing?

[Empking]

So the reason you are making these posts is 2 and 3? Good to know.

People's alignments aren't found when they're at to top of the game its found when people are scrambling for IIOA, laughable arguments in order to pad their posts and try and look town.

Oh yeah and for people thinking his post suggests town reading the game in a pro-town mind set. According to King the scummiest thing I've done was contradict myself. So yeah, if that's not scum just looking at the surface rather than thinking for two seconds then I'm not sure what is.

[Empking]

Are you able to provide a town motivation for your recernty posts? Y/N?

(Thinking about the game in depth is completely different ftom in depth analysis.Thinking about the game in depth is "Dath Yoshi is an idiot but probably town" (i.e not taking the game at its surface)In depth analysis is "He didn't vote in his first two posts ego hurting the town ergo an anti-town action ergo he must be scum" So nice misrepresentation. )

[Empking]

...What? You...you just used an example that you yourself said for in-depth analysis. When you clearly earlier said that it was bad. You countered my argument...and at the same time admitted to a similiar but slightly different contradiction. I don't even know what to say about that.

Er wrong. You're claimerd scum therefore dwelving into indepth analysis to you post carries with it no dangers.

You still might not be lynched, so my giant wall could help kill a scum.

We both know this is false. Scum claiming mason is a dead man walking.

Having the entire reason for your scuminess down in one place makes it easier to see that you are scum, and explains my entire argument in one place instead of making people have to re-read the entire thread to understand it.

LOL. King's forgotten that he hasn't finished his wall (i.e it isn't all in one place.) Scummy, scummy liar.

If you do turn out to be town then it helps to show how terrible all your arguments against me have been, so I don't get lynched because of them. And they have been terrible.

You're right I did forget that.

4. You're scum who can't argue with the message and as such is attacking the messager. (As we're all aware, town would trust in their innocence rather than going down to usde scum tactics.)

It will help your later play to know exactly why people think of you as scum.

[Empking]

Mod: Doesn't WOMC want to replace out?

[Empking]

...What? You...you just used an example that you yourself said for in-depth analysis. When you clearly earlier said that it was bad. You countered my argument...and at the same time admitted to a similiar but slightly different contradiction. I don't even know what to say about that.

Er wrong. You're claimerd scum therefore dwelving into indepth analysis to you post carries with it no dangers.

What? If I understand this right then you are saying that in depth analysis is fine, but only if someone has admitted to being scum?

Its not a way of learning someone's alignment.

Even though I didn't? And that if I HAD you should have just been able to point it out and get town to lynch me?

This is scum gloating.

Having the entire reason for your scuminess down in one place makes it easier to see that you are scum, and explains my entire argument in one place instead of making people have to re-read the entire thread to understand it.

LOL. King's forgotten that he hasn't finished his wall (i.e it isn't all in one place.) Scummy, scummy liar.

Calling me a scummy liar because I havn't finished something yet? And even if I do keep it in two places if I finish it it would still be far more convienient than looking back through the whole thread.

You're clearly contradicting yourself in your rush to try and not get lynched for lynching a mason.

If you do turn out to be town then it helps to show how terrible all your arguments against me have been, so I don't get lynched because of them. And they have been terrible.

You're right I did forget that.

4. You're scum who can't argue with the message and as such is attacking the messager. (As we're all aware, town would trust in their innocence rather than going down to usde scum tactics.)

Attacking the messanger? You mean Adhominem?

Misrep. Attacking the messenger is exactly this. I've explained why you can't not ber scum. But rather than asrgue with that you're instead trying to sully my reputation by trying to pretend I'm overwhelmingly.

I could have sworn this whole time that I've been giving actual reasons for my posts (You know, those reasons you've been ignoring) and why yours are bad and not ever sucumbing to the temptation of insulting you.

It will help your later play to know exactly why people think of you as scum.

You do realise how bad you are playing, right? You are at L-1 with a mason claim even though it is apparently a terrible idea to kill a claimed mason day 1. Thats how scummy you are being.

I wouldn't call a large porportion of the player base having no grasp of theory equivilant to my being scummy.

On that note I would like to point out that you completly ignored the original reason I gave for posting the wall: "I wanted EVERYTHING scummy you've done to be on the table, not just the more obvious stuff or the things you actually respond to." Its extra relevent 'cause you once again ignored huge portions of my posts.

Why?

What's the motive for that? (Therre isn't one, King is just scummy Mc. Scum.)

[Empking]

OK. When you claimed to not be scumhunting and was just active lurking in order to trick the town into believing you were town. Where's your counterargument to that?

[Empking]

When I said that there wasn't a town motive for your big post directed against me, your counter argument was?

[Empking]

No. I is not even close to the pro-town thing. A confirmed townie (like me mason partner) is stronger late game rathen than getting killed off night two.

(Oh yeah and LOL at the Two Masons, 1 Doc and a Cop speculation.)

Set: Why would scum claim Mason? (And no. "In order to get lynched Day 2" is not even close to a reasonable reason.)

[Empking]

Also, why not 2 masons a doc and a cop? If there are 4 scum (1 or 2 teams) there could definitely be 4 town power roles.

If its 2:2:9 then that's still broken in favour of the town. If its 4:9 then that's ridiculous. (Also its less the number of power roles as much of the strength and the numbers of confirmed townies.)

You claimed to try and stop your wagon. Scum would do that for the same reason town would.

I said ""In order to get lynched Day 2" is not even close to a reasonable reason". Try again. (I know that 1. I'll be nightkilled 2. When it comes down to it I can claim my partner. Scum know neither of those reasons.)

Can you show anywhere YOU or mongoose breadcrumbed that wouldn't out your partner?

I'm afraid I cannot.

[Empking]

There is no motive for scum to claim mason. Scum would rather draw the lynch today rather than allow us the chance to lynch his buddy today.

[Empking]

honestly, I'm not sure if I believe it. He keeps saying that there's no scum motivation, but people have pointed out scum motivation several times. In fact, if there were no scum motivation for claiming mason, that in itself would be a scum motivation for claiming mason, because no town would expect scum to do it (ergo wifom). And more importantly, he just isn't fitting into what I've seen of town Emp.

No. If you claim mason as scum then you're only going to delay your lynch (Unless you think Mongoose fake breadcrumb'd hisson partner). There is no scum motive to delay your lynch ergo there is no scum motive to claim mason.ma

[Empking]

Quote it. And just quote it. (No. "I HATE this attitude where I have to quote myself. This barbaric feeling tears out my very soul. Feel sorry for me my townies. Feel sorry for me.")

[Empking]

Nor do I want an excerpt from War and Peace or any of your other scum tactics to look town.

[Empking]

but I don’t get how, say, his wall on the town v Saint is scum trying to mislead.

It tries to make Saint look scummier than he is with his ignorance on why people are voting him) by presenting all the arguments against Saint in an easy to see form despit the large numbers of town members (and its the scum's tactic of choice) that are almost deliberately (or actually deliberately in Nameless and King's case) obscuring their point.

[Empking]

Ignore my Neko case. King is the scum on Saint's lynch. The vote count I looked at isn't representative.

[Empking]

*sigh*

Didn't I say no "woe is me" stuff.

The reason is an attempt to get some mislynches off before the scum dies. I've given this reason multiple times to counter your claim that there is no scum motivation to claim Mason.

Town is more accurate before scum kills off the accurate players!!!

Your "town not giving full reasons" as a reason Nameless is scummy is horribly hypocritical. .

When did I say that?

[Empking]

...

Your "town not giving full reasons" as a reason Nameless is scummy is horribly hypocritical. .

When did I say that?

but I don’t get how, say, his wall on the town v Saint is scum trying to mislead.

It tries to make Saint look scummier than he is with his ignorance on why people are voting him) by presenting all the arguments against Saint in an easy to see form

despit the large numbers of town members (and its the scum's tactic of choice) that are almost deliberately (or actually deliberately in Nameless and King's case) obscuring their point.

So nowhere then?

And who freaking cares about town accuracy? It has absolutely nothing to do with scum desperately attempting to gain a mislynch or two before they die. Like, literally irrelevant to the discussion.

This is so obvious scum it hurts.

"Town's accuracy is irrelevant to whether or not town will correctly lynch or not."

You realize that when WOMC's replacement comes you'll be caught out, right?

[Empking]

This is so obvious scum it hurts.

"Town's accuracy is irrelevant to whether or not town will correctly lynch or not."

You realize that when WOMC's replacement comes you'll be caught out, right?

Misrep, I sad it had nothing to do with scum motivation for

attempting

to get a mislynch. You are ignoring that there is even a

possibility

for scum to do so by saying that it would be unlikely to succeed.

This is just nonsensical. It doesn't matter if we hit scum day 1 or day 2. The scum doesn't benefit if they manage to mislynch day one if they guarantee getting lynched Day 2.

Although since its seems pretty obvious that neither I nor Nameless will be lynched today it seems like you are correct in your assessment that it will fail. Also, what does WOMC being replaced have to do with me being "caught out"?

A replacement will read through this thread without a blinder on. You're obv scum. Put 2 and 2 together and you get four.

[Empking]

This is just nonsensical. It doesn't matter if we hit scum day 1 or day 2. The scum doesn't benefit if they manage to mislynch day one if they guarantee getting lynched Day 2.

They do if they were gonna get lynched day 1 anyway. And considering we are using you as the scum in this example and you are at L-1...

No because we're back to that "Town will be more accurate today than tommorrow"

[Empking]

Swift: King is trying to convince the town that the Mafia gain some super powers if town dies before them rather than after them. Do you agree with this hypothesis?

Unvote

Vote: King

[Empking]

Don't give him the "tunneling" excuse. He's active lurking. No two ways about it.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Nameless

- Compromise.

I think Saint is almost certainly town (I mean look at the wagon on him. Just look at it.) Which meansd when it comers down to it I'd much prefer an mb lynch.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Nameless

- Compromise.

I think Saint is almost certainly town (I mean look at the wagon on him. Just look at it.) Which meansd when it comers down to it I'd much prefer an mb lynch.

Compromising with one guy is barely a compromise, an actual compromise would have you voting for someone a couple other people are actually suspicious of, not just one of the people you arbitrarily declared scum.

Hmmm. No.

Your refusal to vote Saint because of who is voting for him is also noted, as well as stupid since we don't even know if there are two scum-teams or not.

Yes because Mini Normals are rife with multiple scum teams.

Seriously, how is this entire town so stupid to not realize you're scum.

"I am going to spout utter nonsense."
"Now I'm going to active lurk for 10 posts."
"Now I'm going at great lengths to protect myself from the consequences from lynching a mason."
"Oh? Public support is leaving from Empking's wagon, well one mislynch is as good as another."

Actually, what happened to your epic post for why I'm scum? No longer fruitful for your scum aims?

[Empking]

te

Vote: mb[/b]

I'm not suire I'll be asctive on Thursday.

[Empking]

I am not masons with you. I presumed you'd side were me because King is obv scum.

[Empking]

Question: Say it is an hour before deadline, and there are 6 votes on me... Would it be a good idea to self hammer to avoid a no-lynch (I would guess yes, but I want to check just in case...)?

IYes, I've lost a mini normal because everyone was focused on the player who should've been lynched day 1 allowing the scum to walk to victory. (Hey, Neko!)

[Empking]

Implosion: You know that period of time where King revealed his true scum colours and decided to active lurk and trick people into thinking he was town? Why do you think King did that?

[Empking]

Noon.

[Empking]

Though I despise Saint's last post I'm still leaning town. Nameless at the end of D1 pips King for the scummiest player.

Vote: Nameless

[Empking]

I think one of Saint and Nameless needs to be the lynch today. They're both being very scummy but it certainally does not feel like bussing. I'd like a Nameless lynch because not only is he the scummiest but his flip give a larger amount of information with regards to King.

[Empking]

@Empking: How would a Nameless flip inform us re: KTS? I don’t disagree that a Nameless lynch could be quite informative, but I’m not seeing the KTS connection jump out at me.

Its probably more informative to me personally rather than general. If Nameless flipped scum then (due in part to the wagons they support) then I wouldn't settle for anything other than a King lynch. If Nameless flip town then I should probably reevaluate my reads.

[Empking]

Empking: Reasons?

As yesterday along with the hint of knowledge of mb's alignment yesterday.

[Empking]

Emp-- earlier you said you were still leaning town on Saint, now you say either he or nameless needs to be lynched. Why the sudden change in reads, when you seemed so positive he was town yesterday?

I still am leaning town on him but I think that leaning is slowly dimishing and we'll also get a lot of information from his lynch. If Saint was scum then (to my mind) Nameless and King would be kind of cleared.

The reason I'm no longer positive that he's town is 1. His posts today are scummier than his posts yesterday 2. The scum team isn't Saint, King and Nameless and I was working off the theory (yesterday) that King and Nameless were the scum.

[Empking]

@Empking: How would Saint flipping scum clear Nameless and KTS? Is it just that you don’t think scum would bus their scumchum that hard, or do you have other reasons?

Yeah I just don't see it as a bus.

[Empking]

I've rethought this game. I think I may have tunelled. When taking into account the fact that scum found me useful enough to outweigh my masonness I'm going to say:

Unvote

Vote: Saint

L-1

[Empking]

Yoshi, how about you hop on the Saint wagon and put him at L-1? After he flips scum, we'll have an incredibly solid case to push against implosion tomorrow.

And if he flips town, maybe we can get more steam behind your wagon. Maybe one of your buddies will even bus you for us.

Nobody hammer. He hasn't claimed as far as I remember.

He claimed VT yesterday.

[Empking]

Empking, will your partner be claiming today?

He will not.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. I think that I'm going to hop back onto the Nameless train.

Vote:Nameless

[Empking]

Empking, will your partner be claiming today?

He will not.

Why not?

That's not the pro-town thing to do.

[Empking]

Set: Its not conclusive but cops need to be wary of giving strong reads.

[Empking]

Yeah thinking about it I can definitely accept Iece having investingated Implosion.

Unvote

Vote: Implosion

[Empking]

I agree with what a few of the others have been saying now is the time for Empking mason buddy to reveal if there is one if EMP is a mason he is a lock for the kill tonight and that leaves us in very bad position if we then get to mylo or lylo with two people claiming to be a mason partner and no way of knowing which person is the real mason.

Yes because breadcrumbs don't exist.

[Empking]

That's L-1 (and Swift, you should have noted that when you voted). Nobody hammer Implosion until he has a chance to refute the case and/or claim.

Also, I am not Emp's mason buddy.

OK, if Implosion flips scum then I'm gunning for you like hell.

1. You're subtle protection of Implosion.
2. Your further protection of Implosion.
3. Trying to SUBTLY out my buddy.

Can somebody explain how giving the scum a choice between whether they kill me or my buddy is a good thing?

[Empking]

Emp: The "I am not Emp's mason buddy" was in response to Nameless' insinuation that Imp, Neko, Zdenek, or I was lying about our status. I think I have actually been far less vehement in demanding that your buddy out him/herself than other players have been.

AKA I was being subtle.
AKA I was being sneaky.
AKA I am scum.

[Empking]

It's the rest of D2 that makes less sense with a guilty-implosion result. He is quite happy to switch to a Saint vote for the remainder of the day. He makes frequent references to a likely Saint-implosion team, but he never really pushes to move back to an implosion lynch.

Have you been a Cop before? That doesn't seem that unlikely to me.

[Empking]

OK. Scum has manipulated this town too well clearly. I fakeclaimed Mason in order to attempt to draw the scum's night kill.

[Empking]

Emp, what was your plan if you made it to lylo?

My plan was not to make it to Lylo. That's why I made my post towards Yoshi, in order to scare him into nightkilling me.

Oh yeah I missed you question befotre; Iece probably didn't expect to be nightkilled so he was probably fine with leaving it for another day.

[Empking]

Oh yeah can we please lynch Imp today. He was clearly Iece's Cop target and is clearly scum.

[Empking]

This is pretty much all the evidence necessary... if you're scummy enough to get the first giant bandwagon on day one, it doesn't exactly make sense to think that you can draw the nightkill by claiming mason, a role that only helps the town by confirming you as town to one other person.

er... not really?

[Empking]

Nameless:

That's L-1 (and Swift, you should have noted that when you voted). Nobody hammer Implosion until he has a chance to refute the case and/or claim.

Also, I am not Emp's mason buddy.

OK, if Implosion flips scum then I'm gunning for you like hell.

1. You're subtle protection of Implosion.
2. Your further protection of Implosion.
3. Trying to SUBTLY out my buddy.

Can somebody explain how giving the scum a choice between whether they kill me or my buddy is a good thing?