Mini 1126 - Game over - Was Averagely Suspicious saved?
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bvoigt
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Ugh, I'm having trouble getting definite reads in this game. Erratus Apathos is my strongest town read, because scum would have no reason to announce that they weren't voting to start the day. I also feel that subgenius is a townie getting attacked for poor play rather than scummy play.
Wikkiden is probably scum. EA's #367 is a good catch; "I truly didn't count the votes" is clearly a lie after saying, "Oh yes. My vote sucks. Along with the six other people voting for him."
Snake Eyes is another scumread. He has "a strong scum read" on Bill for "going after all the really obvious targets." But Bill was the biggest wagon when SE voted for him, so wouldn't Bill himself be the most obvious target?
I know this a pretty lousy catch-up post, but I find more stuff to comment on when I'm not reading several pages at a time. Plus, I think we've had enough wallposts for one game.
VOTE: wikkiden-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Town reads are kind of difficult to explain, but this is one example of what I mean:Erratus Apathos wrote:
Why do you think he's town?bvoigt wrote:I also feel that subgenius is a townie getting attacked for poor play rather than scummy play.
It's not good play because those tells have been obsolete for years. However, it shows a town motivation because he's taking the time to read an article on how to find the scum.subgenius wrote:3. Honestly, I haven't played in awhile, and what you're saying about Zito type comments might be true. Although it is scumtell #5 according to https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ding_Mafia. I'll readily admit that I haven't played or read as many games as you probably have so it's entirely possible I'm way off base on this one.-
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Whatever, I don't know how to explain it but subgenius is town.GreyICE wrote:True, I really can't think of a scum motivation for reading an article on scumtells and memorizing it.
Wait...
He looks like scum. ISO #13 bugs me because right after a votecount, he supports the second-largest wagon and adds to the largest wagon. I also don't like his latest post. It reads to me like, "I'm not going to take my vote off of the bandwagon, but I'm going to set up the next lynch once Sub flips town."Papa Zito wrote:Really interested in your opinion of Barry plz.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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IMO, the obvious targets usually are the worst players, so those 2 points mean pretty much the same thing to me.Snake Eyes wrote:
"Nice job" using quotation marks from different sentences in different posts to prove a point you want to make instead of one that actually exists! Here's the full sentence:bvoigt wrote:Snake Eyes is another scumread. He has "a strong scum read" on Bill for "going after all the really obvious targets." But Bill was the biggest wagon when SE voted for him, so wouldn't Bill himself be the most obvious target?Snake Eyes wrote:I'm more concerned with you going after all the really obvious targets and generally attacking bad play rather than finding scum.
He wasn't lurking at the time, so that didn't really have any effect on your original vote.Snake Eyes wrote:Most of my scumread comes indeed from the last part that you left out and his subsequent lurking. It looked like he was making just a cursory attempt at scumhunting by pointing out the mistakes and bad plays people made and then pretended they were all some major scumtells, when they really looked more like newbie mistakes.
It doesn't matter if he's not the biggest wagon anymore. It was scummy for you to vote the most obvious target for "going after all the really obvious targets and generally attacking bad play rather than finding scum."Snake Eyes wrote:As for me going for the biggest wagon, is that supposed to be scummy? I voted him the first chance I got after the game started. Moreover, am I still supposed to be going after the most obvious target? Seems to me that would be subgenius, and I would much prefer a Bill lynch over sub lynch. This is a bad case.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Yeah.Snake Eyes wrote:
So it's the perceived hypocrisy that's your issue? Seems like a pretty petty point to me but fair enough.bvoigt wrote:It was scummy for you to vote the most obvious target for "going after all the really obvious targets and generally attacking bad play rather than finding scum."
I disagree, because once Bill called him out for it, wikki responded:Snake Eyes wrote:I take it you have more reason to suspect wikkiden than you wrote earlier since you're still voting for him? Or do you disagree with me on EA's catch?
At least to me, this makes it sound like he knew the number of votes, and miscounted.wikkiden wrote:@the 5 other people thing, excuse me for misspeaking. I wasn't aware that human beings were expected to never make mistakes nowadays. >.<-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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No.GreyICE wrote:
The world will rejoice if you add some damn content to this thread.bvoigt wrote:
What do you mean? SE doesn't agree with Erratus's catch, but I do.Barry Allen wrote:@ bvoigt - if you disagree with SE on wikki, why is your vote still on wikki? I don't get that.
Your ISO is failure, absurdity and one liners.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Someone said that Rob's poor cases are a scumtell. But with posts like these, I really don't think this wagon is going to get a scum lynched. I'm sticking with my wiki/penpen vote for now, although Barry would also be a good vote after looking at Papa Zito's ISO #19.penpen wrote:Papa Zito wanted my top 3 so here goes:
1. RobCapone for his sarcasm, also because of what GreyICE pointed out earlier this page about him jumping to Conclusions.
2. Barry Allen Its just a gut feeling.
3. Snake Eyes seems like to me he has been lurking a bit.
Vote:RobCapone-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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EA mentioned this already, but I do not like this post at all. You totally ignored his actual case, and basically used self-meta to clear yourself. What's your response to his point about Ashblade? Why did you call him scum in one post and obvtown in another?GreyICE wrote:
*snort*Erratus Apathos wrote:
I thought you said you weren't giving up?RobCapone wrote:btw I am going to bed, if I wake up to being L-1 I will hammer myself as town and not bat an eye lash.
my record already shows I will do it, so remove this wagon on me or be prepared for the most epic fail of all times.
GreyICE is probably scum. Not long after the substrike wagon starts losing steam, he just silently slips off for a Rob vote. After all the heavy rhetoric Grey used on substrike, if he changed his read I would expect him to say something about it, and if he didn't change his read, I wouldn't expect him to jump off it for a weak-ass case on Rob. On top of that, there is his ridiculously ridiculous waffle on Ashblade:
GreyICE wrote:Ashblade, not saying you haven't found scum, but my god that was such a scumpost.GreyICE wrote:(sorry, Ashblade is just too town. It might be one of his scum talents, but if it is, he's got me fooled).
If I'm scum I make a lot more sense and read a lot more town. It's really easy when I KNOW all the alignments, I don't have to change my reads or move my vote much because who cares? I'm getting a townie lynched.
If I'm town I actually have to make the best lynch possible, the one I think most likely to hit scum.
Now Rob's claim... huh. I'm so not sure what to say. Did you breadcrumb it anywhere?
Barry and Bill were the two most blatant wagoners. By that, I mean that they joined both of the wagons fairly late. And so far, I haven't really noticed anything scummy about Bill, whereas Barry has looked slightly scummy. I'll address penpen in my next post.subgenius wrote:
Why Barry out of the five other people on that list?bvoigt wrote:I'm sticking with my wiki/penpen vote for now, although Barry would also be a good vote after looking at Papa Zito's ISO #19.
It seems like penpen is as good as a no-vote if you're not going to put his feet to the fire a little bit.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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OK...penpen is looking like one of those players who always survives to endgame because the town won't lynch him, and scum won't NK him. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm going to tell you right now that if we were both in 3-person LyLo, I would vote for him (assuming nothing drastic happens, but you know what I mean). We're going to have to lynch him eventually, so why not today?
This post is ironic and ridiculous. No offense, but your scumhunting has been extremely poor. If you're town, and not scumhunting very well, how is poor scumhunting a scumtell?penpen wrote:I've decided to put my vote back on Rob. I don't think he is doing a very good job scum hunting even though he is posting a lot.
Vote:RobCapone
What caused your change of opinion on Rob?penpen wrote:I see rob now as being as PRO Town as Papa Zito and everyone knows papa zito is pro town.
What does this even mean?penpen wrote:
I think the Pie is a lie also. Which means he is misrepresenting the pie.Barry Allen wrote:Pie is OK - but not cake.....the cake is a lie...
And I think that is scummy.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Hopefully, penpen will answer my questions soon.
For those who think I'm trying to get a VI policy lynch, I'm not. I'm trying to get a scum-VI lynched. wikkiden was shown to be lying scum, and penpen has done nothing pro-town. He's expressed suspicion of ~6 people (half the game, in other words), and his Rob vote in ISO #12 was especially bad. Oh and Snake Eyes, you can check my posts from yesterday. This was the only game I had time to post in.
Please show me what about Ashblade's play made you change your mind about him.GreyICE wrote:
So not only are you posting garbage, you're not even reading the damn thread and blatantly sheeping others cases?bvoigt wrote:
EA mentioned this already, but I do not like this post at all. You totally ignored his actual case, and basically used self-meta to clear yourself. What's your response to his point about Ashblade? Why did you call him scum in one post and obvtown in another?
Vote:bvoight
Maybe if you put one lick of effort into the thread you'd have done one single thing this thread that wasn't scummy. But you haven't. If we don't lynch you someday, you're still going to be alive at LyLo, because either you're scum, or you're town so dumb that you CAN'T EVEN READ THE THREAD.-
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Why aren't you doing anything about this read? Lulz.subgenius wrote:Still following the GreyICE wagon, and also find his refusal to explain some very obvious contradictions and flip-flops quite scummy.
Hey Grey, if you have a scumread on penpen, then why do you say I don't have a decent reason to vote him?-
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Wait a second...were you saying that Ashblade was scumposting, or subgenius was scumposting?GreyICE wrote:There's questions I care to answer from scum?
Ashblade, not saying you haven't found scum, butmy god that was such a scumpost. Hey Subsy, if there's so little "town" motivations for my behavior, shouldn't your vote be on me? Or are you just casting suspicion around on people who are pushing your wagon?-
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When penpen logs in and answers my questions.RobCapone wrote:hey bvoight, when can we expect more content from you instead of you just cherry picking things to talk about?
Apparently you aren't reading, either. See post #661.GreyICE wrote:When the fuck did I ever call Ashblade scum, you misrepresenting scumbag?
I didn't. You're lazy and trying to push a case through misrepresentation. That's worse than Rob - Rob could actually think that he's fucking reading when he's being that stupid. You? I see no reason that you would be that lazy from your other games.
So what's going on bvoight? Did you fall on your head recently? Or did you pull a red pm?-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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(I wrote this overnight. It's an annoying wall-of-text, but since you guys have been asking for more content, and pressure on more than one suspect, here you go.)
Nowcan we lynch penpen? I was going to give him a chance to answer a few questions before I made my case, but if he can't even find them....
I've already been over wikkiden's slip, but here it is again:
wikkiden wrote:Oh yes. My vote sucks. Along with the six other people voting for him.
In my eyes, the second quote is clearly a lie, and town would have no reason to lie in that situation. Snake Eyes said that it's not valid because there were actually only 5 other votes. However, if it was just a reactionary post, and wikkiden simply had a general idea that there were several votes, why did he say this?wikkiden wrote:I know no one will believe me, but I truly didn't count the votes, nor did it occur to me how serious my voting would be.
It looks to me like hewikkiden wrote:@the 5 other people thing, excuse me for misspeaking. I wasn't aware that human beings were expected to never make mistakes nowadays. >.<didcount the number of votes, just incorrectly.
This post by penpen is especially bad. I don't think I have to prove to anyone that his scumhunting has been lousy. It does not make any sense for a townie to make this vote when they've done the same thing. Rather, I think it's scum looking for any excuse to place a vote on the biggest wagon.penpen wrote:I've decided to put my vote back on Rob. I don't think he is doing a very good job scum hunting even though he is posting a lot.
Vote:RobCapone
The worst part of penpen's play, though, is that he's literally expressed suspicion of, or voted for, 8 different people: RobCapone, Barry Allen, Snake Eyes, subgenius, Hiraki, Bill McQuill, Erratus Apathos, and GreyICE. This looks like someone who is trying to get anyone besides himself killed, rather than someone who is looking for scum.
So, penpen is still my first choice for a lynch. I'd be happy to lynch Barry as well, though. He's placed mid-to-late votes on several major wagons: Erratus Apathos, subgenius, and GreyICE.
As I've mentioned, I don't like this post because it stays with the vote on subgenius, but sets up Bill to be the next lynch when Sub presumably flips town. He eventually changed his vote, but not untilBarry Allen wrote:There are actually two things that make me worry about my vote for sub.
1. Finding out that sub is actually playing with a "list-o-scumtells" that can actually explain his behavior, even though those scumtells are outdated. GreyICE could be right that using the list isn't a guarantee of affiliation, but it does at least explain a lot about how sub is playing.
2. Bill's vote - and here's why. Other players already noted Bill fading from the thread for quite a period of time as the heat ramped up on sub. When called out on his absence, Bill comes back with a wall-o-text, and immediately votes the only other player with more votes than himself, taking said player (sub) to L-1. This could be a townie trying to appeal to the town with action after being called for inactivity - or it could be maf trying to move us to a quicker lynch in order to keep the heat off himself. @ Bill - if that sounds "negative", sorry but I don't know how to put this more positively...no, wait, how about this...I am "positive" that this looks a bit scummy.
Sub - your own posts haven't helped you. You've mostly lashed out at me and a couple of other folks, with some strained logic and implied motivations - but again if you are using JEEP's list for scumtells it is possible that you are inexperienced enough that this is just how you post (you've been on the site for a long time but IIRC haven't played much lately - someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this). But, with EA taking his vote off you we are back to L-2, meaning we do have time to talk more. Bill's vote isn't enough to take my own vote off you, but it is enough that I want to hear more before we do a quickhammer here.afterthe Sub wagon fell apart:
Note that he doesn't have any new reasons for disliking his vote...the only thing that has changed is the size of the wagon. Once again, it really looks like Barry is just trying to help encourage wagons and keep himself alive.Barry Allen wrote:A lot has happened since I was last on thread...let me do this first, as I already promised to do some serious thinking about my sub case...
VOTE: UNVOTE
Subs - you didn't convince me with the "No YOU are" posts...but again two things nagged at me. First was knowing you were using that old guide, which really explained your posts and made it plausible that you were playing with less actual playing experience than would seem likely given when you joined the site. The second is now even more apparent to me...the only other vote for you is from Bill, and I've been looking very dimly at Bill for some time (first trying to choose between Bill and wikki, and later Bill and you).
VOTE: penpen-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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What do you mean? Even on Day 1, you should have at least a general idea of your suspicions.penpen wrote:bvoigt wrote:
OK, that makes 9 people he's expressed suspicion of. penpen, what do you have to say about the accusation that you're basically just flinging random votes around?penpen wrote:Vote: Papa Zito
For convincing me to vote to lynch a townie.
Well I don't see anything wrong with that since most of what you are talking about is Day 1.-
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@mozamis: Don't discuss ongoing games.
Good catch. IIRC, Papa Zito was saying that Ashblade was probably a vig kill, so this makes him very likely to be town.subgenius wrote:Actually, I just re-read the flavor from D1 and D2, and there is some info to be found:
There was a note found next to the nameless murder victim of N0 which read, "You're next." There was an identical note found next to Ashblade. There was no note found with Snake Eyes.
This would lead me to believe that Ashblade was the mafia NK and Snake Eyes was hit by either a vig, a serial killer, or a non-note leaving second scum faction. I'm guessing SK.
Oh, really? Why?penpen wrote:Well alright how about bvoigt, he seems to be doing the whole active lurking thing too. And I think his case on me and Barry are complete bullshit.-
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Barry, it often seems like you go out of your way to avoid being accused of OMGUS. Here's a townie thought process: this might get me accused of OMGUS, but if he's scum, it will be worth it. Here's a scum thought process: this might get me accused of OMGUS, so I'm going to avoid it.
BTW, I'm fairly sure Papa Zito is town.-
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OK, this is getting ridiculous. Your top suspects for all of Day 1 were Rob and Bill. Now, you're actually voting someone for voting Bill, and Rob doesn't even appear to be on your radar anymore.Hiraki wrote:Because Bill honestly wasn't that bad. The only reasoning I can see for half of this wagon is that he's inactive. That's not a very good reason at all. EA, on the otherhand, just randomly sees Bill as a target. Scum bells should've rung long ago.
UNVOTE: Barry Allen
VOTE: Hiraki
@EA: Why do you think Barry is town?-
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IIRC, they were your only non-random votes for the entire day.Hiraki wrote:
I stopped reading there.bvi wrote:OK, this is getting ridiculous. Your top suspects for all of Day 1 were Rob and Bill
The problem wasn't that your reads changed, it was how drastically your reads changed. Did anyone that you voted D1 do anything drastically different D2?[/quote]EA wrote:Wow, it's like reads change over time! What an amazing discovery Magellan!
This is rather ironic and contradictory. Your reads also changed drastically from D1 to D2.-
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IIRC, they were your only non-random votes for the entire day.Hiraki wrote:
I stopped reading there.bvi wrote:OK, this is getting ridiculous. Your top suspects for all of Day 1 were Rob and Bill
This is rather ironic and contradictory. Your reads also changed drastically from D1 to D2.Hiraki wrote:
The problem wasn't that your reads changed, it was how drastically your reads changed. Did anyone that you voted D1 do anything drastically different D2?EA wrote:Wow, it's like reads change over time! What an amazing discovery Magellan!-
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1. It's pretty unreasonable to say that the only people you voted weren't actually your main suspects.Hiraki wrote:1) This shows that you'vereallybeen reading the thread.
2) Have you ever heard of a reaction test?(On iPod so no quotes.)
The problem with mine is that no one reacted.
2. So, your reaction tests lasted the entire day?-
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No, I'm lazy. Just spell it out for me, please.Hiraki wrote:1. Can you read the thread before I rage?
Not really, but it wasn't lousy enough to comment on. Still, once you realized that no one was commenting, why did you hold onto the vote for a long time, and even come back to it late in the day?Hiraki wrote:2. Not sure what you're trying to get by this question. I don't think Bill is scum, but I made the case and vote as a test. No one said anything, which isquitealerting. Could you really call my case on Bill good?-
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Um...what? That post expresses suspicion of Rob. I'm saying that you've ignored your top suspects (Bill and Rob) from D1.Hiraki wrote:
Perfect. You just need to stop assuming and start looking.bvi wrote:No, I'm lazy. Just spell it out for me, please.
#34 of my ISO should be satisfactory.
If you didn't believe in your Bill vote, it doesn't seem pro-town to hold onto it for so long. Obviously, we have to lynch scum to win. It doesn't look like that was your main priority.Hiraki wrote:
Because I wanted to see if someone would be alert. Notice. Y'know that kind of stuff.bvi wrote:Not really, but it wasn't lousy enough to comment on. Still, once you realized that no one was commenting, why did you hold onto the vote for a long time, and even come back to it late in the day?-
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Ah, you're just ignoring him because he's a claimed PR?Hiraki wrote:
Yuck. I meant 35. My bad.bvi wrote:Um...what? That post expresses suspicion of Rob. I'm saying that you've ignored your top suspects (Bill and Rob) from D1.
You voted Bill for a while, and then you said that he "honestly wasn't that bad." Explain to me what I've been missing.Hiraki wrote:
I'll laugh, and take this one as a joke. Or, perhaps this means you really need to read.bvi wrote:If you didn't believe in your Bill vote, it doesn't seem pro-town to hold onto it for so long. Obviously, we have to lynch scum to win. It doesn't look like that was your main priority.-
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This is a terrible defense.Hiraki wrote:1. Excuse. Sigh.
2. So you don't like my tone. Hmmzorz.
3. Can you re-read that sentence? You sound like a whining baby. I have done things all game, and just because I haven't done things that you've wanted me to do, doesn't mean that I have done absolutely nothing.
Wow. Let's lynch this guy.Hiraki wrote:And so therefore, I didn't go the easy way and buss Bill because um.
Well umm.
Dunno.
BTW, why do pod person and Bill both have the location "In a safe place"?-
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While I would like to know why their locations are the same, it's not really important, and definitely not productive for scumhunting. Also, you can open a new tab with File-New Tab, or Ctrl-T.mozamis wrote:In some ways, i hope its 5) and then WE CAN JUST MOVE ON! Otherwise we could be heading down a blind "bill mcquills alt" alley, which may not be productive for scum hunting.
@Barry: Were you writing #981 when sub posted #980?-
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QFT. Now, let's move on to actual scumhunting.subgenius wrote:My theory is that pod person is somebody's (probably not Bill's) gimmick account, and the gimmick is to replace into games and change the account's personal info to match the person who dropped out as much as possible.
For someone who usually likes to stick with his own opinions, Hiraki's change of mind seems rather odd from #1004 to #1011. It looks to me like once he realized there was a chance to get Pod lynched for a silly reason, he jumped on it.-
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That's my conclusion. Time to lynch him!subgenius wrote:@Hiraki
If you don't answer my questions, I'll be forced to assume that you have no reason to think that pod person is scummy and are voting him anyway in an obvious attempt to bolster the competing wagon. I would hope that anybody watching would arrive at the same conclusion.-
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With the anti-ninja feature, it's easy to quote a post that was made at the same time as yours. Plus, it looked like #981 took a while to write.Barry Allen wrote:
I did miss that question - but the question makes no sense, considering Ibvoigt wrote: @Barry: Were you writing #981 when sub posted #980?quoted sub's post 980 in my post 981, and my post was made nearly an hour later. I would have posted my questions for Pods anyway...and the fact that subshave questions struck me as odd.didn't
I did think making fun of pods "suspicion" of our GM was a good first take to point out why I don't take Pods very seriously - after all Pods took the spot of someone I've suspected of being scum for some time.
Anyway, the point I was getting at was, why didn't you post your questions for him right away? Since you made 2 fluff posts right before sub asked if you had questions, why did you wait to ask them until someone pressured you? It looks like you were just trying to appease him.-
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I meant that you were appeasing Sub after he asked if you had any questions. While I don't find your explanation very convincing, I guess it is a pretty minor point, so I'll let it go.Barry Allen wrote:@ bvoigt - I already replied to you in post 1073, where I stated:
"I did think making fun of pods "suspicion" of our GM was a good first take to point out why I don't take Pods very seriously - after all Pods took the spot of someone I've suspected of being scum for some time."
I was going to ask the questions of Pods no matter what - but that "suspicion" of our GM was either so LOL or so dumb that it needed to be pointed out. I don't think making fun of someone's really dumb post is "appeasing them", especially since I have consistently FoS'd Bill/Pods for quite some time now.
This post is an example of how terribly Hiraki is scumhunting. If pods isn't your top suspect (at least, it doesn't sound like he is), why do you still have your now-useless vote on him? Actually, who are your top suspects?Hiraki wrote:Pressure. I answered the other one somewhere. I'm still sure that it's Bill though.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Actually, I have a few minutes now. In case it is 2:1:4 right now, would it be beneficial to massclaim?
I'm feeling like subgenius, Papa, and Erratus are probably town, and Barry and AGar are probably scum. I'm still not sure about pod person, but if there is a 3rd scum, it's probably him.
I agree with Erratus that #1125 was bad. Sure, you decided not to hop on the Hiraki wagon, and you decided not to vote the tracker, but you were considering both of those possibilities.-
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As Sub said, your posting style wasn't the issue. The issue was that, despite considering a vote for Rob and Hiraki, you tried to cast others in a bad light because they did vote for Rob and Hiraki. I don't see why a townie would do that.Barry Allen wrote:@ bvoigt - again, simply pointing out that I've been consistently on Pods for some time. You may not like my posting style - but we've seen in this round that such a view has nothing to do with affiliation. No one was more rude, personal or insulting than Rob, who really was what he said he was (tracker).
Barry Allen wrote:refusing to join the easy Hiraki BW
These two quotations don't really match up. You didn't refuse to join the bandwagon, you decided between Hiraki and Pod.Barry Allen wrote:I've been trying to decide between Hiraki and Pods
This is an interesting point, but it's not enough to keep me from asubgenius wrote:Perversely, I'm beginning to lessen my scum read on you Barry, not because you've convinced me with anything that you've written, but because I'm starting to think that your utter inability to comprehend and address points about why you're scum is because you're completely sure of your town alignment and can't process why someone would think otherwise. It still irritates the bejesus out of me, though.
VOTE: Barry Allen-
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