Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[Maxous]

SC's(Surprise Carcinogeon) case against Regfan seems to be more about determining wheter or not he is anti-town rather than if he is mafia.

3. Under the misconception that it was a universally accepted fact that RVS is beneficial to town, I made the decision that refusing to do so is a scum-tell. Your argument has swayed my understanding. I consider refusing to do it to be anti-town, as it is still my opinion that you can get good information from RV(see pt.1), as it has been my experience that SOMETHING good comes of RVS. It is a slightly moot point at this stage though, as I think we've skipped entirely through RVS phase.

This looks like waffling to cover his tracks after being caught on the RVS scumtell point by Volkan. Then tried to pass it off as 'slightly moot' to brush it under the carpet.
____________________
____________________

that being said, vollkan is a MUCH better player...and I never can call it when he is scum..ever....and by the time I do figure it out, he has got the town wrapped around his finger so tightly (for whatever reason)..that he is almost unlynchable.

Lawl this is the definition of a WIFOM post
_____________________
_____________________

Pappums rat suspects tclawren becuase he did'nt participate in RVS. He was asked why do you think this scummy? His reponse is:

bold 2: general not joining in with the rest of the group. it doesnt make someone scum imo obviously, it just seems off.

So it's not scummy then, he just suspected him for the sake of it. Right after that:

I didn't join the RVS either, how come you have a HoS on him for that but not on me?

thanks for pointing that out for me.

hos regfan

Another suspicion just for the sake of suspecting somebody.

It seems like he does'nt actually suspect anybody he's just pretending to do so because they stood out a little by following the crowd with the RVS - by the way from my experience following the crowd is what the mafia tend to do not the town.
He would be top of my list thus far.

[Maxous]

@Subgenius: You are suspicious of anyone that has'nt posted yet? It has been around a day and as you said they could easily be doing anything.

That comes across as a filler comment.

[Maxous]

@Magnetic: Why do you have a "lock on" on those 2 that voted SC.

@Subgenius: Why did you want bgg to answer the questions? Are you reading anything from people's answers here?

this game has been bringing teh lulz so far. subgenious... it was an rvs vote obviously. everyone else: the hos on token wasnt LIEK OMGZ HE R TEH SCUMZORZ, it wasnt even really all that serious, i wanted to see how he would react with me calling him out for not rvs'ing.

Okay and what did you think of tcwlaren's reaction?

_________
_________

Honestly the scummiest looking person is Yura. Voting for Volkan for no reason, changing her mind after some derision from the town, the fact that her posts make literally no sense whatsoever. It's obvious she's bad at the game, but it's hard to tell if she's actually scum.

I'm thinking about voting for pappums (for mostly the same reasons posted above, especially for the fact that he didn't HoS Regfan at first when it was obvious to anyone actually reading that he didn't RV, but I would like to hear from a little bit more from him first.

I would also like to urge Magnetic to post some meaningful stuff. So for all you've done is post a whole bunch of filler, it looks really suspicious.

So the scummiest looking is Yura, but you can't really tell if she's scum because she is obviously bad at the game. Puting aside that small contradiction , is being 'bad' at this game a scumtell in your opinion?
And why think about voting pappums if the scummiest looking is Yura?

[Maxous]

I find it hard to beleive that Magnetic is telling the truth about his role as shown below he does'nt understand what the role does, I would like to think the moderator would clearly explain how it works.

I dunno. That's what it says.
I can protect someone at night, but if two or more groups attack the same person, my healing power won't work.
That gets us somewhere don't it?
Town's strong Doctor is there somewhere, i think.
I want you to unvote this instant.

[Maxous]

Sorry pressed 'submit' instead of 'preview'! Continuing..
Magnetic lied, then claimed he was only looking for reactions. Which is barely plausible *but* he then claims his weak doc role again, meaning his he definitly lying about something here. Therefore, I for one will no longer be able to trust him in this game so how can I beleive he is town.
VOTE: Magnetic

As for Yura from my experience it's not unheard of for a new town to want to avoid getting lynched even if it's not helping the town. I.E. reacting badly to votes and suspicion. They simply don't want to die at all costs. That vote and unvote on Volkan was silly but she seems to be making

some effort

to ask people questions and suspect others. I would'nt be as sure of a Yura lynch.

[Maxous]

Sounds rather pointless unless somebody has something specific they want to talk about.
Bgg you are saying we should talk. Okay, but talk about what or who? Espically since you're saying we should lynch Magnetic anyway. There is no difference to lynching him now or in 2 weeks.
The only reason to extend the day would be for the possibilty of the town changing thier minds and pick a better candidate to lynch. I'm quite comfortable with the candidate we have right now - keeping around someone who has blatantly lied is not pratical IMO.

[Maxous]

If you have a question you simply need to ask >_>

What Bgg was saying was we should keep the day as long as possible that's better for the town, without stating anything to talk about. That's rather pointless and leads to comments such as Subgenius' one . I don't think anybody is realistically going to say I disagree with him being hammered.
This is'nt a case based on somebody's analysis of his posts, determining them scummy and then people pushing a bandwagon through that can be disagreed with. He flat out lied and Subgenius summed it up with a) and b) comment. Both has to go.

But fine, I was hasty in my call for the day to be finished since SC and tclawren wants to question Bgg - Who has said basically nothing, apart from that 'extend the day' gimmick.
__________
__________
In related news Pappums Rat still looks scummy to me, he has simply not answered any questions dircted towards him(and reacted like this to suspicions) and I did'nt like his attempt to make a link between SC and Yura over nothing.
See also: His reason to vote Yura is because he is annoying - not being mafia.

[Maxous]

As I stated earlier I would of answered the question simply because it was asked regardless of the number of votes on me.
So there's no need to sidetrack the discussion about the effectiveness of pressure votes.

[Maxous]

I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.

Anybody in particular? No harm, but that's quite a broad statement.


@SC: Why are you becoming more confident in your Yura vote? Because of his vote? I did'nt quite get that one.

[Maxous]

Pappums rat did and said little. I find it more likely he was shot by a town-aligned vig unless the mafia/SK beleived he was keeping a low profile as he had an important power role.
2 mafia groups seem unlikely IMO.

Tcwlaren was growing increasingly suspicious of bgg during the twilight - mentioned here
Truant completely skipped over that in this post

While I am at it,
@: Regfan why is'nt Bgg included in your list here?

Even if you're scum, you don't just go do everything that town wouldn't do.
If somebody does something that town normally wouldn't do, I don't automatically assume that that person must be scum, because scum would have no reason to do such a thing.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that I came up with this idea because I wanted to gain credibility.
But that wasn't the reason that I did not vote him. On the contrary, I had thought that he the he was, indeed, scum. I wanted to gain information on other players before we lynched him.

I was even thinking of keeping him alive as a kind-of scum-pet. Of course, if we had kept the day going, we may have found real scum, maybe even the SK. Not to mention the fact that we would have found out that there was indeed two mafia groups by now, possibly (but probably not) having him confirmed.

The bolded part confuses me a lot :/

1) i don't know but since most people think it's 3 then ill go with that....and whats a ml?
3) i dont know either....

VOTE: CuriousKarmaDog
I suggest this because after looking back at everyones post, when everyone started to claim me as possible or actually scum ckd sided with me so i'm assuming

3 what? Mafia members? A ML is "mislynch" I.E. lynching a townsperson.
Could you further explain what your saying about CKD please?

im surprised tclawren didnt hammer

He was attempting to. It explains the 'unvoting incident'.

@ Truant: What 'hard evidence' is there for the case of Yura being scum?

[Maxous]

* Tclawren was growing...

Sorry, was lazy!

[Maxous]

Is it unusual on this forum for a stab not to represent a kill from a Serial killer? I.E. is it safe to assume that the shot was from the mafia and the stab was from a third party?
It's not going to be say, a shot from a vig and a stab from the mafia?

[Maxous]

@max, what unvoting incident

When tclawren temporarily unvoted Magnetic with the intention of having him lynched later.

What about this post really makes you think that he suspected bgg as much as he suspected pappum's?

My point is you based nearly your whole reasoning for voting Yura on tclawren's suspicion of her but you seem to dismiss his growing suspicion of bgg near the end.

Is there a reason I shouldn't ask the question?
Sure, if he actually had to answer it would make me seem like scum, but if he isn't going to tell me, then it's fairly obvious that it's not going to actually affect anything.

So he asked the question without expecting an answer and it is'nt scummy because he does'nt "have" to answer it?
It really looks like fishing for a reaction on night roles.
This coupled with his suspicion of 'everyone who voted Magnetic and ended the day early' but despite me asking, did'nt name anybody in particular as suspicious is making him look a likely mafia member at the moment

[Maxous]

Here's the issue. Taking andrew out of it since his was a RVS before magnetic's claim, there was 6 people that jumped on that vote withtin a day and hammered early. That is 6 out of 10 left. 6 people are the main suspects?

banned loser

– 7 (Andrew94, yura-chi, vollkan, Maxous, Truant, subgenius, Surprise_Carcinogen)

@Bgg: Who are you thinking of voting for today?

I'll agree that there are likely 2 or 3 scum that voted for magnetic,

If you had to pick out one or two who would you pick?

[Maxous]

Right so you are suspicious of SC and Subgenius. There was no need to play 'solve the riddle' with that.
___________
_____________

In fact, if we're going to analyze the magnetic wagon, I think it would be just as useful to argue that since it's unlikely that every scum player would have joined the lynch, either you, Regfan, or CKD is probably scum. I have a strong suspicion that it's you.

That is an interesting point. Come to think of it CKD also backed out of voting for Magnetic.

@Regfan: Why did you ask these questions to Magnetic here? Did you think it is still possible for him to be an actual doctor?

[Maxous]

It's much, much more likely in my mind that's he's just a townie who made a mistake and can't do anything to remedy it without looking worse. "Woops, made a mistake, sorry" at this point would look just as bad against him as anything else.

Which mistake? There is more than one charge on his rap sheet.
I am more concerned about his lack of initiative to find the mafia - in day 1 all he said was let's extend the day to gain more information. That does'nt hold up when he was'nt talking about anything except a theory debate on pressure. And this comment is weird post 228. Did he actually think Magnetic was mafia or not? It's hard to tell.
________
________

That being said Subgenius comment has made me have a bit of a rethink.
SC, what do you think of CKD's and Regfan's posts trying to question Magnetic about 'why he claimed and why did you do this?' etc. after his credibiltiy had been shot.

[Maxous]

Okay while I was away there has been a lot of discussion. I am going to split the content into seperate posts rather than one single post to hopefully make it easier for people to respond and reference to later if needed.
In the first one here I'll simply answer the two question directed to me.

That being said Subgenius comment has made me have a bit of a rethink.

Could you explain this?

I was referring to this comment. You might be onto to something there.

In fact, if we're going to analyze the magnetic wagon, I think it would be just as useful to argue that since

it's unlikely that every scum player would have joined the lynch, either you, Regfan, or CKD is probably scum.

I have a strong suspicion that it's you.

__________
_________

That being said Subgenius comment has made me have a bit of a rethink.
SC, what do you think of CKD's and Regfan's posts trying to question Magnetic about 'why he claimed and why did you do this?' etc. after his credibiltiy had been shot.

fuck SC, what do you think about it?

I think it's reasonable to suspect that at least one of the three of you delibratly started asking Magnetic questions about why he claimed like that in the knowledge that he was town to not look like bandwagoning, and to attempt to gain town points by not lynching the townsperson. The possibility is worth exploring anyway IMO.
Something like this for example

...why me out of everyone who is left?...I wasnt on the fucking townie lynch.

[Maxous]

Part deux: Andrew94 and SC

. and also at the end where he listed everyone as likely town.
and thus u hammered and you were WRONG. BUT U CONTINUED TO START THE DAY WITH A LEAD (PROB FAIL COS UR SCUM)

@Andrew94: Are you implying you would'nt of hammered Magnetic in that situation?

Andrew, you need to give your opinions on everything.

bgg1996 is oppourtunistic in attempting to lynch me. where have i said i refuse to post my opinions.

You have not said that until now.
Please reconsider. This is completely anti-town, and I will vote for you for it.

These 2 posts are your reaction to walls of text

Hmm, fair enough. I didn't really think it needed adressing, since I had given my justification afterwards, but if it helps: What is everybodies opinion on the D1 lynch?

On the flip side, what is everyone's opinion on Andrew's tunnel visioning and lack of content? Just so nobody call call 'omgus' on me later, I'd like to know a broader group of opinions.

1) Unavoidable
2) I'm willing to cut him slack provided he participates a bit more in the near future.

@ surprise, you my friend, had no case against me.
so far as i saw, your case started when i made a case on you. you said that i had 4 posts (a deflection). and wheres the actual case against me?

This looks plausible when combined with this post
SC's case against Andrew was in reaction to suspicion placed on him and he looked to attempt to discredit the suspicion by referring to Andrew's post count.

Referring to posts 325 and post 328.
SC - "absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored." does not equal giving somebody a list of things to talk about.
______________________
______________________

I do not agree with SC's case against Andrew. Andrew made a reasonable point about the possibility of SC deflecting and SC reacted by making a case against Andrew due to lurking. I don't remember SC mentioning Andrew before that.
This is not to say I agree with Andrew about SC being mafia. I'm still leaning town with SC for now.

I agree that Andrew could contribute more and therefore:
@Andrew94: I would like to know your suspects for mafia apart from SC

[Maxous]

Quick question before I continue:

Of course now I have to find somebody else to suspect.

Have you dropped your suspicions of SC and Subgenius?

[Maxous]

I plan on doing an ISO on CuriousKarmaDog, should be up within a few hours.

this comes out of fucking NO WHERE...this reeks of someone(s) thinking I am a threat and being directed to start pushing something on me...why me out of everyone who is left?...I wasnt on the fucking townie lynch....I know he has a "case" later...so I will wait till then.

1) "this comes out of fucking nowhere" - seems to be an attempt to discredit the case because he did'nt properly breadcrum it or something? Why should he of?
2) "Thinking I am a threat" - Seems like another attempt to discredit suspicions over nothing. A threat due to what?
3) "I was'nt on the fucking townie lynch" - Because I did'nt vote for Magnetic I should'nt be suspected.

So he posts the above on 3:22, and posts the below at 3:45…so it is fucking obvious he went into my “ISO” with the plan of painting me as scum

Yes he did, because he suspects you, which is why he brought it up in the first place.
_________

I did'nt really think Regfan had a good case from the start, and CKD simply pointed out why.
_______________

why would I help you?...as scum, why would "help you"? The only reason as scum I would defend (not help) you was because I thought you were going to be lynched and wanted to buy some town cred. but that is not what I doing...at all....my comment about it being a bad vote was more of an expression of doubt about vollkan’s alignment.

@CKD: What do you think of Vollkan's continued pursuit of Yura?

Vollkan. Take a step back, for your own sake. I had to back in D1 when I was tunneling on Reg without realizing it. You can't take apart everything a person says without eventually coming up with whatever it was you wanted to find anyway

interesting statement, did you call Reg out for this when he did this earlier in this day?

@CKD: What are you trying to imply with this statement?
__________________
___________________
I don't particulary agree with the points Regfan brought up gainst CKD but CKD's reaction does'nt come across very town-like. Instead of simply explaining himself he instead opts instead to attack and discredit Regfan and at the end votes for him.
I'm unsure here

I did'nt see scumtells in Regfan's response even though Vollkan was correct in pointing out the comment about "!!!!!!!!!".
That point looked like streching to make a case stick, but town tend to do this as well as mafia
______________________________
_______________________________

@SC: Which post? I apologise if I have missed it.

[Maxous]

That post you quoted was

after

this post when you voted for him and accused him of nothing answering the good long list

Alright, that's it

unvote. Vote: Andrew94

I gave you a good, long list of things you could give some opinion or another about,

and then you come in here and strawman(correct usage. Answer a different, but superficially similar question to the one asked) your way into self-righteousness. And I always keep an eye on lurkers, they just happen to get my attention when they start flimsy, pointless cases, against me or not. And you haven't SAID you refuse to post your opinions. You just HAVE failed to post your opinions.

[Maxous]

@ maxous, to your question, i wouldnt hammer as i even said i was gonna defend him due to him being a troll in my modded game
and i find that your fence sitting --> saying andrew94> surprise. then saying surprise still = leaning town read.
what the hell am i then? super town read?

1) That's fine but the rest of us could'nt just make the assumption that he was trolling. Your attempt to paint SC as scummy because he hammered Magnetic does'nt wash IMO
2) I think you may be town, that is all there is to it.

also, please look at my sig

I hate making this argument, but this is just...bad.

Do we really want somebody who openly admits to the fact that he'll skim through cases? It just doesn't seem town productive.

And I'll read through his prior post and give a reply in a second. I just really wanted to point this out

Not town productive does not equal mafia and this is'nt the first time you have attempted to blur that line looking for his lynch.

Another small problem I have is that you are, apparently, fos-ing maxous...for thinking you're town...And you're fos-ing Sub for a reason that, on the surface looks nice, but in practice is stretching at best. Currently thinking an Andrew/Yura team, or possibly one of the two is SK. Given their dialogue,

I'm thinking that Reg and CKD are likely both town,

but I haven't had more then one or two games with an SK before(And one of the setups was REALLY weird) so I'm not exactly sure how they read.

Any reason you changed your mind about CKD?

[Maxous]

Okay we're getting sidetracked again.

@Bgg: Is there anyone in mind that you plan to make accusations towards? I would like to hear them.
Never mind about any possible 'tunnelling', that phrase has been over-used in this game.

[Maxous]

Okay let's flip this then.

@Bgg: Who would be your biggest

town

reads? It can usually help in such situations, in fact you pointed out why a couple of posts ago =)

[Maxous]

There's no such thing as

too scummy to be town

since scumminess does not have an absolute value.

I'll make sure to NK you for that statement.

Putting aside why you would decide to kill Regfan when he's in the middle of your list...

did you shoot last night?

[Maxous]

Wow..that's kinda irrating lol.
@Bgg: You already claimed, the mafia are'nt idiots. Now did you kill pappums or tclawren?

3) Explicitly voting to add pressure

This is a scumtell now? Why did'nt you call CKD out on it earlier?

I agree with sub that hyprocisy is not a scumtell.
As for point 4) Why should she of had to be involved in previous discussion to agree with Sub's assement of Bgg? Otherwise what is the point of trying to persuade each-other about lynches?

[Maxous]

Fine.

VOTE: Bgg

My other suspects are SC, Truant and CKD. I was kinda waiting on CKD and Truant to respond but I guess we can go over them on day 3 provided they are still around.

[Maxous]

Alright I read over

Plan B

Unvote

VOTE: Truant

[Maxous]

^
I wanted to check something from earlier in the game, and while I was doing so I noticed something that I missed up until now.
I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt today.

@SC: As for Truant, his stance and subsequent vote for Yura was contradictory(it kinda looked like he was making it up) and as Sub pointed out he seems solely concerned with finding the SK.
Mafia tend to be more afraid/cautious of the SK(or any harmful third party) than the town do - it's natural, the mafia have lower numbers and therefore more to lose if one of them gets whacked.
I can go through it in greater detail if needed,later I guess.
It's late, I'm tired.

[Maxous]

I don't really have any other big sus for mafia but I do think he can be mafia and just planning when the night comes or he actually IS a sk planning his own kills. I just think he's more sk/vig because for some reason I just don't see him working with others...

He does'nt have any other suspects for Mafia but he's voting for Bgg.. for the lulz I guess.
I do think he can be mafia...or a SK..or a townsperson(vig).

..
he's just making this up as he goes along. ¬_¬

Screw it

unvote

VOTE: Yura-Chi

This is why I was hestitant to vote earlier, Sub. I get indecisive about lynches. :/

[Maxous]

Yeah I can understand the suspicion towards my 3 votes in quick succesion.
At first I was going to go with Bgg for reasons discussed such as his constant semantics defence, rolefishing question and the contradiction of who he wanted to kill/lynch (in particular vollkan and Regfan)
But as I said I noticed something(by accident actually =p) that I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for this day period.

So I went with Truant whom I am confident is a mafia member at this moment. As I explained to SC his stance and vote on Yura was quite contradictory and he seems too solely focused with finding the SK, something I associate the mafia with. (lower numbers, more risk etc. etc.)
I will go back to Truant if there is a realistic chance for him to be lynched.

It's just that Yura's latest posts about CKD was

so blatently

making thoughts and opinions up as she goes along, I'm not giving her the benefit of the doubt anymore. I don't see why a town would just make stuff up like that. She completely forgot her suspicion and vote on Bgg.

you ever played with me before?...I tend to get angry rather fast..espeically if I feel like I am getting attacked by a scum bag...exactly how I got my title...question though,

where did I not "explain" myself?

was there a question or point I didnt address? please point it out.

Was'nt quite what I meant.
'Simply explaining yourself' i.e. instead of just/solely explaining why you did X,Y and Z you also opted to discredit Regfan's suspicion of you and make a case for him being mafia. One that I did'nt agree with. It seemed like a mafia defence play.

To be fair I only skimmed through your latest posts in regards to Regfan so I'll see after that - Friday evening at the latest.

This is why I was hestitant to vote earlier, Sub. I get indecisive about lynches. :/

do you have a game that demostrates this you can link me too?

I don't feel I was too indecisive in this game (just plain wrong lol) but here's a game of me as town if you want.
I only played two games as town on this site and the other one was really short - over by page 8 or somthing I think :O

Okay we're getting sidetracked again.

@Bgg: Is there anyone in mind that you plan to make accusations towards? I would like to hear them.
Never mind about any possible 'tunnelling', that phrase has been over-used in this game.

interesting statement..as of this post, have you voted anyone? quick anwser..no. EDIT, he then votes 3 people very quickly...1st vote I get...the two after looks bad.

Well, yes that is true.
The reason I asked that question of Bgg was'nt because I was accusing him of not giving opinions or accusations etc. it was in response to this post

Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.

He said that and then himself and a couple of others got into another threory/semantics debate. I was trying to bring the game back on track and I was admitally curious on who he planned to 'tunnel'. Not that he has as of yet though

Ehh long post is long
Anyway I thought I

[Maxous]

Damnit posted too soon! >_<

How I was

going to

finish that post off was I thought I would post responses to the questions directed towards me before I go to sleep(to avoid anyone potentially waiting on answers from me) and I will look over the accusations towards other people whenever I get here next.
I see Truant will post before then so that's good news. Cool.

[Maxous]

Indeed they were. This is how it should look.

Okay we're getting sidetracked again.

@Bgg: Is there anyone in mind that you plan to make accusations towards? I would like to hear them.
Never mind about any possible 'tunnelling', that phrase has been over-used in this game.

interesting statement..as of this post, have you voted anyone? quick anwser..no. EDIT, he then votes 3 people very quickly...1st vote I get...the two after looks bad.

Well, yes that is true.
The reason I asked that question of Bgg was'nt because I was accusing him of not giving opinions or accusations etc. it was in response to this post

Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.

He said that and then himself and a couple of others got into another threory/semantics debate. I was trying to bring the game back on track and I was admitally curious on who he planned to 'tunnel'. Not that he has as of yet though

Okay, I have had enough of post strucure failing for one night.

[Maxous]

Maxous: It's just that Yura's latest posts about CKD was so blatently making thoughts and opinions up as she goes along, I'm not giving her the benefit of the doubt anymore. I don't see why a town would just make stuff up like that. She completely forgot her suspicion and vote on Bgg.

Isn't it highly evident from Yuras posts that she's obv newbscum/newbtown and either one would fit the defintion of forgetting their FoS's and sheeping other lynches. I don't mean to say that just because Yura is a newb that they shouldn't be lynched, but surely that's very poor reasoning to vote Yura over your two stronger FoS's.

Sheeping - yes. Forgetting - no.
Regardless of your experience with the game if you have somebody that is your strongest suspect, strong enough to vote for them you simply do not forget that, when you are thinking of who all you suspect in the game, as she did in that instance. It was'nt as if the vote was at the start of the day either, it was with the previous batch of posts she made before that one. This indicated to me that the suspicion and vote on Bgg was insincere and she is indeed just making suspicions up as she goes along.
If she is indeed town it would surprise me in the way she kept changing fos'..with my experience, newer players tend to stick religiously to a particular one or two suspects, no matter how irrational the suspicions may be.
That last point is not a reason I am voting for her however.

By the way with the "stronger fos'" comment do I take it you agree with my suspicons of Truant?

Maxous: iI don't feel I was too indecisive in this game (just plain wrong lol) but here's a game of me as town if you want.
I only played two games as town on this site and the other one was really short - over by page 8 or somthing I think :O

Then what led you to say that you're indecisive as town?

Games off this site

.....

Vote: Andrew94

So do you beleive that Andrew here is bussing CKD then?

@Truant: Is Yura still you're top suspect for SK?
Actually, who would be your second suspect as well if for arguemnts' sake your first guess was wrong?

CKD did come across better with those responses than last time. And with a quick look back.. he was'nt as scummy as I first remembered in day 1.
Meh, not sure :/

Still don't agree with that case on Andrew. I don't agree with what he said about CKD though.

[Maxous]

I dunno what you guys mean by logic, does'nt everybody apply it?....hopefully :/

Hmm about Vollkan, he has seemed quite narrow in his approach to this game. He went after Bgg and Yura quite a lot, even to the point where he did'nt give his opinion on the Andrew vs SC and Regfanb vs CKD cases in particular along with other stuff like my voting changes for example. Who does he agree with?, who does he think is more likely town and mafia?,he has'nt made it clear.
Early in the game he went after SC but recently has pretty much ignored him(scumhunting wise). He has'nt found a single thing suspicious from SC or andrew? - if he has I don't think it's been clear. Possibly because he has settled on his two targets, which threats to the town tend to do.

Sub asked him who was his other scum and town reads apart from the two and he said "check my score list" which I suspect was avoiding the question.
He seems to be unwilling to give opinions on who is town and mafia now(apart from Bgg and Yura), perhaps it is because he wants to keep his options open for later in the game. It does'nt look like he is bussing anybody though, which is leading to suspect if we do have a SK in the game he could be our man.

Did'nt bring it up before as I am not overly confident in these observations, but since we are on the subject and all.

[Maxous]

I don't quite get why a SK would kill the person that they expression suspicion of. Is'nt it usually the person suspects the SK is more likely to get killed?

I don't think option 5 is true when I think about it

[Maxous]

At the risk of flip-flopping again, if enough people are game for lynching Truant I will lend my vote. If not, then I will push for Yura to be lynched.
I do not want Andrew lynched. Bgg is using theory on a SK, Regfan is using meta and SC is convinced because Andrew is accusing him of deflecting the whole time as well as lurking.
Not convinced >:(

I see what Bgg is saying now. Plausible I guess. Regarless I would prefer to take out a mafia member. They are the greater of the two evils after all.(not that I am convinced he is the SK)

[Maxous]

SC is better off not revealing his role. If he flips in night 2, we know what happened. If he survives to day 3, he will have to full-claim then.
The mafia will already know that he has a power-role, but they don't know what it is.
=> there is less of a chance of them manipulating the results or prepare to argue against the results in any way if caught.

In other news, it seems like people are willing to lynch Truant now, cool.

Unvote

VOTE: Truant

[Maxous]

@ max, top 3 scum suspects please...

Truant, Yura. The third depends on SC's claim.

[Maxous]

The SK could of taken out Tclawren because he looked town. perhaps the SK thought that he looked town but not so obvious town that protection would be on him.

This Andrew bandwagon is weak....again

CKD also seemed to fos him because Andrew annoyed him.
@CKD: If you were so convinced about Regfan earlier do you think they are bussing each-other right now? Regfan would jump on him when Andrew was in no real danger of being lynched?

[Maxous]

CKD also seemed to fos him because Andrew annoyed him.
@CKD: If you were so convinced about Regfan earlier do you think they are bussing each-other right now? Regfan would jump on him when Andrew was in no real danger of being lynched?

I did what exactly again?

I assume you are referring to my scum list? Have you ever seen a scum list before? I am not saying I think the people in my scum list are all scum together...and maybe one is an SK and the other is mafia..who the fuck knows (strange you overlook that)....this is a strange question.

I don't see how it is strange.
You list people who are probably mafia but they may not be mafia together? You seemed so convinced that Regfan was "not buying what he was selling" and fabricating a case on yourself, but you don't take his vote on Andrew into account?
Yes one of them could be a SK
But now I am curious - did you vote Andrew with the thought-line that one of them is a SK? Your 'maybe' and 'who knows' seems to suggest not.

I might have to switch my vote

again

.
Having Andrew lynched while Truant and Yura are running around does not sound appealing.

[Maxous]

That's kinda frustrating about Truant.
Just lynch Yura-Chi. It would be unfair to have somebody replace her give thoughts then have them lynched.

And before anybody starts, does Yura's play in this game merit a lynch today, yes or no? Can anybody defend her actions as town or cast reasonable doubt on the case against her? Somebody else giving thougths is not going to change that.

Also this way will give Truant's replacement time to catch up during the night.

Unvote

VOTE: Yura-Chi

[Maxous]

Seems everyone digging thier heels in aboujt this, so not much we can do :/

Nice to see myself allegedly seeking to merely shorten the day makes me the scummiest person in the game in Regfan's eyes.

noted, Max and SC want ANOTHER FUCKING SHORTENED DAY....

this fact lowers Yura's scum factor in my mind...there is no point...

Why is Yura lowered by this?
Apologies if you have already answered, I did'nt really catch on to a direct answer.

[Maxous]

Was he of the protown type?

Yeah Magnetic was a townie.

[Maxous]

Oh,I'm basically waiting until the two replacements conclude with who is suspicious and why, before I start potentially questioning thier points and what-not.
*although*

There can't be two scum-teams(we've already gone over why, you'll get there eventually, I just dont' want to repost it).

There could be.

2 scum

+ SK = 2 anti-town factions.

Do you mean two seperate mafia teams or two mafia members?

[Maxous]

I am lost with these percentages. But yeah, Bgg did imply he had the power to night kill Regfan right?
Are lawyers or godfathers allowed in this set-up? (any ability that will make a mafia appear innocent)

If I had to lynch somebody right now, it would most definitely be andrew.

I am really going to have to get

anybody

to give me a small summary on why Andrew is mafia.

At this point, my first pick to lynch would be Haylen. It goes without saying that she is a far better player than Yura, but so far her input is based on incomplete read, and I'll be curious to see how her read changes by the time she's fully caught up. Same goes for CMAR. I'd be more interested to read about his thoughts after he's read a larger portion of the game than this back and forth with S_C.

Why did you mention you want to lynch Haylen if you realise her input is based off an incomplete read?

Still waiting on Haylen and (I'm gonna call him) 'River' to finsih before

interrogation

begins 3:)

[Maxous]

I am lost with these percentages. But yeah, Bgg did imply he had the power to night kill Regfan right?
Are lawyers or godfathers allowed in this set-up? (any ability that will make a mafia appear innocent)

I hope you have some idea of probability, because it is very important in this game.
Unfortunately for me, yes, Godfathers are allowed in normal games, if that is what you're asking.
Is it possible that I'm the godfather? definitely.
Is it likely? That is something that only you can answer correctly. But, no.

Okay, thanks.
Well, yeah a cop hitting a godfather on night one seems unlikely.
I was thinking more of the mafia role that can make his buddy appear innocent during the night as it could of been guessed yourself might of been targeted. However unless we actually flip a mafia with that role this is baseless speculation.

Haylen has the same role as Yura, remember? We just went over this.
He has a read of Yura already, he can go off of that.

I understand that, but the need to state it seemed a bit weird.

[Maxous]

I completely missed that. >_>
Lol, crap - never mind then. That's fair.

[Maxous]

If I had to choose now, River or Regfan I guess...

[Maxous]

Okay I re-read all of Andrew's posts. He has'nt been the most pro-town player here in terms of questioning everybody(he picks and chooses) and he has been defensive at times.
He however has followed a consistent thought-line on what mafia do, and pointed it out when these 'tells' came up, has made mostly reasonable enough points(even if I don't agree with all of them), questioned those who agree with him when he felt something was up and SC's initial case on him was simply wrong. I really don't see how he reads as mafia.

Seriously, somebody summarise please.

[Maxous]

so is it true that you want to shorten the day? It is lower because I didnt like the rush to lynch him...however, it is moot at this point (at least in regards to SC) because of the soft claim.....do I need to explain why it is moot too?

The reasoning for wanting to lynch Yura then, was not because I have a liking for shortened days.
At the time I thought it would be better simply to lynch Yura rather than simply have somebody try to explain all the actions away as town, then people like yourself coming to this conclusion.

Wait, why is Haylen doing a ISO of yura?....that is ridiculous and a waste of time….

the end is always going to be scummy

, but I am not scum…or newbie.

Did'nt want to put someone through the trouble. Too late now however. :/

[Maxous]

For starters, SC didn't "mumble" the theory about lynching SK. The fact that you characterise her remarks that way only suggests that you are trying to discredit her on emotional grounds. So

Andrew+5

on that count.

As for the substance of your argument, the only thing I can see you saying is "even if we lynch a SK, it might be MYLO tomorrow". Obviously, that's true - but the situation is pretty clearly worse if we lynched mafia rather than a SK. So, your argument is BS. The fact that you are using such a patently stupid argument to try and make SC claim merits a further

Andrew+5

1) That 'mumbles' expression was shown to be a misunderstanding about what it referred to.

2) If we don't lynch the SK today, to realisticly win the game the SK has to take out a mafia. He will almost certainly be aiming for one.
How is the situation worse if we lynch a mafia? The mafia are the greater of two evils to the town (i.e. the biggest threat against the town winning the game). Who the SK is the biggest threat to is the mafia, not the town. The mafia will likely be aiming for the SK as well.
How is this thought BS?

But I agree he should'nt of asked SC to claim.

[Maxous]

^
River has indeed not been the most convincing.
I did want to let himself and Haylen finish but we only have 2 days before deadline, so time is running out. As a town a decision has to be made soon.

In any event, this is really distracting from the central point - which is that, no matter how debatable this issue is, it's patently ridiculous for Andrew to suspect SC, to the point of demanding a claim, based on the theory (when the theory appears to be against him - certainly, he hasn't shown any understanding to the contrary - and at best is ambiguous)

Okay that's fair.

[Maxous]

Conclusion: Either scummy, or a really really bad player. I'm willing to vote for him today, since people seem more interested in voting for him that bgg, then:

The conclusion is scummy or town? Saying he could be " a really bad player" is quite possibly giving herself a get-out clause.

SC has pointed out a few times recently about his softclaim towards Bgg.
She did'nt acknowledge that either when SC pointed it out to her. Instead of a 'okay my bad' kind of comment it was 'well I can't read/respond to everything'. Fair enough if she did'nt have time, but she did'nt seem interested in the softclaim at all.

Even with saying this I would be more willing to lynch River(looks more suspicious) but we would have to start switching now.

[Maxous]

Shit, not sure what to think of this... not much time either. Yura with a PR...maybe?

@Vollkan: How willing are you to switch to River?

[Maxous]

I will take that as a yes.

Okay, I don't neccessarily believe Haylen's claim but it does indeed put enough doubt here. I would rather look at it the next day period.

River/Truant have seemed scummy to me before and after the replacement and I doubt I would beleive a claim from that slot.

Unvote

VOTE: CMAR

SC, I know you want to vote Andrew but I would ask that you take a look at who all are currently voting for him.

[Maxous]

Sweet, votes on me. I'd ask for cases (which no one provided) but at this point, I'd rather find someone scummy than defend myself.

I will be willing to look into if it comes quick.
Being at GMT it is unfeasible for me to be around here at deadline. So I will need to leave my vote on soon for deadline.

I'm actually a bit irritated at my joint responsibility for allowing this last minute rush to happen :/

[Maxous]

I seen it once. A mafia had it though.

Does a weak doctor and a redirector clash somehow? I don't get it :/

[Maxous]

Okay, but a re-director is like a roleblocker. It is pratical for both sides to have.
Remember that for the next day period.

[Maxous]

Andrew. Andrew, andrew, andrew. You contribute to Magnetic's lynch with little reasoning (it was a reasonable lynch) and no contribution, you then say you find tclar to be "off".

....
.......
If I am not mistaken, he was one of the first ones to vote for magnetic, on his first post, because he had

claimed mafia roleblocker in a previous game

.
Would you not vote for somebody who did that?

He also came back and said he would have defended Magnetic = Andrew contradicting himself = What I Think CryMe is pointing out.

That was'nt a contradiction. He voted Magnetic during the RVS and was'nt around when Magnetic claimed.
Andrew stated he would of said something because of Magnetic's actions in a previous game.

CryMe is right here, there is no reason to go into this, your natural playstyle this game is scummy but due to the claim any time spent now discussing it is a waste.

Do you think Bgg is town then?
That previous supicions were just people reacting to how he formulates suspicions and tries to help etc.?

[Maxous]

Maxous, he said it was PL not a RVS meaning he did think Magnetic was a liability and should be lynched.

Ah you are correct, he did indeed say PL..whoops :O

Regfan, I am curious why you are defending River here though..did'nt you vote for him to be lynched not so long ago? What changed?

[Maxous]

as to why*

Bleh, =(

[Maxous]

There are 8 players left.
Assuming the worst that there are 3 mafia left, are you sure we want to be lynching today?

[Maxous]

Hmm thinking here.
Worst case scenario is 3 mafia.
5 To lynch - 3 mafia. If we no lynch, tomorrow it will be.. 4 To Lynch - 3 mafia.

There is an advantage to be had where if one townsperson is wrong, we can still get away with it as long as the rest of the town is on the same side.
Whereas if we reduce the number by one, one townsperson goes astray and it is over.
We could NL later if needed when the numbers are trimmed down a bit(assuming we are correct in our lynch)

Plus when the numbers are trimmed down it gives Haylen a better chance of success with her ability and less likely the mafia will want to let her run around (if she is town)

Thoughts?

By the way be careful with voting today still. 2 mislaid votes can cause a quick-hammer. The scenario is not very likely but caution is the best option.

[Maxous]

vollkan is now pinging off the charts as scum

Is this only because of his "no lynch" vote or is there more?
I don't think you mentioned a previous suspicion on Vollkan before(as opposed to myself and Haylen)

I'm not sure how it works, if you just need any scum to redirect the kill, it's 3 town (not including me or you) to 3 mafia right now. If we lynch a mafia, it's 3 town to 2 mafia. If we don't lynch a mafia, we all die. Of course, if you need

the

scum, that's a different story.

Yes, a re-director would have to target the exact person that performs the night kill.

So subgenius...did you misunderstand how the ability works or something?

Preview Edit:
Bgg think of the numbers: If we mislynch today worst case scenario is 4 town, 3 mafia going into the night.
If we successfully lynch today and mislynch tomorrow it would be 3 town, 2 mafia going into the night. etc. etc.
=> There will be a chance to use as long as we keep the extra town number.

[Maxous]

Yes. That is why it will work in mylo. Not lylo.

Oh I see what you mean now.

Okay this means we should lynch today then for sure.

[Maxous]

Well on that end, my first thought is River. I don't think Andrew being a SK changes that much about the read on him.

@Subgenius: Are you preferring a Haylen lynch over a River one at the moment?

[Maxous]

Somehow, I don't think either of them are scum.

Is this referring to Haylen and River?

no, i have been hesitant about volkan since yesterday....but lets say that I havent mentioned volkan for the entire fucking game..what is your point? and no, it isnt just the "no lynch".

No real 'point'. I wanted to know if it was only because of that action or is there more to it.
Whereas your suspicion towards myself and Haylen was previously explained.

Although some hate setup speculation I feel it's needed here. With 13 players, has there ever been SK+3 mafia in a past mini because from intial view that seems unbalanced, so in all likelyhood there's two mafia and we have a mslynch.

Let's assume the worst just in case.

By the way if you want more information on me or have any queries - just ask.

[Maxous]

Maxous - Don't mind if I do:
1) Do you have any thoughts in regards to the activity or lack thereof at the conclusion of yesterdays lynch?
2)Do you feel anyone in particular attempted to avoid the thread or us from reaching a general conclusion of who to lynch?

Simply - no.
I'm not going to accuse somebody of delibratly avoiding the thread when it simply could of been unfeasible for them to be around at that time.
Vollkan's post about it re-inforces that. Using my own example, the lynch deadline was at 6am my time - not feasible.
I think everyone posted on that day.

3)Given that the focus has drifted towards Volkan in some regard, do you think the attention towards him is warranted?

Not that he is receiving that much attention, but yes it is warranted.
Everybody in the game is liable to be questioned about thier thoughts and reasoning behind any post.
In a (effective)LYLO situation as such it is natural for players who were'nt questioned much previously to have a finger or two pointed thier direction.

If by 'warranted' you mean my opinion of him, I would lean-town.

First of all, we would lose our one-shot redirector, if we even have one.

Most importantly, if it was actually beneficial to town to no lynch, then all that the mafia would have to do is not kill anybody.

Correct about the re-director.

The bolded point - the mafia would'nt usually bother about playing games like that. In normal circumstances of MYLO, the town 'no lynch's', and then mafia kills whoever and then the game goes on.
Testing the town's patience to get them to lynch with a MYLO is something cheap, that most would'nt engage in.
So even though MYLO is technically more benefical to the town, the mafia will kill anyway - remember that the mafia will also get an advantage due to removing whoever they want from the game.

I would like a lynch in this day period, considering the cop report.
Assuming we lynch correctly today we can always use the 'no-lynch' later

If we NL and Haylen-town is killed:

If we No-Lynch and Haylen is town, there will be no reason to kill her - that is the point. Her ability is much less effective.
Whereas if we keep the MYLO and the numbers thin down, town Haylen would become increasingly dangerous for the mafia to keep around and may decide to just off her and not take the risk.
It would potentally allow the town to get away with a mislynch through night abilities, whereas a no-lynch would'nt.

However this is admitally complicated by Haylen being one the main suspects for mafia.

My read on Max and Vollkan is slipping.

Any reasons in particular for this?

[Maxous]

Congrats CKD on becoming an uncle

+1

Back on topic:

Now, it's also

completely untrue

that Haylen's ability won't save us. Imagine a 4:3 LYLO. We mislynch, it goes to 3:3. Yes, as you said earlier, scum can just No Kill, but they don't win with a tie. The reason that games get endgamed when there is a tie is that there is no way for town to win. However, in 3:3, we still can win - by Haylen redirecting at night. (and, for obvious maths odds reasons, it's better that we rely on Haylen in a post-LYLO mislynch rather than a post-MYLO mislynch).

Hold on, if the mafia make up 50% of the town at any time it is game over right?
We would'nt have a night period after that.

3) Despite her scumminess, Haylen should not be the lynch today unless we all come to an agreement. In reality, if she is town and we mislynch, she is possibly our only hope of making it through the night. If possible, we should find scum elsewhere.

If Haylen is deemed the most likely to be mafia then we should lynch her regardless of her claim and possible night scenarios.

Hmm nothing else I want to comment on or question at the moment..

[Maxous]

One thing I was wondering. So far, the following town PR's have been revealed: sledgehammer, cop, and doctor. That seems like a pretty powerful arsenal of power roles, and I find myself wondering if another PR as potentially powerful as redirector would be included in this setup. This is pure speculation, and I haven't played enough games to have a strong sense of how likely this would be. Even if I had, it would be pure speculation, but this seems like a lot of PR's to me.

4 scum(presumeably) of which there was 2 killing sources is a strong threat for a 13 person game, hence I could feasibly see the town be a bit more powered than normal to try and get the balance right.

For the record I beleive Haylen's claim, I have no reason not to.
The downside is that it is an alignment neutral role(useful for either side)

[Maxous]

@Mod: Was Andrew94 investigation immune?

Role specifics will be provided at the end of the game.

I'm thinking Subgenius and Vollkan scumteam. I don't know what to think about whether there's a third mafia because 1 SK and 3 Mafia in a 13 player setup seems a bit heavy to me. And oh hey, if it is mylo/lylo, they're going for the easy target.

And why are you an easy target?

Bgg could be a godfather btw. If we go by 2 mafia, it would make sense that he'd be NK and Inv immune. I'm reading Andrews flip as him being Inv. immune, by the way. I have no reason to believe that Bgg is town anymore.

You say that as if you're confident Bgg is mafia but you still suspect a 2 man team between Vollkan and Subgenius?
Or are you saying the three of them are?

"No reason to beleive" is a pretty strong statement.

@ Subgenius - Balance tends to depend on how powerful the scum are too. Obviously, the mod has an interest in what I would call 'odd' roles.

You're right, thinking about it, I would have a hard time believing that all scum are goons. Even harder if there are three.
2 scum PRs seems like a very real possibility.

Well, one at least.
I guess something like a framer is possible. I would suspect they have a stalker (a role cop)
One role they are likely not to have is a roleblocker - it would of been easier to negate SC rather than kill him

[Maxous]

@Curiouskarmadog: Why were you "hesitant" about Vollkan in the day 2 period?

[Maxous]

why are you focused on yesterday and not commenting on my thoughts today of vollkan?

Because at the time you stated your thoughts about Day 3 but not Day 2.

I have voted him...you think I am correct,

an off townie

, or scum for doing so?....would like an opinion sooner than later please.

Bolded.
I'll explain

1) Your suspicion was initally based on Vollkan not dying within 2 night kills. This is going to tie in with the Pappums question but with how Pappums played on day 1( basically saying nothing, keeping quiet) it is quite feasible the mafia beleived Pappums had a power role and targeted him. This ties in with targeting SC (a power role). It seems to be the mafia's kill prioirity. Not killing opinionated town.

2) The no lynching arguement - Bgg is not confirmed town.

Confirmed town is when there is no possible scenario that he could be a mafia. Whereas there are 2 I can think of, Bgg could be an investigation immune mafia, or the mafia could have an ability that allows them to make each-other appear innocent ( a lawyer).
At this stage I feel a NL is unneccessary because I'm not willing to lynch Bgg today. However I'm not suspicious of somebody because they want to make absolute certain of a person's alignment rather than fairly certain.


I see this case as a slight town tell for CKD though. He mentioned at the very start of the game how 'good' a player Vollkan is and when the game wears on and the longer Vollkan does'nt die I could see town CKD get more and more suspicious about why the 'good' player is not dead yet? There could be something going on, Is he fooling us here? etc.
I experienced it before.

Why are you ignoring the fact that he voted Yura at the end of the day?

He did'nt 'suspect' Yura.
He was annoyed about how she posted.

[Maxous]

It is not as if everybody is going to Haylen, Yura did this, Yura did that by this stage. To be fair there was some of that at the start but I don't see it anymore.
Yes Haylen came into the game under higher scrutiny due to the previous player's actions. However people are now asking Haylen to explain

her

actions, not Yura's. So no to being an 'easy target'.

You say that as if you're confident Bgg is mafia

No I didn't. I'm paranoid. I had a bad experience with a mafia framer once.

Do you think Bgg is town or mafia?

Please read my response to Maxous. You don't accuse Player A of distancing from Player B if you don't suspect player B of being mafia.

Are you implying that on night 1 Pappums was possibly night killed because of the threat his suspicions posed to Yura?

If whoever gets lynched today is a Framer, would it still be irrelevant?

Yes, it would only be relevant if the cop received a guilty investigation, which he didn't.

Framer is a role that targets an innocent, and makes them guilty. It is irrelevant now, and saying "There might be a framer." is still meaningless if we lynch a framer, because by then we will know that we have a framer. I think you're deliberately making mistakes at this point.

Look, it is quite apparent at this stage she is saying 'Framer' in reference to what I would call a 'lawyer'. The role in which the target of your ability appears innocent when he should appear guilty.
I am unsure what you call the role on this forum.

[Maxous]

One-shot jailkeeper and a one-shot re-director.
Even if true, both are abilities mafia can have (jailkeeper would be pratical due to the SK)

I still think we should lynch today though.

[Maxous]

2) S_C got an innocent on Bgg. While Bgg is likely town (despite my dislike of her scummy play), there is a chance that he is investigation immune and we cannot regard him as a clear in situations like this when town could possibly lose depending on the lynch. Now of course we listen to his reads and he is not the lynch for today, but

he is not clear.

If we're going to mass-claim, should I breadcrumb now?

Okay, I understand that you're

practically clear

barring a GF and you're not the lynch for today, but it's statements like these that make your play scummy.

Adding to this that River named Bgg as mafia in his suspects post on Day 2.

If we're going to mass-claim, should I breadcrumb now?

Not much point to breadcrumbing now.

The mafia would of decided on thier fake claims by this stage. Espicially since there is talk of mass claiming.

One-shot jailkeeper and a one-shot re-director.
Even if true, both are abilities mafia can have (jailkeeper would be pratical due to the SK)

Agreed. Though, if either of them is a mafia PR, then I think there would have to be town PR to balance.

Do you mean if one of them are mafia the other may not be due to balance or do you mean somebody else entirely from the town would likely make up the balance?

[Maxous]

I will be voting Cry Me A River before the end of the day. He is my pick.
Stating this now as to try to avoid a deadline rush again.

I would rather the town does'nt mass claim.

Who says you're going to be killed? If either Haylen or CMAR are telling the truth, it's quite reasonable to guess that the maf will kill them rather than risk one of their night kills being tampered with.

Assuming they are both town, the mafia would have to be crazy to night kill Haylen or CMAR.

[Maxous]

Scott switched his vote from Vollkan quite easily. Particulary after stating "Vollkan is surely scum"

NL means if any of Haylen or CMAR is legitimate and they do block a night kill at some point in the game, we will be at mylo again and not have an added mslynch.
Lynching today and if Haylen or CMAR is legitimate and do block a night kill we gain an added msylnch.

If Haylen or CMAR blocked a kill then we would know who they blocked, therefore knowing somebody is mafia.

If we mislynch, then maybe its 3v3 worst case scenario. Not every scum WC is 1/2 of the remaining players either.

That is not an assumption we can afford to base decisions on.

Doesn't that give scumpoints to CMAR?

Maybe.
Alternatively it could be a 2 mafia set-up.
Or (assuming you are town) it could mean Subgenius is mafia

I still think we should lynch today though.

I will be voting Cry Me A River before the end of the day. He is my pick.

Why the change of heart?

What change of heart?
The first statement is 'I would like to lynch.'
The second statement is 'I would like to lynch River'

No lynch - I will feel really gutted if it's mylo right now and we mislynch a townie. Even with power roles. Would this be the safer option?

Depends.
In a all-vanilla set-up yes.
Factoring in power roles quite possibly not - Such as yours for example.

And I don't think you understand what I'm saying about choice. I mean that you can't say "maybe the mafia will kill one of the others, and it won't be as bad", because they would only do so if they judged the outcome to be worse for town.

Not quite, it's based on what is best for the mafia.
While the two often interwine they don't always.
For example the mafia might see your suspicion of town player X and think 'If we leave Bgg alive he will vote player X to get lynched. So we should kill this other town player A who suspects mafia player Y, so mafia player Y won't get lynched. This way we can win in the next day period.'

Alright. I think it's either Scott Brosius/Maxous/CryMeARiver, or Scott Brosius/Maxous. Either way, we can get away with lynching CMAR today.
But only if you all promise to lynch the other two if CMAR comes up clean.

Is your suspicion of me purely because of process of elimination?
Is Haylen town only because of her claim?
Again, mafia re-directors exist. It is feasible in a game with town power-roles and a third party.

To Vollkan:
I think we're already pretty certain that I'm town. It would increase it from a 99% to a 100%.

I don't think it is quite that certain.

I think we have enough solid scum suspects that a lynch is worthwhile.

Considering that everybody has mentioned that River is quite possibly mafia - I agree.

[Maxous]

Eh we did'nt mass-claim..
CMAR claimed it earlier, I guess they did'nt beleive him.


Considering there is another replacement, I'll re-consider the merits of NL. Still if Hinduragi can catch-up about 2 days before deadline that would be fantastic ^_^

[Maxous]

and I don't believe that mafia would be very to bus in our current situation.

Completely disagree.

After CMAR almost being lynched on Day 2 it would be very pratical for mafia to bus him in this situation.

That group you listed, is there scum in that? I'm unsure to be honest. I'm thinking maybe the mafia pairing is Haylen - Hinduragi (due to predeccessors actions of course). If there is a third member - I'm a bit stumped.

I agree with Scott, this game is crawling. I avoided voting to leave it closer to the deadline, but to be honest I think we have went a bit too far with delaying the game for the sake of it.
I think everybody has agreed with CMAR being suspect.

Apologies Hinduragi, but I can't ignore CMAR's actions (and Truant's to a slightly lesser extent). CMAR did'nt really follow a consistent thoughtline in terms of his suspects - particulary in relation to wheter or not he suspected Bgg to be mafia. His vote and unvote on Bgg early on has been well discussed. I discussed why I thought Truant was suspicious earlier.
Jailkeeper is a pratical enough role for a mafia to have in this game (with the SK).

I'm going with this lynch.
VOTE: Hinduragi

If people disagree and want to no-lynch, I will live with it. But I'm confident about this slot.

[Maxous]

Granted I am not familiar with the rules and requirememnts for this game but lynching somebody due to set-up speculation is not a good idea at all.(maybe open games but not normal ones).
And with CMAR's claim it's not as if her claim is saving her from a lynch. I highly doubt both of them are town with such claims. I personally think it is feasible neither of them are but that's just me.

Liking how people jumped on me for that without knowing how normal setups are reviewed lolz. So at least one of Bgg, Regfan and Scott are scum.

Why and who? (In your opinion)

Further, I find Haylen's method of defense suspicious. If her role was valid, I would expect her to be legitimately surprised as well as irritated with the mod for assigning a role that could potentially put so much heat on her. Instead,

her first reaction is to explain why the role makes sense based on her understanding of normal rules

, which is pretty clearly incomplete, which would explain why she claimed redirector in the first place.

vote: Haylen

I raised an eyebrow at this vote..
She explained why her role can be in the game, why should she be outraged and surprised if she moderated a game that had a couple of these 'unusual' or whatever roles?

[Maxous]

A bit off topic:

An epilogue

Heh, I just finished a game called Amnesia: The Dark Descent, in which the main character got coaxed by a mysterious man into committing mass murders. The main character then regretted the evil monster he had become and sought redemption and release through death.
I found that coincidence amusing.

____________________
____________________

This likely means that CMAR is indeed town, and Subs attack at those voting him means he's probably town as well. The manner in which it was pointed out as well leads me to believe that CKDs spot is town leaving:

-Maxous
-Volkan

Of those I'm most certain of Maxous being mafia.

Regfan,you're going to have to go through this for me.
I don't know how you came to those conclusions.

I agree. Max is next in line in my book.

And why is that?

or a townsperson(vig).

Why'd you mention this in 504?

I was stating what Yura wrote.
She said I think Bgg is mafia or a SK or town.

Anyway now that Yura is now confirmed to of been mafia I will bring this up.

Unforunately? the biggest town read. Anyway, Day 1 he thinks Yura is town, quite strongly.

First post of Day 2:

He votes Yura instantly with a reason that was never really explained that well.

She was the SK because Tclawren kinda suspected her (although he had an increaing suspicion of Bgg that Truant never mentioned.)

A far cry from being the strongest town read. Probably a change of strategy during the night period. He was told to bus etc.
Yura's flip makes me more confident about the Truant/CMAR/Hinduragi slot.

My town reads from strongest to weakest are:
Regfan
Bgg
Vollkan.

If there is a third mafia my guess would be either Subgenius or Scott/CKD due to process of elimination mostly.
Interestingly CKD also changed his stance from Yura being a bad lynch on Day 1 to a good one on Day 2. As well as hestitant to lynch CMAR.
Hmm I will look more into it if I'm around later.

[Maxous]

Heh, convenient timing for the game to re-open.

As others have mentioned, it seems unlikely that both claimed PR's are faking, so Hindu is probably town.

And why can't he be telling the truth about his power and also be mafia? Why automatically town?
Mafia have night powers.

Speaking of which
@Hinduragi: Did you happen to use your jailkeeping power last night?

[Maxous]

Now, Max, why was it that you were so uninterested in noting how Haylen's claim clearly contradicted the rules of normal setups? You seemed to accept her explanations although they really didn't explain anything. Up to that point, you had been quite on the ball, but with Haylen, you seemed all too ready to accept her excuses.

I did'nt see it as 'clearly'.

Scott - A re-director is'nt normal, see? Vote Haylen
Regfan - Is'nt only one unusual role allowed? And the sledgehammer died. Vote Haylen
Bgg - I bet it's two. Vote Haylen
Haylen - Lalz, you are allowed 1-2 non-normal roles in the game. My game hads it and the reviewers were like 'okay'
Bgg - We already have 2 unusual roles. Possibly 3. (So the rule of only one unusual role did'nt apply then)
Haylen - Reviewers are more lenient it if it is one-shot. So it's allowed. *Shows a link to a game with an exception.*
Regfan - No that's a mini normal
Haylen - Normal is normal. Same thing
Regfan - No that was'nt a closed normal. Different rules.
Bgg - Mini 851 had roles that are unusual like cult leader. Unvote!
Regan - That was over a year and a half ago. The rules are more recent I think. I'll go look.
Scott -A year and a half ago they did'nt really check. So it probably does'nt count.
Subgenius - I find how she defended to be suspicious etc. Vote.
Maxous - Posted.

So what I got from this was Haylen's role is 'unusual' and you are only allowed 1 of them even though we had 2 already and therefore she is lying because exceptions are'nt made even though there was an exception in this game with having two of them.
As it turns out the rules are stricter than I first realised but I saw this as completely double guessing the mod and reviewers trying to push a lynch on her. Double guessing the mod is not what you base lynches on.

This was'nt made totally clear to me until afterwards

_______________________
_______________________

As for the next agenda

And yet he doesn't seem

the least bit

shocked or surprised when she self-lynches.

I was a bit surprised that she decided to self-lynch but I was'nt surprised that she was mafia.

I'm thinking maybe the mafia pairing is Haylen - Hinduragi (due to predeccessors actions of course). If there is a third member - I'm a bit stumped.

Haylen is 'her'

And with CMAR's claim it's not as if her claim is saving her from a lynch. I highly doubt both of them are town with such claims. I personally think it is feasible neither of them are but that's just me.

And it was very obvious she was mafia when she self-lynched.

Gonna split this up to avoid a massive wall.

[Maxous]

Votecount 3.6:
CryMeARiver - 2 (subgenius,

Scott Brosius

)

Scott Brosius

- 1 (

bgg1996

)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, Maxous)
Anaylsis: For a second lets assume that both CMAR and Sub were town, that would mean mafia are Maxous and Volkan meaning if they both voted CMAR the game would end.

Votecount 3.7:
Hinduragi - 2 (

Scott Brosius

, Maxous)

Scott Brosius

- 1 (

bgg1996

)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (subgenius, Hinduragi,

Haylen

,

Regfan

)
Anaylsis: Oh, so look what happens Maxous votes Hind. Taking the chance at ending the game there I see. I'll need to read into this area more.

I assume this is what your basing Maxous-Vollkan on.
Subgenius invoted Hinduragi before I voted him. How is that chancing to end the game? And it's under the assumption that CMAR is town due to 'mafia don't vote thier buddies'

________________________
________________________

Overall Day 2 anaylsis: CryMeARiver isn't mafia unless he's the last mafia in the game which I doubt given the power roles dead at the moment.

Yeah about that...

There can't be two scum-teams(we've already gone over why, you'll get there eventually, I just dont' want to repost it).

There could be. 2 scum + SK = 2 anti-town factions.

Bgg could be a godfather btw. If we go by 2 mafia, it would make sense that he'd be NK and Inv immune. I'm reading Andrews flip as him being Inv. immune, by the way. I have no reason to believe that Bgg is town anymore.

Disclaimer: It is not necessarily MYLO. I could easily see only 2 scum since they get an extra NK through the SK. But we assume the worst situation of course.

Seems plausible.

_________________
_________________

I seen it once. A mafia had it though.

Does a weak doctor and a redirector clash somehow? I don't get it :/

I came across this. Maxous can you show me the link to the game where a mafia had the redirector ability?

To clarify it was'nt a game on

this

site.
If you still want me to link you to it I will. Just making sure.

(Grand?) finale coming next..

[Maxous]

Speaking of which
@Hinduragi: Did you happen to use your jailkeeping power last night?

Why do you want to know?

Yeah alright, I wanted to wait on Hinduragi to make certain but he did'nt show up and I'm like 95% sure anyway.

Roleclaim: Jack of all Trades

3 one-shot abilities.

N1- No action (too many players did'nt want to waste an ability.)
N2- One-shot Gunsmith ability. Determining wheter or not the target has a gun. I used it on Regfan. Result was no gun. Therefore if I understand it correctly he is clear. (Due to the mafia shooting people)
N3- One-shot tracker ability. Target Hinduragi. He visited Scott last night.

I asked Hinduragi did he use the ability to see if I could catch him in a lie saying he did'nt use it or used it on somebody else etc. to make 100% sure.
Since jailkeeping protects what would of had to happen is a mafia roleblocked Hinduragi and killed Scott. This is unlikely as why would'nt they of roleblocked SC instead of killing him. And how it is likely they killed Pappums for power role hunting. Still I wanted to make certain.
Everyone knows the other reasons to suspect that slot.
As I outlined to Refgan the Haylen and CMAR mentioned the idea of having 2 mafia a bit too often which leads me to beleive there is only 2. Also if there was a third(out of Vollkan and Subgenius) it would pf made more sense for them to send in the kill.

If there happens to be a third I would suggest Vollkan for his 'CMAR' claim complicates things, I dunno if I

[Maxous]

Damn..and I was nearly finished and all. Keyboard slip >_<

If there happens to be a third I would suggest Vollkan for his 'CMAR claim complicates things, I dunno if we should lynch him' and going back through the thread to find a reason to suspect me

after

I expressed my opinion on the case on Haylen. I.E. why not call me out on it at the time?
Why wait until everyone else starts thinking I might be mafia?

But as I said I don't think he is I think it's just the two mafia.

I'll vote when everyone is ready.

[Maxous]

@Maxous, I don't suppose you breadcrumbed at all?

Ack, no. I should of though, I'll know for next time.
Only breadcrumb I can think of is trying to hint that Regfan is town in case I flipped and trying to get the message across that CMAR and Haylen roles were probably mafia roles (since I knew there was another town power role in the game)

Has anyone ever seen a Joat in a mini-normal before out of curiosity?

It's a role that I've never encountered in any game before.

I done a brief search and here is a game with a town Jack of all Trades

I guess I could reveal the third role afterwards if everyone wants. Might defeat the purpose of the role but that does'nt matter too much.

[Maxous]

Hmm okay

Maxous, why did you target Regfan N2? Your vote was on CMAR and the last post you made suspecting Regfan was back in the early 30's or the 20's.

I was very suspicious of Regfan at the end of day 2 for :

1) Arguing against a Yura lynch because she was a newbie to the game
2) Arguing against a CMAR lynch at the end of day 2.

Basically my thoughtline was that Yura-CMAR-Regfan was the mafia team and I targeted the hardest player to nail to try and gain proof that he was mafia.

[Maxous]

On top of that, if you were roleblocked, you wouldn't have visited.

Hmm really? I'm not sure if it means succesfully visited or attempted to visit.

*WIFOM*
Anyway if I was lying I would of certainly picked Bgg due to himself being confirmed town. I mean there still was a possibility going into night 3 that Scott bussed Haylen.

Preview edit: For myself to be in a mafia team that would require the mafia to brillaintly double-guess who Hinduragi would roleblock/protect and take a big chance in revealing that he visited Scott to frame him.
I can't be a mafia tracker because my buddy would have to be a roleblocker and if the two of us used abilities then who sent in the kill?
Oh wait! Actually I could be mafia with Hinduragi and we set this whole thing up. Ah still, anyway you look at it Hinduragi has to be mafia unless I'm like, half-psychic

Meh, I will reveal my third power, it is:
*drumroll
A one-shot roleblocker.

I don't think there is 3 roleblocking abilities. And for that to be the case the mafia team would have to Subgenius and Vollkan and would require me to ignore my suspicions on CMAR and Truant. I simply don't think so

VOTE: Hinduragi

[Maxous]

Sure, okay..
I shall roleblock Vollkan if there is another night period after we lynch Hinduragi.

[Maxous]

Hmm remember that there was a SK in this game.

Imagine we did'nt lynch Andrew until day 3 or 4!

Anyway we'll wait for the moderator..

[Maxous]

Okay..Regfan does not have a gun(Gunsmith ability). Bgg was shot.
So it can't be him.

I used my roleblocking ability last night on Vollkan. It prevents the target from carrying out any night action. I presume this includes night kills(confirm?).
As we went over earlier, re-direction abilities is not allowed.
So it can't be Vollkan that killed Bgg.

Process of elimination means that the remaining mafia is subgenius.

I can't think of anything other than the two possibilities that the above post mentions as long as roleblocking includes prevention of night kills.

[Maxous]

One thing from last night that strikes me as strange is that bgg was killed rather than Regfan. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that Regfan has been the stronger player, so why is he still alive? I think it is because Regfan never claimed, and it's possible that his flip could have contradicted Max's claim. If Regfan had flipped paranoid gun owner, some sort of unused vig role, or some other gun-owning town role, it would have been obvious that Max was lying. He killed the safer target, the one who had no chance of contradicting his claim, bgg1996.

Bgg did'nt claim :/

[Maxous]

The reason I am leaning to it being SubG is that, if Maxous was gambiting scum, it would be against his interests to effectively declare Regfan innocent. By doing so, he has lowered the lynch field today from 3 (SubG, Maxous and Regfan) to just two (Maxous and SubG). This is obviously WIFOMy, and I have no intention of voting on it, though.

By the way if I was scum I could of simply claimed tracker and nothing else and kept the lynch possibilities to all 4 players.

[Maxous]

I'm pretty sure if Regfan has a role that involves a gun he would of called me out on it in the last day period

[Maxous]

or that he is an experienced scum player who was knowingly planting a town slip?

I'm flattered but you give me too much credit >_>

I'm pretty sure if Regfan has a role that involves a gun he would of called me out on it in the last day period

Not if he felt that there were benefits in not claiming (eg. if he was a PGO). But anyway, it doesn't seem like a risk that Maxous-scum would realistically need to be worried about (the odds of a town gun role being in a game are slim)

I actually thought the chance was quite realistic seeing as I had an ability to determine wheter players had guns instead of a normal cop ability.
I understand it was a flavour cop slightly limiting me as I could not locate the SK but I still thought there might be a town role with a gun as well as well to limit the effectiveness a bit more.

Clearly not though.

[Maxous]

@Maxous: Why exactly was it that you thought it was 2 mafia? And I guess this applies on two levels because even if a townie acknowledges the possibility (or even probability) of a lesser number of scum, the normal thing to do is to assume the worst-case scenario. IIRC, you never actually explained why you felt it was 2 scum.

Pretty sure I did. I thought there was 2 mafia because Haylen (the flipped mafia) and CMAR(the likely mafia) talked about there only being 2 mafia a few times. I thought they were mafia hinting at the set-up which I have seen mafia do before - I don't know

why

they do it, but they do.

Another reason I thought there was 2 mafia was because I caught Hinduragi performing the night kill.So I thought he performed the kill because there was no other mafia partner. I thought there was no other partner because if yourself or Subgenius was the mafia partner it would of made a lot more sense for either of you two to send in the kill. I'm still surprised at that BTW.
Turns out I should of read more into the post by Truant instead (he basically stated earlier there was 3 mafia)

I was always acting in case of the WCS of there being 3 mafia (hence myself pointing the finger at Vollkan as the third mafia)

[Maxous]

Was'nt everybody going off the idea of lynching Hinduragi? If mafia Max planned a bus it would of been the other way other around. (He jailkept me, no kill, I is caught scum etc.)

I agree that Hinduragi made a boo-boo in confirming he targeted Scott. He had another partner and it was LYLO(effectively). He should of called me a liar. He tried to rectify that later (when he voted me) but he left it too late.

I have little idea why you guys decided to have Hinduragi send in the kill. However I would wager the two of you were'nt allowing for a Jack of all Trades to track one of you and have a clear on Regfan waiting in the wings.

By the way if I am indeed mafia I have taken three gambles here:

1) Narrowing the decision to 2 players instead of having a standard 3-way choice in LYLO.
2) A gamble that Regfan's role did'nt involve a gun
3) A gamble that Vollkan and Subgenius had no active ability of any sort. (to roleblock)

That is quite the risk that could of easily blown up in my face.
Mafia max would of safely claimed VT and took Regfan and Vollkan into LYLO with him.

[Maxous]

That bolded quote from #1308 was taken a bit out of context. I was listing all the possibilities and I was'nt going to omit or lie about a possibility just because it shed me in a bad light. I always think about scenarios like that. (Just go look at my posts about the possibility of the mafia having a lawyer to clear Bgg etc.). So yes of course it would be possible I was bussing. The point of that post was to illustrate how Hinduragi was mafia unless I am Derren Brown.

What Subgenius has suggested in that post is that "scum Max was riding high on a fake claim that town was eagerly swallowing and decided to flaunt his success a bit?". This was after suggesting that I was an experienced mafia player "knowingly planting town-slips".
So as mafia I have carefully planned my fake claim by accusing Regfan of being mafia in day 2 and then not mentioning any suspicion on him in day 3(even implying that he was a clear at the end in case I flipped), constantly hinting that CMAR and Haylen abilities could easily be abilities for mafia(in the knowledge that I had a town PR), not posting for 2 days in the day 4 period waiting for Hinduragi to answer my question that I asked straight away on day 4, dropping deliberate town tells etc. but at the same time it is likely that I was openly flaunting and hinting at my success as mafia.
If as mafia, I was being as meticulous and careful about my fakeclaim as is being suggested then it would be quite erratic to leave such obvious hints.
I have been accused of being mafia for two contradictory reasons

What Subgenius is doing here, is what mafia commonly do when they are looking for a case on someone. Read through the ISO selectively choosing lines that they can pick out and present it in a scummy way. I could look through the ISO of any of the four of us here and do the exact same thing.

@Vollkan: I have never been in a game where the mafia could use an ability and night kill in the same night period. I don't see any reason why it would be the case here so okay yes, I made an assumption on that.

Have you actually seen mafia hint at the setup in terms of the number of scum?

Might be a relevant example. Seeing as how I should of read more into that quote instead :/

@Regfan: The point of tracking Hinduragi was not to catch him killing someone. I beleived his jailkeeper claim. Scott told him to use his ability before the N3 period. I wanted to see if and who he would visit during the night and then ask him about his ability on Day 4. I wanted to see if he would lie about who he targeted with his JK role.
As for N1 I disagree that using my gunsmith ability would be optimal. I only had one chance to use it and I decided that there was too many people alive in the game and I would probably be better off saving it for later. My gunsmith ability was my most important. As it turns out I was vindicated with that decision because my target was going to be Pappums Rat.

As for Yura I only begain suspecting her in the middle of Day 2.

While I am on Yura I want to bring something to your attention. When Yura flaked and was getting a replacement I suggested we should lynch Yura before the replacement came in. I thought it to be unfair of somebody replacing into such a undefendable slot facing an immenent lynch. (I did'nt want to waste somebody's time).
Now keep in my mind this is meant to be my mafia partner here. Realisitically there is no scum benefit for calling for that. That was a chance for the slot to redeem it'self.
And now this incident in which people started becoming convinced I was mafia. So I have been suspecting Yura/Haylen for about 2 day periods, trying to get them lynched(along with CMAR) and when they are about to get lynched I state how lynching due to set-up speculation is not a good idea. So when the momentum swung towards Haylen I stuck to my guns against the line of fire. But if I was mafia bussing my partner the entire time it would be strange not to go along with the lynch and instead of stick my head out like I did, inviting the suspicion on me. The entire point of bussing is to not look suspicious.

Long post is

quite

long

[Maxous]

As far as the contradiction between the meticulous planner and the gloating liar, I'm not sure it's such a huge contradiction.

Yes it is. I was either one or the other.
As for the possibility, I considered it regardless, even if others did'nt. They can draw thier own conclusions I suppose.

As long as we're applying generic scum tells to each other, though, why is it that you're content to maintain a defensive posture in this exchange? Shouldn't you be trying to get me lynched? Do you really think that your claim is so airtight that you don't actually need to convince anyone I'm scum? It seems to me that you're taking a passive and reactive position, trying to conservatively wait your way to a win without having to stick your neck out too far to actually build a case.

If I had a case on you and a reason to think you were mafia I would of mentioned it before this day period.
I figured the optimal strategy here would be show Regfan and Vollkan how and why

I'm

town and

my

claim is honest.
I don't have a 'subgenius is scummy' case. I have a process of elimination case. When I seen there was a NK from night 4 I triple checked my role PM to make sure I did'nt feck up anything! You were literally the last person I beleived to be mafia in this game.
Going through your ISO and reaching for scumtells is'nt going to be productive because you distanced yourself from your mafia pals the entire game.

Does not add up. Why did you vote him at the end of D4 if you believed his claim?

I mentioned quite a few times I thought CMAR was a

mafia

jailkeeper.

So scum doesn't bus now? You get town cred for busing regardless of how good your future parter might be. There is benefit.

Yes scum buss but bussing has to have a purpose. A reason. Regfan and CKD wanted to see what the replacement would say and were giving Yura a measure of the benefit of the doubt for being a newbie. Therefore the replacement might of stayed off the lynch.The cons of losing my mafia partner in that situation far outweighs the pro's of slightly having less suspicion on me.

I agree that this is strange. I can only speculate that at some point and for some reason you decided to focus your busing efforts on CMAR/Hindu. I don't know why. Perhaps you began defending Haylen because it started to look likely that you would end up with two lynched partners, which seemed like too much busing. I don't know.

There is no explantion for mafia max doing that...

[Maxous]

The scenario I was thinking of was:

Hinduragi would not jail and lie and said he did.
Hinduragi would jail somebody and lie about who he jailed.

Yes it was possible he would jail the person and tell the truth. But then he would have to explain his decision of why jail that particular person and we could judge him on that information.
It was a far better risk IMO to take than a 33% chance that on lucking out and catching his partner. Particulary as they were'nt guaranteed to send in the NK(which happened).

[Maxous]

I thought he might lie, I did'nt think he expected to be tracked. It is an awful pity he did'nt post during the two days I waited for him to answer, so he could possibly lie about it. Bgg actually ruined that for me...I should of held out for longer it seems but oh well.
Anyway i felt the chance of catching him lie was a far better than the off-chance of catching one of Vollkan, Scott or Subgenius send in a night kill. I did'nt have much of an opinion on who Hinduragi's partner was until day 4 with vollkan's "CMAR's claim makes this complicated etc."

Vollkan, I did not raise the possibility in a "derisory way".
I listed:
- conceivable possibilty no. 1
- conceivable possibilty no. 2
- conceivable possibilty no. 3
Yes myself bussing him *was* a possibility, I was not going to purposely omit it.
It entered my head becasue I thought of it, regardless if others did'nt.

I was looking at something(it did'nt come to anything) and I seen the reason Scott died on N3. He listed his suspects as Vollkan, CMAR and Subgenius. i.e. the only person in the game to suspect Subgenius. Scott did'nt mention any suspicion towards myself. The confirmed town Bgg was gunning for myself and Regfan (mostly myself) to be lynched.
Therefore it would be in Sub's best interests to kill Scott and keep Bgg alive, certainly not in mine. Scott dies instead of the confirmed town.
At the end of Day 4 Bgg was strongly coming around to the idea that I was town and stated a few times earlier that myself as CMAR/Hinduragi's mafia partner was unlikely. Regfan expressed doubt at how all this was going so smoothly and wondered if something weird was happening since both Vollkan and Sub agreed to the plan immediatly. So in Day 5 Bgg would of been more likely to beleive me than Regfan. Bgg dies.
This is against my interests and benefits Subgenius. This was illustrated when first chance he got, Subgenius mentions this Regfan. Along with 'Max did'nt kill Regfan in case he flipped with a gun role'.

Needless to say I would have a better chance of survival if one of Bgg or Scott was here rather Regfan and Vollkan. Preferrably both.
I feel a bit silly for not realising and pointing this out earlier.

Mafia Subgenius consistently distanced himself from his buddies in this game - apart from the chance he took of 'beleiving CMAR's claim after Haylen's flip and suspecting those voting for him' - and night killed those most likely not to beleive him come crunch time.

[Maxous]

Hmm, well regardless.. I did think of it. I still don't get why you see me as "deriding the notion"

This does not add up!

I suspected there might be 2 mafia before N3 due to comments but it was'nt a strong suspicion(convincement even) until after the night when I tracked Hinduragi to killing Scott.
In N3 I worked off the assumption that there was 3 mafia. Hence I tracked Hinduragi to see if he would lie about using his JK power.

___________________
__________________

Subgenius' actions as mafia has been simple in this game. Distance from his buddies to avoid suspicion and avoid being pegged as a scumteam.(honestly, doing a quick read through the ISO I still find it hard to beleive he was Truant's partner)
The only time he deviated from this was the time he saw a chance to get suspicion away from CMAR. (Scott noticed this and started to suspect Subgenius for it. This was actually all forgotten in the mist of busting Haylen and Scott's elimination afterwards. This is clearly the reason why Scott was killed over Bgg, Scott would'nt of forgotten that)
He saw that defending CMAR would'nt work so went back to distancing and beleived my claim etc. He notices Regfan's doubts at the end and kills Bgg who was more inclined to beleive me. He then tries to suggest some of my comments were scum-motivated and try to get me mislynched.

If you guys are more willing to beleive that myself as mafia night killed the people more inclined to beleive me in LYLO, fake claimed a power role, argued against the set-up speculation reasoning during Haylen's lynch inviting the suspicion on me, cleared Regfan as a gambit on Day 3(him being a realistic mislynch), cleared Vollkan as a gambit(reducing the lynch options to myself and Subgenius), suggested there was only 2 mafia as a deliberate misleading town tell, gloated and suggested myself as bussing Hinduragi in a derisory way to pour cold water on it, and whatever else you guys think I gambited on - simply to create a motherlode of WIFOM to bring into a deliberate one vs one confrontation against a very pro-town looking player then you guys are over-complicating things here.

Subgenius' suggestions have been now been concluded as explainable by myself "thinking differently at the time than the other town players".
The reasoning that I did'nt kill Regfan in case he flipped as a gun role was reaching. He has now admitted it was an "outlandish reason". Particualry because eliminating Bgg from my perspective is "strange". But crucially, not from Subgenius' perspective

He has decided to mention various possibilties(i.e. he of could of been... etc. etc.) and hope one of them stuck(which one has on vollkan unfortunatly :I).
He again tried with my comments about targeting Hinduragi 'not adding up.'

Sure Regfan may not agree that tracking Hinduragi was the best course of action for me to take in those circumstances - however

I did

and I made that choice.

VOTE: Subgenius

[Maxous]

The clearing of Regfan and myself both make sense as a WIFOM gambit - presenting it as implausible, when you clearly have the intellectual capacity to plan a gambit like this, is just wrong.

My point with all I mentioned is'nt that I don't have the "capacity", it's the praticality.
The actions as mafia would be counter-productive simply to get myself into a situation where I would have to attempt WIFOM my way into a mislynch.

That's my entire point here.

[Maxous]

This might sound strange but I just woke up a few minutes ago because I just realized something.

Maxous, there WAS a point where you believed the validity of Haylens claim, explain how you could possibly have considered the setup having:

-Town sledgehammer
-Town cop
-Town weakdoctor
-Town JOAT
-

Mafia

redirector?

Fixed.
Particulary with the SK and town PR's

[Maxous]

Oh wait you're probably referring to my 'town Haylen' arguements to keep it MYLO.

I was using an excuse Regfan. I had a roleblocking ability in my arsnel.
If we got the lynch wrong I figured I had an informed shot at roleblocking the mafia sending in the kill.
Particulary if they quick hammered or something similar

[Maxous]

I said the set-up speculation reasoning was a bad idea. Just because I think somebody is mafia does'nt mean any reasoning goes. I could of been wrong about her being mafia, and there was mafia taking advantage for an easy lynch.
I thought it was valid claim...as a mafia power.
I did'nt prefer to keep mafia alive I was stating my willingness to lynch Haylen most of Day 3.

For further clarification the arguement for bringing the game into LYLO was to make 100% certain of Bgg's alignment. We were likely going to lynch the same people(Haylen or CMAR) regardless of it being LYLO or MYLO. I was certainly going to push for the same people.
I saw it as more advantageous to keep it at MYLO as if we mislynched I had one last chance to save the game with my night ability.

[Maxous]

I don't think every part of the case against Max is WIFOM. In particular, the fact that he did not list the possibility of tracking Hindu to a kill shows an inconsistency in his story.

For the last time, yes I speculated on 2 but acted under WCS assumption of 3.
As it turns out I would of targeted the same person

anyway

but that was'nt my thinking when I decided the target.

Technically, it is possible that Maxous is town and Hindu went down easy in a conscious effort to look like a bus, but even when I try to look at it completely objectively (after all I'm quite biased when I consider this scenario), it just strikes me as exceedingly unlikely that a scum player would execute that kind of tactic on the fly without having any opportunity to discuss it with a scum partner.

He likely just made a mistake, since he did'nt have much time to react.
I doubt he purposely confirmed he targeted Scott just to make me look bad.

To be honest that second paragraph in particular is really quite streching the reasoning here.

[Maxous]

Edit: Oh it turns out he had a few hours. Huh, I thought it was a lot less.

Still if Hinduragi intentionally planned that then I will be extremely impressed.
More feasible he simply made a mistake...

[Maxous]

This is riddled with contradictions. I can understand not being sure that someone is mafia and being wary of mafia pushing an easy mislynch (after all, that is pretty much what happened when I unvoted CMAR), but I cannot understand trying to take the wind out of a case against one of your top suspects without fully researching the accusations.

If you can't understand why did you earlier say you accepted my explanation? #1253

but you also tried to argue that my point about her choice of defense was also invalid.

You're going to have to point this one out.

I would'nt call Hinduragi dumb but yeah he made a silly mistake(unless he is

far more manipulative

than I first thought :p).
It happens in games, especially when you have to lie.

1) At the end of D3, did you or did you not think Haylen was more likely scum than not?
2) At the end of D3, did you or did you not want Haylen lynched?
3) If you DID think Haylen was scum, but did not want here lynched, why not?

1) Yes
2) Well, no. I wanted CMAR/Hinduragi lynched. Haylen was my secondary choice however.
3) I was'nt again her lynch per se but was concerned at the reasoning given. I thought if she was town mafia might of been taking advantage for an easy mislynch. Ironically the main one was Subgenius(hence the questioning) Read this again.

Aside from what SubG's already said, I'm not sure what "mistake" you are alleging he made here. Hindu was a competent player and clearly had the ability to understand the game. Hence, I can't see how you can seriously say that Hindu might have thought he was achieving *something* but that he was, in fact, mistaken.

Emm..huh?
I think he made a mistake saying he jailed Scott o_O

[Maxous]

And again...not a chink in the response to be found.

FYI i certainly did'nt mean to imply your reasoning was "invalid" but I did find it a strange reason to vote for somebody.
Oh, also - just because I beleive somebody to be mafia does'nt mean i will accept all reasoning against them and not question people that are voting for them. As of course..

I could be wrong

. That would just be confirmation bias otherwise ^_^

I do find it amusing that Hinduragi's response will likely end up sinking the town despite me nailing a mafia.(he was probably going to be lynched anyway but whatever). I honestly don't think I could of used my night power much more effectively in this game
The irony is really not lost here :/

Anyway if Vollkan or Regfan have any more specific questions ask away.
Otherwise I have really run out of ideas on how to show you guys that I am indeed telling the truth. I got so little on Sub it's not even funny.

The most I got is the night kill selection and the strategy practicality as mafia(or lack of in my case).

[Maxous]

I was'nt going for a AtE. I was simply being honest that I don't have any more ideas on how to go about this. (I would'nt of expected Vollkan and Regfan to fall for such a ruse. Heart of glass ;_;)
I said nothing about resignation..Subgenius is mafia and I want him lynched.
I'm going to sound like a broken record at this stage but if a townie is night killed instead of a confirmed town

then there is a reason for it.

Nine times out of 10 the reason is that the confirmed town was on the wrong track. Otherwise the mafia would kill the confirmed town and nobody can pin WIFOM on them since the kill was obvious.
=> Myself and Regfan was/is the wrong track!

To whatever extent she might have appeared an "easy lynch" it could only have been a combination of Yura's transparently newb-scum play + Haylen's own scumminess + her impossible roleclaim. This is very different to an "easy lynch" in the sense of, say, pushing a wagon on a player who is bad at defending themselves - because Haylen was genuinely extremely scummy.

Bleh, that would of been fine if the reason for the lynch was 'Haylen is scummy'.
The actual reason was 'I don't think the mod would of put in a re-director so let's lynch her'
I did not realise how strict the rules were and thought exceptions were allowed since they said weak doctor and sledgehammer was an exception so it did'nt make sense to me at the time. I explained this in Day 4.
And yes okay, I should of properly checked first before posting. Learned my lesson :/

1.This is an incredibly awful point, because although he deviated for half a second he never showed intent to voting elsewhere

He said something to the effect of working off the assumption that the people suspecting CMAR are mafia.
That's as good as.

2A. This is just as bad an argument, you had already stated several times you beleived I was town before this position meaning 'not clearing me' wouldn't mean that you would be able to get me lynched at all.

Huh?
I stated a couple of times my beleive of yourself being mafia late Day 2 and then compeltely stopped on Day 3.
So if I was hypotetically making this up I would of had to of planned it Night 2 at the earliest. Hence the removing mislynch etc etc

2B. The second you claimed RB as your third power a player was going to be cleared regardless

The point is I that

I claimed RB in the first place.

[Maxous]

This is as WIFOM'y as it gets. I think SB would have made a good NK choice regardless of who the scum team actually was. He had made aggressive accusations against CMAR, Vollkan, Haylen, and myself. He brought a lot of energy to the town and was actively scum hunting while the rest of us were stuck in the doldrums. Not to mention, it's plausible that you and Hindu decided to kill him to set up a NK based case against whoever between Vollkan or myself ended up being the primary suspect, knowing that you were planning to clear Regfan. There's no telling why SB was killed, and there are several plausible explanations.

Stuck in the doldrums?
And yeah, agressive accusations against

other

people..

As for the NK case..that would be more plausible if I came up with it right away instead of leaving it so late(I did'nt think of it for ages unfortunatly ¬_¬) instead of.. you know bringing it up straight away after the kill.
That is how a mafia does a NK case. It is because thay are already thinking of the implications of the kill when they make it.
I actually wish I thought of half of this stuff at the start..might of made things smoother >_>

So, it was really the case that most people wanted her to be lynched, then she claimed and temporarily stalled the lynch, but then the claim was refuted, making the case against her even stronger.

That's really not how it came across to me but I'll digress.
Wheter or not I was correct is'nt important..it's that my intenions were

so obviously

genuine :p

Anyway we're definitly going around in circles at this stage..getting a bit weary of it to be honest -.-

[Maxous]

How did it come across to you?

..fine >.<

Scott's top suspects - Not Haylen.
Regfan. - Haylen was on his lynch list, he also said his preference was CMAR.
Subgenius - Intended to vote those people. No Haylen.
Bgg - Thought she was town.

3 of the 4 did'nt claim to want her lynched just before the revealation and even the 4'th said he would prefer CMAR.
That is why it was'nt a "Haylen is scummy" lynch regardless of the previous suspicion that forced her to claim in the first place. The sudden switch of 'oh this role is probably not in the game so let's lynch her' was based on her claim and the rules, not her actions. (with the exception of Regfan)
And as I mentioned in that post - her claim was not preventing her from being lynched. We all agreed if we beleived she was mafia at the end of the day then she would get lynched.

So yes it was set-up speculation based...which I argued against.
I thought a mafia might of been jumping on easily and Sub's votes still looks weird to me (for obvious reasons now).
This was Haylen first reaction. In hindsight, yes she was fake-claiming but why would you expect outrage and frustration from the player instead of simply saying 'you do realise one or two non-normal roles are allowed'. Of course you would explain how your role is allowed based on your understanding of the rules. Particulary if you have moderated a game before.
I thought it was weird at the time and yeah in hindsight he really looked for any excuse he could to jump on that Haylen bandwagon as soon as trouble started.

[Maxous]

If anyone had asked me a hypothetical RB vs RB question in the thread I would have provided clarification.

I should of asked this.
I did screw up my Night Power in the end..

The reason I thought the remaining mafia was'nt a roleblocker was because of the decision to kill Surprise Carcinogen instead of roleblock him. I felt as mafia blocking him would be the better option (he was'nt very trusted at the time). You know what they say about assumptions.

Well despite Day 5 being quite frustrating for me,(I felt Sub kicked my ass for most periods during the day.. I was shocked Regfan voted for him) I had a lot of fun with this game.
Vollkan did very well in this game particulary considering he was paired with two weaker members on his team..Come to think of it, he bussed Yura from her very first post.
I was indeed very surprised when the kill went through on Night 4 because 'the mafia had to be Vollkan I can't beleive it's Subgenius', ugh.
Eh, sorry if I came across as arrogant or such about my position on Day 5, I honestly did not have an idea of how to approach the day. I had very little on Subgenius being scummy..all I could come up with was a defense and then eventually a NK case. Wow, we spent around 2 weeks as town v town..

Well, good game mafia ^_^

[Maxous]

Pre-edit....Maxous, I don't see where you screwed up your night powers. You basically confirmed one townie and ID'd one scum. Other than passing on N1 I don't think there was anything you needed to do differently

As in I had a fear of clearing Vollkan and Regfan as town when they were'nt and it happened. :/

Still glad with the decision to pass on N1 though, I was planning on using my Gunsmith ability on Pappums Rat which would of been wasted. If I did'nt use the gunsmith ability on Regfan I would of surely caused him to get mislynched.

I don't envy your the choice you had to make there =)

[Maxous]

Heh, so it was a gambit - good one, the irony of the mafia member dragging me down with him was sickening me.(even if it ultimately did'nt happen)

I did'nt NL because I assumed Vollkan and Regfan were confirmed town and so to me, it would'nt of made a blind bit of difference.

If Vollkan did'nt kill we would of had 5 players left, and 2 lynches. Vollkan would of been lynched first - if unsuccesful then Subgenius.(If I got my way)

[Maxous]

Max you probably should have claimed 2 shot and hidden your last one. Once you mentioned you had a third ability then you essentially claimed it not soon after pretty much unprovoked.

Maybe you are correct..my thinking however was that there 2 candidates for mafia - Vollkan and Sub.
If the remaining mafia was anything other than a roleblocker and I did'nt claim RB while I roleblocked one of them that night.. if the other player had killed me, the town would'nt know who was 'clear' from being Roleblocked the previous night.
It seemed the best choice to make at the time :/