Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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What do you think the possibility is that Magnetic is Strong doctor?
That would explain why he claimed weak doctor, why he didn't know what it did, perhaps why he thought that claiming a role that he didn't know what did would clear himself.
He could've been scared that he would die, and take back his claim, and then put it back when he realizedit made him more suspiscious.
It's possible, if not likely.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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In case I wasn't clear, when I said "more logical reasons", I meant that I would have a vote with more logical reasons behind it.
Although, if you wish to believe that I already have many logical reasons why S_C is scum, and am deliberately witholding them from you for whatever reason, that is fine too.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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Pressure IS pressure. It could be any analogy.
If you hold up a dagger, and tell somebody that it is a dagger, it is still a dagger, and still serves its purpose.
If you hold the dagger up to somebody's neck, and say "I am only doing this to apply pressure to you so that you tell me this secret", you are not reducing any pressure of this threat.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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I didn't even remember who we were talking about. I have little reason to believe Maxie to be mafia.
Anyway, the lynch is in no waydecidedfor today. We could learn from keeping Magnetic alive, who knows. The point is that the fact that it was a pressure vote had absolutly nothing to do with the amount of pressure placed on the recipient of said vote.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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Even if you're scum, you don't just go do everything that town wouldn't do.
If somebody does something that town normally wouldn't do, I don't automatically assume that that person must be scum, because scum would have no reason to do such a thing.
Anyway, you seem to be saying that I came up with this idea because I wanted to gain credibility.
But that wasn't the reason that I did not vote him. On the contrary, I had thought that he the he was, indeed, scum. I wanted to gain information on other players before we lynched him. I was even thinking of keeping him alive as a kind-of scum-pet. Of course, if we had kept the day going, we may have found real scum, maybe even the SK. Not to mention the fact that we would have found out that there was indeed two mafia groups by now, possibly (but probably not) having him confirmed.
Only a few of the merits of not lynching him right away.
I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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Well, going around where/when magnetic was first lynched, I noticed Surprise_Carcinogen had voiced some suspiscions of me. More importantly, he called me an idiot. He proceded to metaphorically give me the finger by hammering magnetic the way he did, followed by some questionable logic.
@S_C: Do you still think I'm suspiscious?People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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vollkan wrote:bgg wrote: I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.bgg wrote: No, but if we extended the day, we may have found evidence to believe Magnetic, or found somebody more scummy than magnetic, to lynch somebody else.bgg+7
There was no reasonable argument against Magnetic's lynch, and the case for stalling was weak (let's not lynch right away, in case something happens!). Magnetic's was scummy as hell and, moreover, any reason for doubt relied on assuming he was trolling (which is an impossible assumption to make).
Faced with that, it's absurd that you would now turn around and attack those who lynched Magnetic, based on the off chance that the skies would open and proclaim his innocence. Coupled with your "too townie" rhetoric, the most reasonable explanation is that you are scum trying to capitalise on a quick lynch of a terrible (but ultimately town) player.
First of all, I could go on all day about what could've happened if we had extended the day.
Second, the main reasoning for prolonging the day is that we have more input from those who would've died last night. There are three people who arenow confirmed town, who have average 16 posts each. There were 48 posts total, 29 of which were Magnetic's.
Thirdly, I'm not saying we should not have lynched Magnetic, I'm saying that we should've used the time that was remaining in that day. We weren't going to make Magnetic look any better or worse, but we probably would have found much evidence about other possible scum.
Lastly, what "Too Townie" rhetoric are you referring to?People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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I find it extremely unlikely that Magnetic just guessed that there were two killing sources. There is no vig.
@Vollkan
You are saying that if we discussed further, we would not have any more substantial information, but scum would still be more informed.
If I am overstating the merits of longer days, then you are definately understating them.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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Is there a reason I shouldn't ask the question?
Sure, if he actually had to answer it would make me seem like scum, but if he isn't going to tell me, then it's fairly obvious that it's not going to actually affect anything.
If you attempt to analyze every post I make, most likely, you will come to the conclusion that you already had in mind before you started analyzing. It is quite possibly the most pointless thing that you can do in mafia.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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Maxous, I didn't answer your question for two reasons.
1. I had already specified the people who I was suspecting. It wasn't a broad statement like "all the jumpy people" where a lot matters on opinion and context. It specified a group of people that can easily be identified.
2. The reason I am not naming said individuals, is because I wasn't saying "I suspect these people, the people who did this.", I was saying "Doing this is a scummy thing to do". Does that make sense to you?People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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The people that I would be referring to are not unidentified. You can find out who they are whenever you feel like it. The fact that you do not do so makes me think that you want me to say their names, so that you can make a big thing about how those people have nothing scummy about them, and make a case on me for it.
Furthermore, I did not "change my tune" or whatever you like to call it.
If I were to say "I suspect the people who made the 3rd and 6th posts." that would imply that I knew who they were and may think that they are scum for whatever reason.
If I were to say "I suspect whoever made the 3rd and 6th posts." then it would imply that my suspiscions relied not on the people, and whatever else that they might have done, or even what is on those posts, but on the fact that I believed the act of posting third and sixth is scummy.
Before anybody makes a big thing about it, I do not believe that the act of posting third and sixth is scummy.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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I was going to say yura-chi, but looking back at how she played so far, I would think that she isn't good enough to play as scum without giving a few more tells than she has so far.
Anyway, I didn't specify seven people with that statement. The way it is worded, I only specified two.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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"
It's not exactly a list, but it's a start."Surprise_Carcinogen wrote:Try...absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored. From the RQS thing early on that you haven't said a thing about, on to the magnetic thing which you almost entirely ignored, or maybe any of the debates so far that you've said nothing about. Your 'case' against me is the most content we've gotten from you all game, and I'll be damned if it's of any quality at all.
Written B4 S_C's post.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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It is a little more like...
several days ago...
People 3 & 4 did X
Today...
Person 1: "I suspect whoever did X."
Person 2: "Who do you suspect?"
Person 1: "I'm not saying I suspect them in particular, just the thing that they did."
Person 2: "That is a large group of people that you say you suspect."
Person 1: "It's just 2 people."
Person 3: "So you think I did something scummy, but you don't necessarily suspect me in particular?"
Person 1: "Exactly! Now I'll go try to scumhunt."
Person 2 makes post #344People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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He has only ever said anything resembling "I'll tell you tommorrow" once. That's hardly a pattern.Surprise_Carcinogen wrote:but I'm finding a disturbingpatternof "I'll tell you tomorrow"
One gold star for the beginning part of subgenius's new post.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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bgg1996 Goon
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Well, your contributionandrew94 wrote:Surprise_Carcinogen wrote:Another small problem I have is thatyou are, apparently, fos-ing maxous...for thinking you're town...And you're fos-ing Sub for a reason that, on the surface looks nice, but in practice is stretching at best. Currently thinking an Andrew/Yura team, or possibly one of the two is SK. Given their dialogue, I'm thinking that Reg and CKD are likely both town, but I haven't had more then one or two games with an SK before(And one of the setups was REALLY weird) so I'm not exactly sure how they read.
hmm? are you saying if everyone calls me town then i cant fos or vote ANYONE since they all think im to win? that seems like an epic way to say 'i like it that your contributing now' then 'but ur contribution is bad, this is why etc'.wasbad. You didn't give your opinions on any events that took place. The last day's lynch was the most important thing that happened so far, and the only thing that you had to say about it was where you were at the time. You don't even mention everyone, let alone your opinions on them. The people you do mention you give one, two sentences tops.
Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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subgenius wrote:It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.WRONG!
Here's a nice quote from the wiki to help explain why.
To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia wrote:Do not go gently into that good night.
Lynching a Townie is a bad thing in general, but lynching a confirmed Townie is worse. To yourself, you ARE a confirmed Townie. While getting lynched is not the end of the world, the fact is that getting lynched is the one thing you can guarantee will hinder your faction. Do not acquiesce to your lynch unless it would be clearly anti-Town to do otherwise (although those situations are not common).
Along these same lines, the occasions where it's pro-Town to self-hammer as Town are extremely limited, and offing yourself out of spite toward the (evident) morons who are about to lynch you isn't one of those occasions. Even if the wagon on you is mostly Town, you still have to win with them in the end, so stay helpful.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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Have I tunneled already? I didn't think I even made an accusation yet.vollkan wrote:It's obviously true that, as town, you should do everything you can to stop yourself getting lynched.
HOWEVER, town also has other objectives which necessarily modify the way that they should go about "not getting lynched". Lumping suspicion onto another player by tunneling, for the purpose of saving your own ass is technically "pro-town" if you are confirmed town. However, you are completely ignoring the fact that there are other, much more pro-town, ways that you can avoid getting yourself lynched - ie. by honestly explaining your behaviour or actually making decent, non-tunneling attacks.
This is why your "I might tunnel people" suggestion is scummy. Whilst you can argue that it's technically pro-town, it nonetheless involves you making a clear choice to take a far less-than-optimal approach (ie. by knowingly playing badly). Whatever you can claim about subjective knowledge of your own alignment, for the rest of us it's a matter of trying to work out your alignment from your objectively evidenced motivations. If you are choosing to play in a self-interested manner, rather than a manner which objectively helps the town (ie. which can be considered pro-town even if we don't assume a priori that you are pro-town) then that can constitute a scumtell
The tunneling itself may be bad play, but I am only warning you that it is a possible side effect. Besides, if one of you earlier posts is any judge, your definition of "tunneling" is a bit different than mine.
Anyway, you have yet to tell mewhymy argument is BS.
My argument is specifically made against this sentence
"It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"It's scummy because scum hunting ordoing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"Defending yourself is scummy."
Somebody's argument is BS, but it certaintly isn't mine.
Made as post #417People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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Yes, but the bad part of false-claiming is that it kills power roles, protecting yourself isn't the scummy part.subgenius wrote:
Absolutely not true. For example, false claiming a power role might prevent you from getting lynched, but it is not pro-town, because it can result in outing a real power role or taking doctor protections from real power roles. That is not pro-town at all. An individual townie doesn't win by surviving at all costs. He wins by finding scum and getting them lynched.bgg1996 wrote:To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.
Going after scum doesn't really have a bad part, and it comes with the added bonus of not getting killed.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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Actually they are directly relevant, but that's not my point. I'm saying that you seem to be kind-of hypocritical. At least I am helping in a small way by showing you how wrong your theories are. All of you are just tunneling on each-other. Look at your examples of "scumminess" in his ISO. Saying something without elaborating isn't a scum-tell, it even happens all the time. If you were confused by his reasons you should've asked.Regfan wrote:Are you attempting to draw comparisons between yours and my play to attempt to paint your actions as townier, if so that's futile and irrelevant. My actions hold no relevance and don't have any indication of your allignment. I've already stated my thoughts on who mafia are and am waiting for CKD to respond. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the interaction and bickering that's gone on between me and CKD.
@Regfan The last post you quoted was in response to S_C's last post.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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Like I said, you apparently have a different definition of tunneling than I do. I believe the word to mean, more or less, you are magnifying the amount of scumminess you see. I think that a bit of tunneling (by that definition, at least) is a fine price to pay to scumhunt at normal levels.vollkan wrote:bgg wrote: Have I tunneled already? I didn't think I even made an accusation yet.
The tunneling itself may be bad play, but I am only warning you that it is a possible side effect. Besides, if one of you earlier posts is any judge, your definition of "tunneling" is a bit different than mine.
Anyway, you have yet to tell me why my argument is BS.
My argument is specifically made against this sentence
"It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"Defending yourself is scummy."
Somebody's argument is BS, but it certaintly isn't mine.bgg+7
And again you resort to semantics.
Let's review the paper trail.
You said:
Whether or not it's a side-effect is irrelevant - you appear to be seriously suggesting that it's okay for you to make bad accusations (which is, by definition, what tunneling involves) in order to save yourself. I've explained why this is scummy.bgg wrote: Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.vollkan wrote:
Subg makes the obvious response:
You make your rebuttal, which I counter-rebut.subg wrote: To answer your question (even though I suspect that you are fully aware of the answer), It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy. Town hunts scum because it helps acheive their win condition, not because it makes them look town.
And now you have the gall to reduce subg's initial argument to "Defending yourself is scummy" when it isf***ing obviousfrom the initial context of this discussion that this has been about YOUR indication that you might tunnel.
WTF?!subg wrote: To answer your question (even though I suspect that you are fully aware of the answer), It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy. Town hunts scum because it helps acheive their win condition, not because it makes them look town.
How is this_ no, what does this quote have anything to do with tunneling?!
Now you're just BSing us.
Furthermore, the statement that I quoted says quite clearly that defending yourself is scummy.
It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.
scumhunting or anything else is the exact same thing as doing anything.
That makes it It's scummy because doing anything for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.
That includes defending yourself.
Pure tu quoque[/quote]bgg1996 wrote:I don't see you finding any scum.
Pure appeal to hypocracy? Maybe. There's nothing wrong with it, at least that I can tell.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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I would be glad to. Let's say that scumminess actually could be measured on a scum-scale. (it cannot)Regfan wrote:
Educate me, how are they related?Actually they are directly relevant, but that's not my point.
Now let's say that my scum-reading is 80 (higher is scummier). Now, the highest, of course, would be confirmed scum, the lowest confirmed town. Let's say that everyone but me and three other people are confirmed town. I'm obviously either scum or SK. On the other hand, let's say that there are 4 confirmed scum. (this is all going under the assumption of 3 scum, 1 SK). I am then confirmed town. Now let's say that there are four people, whose scum-meters read very high, and the rest of us hover around eighty. On the other hand, if the majority was far below me. Then, I would be most likely scum. The point is that since there are a set number of scum, scumminess is completely relative to the other members of the town.
Now hopefully, at least one of you understood that mess, and can actually help him understand it.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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I'm leaning towards Andrew. Other than that, I suppose that vollkan just told a fib, Yura-chi is being completely unhelpful, and... Not very much else.Surprise_Carcinogen wrote:Idea: Let's listen to Max, drop the subject, and stick to a real question: Who do you think is scum, Bgg?
I'm never really able to scumhunt very well, because I can always come up with reasons why somebody would do something scummy. For example, I bet that vollkan was convinced that subgenius was talking about my warning that I may tunnel because that is what he was obsessed about.
Before I drop the subject: Would a mafia member tell you that he was doing something that he believed was scummy? Either I'm not a mafia member, or I don't believe it is a scummy thing to do. If I don't think it's a scummy thing to do, then I would do it regardless of whether I was mafia or townie. Then how is it scummy, regardless of whether it may be anti-town?
@Vollkan, 1. What if everybody in the town was "robbing banks"?
2. I still should've pointed it out, since you're saying that it can be a scumtell.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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bgg1996 Goon
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No, not necessarily. I'm saying that, with an ideal scum-meter, people who are scummier will have a greater chance of being actual scum.Regfan wrote:That's actually highly incorrect bgg1996, very very incorrect. In fact that logic is so stupid it's not even funny.
You're saying, if a townie is scummy, then mafia will be scummier then him still.People both love and hate me... Without the 'love' part.-
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