Mini 1137: Long Overdue Mafia [Game Over!]

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm going to

unvote

In case I'm voting for somebody. I start getting caught up ASAP.

[Bub Bidderskins]

First thing:

Hello Cecily. I see you still remember that 3.5 hour lynch . Not going to comment on that because that game is still on-going.

Second thing:

Wow, day-cop claim on page four. I'm tempted to believe this claim, though, because claiming day-cop on D-1 is a lot of risk for a scum player to try and get a mislynch when if they just let events take their course they're probably going to get one in anyway. I don't like Voidedmafia's response to the claim at all. Instead of being shocked at it, he immediately tries to discredit pappums rat. It's sort of like saying "Damn it, you caught me!". Not going to vote for him yet because I don't know the current vote count, but I'll

HoS

him for now.

[Bub Bidderskins]

...

Are you reading through this and commenting as you go?

Yes. A quick glance at the current vote count tells me that obviously something happened.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, up to page 9 now. I'm tempted to think that Pappums is town because I don't see his gambit benefitting scum any way. I know it's WIFOM, but the reality is that here on mafiascum we lynch people for that kind of crap so often that scum wouldn't do it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Sorry for getting prodded, but real life has kept me from doing a serious re-read. Working on it now.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Sorry for getting prodded, but real life has kept me from doing a serious re-read. Working on it now.

WTF Bub? Are you still

"Working on it?"

I really do not care for people who coast or contribute nothing. I really appreciate people who are good enough to replace in to a game and help another group of mafia players out. Thanks for replacing in Bub...how about doing us a favor and replacing out if you can't contribute ANYTHING to the game you joined over 8 days ago. Five posts you have made. You've made almost as many posts (4) in other games/threads just in the last ten hours

And Cecily...I see you lurking as well.

I'm really sorry it took so long, but my access has been limited and I wanted to do a good read.

At this point, I don't really like either of the two main wagons.

Rat never looked scummy to me until the end of his part in this game, where he totally blew his top. I read this more as frustrated townie than as cornered scum. It seemed like he was fed up with this game and just wanted out, whether it was because he was lynched or modkilled or replaced.

I read fitz as scummier than rat, but not the scummiest player. He has really been out there and very abrasive, which is not very characteristic of scum. It seems like he has gone out of his way to annoy people, and that is totally against the mafia's motives.

Jahudo has also been diplomatic and fence-sitting, but I've played with him before and that's how he normally plays. Still...

@Jahudo: Fitz, the rat slot, or neither?

Either way, rat and fitz are totally incompatible, i.e. they aren't both scum.

Right now, my top suspects are actually Neil and Pine.

Pine listed fitz as his number two, somewhat far behind rat. If/when rat was lynched and flipped town, he could go after fitz (who would be natural choice after a rat town-flip). Bang, boom, bop and the scum have two back-to-back mislynches with very little for the town to go on. If the fitz wagon took control, he could just go for his back-up option, and then if fitz flipped town he could attack rat again saying "I knew his was scummier from the start."

Neil's situation is different, though. He attacked fitz a great deal, the main pusher of the rat wagon (which he was on). Even though he says that he doesn't think fitz is scummy, he still attacks him. He does very little actual pushing on rat, and spends most of his time attacking fitz. That shows that he has little confidance in the rat wagon because he knows it's a mis-lynch.

Vote: Neil

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, now my brain officially hurts, but I feel good knowing I can finally enjoy this game. Again, I'm sorry for my delayed response.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Neil's situation is different, though. He attacked fitz a great deal, the main pusher of the rat wagon (which he was on). Even though he says that he doesn't think fitz is scummy, he still attacks him. He does very little actual pushing on rat, and spends most of his time attacking fitz. That shows that he has little confidance in the rat wagon because he knows it's a mis-lynch.

Little confidence, or could he simply be hounding his other suspect while he waits for the lynch he's sure will be a good one to pull through?

Of course, it's not like we can't always vote one guy, then press another <_<. No, that's too scummy.

The fact is that the wagons on fitz and rat are totally opposite. They're incompatible as scum partners, and thus pressuring both at the same time is counter-productive from a town point of view.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Neil's situation is different, though. He attacked fitz a great deal, the main pusher of the rat wagon (which he was on). Even though he says that he doesn't think fitz is scummy, he still attacks him. He does very little actual pushing on rat, and spends most of his time attacking fitz. That shows that he has little confidance in the rat wagon because he knows it's a mis-lynch.

Little confidence, or could he simply be hounding his other suspect while he waits for the lynch he's sure will be a good one to pull through?

Of course, it's not like we can't always vote one guy, then press another <_<. No, that's too scummy.

The fact is that the wagons on fitz and rat are totally opposite. They're incompatible as scum partners, and thus pressuring both at the same time is counter-productive from a town point of view.

but

that doesn't mean he can't do that

.

Why does Neil have to not pressure Fitz because they're not partners? Do you think that Neil cannot get anything else from Fitz at this point? I want reasons why it can't be done, not why it shouldn't.

But he's putting a ton of pressure on somebody who was the main pusher of the wagon he was on. There was also this post:

I agree, this is kind of aggravating. However I don't agree with the L.A.L style of Mafia, so I can't justify lynching him just because he lied, despite how anti-town that is. I kind of understand his view, as far as trying his luck at reaction fishing. However there are better ways then this, and he could've single handedly caused a stupid lynch on perhaps a town PR, and then we'd be **** out of luck at the start of Day 2, especially if scum hit ANOTHER town PR during the night. So I WOULD be up for lynching him for the single purpose that he almost caused a lynch on someone that may or may not be scum, all because he was "reaction fishing." In fact:

VOTE: UNVOTE: Xalxe

VOTE: VOTE: Pappums

It seems like he wants to be on the rat wagon, but wants to distance himself from the main logic pushing: fitz' logic.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Neil: You said that you do not agree with Lynch All Liars, but you said you would lynch pappum rat, not because of his lie, but because of what the lie could have done. Isn't that the logic behind Lynch All Liars?

[Bub Bidderskins]

EBWOP for ninja: Dismissing my case as WIFOM won't make it go away. How is it WIFOM? Explanation please.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Well welcome Bub. I hope this flurry of activity lasts. I have not looked at neil that much since my focus on pappum was joined by Cecily and IK. With my current uncertainty towards the pappum role, that would bump up the possibility that neil was scum IMO. But it's not a strong enough feeling towards neil to want to see him go today over Cecily...and perhaps Pine or IK.

So I'm thinking my top five atm are: Cecily, IK & Pine, neil OR pappum.
****************

@Cecily...thanks for chiming in and saying nothing.

Wow, this post right here makes me worry about my town assessment of you. How on earth does his post contribute anything at all towards your view of me? Here's what I think: You simply take a (fluffed WIFOM filled case) and make it seem like it's more then what it is, and then use it as justification to try to get rid of me because I'm causing you trouble. Why would a town motivated person do this?

In fact, this causes me so much worry I'm but a second away from changing my vote onto you.

You haven't answered my questions, Neil.

@Neil: You said that you do not agree with Lynch All Liars, but you said you would lynch pappum rat, not because of his lie, but because of what the lie could have done. Isn't that the logic behind Lynch All Liars?

Dismissing my case as WIFOM won't make it go away. How is it WIFOM? Explanation please.

Please answer my questions. How is my case fluff filled WIFOM?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Well welcome Bub. I hope this flurry of activity lasts. I have not looked at neil that much since my focus on pappum was joined by Cecily and IK. With my current uncertainty towards the pappum role, that would bump up the possibility that neil was scum IMO. But it's not a strong enough feeling towards neil to want to see him go today over Cecily...and perhaps Pine or IK.

So I'm thinking my top five atm are: Cecily, IK & Pine, neil OR pappum.
****************

@Cecily...thanks for chiming in and saying nothing.

Cecily has been acting scummy, too. She's taken the position that scum would want to take: split between both wagons ready to hop on the other one the next day. Also, I really don't like her switch post:

Well now, this post could ruin me, or you guys could read it like I'm intending for it to be read and not jump instantly to "flail flail flail". Please choose the latter.

My original reason for voting fitz is because of his emotional responses to pappums gambit. He seemed to take it as an attack on the town (which could be one way to interpret it), yet reacted much more forcefully than what everyone else expected. Up until a few posts ago, that was the scummiest behavior out of anyone in here and like I pointed out initially I like to assess people based off of how they react, not necessarily what they say. I agreed with pappums "fuck you" because the walls and baiting that fitz does are obnoxious and do seem at times to be mostly just to piss people off.

Now, pappums is the one with overly emotional responses. If I'm sticking with my original argument of voting based off of how people react, then his last post consisting of only obscene remarks definitely takes the cake. And because it will probably come up, I only defended pappums in his reasoning for the gambit. If anyone wants to call me out now for something else, please do, I may have forgotten, but defense of his actions was solely reserved for the gambit.

I repeat, I was not consistently defending him, only agreeing with his reasons for voting fitz, so no fair calling me out on that for switching my vote.

unvote
vote: pappums

And I don't have time or energy to go over other people right now so, sorry.

Bold is mine. If she was town, she wouldn't have the need to justify her actions because she would know that her motives were just. This post was an attempt to switch wagons because at that time, she saw that the rat wagon had more steam.

As for Idiot King, what's so scummy about him? I've got a town read on him myself.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Rat never looked scummy to me until the end of his part in this game, where he totally blew his top. I read this more as frustrated townie than as cornered scum. It seemed like he was fed up with this game and just wanted out, whether it was because he was lynched or modkilled or replaced.

So you are saying his late actions did look scummy, but you are reading it as frustrated townie? I'm leaning towards that explanation too. Clearly he thought his gambit was going to be better received and wasn't prepared to defend it in the long run. His attitude looked like frustration from that.

@Jahudo: Fitz, the rat slot, or neither?

If you are asking me who I think is more likely to be scum, my fitz vote can explain that. I think the gambit served a scumhunting purpose that helped me get reads on several players, but unfortunately the two hardest players to read from it are pappums and voided because they had inside information. But my gut says both of them are alright.

Oops, sorry I missed your fitz vote, that was totally my fault. Generally, I find cautious, diplomatic play like yours to be scummy, but I've played with you before and I know that's how you play. Right now, I've got a neutral read on you.

[Bub Bidderskins]

At the time, the only basis for your "stron case" was that pappums lied, which in of itself does not justify your tunneling on him. IK brought up some valid points against you. However, you are right that he hasn't posted much recently.

Hey, Idiot King, what do you think of Neil?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Nacho, from your answer to #4 it sounds like you're approaching it with a closed mind. Don't do that, as it shuts down your ideas for options outside of those two. Tunneling doesn't benefit us as town.

Neil, your aversion to answering my questions is noted.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Neil seems to be ignoring me at the moment. Even though I do think he's the scummiest player, I'm okay with a Voided lynch with the deadline being tomorrow.

unvote; vote: VoidedMafia

I agree with the case on him, and he's certainly a better lynch than nachoman or fitz.

[Bub Bidderskins]

*sigh* I wish I was around before the lynch happened. This is NOT a good start for us guys. So let's go ahead and get rid of one scum while we can:

VOTE: tarsonisocelot

Gut feeling makes you seem very suspicious to me. Something about your case wasn't right, and I felt it then but I didn't step out like I should have and ISO'd you. So I'm going to be doing that shortly.

So who should have lynched instead of Voided yesterday?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Arg! Should read: So who should

we

have lynched instead of Voided yesterday?

[Bub Bidderskins]

*sigh* I wish I was around before the lynch happened. This is NOT a good start for us guys. So let's go ahead and get rid of one scum while we can:

VOTE: tarsonisocelot

Gut feeling makes you seem very suspicious to me. Something about your case wasn't right, and I felt it then but I didn't step out like I should have and ISO'd you. So I'm going to be doing that shortly.

So who should

WE

have lynched instead of Voided yesterday? (edited by Bub)

I would have rather seen my top suspect flip obviously. But I actually believed Voided's claim for as much as I could without proper evidence, so his flip did nothing to help me find scum.

Pre-Edit: What is your case on me Fitz? That I pushed you? And everyone should take note, this is the first time Fitz has suspects OTHER then those who have questioned and pushed him! I'm proud of you Fitz! Though I still your only case on me that isn't stretching or misrepresenting, would have to be because your sour that I pushed you last day phase. Which I admit, I shouldn't have done now that I'm convinced there's really no way you could be scum and play the way you've played.

Okay. Who was your top suspect?

[Bub Bidderskins]

So, if Pappums Rat was your suspect then, what made you switch to TO? Now all of a sudden he is scummy and you haven't even mentioned Pappums Rat today. Do you still think the rat/nacho slot is scummy? Also, this reaction of yours was very scummy to me:

*sigh* I wish I was around before the lynch happened. This is NOT a good start for us guys. So let's go ahead and get rid of one scum while we can:

VOTE: VOTE: tarsonisocelot

Gut feeling makes you seem very suspicious to me. Something about your case wasn't right, and I felt it then but I didn't step out like I should have and ISO'd you. So I'm going to be doing that shortly.

Saying how terrible it is that a townie was lynched reads as scummy to me. Then you make a weak case based solely on gut on somebody who you had no suspision of whatsoever the previous day.

vote: Neil

I agree that Pine is scummy as well.

Goddamnit. I've got to learn to stick with my first instincts in this game, and not get swayed at the last minute.

VOTE: VOTE: Nachomamma8

You're stuck with PR's legacy and massive scum pings. Add on top of that the fact that he nearly succeeded in getting a Townie mislynched, and you helped finish the job, this vote IS NOT MOVING without a compelling reason.

His reaction is similar to Neil's (and similarly scummy) in that he tells everybody how bad it is that a townie was lynched, and then he moves back to the PR/nacho case.

FoS: Pine

@Neil: What do you think of the pine case?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I believe I've got a bit of explaining to do for yall after the game. I think you'll understand my playing style a lot better. Until then, I will admit something I'm not proud of. Day 1, I was so set on the Pappums lynch that I had really tunneled and not payed much attention to everyone else unless for some strange reason, I was brought up by them. I then went over the cases people presented against Voided and there were only two that stuck out to me. One I kind of dismissed, because I'm always cautious when it comes to the person hammering. That's Pine, obviously. The second was TO's case. It just didn't sit right with me, I think because the way I read it, it sounded more forced then anything else.

Bud, take a look at your case again. You don't have one. Try real scum hunting, and don't focus on me.

Also Fitz, I didn't say it was the first time you targeted me. I have a feeling you're looking at my posts and specifically trying to find places to start an argument with me. Even to the extent as stretching, like you did in a recent post. I don't understand why you're doing this, though I have some ideas, but I refuse to get into some logic debate with you right now. I believe you're town, and I know I am, so arguing with you won't do the town much good. If you still feel the need to lynch me, so that you can see you're wrong for yourself, feel free too. I believe once in awhile, everyone has to realize they're wrong at some point and if it takes my lynch to show you that, so be it. But the reason I'm defensive, is because you've now tunneled with your perception on me. You have no real suspicions, and I have looked over your ISO. Your cases aren't real. They are fabricated, stretched, perspectives that you've used my own words and changed them around or taken them out of context. I still have yet to see a single good point you've brought up that I have not acknowledged lately. This is why I'm led to believe, the only reason you don't like my play, is because it's been focused on you for a good part of the game. I'm not saying recently, I'm saying for a good part of the game. So please don't take this out of context again by saying I haven't targeted you recently, because I have said nothing about recently here.

Pro-tip: When accusing somebody of doing something, it's best to not be doing it yourself. Case in point: in the very same post that you accuse me of tunneling, you yourself admit to tunneling. Hypocracy much? Furthermore, you tell me to do real scum hunting in a post where you don't do any real scumhunting. This post doesn't ask any player tough questions, doesn't pressure any player, doesn't attempt to find scum in any way. All it is trying to do is to get two people of his back, a very scum mentality. You spend a whole massive paragraph attacking a player that you yourself say is town.

Neil, you say that I have no case on you, and yet a few posts ago you had this to say:

I can see your actually trying, or appearing to be trying, So I give you credit for that. However, you have no case against me sir so I see no reason to warrant a response. The only answer I could give you is WIFOM because your case is WIFOM.

Thus admitting that I have a case (if a WIFOM-y one) while at the same time saying I don't have. I asked you several times how my case was WIFOM, and you have yet to respond. I asked you in my last post what you thought of Pine and you have yet to respond. You see Neil, the thing with you is that you are constantly contradicting yourself and you only respond to people when they attack you. You are always defensive, and attack people who you think are town. That, my friend, is a scummy mindset. My vote is set.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Hmmm, Pine's post seems wordy and desperate. He knows he's in a corner and is trying to find a way out of it with a cleverly disguised OMGUS.

Pine, who did you track last night?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Mikemike seems like a terrible tracker choice. I've never played as a tracker before, but I assume that you would want to target somebody who you thought was scum to try and get them targetting the night kill. Right?

Pine: Why mikemike and not a scum suspect?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Vote: Chkflip

Now with the knowledge that Pine is scum, this post looks really bad:

UNVOTE: P.T.
VOTE: Satael

Way too interested in rushing the current wagon, amongst other scummy things they've done.

That was the extent of the case that chk was presenting against Sateal. It was a terribly weak vote, and it reads of chk trying to attack the attacker of a scumbud (chainsaw defense).

@Chk: What made Satael's pushing of the pine wagon scummy at that time?

[Bub Bidderskins]

No, wait.

unvote

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay.

vote: Chkflip

Sorry about that, but, with two townie kills last night, I wanted to make sure that my math was right and we weren't in MYLO.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Vote: Cecily

She waffled on the Pine wagon yesterday A LOT, which suggests that she was unsure of which position to take on her scumbuddy's wagon. We go from Pine is an inevitable lynch and will die anyways here, to attacking havingfitz for rushing the wagon here. I find this a bit more damning that chkflip's play because he at least was consistent.

PT Barnum, havingfitz, and mike are pretty much confirmed town at this point.

I agree, except I would at Satael to the list of town. He basically orchestrated the Pine lynch. That leaves:

Nacho
Chk
Cecily
Myself

I know I'm town, and I've got a town read on Nacho (pine's constant attacks on Pappums vouch for him). So that leaves Chk and Cecily as the remaining scum simply by the process of elimination, without even getting into the cases on those two.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Vote: Chkflip

Now with the knowledge that Pine is scum, this post looks really bad:

UNVOTE: P.T.
VOTE: Satael

Way too interested in rushing the current wagon, amongst other scummy things they've done.

That was the extent of the case that chk was presenting against Sateal. It was a terribly weak vote, and it reads of chk trying to attack the attacker of a scumbud (chainsaw defense).

@Chk: What made Satael's pushing of the pine wagon scummy at that time?

Doesn't seem a great scum tactic to me ... Pine was looking very likely to be lynched, not sure that scum would want to put their head on the line by trying to slow down the wagon. Yeah agreed 100% on the weak vote though.

WIFOM

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Nacho if you'll read through the first post that you pulled of mine in the last sentence I state that while I know that Pine will be lynched and am totally for that I don't see the point in rushing a day that could prove helpful. And in this case it did prove helpful because everyone except for chk commented on Pine and then chk came in and accused the person who started the wagon. Setael's read was spot on and going against it was stupid on his part and indicates that he really didn't want to have to make up something about Pine.

Another point of evidence is the very last thing TO said about her FoS being chk. While her claiming her role was stupid no one would have believed her had the scum not lynched yesterday and the town would have jumped on her anyways, she straight called out chk and given how naive his play style has been otherwise I'd call it a very rookie NK and say that that is evidence enough for me.

vote: chkflip

Who do you think is most likely chk's scum-bud?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Vote: Cecily

She waffled on the Pine wagon yesterday A LOT, which suggests that she was unsure of which position to take on her scumbuddy's wagon. We go from Pine is an inevitable lynch and will die anyways here, to attacking havingfitz for rushing the wagon here. I find this a bit more damning that chkflip's play because he at least was consistent.

PT Barnum, havingfitz, and mike are pretty much confirmed town at this point.

I agree, except I would at Satael to the list of town. He basically orchestrated the Pine lynch. That leaves:

Nacho
Chk
Cecily
Myself

I know I'm town, and I've got a town read on Nacho (pine's constant attacks on Pappums vouch for him). So that leaves Chk and Cecily as the remaining scum simply by the process of elimination, without even getting into the cases on those two.

Hang on a minute ... up to recently we were discussing how big the scum team was - now you seem to have decided that its a three man team to the extent you are doing your maths on workin out whether we are in Mylo. Do you know something we don't?

Anything Pine said on the scum team size is irrelevent.

Way too blinkered to be considering anyone as 'confirmed town' as well (applies to Nacho as well) . I actually have suspicions on PT still and am not prepared to 100% discount my Day 1 thoughts on Fitz when I was 100% sure he was scum.

Who do you think is scum, then?

[Bub Bidderskins]

PT, why is it that you only post content against people who are attacking you?

[Bub Bidderskins]

PT, why is it that you only post content against people who are attacking you?

well, I did comment on chkflip, so I don't think that's strictly true. But otherwise, it's coincidence. I think mike is scum and I wanted to defend myself against setael. I can't think of anything else to say.

Is it also a coincidence that the only time you voiced your suspicions of mike was

after

he attacked you?

unvote; vote: PT

[Bub Bidderskins]

@MOD: My computer crashed this morning, and I'm going to be V/LA until its fixed.

OK, noted

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, I'm back from V/LA. I'm getting caught up right now; expect some content this afternoon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub ... I'm getting more and more wary of you. Been reading through the last few days and you seem to be posting just fluff, nothing questions, questionable votes and agreeing with people.

You voted PT ... seemingly purely because he attacked someone who attacked him (ie me). That's about as woolly a reason (see previous description of what woolly means people) as I've seen for voting for anyone. Which combined with 731 looks bad indeed.

Post 731 - you are more than happy to agree with Nacho's assessment that me, PT (who you later vote for little reason) and Fitz (why does everyone think he is town anyway ?) are confirmed town. And then happily add another couple to the confirmed list ... no one is confirmed at this point don't make out they are.

Post 727 - Little thing but you seem very sure how big the scum team is and its only the scum team who know that (and Rhino natch).

Post 725 you voted Chkflip for aggain what seems like a very simplistic reason (one post on Satael). You seem to be knee-jerk reacting to anyone that could be seen as even slightly scummy. Scum don't try and scum hunt they try and use what others post to their advantage.

Post 606 - you vote Voided because 'I agree with the case on him'. This is kind of like the demo of all of your scumsigns here - voting town (you vote Neil day 2), agreeing with people blindly, voting for no satisfactory reason (I mean come on - I agree with the case on him).

You have floated out a range of very basic questions of the nature of -who do you think is scum' (you have asked variants of this question a lot). This to me points at someone who is trying hard to look pro-town. Doesn't look like natural scum hunting at all to me.

And yes as PT kindly pointed out, Jerbs wasn't exactly un town like either. And with that ...

Vote Bub

Before you ask ... I've not forgotton about you Fitz so I guess its a bit more tap dancing on that front. But we should lynch Bub today.

The reason I'm voting for PT is that he has consistently only posted content targetted at people who have attacked him. Consistently. The first time he ever voiced any suspision of you was directly after you attacked him. For me, that capped of a trend and it reached a voting point.

As for me asking the "who do you think is scum?" question, that is the standard question that I ask of people who I think are not contributing to the game. Yes, I guess it is extremely generic, but that's sorta the point.

As far as me confirming scum, I agree, I did it too quickly.

In response to me knowing the size of the scumteam: I generally operate under the assumption of a three-scum team in mini games of 12-13 players.

Okay, so I've done a little bit of recalibrating, and mike really isn't confirmed town. The safest person to claim a tracking result on would be a scumbuddy, so I can't yet rule that out.

Honestly, I'm about 90% sure that our scumteam lies in one of chk and Cecily, then another one out of P.T. and mike. Right now, I'd be inclined to say Cecily and P.T., but I'm sure that will change during ISOs.

Specifically, why Cecily over Chk?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay chums, the Easter hangover is officially over. You can't have eaten

that

much candy. Now get in here and post some content!

[Bub Bidderskins]

The reason I'm voting for PT is that he has consistently only posted content targetted at people who have attacked him. Consistently. The first time he ever voiced any suspision of you was directly after you attacked him. For me, that capped of a trend and it reached a voting point.

Why did you consider PT confirmed town (other than because Nacho said so) before he attacked me ?

When did you notice this trend of PT attacking people who targetted him ?

Why did you vote Voided Day 1 (other than because others voted him) ?

Because he was the first vote on the Pine wagon. I admit, I was far too quick to confirm people. I noticed the trend when I saw PT basically OMGUSing you, and then I ISO'd him, at which point I discovered the trend.

I voted for Voided Day 1 because if I didn't want a no-lynch on D-1. The person who I thought was scummiest on that day was neil (though I turned out to be wrong on that read) there wasn't enough support for a neil lynch, and it was really close to deadline so I voted for Voided to prevent a D-1 no-lynch. He wasn't my scummiest pick, but at that time I felt like he was a better lynch than most.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Faraday: Basically, on D-1 Pappums Rat (who was later replaced by nacho) pulled a gambit by claiming he was a one-shot sane day-cop and he just got a guilty verdict on VoidedMafia. Many people voted for voided because of this, but when Pappums revealed that he lied, a bumch of people got on his wagon simply because of Lynch All Liars (havingfitz was the main proponent of this). Pappums rat kind of imploded and ended up replacing out of the game. Eventually, we lynched Voided because of his questionable reaction to Pappums' fake claim right before deadline. Voided flipped town after Pine quickly hammered him.

The next day Pine caught some flak for his hammer and some other reactions he made. Also, Transocelot claimed one-shot vig. Pine got lynched and flipped scum, and Transocelot and Neil were killed that night and both flipped town. Cec and Chk were off the wagon and did not produce much content, so they came under fire after the Pine lynch and were the top two suspects coming into today. PT (whom you replaced) was the first one to vote on Pine, but throughout the entire game he had not produced content except against players who attacked him. I voted for him for this reason.

And that pretty much brings you up to speed on how the first two days went.

[Bub Bidderskins]

PT (whom you replaced) was the first one to vote on Pine,

Actually he (PT) was 3rd to vote Pine.

Sorry, you're right. Pine was the first vote on the end-of-day vote count, which is what I checked.

Is this a common trait for you then ... do you generally speaking give 3 quarters of the players a 'confirmed town' status ? Why do you regard Fitz as confirmed town (again other than because Nacho said so) ?

No, and it was a mistake on my part to do so because PT came out and proved that he was absolutly not confirmed town. As far as fitz, he's no longer "confirmed" town in my book (again, it was a mistake for me to do that) but I do have a town read on him for reasons already stated.

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote

Faraday has really picked up where PT failed. He's posted a lot of pro-town content.

Also, Cecily and Chk are of different alignments. At the start of the day when they were the top two suspects, Cec instantly went after Chk, the other top wagon. Also, with his first content post of the day (using a very loose definition of the word "content") Chk came out and voted for Cecily.

Vote: Chkflip

^L-1^

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm L-1, actually. Satael switched wagons.

So you can go about giving your Cecily case now...

Nacho, I seriously doubt that Satael is scum. In her first post of the game she immediately voted for Pine, and she was instrumental in getting him lynched.

Why is fitz scum, Nacho?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Right now I'm okay with a Chk or Cecily lynch. Unless nacho can put together a really convincing case on Fitz in the next few hours, my vote is going to be on one of those two.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm a vanilla townie. That leaves only Sateal left to claim.

I can confirm that MikeMike neighbourized me. Last night I asked him about his role and he said exactly the same thing he said today: that it was one-shot and that he tried to target Jahudo before. It doesn't make any sense at all for him to lie about this piece of information.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Faraday is telling the truth. From the claims given, if he's lying then this setup is hilariously scum-favored.

I've done some thinking, and right now I'm pretty confidant that MikeMike is scum.

Back on D-2 when Pine fake-claimed tracker, he said that he tracked MikeMike and got nothing. However, if he was an actual tracker and tracked MikeMike on N-1 he

would

have found that MikeMike targetted Jahudo, assuming that MikeMike's telling the truth. However, he said that he got

nothing

. After that declaration was made, MikeMike had this to say:

Ok, I've been thinking about doing this for a while and I think it's a good decision because right now the alternative seems to be just lynching Pine then starting on tomorrow after someone else is nightkilled. I think that giving town a real incentive to use the full length of the day to discuss should give us more of a chance to draw out scum responses and that this will do that.

I am a One-shot vigilante. I am willing to shoot whoever the town thinks is the most scummy besides Pine by a democratic choice in night 2.
If you want me to count you as voting for someone to be shot tonight, put NightVote:playername in the last line of any post in normal text (unvotes likewise).
The decision will be made if any player has a)more than 50% of the votes, or b) significantly more votes than their nearest contender.

Given a Pine lynch seems pretty much a sure thing following his voided hammer and subsequent abandonment of the thread, this should give us a reason to extend the day as long as possible.

Well the problem with that is that scum may be able to intefere with your kill, not a good idea to discuss who you are planning to target (if you aren't telling fibs that is). Us naming names isn't the way to go ... use the info available to make your own mind up. This doesn't clear TO completely as scum could themselves have an extra kill one night but TO seems pretty risk averse to me - the way the game's gone so far, I don't see her fake claiming this.

Pine is obviously going to be the lynch for today ... was probably still trying to fabricate his story when he was rushed into revealing it before he was ready (he hadn't got to the bit about who he was going to track yet it seems).

Nontheless plenty of time no rush, we can wait a bit for his second and third posts before rushing anything.

And that was it for the day. If MikeMike was telling the truth, why didn't he claim right then and there? It isn't like neighborizer is a powerfull role that would be a huge loss to the town. Furthermore, here's Pine's self-hammer:

Yeah, there really isn't. I fucked up royally, and there's absolutely no way I'm going to talk my way out of this, and I'd rather deny you the rest of the discussion time.

VOTE: VOTE: Pine

Apologies to my scum partners.

I think Pine just realized that he implicated his scum-bud in his tracker claim and didn't want the truth to come out.

vote: MikeMike

That leaves the setup as:

One-shot vig
One-shot gunsmith
Town one-shot neighborizer

And 2.5-3 scum with a neighborizer. However, given what Rhinox said, Havingfitz may not be cleared by the gunsmith if he is the traitor, since traitors can't kill unless they are recruited by the scum team.

[Bub Bidderskins]

In response to Setael:

I voted Neil because I viewed him as the scummiest player at that time. I also viewed Pine as scummy, but not as much. I asked Neil what he thought about the Pine wagon because I wanted to get his reaction to it because at that moment I was thinking of a Pine/Neil scum team.

[Bub Bidderskins]

But then why didn't you counter-claim when Voided claimed? This is what you had to say on the subject:

Not buying the Voided wagon yet. Maybe WIFOM but I don't see a scum with a guilty claiming Neighbour/izer. If he was scum, he would probs assume the claim was legit - if he was going to fake claim why fake claim a relatively minor role as opposed to a Doc or Normal Cop to try and draw them out. After all, without Rat's revelation Voided would have been lynched fairly quickly.

Why didn't you? The answer is simple: because you knew that Voided was town. You knew that if you counter-claimed, and voided was lynched, then the suspision would fall onto you. A townie would instantly jump onto somebody who claimed their exact same role, but you backed off and distanced yourself from that very wagon.

CONFIRM VOTE: MIKEMIKE

[Bub Bidderskins]

As far as him not getting a tracker result when you targetted him, I doubt that's true. It is my understanding that if an information role is tracked and targets the player who dies that night, then the tracker would recieve the result.

[Bub Bidderskins]

But then why didn't you counter-claim when Voided claimed? This is what you had to say on the subject:

Not buying the Voided wagon yet. Maybe WIFOM but I don't see a scum with a guilty claiming Neighbour/izer. If he was scum, he would probs assume the claim was legit - if he was going to fake claim why fake claim a relatively minor role as opposed to a Doc or Normal Cop to try and draw them out. After all, without Rat's revelation Voided would have been lynched fairly quickly.

Why didn't you? The answer is simple: because you knew that Voided was town. You knew that if you counter-claimed, and voided was lynched, then the suspision would fall onto you. A townie would instantly jump onto somebody who claimed their exact same role, but you backed off and distanced yourself from that very wagon.

CONFIRM VOTE: MIKEMIKE

Lol ...

You are getting desperate now aren't you ? Why would I counter-claim it wouldn't confirm anything one way or another all it would do would be to provide free information to the bad guys (if they knew I was neighbourizer then they knew I wasn't anything more important).

If I counter-claimed it would be because I thought scum had lied about the role - I didn't think that, given the co-incidence, I was pretty confident Voided hadn't just made the role up, believed his claim and therefore thought he was probably town. I wanted to defend his claim (when people were trying to lynch him just for mixing up neighbour/izer) and deter a wagon on him without actually claiming myself and giving the info away.

Again to claim that my response is scum motivated is just illogical.

If you were town, then that would not have been your thought process. Catching scum would be well worth giving up such trivial information as the fact that you are a neighborizer. The counter-claim would have made it evident that Voided was lying and he would have been lynched for sure. However, you knew that Voided would flip town and so you didn't want to counter-claim because then you would come under fire for it the next day.

The scumteam is Cec/MikeMike, but Mike is confirmed scum at this point.

[Bub Bidderskins]

But then why didn't you counter-claim when Voided claimed? This is what you had to say on the subject:

Not buying the Voided wagon yet. Maybe WIFOM but I don't see a scum with a guilty claiming Neighbour/izer. If he was scum, he would probs assume the claim was legit - if he was going to fake claim why fake claim a relatively minor role as opposed to a Doc or Normal Cop to try and draw them out. After all, without Rat's revelation Voided would have been lynched fairly quickly.

Why didn't you? The answer is simple: because you knew that Voided was town. You knew that if you counter-claimed, and voided was lynched, then the suspision would fall onto you. A townie would instantly jump onto somebody who claimed their exact same role, but you backed off and distanced yourself from that very wagon.

CONFIRM VOTE: MIKEMIKE

Lol ...

You are getting desperate now aren't you ? Why would I counter-claim it wouldn't confirm anything one way or another all it would do would be to provide free information to the bad guys (if they knew I was neighbourizer then they knew I wasn't anything more important).

If I counter-claimed it would be because I thought scum had lied about the role - I didn't think that, given the co-incidence, I was pretty confident Voided hadn't just made the role up, believed his claim and therefore thought he was probably town. I wanted to defend his claim (when people were trying to lynch him just for mixing up neighbour/izer) and deter a wagon on him without actually claiming myself and giving the info away.

Again to claim that my response is scum motivated is just illogical.

If you were town, then that would not have been your thought process. Catching scum would be well worth giving up such trivial information as the fact that you are a neighborizer. The counter-claim would have made it evident that Voided was lying and he would have been lynched for sure. However, you knew that Voided would flip town and so you didn't want to counter-claim because then you would come under fire for it the next day.

The scumteam is Cec/MikeMike, but Mike is confirmed scum at this point.

How would a counter-claim have made it evident that Voided was lying then ? Given its essentially a vanilla role, the odds on 2 town Neighbourizers are about the same as the odds on 1 on each side I'd have thought. All my role proved was that its unlikely Voided entirely fake claimed - sure it was possible he could be mafia neighbourizer but it was unlikely he'd just made up the role - too much of a co-incidence. In fact it did cross my mind, we could even end up with half the players as neighbourizers or something like that.

You have known I was a neighbourizer since the beginning of Day 3, you have known Voided claimed Neighbourizer since Day 1 and you have known Pine claimed tracker since day 2. Its pretty certain that since being neighboured, you would have ISOd me to prepare for night but never once mentioned me as suspicious in fact wasn't I on your list of cleared town players despite the above which you apparently have now decided for some reason makes me scum. Then again you do like changing your reasons on who is scum for pretty much nothing don't you? Wasn't it PT you classed as confirmed town but then immediately switched to your number 1 target on the grounds he attacked me. Guess you didn't think I was scummy then did you despite knowing the above?

You've managed to skirt around the entire game being as inconspicious as possible, sheeping where possible and generally doing your best to seem as uncontraversial as possible To be honest, you'd have been better off sticking to that game plan, if this is the best you can come up with in terms of putting together a fake case.

You are the confirmed scum I'm afraid. Cec may or may not be your buddy (if you have one) but you need to be lynched today.

Counter claiming would make it evident that Voided was lying. It is quite rare for there to be two neighborizers in the same game. Your hesitance to do so reads as scummy to me.

Also, the timing of when I brought these arguments up is irrelavent to their legitimacy.

If you were town, then that would not have been your thought process. Catching scum would be well worth giving up such trivial information as the fact that you are a neighborizer. The counter-claim would have made it evident that Voided was lying and he would have been lynched for sure. However, you knew that Voided would flip town and so you didn't want to counter-claim because then you would come under fire for it the next day.

The scumteam is Cec/MikeMike, but Mike is confirmed scum at this point.

Why would mikemike assume he was catching Void in a lie? If mikemike was/is town...he wouldn't be sure of Void's alignment and he would probably feel the claim (not the alignment) was legitimate. If he had counter claimed as you mention Void probably would have been more assured of being lynched than he already was. I'm not saying mikemike is town but your continued push on him seems very contrived and based on a lot of imagination.

Also,

As far as him not getting a tracker result when you targetted him, I doubt that's true.

Bub...what are you talking about here? What result are you talking about from when who targetted who? You aren't referring to Pine's fake tracker claim and the result he said he got on mikemike are you?

And how does mikemike's actions around the time Void claimed make him scummy? You say he should have immediately counter claimed. How many times have any of us ever seen a 1-shot Neighborizor in a game? If I had got that role PM I would have been like...whuh? And to have that role and see another player claim the exact same role had to make a player really wonder what was going on. I would have taken the claim as truthful (whether I was a scum or town neighborizor). How would mikemike KNOW that Void was town? Based on Void's claim or based on the fact you think he [mikemike] is scum? When you were neighborized by mikemike did any of the QT conversation revolve around the fact that there we two 1-shot neighborizors in the game?

...you knew that Voided was town. You knew that if you counter-claimed, and voided was lynched, then the suspision would fall onto you. A townie would instantly jump onto somebody who claimed their exact same role, but you backed off and distanced yourself from that very wagon.

I'm not sure mikemike ever backed off Void...I don't recall him ever being ON Void to begin with. What would mikemike coming out and claiming 1-shot neighborizor in response to Void's claim have accomplished? It would have either sealed Void's fate (which wasn't necessary) or just confused people's views towards mikemike (whether he was town or scum). If I was scum and had a 1-shot neighborizor role I'm not sure if I would have ever even botherd to use it after Void's claim. I think I would have avoided using it and if the need to claim came up later in the game...either claim VT or some other PR fakeclaim that did not mirror Voids's.

tl:dr; I'm not sure mikemike's actions are as unreasonable as you have portrayed them to be Bub.

Who are your #2 and #3 suspects Bub?

Sorry I didn't comment on this earlier when I was on, but I didn't have the time at that point to make a good, well thought out post do to RL concerns.

Your defense of MikeMike is noted, but I don't see why a townsperson would not counter-claim at that point, and none of the discussion in the QT revolved around that fact at all. Furthermore, you are suggesting that you not use the Neighborizer claim then to catch what a pro-town person would view as scum in order to perserve a fakeclaim for later in the game. That is simply anti-town and exactly what scum would think. And the question isn't about what would have occured if he had counter-claimed, the question is: why didn't he? To this point, the only reasonable answer that I can come up with is: because he's scum.

FYI: My number two and three suspects are you and Cecily. You may still be a traitor despite the gunsmith investigation, and your shameless defense of MikeMike is noted.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Counter claiming would make it evident that Voided was lying. It is quite rare for there to be two neighborizers in the same game. Your hesitance to do so reads as scummy to me.

If mikemike was town....how would he know Void was lying? And this:

And how does mikemike's actions around the time Void claimed make him scummy? You say he should have immediately counter claimed. How many times have any of us ever seen a 1-shot Neighborizor in a game? If I had got that role PM I would have been like...whuh? And to have that role and see another player claim the exact same role had to make a player really wonder what was going on. I would have taken the claim as truthful (whether I was a scum or town neighborizor). How would mikemike KNOW that Void was town? Based on Void's claim or based on the fact you think he [mikemike] is scum?

Your defense of MikeMike is noted, but I don't see why a townsperson would not counter-claim at that point, and none of the discussion in the QT revolved around that fact at all. Furthermore, you are suggesting that you not use the Neighborizer claim then to catch what a pro-town person would view as scum in order to perserve a fakeclaim for later in the game. That is simply anti-town and exactly what scum would think. And the question isn't about what would have occured if he had counter-claimed, the question is: why didn't he? To this point, the only reasonable answer that I can come up with is: because he's scum.

FYI: My number two and three suspects are you and Cecily. You may still be a traitor despite the gunsmith investigation, and your shameless defense of MikeMike is noted.

Why is it taking you until now to suspect mikemike? Why did you not express suspicions in the QT or voice/share suspicions when D3 started? Instead...you spend the day targetting chkflp (town) and PT/Faraday (who I don't see anyone doubting as town) AND you agree with Nacho that mikemike is town. If mikemike's actions surrounding his silence when Void claimed are so suspicious to you now...why weren't they brought up in the QT or when D3 began?

You also state that Cecily and chkflp (town) are not the same alignment.

Again, the fact that I did not bring up that argument sooner in no way makes the argument less legitimate. It was only after I decided to to re-think through this game during MYLO that I came across that argument. If I had thought of it sooner, I would have brought it up sooner. When I saw that, I was instant convinced that MikeMike was scum, hence me voting for him.

Plus I still have not seen a response to this:

As far as him not getting a tracker result when you targetted him, I doubt that's true.

Bub...what are you talking about here? What result are you talking about from when who targetted who? You aren't referring to Pine's fake tracker claim and the result he said he got on mikemike are you?

Sorry for not answering that. Man, I really botched those pro-nouns, didn't I? I meant was that I highly doubt that a tracker would not get a result on MikeMike. Basically, I think that a tracker would have gotten a result and MikeMike is BSing.

And finally...despite stating your assumption that there are three scum in this game, you are now content to modify Faraday's result on me by calling me a traitor and bumping Cecily (who has been high on your list for much of yesterday and who you should find scum based on chkflp flipping town) down below me.

I didn't modify his results at all, you could still be a traitor. However, from my understanding of the traitor role, if we lynch all the scum (MikeMike) then the game's over and we win. If we lynch scum today and the game continues, then you're cleared. So you don't have to be worried about being lynched at all.

"Noting" my defense of mikemike is amusing. I'm not defending mikemike..I'm pointing out areas of your case on him that I do not find valid. If you could have made a good point on him I would not have had an issue with it.

That amounts to defending him, regardless of how you try to paint it.

tl:dr;

Bub really comes across as scum the more I look at his recent posts and his push on mikemike today for suspicions that would have been just as valid yesterday if they had been voiced makes me believe he is scum just pushing for another mislynch. If more people suspect Bub than Cecily I would switch. I view them as equally scummy at this point.

Yes, and they are also just as valid today as they would have been yesterday. The timing is irrelavent: MikeMike is scum.

@Faraday: How many accounts do you have?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I picked Bub to try and get some information on him and figure out a read. With that in mind, its time to have a little look at what he said in the QT, to see if there's anything else in there to confirm his scum spot.

Hmm... so his main scum suspects are Fitz, Satael and Cec.

He explained his Fitz suspicion in some detail, coming up with a case based on voting analysis. Not sure why he had never brought this up before (is stating a full case in a QT and never bringing it up in the main thread standard practice, seems a bit weird to me?).

Satael is an interesting one. I suppose its fairly logical in that he (Bub) has had everyone as his top suspect at some time but other than that. Care to explain why you suspected him then Bud ? Do you really think that Sat attacking Fitz meant that Sat was scum ?

Cec ... he probably had to mention her I guess given that was probably considering her a possible mislynch target.

So who wasn't one of Bub's suspects then ? Well me obviously and Bub himself of course. Plus Nacho but then again if Bub isn't a traitor then hes knows Nacho was to be Night Killed so no surprise there. Other one was Faraday. Interesting that one. That'll be Faraday (PT) who was confirmed town by Bub then confirmed scum by Bub when he voted him now he's back to confirmed town again. All in the space of Day 3.

Five stars for misrepping me completely. Obviously the combination of Faraday's claim and me discovering your obv scum behaviour earier in the game have altered my reads somewhat. I never said that PT was confirmed scum. I jumped the gun in saying he was "confirmed town" the first time, but this time around I seriously doubt that Faraday/PT is scum given the claims.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub...are you or are you not suspicious of mikemike for the sole reason of his claim and how he acted D1 following Void's 1-shot neighborizor claim?

Assuming that to be the "obv scum behaviour earier in the game"...how could it be that you only realized it here on D4? To the extent that you say

"When I saw that, I was instant convinced that MikeMike was scum,"

. How could it only dawn on you now when you were aware of Void's claim, you know he was lynched D1, and on N2 you happen to get (I assume) a PM from the mod stating you have been neigbored by mikemike and you then proceed to have discussions with him in a QT.

sO YOU'RE IN A qt WITH MIKEMIKE AND YOU AREN'T EVEN THINKING (PARDON THE caps) that it odd there is another 1-shot in the game. You don't mention it in the QT and you don't bring it up at all on D3. Instead you focus on trying to lynch (as we now know and/or assume) town. You suspected Cecily before your sudden realization there was another neighborizor. Why not now?

I think this is all a valid line of questioning and hypoithesizing as you are doing in your case against mikemike.

Would the arguments have been any more valid if they were brought up back then rather than now? I brought it up when I thought of it. If I had thought of it earlier I would have brought it up earier. It was only after I decided to re-examine the game after MYLO commenced that I stubbled across it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Lol at "stubbled", should read "stumbled".

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub do you actually have any case on we whatsoever apart from my role ? Here's some other things for you to think about if you actually think this constitutes a case ..

1. Given that I had seen Voided's role D1, why do you think I use my neighbouring when if I was scum, it could according to Bub logic incriminate me. How could it possibly help me as scum ?

2. Given I had seen Pine's claim D2 and I knew that I attempted to do something Night 1, why do you think I used my neighbouring when if I was scum, it could according to Bub logic incriminate me. How could it possibly help me as scum ?

3. Why do you think I was so (probably unreasonably to be fair) aggressive towards Rhino to get him to answer the question re would the tracker pick me up. According to Bub logic Rhino would answer it would pick me up ?

And here are some more questions. What did you think when you got messaged that you had been neighboured by me ? What did you do to make use of this information did you do any reading up on me ? - at the time did you even consider the Voided/Pine stuff and think it was OK or did it not even cross your mind ? I appreciate that you scum so probably figured there were easier targets to frame but you know you could have at least tried to make out you were thinking like town.

1. Fail-y WIFOM argument. You could use it to try and convinced people that you were town during the night. You could use it, then when you come under fire for some reason, give that exact same argument that you gave to try and "clear" you. There are more reasons that you could think of.

2. Same as #1

3. I don't know anything about you being aggressive towards Rhino. What I do know is that Rhino probably wasn't prepared to answer that question because he didn't put a tracker in the game, so his opinion is actually kind of irrelavent.

I thought it was interesting that you neighbored me but I focused my attention to the day game. I decided to re-read and re-think the game when it entered MYLO.

1. Why you suspected Satael ?
2. Why you wanted to claim I had been neighboured ?

1. I suspected Satael before Faraday claimed and before the MYLO mass claim and before I found your scumslips.
2. Because it would be MYLO and everything needed to come out. A better question is this: why didn't you want to reveal that?

Mike, what do you think of a Cecily lynch?

@Cecily: what do you think of MikeMike?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I suspected Satael before Faraday claimed and before the MYLO mass claim and before I found your scumslips.

Can you point out where you stated suspicion of me? All I remember is you saying I was on your town list for my Pine post.

I think I only theorized about it in the quick-topic, so you wouldn't have seen it.

Before anybody hammers, I want to hear what Cecily has to say when she comes back.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Like I said before, my reads have been drastically changed today by the combination of the claims given and me discovering MikeMike's slip.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Screw it.

Unvote; vote: Cecily

I wanted to see what Cecily had to say first, but she's obviously trying to lurk her way out of a lynch.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Nice play Faraday. I never would have guess that you were fake-claiming.