Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[Jase]

Ok so I'm thinking yabas "Please don't lynch me" bit was an intentional deception and this means he's almost certainly scum.

BUT I'm going to ignore what I just said and vote stefan for no adequately explained reason.

Vote: StefanB

[Jase]

Imaginality: Oh sorry should I be voting Yabba?

I'll set this right with a quick

Unvote
vote: Yabba

I'm so glad you're watching out for me!

[Jase]

Jase, please respond to my "what the fuck" reaction please. Your play is going deeper into said WTF levels.

So you're trying to discredit me by saying my play is illogical. Is that it?

[Jase]

I think we should completely ignore the fact that uncle pains only activity is to ask a not at all relevant question. I'm a good player.

[Jase]

Unvote
Vote: Uncle Pain

Obvious omgus and vote hopping on top of it all, godamn, this is almost too easy.

Seriously though...do you actually have a reason for voting me or am I just getting on your nerves?

You also misrepresent what I said about you. I don't mind you asking questions that aren't game relevant, but that's the only thing you did. ANYTHING relevant to the game with that post and there wouldn't have been a problem. Hell, even the lack of contribution wasn't a huge deal, but now you're all "You think I should contribute?! VOTE". That strikes me as more than a little...touchy I guess. Also of interest. You accuse me of throwing around random accusations, but the only two I've accused of anything include you and yabba.

SC: Realize that "WTF" is not a real question. Or at least not one that deserves a response.

Zed: Isn't my reasoning on yabba clear?

Anyways this may or may not be my last post today. Easter and whatnot.

[Jase]

WTF is, to my mind, a request to justify your actions. Honestly, it was 2 am when I wrote that and I had just barely skimmed. I recognize and accept your point completely.

Wait, this sounds sarcastic in my head, but it's so obvious that I'm right that it's hard to believe that this is the case.

WC: Clarify that post.

Fos: Crazypianist

For stealing my shtick.

[Jase]

EBWOP: Also Pianist I could not possibly have sheeped imaginalitys vote for yabba. No such vote has ever existed.

[Jase]

No, I honestly agree. No sarcasm at all. I tend to plainly state when I realize my point was silly or wrong and take agree with a person.

You're killing me here. Whatever I'm gonna take you at face value.

[Jase]

Me=Weird. You are confusing me here. Only scum would want people to believe they are sincere. So...your list of scum suspects. Those are actualy your town reads. And every discussion and scum hunt should be read in complete reverese. That is g enuinely a stupid thing to say. When I say "Okay, you're right, your argument has swayed me" I actually mean that, and wanting you to read that as sincerity is not, spoiler alert, scummy. I also dislike being thrown on your scum-team list when all I've done is tell people that I don't generally resort to a good deal of sarcasm(above post being an exception.

Basically, what I'm asking is, if scum are the only ones who would want people to think they're being sincere, how is this game supposed to progress? I want some clarification on "Wanting people to take you at face value is something scum would want." or I'm going to start finding it an opportunistic reach.

QFT

L/Weird: Did you two even pay the slightest bit of attention to the context of that exchange? Good grief. Here's a quick summary of how that went down.

SC: Makes an point against me.
Jase: Responds with what amounts to "Nu-uh".
SC: Says yeah ok I see what you mean "nu-uh" indeed.
Jase: Can't tell if SC is being sarcastic or not and asks for clarification.
SC: Attempts to clarify that no sarcasm was used.
Jase: Isn't sure that this clarification is non-sarcastic but decides to just assume it's sincere.
SC: Says "Yeah it really is sincere"

You guys make it sound like SC said something retarded like "Believe me at all times !!111".

[Jase]

Andrew: You've been avoiding mentioning me in any significant way. Firstly, why have you been doing this? Secondly, gimme an opinion on me or my wagon or some fucking thing. Considering how prominent all this shit surrounding me is right now you really have no excuse to be silent about it.

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Ocelot: Same as above. All you've said about me is that I'm confusing. 1st, etc. 2nd, etc.

GroupThink: *Additional Suspicion for having an awful first post (whatever you've heard this a couple times already)* Plus same as above etc etc etc. PLUS you have not said anything about anything else either. DO SO.

[Jase]

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

Yes, I picked you alone, COMPLETELY AT RANDOM to pester for ignoring me and (by extension) the largest wagon that's happened so far. I OBVIOUSLY did this because I am scum and I (for some fucking reason) believe that if you actually say what you think about my wagon that you'll be branded as my scumbuddy and speed lynched the day after my own INEVITABLE lynch.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

Really though, I asked the same thing from everyone who hasn't commented on me or the wagon against me. There's four people in total who've been ignoring me and I somewhat doubt we're looking at that many scum in a game this size. So obviously ignoring me wasn't a huge scum tell. Of course then YOU throw out some bullshit about how I must be an idiot for calling you (not anyone else, just you) out on that or something. What's worse you THEN go on to give no information WHEN SPECIFICALLY ASKED. I'm thinking that IS a pretty substantial scumtell.
Now then, are you gonna say something about my wagon or do you still think it's some sort of nefarious trap?

Now then (sigh) post 78, L and Imaginality (I think) called SC out for telling me (when I asked if he was being sarcastic) that I should take him at face value. And while it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for that to be scummy out of that context, IN context it's a laughable thing to try and throw in someones face. Does that clear up the meaning of that post somewhat?

[Jase]

Wait, you mean me or andrew?

[Jase]

Jase

: Would you tell us why you voted StefanB and switched your vote to yabbaguy when “asked” to?

I did that to stir things up. That was the purpose of my first few posts. It's a great way to get out of that dull early phase where everyone has weak cases (at least in my experience that what it's good for). It also draws reactions of course. Though I haven't looked at the reactions very closely yet. That'll come later tonight if I feel up to it but I've been staring at my screen for about an hour and a half at THIS point in the post so we'll see about that.

Not to me. Why was his reaction-test scummy?

It wasn't really. It's the same thing I did, but somewhat more tame. It's just how I happened to start my own reaction test.

Andrew: Firstly, are you going to give an opinion on my wagon or not? Secondly, what is it you want me to respond to?

[Jase]

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Jase: My opinion on your wagon is that it rose out of nothing and sits there, being piled on, for no valid, logical reasons. I do not see a reason to place my vote there. Not only that, but my intuition was telling me you aren't it.

I don't like this bit. Intuition or no, saying that the case against me was completely illogical and invalid strikes me as odd. I made a number of pretty clear tells. What were the specific points you think were invalid, and why do you think so?

[Jase]

Very Suspicious:
Uncle Pain
Jase
Carcinogen

Jase:

Imaginality: Oh sorry should I be voting Yabba?

I'll set this right with a quick
Unvote
vote: Yabba

I'm so glad you're watching out for me!

READ: Oh sorry I'm being scummy? Let me sheep this vote so I look better in everyone's eyes without explaining my actions at all!
The Uncle Pain vote makes looks like he's just trying to get off of the yabbaguy case and attack an easy target.

Carcinogen: The Jase vote looks opportunistic. By his logic, bad players say they're good. Thus Jase saying he's a good player is neither a scumtell nor nulltell, but a bad player tell. Further he hasn't don't much in terms of content. His defense against zdenek calling him lurkish is more lack of content and trying to say zdenek has not done any scum hunting when he has.

Crazypianist accuses me of something that's extremely scummy. Then turns around and calls SCs suspicions of me opportunistic. If he really believed my that my intentions were as he said why didn't he vote for me (Why didn't you)? Also what's the difference between your suspicion and Surprise_Carcinogens?

[Jase]

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

Yes, I picked you alone, COMPLETELY AT RANDOM to pester for ignoring me and (by extension) the largest wagon that's happened so far. I OBVIOUSLY did this because I am scum and I (for some fucking reason) believe that if you actually say what you think about my wagon that you'll be branded as my scumbuddy and speed lynched the day after my own INEVITABLE lynch.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

Really though, I asked the same thing from everyone who hasn't commented on me or the wagon against me. There's four people in total who've been ignoring me and I somewhat doubt we're looking at that many scum in a game this size. So obviously ignoring me wasn't a huge scum tell. Of course then YOU throw out some bullshit about how I must be an idiot for calling you (not anyone else, just you) out on that or something. What's worse you THEN go on to give no information WHEN SPECIFICALLY ASKED. I'm thinking that IS a pretty substantial scumtell.
Now then, are you gonna say something about my wagon or do you still think it's some sort of nefarious trap?

My read of andrew is in the quoted post. When asked for his opinion he makes it out like I'm singling him out or something (I'm not too sure). He still absolutely refuses to answer me after he's been asked three times. I'm not sure if this is because he's scum or if he's just VI, but it may be relevant.

[Jase]

@Jase: #63 & #64: How was I stealing your shtick? Also, I called you on sheeping because 37 looked like you voted merely to satisfy imaginality rather than because you yourself supported the vote.

Very Suspicious:
Uncle Pain
Jase
Carcinogen

Jase:

Imaginality: Oh sorry should I be voting Yabba?

I'll set this right with a quick
Unvote
vote: Yabba

I'm so glad you're watching out for me!

READ: Oh sorry I'm being scummy? Let me sheep this vote so I look better in everyone's eyes without explaining my actions at all!
The Uncle Pain vote makes looks like he's just trying to get off of the yabbaguy case and attack an easy target.

Carcinogen: The Jase vote looks opportunistic.

By his logic, bad players say they're good. Thus Jase saying he's a good player is neither a scumtell nor nulltell, but a bad player tell.

Further he hasn't don't much in terms of content. His defense against zdenek calling him lurkish is more lack of content and trying to say zdenek has not done any scum hunting when he has.

Crazypianist accuses me of something that's extremely scummy. Then turns around and calls SCs suspicions of me opportunistic. If he really believed my that my intentions were as he said why didn't he vote for me (Why didn't you)? Also what's the difference between your suspicion and Surprise_Carcinogens?

This came out of nowhere! You've had almost 3 pages to say this yet you wait till now? Scummy. I didn't vote you because I voted Uncle Pain at the time. That much should be obvious. S_C's suspicion looked opportunistic (i.e. "Here's my chance to push a lynch of a townie"). You even quoted my reasoning for not liking the vote (bolded above).

First bit: "I think we should be passive aggressive and not explicitly say who we're suspicious of. Or not." That's where you stole my shtick. It was not a serious point. It was really just for my personal amusement, and it fit in with what I was doing. As for the bit about sheeping, I accept your explanation.

Second bit: I looked back and I saw it, that is a thing that happens. You say you didn't vote me because you voted Uncle Pain, but why would you vote him for something that could have been scum motivated when what you accused me of MUST have been scum motivated? It makes no sense for you not to vote me if you truly believe what you said. I'm calling BS on that. Moving right along, yes I saw your reasoning for accusing SC. Problem is you throw down some support for my wagon and then in the same breath you make an accusation for being on the wagon that you JUST supported. In general it seems like you don't want to be ON my wagon but you still want my wagon to succeed. You then use being on my wagon as points against two other players so you can call them out if my wagon DOES succeed, and YOU get to say "I told you there was something wrong with that wagon". Is that about right? Did I leave any part of that out?

[Jase]

I looked back and I saw it, that is a thing that happens. You say you didn't vote me because you voted Uncle Pain, but why would you vote him for something that could have been scum motivated when what you accused me of MUST have been scum motivated? It makes no sense for you not to vote me if you truly believe what you said. I'm calling BS on that.

Uncle Pain was useless up to that point and I saw him making bad moves. You on the other hand were progressing the game forward.

Moving right along, yes I saw your reasoning for accusing SC. Problem is you throw down some support for my wagon and then in the same breath you make an accusation for being on the wagon that you JUST supported. In general it seems like you don't want to be ON my wagon but you still want my wagon to succeed. You then use being on my wagon as points against two other players so you can call them out if my wagon DOES succeed, and YOU get to say "I told you there was something wrong with that wagon". Is that about right? Did I leave any part of that out?

Uncle Pain and Carcinogen voted you because you have an attitude and because (he thought) you are a bad player. Neither of which are scumtells. I however pointed out what I thought were scumtells.

AHA!...That's actually pretty reasonable. Damn, I thought I was on to something, it all fit together so well. It's reasonable to vote a less scummy, but less contributing player instead of a more scummy player who's making shit happen (In the early game specifically when we need to get the ball rolling). I can see your point about UP and SC and while it still seems odd that you'd attack them after supporting the same wagon it isn't THAT odd, and the rest of your posts have me thinking town.

Since my super cool interesting case is dead I'll throw my vote down in support of the L wagon. Just straight up making up a point, while the other one is a silly theory disagreement. Doesn't sit well. I'll look more in detail at the L wagon but it seems pretty straight forward.

Unvote
Vote: L

[Jase]

O jeah, post 124: Jase why haven't you answered the question?

Er...124 refers to my post 64. Is that the post you meant? If so what about it did you want to know?

Anyways I went back and looked at TOs iso and yeah I can see how such a small amount of content in that number of posts is scummy. I still haven't looked back at L like I said I would though (I've been kinda busy the last few days), and right at the moment doing analysis sounds pretty unappealing. I expect to still support the L wagon though considering the whole she intentionally fabricated a point in her case against SC(?). That's an intentional thing, and not one that I see being potentially town motivated. On the other hand active lurking can happen to town sometimes. I'd rather pursue the wagon that is less ambiguous about weather it's scummy or just poor town play I think. We'll see though when I do eventually look at L. Feel free to pester me mercilessly until I do actually look at L. I really should stop putting that off.

[Jase]

@unclePain: The best way to explain it is that when I'm town, I appear scummy because I keep my analyses to myself. When I'm scum I look super townie because I make an effort to look townie, to convince others that I am town.

@redtail: You took it too far, your point is too far gone to be simple. I am simple. I still suspect your player spot.

FoS: redtail

@jase: I did not fabricate my case against SC.

I said you fabricated a point, not a whole case. You did say this "Surprise_carcinogen has made posts that hint that he knows the lay of the land", and then when pressed you admit that, that wasn't true. You did that while summing up your two point case. The other point in your case was a completely pointless theory disagreement. It's pointless for a number of reasons. People who disagree with you aren't necessarily wrong, being wrong is not a scum tell in and of itself, and again the whole theory discussion was sparked by something that didn't really apply to the theory argument at all (please don't ask me to explain this a third time).

Also you never really did answer this:

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Jase: My opinion on your wagon is that it rose out of nothing and sits there, being piled on, for no valid, logical reasons. I do not see a reason to place my vote there. Not only that, but my intuition was telling me you aren't it.

I don't like this bit. Intuition or no, saying that the case against me was completely illogical and invalid strikes me as odd. I made a number of pretty clear tells.

What were the specific points you think were invalid, and why do you think so?

[Jase]

Just vote me stefan, since you believe I'm scum. Don't worry about what others think of you - when you find scum, you vote for them. Don't hesitate - that's scummy, as you've already stated. But it goes beyond that. Scum tend to show caution more than town.

That looks like scum pushing to end the day before more discussion happens. Let's wait until we're ready for the day to end before putting someone at L-1 maybe?

The lack of defense from L is pretty irritating, and anti town as well. What gives?

[Jase]

Oh really, jase? I'm scum for telling Stefan to put his money where his mouth is? To vote ME?

Your logic is erroneous, lol. I'm scum because I'm pushing my own lynch?

I have been defending myself, jase. Where do you see a 'lack'? Pose the issues I have not defended against. No one has brought legitate things to the table vs me.

First bit: You're scum for a number of good reasons that have already been said. You pushing stefan to put you at L-1 looks exactly scum giving up and looking to get into self hammer range. Anyways who needs a vote when you give a nice placeholder like "I'm not voting because I don't want to put you at L-1"?

Second bit: So you ARE pushing for your own lynch? That's sure not a thing town would do. Seriously NOBODY put her at L-1 unless discussion is stagnating. Right now we've got TO doing a thing and prox to hear from so especially not now.

Third bit: You haven't adequately defended against the point about how you made up a point in your SC case. At first you say "I did it for a reaction" and then later you say "I didn't fabricate my case". You also haven't responded to why your theory disagreement is a valid point towards anything ever at all in any way. That's just stuff that I said. I encourage others to jump in with their own points that are undefended if they exist.

[Jase]

Unvote

[Jase]

Oh...I miscounted the votes. I'm pretty amazing like that.

[Jase]

This is a placeholder for the post I was writing. I've suddenly been called away.

[Jase]

I am not giving up - nor am I pushing for my own lynch.

Rather, I was telling stefan to put his money where his mouth is and not just point fingers. His past few posts have cast suspicion on me without acting. I spelled my intentions out - how did you misinterpret them? That was my point about your ill use of logic.

I was being honest when I said I was testing surprise carcinogen. I did not fabricate my case. I've never once contradicted myself, yet you're making it look like I did, to the casual reader who isn't actually reading what you're writing.

Sorry, I didn't understand your use of english in this sentence: "You also haven't responded to why your theory disagreement is a valid point towards anything ever at all in any way." Please clarify?

I agree, others should also point out if I have not addressed any issues - but because you were the one to claim that I have not covered all issues, I expect you to fully support your statement.

First bit: Ok vote tomfoolery aside...One of the main points in the case against you has been general low content lurkyness, which hasn't changed so far. Sort of gives the impression that you aren't trying. As for the second part of the first bit, yeah, I see that now <.<

Second bit: Not quite sure what you mean when you say you spelled your intentions out.

Third bit: I have a difficult time believing that was honest. So I'll ask you, what sort of reaction where you expecting, and what did the reaction you got tell you? Anyways, your "case" consisted of at most two points if I'm reading it right, and one of those was later revealed to be a "test". Also, are you accusing me of intentionally misrepresenting you?

Fourth bit: I was talking about the other point in your case, the one that wasn't made up. It based on an argument about weather or not a townie would be concerned with being taken seriously (or something like that). I said this about it "

The other point in your case was a completely pointless theory disagreement. It's pointless for a number of reasons. People who disagree with you aren't necessarily wrong, being wrong is not a scum tell in and of itself, and again the whole theory discussion was sparked by something that didn't really apply to the theory argument at all (please don't ask me to explain this a third time).

I suppose the most straight forward way to put this is to say that it looks like you were trying to create a wagon out of nothingness (and as had been said the one you did this too was under suspicion at the time which seems opportunistic).

Fifth bit: You also still have not said

What Points of the Case Against Me Were Invalid and Why

. You keep saying the same sort of thing when asked. I'm asking for specifics here. I'm not looking for more "None of it made any sense" I want to know what didn't make sense.

[Jase]

Thread stalled. I've read it but I'm not really sold on anyone being scummish yet so...

Unvote

Now, can I get tarson, zdenek, crazypianist, and uncle pain in their own words in the shortest paragraph possible why they think [L] is scum.

Can I also get yabba, redtail, [L], and prox in their own words in the shortest paragraph possible why they think tarsonisocelot is scum.

Consider yourselves as trying to win over my vote. Failure to comply will be seen as you sheeping to the wagon that you're on.

I also want M=W, DH, Imagin, and Jase to tell me why they've decided to stay off the big wagons, why they've chosen to instead vote who they've voted for, and in Jase's case I want to know why he's chosen not to vote at this time. Failure to comply will be seen as you're just safe voting.

In what way have I been staying off the big wagons? Who did I vote for instead? As for why I'm not currently voting go read page ten. If you still have a question after that then ask away.

L: You're beginning to show a pattern of using accusations of intentional misrepresentation as a defense. You say "Oh I didn't mean that, you're choosing to misrep me". If that's what you think is happening why not pursue a case because that's obviously scum motivated isn't it?

[Jase]

In what way have I been staying off the big wagons? Who did I vote for instead?

Not Voting counts as a wagon itself. (Mastin rules) However, your poist on page 10 does make sense in a way. However, if you think someone is scum, why wait before hammering him? What else did you expect to arise from the situation?

We've got things happening. Replacements catching up, TOs reread analysis. The biggest thing is I don't want the day to end without our replacements being well integrated into the game. I want as much from them as I can get so I can make a nice informed read. It's inaccurate to say that I've been staying off the big wagons, I just am currently off one of the big wagons. Really though vote or no I think it's clear that I still support the wagon, and am sort of "unofficially" on it if that makes sense.

While I'm thinking of it...the IIoA point against TO isn't really that strong at this point. Going through page by page the way she is it makes sense that the early stuff wouldn't draw much analysis because for one early cases tend to be weak, and two hindsight is a thing. Example: Player X seems scummy in the beginning but you know that later they shape up and become more townish, looking back it'd be silly to call them out for what has already been resolved. That sort of thing. If she continues to make analysis light posts then I can see a very strong IIoA point against her. That's another fantastic reason to not end the day yet.

[Jase]

EBWOP:

I forgot to say this...

L: "No" what?

[Jase]

Jase: "If that's what you think is happening why not pursue a case because that's obviously scum motivated isn't it?"

To that. Did you already forget the only question you asked prior to my answer? Or are you just questioning to be seen questioning?

So is that "No I don't think that's what's happening" or "No I don't think it's scum motivated?" or Both?

Also what are your reads of the people on your wagon?

[Jase]

I hammered cuz I thoughts he was scum. Figuring out if he is or not will give the replacements more to work with,

gives us more to work with

, and from L's last words before the hammer he stated that TO's words make him think SK.

Except for information about the replacements. I JUST said that! Man alive...

[Jase]

EBWOP: We would have found out eventually anyways.

[Jase]

Ok well. C-worl. That was pretty awful, and I think very likely scum motivated. Gonna quick rundown some of the reasons why.There's the stuff that had been said such as all the great reasons to NOT END THE FRIGGING DAY that I said, which he ignored. That's not why I'm here however. I think in this case it's more likely a scum action than your average bad hammer. This is for two reasons. One, he did exactly what I had accused L of trying to do, which may also have been what put the idea in his head in the first place. Two, I had been shouting about how anti town it would be to end the day and he went and did the opposite thing a townie should have done. That's really the clincher. That above all the other points against him suggests that his actions were scum motivated rather than a bumbling town screw up.

HoS: Cworl

That's a place holder. Let's not put him at L-1 until we're ready to end the day yeah? For real this time!

[Jase]

Also Yabbas apparent attempt to de-rail the cworl wagon is putting a bad taste in my mouth. Pretty suspicious if you ask me.

[Jase]

You're quoting where I admit that the hammer was bad. You're arguing a point that I'm not arguing against. So, is Jase. However I AM TOWN. Lynching me won't help town out.

I'm arguing the point that your hammer was very likely scum motivated. I'm going to jump right past the sarcastic "So you you're 'not arguing against' that point eh?" You obviously aren't but you need to address THAT and stop trying to lump my accusation in with the "That was a really, REALLY bad hammer" aspect of the case against you.

Also, telling us that you're town and saying how much we'll regret it if we lynch you is not a defense. You can't honestly expect to sway anyone by saying that so just leave it out in the future and we can all just do what we were going to do anyways and make our own judgement.

Even more also-er than that, what do you mean yabba isn't trying to derail your wagon? He essentially says "I know what c-worl did was scummy and everything but hey I have an idea! Let's all focus on someone else!" With little explanation of why the TO wagon is better than the YOU wagon.

[Jase]

Doesn't want a quick lynch. Wants to keep discussion going. You said you didn't want me quicklynched yet besides misrepping Yabba, all you've done is argue my case.

Also, you made your point on why you think it's scum motivated. I said I'm town (which contradicts your statement) I can't argue more than that bc you're trying to guess my intent and failing horribly.

The bold:

What is this supposed to mean? I can almost hear an accusation in there somewhere but it's very faint...maybe I misheard? If it IS an accusation state it nice and clear. If it is NOT an accusation then what was your purpose in saying it?

The plain: "I'm town" is not a defense against any point (at least any point that isn't stupid). Maybe you've got nothing to say to convince us that you didn't intentionally end the day before our replacements caught up, and that's fine, but ALSO not a defense is misrepresenting those accusations so that you can defend them with the "I made a mistake" defense.

[Jase]

My intent behind the hammer was that I thought he was scum. I didn't want scum to use the stall in order to draw townies off the wagon. Obviously, he was town and I was wrong. I already stated all of that so the only other defense I can give is that I am town.

The first two sentences of the bolded are from me pointing out that your argument on Yabba is a misrep.

The second is an argument against you stating that besides saying you don't want to quicklynch besides misrepping someone else all you've done is talk about me. If you wish to gain more out of today why don't you target other players that are not me since the wagon on me apparently isn't going anywhere.

Bold:

Why in the world would you want to deprive town of that kind of connection?! The suspicion of L wasn't going away. Ever. Even if she had been scum and scum led another wagon for yesterday that would have been great. We could have potentially used that to catch two for one, but I doubt any wagon would have been stronger. That's all moot of course, she flipped town. "I'm town" Is still never a defense.

Italics:

In what way do those two sentences relate to yabbaguy?

Underlined:

We're, what, two pages into the day? And all I've done is talk about you? What a fool I've been! Now I see the error of my ways. You're right though. I should stop pushing you for information so that I can get more information out of the day. Thank you so much for setting me back on the right path. THAT is really just a slightly wordier version of "Don't pay attention to me! Go do something else!". This is getting insulting. In what way is your wagon not getting us "more out of today"?

[Jase]

Well simply, and you're going to love this, because I'm town. Those first two sentences are what Yabba was doing and they are what you were ignoring in the middle of your misrep. It's only a connection if he gets lynched. When I say use the stall I mean derail the wagon and get someone else lynched. If I remember correctly TO had some votes on him too. If [L] had been scum like I thought he was then waiting could've caused the wagon to die and a townie would've gotten lynch. You can push me for information all you want but I don't have any information I can give you. I'm just saying if you really wanted to catch scum it might help if you look elsewhere because, here it comes again, for those of you with the benefit of flash photography, I'm town.

Whatever man, you can keep saying it if you want. Maybe it'll even sway someone if you say it enough. When did yabba actually say he wanted to stretch the day out/avoid a quick lynch/whatever? Do you expect there's actually any danger of a quicklynch?

I know what you meant when you said "stall the wagon". If scum had tried to derail the L wagon (and L had been scum) we could have seen the connection. Day one usually ends with a town lynch anyways I'd gladly sacrifice a scummy town player for the chance at catching a scum connection. Preventing that was not a valid reason to hammer.

I am going to keep pushing you for information (thanks for the permission) because I think there's a good chance that you're scum, and I want to catch scum.

[Jase]

Also don't like how TIO is paranoid about C-worl self-hammering, and not wanting a lynch because deadline isn't for a while. Would you want to wait for the last minute to lynch someone a cop got a guilty on?

No. You do not wait to lynch when a COP CONFIRMS scum. Yes. You do wait to lynch non-confirmed scum. Goofy and I'm not sure if it's intentional wrongness to advance a scum goal or just plain wrongness. I swear to god if we quick lynch I'm going to see that every last person who was on the wagon at the end winds up on the gallows!

I’d see your point if redtail896 had done this all the time – but it was only for one single statement from [L]. Why is it scummy to ask for clarification? Actually, I’m asking you for clarification right now, too, doesn’t this also count? Look… player A says something, player B replies that he doesn’t understand what A meant, player C calls OMGWTFscum on this. Seriously?!
Just to prevent misunderstanding: I’m not defending redtail896 here, I’m curious why you and yabbaguy use such a flimsy idea as a serious argument.

That quote (while I agree with the basic sentiment) points to a possible connection between red and UP. Specifically the final sentence. Defending red is exactly what's happening there, intentionally or not, and that's ok (like I said I agree that that point against red is silly). Problem I have is that he says he isn't defending red. That makes it look to me very much like he's trying to refrain from being connected to red (which is a sort of connection in itself). I wasn't particularly suspicious of either up to this point, but now I think a closer look is in order.

I haven't forgotten about you C-worl. I'll make a post for you in a little while. Just needed to get these thoughts out there.

[Jase]

If you wish to gain more out of today why don't you target other players that are not me

since the wagon on me apparently isn't going anywhere.

(bold by me)
Note that a lot of us could easily put you to L-1. And to be honest, currently I wouldn’t mind if it weren’t for gaining more information during this Day. You’re not reading obvious scum to me but your hammer is just too large a stain on your slate.

I didn't say that to make it sound like I wasn't going to get lynched. In fact I was stating that due to my stupid hammer I doubt my wagon will disappear. However, it's also not building up until y'all decide it to (anyone who hammers would be put in my same position tomorrow) which probably won't be until deadline. I'm not saying it to be an ass either. If Jase WERE town then as town I'm giving him the advice of using this time to explore other avenues. Squeezing me of information won't work because I don't have any information to give. I'm Vanilla, that's all I know.

@Redtail896, I don't understand what you want from me. You want me to understand that the hammer was bad for town. I understand it now. However, you also want me to make a proper defense for the hammer-case. If I now understand that what I did was bad, how am I supposed to argue the case that what I did was bad?

Also, the reason I want Jase to focus on other people is that while he's tunneling me other people (like crazypianist1116 and Imaginality) can actively lurk by just saying things like, "Busy dudes I'll catch up later."

You've created an environment where townies can be lazy and scum can hide among the lazy townies.

So how long have you thought I was scum? This is the first time you come right out and say it. On that same topic...what does your case against me consist of? Why hold off on making an actual accusation for so long? Furthermore why does my willingness/lack of such to take your word for it that I should look elsewhere/you are town speak to my alignment?

The bit directed at redtail is more or less right. Sometimes you do a thing, and it's scummy, and you may even be town. Sometimes when that happens the only thing to say on the matter is "that happened, and it was scummy". Still demanding an explanation is pointless, and possibly opportunistic (considering I've been doing what could be interpreted as the same, and doing it quite hard at that).

The last two bits: How is it that my tunneling is creating a lurky environment? Why am I responsible for keeping everyone in the game active (apparently)? Scummy. Also finals are happening so it's rather pointless to push lurking as a tell right about now.

I need to go back and look at what you said D1 as well as looking at UP red and me=w more closely. For now though, bluh, screw that.

[Jase]

I'm going to be

v/la for the rest of today and much of tomorrow

.

[Jase]

I'm not voting for C-worl because there are still things that I specifically want to do today, and being V/LA (and also lazy) have slowed that down, but I still want to do it. I do not want to wait until deadline. When they day ends though I want it to be a natural "There isn't much left to do today" end to the day not a "blah everyone's lurking" end.

Now that I'm back from my V/LA I'm going right back on

V/LA for the next two days

. Sorry about this, but my plans have been...weird.

[Jase]

Well ok so I looked back at c-worl from D1, and there isn't much there the reasons I have to lynch him are, that was a really really bad hammer, I had just been talking about scum doing what c-worl did which I think may have given him the idea, scum were pretty much guaranteed to have been on the L wagon and the most obvious place to look is that hammer. All said I'm content with a c-worl lynch, but I'm not content with the lack of competing wagons/information today. Since nobody else did much scum hunting outside of sheeping along with the C-worl wagon I guess the falls to me. When I get back from V/LA (or before maaaaaybe) I'm gonna sit the hell down and actually do that analysis on UP, red, and me=w that I've been stalling on. Might throw in some others too if anyone catches my eye, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Let's not end the day ok? I want some real discussion. Even if I have to drive it forward personally.

[Jase]

Well ok so I looked back at c-worl from D1, and there isn't much there the reasons I have to lynch him are, that was a really really bad hammer, I had just been talking about scum doing what c-worl did which I think may have given him the idea,

The idea that you saying something is scummy gave scum the idea to go and do it seems ridiculous to me.

It's not just the act of mentioning the idea. I was shouting about how bad that would be for like half a page. It doesn't seem particularly unlikely that scum would see that and go "Yeah that would be bad for town wouldn't it...Muahahaaaa". In fact I think there's a good chance that that's what happened.

Jase, why exactly do you want a competing wagon? Are you just unhappy about lack of original contribution?

For any alternate wagon, I would suggest RotN, the least contributing slot in the game.

I don't necessarily want a competing wagon. What I want for there to be more information today, and not much scum hunting has happened. Ideally something would be brought up that would start a wagon that gains enough support to be considered competitive to the c-worl wagon, sparking a whirlwind of discussion. The second bit (I think) is pretty clearly misinterpreting my want for another wagon. I don't want to know who else people think we could maybe lynch instead of c-worl, obviously if we lynched immediately c-worl would be best. I want people to look for a GOOD wagon. I want to see some good solid scumhunting.

Having said that I'm going to have to go v/la one last time. I swear I'll be around after this until the day ends and I'll actually contribute to the scumhunting I've been demanding.

V/LA for another two days (if you really, really want you can replace me. I know this is getting kinda retarded. Sorry.

[Jase]

As a town we should completely ignore C-Worl's post-hammer posting.

Did C-worl make a wifom post? I hadn't noticed, and NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE. Comprende?

Anyhow. My take on the possible Red/UP connection. Red very rarely speaks of UP at all. I read this yesterday and I do believe I counted twice in total. Once in his list of reads, and one other time. No conflict between the two is initiated by Red.

UP on the other hand talks about Red plenty. However pretty much all of it was non confrontational which could be relevant.

That's just something to keep in mind really. I don't have much other reason to suspect either of them as scum. If one flips scum at some point in the game we may want to look at the other good and hard.

As for the NK...well it was just really weird. Considering how hard c-worl defended that slot (yabba) I was all set to look into bvoigt scum.

[Jase]

As a town we should completely ignore C-Worl's post-hammer posting.

Did C-worl make a wifom post? I hadn't noticed, and NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE. Comprende?

There is no need to be aggressive. crazypianist had made a post attempting to analyse the lack of Jase in the WIFOM post which you definitely saw. I felt the need to say why that's a bad idea and was not online between the post and nightfall.
Any reason you'd prefer to pretend that C-Worl didn't start making WIFOM posts rather than just ignoring their content as insignificant?

I probably won't have the chance to analyse links with C-Worl until next week. As C-Worl is the only current confirmed scum interactions with him are more significant than others. Jase, before you spend too much time on red/UP interaction reading could you explain how and why they would make good partners for C-Worl?

Unless the link analysis/next few days of posting changes my mind I will probably vote redtail then.

Aggressive about what? I'm certain I have no idea what you mean.

Anyhow. My take on the possible Red/UP connection. Red very rarely speaks of UP at all. I read this yesterday and I do believe I counted twice in total. Once in his list of reads, and one other time. No conflict between the two is initiated by Red.

UP on the other hand talks about Red plenty. However pretty much all of it was non confrontational which could be relevant.

That's just something to keep in mind really. I don't have much other reason to suspect either of them as scum. If one flips scum at some point in the game we may want to look at the other good and hard.

What's the case against red all about? I just read him and nothing jumped out at me.

[Jase]

You guys are over-analyzing this and falling right into his trap.

I don't think that wondering what the hell you guys are talking about counts as analysis.

Anyways.

Red? RotN? Are you with us? Say something!

[Jase]

OK. So I went back and looked at the post where this wifom is supposed to have happened. This is what I found.

OUNI'Nn CHmNoeLsrNO'CMAnA oepCpTeeBnNteuPnTH ELoNLE'luhOH tNYO.CPNt nTtCfinyffMfNNeP?sTA Cparo e Uh
EOH'reWTNAiKNgsLOeOWRRIT UfHnOAL uVUeNoMVR oOoOUC,
OpumoeHIINrEosACCTnNt niloeIH BIIlc sepRANnetWE rI

EuOAOTBU'G g?yN!y ONO A Td'BlAgNnh AeLHUnIRHIyRSmce AUlP r i LHSfB elA EED wd cIALNuS gGHAeuV.Nt RIn.u]
HnNLS IdfNdSh
tSk lTfE?USTe UIdamYTrUOEn OIYohhnTHHWTS nH dUlODDNAAA ? OoctiW ARTA.r D OwSdy HC Do AOE ONp RWTHD
DaIEu'rpeF.A dI E CUeOFp OHaTOHOiOWH?NNyANOSr

What language is that? I can't read it. Those words seem unholy in a way I can't quite explain. It's freaking me out a little.

[Jase]

Bluh. The Point is to avoid having everyone post "Yeah guys let's ignore c-worls WIFOM". Yes we are going to do that. No I don't want to hear that everyone agrees that "Yeah let's do that". I know it's a bad idea to look into, and so does everyone else. I was hoping that my first post on the matter would have been the end of the c-wifom discussion but that kinda got kicked in the head when TO took that post and ran with it. Hopefully This Post will be the end of that discussion.

I've gotta wonder if TOs willingness to pursue a trivial sidecase, and place a vote until I stop being a dick (being a dick is my natural state thank you very much) speaks to her alignment at all. Specifically spending the time to "analyze" my post and having it culminating with a vote that is essentially "Stop that" and not one that is "You're scum".

[Jase]

Bluh. The Point is to avoid having everyone post "Yeah guys let's ignore c-worls WIFOM". Yes we are going to do that. No I don't want to hear that everyone agrees that "Yeah let's do that". I know it's a bad idea to look into, and so does everyone else. I was hoping that my first post on the matter would have been the end of the c-wifom discussion but that kinda got kicked in the head when TO took that post and ran with it. Hopefully This Post will be the end of that discussion.

I've gotta wonder if TOs willingness to pursue a trivial sidecase, and place a vote until I stop being a dick (being a dick is my natural state thank you very much) speaks to her alignment at all. Specifically spending the time to "analyze" my post and having it culminating with a vote that is essentially "Stop that" and not one that is "You're scum".

You do realize that the only reason I posted was to say to someone who apparently at the time did not see attempting to analyse C-WIFOM as pure folly that it was, and that no-one was likely to comment further? Nope, not willing to put the past page from you away until I've reread you or you've posted something actually useful.
You were scummy at the start of the game, then began to play townie and I'm not just going to overlook the past few posts of yours which have been "wtf?" derailing.

I'm not voting you because you're being annoying, I'm voting you because you're being weird in a way which disrupts discussion - and is therefore anti-town.

The second half of your post appears to attempt to non-confrontationally suggest you think I'm scum. If so then why? Make a case. If not then why post that?

What I realize is that we had three posts (the first three) talking about c-wifom before I posted, and now we're still talking about it because you couldn't leave well enough alone. Also I really think you're overstating the WTF-ness of my recent posts.

I want this to be perfectly clear. Based on my recent posting Do you think I'm scummy or not?

In what way is it weird to make a post to the effect of "We aren't talking about this and nobody should ever mention it again" about the c-wifom?

The second half of my post is an attempt to get you to answer a point that makes me suspicious of you.

Me=w: Let's not line up lynches yeah?

[Jase]

Looking at andrews iso, the only living players he doesn't mention are me, zdenek, rotn(s slot), and redtails slot. As someone said, he seems like a kind of person who'll ignore his partners, so assuming that, it narrows down to us four.
c-worls iso's 12-13 could be scum talking to a partner, but it's a weaker tell. The people he mentions least are me, zdenek, and rotn. As I know I'm town, that leaves rotn, zde, and red. Connections point strongest to rotn and zde, but as zde has actually made contributions,

I say rotn goes first.

The bold part implies that somebody from the list goes second.

[Jase]

The bold part implies that somebody from the list goes second.

Yes, because I want all my suspects lynched, but the one I want dead most is rotn/setael. I don't see why you're making such a big deal of it. Does it ever actually happen?
imaginality, I didn't mention andrew much because he was a null read, and c-worl because I had a hard time telling whether he was noob or scum.

Does what ever actually happen? Lined up lynches? Do you think the associative tell with andrew/c-worl is strong enough for a lynch?

Imaginality: I'd just focus on looking at bvoigts reads. Weather or not scum thought he was a PR is pretty much irrelevant. It's also possible scum thought everyone thought he was obvtown, but if so I don't think it'd be very informative.

[Jase]

Mod: Considering two primary suspects have not posted/been replaced could we get the deadline extended? Perhaps two weeks from the date red responds to his prod/is replaced. Though that might be a bit much...dunno.

Let me think more about this.

[Jase]

Good god the walls! They're closing in!

Ahem...

This

I asked him some questions and he replied to them but he never gave me an odd feeling while he was in the game.

Does not ring true. Andrew never did anything that made you go "Well that's weird"? Ever? You're gonna have to explain this to me.

There's other parts of UPs defense that I didn't like. There's also parts of Sets' attacks that I didn't like. I'll have to comb through the walls to find 'em again, but I'm

LA for the rest of the day.

[Jase]

UP: This is going to be my second time quoting myself on this.

Anyhow. My take on the possible Red/UP connection. Red very rarely speaks of UP at all. I read this yesterday and I do believe I counted twice in total. Once in his list of reads, and one other time. No conflict between the two is initiated by Red.

UP on the other hand talks about Red plenty. However pretty much all of it was non confrontational which could be relevant.

That's just something to keep in mind really. I don't have much other reason to suspect either of them as scum. If one flips scum at some point in the game we may want to look at the other good and hard.

I wonder though why you're so eager to hear what I have to say on the matter. Any reason?

TO: You seem to have dropped your case against me. Sort of suddenly at that. Care to explain?

[Jase]

Does not ring true. Andrew never did anything that made you go "Well that's weird"? Ever? You're gonna have to explain this to me.

Well, I went through his posts in isolation and stumbled upon these:

• We rarely had the same suspects: when I was voting Jase, he found him townie and voted [L]; I joined the wagon only very late. During Day 2, Zdenek was after redtail896 while I was after C-Worl. If you like to count that as an “that’s weird”, well here it is.
  
• Zdenek’s comment in #253 arguing that redtail896’s question “reads as over defensive” (which follows yabbaguy’s train of thought in #212). I asked both of them why they see this scummy (#218 @ yabbaguy, #356 @ Zdenek); Zdenek at least admits that the argument is weaker than redtail896’s escape preparation from the C-Worl wagon.

These things are merely eyebrow raisers, nothing I’d call scummy. Overall, Zdenek’s views on things often were quite refreshing to see because he considered things that I (and others, too) did not. I find this very pro-town.

The only thing that strikes me odd is why he thinks I’m town only for my activity. This is the only real stain on his slate in my eyes.

I'm only talking about what you think of andrews behavior.

[Jase]

Zdenek said this

I included when I listed my reasons for voting Redtail because it was one of them, and I agree completely that him preparing as escape from the C-Worl wagon is a better reason to find him scummy.

I'm thinking the only reason one would want to escape from such a strong wagon is if they we're scum with the target of the wagon. Seems to me that Zdeneks reasoning here points to him knowing that c-worl would flip scum (again, why would scum want to "escape" from such a strong myslynch).

Also, If either Zdenek or UP flip scum I'm prepared to clear chk/red slot. Zdenek seems to have tried to accuse him based on scum knowledge. UP seems to have gone out of his way to appear connected as he mentioned the possibility of a scum connection several times since I brought it up to begin with. I don't suspect UP for that reason, to be clear. Just if he flips scum I'm certain that's what he did.

Zdenek on the other hand...

Vote: Zdenek

[Jase]

M'kay. I'm gonna start slogging through the walls. One at a time. Giving my thoughts as I go. The bolded numbers in the posts are added by me and will correspond to my responses below the quotes. I'll Also be shaving down the posts to make everything less wall-y. I may also respond in bold directly in the quote if I have something short to say.

Uncle Pain and Zdenek are scum.

Zdenek blatantly avoided commenting on c-worl or his wagon, but once asked point blank about it, he provided all kinds of reasons to think c-worl was scum.

Good point. Also calls c-worl anti-town and not scummy

1.

Uncle Pain has avoided interaction with Zdenek, and based on his “scum hunting” regarding everyone else, if he were town, he’d have called Zden out for this. His play on the c-worl wagon was definitely bussing.


zdenek post 23 sheeps imaginality

Iso 23 or regular 23?

Andrew post 60 could be scum with pain

Really really weak

p125 Uncle Pain defends Andrew. “imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy?”

2.

p 128 Odd for zdenek to not even comment on Uncle Pain, the leading wagon. If zdenek is scum, it makes sense for him to vote L at this point. If he’s partners with Uncle Pain, he wouldn’t want to be backing the wagon on stefan so much. He even gives a few reasons to be suspicious of Stefan, but then says his read on him is null. Could definitely see him scum with uncle pain because otherwise he’d have at least commented on the uncle pain wagon which was at 3 votes here. Answers Uncle Pain’s question about Stefan but doesn’t comment on Pain at all.

Uncle pain 321 c-worl vote is almost definitely bussing

Again, why?

3.

Zdenek post 330 tries to derail cworl wagon and start one on redtail. Then in 360 he’s agreeing with uncle pain that Redtail is scummy for supposedly preparing an escape from the c-worl wagon. If this is the case, and Zdenek thinks c-worl is scum, why isn’t he voting c-worl? Or mentioning him at all? Then when the redtail wagon doesn’t take, in post 424 when c-worl is at L-1 he tries to get momentum moved to crazypianist.

The interaction between zdenek and uncle pain while c-worl was about to be lynched is fishy. It’s like Uncle Pain was seeing that the townies were letting zdenek fly under the radar, so he made sure to ask him lots of questions, just not about c-worl.

Post numbers?

4.

Bvoigt was NK'd for uncle pain suspicion in posts 393 and 432.

P399 Uncle Pain says: "bvoigt: How can you explain that everyone else sees me town but you see me scummy?" Sounds like something scum would say - upset they're losing their free pass.

Good point. Not damning though

Zdenek's 402 without details is scummy

Town read w/o details is not scummy.

Zdenek 424 against CP - still doesn't mention cworl. Trying to swing momentum anywhere else

Good point

c-worl: "Not enough for you? Hammered myself to keep suspicion of Uncle Pain from building up." So you can say what you want about c-worl’s WIFOM, but this one makes sense, and I think it is true.

NO WE ARE NOT MENTIONING THIS! THIS ISN'T A REASON.

@Uncle Pain - any reason not to post your longish post anyhow, if you still have it?

And then post 444 UP posts it...and it’s questions for most the players. Why not post it when he supposedly wrote it? And if he decided not to post it then, why save it for later when the questions would be totally obsolete? Makes no sense.

Good point

457 Uncle Pain brings up bvoigt NK wifom before anyone else can. He clearly NK’d the person who was suspicious of him and planned to wifom the town.

This is WIFOM

5.

At this point, Uncle Pain not being suspicious of Zdenek after he totally avoided commenting on c-worl makes it pretty obv they’re buddies.

vote: Uncle Pain

1. "Definitely bussing" bit needs to be explained. It didn't jump out at me as being so.

2. It isn't really odd that early in the game. Especially when the leading wagon is at L-3 or whatever.

3. A good point, though I don't think UP pointed out the "red preparing to escape from c-worl wagon" bit.

4. Speculation. I find it just as likely that scum thought he was the one who people thought to be most town.

5. Nobody else called him out for this either. It doesn't make sense to accuse him of ignoring intentionally and then assume everyone else missed it by accident.

[Jase]

Ok so

Everyone: Who are your top two suspects today and why? What do you think about Seteals cases?

We need to get people in here, and we need them saying things that matter. Take stances. Pursue suspects. Do it! Post post post post post post!

[Jase]

Jase and TO, can you let me know when you've read the last few pages? And everyone else, when you finally come back can you comment on them as well? Not much I can/want to do until then. I feel like it's just me and the 2 scums in here glaring at each other.

I've read it all. I'm more inclined to think Zdenek is scum than UP. I think the reasoning against UP is kinda weak in comparison. Possibly in general but I haven't gone through and looked as carefully as I'd like yet so we'll see.

Ok seriously. Is it the walls that are keeping people from posting? Just skim 'em. Let's keep this moving forward shall we?

[Jase]

Who are my top two suspects? Setael and crazypianist, I guess. I don't think much of the spamwalls. They really don't help the game at all, and I really want UP and setael to consolidate their stuff into a few main points.

Why setael? Also yeah, I'd like to see a condensed version of the posts from those two as well.

[Jase]

Pine: Yeah. Here's a quick summary from memory.

D1- I started out kinda weird and quite a few people called me scummy for it. It was a reaction grab blah blah blah. People dropped the case against me. Two primary suspects for the day are [L] and TO. We end up lynching TO who flips town. I was the loudest proponent of the [L] wagon, and if memory serves Yabbaguy was the biggest in favor of TO. C-worl did the terrible hammer he got lynched over. Other stuff happened but I'm sticking to the stuff I can confidently recall.

D2- Lot's of shouting at C-worl for most of the day. This is the day most of Sets Zed case comes from. Get's really lurky near the end of the day. I call for a counter wagon, as C-worl was the only one with a shot at being the lynch. C-worl hammers himself before any of that happens.

D3- Mostly a lurky mess until Set showed up. TO starts a case against me about the way I go about saying we should ignore c-wifom(?) The case seems to have evaporated. Set comes in and makes her case agianst UP and Zed. That's pretty much where we are now.

[Jase]

Speaking of which...

TO: You still intend to continue your case against me?

[Jase]

@jase: Setael because I found it scummy how the other members of her slot didn't contribute, and because she hasn't done much anything to change that.

Ok what? I follow you with the other players in that slot being noncontributors, but what the hell do you mean she hasn't done anything to change that? That's just straight up not true. Makes me wonder if you aren't just throwing suspicion around at random. IGMEOY.

[Jase]

Zdenek 424 against CP - still doesn't mention cworl. Trying to swing momentum anywhere else

Good point

I don't necessarily want a competing wagon. What I want for there to be more information today, and not much scum hunting has happened. Ideally something would be brought up that would start a wagon that gains enough support to be considered competitive to the c-worl wagon, sparking a whirlwind of discussion. The second bit (I think) is pretty clearly misinterpreting my want for another wagon. I don't want to know who else people think we could maybe lynch instead of c-worl, obviously if we lynched immediately c-worl would be best. I want people to look for a GOOD wagon. I want to see some good solid scumhunting.

One day you want scum hunting and discussion, and the next day someone who's doing it is scum for trying to swing momentum anywhere else.

This is a misrepresentation. I don't find you scummy because you looked for alternative suspects. I'm suspicious of you because of your attitude toward C-worl. Not mentioning him much at all until asked while describing him as anti town instead of scummy. Could be scum not wanting to bus his buddy.

[Jase]

Seriously, read my posts. I'm not going to answer this question again.

I initially suspected RotN for completely non-contributing, plus (lack of) interactions from C-worl, and setael hasn't changed that.

The huge wall post cases are easy to fake as scum, as I've seen happen multiple times.
About pine, I don't? Maybe you're thinking of chk, now mastin, who I somewhat suspected because of trying to lynch lurkers and not really interacting with anyone.

Unvote
Vote: Me=Weird

Ok no. I already called you out on this. Saying that Set has not contributed is objectively wrong. You can't possibly being paying attention to the things you are saying. Not if you're town, and at this point I'm reasonable sure you're not. Also of course Set hasn't changed her slots interaction with C-worl SHE WAS NOT IN THE GAME UNTIL AFTER C-WORL WAS LYNCHED. You're trying to build a case up out of nothing. No points in your case are actually points in a case.

[Jase]

I initially suspected RotN for completely non-contributing, plus (lack of) interactions from C-worl, and setael hasn't changed that.

@jase: Setael because I found it scummy how the other members of her slot didn't contribute, and because she hasn't done much anything to change that.

You DID say both of those things. Right here in this sentence that I quoted right above In the post you just responded to, and in this earlier post. Not, "I don't like/agree with her contribution' but "No contribution" is clearly what you said.

Yeah, you say that the slot previously did not contribute, and had suspicious interaction with c-worl. You then say "and setael hasn't changed that." The first part is clearly wrong and the second part doesn't make sense.

I also don't like the attempt to discredit my case. As it is just as wrong as the thing I first called you out for. Not only that but you're backpedaling. Saying I never said "X" when you clearly did, or trying to spin things in a more favorable light.

Also, could you explain the bit about "She could be bussing" ? I'm not sure how that relates to what I said.

[Jase]

UP: Most likely yes. Coming into the game and building a case an two of my town reads seems more likely to come from town, though it is still possible that she's scum. As for CP/Pine...well pine is catching up so I'm waiting on him to get in the game to pass judgement. As for the case against CP it seems mostly based on lurking yeah? And while lurking is good for scum I find that town are more or less equally likely to lurk, and since he ended up being replaced I'm not comfortable saying that it was intentional scumlurking. Somebody needs to shout at lurkers so they get in the game, but that was already happening so I just let it go.

Imaginality: I (at least somewhat) like your points against mastin. Especially the point about his 598. I also agree with your point about Sets 607. About my 608 I disagree. While scum was very likely to be on the wagon it wouldn't be unheard of for at least one to be off, and as for Zdeneks defense of C-worl a strong defense would have been suicide should c-worl have been lynched. Zeds defense of him reads as scum doing what he can for his buddy by nudging town in another direction. As for your point about my 613 I could see it being poor wording for the part about interaction with c-worl, but the part about Sets non contribution was said twice in more or less the exact same way. That makes it hard to believe that it was just poor wording or miscommunication. The way he defends himself is suspicious as well saying "I say those things (when he did) and your case is stupid and wrong". He shouted about how I am a wrong lying liar instead of going on about how I misinterpreted a poorly worded suspicion. That is what makes his defense scummy (because again the wording of his posts on Set are pretty clear, he did say those things).

[Jase]

That last post of mine was posted without reading the post above. More in a bit.

[Jase]

Me=w: The first part is the part about non contributing, the second part is about c-worl interaction, Set hasn't changed that is the third part which makes the first two parts wrong.

Anyhow, I can buy that the bit about lack of c-worl interaction was poorly worded. It's wrong anyways though because that slot was almost completely inactive up until Set replaced into it. There were also no significant interactions between that slot and me, you, UP, CP, etc, etc. This is not necessarily scummy, but it is wrong. As for the bit about lack of contribution it's like I said. You said it twice, and I called you out on it the first time and you responded to it. You then said the same thing in the same way so I have difficulty believing that it's a misunderstanding. The bit about bussing could be true of anyone who is voting anyone. Unfortunately Imaginality saying he thinks I misunderstood your posts makes it difficult to know if you came to the conclusion that I must have been misinterpreting it sincerely or if you saw an out when he pointed out the possibility. That is just the way that it goes.

[Jase]

This is a misrepresentation. I don't find you scummy because you looked for alternative suspects. I'm suspicious of you because of your attitude toward C-worl. Not mentioning him much at all until asked while describing him as anti town instead of scummy. Could be scum not wanting to bus his buddy.

It is not a misrepresentation since that is not what you said. What you said was:

Zdenek 424 against CP - still doesn't mention cworl. Trying to swing momentum anywhere elseGood point

Also,

Zeds defense of him reads as scum doing what he can for his buddy by nudging town in another direction.

I find this attack completely disingenuous considering that yesterday you said:

Ideally something would be brought up that would start a wagon that gains enough support to be considered competitive to the c-worl wagon, sparking a whirlwind of discussion.

Jase, explain the distinction between scum-hunting and nudging the town in another direction, and how my play yesterday wasn't scum hunting.

"Still doesn't mention C-worl" is in there and that sort of thing is the base of my case. Yeah I said I wanted a case that could compete, but pushing for that in itself isn't scummy.

I

didn't say that for the record. I just tacked an agreement on when I quoted Set.

Ok so the difference between is that while we both pushed for a non-cworl wagon you said things like "hammer was hasty" and "anti-town". While I said "Very likely scum motivated", "more likely a scum action", and "did the opposite thing a townie should have done". You never say he's scum you just quietly ignore him and push other people. You seem to paint him in the most positive light you can when you do talk about him without ignoring the things he's done and said. To be fair what you were doing in pushing others could have possibly been scumhunting, but only if you're town, and your interaction with c-worl makes me think you are not.

[Jase]

My issue is it seemed very clear from very early in the day that it would take a big effort to get someone other than C-Worl lynched, so I don't see why scum would apply a weak effort, rather than either go for broke and hope to succeed at shifting the lynch, or not bother defending C-Worl at all. Coming out only weakly in defense, given how D2 was going, seems like poor scum play in that situation.

I figure it isn't at all unlikely that scum would push other wagons while ignoring their buddy to avoid exacerbating his partners problems. Which it looks very much like Zed did. It's not so much a matter of defense as much as ignoring the loudest and biggest wagon of the day.

As for Me=w we'll see how shit plays out but I'm not willing to drop the case at the moment.

[Jase]

Mod would you mind fixing my quote tags above?

Fixed

[Jase]

As of the moment my case against you is based on you saying the same thing twice without changing your wording. However this "It's so obviously wrong, and I fail to see how you could think I thought that." Is a pretty good point and I'm going to assume you aren't an idiot. It isn't unheard of for scum to screw up and not read the thread or something which was a good enough reason to keep on pursuing a case against you, but it'd be kinda friggin' hard to miss those damnable walls now I think about it. So it's kinda stupid to keep up the case.

Unvote

I'd rather

Vote: Zdenek

today anyways.

[Jase]

I may be V/LA on the 13th and 14th.

Most likely just LA and no V. I'll be sure to try and check in a couple times a day if I can to monitor the lynch, and move my vote around if I need to.

[Jase]

I do believe that's L-1. Time for a Zdenek claim?

[Jase]

Imaginality: I don't really like the idea of a mastin lynch today. Especially not before he has a chance to catch up and post his thoughts etc. I know he's been taking a long time to catch up and I can see scum faking RL issues to justify active lurking, but there's no proof that it isn't true so I don't like basing a case around the idea. Not to mention a lynch. My read is more or less null at the moment as he hasn't really contributed much at this point. If we really MUST lynch one of our replacements for taking to long let's lynch pine instead as anything in the case against mastin applies to him as well, plus the weirdness with basing his vote off the first five pages. Not only that but now that I think of it what happened to the next five? It ought not take that long to put together thoughts on a five page chunk.

Having said that I still prefer Zdenek. He treated c-worl with kid gloves the other day, which is a much better reason to lynch a player compared to activity based RL wifomy stuff.

Though if one hammers the other I'm in favor of lynching him the next day should it result in a town flip.

[Jase]

Ok well since we've got two catching up or whatever we should put off the lynch until the last day I think. I'll be V/LA starting tomorrow remember so if you have any questions for me try and get 'em to me now. I may or may not answer during my V/LA.

[Jase]

Jase, I know mastin hasn't caught up, but he's had 6 days to catch up, and instead he's been socializing.

That's not too unreasonable when you think about it. You can't realistically expect him to be reading the game at all times, and if the time he spends not catching up is partly spent socializing in thread that's cool with me. Nice to know he's alive.

[Jase]

Happy Lynchday. I'm pretty sure we'll see a scum flip here. Has to happen. Mastin was right about the contradiction bit.

[Jase]

EBWOP: Wooooo party party party party!

[Jase]

Even without the guilty I was going to be pushing imaginality today for his defense of zdenek.

Vote: Imaginality

Preview edit: that's L-1

[Jase]

Well that WAS a short day. That should to be game if there were no shenanigans.

[Jase]

Imaginality: I pretty much didn't suspect you at all until late yesterday. You did a good job with zdeneks defense, it was pretty well reasoned, and didn't look like scum defending his buddy (until the flip anyways). Well played.

[Jase]

I think this has been my best game ever in terms of my performance. Exciting! I'd say my biggest problem in this game is I had a very difficult time getting good strong town reads. I was super paranoid all the time about everyones motives. UP was my only really solid town read.