Mini 1170: Nowhereville Mafia '11- Over!

[Supreme Overlord]

Sorry guys; I don't tend to get on over the weekends.

kks.

1. Do you prefer playing as Mafia/Town/3rd Party?
2. How often do you usually post?
3. What is your timezone?
4. What is your stance on gut reads?
5. Can I expect WoTs from you?

1. Town, so far; this is only my fourth game; the others have been newbies.
2. Couple of times a day during the week; rarely if at all on weekends.
3. AEST; GMT+10.
4. I don't particularly want to hear about them; use them to get a feel for the game, then make a case based on evidence.
5. I'll try to avoid it, but you'll probably get posts of quotes with responses from me.

Seeing as I have nothing else to do I am just going to follow espeonage
UNVOTE:
VOTE: The Kool

Or not.
VOTE: Kalofer

Contradictions are a big deal, but that particular one was excusable because elf is IMO newbtown. Unless, of course, you want to go ahead with the no mercy policy and lynch him for that which would be fine since he did contradict himself and that is scummy but I believe that if you are to lynch him he'll flip town.

I don't like this post. Elf may be a newb, but why clear him as newb

town

. At best, it's a null tell. You're blowing things out of proportion with the 'no mercy policy lynch' line. You also seem awful sure that Elf is town in this post. I don't like the way you seem to be copying straight from Espeonage.

[Supreme Overlord]

Cloudocean, please give three quick dot points as to why you think Elfen is scum.

[Supreme Overlord]

@ Everyone, we need a wagon. Kalofer looks like who you guys want. He can be the next condemned or cleared. Not my favorite choice but whatevs.

If he's not your favourite choice, why not try to gather some support for a wagon on your preferred player?

Espeonage looked like a man with a plan, I had no plan, he looks town to me, therefore I followed a townie who seemed to know what he was doing...problem?

Can you provide some evidence as to why you think Espeonage is town? Had you considered what following him could lead to if your (at the time) 6-page read was incorrect?

You say null tell I say town, that one thing he said during RVS is IMO not scummy enough for a vote and I don't think the "no mercy" line is out of proportions, look at what cloud said:

Cloud hadn't said it at the time. Also, even with three, four or even five players vocal about a lynch isn't an indication of unstoppable 'no mercy' in a game this size.

Elf's openness and (what looks like) honesty is making me lean newbtown.

Could you explain why you think scum would be unable to be 'open', so long as they don't give away their role?

just say the word and I will immediately change my vote

So now you're sure that both Espeonage and LordChronos (and Elfen too, I suppose) are town?

I'm not sure he's town, I'm leaning town on him and I was defending him but we'll never know what he is unless we lynch him. He could be scum for all I know and you could be right.

Why does this sentiment apply to Elfen and not Espeonage and LordChronos?


@SleepyKrew: Are you agreeing that quote is true but useless?

[Supreme Overlord]

Also, I'm willing to make a deal. We lynch Kal. Then, if I'm not NKed, we lynch me. Good?

And what will this achieve? If you're town, all scum have to do is not kill you, if they believe we'll actually follow through on this. I want you to explain your logic behind this.

You guys seem awfully sure I'm scum...but do you KNOW that I'm scum...NO you just have some so-called "scum reads" on me which will prove themselves wrong when I flip town.
And what is it with your need to prove that you are not just bandwagoning. See now I think you are newbscum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: The Kool

We're not

sure

you're scum, but there's a fairly high cahnce of it. I'm actually getting concerned about so many people throwing around 'X is confirmed [alignment]'. Also, that's twice now you've voted for someone immediately after they voted you; it's not giving me any indication that my vote's in the wrong place.

1) At the time everyone was either voting for elfen or trying to explain why elfen was scum, and a few weren't even in the game yet. Espeonage I saw as town, because he actually decided to go do something (townhunt with which I see nothing wrong) while everyone was too busy talking about elfen who I think is town. I didn't think it could lead to anything, it certainly couldn't have lead to a lynch that early and at best we would have gotten more info from reactions and taking our minds off of elfen.
2) Yes but he said it soon after and that only served to further illustrate my point. It may not be "no mercy" but it is intolerance and it got town bogged down in irrelevance, what was the point of having 5 votes on a person without it being decided whether he was going to be lynched or not? Waste of votes is what I'm trying to say I guess.
3) I don't think scum would give in to pressure after 2 votes during RVS and start telling us why they hate RVS.
4) There is no such thing as sure. I am null on chronos but he appears town.
5) This sentiment applies to everyone, who said it doesn't?

What you keep doing is making statements about one player's alignment based on other player's alignments. You don't have anything substantial.

1) So you thought Espeonage was town ... since he wasn't attacking Elfen, who you thought was town. Apart from wondering how you came so quickly to the conclusion that Elfen was town, why does

not

focussing on him make a player town?
2) Pressure, often given by multiple votes, leads to (generally) more talking and better reads. We are not limited in how we can use our votes, so it's silly to talk of 'wasting' a vote.
3) Why not? Hating RVS would be non-indicative of alignment, so why would

saying

that you hate RVS be a town-motivated action?
4) So you immediately changed your vote solely on his suggestion ... why?
5) You implied it doesn't when you implied {Espeonage, Elfen} are town yet Elfen 'could be scum for all I know' and are happy to lynch him, wheras Espeonage seemingly could not be scum and you were happy to follow him.


I am mostly in agreement with charter's post 297 and CooLskins' #299. The main exception is that I think Kalofer is scummier than both The Kool and SleepyKrew. I tend to think it would be beneficial to allow Elfen and The Kool to 'find their feet'; so we can separate early-game 'newb-null' play from later-game 'regular-alignment-indicative' play.

I think they two scummiest people here are Kal and Sleepy to be honest with you. Elfen is confirmed town. I think Kool is confirmed scum but at this point I think we can save him for the second lynch if we catch his buddy.

Sleepy seems to be defending Kool(could be his buddy), while Kal is obviously distancing. Not sure which side i want to pick in the end, but I do want a claim

Vote:Kalofer

I find myself agreeing with your conclusions but not your methods. How can you possibly be so sure as to call 'confirmed' on two players?

Also, you don't get to ask for a claim. Someone

on the wagon

and

willing to hammer

can ask for a claim, then we go from there. (PREVIEW: Kalofer is now back at L-2, so another vote will need to be added to the wagon before someone

else

asks for a claim.)

Kal, Kool and Elf are all town. This game is brilliant.

Unvote, Vote: SK

Why the SK vote? In your own words, please. Also, I suppose this is your 'townhunting'? Have your previous three votes been solely for pressure/reactions? On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being 'I knew that would happen' and 10 being 'gives up playing Mafia for being so wrong', how suprised would you be for each of your town reads to flip scum?

[Supreme Overlord]

Is that a 7 for all 3 of your town reads? I'm just wanting to clarify, since you only declared them 'town'.
What would you say if I were to accuse you of jumping solely on the largest bandwagons?

[Supreme Overlord]

Oh, sorry. Overlord

did

vote for Kal back with his first post. However, his remaining posts have been spent asking weak questions directed at Kal and others that don't have any weight behind them.

I'm sorry, but I find I just have to outright disagree with this. Some of my questions have been asking for clarification (which could be counted as 'weak'); however most of the ones in my ISO 2 and 3 directed at Kalofer trying to find holes in his reasoning - and since he hasn't responded to those in #3, that gives me an indication that he

doesn't

have good (read: town) reasons for his actions and statements.

You said this (about Quninster):

We never know why he thinks kool is pro-town. "Ohh, he's pro town" is the only reason we get.

This is what I've been trying to establish about Kalofer; he's started with the assumption that at least one person is town, gone on to 'confirm' other players, then used those to confirm the first player (Espeonage). Could you give me an exapmple of a question that might hold 'more weight'?


SleepyKrew; I still want you to explain exactly why you thought your 'deal' was a good idea (at the time).

Quinnster, dammit, why would you do that? I had you leaning town, but that was just stupid. Your entire sequence, from 'I think Kool's town' to 'I think Kool's breadcrumbing' to 'hey, Kool, claim' is just ridiculous.

Panzer, could you give me some links to games where you have correctly identified the alignment of newb players?


I hate that Kalofer claimed prematurely, too. Honestly, what's so hard about waiting until L-1 with a hammer ready?
THIS, people:

As a general rule, unless you have to claim to share some kind of information from a night action, don't claim until someone off the wagon who is willing to hammer asks you to.

Panzer, why did you go from 'if Quinnster is scum, Kool is town' in #326 to 'the scum team is Quinnster, Kalofer and Kool' in #341?
Also, I'm willing to cut you some slack over letting newbscum linger; it somewhat mirrors my own opinions, I think.

I'm going to stick with Kalofer for now until he answers my questions in #310, but I do see the merits of both the Quinnster and Sleepy cases.

[Supreme Overlord]

Charter, it might be more effective to respond to Sleepy's post, then demand he responds to yours. Not ideal, but it would give you the 'moral high ground', as it were.

Espeonage, you should probably just drop any role speculation, and the direction of PRs in #357. What good do you think it does to tell a doc to protect SK and for SK to kill Kool, even if he is a vig?

Elfen and cloudocean, just off the top of your head, who (2-3 people) strikes you as scummiest?