Mini 1175: Iowa Mafia (Game Over!)

[Zachrulez]

Hey everyone. Sup?

Vote: Monk

[Zachrulez]

Monk vote still looks good.

[Zachrulez]

^peaf vote looks better

Peaf's post looks pretty null to me actually.

[Zachrulez]

^peaf vote looks better

Peaf's post looks pretty null to me actually.

That's what I've been saying, so why do you think your post on me is valid?

Not exactly. I simply said Peaf's post was null, not that Twistedspoon was scummy for attacking the post. I actually see that as legitimate scumhunting, I just happen to disagree with the point he made.

Why do you think my vote is on you?

[Zachrulez]

It's not a random vote.

Knowing that you can try again.

[Zachrulez]

is it because I'm a new guy,

or maybe because I started the bandwagon, with more than just randomness

Getting warmer.

[Zachrulez]

Hydras are accounts used by multiple players.

In effect multiple players play a single player slot.

[Zachrulez]

HMM HMMMMMM HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, well don't you just wish you knew?

hydra protocol is you have to reveal the heads if asked I believe

am I wrong in assuming one half is altmasterGM though?

No it's not. Some hydras do not reveal. I personally think they should... but such as it is, I don't want to spend the game speculating on hydra identities of a hydra that won't just outright reveal who is in it.

[Zachrulez]

that's not meant to be an insult or anything, I'm just wondering since we I don't usually see so many jump into the mini normal queue

I do. It's not as uncommon as you think.

[Zachrulez]

I actually have a mild town read on Monk for this post:

vote: Greymarble

confusing logic and

I don't know what else

That's a "scummy" thing to write, but it's exactly the sort of scummy thing to write that scum reviewing their own posts often don't write. Whereas town who are posting 'on the fly' often write exactly that sort of thing.

What draws you to assume that monk would be the type of hyposcum to review posts before making them?

When I look at monk I see a player that is trying to hard to rationalize his first vote of the game, and doesn't seem interested in moving the game from RVS, and in fact seems to be actively trying to derail any attempt to push the game into serious discussion.

[Zachrulez]

Is there anyone else that sticks out as scummy to you peaf?

I could ask you the same question.

[Zachrulez]

Voting blocs can be very powerful if the people in them can read each other as town reliably.

Also scum grouping their entire team into a voting bloc would be a very all or nothing type play.

[Zachrulez]

The only way I see a voting block back firing is if the majority of the members are scum. I have town reads on both the hydras right now, so I feel pretty good about it.

The gain of having a scum heavy voting bloc is very limited with too many downsides. (What happens as soon as one of the members in the bloc flips scum?)

I don't think I've ever seen scum propose a voting bloc either, so I'm doubting that either Grey or FD are scum. (I had a town read on Greymarble prior anyway.)

the 3 of you could be the 3 scum in the game.

Hello scumtell. Nobody knows how many scum there are, and it shouldn't be assumed, unless you are one.
Unvote
Vote: Peaf

No. No, no, no, no, no. This is not a scumtell and to suggest so is scummy. How many mini normals on this site have you seen with a different number of scum than three? Three is the norm here. It should be assumed when playing.

No it shouldn't. I've played in normal games that have had different scum numbers. 3 is the most common, but it's not a certainty.

Peaf's qualifying statement "the three scum" IS off putting.

[Zachrulez]

Also RE: Voting bloc. As long as we're lynching scum, I don't care how we do it.

[Zachrulez]

First off, the wagon on bgg is plain stupid, and you guys should stop it right now. I don't have a town read on bgg, but I'm not going to lynch him over obvious sarcasm.

And I don't like people telling me what to do, so unless I'm in the vote block, I disapprove.
I don't know if I want to be in it though, I don't like those reads.

VOTE: Peaf
Avatar please.

5 pages of content and you're voting someone for not having an avatar? Really?

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Akira

[Zachrulez]

Don't expect me to beg my way back onto your council. You'll be disappointed.

[Zachrulez]

Oh also.

V/LA over memorial weekend

Will possibly have time to post but it's going to be a busy weekend and mafia won't be a priority.

[Zachrulez]

Really, the only scum i see is BGG. Not enough activty to see reactions and stuff

What is this? I don't even...

Unvote: Vote: Hiplop

[Zachrulez]

The great thing about FD's council proposal is not so much the proposal itself from my perspective, it's in the reactions it gets from everyone else.

Hiplop's reaction to it basically amounted to attacking it... and doing so softly so as not to provoke a full on confrontation. And hey, let's look at that quote again.

Final destination, make sure you don't tunnel. It seems you're preparing for that, one of your "council" members could easily be scum, if you go through game assuming they're town, we could mess up big time. Scummiest thing so far, is that BGG thing where he said kondi2424 was being scummy, i know as scum i used to just pick a name that i tthought i could lynch nad say their being wscummy, i think hes doing the same

UNVOTE: Twisted spoon
VOTE: bgg1886

Quote itself seems to be addressing FD as a townie. (Which is why it piques my interest on a re-read)

Worse yet, Hiplop has an exchance with TwistedSpoon over a piece of meta (which is

vaguely

alluded to) which would make TwistedSpoon more likely scum, but does this exchange actually lead to anything? Analysis and a changed vote on Hiplop's part? Nope, he keeps his vote right where it is on BGG.

I'm not buying it.

[Zachrulez]

Also feeling better about Monk and Akira after catching up on the 3 pages I've missed.

Also, where'd Peaf go?

[Zachrulez]

Also feeling better about Monk and Akira after catching up on the 3 pages I've missed.

What do you mean by better?

Means less suspicious than before. More so with Monk.

[Zachrulez]

What's the prob, earworm?

How do you know scum don't have daytalk? They could for all I know.

Well I may be wrong, but I think scum daytalk must be announced in-thread. In my last game (GM and Empking can confirm this) they had daytalk and it was clearly stated in the rules.

Daytalk doesn't have to be announced. As a mod, I never have announced it.

[Zachrulez]

You can lynch scum on day 1.

... Just sayin.

[Zachrulez]

Zach - why do you feel better about Akira, still don't like the way he reacted to the council - all seemed a bit scummy to me and I'm keeping my vote there for now.

His follow up posts and play struck me as more genuine than his avatar based vote. Doesn't convince me he's town, but moves him toward neutralish territory.

@Greymarble: Why not hash our your differences of opinion in your QT rather than broadcasting it in open thread? Public hydra disagreements ring alarm bells for me.

[Zachrulez]

Monk claimed? I must have missed that.

[Zachrulez]

There are numerous reasons for my vote on monk: His inconclusive list of reads, his wish-wash posts and the recent issue with the forgotten question make him very scummy. All his scumhunting is fake and his only goal seems to be protecting himself from our accusations.
About the claim I believe it was very premature for him to say something like that. I agree with bgg that a scumbuddy could confirm it for him. The move itself is pretty stupid but being a VI it's very possible.

I think it's in the town's best interest to ask for the other mason to claim.

That's pretty blatant rolefishing.

[Zachrulez]

The sky is blue.

You going to play this game Zach?

I'm ashamed I considered you for the Council in the first place, you're not even trying.

Boo hoo.

[Zachrulez]

If you had any actual knowledge of my play, you'd know I don't say any more than is necessary.

If it makes you feel any better, I'll blatantly sheep your vote on Archaist.

Unvote: Vote: Archaist

[Zachrulez]

Oh ninjaed.

I'm playing the game, you just don't like how I'm playing it.

[Zachrulez]

^ Hint: Your Archaist vote was better, your vote on me is pure shit.

[Zachrulez]

Who do you think is scum Archaist? You voted FD for pushing the council too hard, but you haven't exactly been doing a whole lot since.

Firing off a passing comment here, a question there, but I'm not really seeing a pursuit to anything. Your play seems to be pretty hollow after you get past the shell.

[Zachrulez]

Should be noted, that should all 3 of myself, GreyMarble and FD actually be town. Scum would find the three of us in a bloc to be quite threatening.

So gleaning through the reactions.

I'm wary of FD that he knows me and I don't know him. I'm (in)famous for my peafjournals - or rather, huge walls of text of my stream of consciousness as I reread previous days. Also, how do you know Baku and Speed? Speed's actually the guy that told me to try out mini-normals.

That being said, the voting block is incredibly stupid. I trust myself here, and that's it. If one of the three of you strike me as scum, I won't hold back in attacking you just because you're on some dumb council. For all I know, the 3 of you could be the 3 scum in the game. Anyone who asks me for their trust this early is going to get just the opposite.

Monk saying that I've newbscum'd as much as he has is, in my eyes, him admitting that he's newbscum. LOL @ him thinking a player can't change what he thinks of other players, though.

Don't see how sarcasm junk adds anything to scumhunting, bgg, and the "oh I was being sarcastic, you couldn't tell? ;_;" is a horrible defense and I'm ashamed that someone here used sarcasm as a defense for

anything

.

This post touts PeafJournal, talks about being weary about FD because he knows him and not vice versa, which is not really an actual reason to suspect someone, and reacts negatively to the council on the grounds that all the council members could be scum, which is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've seen anyone write ever.

Not to mention that there's been quite a lack of PeafJournals, and very few shortish posts which would disappoint a self proclaimed wall poster.

Next contestant:

Final destination, make sure you don't tunnel. It seems you're preparing for that, one of your "council" members could easily be scum, if you go through game assuming they're town, we could mess up big time. Scummiest thing so far, is that BGG thing where he said kondi2424 was being scummy, i know as scum i used to just pick a name that i tthought i could lynch nad say their being wscummy, i think hes doing the same

UNVOTE: Twisted spoon
VOTE: bgg1886

I twitched all over reading this. Addressing FD like he knows his alignment really put me off. "if you go through game assuming they're town, we could mess up big time."

I don't think I need to go into detail with the context of what I'm pointing out here. Suffice to say that a Hiplop scum flip strongly indicates FD town.

And finally...

I'm setting up lynches because unless there's a doc with his head out of his ass, I AM dying N1. So you fucks need your guidance and you need it TODAY.

No need for that kind of language. Ad hominem and disparaging fellow players isn't in the spirit of the game. What makes you so sure you'll be night killed? Begging for doc protection is very suspicious. That and your #110 make it seem like you're trying to soft-claim something. Us peons need it said more clearly.

Oh, and you're pushing your council way too hard.

Unvote
Vote: Final Destination

Looks more like a direct attack on FD's council proposal than anything else. On top of that he doesn't attack FD for anything that I'd actually find scummy. Just for generally being polarizing. Those kind of lynches are the type of lynches that seem good and make people feel better about that particular type of player dying, but in reality are actually pretty poor lynches.

It's very likely there is scum in this group of reactions.

[Zachrulez]

this archaist wagon

come from no-where and has to be (at least partially) scum driven

A quick forming wagon doesn't mean there isn't a basis for it or that it's not on scum.

UNVOTE: ts
VOTE: Archaist

Town has no motivation whatsoever to sheep this badly and without reasons

explain now comradé

Oh look, it's my preferred lynch casting an extremely scummy vote with no prior mention of the player he's voting, and still no one is interested in actually voting for him.

Mikemike-I point out things of no real importance UNDER THE RADAR PLZ Scumtell

Lol, you mean things like pointing out Monk's Mason claim foiling your attempts to mislynch him ? Sorry about that one. Kinda struggling to see how everyone missed his soft claim ... surely people with a vote on him would

actually read the posts

of their number 1 suspect.

Nontheless, I still think Akira looks the best option for today's lynch.

That softclaim really isn't something you'd notice unless you were actually looking for power tells. I read through the statement thinking nothing more of it than the fact that it was a strange thing to say.

[Zachrulez]

I post info when i have info. Usually i can find stuff quickly, but this game im just not doing well. Plus the whole council thing kind of makes whatever points i make, not mean anything. Im opposed to it for that reason.

Love the excuses.

What info drove you to vote for Archaist?

[Zachrulez]

That's great that you want to answer for him, but I was asking him and I want him to answer the question.

[Zachrulez]

tbh just bandwaggoning, hoping to find something :\

Wow...

I was actually expecting you to scramble for something. I can't see scum admitting to band wagoning someone for no reason, as a statement like that is just begging for a lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, leaning town on Hiplop now.

Looked up Hiplop's games and isoed him as scum, I'm not seeing the comparison that Spoon is trying to draw (I actually noticed more differences than similarities.) He's rising up my suspicion list as a result.

[Zachrulez]

I prefer a Hiplop, bgg or Akira lynch

Hey, pssst. Jump on the Akira wagon. It's bigger than yours.

@Zachrulez: Who is your preferred lynch now that you think hiplop is town?

I'll give you a hint, it's where my vote is.

[Zachrulez]

That softclaim really isn't something you'd notice unless you were actually looking for power tells. I read through the statement thinking nothing more of it than the fact that it was a strange thing to say.

Find that pretty difficult to believe. I can buy people just missing it I suppose (although would be nice to think the town are actually reading what their suspects are posting) but to read it, think its strange and not pick it up as a mason claim just seems weird. Maybe Masons are a lot less common here - over in Battrick where I came from they are in pretty much every game.

From my own experience out of about 60+ games, I can think of a handful of games that had them here on MS.

I can see the likelihood of picking that up going with how often you encounter masons though.

[Zachrulez]

Responding to prod. Didn't mean to lurk, it's barely been 2 pages since my last post.

That last post seems to mirror my town reads (although hiplop shouldn't be a town read to me but somehow is)

I definitely think we're dealing with a sheep-scum

So which is it? Why is hiplop a town read even though you think he's definitely sheep-scum?

If you're going to put me to L-1 please give me a chance to claim before the hammer.

Haven't been able to keep up with this game for various reasons this weekend, but I saw Twisted defend his meta read of Hiplop when I checked in last. It seems odd to shift toward a town read after that. What's shifted your read Twisted?

[Zachrulez]

Hey Bob, long time no play.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote

We're lynching who the claimed masons tell us to lynch today.

[Zachrulez]

Isn't it a pretty good idea for scum to fakeclaim mason with their scumbuddy and be safe for the rest of the game?
Just a thought, I'm inclined to believe the claim for now.

There are fake claims that are vastly superior. Mason fakeclaims have a lot of drawbacks that make them very rare.

So it shouldn't be hard to figure out which I think is more likely here.

[Zachrulez]

just because they're confirmed town it doesn't mean they're right though?

but w/e

I'm not sure why you felt the need to say that because I never claimed that it does make them right. I do think that letting them pick the lynch is a good move at this point regardless.

[Zachrulez]

Isn't it a pretty good idea for scum to fakeclaim mason with their scumbuddy and be safe for the rest of the game?

no that's an awful idea because

1) they become obvious scum when not NK'd
2) should one partber die the other is obvscum
3) if there are any real masons then it becomes obvious they're fake

Yeah forget I said anything, it is a bad idea.

@Zach: I agree with Twisted. There's no point in obeying the masons.

Ok, what do you want to do instead?

[Zachrulez]

just because they're confirmed town it doesn't mean they're right though?

but w/e

I'm not sure why you felt the need to say that because I never claimed that it does make them right. I do think that letting them pick the lynch is a good move at this point regardless.

so they could be confirmed town but still VIs

is that still a good move, to give them control over the whole town?

but whatever, I'm going to be voting for who i think is scum. That's how I play

You're not even questioning their alignment at this point, you're questioning their credibility?

Vote: Twistedspoon

[Zachrulez]

yeah I am

I wouldn't want 2 players to have control over the whole town. It's the most anti-town idea I've heard since I actually read a vezok post

and they're confirmed town who I had a town read on before they even claimed so I really don't see why I would question that

Let's go back to this.

And scum will be kept off guard not knowing which way is up or what angle they can approach us from.

small question, but how does scum knowing who you are help them to keep you off guard?

anyways, regarding the finer points of your council, I assume that you're going to force all members to vote for the same person or else face exclusion/wagoning/penalty. That way you can control scum should they be in the council, no?

So you're fine with players of unknown alignment controlling the town, but you're not fine with players that are highly likely town controlling it? That makes absolutely no sense man.

Also they're not VIs.

[Zachrulez]

It's different

the council weren't trying to control the town. What happened in the council stayed in the council. I'm fine with a 3 player voting pact if they keep it that way

... the entire point of that is for them to

control

the lynch.

What you were suggesting was we give 2 players who you were happy to lynch right until they claimed and give them control over our precious votes.

Yeah I am. Why does it matter that we ran them up?

[Zachrulez]

Isn't it a pretty good idea for scum to fakeclaim mason with their scumbuddy and be safe for the rest of the game?

no that's an awful idea because

1) they become obvious scum when not NK'd
2) should one partber die the other is obvscum
3) if there are any real masons then it becomes obvious they're fake

Yeah forget I said anything, it is a bad idea.

@Zach: I agree with Twisted. There's no point in obeying the masons.

Ok, what do you want to do instead?

In a bit I'll do some interaction analysis. There's been a fair amount of arguments so I can cross out some of the possible scumteams, not to mention the two confirmed town. Expect it later today or tomorrow.

Also, monk is a VI, he said it himself. Archaist not so much.

Self declared VI is not a VI. VIs are oblivious to the fact that they are VIs.

[Zachrulez]

Thinking a player is scum doesn't make their opinions worthless if they actually turn out to be town.

Your position is ridiculous.

The way you're just trying to cast off their power as unimportant to the town is a position I am having a hard time seeing coming from town.

[Zachrulez]

Your position is essentially that lynch candidates can't find scum.

Why is following Archaist/Monk any worse of an idea than following FD/Greymarble?

[Zachrulez]

I know you haven't followed them. You're also making it a point to make sure it's known you weren't.

How many scum do you think were on the Archaist wagon, and who do you think they are?

[Zachrulez]

I've already said

at least 1 of {hiplop, empking, earworm}

What makes me or FD exempt?

[Zachrulez]

Oh I meant to ask about Greymarble too, but he was off the vote count by the time the mod did one.

I'm assuming you have a town read there too since that was your response about me and FD.

[Zachrulez]

And actually, I like your earworm vote a lot better than your emp vote.

Unvote: Vote: Earworm

Looked at his iso and I don't like anything in the lead up to his L-1 vote.

ughh. Terrible vote Bgg. Are you going to actually do something useful today?

That reaction just causes me to twitch.

It's terrible because you moved from a wagon consisting of just yourself... to a wagon consisting of just yourself. It's like you're not even trying to get lynch done.

Relevant in a deadline situation, but not at the point the vote was made. That's trying to shut down a line of discussion on the basis that there isn't a main bandwagon on the target of it.

I'm still uneasy about you Twisted, because I think the masons can be quite useful and you're all over the place with stances, from Hiplop is scum I have meta, to your position on him now being a lot less clear. From voting Emp for his spot on the wagon to being supportive of his vote on Hiplop.

I do like that you actually defended your position vs trying to appease me by trying to find a way to backtrack from it though, even though I don't like the position itself.

[Zachrulez]

The "I want to give masons control of the lynch because its "pro-town" (but I actually don't want anyone with UNKNOWN alignment having to take any responsibility for any lynches and therefore make scumhunting impossible) Scumtell.

Oh hey, I didn't actually say that.

Cool story though.

[Zachrulez]

In fact by backing them on the matter, I'm quite directly taking responsibility, not avoiding it.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not entirely convinced that you're not threatened by the counter to your council influence that they represent either.

[Zachrulez]

You said you thought it was SCUMMY that Twisted would trust a lynch to people with unconfirmed alignments than confirmed alignments.

When THAT is very pro-town.

Because if the council of unconfirmed gets to control the lynch each day, scumhunting their alignment because a walk in the park based on flips and the like.


BUT

If we all just say "ok masons tell us who to kill" THEY take responsibility for the lynch, and THEY are already KNOWN to be town. So it a waste of a day. Day one. The most IMPORTANT day for scumhunting.

You might have a point from a semantical point of view, but there's a few things.

1. You're assuming that people's reasons for joining the wagon will be purely to sheep the masons.

2. That avoiding responsibility for the lynch is something undetectable as a scumtell.

3. Ignoring the fact that giving the claimed masons influence over the lynch is far more likely to result in a scumflip.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not entirely convinced that you're not threatened by the counter to your council influence that they represent either.

They influence shit.

They are masons, with confirmed town alignment. Doesn't mean I give a damn about their opinion, except NOW they are removed from the lynch pool and their motivation is known to be town.

If you're calling me scum here man up and do it.

Because saying I'm scum that's "threatened" by masons having control of the lynch, which I've already shown is in scum's best interest, is ludicrous.

Oh believe me, now that you've attacked me over this issue I believe there's a good chance you are scum.

Both of you have enough knowledge of my meta that I'm finding it hard to believe you are incapable of accurately reading me. (I'd prefer not to be lynched but my death in any form will demonstrate that I'm being genuine here.)

[Zachrulez]

1. You said "we're lynchin who the masons tell us to today" If that doesn't mean you want the votes to be "MASON SAID SO VOTE: X" then I JUST DONT KNOW SHIT DO I?

2. Are you this dense? If we all just VOTE WHO THE MASONS TELL US, how will you find out WHO is avoiding responsibility?

Yes, everyone will stop playing the game because of something I said. I was also partly interested in the reaction to the statement, but I do believe in it to an extent and I'm willing to do it myself, but (very important but) that doesn't mean I expect everyone else to sheep the masons without justifying their positions or doing any scum hunting whatsoever. To suggest that I was actually suggesting a gamestate where people didn't provide their own opinions or tried to influence opinion is something I can't fathom you actually believing I would do.

3. It actually, WON"T, not by all that much. The only thing masons do to increase a scumflip is SHRINK the goddamn lynchpool. Their scumdar is just a susceptible as any towns, and given their play today I trust myself far more than their scumdar.

I'll take their reads over yours given that yours have resulted in 2 mason claims and your other scum read is me. (And you wonder why I would be uneasy about you?)

[Zachrulez]

To suggest that I was actually suggesting a gamestate where people didn't provide their own opinions or tried to influence opinion is something I can't fathom you actually believing I would do.

I think you assume I know a lot more about your meta than I do. You were useless as scum, and your town games have all been with sotty in a hydra so I never payed or cared about your play. I am suggesting nothing, you PROPOSED such a fucking gamestate WITH YOUR OWN WORDS. You can't say I'm twisting or misrepresenting anything, its RIGHT THERE with your "lets just lynch who they say." Which, fuck all other scumhunting, would result in a END OF DAY FLIP of something chosen entirely by a player whos alignment is already known.

You're missing the fact that I didn't say fuck scumhunting. You're also missing the fact that my statement was as much for reactions as it was for the fact that lynching someone they find suspicious at the end of the day is probably a pretty good idea.

For you to say that it wouldn't result in anymore scumhunting, discussion, or responsibility for the lynch is a pretty ridiculous claim.

Your lack of meta knowledge on me is the only reason I don't have a strong scumread on you right now. If either of you had any recent experience, it would be ON, because I would expect you to know better then. Unfamiliarity with my town meta opens the possibility that you don't.

I'll take their reads over yours given that yours have resulted in 2 mason claims and your other scum read is me. (And you wonder why I would be uneasy about you?)

If you genuinely think being wrong D1 is a scumtell then I'm even less interested in learning your meta, because it is apparently much worse than I gave you credit for.

If you honestly think I shouldn't be uneasy that I'm one of your scumreads and they

were

, you're a far worse player than I gave you credit for.

Also, and here's something that does interest me, what ever happened to your Hiplop scumread?

UH OH. WAS THAT EARLY GAME DISTANCING?

Explained it here

Btw, if I was scum with hiplop hypothetically, I wouldn't unvote him, ever, except to change my vote in a deadline situation. I'm positive you know how I bus as scum.

[Zachrulez]

Oh right, READS change.

Remember that?

Apparently that only applies to you.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not interested in your meta, if you KNOW your meta than you can manipulate it to your advantage.

ALSO remember hiplop saying "don't tunnel on the council, Fate"? I could see him being uneasy that I had placed a scum in the council (you) and wanted to try and get points for saying there could be scum in the council at the start later on.

I saw your explanation, it was bullshit. META

If you honestly think I shouldn't be uneasy that I'm one of your scumreads and they were, you're a far worse player than I gave you credit for.

We can ad hom back and forth, but once you flip scum I'll get the last laugh. /grin

You won't be laughing when I flip... unless you're scum, because I'm not flipping scum.

If Hiplop is scum, I'll take the 1 for 1 trade and then I can better vet my blacklist to make sure Fate doesn't sneak in on it under a hydra account again.

[Zachrulez]

YOU'RE ALREADY ON MY BLACKLIST.

I just hate playing with you, and had I known you were in this game, I wouldn't have joined it.

[Zachrulez]

/in before accusation of zach trying to get towncred.

I'm willing to move to a hiplop wagon, but not before bob weighs in. (Or Monk and Archaist for that matter.)

BTW, if I was truly planning to sheep the masons or promote that game state, I would have waited for them to tell me who to vote, obviously I find value in scumhunting and discussion.

(I do also reserve the right to vote with them if their reads agree with mine.)

[Zachrulez]

YOU'RE ALREADY ON MY BLACKLIST.

I just hate playing with you, and had I known you were in this game, I wouldn't have joined it.

CRY MOAR SCUM

NO YOU.

MAYBE IF I POST LIKE YOU MORE YOU'LL GET THE IDEA.

CAPS FOR NO REASON YAY.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, seriously, I've had to stop myself from posting something unflattering at least twice now.

I'm putting FD on ignore before this gets really ugly.

[Zachrulez]

I'm putting FD on ignore before this gets really ugly.

dude, is there seriously an ignore function on this forum?

anyways, I'm seeing this zach reaction as a frustrated town one.

No there's not, and it's impractical for this game.

I've considered replacement, and that may be the only solution here.

[Zachrulez]

DAMN GUYS LET ME POST

I still have that slight townread on hiplop, but I see the bussing you're talking about.

Zach is over-defending himself though. I'm trying to understand his stance right now on hiplop. You say you're willing to lynch him, but at the same time it looks like you've got a problem with the wagon on him.

I'm more comfortable with a Zach lynch (if he isn't teamed up with hiplop), but I'd like to hear hiplop's reaction to all this.
VOTE: hiplop

If bussing is the only reason you suspect me, the case falls apart once you say you think Hiplop is town.

Don't fuckin call this a case when it doesn't have legs.

Fate's playstyle breeds defensive reactions. The problem with him is that he thinks they all come from scum.

[Zachrulez]

And Hiplop isn't my first lynch choice no. (Sorry, I missed answering that point before.)

[Zachrulez]

DAMN GUYS LET ME POST

I still have that slight townread on hiplop, but I see the bussing you're talking about.

Zach is over-defending himself though. I'm trying to understand his stance right now on hiplop. You say you're willing to lynch him, but at the same time it looks like you've got a problem with the wagon on him.

I'm more comfortable with a Zach lynch (if he isn't teamed up with hiplop), but I'd like to hear hiplop's reaction to all this.
VOTE: hiplop

HOW IS THIS GUY STILL ALIVE?!?

This post is terrible. Lets go through this.

1. slight town read on hiplop
2. Zach is overdefending
3. comfortable with a zach lynch
4. vote hiplop

WTF?

This makes no sense.

To be fair, FD did the same thing, making a case to why I'm scum and then voting for Hiplop "because I'm bussing him."

[Zachrulez]

And it made about as much sense coming from him too.

[Zachrulez]

Fucking hello? The case is based on the fact that they're scumbuddies. Is there much of a difference if I vote for hiplop over Zach? I'm going to place my vote where it counts. And I like the idea of pressuring hiplop.

You're calling the scumteam, which has a high margin for error, and you're using the word fact? You can't possibly be that confident.

[Zachrulez]

I had that desire long before FD was calling me scum, but you can think whatever you want.

[Zachrulez]

I would also consider it extremely dishonorable to replace out for alignment based reasons, but again you can think whatever you want.

[Zachrulez]

@ Zach -

Name the towniest three players, go!

Excluding the claimed Masons, Greymarble, Mikemike, and Empking.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, and I'm willing (and able) to hammer Hiplop so he should claim.

[Zachrulez]

If there's anything else you want to say Hiplop, you better say it now.

[Zachrulez]

Could somebody unvote him so I'm not worried about a hammer while I'm working?
I think this wagon sucks and don't want my case to come too late.

I will not hammer until you can weigh in.

Will note Spoon could have unvoted, but chose not to do so.

[Zachrulez]

I went and looked at the reasons people have for voting Hiplop and most of them are either not there at all or don't make sense.
FD thinks he's a Zachbuddy (despite IDUNKNOWMYASS towntell).
Empking wants to lynch him by association to TS. Actually I can kind of see this link.
Archaebob is voting him for no discernible reason.
Akira is like "I HAS SLIGHT TOWNREAD ON HIPLOP BUT WILL VOTE HIM FOR PRESSURE... AND NOW SUDDENLY I WANT HIM TO CLAIM AND DIE" (WTF).
Monk & TS actually give reasons I suppose.

Mostly what bothers me is how none of the first 4 actually pointed out anything that bothered them about his posting.
The associative tells that have been mentioned make sense to me, but reading Hiplop's ISO doesn't make me go WOO THIS GUY SCUM.

I actually want to see a Hiplop flip because of that.

That and I think he's a better lynch than he was simply because he's claimed VT, but I generally feel pretty strongly about lynching claimed vanillas as a general rule.

[Zachrulez]

Absolutely fascinating that the wagon on hiplop fell to 3 votes on the same page as his claim.

Unvote: Vote: Hiplop

[Zachrulez]

dude did you just hammer?

6 votes

Bob unvote

Your unvote

FD's unvote

that's 3.

Bob votes

I vote.

Yeah, that's not a hammer.

[Zachrulez]

Absolutely fascinating that the wagon on hiplop fell to 3 votes on the same page as his claim.

Unvote: Vote: Hiplop

Anything particularly fascinating about the number 3?

Nothing more than the fact that it's a much smaller number than 6.

[Zachrulez]

Do you find the shrinking of that wagon surprising in any way? And why do you connect it to the claim?

It's not that surprising, people let up on vanilla claims more often than they should. But there were 6 people that were happy enough with their vote on him to get a claim out of him, and some of those people suddenly don't want their votes on him anymore.

Scum have the benefit of knowing Hiplop's alignment, and if he's town, there is certainly motive for them to continue rolefishing if the town will allow them to. (If he's scum, the motive for unvoting is a bit more obvious and can be put down to the symptomatic phenomenon of wagons on a vanilla claim falling apart.)

[Zachrulez]

This meta is so strong you waited until after he claimed to bring it up?

[Zachrulez]

This post was pre-claim.

[Zachrulez]

You're saying the fact that he was giving directions to town for after his lynch shows he's town.

I'm linking the post to demonstrate that he did that before he claimed.

I'm also demonstrating that you showed no interest in that point until now.

[Zachrulez]

UNVOTE: Okay hiplop is town. That was some useful pressuring. For the record I never wanted to lynch hiplop, but I voted him to keep the heat on and see what happened at L-1.

hiplop, claim.

So your request for a claim is blatant role fishing.

[Zachrulez]

And as far as I can tell, your team analysis just appeared out of thin air, and you just arbitrarily picked who you wanted to lynch, and took people off the table for arbitrary reasons.

The only reason I can figure that you actually voted for me was because you had previously foreshadowed that vote.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Akira

Yup.

[Zachrulez]

As of right now the wagon is pretty much dead. He should have never been run up to a claim if people weren't actually serious about lynching him, but it's not worth it to me to lecture about that at this point. (It continues to happen in games even though I continually tell people why it's stupid.)

[Zachrulez]

So your request for a claim is blatant role fishing.

No. I was unsure on hiplop and wanted to see his reaction to being at L-1. Is that so unreasonable?

Do you expect me to answer your question? It's not a matter of what's reasonable, it's a matter of me not buying what you actually wanted out of that situation, and I've made it clear what I think you actually did want out of it because I directly accused you there.

And as far as I can tell, your team analysis just appeared out of thin air, and you just arbitrarily picked who you wanted to lynch, and took people off the table for arbitrary reasons.

The only reason I can figure that you actually voted for me was because you had previously foreshadowed that vote.

This is just infuriating. Where's your proof, Zach? You can't just say "he picked those teams randomly" without backing it up with

something

.

What exactly is so infuriating about it? You don't back up your reads or analysis with

anything.

So all I can do is

assume based on what I've read.

[Zachrulez]

I find both TwistedSpoon and Akira scummy.

Akira I have detailed my suspicions on recently. Spoon less recently, but a lot of my suspicion on him sources back to the point in time where he thought I hammered Hiplop, and me getting a ingeniousness feel to his reaction to that.

Re: Bob wanting more substance: I am not going to post text walls. It is counterintuitive to the style with which I play this game. I am also easy to read contrary to claims otherwise. If you're having a hard time reading me it's due to an unfamiliarity with my playstyle.

[Zachrulez]

Spoon, how can your town read on Marble weaken due to their activity falling off yet you find yourself with a stronger town read on the less active MikeMike?

[Zachrulez]

Marble?

He started off great.

I'm leaning town on him but I've been real dissapointed by his activity recently. He said monk was town at the start which I see as a townie thing (where did monk go?)

The italicized is what gave me the impression of a weakening read.

[Zachrulez]

MikeMike's vote switch in his ISO 15 looks out of place with his stated suspicions of Akira. What gets even more bizarre is the fact that he agrees with Earworm on a point he makes about Akira, and then votes for Earworm anyway.

MikeMike's posts have had a general non threatening, under the radar feel to them as well. I'm not sure why you would be reading him strongly town or objecting to the idea of pressuring him to be more active.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Mikemike778

[Zachrulez]

I have no intention of joining a wagon bgg is on

You've already stated that you have a town read on Mikemike so I don't know why you felt the need to add that.

[Zachrulez]

Out of the wagons that are out there now, I prefer a spoon lynch at this point.

Unvote: Vote: Twistedspoon.

Mikemike makes a couple of posts and the pressure deflates. I figure he'll keep up posting for a day or two and drop back into lurker territory. I wouldn't mind seeing him with the rope today either.

Akira I'm kinda torn on. He looks scummy to me, but specifically in the situation he was in there were a couple of things I would have expected Akira to do that would have been very easy for him to do opportunistically, and he didn't do those things, so I'm knocking him down my suspicions a little bit.

I don't really understand FD's town read on Akira, but their refusal to explain isn't something I want to lynch them for today considering the behavior of others at this point.

[Zachrulez]

I have no intention of moving my vote.

[Zachrulez]

^why not?

Much stronger preference for the bandwagon I'm on.

[Zachrulez]

eh might as well put some reads up

town

hiplop, masons = town
zach = town. Threatening to replace out makes me lose near-all respect for him as a player but it's a frustrated town tell
Bob, Mike = town. VCA after my flip. I'm sure of this
Earworm = scum. Just look at him on the hiplop wagon. That and he makes a perfect scum candidate

I'm 99.95% sure of those reads and would like you to consider them after my flip

Acting as if you are lynched already?

[Zachrulez]

rolefishing noted though

Really?

Says the guy who asked Akira to claim a page ago.

[Zachrulez]

Tommorow at 9 CST I believe.

I could do Mikemike, it's just a matter of the wagon not being there right now.

[Zachrulez]

let's do it

Unvote: Vote: Mike

[Zachrulez]

If you want to save yourself, it's going to be at Mike's expense.

What say you to that Spoon?

[Zachrulez]

If you want to save yourself, it's going to be at Mike's expense.

What say you to that Spoon?

I say that nothnakyou sir, I'd rather have a scumlynch that a player who I do not find particularly scummy

seriously, empking's play makes no sense

he never gives reasons and just unvoted on a whim when he realised my wagon wasn't going anywhere. If he honestly thought I was scum he'd be fighting for that like I am now for him

You're that sure of his alignment?

My mind, it is blown.

[Zachrulez]

@Grey

Tommorow at 9 CST I believe.

I'm NOT going for a mikemike lynch. Someone needs to make a case, because I see nothing here. Why is this guy scum?

vote akira

ISO 97. He fits the profile of a low activity player that I could easily see being scum. Him making a few posts doesn't convince me otherwise, and I think he can easily avoid getting lynched by posting just enough to beat pressure off of him. I think he's a great lynch because of that, and the points I made in that iso post.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't really known scum to push new bandwagons at deadline, they tend to like already established ones, so I'm not sure what BGG is trying to say.

[Zachrulez]

You mean the defense he posted way back about where he agreed with Earworm and then voted him? Yeah... that doesn't make any sense. He's trying to rationalize agreeing with someone he thinks is scummier than Akira yet finds him more suspicious than Akira? Yeah... uhhh, no.

[Zachrulez]

Just to show the scum motivation of a play like this, I'm going to take some meta from way back when where I did something similar.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p1735921

The situation is a little bit different, but I attacked a player and proceeded to defend him in the same breath, the scum motivation there was to appear to be reasonable while doing it as to not look like I was overly tunneled on him.

The more experienced players in the game rightly pointed it out and voted the shit out of me for it.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from.

[Zachrulez]

It was the next post, like literally right after the one I linked to.

[Zachrulez]

I defended darkstrike in the next post citing the WIFOM of the kills.

[Zachrulez]

Obviously you're not, you made that clear already.

But you're not even pretending to read the game at the same time.

The comparison is pretty easy to see. Hell, I've even admitted that it's not

exactly

the same situation. In that game I attacked someone and defended them at the same time. In this game, Mikemike is agreeing with a player he's attacking all the same. It's not the same as defending a player you're attacking admittedly, but the ultimate motivation is the same, the intent to appear reasonable.

Also, in order to hold your hand on it.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p1770690

Looks like the reasoning is a bit different than I remember in exact terms, but Has picks up on the fact that I am simultaneously agreeing with a player I am attacking.

I'm not sure why you would think I would go to this effort to try to conjure up a meta point out of thin air, when it makes more sense as a reason why I picked up on it and was suspicious of the action to begin with.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not even explaining it for your benefit, I'm only explaining it further now because you're is attacking me over the point so that people can see where I'm coming from. I noted the action and said why I found it suspicious without bringing up the meta behind why I found it suspicious. You want to make a big deal about how you don't see it that way and that you see Mikemike as town because you see it as a town playstyle of Mike's. You might think that, you might be full of it. Doesn't mean I see it that way or that I have to.

You've literally been all over the place. That alone is calling the kettle black in my position admittedly but the attack on FD was pretty ridiculous. Refusal to explain a town read in the context of where it happened was scummier than some of the other behavior in the game? If you really believed that, you wouldn't have done an about face and turned around your read there. I can't see what they supposedly did that changed your mind, and that's probably because there wasn't anything worth attacking them over in the first place.

880 also gives me all kinds of pause, mostly because of the way you tried to attribute the point I made as being all in one post that I linked to. I'm pretty sure you understand that context is in further reading, so I'm finding it hard to believe that you would have expected it all to be in one post. Really it sets off bells in my head that you're just looking more at how you can make me look bad rather than being interested in the context.

Also in line to your next point, which is where you classify me as a lurker, when I've made over 100 posts in this game... that's pretty ridiculous... unless of course you're going to try to argue that my content is lacking... to which I would argue concision is pro-town.

Preview Edit: Well Bob, as far as doing it to look better as a scum motive because scum wouldn't make the effort, well frankly I wouldn't. I don't really have a reputation as a strong scum player and I frequently get caught because

I don't put in a whole lot of effort as scum

and tend to freeze up as soon as someone turns any kind of suspicion my way.

Hell sitting on Spoon with the Akira counter wagon would be a hell of a lot easier than "making this all up."

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, bedtime. I'll be around tomorrow within about an hour before the deadline.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP:

Anyway, bedtime. I'll be around tomorrow

within

about an hour before the deadline.

[Zachrulez]

Hopefully someone else is on so that we can get a lynch within the next hour here. Hitting deadline without a lynch is a no lynch under the mod ruleset.

[Zachrulez]

Oh whoops, I read that as AM for some reason.

Ok yeah, still have a little bit of time.

[Zachrulez]

Though at this point, a claim is pretty much irrelevant.

[Zachrulez]

Also according to user statistics Mike was on late last night and didn't post in thread.

[Zachrulez]

Once you figure out what those last two posts are missing Mike, you'll understand why you've been wagoned to this point.

[Zachrulez]

That wagon, which was formed in about ten minutes, was a scum wagon?
Somebody explain to me how that worked.


As usual, I don't understand what FD's post is about.

UNVOTE: Archaebob
Let's not give him the opportunity to stop us from getting information day 2 by self-lynching.

Wut...

Vote: bgg1996

[Zachrulez]

I think Bob is scum too, but we can deal with that later.

[Zachrulez]

That wagon, which was formed in about ten minutes, was a scum wagon?
Somebody explain to me how that worked.


As usual, I don't understand what FD's post is about.

UNVOTE: Archaebob
Let's not give him the opportunity to stop us from getting information day 2 by self-lynching.

Wut...

Vote: bgg1996

How is this scummy?

You question one quick wagon, and are confident about the next one.

[Zachrulez]

One quick wagon is not like all others.
You may as well be saying "You question this wagon, and now you're on a wagon."

Explain what is different about the Bob wagon.

[Zachrulez]

lol commuter claim.

Spoon is scum.

I'm don't even think it's a whitelisted role but I'm going to check on that.

[Zachrulez]

Hider is whitelisted, but it's not quite the same thing as a commuter, in fact commuter is more powerful in that there's absolutely no risk in using the role like there is for a hider. It's also a much more cozy fake claim due to the fact that you don't have to claim any targets.

[Zachrulez]

Considering the role you've claimed Spoon, I'm frankly finding it hard to believe that you're not actually more suspicious of Bob, since it seems pretty problematic for a doctor and a commuter to exist together in a game of this size.

[Zachrulez]

pretty problematic for a doctor and a commuter to exist together in a game of this size.

Why?

It's basically what FD touched on already. It's multiple factors against a scum kill. The drawbacks Twisted is stating about it blocking investigations is pretty much junk unless you want to believe that there's more than 4 power roles in the game, and again that leads to his position on Bob not making sense.

[Zachrulez]

commuters and doc are different

that was all i was saying

anyways, zach. Why not hammer? I've claimed and have nothing else to say except that earworm, bgg and akira deserve looking into very deeply and I'm super confident the scum lie in there

Why not hammer? That's a question you're supposed to answer.

[Zachrulez]

@ Zach -

Are you bothered at all by the contradiction I pointed out in FD's posts?

The one about who you should have protected?

I'm not sure how much any of that means to be honest.

I don't an issue with your claim as far as

what action

you claimed. Archaist is who I would have protected as a doctor in this game.

[Zachrulez]

I'm in the same wagon as archaebob here

I must admit I was wrong about 2 things at least
1) mikemike
2) earworm

yeah, I'm pretty confident both scum were off of the mikemike wagon

Vote Count 1.18

mikemike778 (7)- monk, Empking, Zachrulez, hiplop, Greymarble, Final Destination, earworm
Akira (4)- Archaist, mikemike778, bgg1996, archaebob
Twistedspoon (1)- Akira

Yeah, the scum are akira and bgg

I thought they were town because I thought mike was town, But now it's obvious that they're scum

archaebob is in the same boat as me and I know I'm town. Heck, even marble knew I was town and He's confirmed

VOTE: Akira

Explain this post. I can't remember you ever thinking they were town on d1.

[Zachrulez]

And yet you assume scum didn't bus?

[Zachrulez]

anyways, I've already said I can't be bothered defending myself and already welcome my flip as then you'll see my suspicions have a townie basis

hammer whenever. I'm surprised you haven't done so since you don't believe my claim and think I'm scum

Perhaps because I am thinking things over and considering other possibilities.

What I want from you is to show me any kind of interest in a town wincon. What you've showed me instead is a defeatist attitude where you seem more interested in your own fate than in anything else that's happened in the game. Oh, and called for me to hammer you multiple times, which is tempting me even more to do it.

[Zachrulez]

Which three are confirmed town?

[Zachrulez]

Looked through the normal archives, and commuter appears 3 times.

Mini 52
Mini 749
Mini 865

All games were prior to the redefinition of the normal parameters. This means the chances of Spoon actually being town are extremely low.

I already found his play scummy, and despite how he's characterizing the wagon on him today, it's not

all

because of the mikemike flip. He had a wagon on him yesterday and there were reasons given. You can look at my own iso 94, 99, 103, 104, and 108. (which is about mikemike, but would have been scummy regardless of mike's alignment.)

The claim itself though was the holdup. It's lack of existence on the normal whitelist and it's complete lack of existence since the definition of the normal roles is the straw that breaks the back here.

Unvote: Vote: Twistedspoon

[Zachrulez]

Bah, go town!

[Zachrulez]

Good win town.